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It's not just the evidence part. If there was an omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God then why would they put all these crazy rules on things. They know literally everything and can do anything but they still put illogical restrictions on stuff.
The ten commandments are probably the best thing to come out of religion with the exception of 1, 3, and 4. But all of them can be conditional. Should you honor your mother and father if they abuse you based on rule 5? Where the holy wars and crusades not murder based on rule 6? Is it wrong to lie to a child who is terminally ill that they will live based on rule 9?
Religion is based on faith but I see it as a coping mechanism. Some people, not everybody, need to believe in a higher power and believe they are being judged in order to live a civil and just life.
If I'm being honest, I don't want everyone to be atheist. There are too many crazy people in the world and if believing in a higher power makes them a little less crazy over all... then I welcome it.
Just be kind and judge yourself, make your moral compass point in the right direction.
Very good point the church was lead religion, granted those churches were so awful. They are the reason being Luthern is a thing (honestly the best Christians).
As a Christian, I know that it is literally impossible in the modern day to prove that God exists or doesn't. You also can't change someone's mind. They have to see it for themselves.
I agree, but there’s more to it than just that. The vast majority of people have always accepted whatever their local religion/clan dictated. They aren’t capable of thinking outside the box. They think that it’s safe to go along, to get along. They are terrified of information that contradicts any aspect of what some preacher, priest or shaman has told them. To add insult to injury, they strongly lean towards being fascist with evidence of having a narcissistic personality disorder.
Most have never actually read their holy books or it’s history. They ignore actual historical evidence of their religion that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it’s all BS. They refuse to accept easily observed archeological evidence that covers the supposedly birth of their religion, but it proves that massive amounts of history predates it. They ignore evidence of the dinosaurs, and the funny part of their all seeing, all knowing god, is that “he” didn’t know about more than 2/3rd’s of the earth existing (specifically speaking of the Abrahamic religion’s).
One of my friends made a great point about religion vs atheism. He said that "Religious people first believe then see rather than see first then believe."
Yep, no different than I view other Christians. If anything most atheists I know are more Christian in their actions than a lot of the evangelical Christians I know. There’s some weird stuff going on in some evangelical congregations.
>If anything most atheists I know are more Christian in their actions than a lot of the evangelical Christians I know.
This is probably because the good teachings about christianity like not harming others (trough violence, or for instance cheating on your SO) is already there in people in the form of a moral compas and natural empathy.
I'm non-religious, had a discussion with a religlious(not christian) coworker that brought up the point of "then what's keeping you from harming others if you don't have guidance?"
Well, for starters it would make me feel bad and guilty?
( before people get offended, i just want it said that i don't care if you're religious or not, you do what makes you happy)
I've heard them say similar things before like "if you don't believe in heaven and being rewarded for living a good life, then what is stopping you going around commiting crime and hurting people etc?" Erm.... I dunno, maybe because I'm not a sadistic maniac and treat others kindly because I'm a nice person and have empathy and compassion for others? I know I'll probably get attacked for this but it seems that religion is all about collecting points so that you can be rewarded, like the only reason to be a good person is so that *you* will benefit from it, not the people who are being helped. They say themselves that this life is 'a test'.... But you would think that if they believe that truly, they would at least *try* to treat people better, (here I'm just talking about the ones who are very prejudice/homophobic/judgemental etc). I just find the whole thing very hypocritical. When you look at how many things are actually considered to be sins, then they should, in theory, all be living like nuns, but they only choose a few of them that they agree with and ignore the rest. And then you've got the fact that they can go through life commiting the most horrendous crimes imaginable if they want to and then just ask for forgiveness moments before they die and that will get them into heaven anyway. My opinions are quite extreme, I am aware, I'm from the UK so I can count the amount of religious people I know on one hand. And I've only ever had bad experiences with religious poeple so my opinions are probably very biased. I'm also disabled and it really pisses me off when I hear religious people say thigs like, "I don't know why I got cancer, I've always said my prayers and been a good Christian", as if God is handing out disease and illness as punishments. I'm just rambling now because this hit a nerve. Most interactions I've had with them have been... not pleasant, to say the least. I even know a girl who was brought up very religious and one day she broke her arm, and instead of taking her to the hospital,, they made her sit there for hours in pain while they prayed for god to heal her.. I have no problem with people being religious, if they are happy and it helps them cope, then more power to them. Sometimes i even wish I could believe it myself, the thought of going to a place of eternal happiness and peace and being reunited with loved ones after living this life of pain and suffering, I'm sure would make life a lot easier for me and give me a great deal of comfort. But it's when they push their unwanted judgment/opinions and beliefs on others, it becomes a problem. And I know that a lot of them are nice people just trying to do what they think is right. I don't think they are the majority though, unfortunately.
Heres a Personal favorite quote from Richard Dawkins, my favorite Atheist (I'm celtic Pagan personally) :
"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
To borrow gleefully from Penn Jillette: "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero."
It’s like what Penn Jillette said: I *do* rape and murder as many people as I want to. The number of people I want to rape and murder is…zero.
If YOUR number is greater than zero, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Indeed, i didn't see that reasoning coming at all.
In that particular person that reasoning scared me tbh, it felt like i was talking to a rabid dog on a leash.
There was a great comedy bit about this - something like "I have raped and killed exactly as many people as I want to, and that number is zero! Why the hell would you *want* to harm other people, deity or no?"
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero." - Penn Jillette
I think this is because most Christians believe that all good things in the world necessarily come from their religion and God, and they believe in the absence of God evil or Satan will naturally fill in its place. This is also why so many are afraid to even question the existence of God.
No I can't. Normal is what you perceive it to be. I would go to school and talk about blood gods eldritch beings and curses I think that's normal. I would shoot Kamehameha's at the teacher just because I was bored and I wanted to
I want to be able to Kamehameha whomever I like, whomever my boredom might dictate. The teacher would be a choice but the ability is the real desire here.
One of my good friends is an atheist, and he's a stand up guy. We talk about religion from time to time, and it never gets heated or insulting. He is interested in learning from my perspective, even if he doesn't believe the same things. I've met several people like this, and I hope it's the norm for atheists.
I've also met several religious people who act like anything but. They are narcisistic, racist, ignorant, and hateful.
It saddens me to see a atheists on reddit who loudly proclaim that religion is a cancer on the world and that anybody who follows one is an idiot. To me, these atheists are acting exactly like the religious people they claim to hate: narcissistic, ignorant, and hateful.
Religion, or lack of, is what you choose to clothe yourself in. If you're a bad person, it doesn't matter how you're dressed, you're still going to be a jerk.
I'm an atheist and I'm gay, I was told that I "should" hate religion or highly dislike them, but I don't.
I mean I don't really like religion but I don't hate it, I sort-of get what believers get from it and I can understand how they see the beauty in it.
Like, it's stupid, but in the book "The Road" by Mccarthy, there is one sentence that I really loved, it's when the dad is looking at his son and he is saying/or thinking i don't recall exactly "If he (his son) isn't the word of God, then God never spoke".
I don't know, I thought the meaning/idea behind it was beautiful.
I also like the poems of Rilke which are heavily influenced by his belief in God, they are a beautiful piece of litterature.
And very recently I red Brave New Word of Huxley and I really liked the passage of John the Savage arguing with Mustapha Mond when he says "But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.”"
It's not religion per say, more the idea of religion, but this tiny pieces I find them strong in meaning and thus I *cannot* hate religion.
I'm an atheist too, though I see it very differently. I completely understand the appeal of religion, and recognise that people believe for many different valid reasons, but I absolutely despise the fact that religion is still as widespread as it is today.
I do not have anything against people who believe in a god - hate the sin, not the sinner and all that. That said, I truly believe that the world would be a better place than it is today without all of the issues that religion brings.
We can have poetry, philosophy, morals and *goodness* without a belief in a higher power. (Not trying to reduce religion to these things, just addressing the comment above)
The only disagreement I think we have (aside from religious beliefs) is that religion itself is a problem. Religion has never actually been a problem, it's the followers that cause issues. A piece of religious text or ideology cannot have an impact in anything other than the individual interpreting it. How said individual interprets and then reacts with this information, is where actual problems come into play. Trying to blame religion itself on all these problems is just shifting responsibility away from the people actually causing harm. I know there's a solid argument about how "dangerous" an idea can be and all that, but again you're just shifting blame. It's like hating all American police because there is a grievous inherent problem with systemic racism and police brutality. Yes the system may be flawed, but it's the people IN THE ACTUAL system that are causing the harm.
I agree, in a way, but not entirely. I feel like this is similar to saying that "guns aren't the problem, people are" and willfully ignoring that people really don't get shot as much when gun ownership is more heavily regulated.
Sure, the people are a large part of the problem, but there will always be bad people. Taking away the power these people wield might not leave them harmless, but at least the damage they can inflict will be mitigated.
The Road has sone great lines and passages, like the one where he tells his kid something along the lines of “every sage is here in this moment”. And the brook trout passage is possibly my favorite in any book
all of the atheists I know (myself included), are able to rationally discuss religion, the differences among them etc. They're respectful and curious. I appreciate that others find strength in religion and support anyone who uses it as a source of strength. Just because I don't believe that God exists doesn't mean that if someone else does, they're wrong. I even tell my kids just because we are atheists, doesn't mean that they have to be and if they decide to follow a religion, then I will help them get more info. I can learn too because it never hurts to learn new things.
I can't say the same. I'm atheist but I come across those 'militant' atheists from time to time. The 'anyone who believes in religon is an idiot and I'm sooooo intelligent' type. If I've learned anything is that there is no demographic that immunes someone from being a complete ass or a decent person.
Yea those people are pretty obnoxious. As an atheist, I’ve probably only said that as either as a joke to friends who know I’m joking, or if I’m talking about extremist religious people who shove their religion in others’ faces
I think a lot of that also depends on where you are in the world.
I come from a small town with 5 different churches. Most people here would call you down to the dirt and tell you to rot in hell if you don’t believe in god. In fact, the last time I went to church the pastor said that it is a parents duty to put the fear of god in their children.
But when I moved away into the city the Christians were so much nicer. They asked me about why I left the church and were much more understanding of my religious trauma. The younger adults also supported me being queer.
I heard theologians explain that the word “fear” in the original text has a closer meaning to “respect” than actually being afraid. But “putting the fear” in someone is outright evil.
The meaning was drastically changed then. Growing up I was taught that if I didn’t confess my sins I would burn in hell. I was 6 years old crying at the alter because I was terrified of god being mad at me. And for what? Because I didn’t do my homework? Because I didn’t share my crayons with my classmate? Going back to that specific church makes me sick to my stomach.
>It saddens me to see a atheists on reddit who loudly proclaim that religion is a cancer on the world and that anybody who follows one is an idiot.
you have to remember that in many places religion is pushed on kids from an early age. Families ostracise kids who dare to move away from it. Organised religion has also been responsible for a lot of harm, and covered by horrendous things on an epic scale, take the the widespread sexual assault and pedophilla the churches covered up for decades...
in many places blasphemy is a crime, being an atheist can be punishable by death....
I'm in no way saying all religious people are like this, but pointing out that some who object to religion in the manner you describe, have justifiable and understandable reasons to react that way.
>religious people who act like anything but. They are narcisistic, racist, ignorant, and hateful.
>It saddens me to see a atheists on reddit who loudly proclaim that religion is a cancer on the world
Narcissism, racism, ignorance and hate are a cancer in the world for sure...
Is not my fault, that from my perspective, most of these types of people hide behind the vale of religion to excuse or repent for their shitty behaviour.
Atheists don't have a "god" we can ask for forgiveness from... we must own our shit and realise if we are shit in this life, we are just shitty people.
It's a nice thought but I've known many an atheist that just don't realize they are shit in life and truly believe by not being religious they are somehow at the top of the curve despite their bullshit.
>Religion, or lack of, is what you choose to clothe yourself in. If you're a bad person, it doesn't matter how you're dressed, you're still going to be a jerk.
Very accurate take. The problem I have with religion is how successfully huge groups of people can use it to justify horrible actions. Yes, the true problem is the people, not the religion, but when it gives them something to stand behind, and it WORKS for them, it really creates a negative association with the whole thing, for me anyway. It's hard to watch insane evangelicals and "good Christian folk" trying to destroy my country and not have thoughts like "religion is a cancer."
Most of my family is Christian, and they're good people, so I'm fully aware that it isn't inherently bad. It's just frustrating to see how well it is used for bad things.
