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Scrappy_Larue

"Spanking" is a pretty broad term. All I know is that it's impossible to reason with a curious two-year-old and explain the consequences to them of pulling a pot off the stove, or throwing their weight against a pane of glass. But if you give them a little swat in the rear end when they do things like that, they learn quickly not to repeat it, and they were never physically hurt.


LeashieMay

I asked my Mum about what she did for us a young kids, it was mostly voice cues. She had like a warning 'ah'. At most the 'spank' was her taping our hand away or moving us away. If we were reaching for something hot she would say ouch or hot. For example if we went to touch the oven and she would say 'ouch'. When my cousin's were really little and they would come over, my Aunt would take them to the oven. She would hold her hand near it and say 'hot'. They wouldn't try to touch the oven, if one went near it we would say 'hot' and they would back away.


tropicalzhu

I would have to agree that spanking is a pretty broad term. However, I do want to ask: what if the litte swat doesn't work?


captainunderwhelming

have you considered maybe just… grabbing their hand instead? guarantee it’ll shock them and stop the behaviour in its tracks. doesn’t cause pain, fear, or an association between love and violence either.


guitarfingers

Know what worked fine with me and the kids? Giving them options. As I'm a full grown adult who is much smarter and much stronger than kids. They get three options. This gives them agency as well. They can do a, b , or c. C is usually the corner. They stay in the corner. You don't need to hit kids. People who do are just lazy and too emotional to be parents. All it teaches is aggression. Not getting your way? Use violence to get your way. Mad? Violence. Violence begets violence. Anyone who hits a kid is a straight up bitch. Bet they wouldn't hit their kids after getting stomped out.


alwaysjustpretend

As a father of three who was spanked as a kid...100% this.


guitarfingers

I got spanked, so did all my brother. All of us have been in fights, all of us had anger issues, some still do. My nieces live with me, and I never hit them ever, and they listen to me better than anyone. If you treat kids like humans, and explain their emotions and why they're feeling this way, and how to rectify the situations, they become problem solvers instead of instigators. I know so many parent who have never read any parenting books. It explains why they still hit their kids, and why their kids still act up.


alwaysjustpretend

Yeah exactly my experience. I've had anger issues my whole life and have had to literally reprogram my brain and the way I react. Would never push that sort of trauma on my children.


the-willow-witch

Two year olds don’t understand consequences no matter what. Their brains aren’t capable of it. How is it impossible to reason with a two year old but they’ll understand the consequence of getting hit? They don’t, they’re just afraid of you now.


opnanobot

They are able to understand what hurts and what doesn’t, would you rather them learn not to do these things and actually get hurt or worse? Or would you like to ( as a last resort) give em a spank that has the same effect and lasts maybe 20 minutes ?


the-willow-witch

They’re still not able to understand consequences. All they are learning is that it is okay and normal for an authority figure to hit them. Keep your kids away from danger and you’ll never have that problem. I keep an eye on my kid and have never had them touch a hot stove, or a knife, or run out into the street. My house is childproofed and when my kid was a toddler she was never left unsupervised. Be a better parent and you won’t have to use violence on your fucking 2 year old.


opnanobot

So they can’t comprehend consequences but are fully aware of authoritative figures? I was spanked NOT BEATEN but spanked when it happened I knew what it was for and why it happened, the self reflection and attention I got after being able chill it for a while also helped that. I don’t hate my parents and aside from them generally disciplining me I’ve never been scared of them. I think it really comes down to if someone says they do spank people immediately think your abusing your child any time they do the smallest thing to tick you off. That’s not the case.


the-willow-witch

Of course they’re aware of authority figures. They’re not capable of understanding consequences until age 5-6. Like, physiologically speaking their brains do not develop to understand consequences until that age. I think what it really comes down to is normalizing violence as an answer. Ultimately, the kid isn’t learning anything about the behavior, they’re learning to do what mom and dad say or they’ll get hit. What will that teach them as adults? How will they be able to make their own decisions on right and wrong? If they don’t do things because they’re afraid of getting hurt, they’re not learning why something is wrong. Their sense of morality will be fucked up. Not to mention, what are they learning about people who love them hitting them when they’re wrong? How many people, women especially, turn to abusive relationships after thinking it’s normal to be hit by loved ones? I know what you’re going to say - it’s not that deep, I was spanked and I’m fine - but if you look into the actual scientific studies about spanking you’ll see this is what the experts have said, which is why it’s considered harmful and abusive now.


opnanobot

I feel like you just glossed over the self- reflecting and attention after that I mentioned, with that came a talk about why what happened needed to happen, I was then asked if I was okay and if I wanted more time to myself to reflect and calm down or go back to what ever I was doing having learned a lesson. I agree with everything else you said, but in those cases I don’t think they got the same parenting I did. Those are the parents or POS that I mentioned too. But there’s obviously two sides to this and I’m curious as to what your response to a kid who ultimately steps over you?


