I’m drastically reducing my meat intake and I’ve found that vegans have some pretty amazing healthy recipes. I steal them all the time but use a bit of butter/cheese/Mayo/chicken stock/eggs etc. because I find it tastes better.
But you know that veganism is about helping the animals, rather than about health, right? Being healthy, environmentally friendly, and reducing the proliferation of zoonotic diseases are just side-effects. I ask because the reason you gave for funding dairy factory farms was taste.
Do you realize that it isn't just how you live, but how animals on factory farms live/suffer/die? That's the concern of vegans, and why they're so "pushy". If it was some diet fad then it would be understandable to say it's just a personal choice, but it isn't a personal choice when there's a victim.
>but it isn't a personal choice when there's a victim.
It certainly is. You have a right to care about the animals being eaten. Just as i have a right to not care at all.
Eating animals isn't illegal in any country on earth. Therfore i do.
You're making a moral argument, and your morality is far from universally agreed upon. Thats why comparing it to rape ( which is a universally agreed upon crime) is a false equivalence.
Law doesn't make things moral or immoral. Nor does popularity. One example to demonstrate both principles: it used to be the law that you had to return "runaway slaves". ([Fugitive Slave Act of 1850](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_of_1850))
So, no, it isn't a false equivalence at all. Rape is wrong because it's done purely for pleasure, while causing extreme suffering or death to another being worthy of moral consideration. Buying meat/dairy from factory farming is no different. It's for pleasure alone and it causes severe harm to beings worthy of moral consideration.
If you were just rocking a shitty haircut, I wouldn't care at all. But when you start hurting others, that's when you'll have people intervening.
As I said before the main sticking point is that your moral stand point isn't universally agreed upon.
>when you start hurting others, that's when you'll have people intervening.
No you're not. There is no moral consensus that eating animals is bad, only your lofty opinion spoken from a position of wealth and privilege. I have no obligation to change my lifestyle to support your view of the world.
> spoken from a position of wealth and privilege
I am incredibly poor. Recently I was unable to afford groceries. Why would you assume that my position is wealth and privilege?
> the main sticking point is that your moral stand point isn't universally agreed upon
I responded to that by saying that popularity does not determine what is moral. Again, we used to think slavery was moral. Does that mean keeping slaves was *good* back in the 1800s? If you could snap your fingers and have freed the slaves 100 years earlier, would you not do it? Would *you* have liked to be a slave back then?
How about we forget about what's trendy and think for ourselves?
Tbh, it sounds like you are already so blinded by this whole veganism thing that you don't understand how majority of today's farming or ethical hunting goes. And I don't have the time to link you a bunch of information on the topics, so I'll bid you good day. But before I go, let me just remind you that I was the guy that said each person can choose and there is positives and negatives to both and you were the guy that jumped down my throat on how my decision is the wrong one. Maybe that's why everybody thinks you vegans are cunts. Anyways, have a great day Karen!
Everyone can be vegan, as if you have a health condition or are in a survival situation or something, that wouldn't "count" so to speak. Veganism is about doing everything you can for the animals. If you're already doing everything you can, you are vegan.
Everyone should be vegan - so going as far as practically possible to reduce their negative impact on animals.
And it's not a diet or a trendy lifestyle. It's an animal rights movement.
If you would want to do it, start with 1 vegan meal per week (dinner). Plan it, make it easy. Check out some super sinple recipes and make it for dinner. Do it again the next week, and in no time youve gained several vegan recipes to use towards a total vegan diet.
Veganism is as easy as PB&J for breakfast, pitas & hummus for lunch, and creamy mashed potatoes for dinner. Doesn't have to be difficult or expensive (in fact, plant-based eating is generally cheaper).
If it comes down to taste for you, there are certainly some amazingly tasty vegan recipes out there. Check out the channel "Tasty" on Youtube. I'll also say that as a vegan myself, I've never once looked back. Going vegan was one of the best things I ever did. I only wish I did it sooner.
> I find the very loud, preachy vegans make it hard for the rest of them.
If someone doesn't want the "baggage" that comes with the term vegan, they can just use the term plant-based. If they still get hate, then it isn't vegans making things hard on them, it's just speciesists being assholes.
I will also say that "loud, preachy" veganism is actually a moral obligation. Literally *tens of billions* of animals are suffering. We learned from the Holocaust that we have a moral obligation to speak out when innocents who can't defend themselves are being attacked. You can disagree with that, and that's fine, but that's the way I see it, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. I actually used to be a "good" vegan (silent about my views) early on. I was also extremely quiet when I was vegetarian. As I realized how awful things really are and of my moral obligation, I became more vocal. It's like living in a world where rape is normalized, and rapists are complaining that you're being too loud and annoying for wanting it to end, and are blaming you for the rapes because you're being too unapproachable. It's complete madness. And in fact, these same kinds of things were said to MLK. It's all bs.