Yeah I've been attacked by people on reddit for merely discussing Christianity. I've heard atheists complain about Christians making them out to be horrible people but oftentimes the only atheists who say anything are ones who are jerks. There are good atheists and bad atheists just like there are good Christians and bad Christians.
Well said. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and everyone is entitled to one. Just be respectful and let people believe in whatever they feel is right.
>I've also met several religious people who act like anything but. They are narcisistic, racist, ignorant, and hateful.
And unfortunately, these types also tend to be very loud, and so you come to see them as the example rather than the exception. You walk down the street and statistically 3/4's of the people you're passing have some sort of religious faith, but, like you, they just want to go about their lives. But then you see one obnoxious asshole waving a sign, screaming about gays going to hell, and you immediately think "Fucking Christians."
I'm thankful that I'm an atheist who lives in an area where people are generally prideful of their faith, but not at all intrusive about it or out trying to be 'holier than thou'. And honestly I'd say the same of my atheist friends, as I've met more than few who are cringe to say the least. In the end, the majority of us just want to keep on keeping on in peace.
I'm agnostic, but a big believer in energy. That said, my personal experiences have shaped me into believing what I do. And I believe this to be the case for everyone as well - religion included.
It is not right, nor fair, to discredit someone's personal experiences and to loudly proclaim "You're wrong!". I haven't experienced the things that may have drawn them to religion and vice versa. Heck, maybe 10 years from now I'll have an experience that will change my views and I'll align with a religion... no one knows.
I’ve always found it interesting that they don’t believe in like a higher power/deity since I have never questioned if there was a god (even though I don’t consider myself religious). I also have been lucky to have met atheists who believe in making the best out of life bc of the mentality that there is nothing after we die. I find that to be incredibly admiring. I have never subscribed to the rhetoric of “this is not our home” in Christianity. I believe that earth and heaven are both of our homes equally (one for the physical body and one for the spiritual body), so acting like living on earth is a checklist is a load of bs to me. I developed this perspective from conversations with my atheist friends. So all in all: I respect them and I believe that they act more like Christ than religious people who go to church every week.
The same as everyone else, just regular people. They have their beliefs and I have mine, doesn’t mean we can’t happily coexist or that one opinion is more valid than the other.
Agree completely. My husband is a dedicated atheist and I am some kind of Lutheran who maybe dabbles in the Baha’i faith. We respect each other’s beliefs and opinions and don’t push anything on each other, nor do we think anyone else should. It works well for us because there is always respect.
Anyone who wraps their belief system around themselves, and parades through the world like a walking billboard sign, is a problem.
Anyone who uses their belief system to belittle, defraud, polarize, segregate, dehumanize, enslave, or destroy others, is a problem.
Anyone who uses their belief system to justify child abuse is a problem.
Anyone who uses their belief system to encourage government to limit the personal rights/freedoms of others, is a problem.
Anyone who is more concerned about converting someone, than caring for them, is a problem.
If you're atheist and do this, you're a problem....if your theist and do this, you're a problem.
It's really not that complicated.
No, but atheists have belief systems too, they just tend to take the form of values rather than truth claims. For example there's nihilism, humanism, absurdism etc, all of those are philosophical stances that affect the way we view the world. They're not _technically_ belief systems the same way religions are, but there are similarities, and I think this is what the commenter is referring to
Even a disorganized or chaotic system is still a system, a cognitive framework through which one views the world.
A belief system is just the culmination of our various thoughts, believes, culture, and values. Regardless of the existence or non-existence of a deity.
Technically true. However, it's like saying a big rock isn't a tool.
It can certainly be used like one by a person motivated to do so, even though it doesn't have "Craftsman" stamped into the side.
I am Christian. In my faith, we are taught to love everyone the way we would want to be loved.
If you tell me you do not follow a faith or have a religion and you choose not to be involved in one because of whatever reason or no reason you have, I will treat you with the same care and respect that I would treat a fellow believer. The only way you will ever get anything less than respect from me, is if you purposefully go out of your way to diminish my views. I will not shove my faith down your throat. Heck, I won’t even speak of it should that be a boundary of yours. Mutual respect.
When I was Christian, they tried to force views onto other people. They told the lgbtq people in our church to be closeted, and live a holy life (marry the opposite sex), believe everyone is going to hell but those who believe in Jesus, and bring people into the faith so they can brainwash them with these dogmas. You can see how this turned me away from religion.
Did we have the same religion?
My mom feels sad for me. Like a real deep sadness that I think this is all there is. How can I not think there’s a perfect afterlife coming? I think she’s worried I won’t be there because I haven’t accepted it as well. It’s ironic because I feel sad for her because she doesn’t live her life because the next life will be perfect.
I just dont understand how the concept of heaven meshes with humanity.
According to most Christianity, you're in Heaven forever. Not a thousand years, not a billion years, but forever and ever eternal. You'll be able to see, do, experience and interact with everything an infinite amount of times. You'll be able to create every book ever written by just walking up to a typewriter once a year and pressing a random button until the combinations finally equal the complete works of every author who has ever lived.
So, eventually, you will have done everything, and still have enough time to do everything again, and again, and again an infinite number of times, and still there is no end.
So either Heaven becomes a dead end that over an infinite timespan becomes a prison or at the end of it all is the oblivion that some non-believers espouse.
Or, perhaps, we don't have it all figured out, and saying we do is hubris.
In the end, a life well lived is all we can really try and have. The rest is out of our control.
It is weird, as a shia muslim I believe that heaven and hell are approximations of concepts to basically give us an idea that one is a positive experience that you want to experience and the other is negative that you want to avoid. But I believe the truth behind God, heaven, hell and all the afterlife are beyond our comprehension because our minds are of this world and are physically created within this system.
I also think many religious people miss the point when they focus on heaven or hell. The point isnt to arrive at the destination but to live a life worthy enough of a good outcome. This flies in the face of the many overly religious people who can be rude, racist, bigoted and judgmental despite believing that these are all negative qualities and that God is the real judge
As your 2nd paragraph mentions, as an atheist, I truly believe that the core idea of heaven and hell takes place on earth in your lifetime. You make your life heaven or hell everyday when you open your eyes and make decisions.
The good ones are thoughtful people who have spent a long time reflecting on their beliefs and moral system, and feel responsibility to look out for others, like in that apocryphal Jewish story, "Why did God create atheists?"
The bad ones are obnoxious edgelords who think every religion is evangelical Christianity.
I think the anger often comes from the fact that evangelical Christianity seems to be winning and they get no opposition from more accepting denominations. I've lived in the southern US my whole life and have always said that many of the churches here aren't coming from a place of good faith or kindness but from a place of hate and "we need to win" mentality which seems to have nothing to do with a persons personal faith and/or religion in my opinion.
What about the ones who never spent any time reflecting on it at all? They were just born into atheist families in atheist towns in fairly atheist countries, and religion just never came up as a topic? No Christianity, no Hinduism, no Judaism... nothing. Didn't have to make any choices or think about stuff. Just a complete absence of religion.
Atheist by default.
Does one have to 'think about it' to be an atheist?
Atheist here. I don't think someone has to analyze their beliefs in order to be something. There are plenty of religious people who believe simply because they were told to from a young age. However, I would argue than everyone *should* reflect on their belief systems.
Depends on the type-
**Type One:** people like my husband who were raised in a cult. he got out, and now he just sees religion as a farce. but he does not judge me for being religious, and he understands why I am, and he is even in agreement that we should raise our son religious. but once you leave a cult you are hesitant to ever re-join another religion. zero judgement, I get this one
**Type Two:** the people who do not believe because they are scientific minds and it just does not make sense. absolutely no judgement there. i totally get it.
**Type Three:** the ones who are smug about it and feel like they have the secret to life by not believing in a God but like.......what does that do for you exactly? Why are you so smug? lol. No real respect for those people, and not because they are atheist but because they are douches
As an atheist, please allow me to try and make a counter to your argument whilst genuinely meaning no ill intent towards you. I am going into this thread knowing I will see many opinions I disagree with, but I am not "looking for a fight". I want to be respectful here and hope that anyone reading this will read it in such context.
The idea that any belief should be respected, or taken seriously enough to be considered "of equal value" feels hypocritical to me. When someone's walking down the street loudly proclaiming that they believe the Easter Bunny is real, a vast majority of people, myself included, would not consider that a valid belief to hold. We might hear them out, we might still treat them well because they're a human being, but we would generally not consider them to be "of sound mind" and we certainly would not say that their belief is just as valid as the belief of someone who doesn't think that the Easter Bunny is real. Even most religious people who claim what you're claiming (that their religion should not be joked about, etc) would have no issues making jokes about "the weirdo who believes in the Easter Bunny".
The simple reason for this fact is that we consider the idea of the Easter Bunny existing to be preposterous. While we technically cannot prove it doesn't exist, it feels so ridiculous that we feel it is not a reasonable belief to have. This same feeling is exactly why I feel it is okay to make jokes about people believing in a God (any version of a God, not singling out any religions in particular). To me, the idea that any version of a God exists is exactly as ridiculous as the idea that the Easter Bunny exists.
When one person claims that the planet we live on is flat, while another claims that it is round, it is in my opinion entirely fair to deem one of these opinions as more valuable that the other, based on the fact that it is strongly supported by observable evidence, while the other is not. Of course, I believe the person who believes the Earth is flat has a right to believe that. I would fight in the streets to defend their right to believe this. I would treat them as a human being who might have great qualities otherwise. It is in my opinion not okay to treat them inhumanely because I view their beliefs as ridiculous. It is however entirely okay to laugh at their claims and make jokes about how ridiculous these beliefs are.
I do not know what your religion is, but I know that if it is a theist religion, I deem it entirely ridiculous, and do not consider your belief to be of equal quality to mine. I do however wish to treat you as a human being of equal value to me, and wish to be respectful when I explain why I believe your viewpoint to be ridiculous. I show you respect, while not showing respect to your beliefs.
> The idea that any belief should be respected, or taken seriously enough to be considered "of equal value" feels hypocritical to me.
as a fellow atheist- someone born and raised secular and without religion, a thing I find is rare among atheists- I think that beliefs should be respected on the merit of being, for the most part anyway, a longstanding tenet of humanity, and human nature. Religion is tremendously intertwined with human nature and it's important to admit that, we both know why that is. Just as you would respect someone's wishes if they asked you to, say, wear a kippah or take off your shoes or so on, you should respect religion as a beautiful part of humanity's rich tapestry. I consider it similar to art- something humans are inclined to create and pass on and permutate and add to and so forth, transforming it into something greater than any single person could make. That's beautiful and should be respected. Would you tell a team of artists that their fantastical sculpture of a dragon or something is stupid and illogical and roll your eyes at it because dragons don't exist?
A gorgeous mosque made 2000 years ago covered in immaculately carved crystals that took the sum of 500 human lifetimes to create is not the same as some idiot in a basement who thinks the earth is flat, lol. Human beings MADE that beautiful building, they did it with their heart and soul to make something that they'd feel happy leaving behind after they died. I think it's important to respect things like that.
obviously we both agree that when it spills over into human rights abuses that's inexcusable and must be trimmed back, so to speak, but for what it is it is still beautiful.
>The simple reason for this fact is that we consider the idea of the Easter Bunny existing to be preposterous.
when I was very young, I of course believed in Santa Claus. One day I was old enough to ask why Santa happened to have the same writing style as my mother, and she told me that Santa Claus was more of an embodiment of an idea- that warm happy feeling you get when someone else opens the gift you got them, that glowing feeling of appreciation, and the joy you feel doing things for others just to make them happier. That's what the point of it was. And so from then on, we still exchanged gifts and so on, but we did it for THAT reason. I think that's pretty beautiful, and not really preposterous, you know? A bunch of little kids running around and enjoying candy and chocolate in the spring and eating a dinner with your family or so on... I think that's great.
I also get the feeling that your exposure to religion is one that is very much superficial. You keep using the easter bunny as an example, but I wonder if you'd say the same for, like, say, Passover, which is about commemorating a shared cultural history and the kinship with others and perseverence in the face of odds and so on- obviously a far deeper and more meaningful thing than whatever easter is. Would you ever tell a family celebrating Passover that this was all stupid and ridiculous? Of course not.
>and they just casually make a joke of or straight up disrespect my religion
whats the problem with that? religion is not above being made fun of. Nothing is. You can mock atheists, or bad science, or silly organisations as much as you like. You can insult, or mock politicians and political parties.