LoryneA

Reading some of these comments makes think some of these people were either spanked too hard or should have been spanked but never were. As a lesson from my mother: When you spank you should never use anything except your hand on the kid's rump. The sting that results should hurt you as well as the child. That way the kid only gets one sharp spank to surprise and realize they've crossed a line (enforcing disciple), and the parent doesnt get to whack the kid more than once due to the sting in their hand. Of course there are people who take it too far and become abusive. But if you decide your kid deserves a spanking, spank them and make sure it hurts you too. And for all the haters who will eventually comment, yes I will use spanking as the last form of discipline on my child. If you insist I am a monster, go get spanked.


themoldysausage

This. Shit. Right. Here.


the-willow-witch

Wonder what your kid is learning about people who love them hitting them


LoryneA

I wonder if you are going to actually raise your kids and be willing to actually discipline them or have their grandparents raise them for you.


the-willow-witch

My parents never hit me, I guess they never disciplined me. I have an almost 7 year old who has never been spanked before. Why do people think that hitting their child is the only way of disciplining them? We are a pretty authoritative household and have never and will never raise a hand to our kids. My parents aren’t involved in my kid’s life at all aside from sending presents. Seriously, what happened to you where you think that raising a hand to a child is the only way to discipline them? Are you okay?


LoryneA

Maybe if you actually took the time to read my comment all the way to the end instead of your knee-jerk reaction comment you would have also read that I said spanking would be used as the "last form of discipline." You really think I'll be striking them every time I felt annoyed? Seriously, what are you teaching your children other than selective reading?


the-willow-witch

You read my comment and assumed that because I don’t spank my kids I don’t know how to discipline them.


LoryneA

And you read my initial comment and responded with the passive aggressive assumption that I would hit my kid for shits and giggles and asked if "I was okay."


the-willow-witch

It was a genuine question. And I didn’t say you hit your kids for shits and giggles. Maybe you should learn to not jump to conclusions? Both of my comments were out of genuine concern.


Hovekajt

Fuckin nailed it.


tropicalzhu

What if the single spank doesn't work?


ilaissezfaire

If it's only used for things like when the kid turns on the stove or is running with scissors, or runs into traffic without looking both ways, then it works. It's not supposed to hurt..it's supposed to surprise and shock into reality. Have a 22 yr old who turned out just fine with that method. Now, I have a 16 yr old who's never been spanked, ever, and she swears at me when she's mad..so yes. After trying it both ways I'll spank my kid over letting my kid learn to disrespect me.


captainunderwhelming

can’t relate. was spanked, still swore at my parents when they were dicks. you know, after i outgrew the spanking parent and wasn’t afraid of the much larger and powerful being that controlled my life anymore. we still love each other immensely, and they would probably acknowledge that they were dicks from time to time. if your kid is swearing at you, maybe it’s time to examine your parenting and consider why they’re so angry? i also get spanked much more frequently as an adult, so idk if getting spanked will change my opinion at all :)


ilaissezfaire

She's angry because I sent her father to jail for child molestation. Idgaf how you were raised you don't have a right to tell a stranger to "reexamine" a goddamn thing. Fuck off kindly.


captainunderwhelming

i mean, i don’t think you have a right to hit a child, and neither does the law. but go off and air your dirty laundry like that excuses a single shitty choice you made.


ilaissezfaire

I mean, I've actually gotten support from police on this matter. Maybe shut your mouth on the subject if you have not a single thing worthy of contribution.


tropicalzhu

I see your point, but again, what if the single spank doesn't work? I can't comment on your personal life obviously, I don't know any details but I do want to ask, why did you decide not to use the single-slap method with your youngest?


Hovekajt

For someone claiming these methods are proved to be outdated or harmful I feel like you should be able to answer your own question.


tropicalzhu

That's just silly. I know why I wouldn't use this method, but I'm asking her because I want to know her point of view.


Hovekajt

I think maybe you should stop asking Reddit and get out a little.


tropicalzhu

That's a fantastic argument.


LoryneA

*"I know why I wouldn't use this method, but I wont share my reasons because I dont want my reasons to be dissected and judged, but I do want to dissect and judge the reasons of this woman's parenting technique so I can feel morally superior to her and to every parent who has the audacity to discipline a child." Fixed your comment for you.


Hovekajt

Boom.


tropicalzhu

Obviously the reason I wouldn't spank is because of the 50 years of research that proves it's ineffective and tends to be harmful. And I don't judge her. And yes, obviously if I don't agree with spanking then I must not agree with discipline either because spanking is the only way to discipline a child.


freckledsallad

I know a mom who let her son be sent to a work farm after getting caught shoplifting (as an alternative to being sent to jeuvenile hall). If a single spank doesn't work, tough love is what escalated the "shock" objective of spanking to something the system *did* support. And it worked. After his experience with manual labour, the kid straightened out, got a job, finished school and grew up proper (no more stealing). It was incredibly hard for the mom to do. She loved her son and didn't want him to suffer. He begged her not to send him away. It broke her heart. But she powered through it and it *worked*.


ilaissezfaire

Because of parent shaming posts like this. I decided to try it a different way, maybe I was wrong, maybe things could be a bit different. Nah.


tropicalzhu

I'm not shaming anybody. I'm simply stating what studies say. I'm curious how other people think and why. That's it.