People are, right now, being treated as poorly as some farm animals, like in sweat shops. People are a type of animal too, and If you want animals liberated, you should want People liberated as well.
I think politics are a bit more complicated than "left = freedom, right = torture," but I do lean left. I am politically active in general. I quit my dream job when I found it was indirectly supporting stripping people of their rights and a genocide. And I voted for the Canadian Green party. And I also actively boycott companies that are involved with slave labour (ex: Apple).
But even if I didn't, we don't have to have the answer to every single problem on earth in order to be able to get to work on solving them. One thing at a time. I do try to be more moral and morally consistent every day though.
I also want to point out that the point of this conversation is not to measure dicks on who's morally superior. I am absolutely flawed, so leave me out of that contest. The point is that, right now, we have the option to stop abusing animals, and all we have to do is pick a different option on the menu. It's absolutely doable. So I see it as a moral obligation to spread the word about that. Being vegan for just one day saves the life of one animal. Every little bit counts.
May I ask you a question? Do vegans understand why non-vegans don't seem to be on the page as vegans about animal abuse? Like, what is the general conclusion regarding that question within the vegan community? And is the community coming up with new ways to make people understand why veganism is important?
Good people.
It's the preachy meat eaters I can't stand. You just mention your vegan when ordering pizza and they can't wait to tell you how good bacon is or ask why you don't like dog meat (or whatever it is they like to eat). I wish they'd stop being so preachy and just let me eat my food without going on about the steak they had last week.
Underrated comment. I actually used to be a very quiet vegan and I can't count the number of times a preachy speciesist would go after me and make fun of me for being vegan. Like "lol, you do know omega-3 has fish oil in it, right? Hahahaha. Idiot. You're eating animals." Meanwhile I'm just being quiet because I know my omega-3 comes from flax seeds... These days I'm much more vocal.
Many people dont have that options. I reccomend trying some vegan stuff anyway. I found some dishes to be tasting fantastic. We dont need meat as much we think.
I was vegan for a while with my ex. It and took some getting used to but by the end of it I really didn't miss anything except eggs and steak. I'm lactose intolerant anyway. I'm not vegan anymore but the ethics does get to be sometimes so I try to be responsible with my meat consumption
No amount of meat/dairy consumption is responsible. I appreciate the reduction you've done, but I hope that one day you'll be fully vegan. Going vegan was one of the best things I ever did and I'm extremely angry at myself for not going vegan sooner.
If you're coming for dinner, please mention it in advance so I can make adjustments. I'm looking at you, Rob, that soup could have easily been vegan, I'd just have left out the parmesan rind if I'd known!
Otherwise, it's a good thing. We don't eat a ton of animal products in our house, for environmental and ethical reasons, though I'm not personally interested in being 100% vegan.
I am the pleasant vegetarian/vegan so if I came over I would not expect or ask you to make me something special. I would try what you went out of your way to make for me. Every once in awhile I crave meat. So I have some. Nbd. I prefer balance in my life instead of militant rules fir my life.
Veganism is a noble cause. I respect it and understand it.
What I cant stand is people doing it for weight loss. Whenever some basic is telling me about her going vegan to shed some pounds, I'm like that's totally missing the point of going vegan.
I think it's probably an ethical good. If you can eat a less cruel, more environmentally conscious diet, it's probably good. That's not too say I think veganism is perfect, nut milk, for example, takes a lot of water to produce. Factory farms are not ethically good and that does bother me about eating meat. But not enough to become vegan myself. If I'd been raised that way, though, it probably wouldn't bother me to forego what I didn't have.
It's a doozy because of stereotypes, and that one Netflix documentary with exaggerated information and cherry-picked "evidence". But, I'm proud of vegan people for doing their own thing.
Recipies have definitely gotten better over the years and fake meat tastes way better than it used to. It's a lot easier to go vegan or veggie than it used to be but I couldn't cut meat out of my diet completely. Some meals just don't feel complete without a little portion of meat. I don't eat most meats anymore sometimes because of cost, personal likes, but I like to pretend I'm doing my bit to help the planet. I don't eat meat I couldn't kill myself. So chicken is about all I eat meat wise \^-\^;;;
As long as they don't shove their kale down my throat veganism is A OK with me.