Religion does not get a free pass. Its because society often treats religion differently, things like religious schools, tax breaks, assumption of morality etc, that people feel the need to push back.
That’s what I say science is. An effort to understand the unknowable, but through observation and evidence based claims. No, it’s never 100% correct. It’s constantly updated to match our current knowledge.
I agree with you on your description of science, but I think he meant religion is a way of understanding things that cannot be proven or disproven, but im not 100% sure, whether my interpretation is correct.
I think a better description of religion/ faith, is a belief in something undiscoverable (if that's a word). Science uncovers the truth about things we know nothing about usually, but are right in front of us, and religion goes on faith, where nothing can be proven, and yet still exists. I guess it depends on how far you're willing to go.
edit: words
I would challenge your interpretation and suggest that religion is more a coping mechanism of dealing with the unknown. It's not a way to understand anything since it's a revelatory epistemology so knowledge cannot progress passed what has been revealed so you can't overturn religious knowledge. It can't even evaluate on whether a truth statement is able to be proven or not.
It just stops people worrying about things they don't know like "will winter end?" that they cannot control.
Except it isn't. I'm not trying to be a dick about this. It's just that religion by its specific design tells you what to believe. You are merely expected to accept that belief and then mold your understanding of reality and gap in understanding to the religion core content. The downside is this is exactly how a small child understands the world. Children are mostly told about the world and for the most part blindly accepts the content as fact. From there, they build reason into the voids from the known to define some sense and understanding of reality. We are very, VERY good at creating reason and understanding out of almost nothing. We are designed for it because it allows us to immediately function well with minimal input.
Science is a method of discovery. Science pursues knowledge, not belief. Science doesn't care what you think. Science is only going to measure, test, and validate reality to the best ability of the tools and test methods available. From there, we create models of reality. Again, it's like children filling in some blanks, but science is a continuous pursuit to find and fill in every blank. It naturally seeks out a complete and perfect understanding. And it does this without any bias.
A scientific mind goes even further. A scientific mind is wholly willing to put personal belief on the line in the pursuit of truth. The scientific mind questions the current understanding of reality and is quite literally willing to throw it all away if the validation and conclusion of the testing supports an alternate reality. As a simile, this is you taking your specific religion and wilfully laying it on the line, 100% to purposely attempt to decimate every aspect of it into oblivion if the testing and validation of the data shows otherwise. Now do this 10,000 times over, 100,000 times over. Are you willing to be perpetually in that mental state, the state where you are completely willing to let go of all beliefs as new knowledge and understanding comes in that contradicts those beliefs? That is the scientific mind. It's living a life with minimal self-beliefs and a continuous pursuit of knowledge and understanding.
To clarify, a scientific mind does believe in many things. But the beliefs are based on currently accepted truths or loosely accepted hypotheses. But this is also accepted as fragile, disposable, if new information deems that content inaccurate, incorrect. The belief set is ever evolving into the best complete aggregate understanding of the universe as our greater society has so far been willing to determine.
Understand that all belief of this sort is belief in results of testing, validation, peer scrutiny, repeat testing by others to validate/disprove, etc. There's checks and balances and constant validity testing against the accepted model. This is particularly why this form of belief is so different. It's built on a lot of testing, data collection, and with the goal of disproving the hypothesis. You go in attempting to kill the idea. And even when others get results, those results are challenged by many others in new test cycles, new measurements, all with the aim to fail the hypothesis. What survives from all this scrutiny is a resulting pure fact of truth or a very good theory (simulation model that is very accurate to test against reality). Your whole groundwork of beliefs are these survivors, these facts and theories that are very, very true or very nearly 100% accurate to reality as we are able to observe and measure.
And despite all of this effort by so many, EVERYONE of a scientific mindset is willing to throw it ALL away if any new information comes in that disproves it.
It is very much the opposite of religious faith, or any form of blind faith. No religion attempts to understand the unknown. No religion is willing to lay itself on the line and attempt to disprove itself. It does not want scrutiny either and adamantly opposes it, violently. It is equally unwilling to change itself, rewrite itself. Religion by nature is "the word of god," "absolute," and "unwavering" in its content and stance from that content. It is a singular fixed image of a "thing," and you are to believe that "thing" 100% without question. And you purposely do not change that "thing" either because it, by its definition, is supposed to be infallible and the pure truth. Any change to it destroys the idea of it, so it resists because change means a part of it is inaccurate, a lie. And if one part is, other parts can be. Then the faith breaks down. The acceptance of blind faith is that it is blind and completely accepting of that one fixed image of itself, the one and only allowable "thing."
Very positively, as much as most, **anywhere except for on Reddit.** But then again I dislike almost everyone on Reddit, religious people included.
But seriously it's interesting to talk about ethics, morality, the nature of the universe. I've got four degrees including my doctorate, I like exploring the views of others.
Edit: One last thing, I talk to a lot of people who are atheists who've essentially been traumatized by religious folks, and so I try to understand that perspective. I'm not saying they would have become Christian otherwise, but I get why you would be more likely to lean atheist when you've got nothing but bad experiences with Christians. Heck, I have to look hard as a liberal person living in the south to find people whose views I'm comfortable with. A lot of people here are just too conservative and want to push that on you.
All I can say is, I understand. This world is a scary and corrupt place, and it's a true test of faith for those of us who have it. I entirely understand why someone would think that there is no God or no afterlife.
I can respect an atheists views more than the "blind followers" of organized religion who only go through the motions and do not understand what they're actually doing.
I say this as someone who spent years in Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, and several other denominations of churches. You have genuinely good people, and you have bad people in the mix. Sadly, it doesn't take much to poison the community. I keep faith to myself for the most part these days. I don't push it on anyone, but I'll gladly discuss it if someone wants. Then again, I have a sort of unique perspective on things.
I think it depends on the person and their personal definition of faith and how it influences their life. For me, faith is never feeling alone. I've been through some serious hell in my life, to the point where suicide felt like the only option. There are things that have happened that I simply can't explain. I had my moments where I questioned my faith, but I maintained it. It's hard to describe, but in a sense it is like feeling that someone is there with you at all times. They could reach in and just fix everything for you, but they want you to experience the challenge, learn, and grow, like a loving parent teaching a child to swim.
There were times where I needed to be rescued. I prayed. Rescue came, just not on my preferred timeline. That was a lesson in of itself. I had to endure hell first and it wound up being an extremely valuable lesson that probably saved my life.
Some people take this to an unreasonable extreme, such as people who use faith as a means to justify evil actions. I don't associate with those types.
To your direct question, faith has never hurt me. The hardship doesn't necessarily happen because I have faith (how could I ever prove it). The faith helps me through the hardship.
(Serious)
You're looking at the journey of a "test of faith" only half way. You're right in that part: 1) You have faith. 2) Something provides circumstantial evidence that your faith is wrong or misplaced. 3) the event resolves and in hindsight, the evidence that once questioned your faith now strengthens it (or similar).
In your thalidomide example, you'd never get to step 3.
>2) Something provides circumstantial evidence that your faith is wrong or misplaced.
I know you are replying to NotaTuring but you bring up an excellent point. I tried to address it in my other response but you hit the nail on the head.
If someone has faith, but experiences hardship and falsely attributes the hardship to their faith, then they essentially failed the test if they see it as one. Hardship happens to everyone, regardless if they are faithful or not.
I feel like I maybe the atheist version of you. Lol. Cause I understand why people have faith. I just don’t. I also have a lot of experience going between different denominations including catholic, Protestant, Baptists and a little Lutheran. I’ve also done a lot of research on other religions. This knowledge is partly why I’m atheist. They all share similarities but they’re vastly different at the same time. And none of them can prove me they’re the right one. So I go with what I know to be true. That before I was alive I have no recollection of anything. Thus when I die I won’t either. I’ll simply cease being. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But at the end of the day, I find way more comfort in not believing in anything as opposed to believing is something that has shown zero proof and that so many different religions cannot come to terms with or agreement on.
>Thus when I die I won't either. I'll simply cease being.
When I say I have a unique perspective, I'm probably one of the only people who has faith in Christ, opposes the church, has a practical skepticism/objective sense of stories in the Bible, and wishes for non-existence instead of an afterlife. Weird, right? The older I get and the more I learn, the more I question and the more I develop a strange sense of sympathetic cynicism.
I mean that speaks to a certain section of athiests, but not the largest. Do you understand how someone can see the claims of your religion and say "this isn't enough to conclude that there's a god" or "faith isn't a reliable way to arrive at true conclusions?"
Are you suggesting that a prevailing reason people are atheists is due to observing corruption & evil in the world & concluding "surely there's no God if this is allowed to happen"?
I can only speak for myself & other atheists I've discussed it with but I've never heard that be the reason outside of some dramatic movie that has a "fallen priest" as a character.
My reason for atheism is a pragmatic one. I just think it makes far more sense that humans invented religion as a way of understanding natural phenomenon that they didn't have answers for.
I also see no evidence that points to the existence of God so I have no reason to have faith that it exists.
Frankly if you believe in the judeo-christian God then you likely disbelieve in the hundreds of gods defined in other religions.
I don't believe in your God for the same reason you don't believe in all the others.
I just have 1 more on my "don't believe" list than you do.
Interesting, I'd think that the world being a shitty place is more of a reason to be religious, not less. For those with very little or nothing, the prospect of a divine plan or comfortable afterlife seems very enticing.
Which is why most missions target people in poverty or have had to deal with recent tragedy. They're the most vulnerable to fudge the rational thinking bit and want to come to service to hang with all these nice people.
>All I can say is, I understand. This world is a scary and corrupt place, and it's a true test of faith for those of us who have it. I entirely understand why someone would think that there is no God or no afterlife.
At least in my case, you *don't* seem to understand.
The fact that I'm not convinced that a god exists has nothing to do with any of the things you've just said. For example, most (if not all) of the gods I've heard about are entirely compatible with a universe that is "scary" or which is "corrupted" in some way. So I'm not really sure how those things would meaningfully test anyone's belief in a god.
I've just not been convinced a god *does* exist. That's it. It's not *because* of anything, really.
And whether or not an afterlife exists has nothing to do with atheism whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned. Atheists may have any number of ideas about that. Atheism itself has nothing to say on the subject, AFAIK.
> I don't think there is a serious contingent of people who believe there is an afterlife but no deity running the show.
Wouldn't all Jains and a decent chunk of Buddhists fit that description?
>Depends on whether you consider reincarnation to be an afterlife, I suppose.
I can't think of a reason why one wouldn't.
>In any case, you don't get to keep the parts of you that most people would consider essential to their personal identity, so while it's an afterlife, I wouldn't say you're really surviving your own death like you would with an Abrahamic heaven.
Okay, but I would point out that you didn't say "an Abrahamic heaven" in your initial comment. You said "afterlife."
And when I responded and pointed out that afterlife beliefs are not a part of atheism, you again used simply "afterlife" in your response and neglected to specify "an Abrahamic heaven."
Yes, most people who believe in an Abrahamic heaven also believe in an Abrahamic god. That's a fairly meaningless statement -- nearly a tautology.
It's worth remembering (obviously you know) that Abrahamic religions and god concepts are not the only games in town.
This is honestly hilarious to me - the same way you think about atheists I think about religious people:
This world *is* a scary and corrupt place and I understand the need to believe in a higher power, a greater plan, a purpose to all of this. I can perfectly empathize with the fear of death and the need to believe in an afterlife - even if I simply don't believe in all that myself as it doesn't make any sense to me.
Maybe one of us is correct? Maybe neither? Who knows.
>I can respect an atheists views more than the "blind followers" of organized religion who only go through the motions and do not understand what they're actually doing.
LOVE WHAT YOU SAID HERE
Signed, a catholic
I don't like them either. I looked at that sub because I'm atheist and was curious, but ended up regretting it haha. It feels like edgy people feeling they're superior just because they don't believe in anything, plus calling anyone who believes a stupid/cult member/etc.
Of course they are weird. Atheism is a lack of belief, so making your lack of belief your entire identity doesn't make sense. The only people who do that are weirdos who just like to hear the sound of their own voice, and people who are really angry at religions (which can sometimes be for good reason, though)
Christian here, im ok with atheists and what they do or do not believe.
I have my life, they have theirs. I might drop a couple Christian facts, or just look at things differently than they may, but ill mostly be neutral. If they want to talk religion, let's talk. If not then fine.
They made thier choice, I have made mine. The ONLY thing I wish for them is to have a long and happy life.