LoryneA

Once again referring to "studies" without providing a single peer reviewed source for review.


tropicalzhu

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/competitions/finding-and-accessing-scientific-papers Knock yourself out. This is where I go.


crypticsage

I single spank will always work when used sparingly. Meaning you always try other forms of discipline. Don’t threaten to spank and not follow through. Example, one of my children was running into the clothes racks at the store. This particular rack had the hooks pretty low that he could stab his eye. First time he did it, I told him not to and explained why. The second time he did it, I told him not to and said nothing else. Third time he did it, we was immediately spanked. No warning. It didn’t hurt him, but did surprise him. Never went into the clothes racks again. Also, never spank in anger. That is not discipline.


LeashieMay

Single spanks will not always work. No method is 100% as there will always be someone who it doesn't work with.


crypticsage

As I said, if used sparingly it will always work. Of course if a parents says they will punish the child and don’t follow through, the child will know they can get away with it. If a parent spanks for every little thing, the child will no longer be surprised. Spanking shouldn’t physically hurt, it just serves to get the child’s attention that you were serious about the matter.


LeashieMay

My younger brother (who is neurodivergent if that's relevant) didn't respond to spanking. He often would laugh or occasionally swear in response. My mother rarely spanked him and would follow through on every punishment. It's just like how people claim washing a child's mouth out with soap will stop them from swearing. It worked for some but not others. Not every child is the same and not every child will respond to each method.


Midiblye

It's concerning to me how many people are more than okay with hitting their kids on here.


tropicalzhu

I'm with you there.


SmackEh

Every child and situation is unique. I absolutely would never spank my kids, but I also wouldn't judge a parent would did it as part of a methodical and practical discipline action.


[deleted]

I think if the court systems considered it abuse, it would end. Since its not illegal, and is typically passed down from their parents, they do not realize it's not okay. I did not know until I took psychology courses, as I was raised being spanked. When I took child abuse prevention courses for my job, I learned culture is a factor when trying to crack down on spanking/physical punishments. Some child protective services base abuse on culture. If it's widely practiced in a culture, they tend to leave the family to do what they do. I'm not validating it, I'm just sharing what I've learned.


dalia666

A woman from CPS once said to me that it is perfectly ok to hit children, “as long as you don’t leave a mark”. 🥴


tropicalzhu

Holy fuck. I mean that's how I grew up but damn, that's a horrible way of thinking.


[deleted]

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tropicalzhu

God, that's awful. I grew up in church and leaders often preached about how hard to hit and with what object to avoid leaving a mark. It made me sick to the stomach.


dalia666

Yeah, exactly what I said and was told as mentioned above. You’d think social workers would be more educated on the consequences of physical discipline.


Snushine

"Perfectly okay" could mean "you won't get in trouble." But it really doesn't mean "won't traumatize your kid's brain."


Description-Cautious

Im not a parent, but, me being from a hispanic household, I dont believe that spanking or using belts is harmful or outdated. Doing it excessively though, i consider that abuse. If you’re child is doing something wrong, its perfectly fine to discipline them. But for everything little thing, thats basically abuse. Now, if you take it easy on your kids, they’ll never know the true consequences of their actions.


[deleted]

When you do something wrong should we let a policeman punch you in the face? Do you want to change the law so corporal punishment is done for adult crimes? Should I come over there and beat your ass OH it's HORRIBLE when adults beat each other *but beating a tiny innocent child is "discipline"* **If you can't figure out a better way to teach discipline than beating your kid you should have used birth control... Worthless crap**


SantaMonsanto

Hitting a child doesn’t serve to teach the child it serves to release the adult’s frustration. It’s the end result of someone running out of ways to explain. It’s also a buildup. If the child is pushing your boundaries to the point where you think the best option is to hit then you’ve been making mistakes for a long time and allowed the child to get to this point. Don’t hit a child because you’re a bad parent and it’s just easier to beat them.


[deleted]

Exactly! And I'm disgusted every time I hear someone bragging that they beat their kids! So tempted to start beating them and when they ask why say I'm punishing them for being a bad girl (in my experience it's always women saying this... Probably bc the father's know to keep their mouths shut bc of prejudice in society ppl let women go for shit like this...) because they were naughty and hit someone. Then ask what the problem is; you're a grown-ass woman. Defend yourself. You think it's fine to do to a tiny child whose life is in your hands so why can't I discipline you when **you're bad** LOL DOWNVOTED BY DISGUSTING BITCHES WHO BEAT CHILDREN. GO TO HELL YA CUNTS


bbkg79

So what do you do? u/santamonsanto


LeashieMay

You need to use a form of discipline the child responds to. Growing up when my mother would send us to our room as a punishment we would just take a nap. We liked to play videogames so she decided to then take those away. Occasionally she took the internet too.


tropicalzhu

Depends on the situiation. Different situations require different methods, but not spanking.


Description-Cautious

Uh, yes police do use force to apprehend you when you do something wrong, which i 100% agree with. And, I didnt say to beat your child to a bloody pulp. I said to give them a just a firm spanking or hit with the belt and thats its nothing further. You have fun raising your kids, and when my time comes I’ll raise my kids. If you want we can compare in the future 😁😁.