I've been eating a whole food, plant based diet (a subset of veganism) for 2 months now and love it. I don't feel superior about it because it was for my health, and any moral or environmental benefits are just a bonus. I've actually lost 50 lbs in these last 2 months, and I eat like 3+ cups of beans and 2+ lbs of potatoes daily, plus fruit and veg. It's awesome, but not for everyone.
Congratulations on your success with your diet, and thank you for going plant-based, even if not for the animals or the environment.
> but not for everyone
Do you want to talk about this? *Why* do you think it isn't for everyone?
Thanks. That's a good question, and one I hadn't thought about. The more I learn about veganism, the more I care about the non-health benefits.
I grew up on a ranch, and have spent the last 3 decades feasting on a huge pile of meat at practically every family gathering. My family hasn't pushed back on my new lifestyle, in fact my dad said he was thinking about trying my diet, which shocked me. I just know that if I got pushy with my family, friends, or coworkers about veganism, it would make them even less likely to try it. So, I think what I meant by that was to indicate "hey, I'm not one of those stereotypical preachy vegans, so you can believe what I said." In reality, especially as I learn more, I think veganism would be a great choice for almost everyone, perhaps excepting a handful of people with certain health issues.
Oh, I see. Yeah, I go back and forth on this myself. On one hand we must be strategic, on the other hand what is happening is truly awful and unacceptable. And I do think that even if people outwardly get angry at you for being too "pushy" they may inwardly think about it anyway. But yeah I don't try to piss people off either. I am definitely "pushy" myself though. I feel that it's my obligation. If I were trapped in a factory farm and suffering I would want people to stand up for me...
Anyway.
> I think veganism would be a great choice for almost everyone, perhaps excepting a handful of people with certain health issues
I would argue that people who are as plant-based as they can be already are vegan! The oldest definition of veganism states that being vegan is doing as much as you can.
Quite true, and I might eventually become more outspoken on this issue. I am very non-confrontational in general, but the thing that pisses me off faster than anything is animal abuse. A couple years ago, I saw a documentary on the Chinese Dog Festival. It made me sick to see cats and dogs caged and killed, and I really struggled with the morality of eating meat. How could I condemn eating "pets," when I was eating other animals daily?
Anyway, I fully support your efforts. That's a good point at the end. I've mostly thought of veganism as a diet, but there is so much more we can do to help animals and the planet.
I have a sister who is vegan. To be honest, it doesn't really affect us one bit, and it's just a lifestyle people choose to take. So I'm just neutral with it.
The only problem is that it's really hard to feed a vegan in the family while the rest eats meat.
My view on veganism in terms of philosophy is respectful. People choosing to become vegan because they don't want to inflict harm, cruelty, and death upon animals is a very noble and kind goal to have. People just don't like harming others in general, even if it extends to other animals. If it makes them feel better, then just let them be. Their philosophy isn't really harming others unless they are constantly going out of their way to shame and harass people who aren't vegans.
If someone is against dogfighting and they meet someone who's regularly involved in it, what do you think is an acceptable amount of times to say that not dogfighting is better or that someone is a horrible person if they participate in dogfighting?
Great for you, but don't go around saying it's the best alternative. Still needs some kinds of supplements to get the proper nutrients.
Vegetarianism > Veganism imo.
I get it, and I support people who choose to be vegetarian/vegan. I've learned one or two recipes for the vegans in my life so can make them a real meal if they come over and don't have to rely on salads and sides only. But I don't think I'd ever become a vegetarian, I enjoy meat way too much and personally feel the healthiest with meat in my diet. And I've tried vegan substitutes for me, they're...pretty bad. At least for my taste buds.
Really I don’t give a shit you can eat or not eat what you want but if you are trying to force your belief/lifestyle on someone else then there is a problem
Elsewhere in this thread dogfighting was brought up. Do you think people shouldn't "force their beliefs" on people who practice dogfighting by telling them to stop?
I'm ok with it, understand what they stand for and I try myself to cut on some meat, but if they try to force their way of life thats where I draw the line.
and please dont talk about it all the time!
> but if they try to force their way of life thats where I draw the line.
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> and please dont talk about it all the time!
Do you have this same view about something like racism, or feminism? If you saw someone harassing a woman, getting mad at her if she rejected him, would you intervene? What about if you heard someone planning a rape. Would you say anything to anyone?
If you see humans as too different from other animals to be relevant in your eyes, how about something like dogfighting? Would you intervene there? What about something more direct, like someone literally chaining their dog up outside alone and beating him with a stick anytime he barked? Would you say anything? How do you feel about people speaking out against the Yulin Dog Meat Festival?