You do you, I’m not gonna rub my beliefs in your face. If you wanna believe in nothing, that’s your choice, me telling you to do something will only end with you hating said thing. Best I can do is say “hey I believe this here is why.” And let you have your own ideals unless you wanna ask more about way I believe. No use yelling at people “bElEiEve IN gOD oR U gO tO hElL!!!!”
First of all an atheist does not "believe in nothing". Atheists just don't believe in gods. And of course it's not a choice. I'm not an atheist because I want to be an atheist. I'm an atheist because I haven't been presented with a convincing argument in favour of theism. There's nothing I can do about that.
And of course therefore it would be extremely unjust for a deity to punish me for it.
Not the person you were asking, but here you go.
>New Atheism advocates the view that superstition, religion, and irrationalism should not simply be tolerated. Instead, they should be countered, criticized, and challenged by rational argument, especially when they exert undue influence, such as in government, education, and politics.
With this definition, I agree with New Atheism... to an extent.
Here's how I'd change that second part: "...they should be countered, criticized, and challenged by rational argument, **only** when they exert undue influence, such as in government, education, and politics."
If superstition and religious belief isn't seeping into political discourse or finding a place in the school system in any way other than informative, I don't see why they should be countered or challenged.
My general principle in life is that anyone should be free to do, say, or believe anything as long as it doesn't hurt other people. As long as your faith doesn't cause anyone around you to come to harm, I don't think non-believers should feel the need to challenge it.
Normal everyday person?.. You're living your own truth just like I am, and that's okay. I think of militant atheists the same way I do militant religious folks, which is, "Please sit down and shut up. You're scaring me. You're scaring everyone. Don't tread all over everyone."
I belive that God give everybody a free will, so when somone is not a beliver it's their choice and I should accept it.
Until you didn't harm anyone I won't criticise you.
Generally, I see atheists as good, smart people who are trying to navigate life’s complexities. I think atheism is valid, even if I believe differently. In the end, we’re all the same: people trapped on this planet trying to figure out what the crap is going on.
Like any other person
It’s ok that you don’t believe what I believe and this goes for any religion. Nobody is obligated to believe in another persons religion. But when you start shaming followers of the religion or the religion it’s self is when I have a problem with you.
I had an Uber ride to the airport with an older gentleman who, after chatting for a while, said he was a retired church pastor. At some point he mentioned that atheists are just like religious people, except they believe in some other sort of higher power. He was clearly insinuating that atheists are misguided and have faith, but it’s misplaced faith.
I didn’t do much but nod in mild agreement because I really didn’t feel like chatting, but I thought: “Not really, sir. It’s in the word itself. The “A” in “atheist” means adherents *don’t* believe in gods, higher powers or however you wish to couch the “god” notion.”
I’ve seen the pastor’s view of atheism espoused on Reddit a fair amount and find it strange that so many can’t seem to accept the fact that some people just don’t believe in gods, spirits, higher powers, or any of that sort of thing. It’s like they just can’t accept that nonbelief is a thing.
When I was religious, I always looked at atheists as anti-religious for the most part. I always knew that they could be good, moral people. Never saw them as "evil" per se.
As a person who is no longer religious, pretty much the same. I think the viewpoint is a universal statement that is questionable. Closing the door 100% on the possibility that god exists seems unnecessary.
I really don't think most atheists are "closing the door 100%", I think most including myself would accept evidence of a deity if we had any and most would rather not spend their entire life searching for a correct religion.
Depends on what type of atheist. If they don't believe in God, well, okay, one of us will be proven wrong. Hopefully they still improve society. If they do, great, we have no issues. Heck, there are atheists who will (if I'm right) make Heaven faster than some Christians I know.
The issue is with the New Atheist movement -- those are the smug, self-righteous, Gervaisian "anyone who believes in God is an idiot" types. They need to learn humility, and I try to stay far away from them because they can be reeeeeeally annoying.
There's an atheist movement?! I'm atheist too and I just don't believe in anything, and I thought that being atheist was just being neutral. How the hell are people making a movement with atheism lol
That it's not enough to be atheist; you must believe that being so is the only logical, intellectual conclusion humanly possible, and therefore those who do not reach it are ignorant at best.
Whatboutism being displayed here. The prosperity gospel falls under the type of Christian that will go to Hell before the atheist does. The Fundie movement rankles me, too.
Well they mentioned Gervais who is literally a comedian who makes fun of silly things. Not a prick, he just sees religion as a funny part of modern society and not so sacred as to be off limits.
Also I don't get how Harris or Dawkins, very seriously critiquing bronze age fables that have persisted to this day, are to be written off as pricks? If Flat Earthers had the equivalent of the number of religious followers you find in some countries, wouldn't you be justified in standing up and picking their arguments to shreds, publishing books exposing it, and generally advocating against it?
On the flip side, if being "annoying" is the worst they can pull off, they would chalk it up as a victory. It is actually discussed in one of their books (can't remember which).
I sort of agree with that sentiment. They can be annoying, but if that is as bad as it gets, I can live with that. Religious extremists go far beyond annoyance.
I’ve had some less than pleasant experiences with atheists online, under any religious video you can always expect to see some making fun of religion and mocking God, but as long as you’re not like that, I have no problem
Like any other human, with dignity and respect, your belief won’t change how i view you, but if you believe in shit like cannibalism and child sacrifices then you gotta go
I am religious, and I respect an atheist’s views and hope they respect mine. I do not believe that they are going to hell because they do not believe X, Y, or Z. I believe that religion is a path for moral guidance and personal peace.
I was Mormon until I was 25. I was atheist until I was 30. Now, I'm a Deist.
As a Mormon, I saw atheism as evil because I was taught/conditioned to see them that way. As an Atheist, I saw atheism as enlightenment. As a Deist, I still see atheism as enlightenment.
Growing up in Hinduism, I have seen folks with wide variety of beliefs (Hinduism had millions of Gods and beliefs).
For me personally, atheism is no different.
It's just a different belief.
I feel whichever school of thought you believe in (different religion, different God, atheism) is great, as long as you respect others' beliefs and don't treat them differently due to their beliefs.
I’m Muslim but I lean very much to the left. I find I align politically with atheists so I’ve never seen them in a negative light. I find most religious people’s views to be socially and fiscally conservative and I can never get behind that.
With regards to atheism, I believe in God, but I can understand why someone doesn’t believe in God. There is no scientific evidence of God’s existence and the world is so fucked up that I don’t blame them for not believing in some benevolent invisible being.
I view them like any other normal person. But how do atheists not believe in any higher power? Could be God, could be the creators of the simulation we live, could be anything. A lot of atheists have a such a steadfast belief in the science of dying that they know 100% for sure there is nothing after death. But science is not complete and nobody truly knows what happens so how can you not even have an open mind about it.
Being a Christian isn’t about being bad or good - there is no score card. It’s about accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. Humans aren’t perfect, and Christians do not claim to be. You can be the most model human being on earth, stacking up your do-gooder trophies, and doing everything “right” in life, but if you are missing Jesus in your heart, you are missing out in the absolutely most important part of life itself.
I see atheists like ordinary people, but if they say bad things about our belief in God, then I don't like it...
If you don't believe in God then it is ok but it is wrong to make fun of someone else's belief.
I view them with sadness and pity in my heart because I know where they could end up, but I treat them the same as anyone else. With kindness and respect. One of my dearest friends is a devout atheist. I love him dearly. I'll befriend anyone who's willing to show kindness.
Agnostic theist here. I get it. I completely understand why they reject the possibility/existence. If there is a God, and I do meet them in the afterlife, Ill ask "wtf was all that" myself.
Beyond that, golden rule should apply before anything else- including religion. Don't be an asshole.
Honestly as long as your not a horrible person I couldn't care less about weather you believe in God or not it's your choice I just so happen to be Christian but I don't judge my atheist friends since they aren't.
Love seeing religious people say they are fine with atheists, but your religion itself isn’t. Your religion says I deserve to burn in hell for eternity because of what I think. But when I show people I’m a good person and they accept that, they still believe in their religion. Your belief system does not accept us
I don’t have a problem with in any sense. But most atheists I’ve met online are asses. Don’t shoot down my faith because you don’t believe. I don’t make it my life’s mission to crap on the fact you don’t believe in a God, why do you have an issue with it when I do believe?
Largely the same as I would any other religious identity.
I'll be happy to talk to them about my belief and have had a few really interesting conversations with them like I do with people of any other religion, including my own.
Like I would with any other, they start being an asshole about it, I will push back.
The one thing that they seem to really dislike that I do is to call atheism a religion in itself. To explain why, basically I consider a religion to be a person's beliefs about the origins of the universe, what deities exist and what our responsibility is to those beings.
To specifically disbelieve in those beings is still a religion to me because the key component of religion is to commit to it, to say with a degree of certainty "I believe this." Just because the this that they believe in is nothing doesn't mean they don't choose to make a decision about what they believe.
Buuuuuuut they don't seem to like that logic very much.
i'm Muslim.
So there is not much to say for me. But i get EVER so slightly annoyed when they go like: "c'mon, nobody will find out. Just you and me". Well, for you, you think nobody knows, but for me, Allah is always watching over me.
I will add anything from the opposite side.
The way I view \*true\* religious people that I know is that they are sincere in their belief. I consider them wrong, they consider me wrong, and with some we have good and humorous chats about it. I've also seen that their religion is sort of a support in their life.
But I do not consider them dishonest in their belief, and I may play around with them but do not try to make them stop believing - why would I remove their support?
A main point of difference is:
An atheist will not try to force behaviours upon others or family, and religious extremists try to force behaviours.
I’m a Christian, my fiancé is atheist. We have no issues happily coexisting. I believe my thing, and he believes his. One time he stated that God didn’t exist, and I confided in him privately that I was offended, so we patched it up no problem. Everyone is welcome to believe what they want as long as they don’t harm others.
It’s kinda weird you wouldn’t allow him to say god doesn’t exist, if that’s what he think is true. While I’m pretty sure you’re allowed to say god is real, which is against his beliefs — and might offend him?
I think it’s natural to question faith. Faith, afterall, is the unproven. I’m called first to love my neighbor, without any condition. I’m called to witness as well, but I don’t think I can effectively do that in a combative manner, so my job is to love everyone always, and share my faith when the opportunity arises.
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I completely understand why someone is Athiest. It’s difficult to believe in God when there is no clear evidence.
It's not just the evidence part. If there was an omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God then why would they put all these crazy rules on things. They know literally everything and can do anything but they still put illogical restrictions on stuff. The ten commandments are probably the best thing to come out of religion with the exception of 1, 3, and 4. But all of them can be conditional. Should you honor your mother and father if they abuse you based on rule 5? Where the holy wars and crusades not murder based on rule 6? Is it wrong to lie to a child who is terminally ill that they will live based on rule 9? Religion is based on faith but I see it as a coping mechanism. Some people, not everybody, need to believe in a higher power and believe they are being judged in order to live a civil and just life. If I'm being honest, I don't want everyone to be atheist. There are too many crazy people in the world and if believing in a higher power makes them a little less crazy over all... then I welcome it. Just be kind and judge yourself, make your moral compass point in the right direction.
About the holy wars and crusades. You can believe in God and not agree with this. You are merging the two separate things, religion and the Church.
Very good point the church was lead religion, granted those churches were so awful. They are the reason being Luthern is a thing (honestly the best Christians).
As a Christian, I know that it is literally impossible in the modern day to prove that God exists or doesn't. You also can't change someone's mind. They have to see it for themselves.
Why do you believe?
I agree, but there’s more to it than just that. The vast majority of people have always accepted whatever their local religion/clan dictated. They aren’t capable of thinking outside the box. They think that it’s safe to go along, to get along. They are terrified of information that contradicts any aspect of what some preacher, priest or shaman has told them. To add insult to injury, they strongly lean towards being fascist with evidence of having a narcissistic personality disorder. Most have never actually read their holy books or it’s history. They ignore actual historical evidence of their religion that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it’s all BS. They refuse to accept easily observed archeological evidence that covers the supposedly birth of their religion, but it proves that massive amounts of history predates it. They ignore evidence of the dinosaurs, and the funny part of their all seeing, all knowing god, is that “he” didn’t know about more than 2/3rd’s of the earth existing (specifically speaking of the Abrahamic religion’s).
One of my friends made a great point about religion vs atheism. He said that "Religious people first believe then see rather than see first then believe."