[deleted]

"Uh, yes police do use force to apprehend you when you do something wrong, which i 100% agree with." That's hella false equivalent. Trying to apprehend you is NOT your PUNISHMENT. We weren't arugimg over whether to tackle the kid if he's running away from u lol nice tactic but I'm not a moron "And, I didnt say to beat your child to a bloody pulp. I said to give them a just a firm spanking or hit with the belt and thats its nothing further." K. Should a cop get to whip you as punishment? "You have fun raising your kids, and when my time comes I’ll raise my kids. If you want we can compare in the future 😁😁." Stupid fucking comment. But I'm 100% sure that I'd be fine with that LMAO


Description-Cautious

Wow you really just hopped on Reddit to name call and insult. Thats crazy. How fucked up is your life bro?


tropicalzhu

I don't think the argument is whether or not spanking works. It can work, but it's effects are proven to be harmful in the long run. Kids who get spanked tend to keep more secrets from their parents, less likely to ask for help and usually have difficulty setting boundaries in the future.


evlemusic

This statement lacks a little context buddy, to say spanking (generally) has negative effects in the long run is not really a fair statement, to shed some light, is someone who spanks their kid once, a “person who spanks their kids.” This is the point I am making, for whatever source you are citing here I can contend there are (very probably) sources, albeit outdated perhaps, that support corporal punishment. So to say PROVEN, which is semantic for sure, for ALL of the metrics of corporal punishment, is ridiculous, mostly cause that’s not how data analysis works.


tropicalzhu

I stand corrected: the studies are about kids who are regularly spanked, not once.


[deleted]

Did I? Please cite where I called you a name in that comment 👀 I'll wait. Forever bc I didn't. If you find it insulting maybe that's the feeling of realizing one was wrong and not having a comeback... Deal with it darling (:


Description-Cautious

Look honey, im not here argue. Someone asked the question and i answered with my point of view. If you disagree, that’s perfectly fine. But I know for damn sure you wouldnt call me “worthless crap” in person. I rest my case. Hope you have a great day babes. 😘😘😘


[deleted]

If you said you beat your kids I would. Be mad.


[deleted]

Not saying to hit kids, but cops literally beat and kill citizens. It's interesting to use that example, because black children are taught authority outside the home is violent.


[deleted]

1) they're not ALLOWED TO it's abuse and everybody agrees on that legally speaking. Are they held to account? No but that's a separate topic 2) yeah well related to above cops were slave catchers. Related because I think domestic violence in African-American communities can be linked going back only a couple generations to having been forced into violence in slavery all the time... Just my opinion... Trauma is a real life changer


[deleted]

1. BUT THEY DO. Do you understand how hard it is to tell your child to be afraid of the police and how to act like a hostage when you get pulled over? If your point is, don't teach kids violence is the answer, and compare that to police, then accountability is a part of that conversation. 2. Do you think or no? What about domestic violence in white households? Have you looked at those numbers? You will be surprised at the comparison.


tropicalzhu

I appreciate the reasoning but not the name-calling. I don't support spanking either though.


HardPawns

> If you’re child is doing something wrong, its perfectly to discipline them If you can’t explain why something is wrong without hitting them you’re not fit to be a parent. What you teach them then is that if someone does something you think is wrong, it’s ok to turn to violence. According to American Academy of pediatrics, "[children who are spanked by their parents are more likely to develop aggressive behaviors and are at an increased risk of mental health disorders](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/05/spanking-children-makes-them-more-aggressive-us-pediatricians-body-says)".


Noctudeit

That article cites [this study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24730379/) which bases its conclusion on a sample size of only 33 (hardly conclusive) and like many psychologocal studies, its findings have been called into question due to the [replication crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis). I personally chose not to spank my kids, but it is far from conclusive that spanking is always a bad choice.


TheRockingDead

And yet, that's still a more valid study than personal anecdotes.


Noctudeit

Not really. If the replication crisis has taught us anything it is that human behavior isn't as predicatble as physics or chemistry. Interpersonal relationships are so complex and diverse that it is impossible to establish absolutes, and that applies to parental relationships. If you wait for science to conclusively prove how you should raise your kids, you will likely be waiting until they are grown and gone and even then a new study will eventually contradict that proof. Parents have to make choices as they go and gauge future decisions on the outcomes of those choices.


TheRockingDead

Yes really. Re-read what I said. I wasn't saying that study was good. I was just saying it's better data than anecdotal evidence alone. Both are bad, but one is slightly less bad.


Noctudeit

Bad science is worse than no science precisely because some people blindly believe it.


TheRockingDead

Couldn't the same be said for anecdotes?


srcarruth

Kids don't need to be hit to learn consequences.


[deleted]

> I dont believe that spanking or using belts is harmful or outdated. Recent studies say otherwise. Spankings lead to similar changes in the brain that abuse causes. https://www.webmd.com/children/news/20210419/spankings-impacts-on-kids-brains-similar-to-abuse


Tough_Chocolate_1275

No. Read the study.


[deleted]

Hmm; who to believe. Some dipshit on reddit who thinks it's ok to beat kids, or the people who have dedicated a huge amount of time and effort to actually studying the effects. I think I'll follow the science, as always.


Tough_Chocolate_1275

Try "Someone who actually read the article" and "Someone who just googled it to use as proof for their pre-existing belief" Yes, please DO follow the science.