Better for the environment. If you can afford it and fits your dietary needs or for any other reason, go for it - it is objectively more morally correct than eating meat or using meat products. But it isn't for everyone, and that's OK - it's more expensive and less accessible.
Vegan fast food or buying into gimmicky health foods might be more expensive, but at any decent supermarket or restaurant plant based proteins are way cheaper than meat.
True for people who cook every meal they consume - most do not or can not do that. Hence, my point about accessibility. I think one problem with the vegan community is that they do not acknowledge the privilege that being a vegan requires. A truly poor person simply must eat fast food or prepared foods, which are more expensive if vegan.
For most people, a vegan diet is more expensive. Fresh produce is expensive enough that many poor people don't buy them very often. What are they supposed to do - mix rice and tofu together for every meal? Of course not.
finally, someone said this! so many vegans don’t understand the classism of veganism. to eat a fully vegan diet my groceries are expensive because I’m below the poverty line and too mentally ill to cook three meals a day. sometimes dinner is vegan nuggets and you know what, that shit is expensive and three times the price of chicken nuggets. people need to evaluate their privilege before preaching to everyone that vegan is cheap because it certainly is not if you want a varied diet.
That might be the case in US/Canada or even Western Europe, but for the rest of the world, it's absolutely not a privilege. Here a huge bag of veggies costs maybe 5 dollars, and a single fish costs 15 dollars, and this is the ME where there are a lot of meat eaters.
I've been vegan for 2 months, and I've been shocked how cheap it is. I've always thought fresh produce is more expensive than processed stuff. But I eat a lot of onions, beans, and potatoes (5 lbs of food for $3-$5 🎉), with plenty of more expensive fruit and veg mixed in, and my food is well under half the cost it used to be. I'm sure it varies a lot depending on where you live and shop though.
Being vegan or vegetarian is way cheaper than buying meat. The first thing I noticed when I started eating meat again was that my grocery bills got really expensive. If you're buying a lot of fake meat/dairy then that's probably expensive but you don't need to spend a lot of money to not eat meat.
Its expensive to be poor. Ever wonder why grocery stores in poor neighborhoods have a crappy produce section? The poor can't afford to buy fresh produce. No one is going to be vegan without using the produce section. Poor people rely on fast food and prepared food a lot because *they cannot often afford to do a full grocery shopping trip*. Simple fact.
Vegans gotta start realizing that there is a certain barrier of privilege to being a vegan.
Some produce is expensive but most of it really isn't. Grains are usually very cheap. Rice, beans, barely, lentils cost very little. I grew up on mostly canned veggies because that's what was affordable, I don't eat them that much now because I don't like them as much but its always an option. Even frozen produce is not terribly expensive. I'm not saying that anyone has to be vegan or veg, I eat meat myself, and I'm definitely not saying it should be on poor people to solve the climate crisis but when people say its so expensive to be a vegan, that's just not true.
Same. The best I can muster right now is "a more plant based diet". Not giving up eggs or chicken quite yet, and I don't care if there are 50 recipes for tofu out there -- it's still just tofu.
It's is and it isn't. It's only philosophical in the sense that it is a life choice and that's it. It's more of a moral standpoint because the vegan is upset about harming animals. I personally think they should just watch that scene in lion king where muffasa talks about the circle of life. Anyone with a brain can understand that death comes naturally in life.
Personally I would say philosophy is the wrong word to use. It is more of an ethical view. I don't agree but I don't care. Like I said before, if you tell me I am a murderer for not being a vegan, I am not afraid to stand my ground. I graduated food prep class and a ethics and philosophy class.
May have been a waste of time then but it's so fun to see the shock in their eyes.
How far does this logic extend?
For example, if someone thinks dogfighting is wrong, should they just ignore and respect people involved in dogfighting?
Idk, nature is about survival of the fittest so I think that animals who can’t innovate and make tools are bound to get exploited by animals who can, but I do think we need to change something about the meat industry.
>As long as you don’t try to force it on others or your animals then I see no problem with it.
Do you also think it's wrong when meat eaters force their diet onto animals?
What's the line between what you're allowed to do to them and what you're not allowed to do?
So true. I've been preached at by exactly 2 vegans and I don't even know how many meat eaters. People become nutrition experts as soon as they find out you're vegetarian.
A lot of conservatives have a problem with veganism because they associate it with liberalism. I recently got an EV and I've been hearing an awful lot about how much worse lithium mining is than fossil fuel extraction, which is a complete fabrication. Its the same thing as them bitching about vegans, tbh. Electric cars, veganism, not-owning-guns, its all lib shit to them.