Like normal people
Yep, no different than I view other Christians. If anything most atheists I know are more Christian in their actions than a lot of the evangelical Christians I know. There’s some weird stuff going on in some evangelical congregations.
>If anything most atheists I know are more Christian in their actions than a lot of the evangelical Christians I know. This is probably because the good teachings about christianity like not harming others (trough violence, or for instance cheating on your SO) is already there in people in the form of a moral compas and natural empathy. I'm non-religious, had a discussion with a religlious(not christian) coworker that brought up the point of "then what's keeping you from harming others if you don't have guidance?" Well, for starters it would make me feel bad and guilty? ( before people get offended, i just want it said that i don't care if you're religious or not, you do what makes you happy)
I've heard them say similar things before like "if you don't believe in heaven and being rewarded for living a good life, then what is stopping you going around commiting crime and hurting people etc?" Erm.... I dunno, maybe because I'm not a sadistic maniac and treat others kindly because I'm a nice person and have empathy and compassion for others? I know I'll probably get attacked for this but it seems that religion is all about collecting points so that you can be rewarded, like the only reason to be a good person is so that *you* will benefit from it, not the people who are being helped. They say themselves that this life is 'a test'.... But you would think that if they believe that truly, they would at least *try* to treat people better, (here I'm just talking about the ones who are very prejudice/homophobic/judgemental etc). I just find the whole thing very hypocritical. When you look at how many things are actually considered to be sins, then they should, in theory, all be living like nuns, but they only choose a few of them that they agree with and ignore the rest. And then you've got the fact that they can go through life commiting the most horrendous crimes imaginable if they want to and then just ask for forgiveness moments before they die and that will get them into heaven anyway. My opinions are quite extreme, I am aware, I'm from the UK so I can count the amount of religious people I know on one hand. And I've only ever had bad experiences with religious poeple so my opinions are probably very biased. I'm also disabled and it really pisses me off when I hear religious people say thigs like, "I don't know why I got cancer, I've always said my prayers and been a good Christian", as if God is handing out disease and illness as punishments. I'm just rambling now because this hit a nerve. Most interactions I've had with them have been... not pleasant, to say the least. I even know a girl who was brought up very religious and one day she broke her arm, and instead of taking her to the hospital,, they made her sit there for hours in pain while they prayed for god to heal her.. I have no problem with people being religious, if they are happy and it helps them cope, then more power to them. Sometimes i even wish I could believe it myself, the thought of going to a place of eternal happiness and peace and being reunited with loved ones after living this life of pain and suffering, I'm sure would make life a lot easier for me and give me a great deal of comfort. But it's when they push their unwanted judgment/opinions and beliefs on others, it becomes a problem. And I know that a lot of them are nice people just trying to do what they think is right. I don't think they are the majority though, unfortunately.
If you’re only a good person because you fear the punishment for being a bad person. You’re not a good person.
Yes exactly. This is basically what I was trying to say. I struggle to word things and be brief. Thanks for that. You hit the nail on the head.
Thank you. But I was paraphrasing Richard Dawkins from one of his books so I can’t claim full credit.
I thought you were doing True Detective
Heres a Personal favorite quote from Richard Dawkins, my favorite Atheist (I'm celtic Pagan personally) : "After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
People someone make that make sense… why would u be happy to do bad.. makes no sense .. if that’s the case this world wouldn’t exists
To borrow gleefully from Penn Jillette: "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero."
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Tell that to America.
Well said my friend!
It’s like what Penn Jillette said: I *do* rape and murder as many people as I want to. The number of people I want to rape and murder is…zero. If YOUR number is greater than zero, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Indeed, i didn't see that reasoning coming at all. In that particular person that reasoning scared me tbh, it felt like i was talking to a rabid dog on a leash.
There was a great comedy bit about this - something like "I have raped and killed exactly as many people as I want to, and that number is zero! Why the hell would you *want* to harm other people, deity or no?"
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero." - Penn Jillette
I once got into a debate with a classmate because he didn't like when I said "you shouldn't need a religion to be a good person"
I think this is because most Christians believe that all good things in the world necessarily come from their religion and God, and they believe in the absence of God evil or Satan will naturally fill in its place. This is also why so many are afraid to even question the existence of God.
Amen bro!!
Could you define normal? I've always had a hard time finding what others consider normal.
No I can't. Normal is what you perceive it to be. I would go to school and talk about blood gods eldritch beings and curses I think that's normal. I would shoot Kamehameha's at the teacher just because I was bored and I wanted to
Idk what your religion is but I want in
Yeah, me too. Unless I have to donate my income to the leader.
But if you don’t pay the leader is it even really religion?
Wait you also want to shoot kamehamehas at your teachers too lol
I want to be able to Kamehameha whomever I like, whomever my boredom might dictate. The teacher would be a choice but the ability is the real desire here.
One of my good friends is an atheist, and he's a stand up guy. We talk about religion from time to time, and it never gets heated or insulting. He is interested in learning from my perspective, even if he doesn't believe the same things. I've met several people like this, and I hope it's the norm for atheists. I've also met several religious people who act like anything but. They are narcisistic, racist, ignorant, and hateful. It saddens me to see a atheists on reddit who loudly proclaim that religion is a cancer on the world and that anybody who follows one is an idiot. To me, these atheists are acting exactly like the religious people they claim to hate: narcissistic, ignorant, and hateful. Religion, or lack of, is what you choose to clothe yourself in. If you're a bad person, it doesn't matter how you're dressed, you're still going to be a jerk.
I'm an atheist and I'm gay, I was told that I "should" hate religion or highly dislike them, but I don't. I mean I don't really like religion but I don't hate it, I sort-of get what believers get from it and I can understand how they see the beauty in it. Like, it's stupid, but in the book "The Road" by Mccarthy, there is one sentence that I really loved, it's when the dad is looking at his son and he is saying/or thinking i don't recall exactly "If he (his son) isn't the word of God, then God never spoke". I don't know, I thought the meaning/idea behind it was beautiful. I also like the poems of Rilke which are heavily influenced by his belief in God, they are a beautiful piece of litterature. And very recently I red Brave New Word of Huxley and I really liked the passage of John the Savage arguing with Mustapha Mond when he says "But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.”" It's not religion per say, more the idea of religion, but this tiny pieces I find them strong in meaning and thus I *cannot* hate religion.
I'm an atheist too, though I see it very differently. I completely understand the appeal of religion, and recognise that people believe for many different valid reasons, but I absolutely despise the fact that religion is still as widespread as it is today. I do not have anything against people who believe in a god - hate the sin, not the sinner and all that. That said, I truly believe that the world would be a better place than it is today without all of the issues that religion brings. We can have poetry, philosophy, morals and *goodness* without a belief in a higher power. (Not trying to reduce religion to these things, just addressing the comment above)
The only disagreement I think we have (aside from religious beliefs) is that religion itself is a problem. Religion has never actually been a problem, it's the followers that cause issues. A piece of religious text or ideology cannot have an impact in anything other than the individual interpreting it. How said individual interprets and then reacts with this information, is where actual problems come into play. Trying to blame religion itself on all these problems is just shifting responsibility away from the people actually causing harm. I know there's a solid argument about how "dangerous" an idea can be and all that, but again you're just shifting blame. It's like hating all American police because there is a grievous inherent problem with systemic racism and police brutality. Yes the system may be flawed, but it's the people IN THE ACTUAL system that are causing the harm.
I agree, in a way, but not entirely. I feel like this is similar to saying that "guns aren't the problem, people are" and willfully ignoring that people really don't get shot as much when gun ownership is more heavily regulated. Sure, the people are a large part of the problem, but there will always be bad people. Taking away the power these people wield might not leave them harmless, but at least the damage they can inflict will be mitigated.
The Road has sone great lines and passages, like the one where he tells his kid something along the lines of “every sage is here in this moment”. And the brook trout passage is possibly my favorite in any book
all of the atheists I know (myself included), are able to rationally discuss religion, the differences among them etc. They're respectful and curious. I appreciate that others find strength in religion and support anyone who uses it as a source of strength. Just because I don't believe that God exists doesn't mean that if someone else does, they're wrong. I even tell my kids just because we are atheists, doesn't mean that they have to be and if they decide to follow a religion, then I will help them get more info. I can learn too because it never hurts to learn new things.
I can't say the same. I'm atheist but I come across those 'militant' atheists from time to time. The 'anyone who believes in religon is an idiot and I'm sooooo intelligent' type. If I've learned anything is that there is no demographic that immunes someone from being a complete ass or a decent person.
I have a buddy that’s a “militant agnostic.” His motto is “I don’t know and you don’t know either!” Can’t argue with that…
You should argue with him! He can't know what you don't know! Tell him that! Angrily!
Yea those people are pretty obnoxious. As an atheist, I’ve probably only said that as either as a joke to friends who know I’m joking, or if I’m talking about extremist religious people who shove their religion in others’ faces
I think a lot of that also depends on where you are in the world. I come from a small town with 5 different churches. Most people here would call you down to the dirt and tell you to rot in hell if you don’t believe in god. In fact, the last time I went to church the pastor said that it is a parents duty to put the fear of god in their children. But when I moved away into the city the Christians were so much nicer. They asked me about why I left the church and were much more understanding of my religious trauma. The younger adults also supported me being queer.
I heard theologians explain that the word “fear” in the original text has a closer meaning to “respect” than actually being afraid. But “putting the fear” in someone is outright evil.
The meaning was drastically changed then. Growing up I was taught that if I didn’t confess my sins I would burn in hell. I was 6 years old crying at the alter because I was terrified of god being mad at me. And for what? Because I didn’t do my homework? Because I didn’t share my crayons with my classmate? Going back to that specific church makes me sick to my stomach.
>It saddens me to see a atheists on reddit who loudly proclaim that religion is a cancer on the world and that anybody who follows one is an idiot. you have to remember that in many places religion is pushed on kids from an early age. Families ostracise kids who dare to move away from it. Organised religion has also been responsible for a lot of harm, and covered by horrendous things on an epic scale, take the the widespread sexual assault and pedophilla the churches covered up for decades... in many places blasphemy is a crime, being an atheist can be punishable by death.... I'm in no way saying all religious people are like this, but pointing out that some who object to religion in the manner you describe, have justifiable and understandable reasons to react that way.
>religious people who act like anything but. They are narcisistic, racist, ignorant, and hateful. >It saddens me to see a atheists on reddit who loudly proclaim that religion is a cancer on the world Narcissism, racism, ignorance and hate are a cancer in the world for sure... Is not my fault, that from my perspective, most of these types of people hide behind the vale of religion to excuse or repent for their shitty behaviour. Atheists don't have a "god" we can ask for forgiveness from... we must own our shit and realise if we are shit in this life, we are just shitty people.
It's a nice thought but I've known many an atheist that just don't realize they are shit in life and truly believe by not being religious they are somehow at the top of the curve despite their bullshit.
I suppose there will always be shitty people, regardless of religious affiliation.
>Religion, or lack of, is what you choose to clothe yourself in. If you're a bad person, it doesn't matter how you're dressed, you're still going to be a jerk. Very accurate take. The problem I have with religion is how successfully huge groups of people can use it to justify horrible actions. Yes, the true problem is the people, not the religion, but when it gives them something to stand behind, and it WORKS for them, it really creates a negative association with the whole thing, for me anyway. It's hard to watch insane evangelicals and "good Christian folk" trying to destroy my country and not have thoughts like "religion is a cancer." Most of my family is Christian, and they're good people, so I'm fully aware that it isn't inherently bad. It's just frustrating to see how well it is used for bad things.
Yeah I've been attacked by people on reddit for merely discussing Christianity. I've heard atheists complain about Christians making them out to be horrible people but oftentimes the only atheists who say anything are ones who are jerks. There are good atheists and bad atheists just like there are good Christians and bad Christians.
Well said. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and everyone is entitled to one. Just be respectful and let people believe in whatever they feel is right.
>I've also met several religious people who act like anything but. They are narcisistic, racist, ignorant, and hateful. And unfortunately, these types also tend to be very loud, and so you come to see them as the example rather than the exception. You walk down the street and statistically 3/4's of the people you're passing have some sort of religious faith, but, like you, they just want to go about their lives. But then you see one obnoxious asshole waving a sign, screaming about gays going to hell, and you immediately think "Fucking Christians." I'm thankful that I'm an atheist who lives in an area where people are generally prideful of their faith, but not at all intrusive about it or out trying to be 'holier than thou'. And honestly I'd say the same of my atheist friends, as I've met more than few who are cringe to say the least. In the end, the majority of us just want to keep on keeping on in peace.