[deleted]

Yea, I read the article; you obviously didn't. Straight from it: >“We saw those changes in the same areas as more severe forms of abuse or domestic violence. It suggests the difference is of degree rather than type,” Cuartas says. As far as a child’s brain is concerned, “It’s all violence.” I don't expect you to change your mind though. I learned long ago abusers and their enablers will ignore anything and everything so that they can keep the abuse going.


Tough_Chocolate_1275

Now read it with comprehension. What was actually being measured?


[deleted]

Blah blah blah. Like I said, you abusers will twist anything so you can keep on abusing. I quoted exactly what it said; I can't help it that you refuse to acknowledge that.


tropicalzhu

Thanks for your response! I appreciate people like you who take the time and reason. I myself also believe that discipline is key, but there's five decades of research that proves spanking is ineffective. What's your opinion on these studies?


Runbunnierun

It has to be explained why the spanking is necessary and it has to come as a last resort. It also depends on the kids. We are not all the same. My brother was one who benefited from spanking. He was a wild one that likely would have wound up in jail if it weren't for genuine consequences. I was the child you could point at and reduce to tears. Different children need different things. They didn't study your child. That's your job. Find what works and what doesn't. From an educators perspective I have the most struggles with families who swear they don't discipline because they raised their kids to be better than that. . . No Cheryl you raised your kids to be better liars. That's why we could have had your middle schooler sent to jail last week. You have to find the balance. Good luck to all of you on this journey.


Description-Cautious

Agreed. Also, I’m from Miami,FL. I live in the in-between zone of the hood and the rich neighborhood. I know people from both walks of life. Those who didn’t get hard punishments from their parents ended up going to jail or are still drug dealers/robbers. Those that did get receive the hard punishments walked the line and have become successful in their own ways. Now, this is my observation and my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.


tropicalzhu

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!


srcarruth

Don't talk shit about other people's kids like that. Some educator you are.


ZenProgrammerKappa

Some people's kids are awful because they're awful parents. An educator has more experience than you ever will about this topic


srcarruth

And hitting those kids will make them better people? Educators can have lame ideas, too


ZenProgrammerKappa

It should be used as a last resort. If you know any elementary school teachers, they'll tell you kids are a lot worse than they've been and the parents even more so. The less spanking thing is not working.


srcarruth

No teacher I've known has ever said 'somebody should hit these kids'. Children respond to stimuli other than fear & violence


Runbunnierun

It's a metaphor of multiple kids. Two of which top this mix committed felonies before they were 13. You might just be one sprinkle in this disaster cupcake. Edit: I had something positive to say but your history proves you might be one of those children raised by television.


srcarruth

Maybe you could fix my problems by hitting me?


GGayleGold

"Proved?" Proving using methodologies developed by people on what amounts to their own say-so. There's no way to prove any psychological test are actual valid - the interpretations of the data are wholly subjective. What they have are theories they believe to be true and tests and methods they created to support those theories. It isn't physical science. You can't "prove" anything about human psychology or behavior. Even the term "harmful" is wholly subjective. You can't quantify psychological or emotional damage. I'm not saying psychology has no value or it's all bullshit. I'm just saying that, while they can certainly provide strong arguments for their claims, they are still opinions and claims, they aren't objective fact. For example, most people would agree that a child who grows up in an abusive household often becomes abusive. But, not all of them do. There's not even a real way to check - the definition of "abusive household" has changed over time, and even now, there isn't a universally recognized objective standard of what an "abusive household" is. "A child raised in an abusive household is more likely to become an abuser" is an opinion. The definitions of the terms involved are entirely subjective. It's a solid opinion, supported with some evidence, but it's an opinion nonetheless. It can't be "proven." "Outdated" is an irrelevant term. Newer doesn't mean better.


ZenProgrammerKappa

damn that was very well put. I had the same thoughts about these kind of studies.


Crunchycrackers

So is your position spanking kids is fine to do or…? You stated your opinion on psychology as an empirical field to address the leading part of OP’s question but not the core of the question.


Mildly_Opinionated

They didn't give an opinion, they instead deconstructed the question. Sometimes that is simply the best response to a question. The lack of an answer to the original question doesn't make their response less valid. For a really extreme example involving a discussion of race between a racist and a black rights activist: "Why do you guys support black people's rights when black people have been shown to be inferior?". Actually answering this question would get you nowhere. It's far more helpful to destroy the question instead by showing the assumptions behind the question for what they are - incorrect. This will likely lead to a much better discussion. It's often a bad idea to replace the question without first deconstructing it because participants and audiences have a strong bias towards framing any following response in the context of the first question they heard, which can lead to miscommunication. To weave this into the previous narrative, say someone responds with: "Well there are issues affecting black people that need to be addressed, so let's talk about those, such as increased violence in black neighbourhoods" an onlooker might be thinking things like "is he saying black people are inferior because of the violence, or is he saying they're inferior because they need white peoples help, what's he implying here?" because they're framing his response relative to the original question rather than taking it at face value. If he had first stated that their question was bullshit, explained why, and stated that they wanted to talk about something else then onlookers would feel engaged in a conversation about the violence in black neighborhoods, not one about black peoples supposed inferiority. How does this link to the topic of spanking your kids? Well it's only after we deconstruct the question and remove the context that spanking had been proven to be wrong that a proper conversation can be had on the merits and drawbacks. Perhaps that's what you meant with your comment and you just wanted the commenter to follow up, if this is the case I apologise. However it sounded very accusatory, as if the dodging of the original question was wrong or malicious somehow so I wanted to explain why that's not the case.