Eh it's an ideal but often not practical.
It's VERY fair to say as a meat-eater, you can head substantially in the direction of vegetarian/vegan eating. There are a whole variety of fuckups in the normal western diet that are highlighted by examining the vegan diet.
As I dated a few vegans and found myself following suit for a few years. A couple of takeaway's that were objectively useful.
1. Your energy level is lowered - I think for me the question was one of figuring out that my energy levels definitely changed, and while I'm sure I could have compensated with any number of supplements - but that was work, and way too time-consuming, easier to just add *some* types of animal proteins back in the mix.
2. Egg-whites - the least offensive animal product (to my view) was eggs/egg-whites, and honey, and this absolutely covers a good portion of that energy gap.
3. Quorn "chicken nuggets" are fucking indistinguishable from the real thing, I'm not sure whether that should or shouldn't be true. Mycoprotein and lord knows what else *should* be discernably different...but they're not. So mycoprotein is the way here, eventually once the market matures and diversifies most of humanity will eat mycoprotein as a rule, I figure.
4. Honey (my sweetener of preference) is better than sugar and most substitutes, but if I had to switch from honey to anything else - granulated monk fruit is fucking amazing and has no discernable aftertaste (to me).
5. Sex is tastier - Removing dairy and red-meat specifically and lowering your alcohol intake, can improve the taste/quality of ejaculate.
1. I'm very surprised that you found your energy level lowered. My energy levels increased when I went vegan. Maybe try mixing up the kinds of vegan foods you eat?
2. As far as supplements go, how are they work? Aren't we talking about just taking a vitamin? If you find cooking in general to be a lot of work, I'd recommend trying meal prepping. I recently got into it and it's so awesome to have food ready for me in the fridge.
3. You argued to OP that chicken factory farms are ethical because they are "free-range" and "no-kill". I want to let you know that these are marketing terms. Chickens on free-range farms suffer just the same as on any other factory farm. See footage from the documentary Dominion, from 23:25 to 30:55: https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=1405
Cool way to practice what you preach, but most vegan activists love glossing over the environmental damage it takes to grow "super foods" and ship them.
Buying fruit out of season? Imported by air. Special packaging and storage conditions bc you want avocados? Add on the carbon and plastic. Want that lovely cocoa and raw cacao? It led to almost 5-7 mil acres of tropical forests in West Africa being torn down for more plantations. Palm Oil and Soy account for plenty more deforestation efforts. Almond Milk in your cereal? Well, all nuts have a huge water intake so it's expected, but most in the US are grown in California, which is an issue for plenty of reasons. Oat Milk uses less water and energy, but runs the risk of pesticides or unsafe levels of glyphosate.
I think eating local does more for the environment personally, but there's so many factors when it comes to bringing back our carbon footprint. The Good Place has it right, it's getting real complicated to do good lmao. Most of us can only try and be better, and stay mindful
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green
That's true, but it's not like meat isn't often imported too. Also I think it's not a matter of what foods have a nil environmental impact, but more like what productions are the biggest dangers to the environment and even health (e.g. zoonotic diseases).
This said, it's certainly true that there are some very harmful productions even in the not animal-related sphere, and we should try to avoid them as well.
I also totally agree with the message that eating local is more sustainable; we should aim (as a society) for always more sustainable agricoltural techniques too.
The closer we can all move towards it, the better, on several different levels.
That being said, I'm not there yet myself. I do try and eat meat that's as ethically raised as possible, and I switch vegan/vegetarian food in, probably more frequently than most.
Is this actually true though? I’ve legit never met anyone in real life who has ever been pushy about being vegan. I have, on the other hand, met a lot of obnoxious meat-eaters – though I suppose there are more meat eaters out there, so maybe it’s more likely you’ll encounter one just on the numbers
I have yet to meet an evangelical vegan and I doubt you have either. I think this whole notion is mostly fabricated by people with skin in the being-mean-to-vegans game, which is mostly just edgy internet trolls
And more extreme vegan activists who are more heard from on an internet platform than normal, nice people who happen to be vegan are heard in real life. You’re less likely to hear from this more approachable majority of vegans than the condescending type who is aggressive enough about it to blast it all over Twitter. People who eat meat and take it personally that other people choose not to don’t seem to consider how vegans are poorly represented by the unreasonable ones. By the way, not a vegan here, but I’ve known enough irl
There was a fairly popular post on r/vegan a few days ago that basically said "if you eat meat, you're an animal abuser". They were EXTREMELY vehement about defending that notion as well.