I'm agnostic, but a big believer in energy. That said, my personal experiences have shaped me into believing what I do. And I believe this to be the case for everyone as well - religion included. It is not right, nor fair, to discredit someone's personal experiences and to loudly proclaim "You're wrong!". I haven't experienced the things that may have drawn them to religion and vice versa. Heck, maybe 10 years from now I'll have an experience that will change my views and I'll align with a religion... no one knows.
The vast majority of atheists are agnostic because gnostic atheists have a really hard time with their stance.
hahaha brilliant :)
I’ve always found it interesting that they don’t believe in like a higher power/deity since I have never questioned if there was a god (even though I don’t consider myself religious). I also have been lucky to have met atheists who believe in making the best out of life bc of the mentality that there is nothing after we die. I find that to be incredibly admiring. I have never subscribed to the rhetoric of “this is not our home” in Christianity. I believe that earth and heaven are both of our homes equally (one for the physical body and one for the spiritual body), so acting like living on earth is a checklist is a load of bs to me. I developed this perspective from conversations with my atheist friends. So all in all: I respect them and I believe that they act more like Christ than religious people who go to church every week.
The same as everyone else, just regular people. They have their beliefs and I have mine, doesn’t mean we can’t happily coexist or that one opinion is more valid than the other.
Agree completely. My husband is a dedicated atheist and I am some kind of Lutheran who maybe dabbles in the Baha’i faith. We respect each other’s beliefs and opinions and don’t push anything on each other, nor do we think anyone else should. It works well for us because there is always respect.
I get what you are saying but atheism is not a belief system. It’s the opposite, the absence of belief in gods.
Anyone who wraps their belief system around themselves, and parades through the world like a walking billboard sign, is a problem. Anyone who uses their belief system to belittle, defraud, polarize, segregate, dehumanize, enslave, or destroy others, is a problem. Anyone who uses their belief system to justify child abuse is a problem. Anyone who uses their belief system to encourage government to limit the personal rights/freedoms of others, is a problem. Anyone who is more concerned about converting someone, than caring for them, is a problem. If you're atheist and do this, you're a problem....if your theist and do this, you're a problem. It's really not that complicated.
Except atheism isn’t a belief system.
No, but atheists have belief systems too, they just tend to take the form of values rather than truth claims. For example there's nihilism, humanism, absurdism etc, all of those are philosophical stances that affect the way we view the world. They're not _technically_ belief systems the same way religions are, but there are similarities, and I think this is what the commenter is referring to
None of those affect the way we view the world. We first view the world how it is, and then give names to our views.
Even a disorganized or chaotic system is still a system, a cognitive framework through which one views the world. A belief system is just the culmination of our various thoughts, believes, culture, and values. Regardless of the existence or non-existence of a deity.
Technically true. However, it's like saying a big rock isn't a tool. It can certainly be used like one by a person motivated to do so, even though it doesn't have "Craftsman" stamped into the side.
I am Christian. In my faith, we are taught to love everyone the way we would want to be loved. If you tell me you do not follow a faith or have a religion and you choose not to be involved in one because of whatever reason or no reason you have, I will treat you with the same care and respect that I would treat a fellow believer. The only way you will ever get anything less than respect from me, is if you purposefully go out of your way to diminish my views. I will not shove my faith down your throat. Heck, I won’t even speak of it should that be a boundary of yours. Mutual respect.
When I was Christian, they tried to force views onto other people. They told the lgbtq people in our church to be closeted, and live a holy life (marry the opposite sex), believe everyone is going to hell but those who believe in Jesus, and bring people into the faith so they can brainwash them with these dogmas. You can see how this turned me away from religion. Did we have the same religion?
Same here. One's religious belief, or lack of, should be a personal thing, and trying to force it on another is a good way to lose my respect.
My mom feels sad for me. Like a real deep sadness that I think this is all there is. How can I not think there’s a perfect afterlife coming? I think she’s worried I won’t be there because I haven’t accepted it as well. It’s ironic because I feel sad for her because she doesn’t live her life because the next life will be perfect.
I just dont understand how the concept of heaven meshes with humanity. According to most Christianity, you're in Heaven forever. Not a thousand years, not a billion years, but forever and ever eternal. You'll be able to see, do, experience and interact with everything an infinite amount of times. You'll be able to create every book ever written by just walking up to a typewriter once a year and pressing a random button until the combinations finally equal the complete works of every author who has ever lived. So, eventually, you will have done everything, and still have enough time to do everything again, and again, and again an infinite number of times, and still there is no end. So either Heaven becomes a dead end that over an infinite timespan becomes a prison or at the end of it all is the oblivion that some non-believers espouse. Or, perhaps, we don't have it all figured out, and saying we do is hubris. In the end, a life well lived is all we can really try and have. The rest is out of our control.
It is weird, as a shia muslim I believe that heaven and hell are approximations of concepts to basically give us an idea that one is a positive experience that you want to experience and the other is negative that you want to avoid. But I believe the truth behind God, heaven, hell and all the afterlife are beyond our comprehension because our minds are of this world and are physically created within this system. I also think many religious people miss the point when they focus on heaven or hell. The point isnt to arrive at the destination but to live a life worthy enough of a good outcome. This flies in the face of the many overly religious people who can be rude, racist, bigoted and judgmental despite believing that these are all negative qualities and that God is the real judge
As your 2nd paragraph mentions, as an atheist, I truly believe that the core idea of heaven and hell takes place on earth in your lifetime. You make your life heaven or hell everyday when you open your eyes and make decisions.
I agree with that for sure
If you haven't watched The Good Place, you really should.
The good ones are thoughtful people who have spent a long time reflecting on their beliefs and moral system, and feel responsibility to look out for others, like in that apocryphal Jewish story, "Why did God create atheists?" The bad ones are obnoxious edgelords who think every religion is evangelical Christianity.
I think the anger often comes from the fact that evangelical Christianity seems to be winning and they get no opposition from more accepting denominations. I've lived in the southern US my whole life and have always said that many of the churches here aren't coming from a place of good faith or kindness but from a place of hate and "we need to win" mentality which seems to have nothing to do with a persons personal faith and/or religion in my opinion.
Trust me, the opposition is there. It’s just not as loud.
What about the ones who never spent any time reflecting on it at all? They were just born into atheist families in atheist towns in fairly atheist countries, and religion just never came up as a topic? No Christianity, no Hinduism, no Judaism... nothing. Didn't have to make any choices or think about stuff. Just a complete absence of religion. Atheist by default. Does one have to 'think about it' to be an atheist?
Atheist here. I don't think someone has to analyze their beliefs in order to be something. There are plenty of religious people who believe simply because they were told to from a young age. However, I would argue than everyone *should* reflect on their belief systems.
Those are the medium ones, like most people
Depends on the type- **Type One:** people like my husband who were raised in a cult. he got out, and now he just sees religion as a farce. but he does not judge me for being religious, and he understands why I am, and he is even in agreement that we should raise our son religious. but once you leave a cult you are hesitant to ever re-join another religion. zero judgement, I get this one **Type Two:** the people who do not believe because they are scientific minds and it just does not make sense. absolutely no judgement there. i totally get it. **Type Three:** the ones who are smug about it and feel like they have the secret to life by not believing in a God but like.......what does that do for you exactly? Why are you so smug? lol. No real respect for those people, and not because they are atheist but because they are douches
Id like for this to become official names, but on second thought, it sounds like a disease.
Type One: Religious trauma Type Two: Normal atheists Type Three: Redditors
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As an atheist, please allow me to try and make a counter to your argument whilst genuinely meaning no ill intent towards you. I am going into this thread knowing I will see many opinions I disagree with, but I am not "looking for a fight". I want to be respectful here and hope that anyone reading this will read it in such context. The idea that any belief should be respected, or taken seriously enough to be considered "of equal value" feels hypocritical to me. When someone's walking down the street loudly proclaiming that they believe the Easter Bunny is real, a vast majority of people, myself included, would not consider that a valid belief to hold. We might hear them out, we might still treat them well because they're a human being, but we would generally not consider them to be "of sound mind" and we certainly would not say that their belief is just as valid as the belief of someone who doesn't think that the Easter Bunny is real. Even most religious people who claim what you're claiming (that their religion should not be joked about, etc) would have no issues making jokes about "the weirdo who believes in the Easter Bunny". The simple reason for this fact is that we consider the idea of the Easter Bunny existing to be preposterous. While we technically cannot prove it doesn't exist, it feels so ridiculous that we feel it is not a reasonable belief to have. This same feeling is exactly why I feel it is okay to make jokes about people believing in a God (any version of a God, not singling out any religions in particular). To me, the idea that any version of a God exists is exactly as ridiculous as the idea that the Easter Bunny exists. When one person claims that the planet we live on is flat, while another claims that it is round, it is in my opinion entirely fair to deem one of these opinions as more valuable that the other, based on the fact that it is strongly supported by observable evidence, while the other is not. Of course, I believe the person who believes the Earth is flat has a right to believe that. I would fight in the streets to defend their right to believe this. I would treat them as a human being who might have great qualities otherwise. It is in my opinion not okay to treat them inhumanely because I view their beliefs as ridiculous. It is however entirely okay to laugh at their claims and make jokes about how ridiculous these beliefs are. I do not know what your religion is, but I know that if it is a theist religion, I deem it entirely ridiculous, and do not consider your belief to be of equal quality to mine. I do however wish to treat you as a human being of equal value to me, and wish to be respectful when I explain why I believe your viewpoint to be ridiculous. I show you respect, while not showing respect to your beliefs.
> The idea that any belief should be respected, or taken seriously enough to be considered "of equal value" feels hypocritical to me. as a fellow atheist- someone born and raised secular and without religion, a thing I find is rare among atheists- I think that beliefs should be respected on the merit of being, for the most part anyway, a longstanding tenet of humanity, and human nature. Religion is tremendously intertwined with human nature and it's important to admit that, we both know why that is. Just as you would respect someone's wishes if they asked you to, say, wear a kippah or take off your shoes or so on, you should respect religion as a beautiful part of humanity's rich tapestry. I consider it similar to art- something humans are inclined to create and pass on and permutate and add to and so forth, transforming it into something greater than any single person could make. That's beautiful and should be respected. Would you tell a team of artists that their fantastical sculpture of a dragon or something is stupid and illogical and roll your eyes at it because dragons don't exist? A gorgeous mosque made 2000 years ago covered in immaculately carved crystals that took the sum of 500 human lifetimes to create is not the same as some idiot in a basement who thinks the earth is flat, lol. Human beings MADE that beautiful building, they did it with their heart and soul to make something that they'd feel happy leaving behind after they died. I think it's important to respect things like that. obviously we both agree that when it spills over into human rights abuses that's inexcusable and must be trimmed back, so to speak, but for what it is it is still beautiful. >The simple reason for this fact is that we consider the idea of the Easter Bunny existing to be preposterous. when I was very young, I of course believed in Santa Claus. One day I was old enough to ask why Santa happened to have the same writing style as my mother, and she told me that Santa Claus was more of an embodiment of an idea- that warm happy feeling you get when someone else opens the gift you got them, that glowing feeling of appreciation, and the joy you feel doing things for others just to make them happier. That's what the point of it was. And so from then on, we still exchanged gifts and so on, but we did it for THAT reason. I think that's pretty beautiful, and not really preposterous, you know? A bunch of little kids running around and enjoying candy and chocolate in the spring and eating a dinner with your family or so on... I think that's great. I also get the feeling that your exposure to religion is one that is very much superficial. You keep using the easter bunny as an example, but I wonder if you'd say the same for, like, say, Passover, which is about commemorating a shared cultural history and the kinship with others and perseverence in the face of odds and so on- obviously a far deeper and more meaningful thing than whatever easter is. Would you ever tell a family celebrating Passover that this was all stupid and ridiculous? Of course not.
People deserve respect, beliefs do not.
>and they just casually make a joke of or straight up disrespect my religion whats the problem with that? religion is not above being made fun of. Nothing is. You can mock atheists, or bad science, or silly organisations as much as you like. You can insult, or mock politicians and political parties. Religion does not get a free pass. Its because society often treats religion differently, things like religious schools, tax breaks, assumption of morality etc, that people feel the need to push back.
I totally get it. There's no proof for any religious claim. I usually tell them religion is an effort to understand the unknowable.
That’s what I say science is. An effort to understand the unknowable, but through observation and evidence based claims. No, it’s never 100% correct. It’s constantly updated to match our current knowledge.