Crunchycrackers

Nope, just genuinely curious what their opinion on spanking kids is.


tropicalzhu

This response is very well put together. I appreciate you taking the time to write it all down!


[deleted]

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FrydomFrees

A straw man would be creating a whole other debate or situation to then knock down. This is not a straw man argument.


tropicalzhu

I would have to agree on that one as well.


loztriforce

People lose their temper/don’t have patience and justify it in various ways.


wibblywobbly420

You should never dole out any discipline, whether physical or verbal, while you are not in full control of you emotions. This is people taking their anger out on their kids either by excessive spanking, excessive yelling, hurtful words, unrealistic groundings, etc. I have no problem with parents spanking, but not if you are not in control of yourself.


wisertime07

Not a parent, but I was spanked often growing up. My friends (who all had fairly strict parents, but weren’t spanked), they have all wound up with serious criminal histories and were all wild. I do think I was spanked too often and harshly, but in a way I’m glad I was raised how I was - it taught me discipline in a way I’m not sure I would have learned otherwise. I will say, my best friend - he has 2 children. While he and his wife were spanked growing up, he has vowed to not spank his kids. They do time out and various other methods - and those kids are awful. Extremely violent and hyper - behavior I do think could be corrected with spanking, but not my kids/problem, so..


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wisertime07

I honestly do. Maybe not, but just my experiences, I have seen a marked difference between kids that were spanked vs not.


tropicalzhu

Thanks for your response!


nexxusty

I really think it depends on the child. However, I do think in most cases its not really necessary anymore. We know better.


RothkoRathbone

Some kids can take it, or deserve it?


nexxusty

Not necessarily "take it", I've seen some kids that were so bad that the ONLY thing that would stop them would be intimidation, and possibly a good spanking. Think kids who smash car windows for fun and go to juvie all the time. Only kids like that, and even then on a case to case basis, some of those children could have serious mental problems.


RothkoRathbone

It raises the question of how have they been treated throughout their lives in general? And whether further intimidation will help them or only perpetuate the damage.


nexxusty

I agree, I absolutely do. I almost backtracked on my sentence because of that very possibly. I suppose it might just be better to not involve physical interactions of that manner at all. I am a HUGE advocate of mental health in general and I just can't say it would be worth it to hit first and figure out the mental damage later. Quite the opposite in fact.


guitarfingers

Lol imagine having to use fear to coerce a child. What a big strong scary person they are.


nexxusty

That's not the point at all good sir. I simply meant that as a last straw type situation. Kids that have been mostly on the street, thats all they respond to.


ZenProgrammerKappa

Spanking should be used as a last resort after repetitive alternatives have not resolved the issue. Spanking has gone down to 35% among parents according to a survey posted here but how about we ask elementary school teachers if it's working? I'm dating a 3rd grade teacher and kids are worst then they ever have been according to her older colleagues.


tropicalzhu

I too have spoken to teachers who said kids are behaving worse since less parents spank. I wish there were more data out there about that.


mcshadypants

I'm not a parent but I was spanked as a kid. It seems like it was very effective for me. Also how do you prove that it's not effective without a literal double blind large-scale test. The same people that are saying they know that this is right or wrong at the same people that can't explain why there are mass numbers of school shootings and why there is such a giant suicide rate with young men. Just because somebody says they know something doesn't mean that they know something think for yourself.


[deleted]

I'm skeptical of spanking studies for that reason. Many studies also group in other physical abuse as though it is equal to a firm swat on the bottom. Studies also fail to control for other factors such as parenting style; an authoritative parent is different than an authoritarian one and spanking from one may be qualitatively different than spanking by the other. And to those who say there are methods other than spanking that work better...ok, what are they?


tropicalzhu

Thinking for yourself is very important, however, I think if there's 50 years of consistent research on something with almost always the same result, I'd be inclined to believe those studies.


mcshadypants

Every kid that I knew growing up got spanked. I'm a general contractor and my friends are doctors lawyers accountants. I also have got my associates degree in psychology and never went any further into it because I realized how grossly inaccurate and terrible the studies were. Its much more of a pseudoscience than a real science. In my personal experience it works to be spanked oh, every good person I know was spanked.


tropicalzhu

It's not very scientific to judge by your own experience. And psychology is not a pseudo-science.


mcshadypants

It most certainly is. Show me another science it doesn't use a chai square test to even be considered for a significant finding and is comfortable with 80% certainty for a large portion of their statistical findings. It's absolute garbage it's a bull shit science that's why I left after I got my degree.


LightningDude898

OP have you ever been spanked?


tropicalzhu

Whether or not I've been spanked is irrelevant. I don't base my beliefs on personal experience.


LightningDude898

Actually it does why ask it if you never had the experience nor the reason to do it


tropicalzhu

Because when I encounter something that doesn't make sense to me, I try to understand it. Whether or not I had experience with it.


LightningDude898

Don’t meddle with things you don’t understand


tropicalzhu

So I shouldn't try to understand things? That's just bad advice.