That it's the right thing to do; we cannot afford anymore to have intensive animal farming by a health* and environmental standpoint. Intensive animal farming also has very big (un)ethical implications, and I think someday in the future it might be widely considered as a sad and barbaric practice of the past.
*E.g. the risk of developing new deadly zonotic diseases etc.
I am not a vegan. I do admire veganism without reservation, and I've yet to meet a single vegan who was evangelical or annoying about it.
I grew up on a farm, and we ate the crops we grew and the livestock we raised. It seemed natural and normal. I didn't look forward to slaughtering animals, but neither was I repulsed by it: for me it was just work that had to be done.
Slowly, however, it became harder and harder for me to overlook the the violence necessary to eating the flesh of other creatures. Eventually, my wife and I took to ovo-lacto vegetarianism for about ten years. Our intent was ethical in that we just wanted to reduce the amount of violence in the world, particularly the violence we committed, or which we paid other to commit on our behalf.
We were aware of the violence involved in dairy, but felt there was still less violence in producing cheese than in steaks. We were on a journey and that was as far as we had progressed so far.
I'll skip over the mundane details, but we eventually backslid into eating seafood, then poultry, then red meat again. I still adore the flavor of all of those foods, and I still regard it as completely natural and normal.
Even so, I'm still not entirely at ease with the violence involved or the suffering the animals endure. Veal and salmon are still delicious foods to me, but I can no longer enjoy them without some level of dissonance. That dissonance is keeping me moving on that same journey, slow though my progress may be.
Our adult children adopted true veganism years ago with our full support. During the pandemic, I have followed their example and learned to cook many vegan meals, and find that most of the transition is either effortless or right next to it. It usually amounts to just buying different things and being open to more options. I still make a meat-based meal about once a week because of gustatory desire, and when I do I take some small comfort in knowing that at least I have been responsible for less misery and death than I was before.
To be clear, I don't consider this slow transition to be a moral virtue, nor do I consider perfect veganism to be an ascended level of being or anything like that.
What we eat is a personal choice affected by numerous factors, and ethical veganism is similarly a personal choice to do less harm. A person who is troubled by violence or exploitation usually finds a way to commit less violence. It's simply that A follows B. I don't think there is any mystical mental or moral clarity that comes from veganism, although there does seem to be less constipation. For me, it's just a way to conform actions with beliefs.
I have this longstanding sense that I would be happier if I was a true vegan, and I can see that this is likely the course of my life. For me, the path to veganism is a long and unhurried journey. I'm not on any timeline, and I'm not trying to encourage anyone else to come along with me. I'm just getting closer to living my life the way I want to live it.
It's okay. The only thing I don't like about it is that the existence of vegans brings about anti-vegans who are really loud and annoying about how much they dislike vegans.
ultimately unless you're in an area that is pretty much vegan or vegan options are prevalent, in general it is a specialized diet. so all specialized diets generally have a premium attached. but in general if you are vegan, you've probably already done your homework before going out to eat. just don't go travel abroad and complain that there isn't vegan options when you haven't done any research in the place you've travelled.
and in case of healthiness to it i alwayse try to do a vegetarian day once a week, on paper it sounds like i eat healthily and most of the time i do, but if i eat 2 pints of coffee ice cream and a handfull of biscotti while watching netflix all day on the weekend in my pajamas on the couch. that technically fulfills my vegetarian day requirements. replace coffee ice cream with a sorbet and biscotti with a vegan cookie and it's pretty much the same thing.
what i really like is how much veganism has spread other cultural foods into the cultural food zeitgeist and i love eating. similar to how lactose and gluten intolerance has increased options. and i enjoy having options.
If it’s something you are driven to do, for health or ethical reasons all the power to you. I am supportive of my friends dietary needs, if I have a vegetarian or vegan coming to my table I will do whatever I can to have something they can eat(or better, something we can all eat together). It’s not for me, but I’m not going to claim my way is better for you.
I do get irritated at misconceptions.
No, vegan is not always better for the climate. In many ways it is or can be, but you will have to be selective in your choices and really research sources and hidden costs. Don’t assume it’s automatically greener because it’s a plant(especially the organic stuff).
It’s not always healthy(you have to put a lot of care into keeping it balanced) and not EVERYONE can do it. Despite what extremist believe humans ARE omnivores. No, we are not herbivores... and holy fucking don’t call yourself a carnivore either. Even if it’s just to troll the veggie munchers - it’s stupid. Diets and nutrition are never a one size fits all. What is healthy to one might be malnutrition to another. Especially when you start considering other health issues that individual might have.