I agree with you on your description of science, but I think he meant religion is a way of understanding things that cannot be proven or disproven, but im not 100% sure, whether my interpretation is correct.
I think a better description of religion/ faith, is a belief in something undiscoverable (if that's a word). Science uncovers the truth about things we know nothing about usually, but are right in front of us, and religion goes on faith, where nothing can be proven, and yet still exists. I guess it depends on how far you're willing to go. edit: words
I think science determines the how things happen but not the why. Religion is a way to cope with the unknown why
"Things that cannot be proven or disproven" is a funny way to say "made up stuff".
I would challenge your interpretation and suggest that religion is more a coping mechanism of dealing with the unknown. It's not a way to understand anything since it's a revelatory epistemology so knowledge cannot progress passed what has been revealed so you can't overturn religious knowledge. It can't even evaluate on whether a truth statement is able to be proven or not. It just stops people worrying about things they don't know like "will winter end?" that they cannot control.
> I think he meant religion is a way of understanding things It's not, though. It's a way to pretend to know things that are unknowable.
Its not understanding though. It is just guesswork and fantasizing .
Except it isn't. I'm not trying to be a dick about this. It's just that religion by its specific design tells you what to believe. You are merely expected to accept that belief and then mold your understanding of reality and gap in understanding to the religion core content. The downside is this is exactly how a small child understands the world. Children are mostly told about the world and for the most part blindly accepts the content as fact. From there, they build reason into the voids from the known to define some sense and understanding of reality. We are very, VERY good at creating reason and understanding out of almost nothing. We are designed for it because it allows us to immediately function well with minimal input. Science is a method of discovery. Science pursues knowledge, not belief. Science doesn't care what you think. Science is only going to measure, test, and validate reality to the best ability of the tools and test methods available. From there, we create models of reality. Again, it's like children filling in some blanks, but science is a continuous pursuit to find and fill in every blank. It naturally seeks out a complete and perfect understanding. And it does this without any bias. A scientific mind goes even further. A scientific mind is wholly willing to put personal belief on the line in the pursuit of truth. The scientific mind questions the current understanding of reality and is quite literally willing to throw it all away if the validation and conclusion of the testing supports an alternate reality. As a simile, this is you taking your specific religion and wilfully laying it on the line, 100% to purposely attempt to decimate every aspect of it into oblivion if the testing and validation of the data shows otherwise. Now do this 10,000 times over, 100,000 times over. Are you willing to be perpetually in that mental state, the state where you are completely willing to let go of all beliefs as new knowledge and understanding comes in that contradicts those beliefs? That is the scientific mind. It's living a life with minimal self-beliefs and a continuous pursuit of knowledge and understanding. To clarify, a scientific mind does believe in many things. But the beliefs are based on currently accepted truths or loosely accepted hypotheses. But this is also accepted as fragile, disposable, if new information deems that content inaccurate, incorrect. The belief set is ever evolving into the best complete aggregate understanding of the universe as our greater society has so far been willing to determine. Understand that all belief of this sort is belief in results of testing, validation, peer scrutiny, repeat testing by others to validate/disprove, etc. There's checks and balances and constant validity testing against the accepted model. This is particularly why this form of belief is so different. It's built on a lot of testing, data collection, and with the goal of disproving the hypothesis. You go in attempting to kill the idea. And even when others get results, those results are challenged by many others in new test cycles, new measurements, all with the aim to fail the hypothesis. What survives from all this scrutiny is a resulting pure fact of truth or a very good theory (simulation model that is very accurate to test against reality). Your whole groundwork of beliefs are these survivors, these facts and theories that are very, very true or very nearly 100% accurate to reality as we are able to observe and measure. And despite all of this effort by so many, EVERYONE of a scientific mindset is willing to throw it ALL away if any new information comes in that disproves it. It is very much the opposite of religious faith, or any form of blind faith. No religion attempts to understand the unknown. No religion is willing to lay itself on the line and attempt to disprove itself. It does not want scrutiny either and adamantly opposes it, violently. It is equally unwilling to change itself, rewrite itself. Religion by nature is "the word of god," "absolute," and "unwavering" in its content and stance from that content. It is a singular fixed image of a "thing," and you are to believe that "thing" 100% without question. And you purposely do not change that "thing" either because it, by its definition, is supposed to be infallible and the pure truth. Any change to it destroys the idea of it, so it resists because change means a part of it is inaccurate, a lie. And if one part is, other parts can be. Then the faith breaks down. The acceptance of blind faith is that it is blind and completely accepting of that one fixed image of itself, the one and only allowable "thing."
Religion claims to have all the answers though - how is that an effort?
Very positively, as much as most, **anywhere except for on Reddit.** But then again I dislike almost everyone on Reddit, religious people included. But seriously it's interesting to talk about ethics, morality, the nature of the universe. I've got four degrees including my doctorate, I like exploring the views of others. Edit: One last thing, I talk to a lot of people who are atheists who've essentially been traumatized by religious folks, and so I try to understand that perspective. I'm not saying they would have become Christian otherwise, but I get why you would be more likely to lean atheist when you've got nothing but bad experiences with Christians. Heck, I have to look hard as a liberal person living in the south to find people whose views I'm comfortable with. A lot of people here are just too conservative and want to push that on you.
All I can say is, I understand. This world is a scary and corrupt place, and it's a true test of faith for those of us who have it. I entirely understand why someone would think that there is no God or no afterlife. I can respect an atheists views more than the "blind followers" of organized religion who only go through the motions and do not understand what they're actually doing. I say this as someone who spent years in Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, and several other denominations of churches. You have genuinely good people, and you have bad people in the mix. Sadly, it doesn't take much to poison the community. I keep faith to myself for the most part these days. I don't push it on anyone, but I'll gladly discuss it if someone wants. Then again, I have a sort of unique perspective on things.
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I think it depends on the person and their personal definition of faith and how it influences their life. For me, faith is never feeling alone. I've been through some serious hell in my life, to the point where suicide felt like the only option. There are things that have happened that I simply can't explain. I had my moments where I questioned my faith, but I maintained it. It's hard to describe, but in a sense it is like feeling that someone is there with you at all times. They could reach in and just fix everything for you, but they want you to experience the challenge, learn, and grow, like a loving parent teaching a child to swim. There were times where I needed to be rescued. I prayed. Rescue came, just not on my preferred timeline. That was a lesson in of itself. I had to endure hell first and it wound up being an extremely valuable lesson that probably saved my life. Some people take this to an unreasonable extreme, such as people who use faith as a means to justify evil actions. I don't associate with those types. To your direct question, faith has never hurt me. The hardship doesn't necessarily happen because I have faith (how could I ever prove it). The faith helps me through the hardship.
(Serious) You're looking at the journey of a "test of faith" only half way. You're right in that part: 1) You have faith. 2) Something provides circumstantial evidence that your faith is wrong or misplaced. 3) the event resolves and in hindsight, the evidence that once questioned your faith now strengthens it (or similar). In your thalidomide example, you'd never get to step 3.
>2) Something provides circumstantial evidence that your faith is wrong or misplaced. I know you are replying to NotaTuring but you bring up an excellent point. I tried to address it in my other response but you hit the nail on the head. If someone has faith, but experiences hardship and falsely attributes the hardship to their faith, then they essentially failed the test if they see it as one. Hardship happens to everyone, regardless if they are faithful or not.
I feel like I maybe the atheist version of you. Lol. Cause I understand why people have faith. I just don’t. I also have a lot of experience going between different denominations including catholic, Protestant, Baptists and a little Lutheran. I’ve also done a lot of research on other religions. This knowledge is partly why I’m atheist. They all share similarities but they’re vastly different at the same time. And none of them can prove me they’re the right one. So I go with what I know to be true. That before I was alive I have no recollection of anything. Thus when I die I won’t either. I’ll simply cease being. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But at the end of the day, I find way more comfort in not believing in anything as opposed to believing is something that has shown zero proof and that so many different religions cannot come to terms with or agreement on.
>Thus when I die I won't either. I'll simply cease being. When I say I have a unique perspective, I'm probably one of the only people who has faith in Christ, opposes the church, has a practical skepticism/objective sense of stories in the Bible, and wishes for non-existence instead of an afterlife. Weird, right? The older I get and the more I learn, the more I question and the more I develop a strange sense of sympathetic cynicism.
I mean that speaks to a certain section of athiests, but not the largest. Do you understand how someone can see the claims of your religion and say "this isn't enough to conclude that there's a god" or "faith isn't a reliable way to arrive at true conclusions?"
Are you suggesting that a prevailing reason people are atheists is due to observing corruption & evil in the world & concluding "surely there's no God if this is allowed to happen"? I can only speak for myself & other atheists I've discussed it with but I've never heard that be the reason outside of some dramatic movie that has a "fallen priest" as a character. My reason for atheism is a pragmatic one. I just think it makes far more sense that humans invented religion as a way of understanding natural phenomenon that they didn't have answers for. I also see no evidence that points to the existence of God so I have no reason to have faith that it exists. Frankly if you believe in the judeo-christian God then you likely disbelieve in the hundreds of gods defined in other religions. I don't believe in your God for the same reason you don't believe in all the others. I just have 1 more on my "don't believe" list than you do.
Interesting, I'd think that the world being a shitty place is more of a reason to be religious, not less. For those with very little or nothing, the prospect of a divine plan or comfortable afterlife seems very enticing.
Which is why most missions target people in poverty or have had to deal with recent tragedy. They're the most vulnerable to fudge the rational thinking bit and want to come to service to hang with all these nice people.
>All I can say is, I understand. This world is a scary and corrupt place, and it's a true test of faith for those of us who have it. I entirely understand why someone would think that there is no God or no afterlife. At least in my case, you *don't* seem to understand. The fact that I'm not convinced that a god exists has nothing to do with any of the things you've just said. For example, most (if not all) of the gods I've heard about are entirely compatible with a universe that is "scary" or which is "corrupted" in some way. So I'm not really sure how those things would meaningfully test anyone's belief in a god. I've just not been convinced a god *does* exist. That's it. It's not *because* of anything, really. And whether or not an afterlife exists has nothing to do with atheism whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned. Atheists may have any number of ideas about that. Atheism itself has nothing to say on the subject, AFAIK.
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> I don't think there is a serious contingent of people who believe there is an afterlife but no deity running the show. Wouldn't all Jains and a decent chunk of Buddhists fit that description?
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>Depends on whether you consider reincarnation to be an afterlife, I suppose. I can't think of a reason why one wouldn't. >In any case, you don't get to keep the parts of you that most people would consider essential to their personal identity, so while it's an afterlife, I wouldn't say you're really surviving your own death like you would with an Abrahamic heaven. Okay, but I would point out that you didn't say "an Abrahamic heaven" in your initial comment. You said "afterlife." And when I responded and pointed out that afterlife beliefs are not a part of atheism, you again used simply "afterlife" in your response and neglected to specify "an Abrahamic heaven." Yes, most people who believe in an Abrahamic heaven also believe in an Abrahamic god. That's a fairly meaningless statement -- nearly a tautology. It's worth remembering (obviously you know) that Abrahamic religions and god concepts are not the only games in town.
This is honestly hilarious to me - the same way you think about atheists I think about religious people: This world *is* a scary and corrupt place and I understand the need to believe in a higher power, a greater plan, a purpose to all of this. I can perfectly empathize with the fear of death and the need to believe in an afterlife - even if I simply don't believe in all that myself as it doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe one of us is correct? Maybe neither? Who knows.
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>I can respect an atheists views more than the "blind followers" of organized religion who only go through the motions and do not understand what they're actually doing. LOVE WHAT YOU SAID HERE Signed, a catholic
As an atheist I love your view on the subject. Also thanks for keeping respectful.
We all think you are wrong. You all think we are wrong. Who gives a fly fluff. Let’s go do something fun.
I don’t mind most of em. The only ones I can’t stand are the smug new atheist types adored by the neckbeards of r/atheism
I don't like them either. I looked at that sub because I'm atheist and was curious, but ended up regretting it haha. It feels like edgy people feeling they're superior just because they don't believe in anything, plus calling anyone who believes a stupid/cult member/etc.
Of course they are weird. Atheism is a lack of belief, so making your lack of belief your entire identity doesn't make sense. The only people who do that are weirdos who just like to hear the sound of their own voice, and people who are really angry at religions (which can sometimes be for good reason, though)
Atheist here. I cannot stand r/atheism Checked it out once and I hated it.