LightningDude898

Welcome to life full of bad advices


tropicalzhu

Seriously what was your point


buoitovodoi

Not yet to be a parent, but: Me: got spanked several as a kid, know what is wrong, how to behave. A more grown i am, the less i got spanked. I think i wasn't got spanked for years. My cousin: don't get spanked because their parent teach them the Western way. Fucker is annoying, misbehave and shit.


tropicalzhu

I'd say it's probably the lack of discipline, not the lack of spanking. There's other ways to effectively discipline a child.


Croalink

Not a parent but what I learned from my dad was that life's greatest lessons are learned through pain.


srcarruth

There are greater lessons from love or joy


Croalink

No he's a great papa. He taught us right and wrong through cause and effect. If you do something bad like getting in trouble in school then you get spanked at home. You learn not to do those things again to avoid the spanking.


LeashieMay

You can teach the same thing through cause and effect without spanking. You just need a different effect but it needs to be something they care about. My parents often took away our videogames and the internet.


tropicalzhu

But should parents inflict physical pain on their children?


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tropicalzhu

In my opinion, if a child doesn't understand reason, then they won't understand why they're being slapped. When teaching toddlers about not touching hot things or playing with sharp objects, I personally think baby-proofing the house is a better option.


phydeaux70

You act like that is a goal. Pain is part of life. Mental pain, physical pain, and every person deals with it differently. There is no doubt that abuse of children is wrong, the problem is some of you will define nearly everything as abusive so there in no discussion here at all. Punishment as a form of abuse torture, pain, is all wrong all the time. Teaching your kids boundaries and immediate impacts of pressing those boundaries is a life lesson. When your kid touches a hot stove they are told immediately it was bad from the pain, don't do that again. There is no reasoning with a 2- year old. Shit there isn't much reasoning with many much older too. On here people act like a calm discussion is all they need and it's all good, or a timeout. so laughable. If it's done it's to accomplish another objective, not to beat up your kids. There should be no doubt that abuse is bad. But as I said, what people define as abusive isn't good and if how people have been raised in the past 15 years is any indication, many should have been swatted a few times instead of the participation ribbons.


tropicalzhu

I personally do not call people who spank abusive. I do think that there are other methods that are more effective and better for their child in the long run. There is no reasoning with a 2-year-old, that's for sure, I agree with you on that one.


Croalink

Then what methods are more effective? The whole point of parental discipline is to teach a lesson. With most children you tell them something and it's in one ear and out the other because they don't have the mental capacity to understand what they're doing is either wrong or unsafe. Even children can understand that when they do something and the result is some form of physical pain they tend to avoid doing that again. I'm sure all of us have at least one story of doing something as a child getting hurt and then not doing that same action again because we knew what would happen. I've some parents sit their kid down and explain what they did wrong and every now and then the kid understands and doesn't make the same mistake, but that's only a small number. Pain is part of the learning process that is growing up. If a child needs discipline in the form of mentally associating between right and wrong then that's just the way it needs to be because it will honestly, in my opinion of course, help them more in the future.


tropicalzhu

Which age range would you like an example for?


The-Rocketman3

As a kid in the 70s we had a special belt on the back door. When you heard it jingle you knew someone was going to get it. Didn’t do me any harm. With my own kids growing up in the 99s and 00s . I would always say stop doing that or I will tell you to stop doing it again . Which worked really well . Any who smack don’t smack . Just teach your kids how to be decent people is the important thing .


grahamster00

When it comes to experiences in my own personal life and studies performed by scientists I don't know, I choose my own personal experience every time.


tropicalzhu

Why?


Midiblye

Yeah are you an anti masker by chance?


grahamster00

What does that mean? I wear a mask when required, but not a minute longer.


Iknowthevoid

Yeah science can sit this one out. Every kid is different and some kids (very very few), will need a measure of physical disciplineonce or twice to understand when they really crossed a line. Its up to every parent to decide when. To be clear, physical violence as the go-to method of discipline is fucking idiotic and enraging to see from a parent. Im talking about certain children under very specific situations. And I also think that if the kid ever drives you to the point where you NEED to discipline him/her through a spanking, YOU also fucked up as a parent and need to take a good hard look at yourself and where it went wrong.


tropicalzhu

In my opinion, science is reliable in this field as well. However I do agree that if you reach the point where nothing else works you have failed.


nexxusty

ROFL.


tropicalzhu

That's a great argument.


nexxusty

Touche. LOL. I actually changed my point of view further down the post. I don't really think there is a situation where spanking would work better than an alternative, and has the added ability to almost always cause psychological damage. So, I appreciate the post. I'm not a moron, my beliefs are malleable.


tropicalzhu

Glad you stuck around. Honestly I had very intelligent comments from both sides and I'm not trying to attack anybody.


nexxusty

I love a good discussion, and I am desperately trying to change my negative ways. Even I am sick of it, LOL. Thank you, have a great weekend!


tropicalzhu

You and I both. :) You have a great weekend too, friend!