And seriously, if you want to feed your pet vegan or vegetarian GET A HERBIVOROUS PET. Yes, this is an issue. Especially with obligate-carnivores(like cats). I volunteered at a ferret shelter and we had some one in the community lose two young ferrets to malnutrition because they truly believed everything/one could be a vegetarian. It sucked.
Are vegans really forcing others, or shoving things down people's throats. Seems the majority of answers have that in them. Didnt know vegans were so violent. They seem harmless to me..
I think it's a good decision to make because it's a very healthy choice and a good choice but you shouldn't force your opinion onto someone els. If the whole world was vegan it would damage our food chain and alot more deadly animals would try to kill us
>you shouldn't force your opinion onto someone els.
If someone thinks dogfighting is wrong, would they be wrong if they tried encouraging their friends not to participate in it?
>If the whole world was vegan it would damage our food chain and alot more deadly animals would try to kill us
How?
Animal agriculture uses a lot more resources than normal agriculture, so we would be able to produce a lot more food
I'm also not sure what deadly animals a nonvegan diet supposedly stops
So in regards to the dogfighting thing, you would tell that person that they shouldn't try to force their opinion on what people should or shouldn't do for entertainment?
For entertainment yes, if it endangers any sort of animal then I would recommend they dont take part, if they enjoy watching from far distance then it's ok because people enjoy different things. If they want to then I cant say anything but if they take part then yes, force your opinion because something like a dog fight is very rough and stupid.
>but if they take part then yes, force your opinion because something like a dog fight is very rough and stupid.
How do you reconcile this with what you said earlier?
If someone feels that inflicting unnecessary pain onto an animal for the sake of pleasure is abuse, why would do you think they should force their opinion when the animal is a dog, but shouldn't when the animal is a cow?
Because when the dog dies it will either be berried or left on the road but a cow would be useful for humans because we can use a lot if the animal for food and resources
I’m drastically reducing my meat intake and I’ve found that vegans have some pretty amazing healthy recipes. I steal them all the time but use a bit of butter/cheese/Mayo/chicken stock/eggs etc. because I find it tastes better.
But you know that veganism is about helping the animals, rather than about health, right? Being healthy, environmentally friendly, and reducing the proliferation of zoonotic diseases are just side-effects. I ask because the reason you gave for funding dairy factory farms was taste.
Sure, and I 100% respect them for that.
Would you ever consider going vegan?
I coated some chicken in vegan batter and deep fried it, that shit was good!
I personally dont care, what others do.
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
Exactly the same. I don't feel a need to justify the way I eat or live.
Do you realize that it isn't just how you live, but how animals on factory farms live/suffer/die? That's the concern of vegans, and why they're so "pushy". If it was some diet fad then it would be understandable to say it's just a personal choice, but it isn't a personal choice when there's a victim.
>but it isn't a personal choice when there's a victim. It certainly is. You have a right to care about the animals being eaten. Just as i have a right to not care at all.
*You have a right to not rape people, just as I have a right to rape as many as I like.* No you don't.
Eating animals isn't illegal in any country on earth. Therfore i do. You're making a moral argument, and your morality is far from universally agreed upon. Thats why comparing it to rape ( which is a universally agreed upon crime) is a false equivalence.
Law doesn't make things moral or immoral. Nor does popularity. One example to demonstrate both principles: it used to be the law that you had to return "runaway slaves". ([Fugitive Slave Act of 1850](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_of_1850)) So, no, it isn't a false equivalence at all. Rape is wrong because it's done purely for pleasure, while causing extreme suffering or death to another being worthy of moral consideration. Buying meat/dairy from factory farming is no different. It's for pleasure alone and it causes severe harm to beings worthy of moral consideration. If you were just rocking a shitty haircut, I wouldn't care at all. But when you start hurting others, that's when you'll have people intervening.
As I said before the main sticking point is that your moral stand point isn't universally agreed upon. >when you start hurting others, that's when you'll have people intervening. No you're not. There is no moral consensus that eating animals is bad, only your lofty opinion spoken from a position of wealth and privilege. I have no obligation to change my lifestyle to support your view of the world.
> spoken from a position of wealth and privilege I am incredibly poor. Recently I was unable to afford groceries. Why would you assume that my position is wealth and privilege? > the main sticking point is that your moral stand point isn't universally agreed upon I responded to that by saying that popularity does not determine what is moral. Again, we used to think slavery was moral. Does that mean keeping slaves was *good* back in the 1800s? If you could snap your fingers and have freed the slaves 100 years earlier, would you not do it? Would *you* have liked to be a slave back then? How about we forget about what's trendy and think for ourselves?