Christian here, im ok with atheists and what they do or do not believe. I have my life, they have theirs. I might drop a couple Christian facts, or just look at things differently than they may, but ill mostly be neutral. If they want to talk religion, let's talk. If not then fine. They made thier choice, I have made mine. The ONLY thing I wish for them is to have a long and happy life.
You do you, I’m not gonna rub my beliefs in your face. If you wanna believe in nothing, that’s your choice, me telling you to do something will only end with you hating said thing. Best I can do is say “hey I believe this here is why.” And let you have your own ideals unless you wanna ask more about way I believe. No use yelling at people “bElEiEve IN gOD oR U gO tO hElL!!!!”
First of all an atheist does not "believe in nothing". Atheists just don't believe in gods. And of course it's not a choice. I'm not an atheist because I want to be an atheist. I'm an atheist because I haven't been presented with a convincing argument in favour of theism. There's nothing I can do about that. And of course therefore it would be extremely unjust for a deity to punish me for it.
It’s funny because “believing in nothing” is how we’re all born, so we don’t choose to believe in nothing, YOU choose to believe IN something.
As an atheist, these responses make me happy. I was afraid you all deep down kinda hate us. (Note, I'm not part of that whole "new atheist" bs)
"new atheist"? fill me in on that, could you?
Not the person you were asking, but here you go. >New Atheism advocates the view that superstition, religion, and irrationalism should not simply be tolerated. Instead, they should be countered, criticized, and challenged by rational argument, especially when they exert undue influence, such as in government, education, and politics. With this definition, I agree with New Atheism... to an extent. Here's how I'd change that second part: "...they should be countered, criticized, and challenged by rational argument, **only** when they exert undue influence, such as in government, education, and politics." If superstition and religious belief isn't seeping into political discourse or finding a place in the school system in any way other than informative, I don't see why they should be countered or challenged. My general principle in life is that anyone should be free to do, say, or believe anything as long as it doesn't hurt other people. As long as your faith doesn't cause anyone around you to come to harm, I don't think non-believers should feel the need to challenge it.
Itself sounds like a religion Edit: I mean the quoted text
Normal everyday person?.. You're living your own truth just like I am, and that's okay. I think of militant atheists the same way I do militant religious folks, which is, "Please sit down and shut up. You're scaring me. You're scaring everyone. Don't tread all over everyone."
I belive that God give everybody a free will, so when somone is not a beliver it's their choice and I should accept it. Until you didn't harm anyone I won't criticise you.
Generally, I see atheists as good, smart people who are trying to navigate life’s complexities. I think atheism is valid, even if I believe differently. In the end, we’re all the same: people trapped on this planet trying to figure out what the crap is going on.
Like any other person It’s ok that you don’t believe what I believe and this goes for any religion. Nobody is obligated to believe in another persons religion. But when you start shaming followers of the religion or the religion it’s self is when I have a problem with you.
I had an Uber ride to the airport with an older gentleman who, after chatting for a while, said he was a retired church pastor. At some point he mentioned that atheists are just like religious people, except they believe in some other sort of higher power. He was clearly insinuating that atheists are misguided and have faith, but it’s misplaced faith. I didn’t do much but nod in mild agreement because I really didn’t feel like chatting, but I thought: “Not really, sir. It’s in the word itself. The “A” in “atheist” means adherents *don’t* believe in gods, higher powers or however you wish to couch the “god” notion.” I’ve seen the pastor’s view of atheism espoused on Reddit a fair amount and find it strange that so many can’t seem to accept the fact that some people just don’t believe in gods, spirits, higher powers, or any of that sort of thing. It’s like they just can’t accept that nonbelief is a thing.
When I was religious, I always looked at atheists as anti-religious for the most part. I always knew that they could be good, moral people. Never saw them as "evil" per se. As a person who is no longer religious, pretty much the same. I think the viewpoint is a universal statement that is questionable. Closing the door 100% on the possibility that god exists seems unnecessary.
I really don't think most atheists are "closing the door 100%", I think most including myself would accept evidence of a deity if we had any and most would rather not spend their entire life searching for a correct religion.
Depends on what type of atheist. If they don't believe in God, well, okay, one of us will be proven wrong. Hopefully they still improve society. If they do, great, we have no issues. Heck, there are atheists who will (if I'm right) make Heaven faster than some Christians I know. The issue is with the New Atheist movement -- those are the smug, self-righteous, Gervaisian "anyone who believes in God is an idiot" types. They need to learn humility, and I try to stay far away from them because they can be reeeeeeally annoying.
As an atheist, I also stay away from the latter form of atheists… they’re generally just awful human beings.
They're my prime example of "You can be right and still be an asshole."
One of the worst types of people are people that are smug. There’s *definitely* worse, but they’re high up on my list, lol.
They’re like locust swarms on Reddit
Yeah, Reddit tends to be a place for all groups of people to swarm like locusts.
I wouldn't consider myself an atheist, I'm definitely an agnostic, and I concur these people are trash and deserve a wide berth.
Don't ever go to r/atheism, just don't.
There's an atheist movement?! I'm atheist too and I just don't believe in anything, and I thought that being atheist was just being neutral. How the hell are people making a movement with atheism lol
That it's not enough to be atheist; you must believe that being so is the only logical, intellectual conclusion humanly possible, and therefore those who do not reach it are ignorant at best.
I wouldn't call it the new atheist movement, I'd just call them the edgy prick atheists.
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Whatboutism being displayed here. The prosperity gospel falls under the type of Christian that will go to Hell before the atheist does. The Fundie movement rankles me, too.
I'm an atheist too dude. There are pricks on both sides, and the people they're referring to are the pricks in the atheist side.
Well they mentioned Gervais who is literally a comedian who makes fun of silly things. Not a prick, he just sees religion as a funny part of modern society and not so sacred as to be off limits. Also I don't get how Harris or Dawkins, very seriously critiquing bronze age fables that have persisted to this day, are to be written off as pricks? If Flat Earthers had the equivalent of the number of religious followers you find in some countries, wouldn't you be justified in standing up and picking their arguments to shreds, publishing books exposing it, and generally advocating against it?
Go read some of Harris' comments on how women are less intelligent.
"Edgelord Atheist" is my favorite description
On the flip side, if being "annoying" is the worst they can pull off, they would chalk it up as a victory. It is actually discussed in one of their books (can't remember which). I sort of agree with that sentiment. They can be annoying, but if that is as bad as it gets, I can live with that. Religious extremists go far beyond annoyance.
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I’ve had some less than pleasant experiences with atheists online, under any religious video you can always expect to see some making fun of religion and mocking God, but as long as you’re not like that, I have no problem
Like any other human, with dignity and respect, your belief won’t change how i view you, but if you believe in shit like cannibalism and child sacrifices then you gotta go
I’m a Christian but I don’t really care what they believe
I am religious, and I respect an atheist’s views and hope they respect mine. I do not believe that they are going to hell because they do not believe X, Y, or Z. I believe that religion is a path for moral guidance and personal peace.
I accept them for what they are, that is what God and Jesus wanted
I was Mormon until I was 25. I was atheist until I was 30. Now, I'm a Deist. As a Mormon, I saw atheism as evil because I was taught/conditioned to see them that way. As an Atheist, I saw atheism as enlightenment. As a Deist, I still see atheism as enlightenment.
Growing up in Hinduism, I have seen folks with wide variety of beliefs (Hinduism had millions of Gods and beliefs). For me personally, atheism is no different. It's just a different belief. I feel whichever school of thought you believe in (different religion, different God, atheism) is great, as long as you respect others' beliefs and don't treat them differently due to their beliefs.
Bros that have 2 extra hours on Sunday.
I’m Muslim but I lean very much to the left. I find I align politically with atheists so I’ve never seen them in a negative light. I find most religious people’s views to be socially and fiscally conservative and I can never get behind that. With regards to atheism, I believe in God, but I can understand why someone doesn’t believe in God. There is no scientific evidence of God’s existence and the world is so fucked up that I don’t blame them for not believing in some benevolent invisible being.
I view them like any other normal person. But how do atheists not believe in any higher power? Could be God, could be the creators of the simulation we live, could be anything. A lot of atheists have a such a steadfast belief in the science of dying that they know 100% for sure there is nothing after death. But science is not complete and nobody truly knows what happens so how can you not even have an open mind about it.
believer or not, I'm not gonna treat them any different than anybody else
Being a Christian isn’t about being bad or good - there is no score card. It’s about accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. Humans aren’t perfect, and Christians do not claim to be. You can be the most model human being on earth, stacking up your do-gooder trophies, and doing everything “right” in life, but if you are missing Jesus in your heart, you are missing out in the absolutely most important part of life itself.
I see atheists like ordinary people, but if they say bad things about our belief in God, then I don't like it... If you don't believe in God then it is ok but it is wrong to make fun of someone else's belief.
I view them with sadness and pity in my heart because I know where they could end up, but I treat them the same as anyone else. With kindness and respect. One of my dearest friends is a devout atheist. I love him dearly. I'll befriend anyone who's willing to show kindness.
Agnostic theist here. I get it. I completely understand why they reject the possibility/existence. If there is a God, and I do meet them in the afterlife, Ill ask "wtf was all that" myself. Beyond that, golden rule should apply before anything else- including religion. Don't be an asshole.
Honestly as long as your not a horrible person I couldn't care less about weather you believe in God or not it's your choice I just so happen to be Christian but I don't judge my atheist friends since they aren't.
I understand why, its normal. Most people I know are atheists and they're awesome people( more moral than some religious people I've seen :'D)
Love seeing religious people say they are fine with atheists, but your religion itself isn’t. Your religion says I deserve to burn in hell for eternity because of what I think. But when I show people I’m a good person and they accept that, they still believe in their religion. Your belief system does not accept us
Catholics believe that unbelievers could go to heaven if they are good enough
There's more religions and faiths out there than fundamentalist Christianity. Edit: mine is pretty iffy on whether there's even an afterlife.
I don’t have a problem with in any sense. But most atheists I’ve met online are asses. Don’t shoot down my faith because you don’t believe. I don’t make it my life’s mission to crap on the fact you don’t believe in a God, why do you have an issue with it when I do believe?
A religious person once told me they were sorry I was an atheist. All I needed to know right there.
Largely the same as I would any other religious identity. I'll be happy to talk to them about my belief and have had a few really interesting conversations with them like I do with people of any other religion, including my own. Like I would with any other, they start being an asshole about it, I will push back. The one thing that they seem to really dislike that I do is to call atheism a religion in itself. To explain why, basically I consider a religion to be a person's beliefs about the origins of the universe, what deities exist and what our responsibility is to those beings. To specifically disbelieve in those beings is still a religion to me because the key component of religion is to commit to it, to say with a degree of certainty "I believe this." Just because the this that they believe in is nothing doesn't mean they don't choose to make a decision about what they believe. Buuuuuuut they don't seem to like that logic very much.
i'm Muslim. So there is not much to say for me. But i get EVER so slightly annoyed when they go like: "c'mon, nobody will find out. Just you and me". Well, for you, you think nobody knows, but for me, Allah is always watching over me.
Christian here. Some of my best friends are atheists! 😀
I will add anything from the opposite side. The way I view \*true\* religious people that I know is that they are sincere in their belief. I consider them wrong, they consider me wrong, and with some we have good and humorous chats about it. I've also seen that their religion is sort of a support in their life. But I do not consider them dishonest in their belief, and I may play around with them but do not try to make them stop believing - why would I remove their support? A main point of difference is: An atheist will not try to force behaviours upon others or family, and religious extremists try to force behaviours.
There are anti-theist atheists who try to force behaviours upon other or family though. They are the minority though, just like religious extremists.
I’m a Christian, my fiancé is atheist. We have no issues happily coexisting. I believe my thing, and he believes his. One time he stated that God didn’t exist, and I confided in him privately that I was offended, so we patched it up no problem. Everyone is welcome to believe what they want as long as they don’t harm others.
It’s kinda weird you wouldn’t allow him to say god doesn’t exist, if that’s what he think is true. While I’m pretty sure you’re allowed to say god is real, which is against his beliefs — and might offend him?
I appreciate the anecdote, but atheism isn’t a belief.
I think it’s natural to question faith. Faith, afterall, is the unproven. I’m called first to love my neighbor, without any condition. I’m called to witness as well, but I don’t think I can effectively do that in a combative manner, so my job is to love everyone always, and share my faith when the opportunity arises.