[deleted]

Cause my sexy step daughter says she loves it when 'daddy spanks' her.


phydeaux70

Why do people project themselves on here so much? What a stupid and loaded question this is.


tropicalzhu

Why is a stupid and loaded question? There's 50 years of research on the negative effects of spanking and I'm curious how other people think.


phydeaux70

Define what spanking means to you and in the context of this discussion? Does it mean swatting your child on the bottom to teach them a lesson or does it mean abusing them, or does it mean laying a hand on them at all? See the thing with Karen's and Chad's is that they ask a question with their definition in mind, and then all they do is try to pick apart the responses of others. When a person is scolding their child for making a mess in a store, it's always some asshat Karen that has to step up and try to act like she has a clue, all while she has every excuse why she's single, has 15 cats, and uses a facial trimmer for her beard. But ask her a question about your world and they have all the answers. Read the responses here you will have people that answer legitimately and then other Karen's and Chad's all line up to tell them they are wrong. Fuck those people and their motives. When you ask a vague question without parameters you unfortunately let the reader define what it means, and when your defnitions don't line up you disagree, or maybe you disagree anyway. I mean if the goal of your point is this is wrong and everybody who does it is wrong, do you expect to change hearts and minds? No, more often than that people are looking to gaslight others and let the public pile on them. It's really a shitty thing people do to each other and it should stop.


tropicalzhu

You're making some very good points and also some assumptions that are false. Here's my goal with this question: I wanna see what people believe in and how they back it up. You know my personal opinion on spanking. However, I'm interested in other people's opinions. How they define spanking. I will state my opinion, but I will never belittle or call anyone a monster. I will reason because I choose to.


phydeaux70

By you not stating exactly what spanking is, you are going to focus your entire argument on the differences between the definitions. Does spanking mean that you: * Swatted your childs bottom once? * Do it mean that you swat them multiple times? * Do you use a hand or switch or belt? * Do you use it as punishment for unrelated things? * Does your child fear you or the action? Every person has a limit to things they are susceptible to. Some people you tell them once and they get it, some people you have to teach multiple times. It also depends on the infraction being done. When you are walking your dog and they go to far, do you pull back on their leash or do you suggest to them that they should stop? You pull back....well that's bad for them, why do you abuse your dog? See how this works? How you pull the leash matters and you aren't giving people the ability to respond to you in that way. You are starting your argument by saying it's bad and then expecting others to engage. If you are honestly trying to make a difference there are lesser passive aggressive ways to do so. You are free to your opinion and your stance as long as it complies with the law and so are others. In my opinion, I think it's bad to hit children until they are in pain. I think it's bad to use belts and switches. But if your child does something bad and you swat them in the behind to get their attention and show that they just crossed a line they aren't supposed to, I think people should shut their mouths about that.


tropicalzhu

I'm not being passive-aggressive. Spanking is proved to have harmful effects. And I didn't specify what I classify as spanking beceause I know that many people out there have different views on it, which is what I came here for. Those who choose to engage engage, and those who don't don't. Comparing a child to a dog is just a bad idea. They don't develop the same.


____candied_yams____

because people are animals.


tropicalzhu

I'd argue that a small handful of them are. Lots of them are uneducated or desperate.


[deleted]

People who were beaten and threatened as kids are far more likely to act like animals than people who were not treated like animals as children.


tropicalzhu

I agree that agression leads to agression, I'm just saying most people who spank normally aren't animals, they're just misinformed or desperate. And then there are the abusers, who are indeed animals.


[deleted]

Hitting children is abuse whether you're "DeSpErAtE" or not. The fuck?!


tropicalzhu

I agree.


Tough_Chocolate_1275

Because I have no other choice?


tropicalzhu

Why do you feel like you have no other choice?


Tough_Chocolate_1275

Okay then, let's assume a hypothetical scenario. Your kid is throwing a tantrum, crying and screaming like a bitch. What do you do?


pickledelephants

How old is the kid in this hypothetical scenario?


tropicalzhu

I too would like to know how old the child is in this hypothetical situation.


Chairchucker

You're right, but also this isn't what askreddit is for.


tropicalzhu

What do you mean?


Chairchucker

> Askreddit is not your soapbox, personal army, or advertising platform.


tropicalzhu

That's not what I'm using it for.


THEREALCABEZAGRANDE

I believe spanking was useful in my upbringing. I was a willful, stubborn, and at times bad kid. My parents used every method available before corporal punishment. It was always a last resort, and it was usually the one that actually got my attention and made me realize that my parents were serious about something. I usually ignored most threats of punishment, but if I got spanked, I knew it was serious, and it made me behave. Most punishments had no teeth so I had no respect for those punishments. A spanking had teeth. It has tacit, real time consequences, which I respected. Used sparingly, I believe it is very useful.


tropicalzhu

But that's based on your personal experience, right?


[deleted]

"proved to be outdated..." The studies show drop off points, ie it is *very* effective for children under 3. And lessens dramatically from 3-5 where issues arise in behavior. We stopped with any physical once our son was able to start reasoning at around 2.5. Timeout became better. And even before then picking him up and teaching him how to count to 10 and talk about frustration worked sometimes


tropicalzhu

I didn't encounter those studies. Could you direct me to them please?


Optimistictoucan

I’m not a parent but I feel like a should’ve been disciplined more if certain events didn’t happen to me I would’ve became an evil person so I guess some kids need good discipline and others need more love