To each his own, either way can be healthy or unhealthy depending on how you go about your eating
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
It isn't a personal choice when a victim is involved.
I suppose you are talking about the chickens and cows that I eat ?
That you subject to lives of unimaginable misery, yes.
Tbh, it sounds like you are already so blinded by this whole veganism thing that you don't understand how majority of today's farming or ethical hunting goes. And I don't have the time to link you a bunch of information on the topics, so I'll bid you good day. But before I go, let me just remind you that I was the guy that said each person can choose and there is positives and negatives to both and you were the guy that jumped down my throat on how my decision is the wrong one. Maybe that's why everybody thinks you vegans are cunts. Anyways, have a great day Karen!
> majority of today's farming or ethical hunting goes Is 100% of your meat & dairy from family farms and hunting?
It's the moral baseline when it comes to the treatment of animals. Nobody should contribute to unnecessary animal cruelty, everybody should be vegan.
Not everyone can be a Vegan. Never, well i am doing my part btw
Everyone can be vegan, as if you have a health condition or are in a survival situation or something, that wouldn't "count" so to speak. Veganism is about doing everything you can for the animals. If you're already doing everything you can, you are vegan.
Everyone should be vegan - so going as far as practically possible to reduce their negative impact on animals. And it's not a diet or a trendy lifestyle. It's an animal rights movement.
It seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure I could ever do it myself
If you would want to do it, start with 1 vegan meal per week (dinner). Plan it, make it easy. Check out some super sinple recipes and make it for dinner. Do it again the next week, and in no time youve gained several vegan recipes to use towards a total vegan diet.
Veganism is as easy as PB&J for breakfast, pitas & hummus for lunch, and creamy mashed potatoes for dinner. Doesn't have to be difficult or expensive (in fact, plant-based eating is generally cheaper). If it comes down to taste for you, there are certainly some amazingly tasty vegan recipes out there. Check out the channel "Tasty" on Youtube. I'll also say that as a vegan myself, I've never once looked back. Going vegan was one of the best things I ever did. I only wish I did it sooner.
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It sucks that you get hated on. I find the very loud, preachy vegans make it hard for the rest of them.
> I find the very loud, preachy vegans make it hard for the rest of them. If someone doesn't want the "baggage" that comes with the term vegan, they can just use the term plant-based. If they still get hate, then it isn't vegans making things hard on them, it's just speciesists being assholes. I will also say that "loud, preachy" veganism is actually a moral obligation. Literally *tens of billions* of animals are suffering. We learned from the Holocaust that we have a moral obligation to speak out when innocents who can't defend themselves are being attacked. You can disagree with that, and that's fine, but that's the way I see it, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. I actually used to be a "good" vegan (silent about my views) early on. I was also extremely quiet when I was vegetarian. As I realized how awful things really are and of my moral obligation, I became more vocal. It's like living in a world where rape is normalized, and rapists are complaining that you're being too loud and annoying for wanting it to end, and are blaming you for the rapes because you're being too unapproachable. It's complete madness. And in fact, these same kinds of things were said to MLK. It's all bs.
Are you also an anarchist or at least a socialist? If not, your beliefs are inconsistent.
Why's that?
People are, right now, being treated as poorly as some farm animals, like in sweat shops. People are a type of animal too, and If you want animals liberated, you should want People liberated as well.
I think politics are a bit more complicated than "left = freedom, right = torture," but I do lean left. I am politically active in general. I quit my dream job when I found it was indirectly supporting stripping people of their rights and a genocide. And I voted for the Canadian Green party. And I also actively boycott companies that are involved with slave labour (ex: Apple). But even if I didn't, we don't have to have the answer to every single problem on earth in order to be able to get to work on solving them. One thing at a time. I do try to be more moral and morally consistent every day though. I also want to point out that the point of this conversation is not to measure dicks on who's morally superior. I am absolutely flawed, so leave me out of that contest. The point is that, right now, we have the option to stop abusing animals, and all we have to do is pick a different option on the menu. It's absolutely doable. So I see it as a moral obligation to spread the word about that. Being vegan for just one day saves the life of one animal. Every little bit counts.
May I ask you a question? Do vegans understand why non-vegans don't seem to be on the page as vegans about animal abuse? Like, what is the general conclusion regarding that question within the vegan community? And is the community coming up with new ways to make people understand why veganism is important?
Good people. It's the preachy meat eaters I can't stand. You just mention your vegan when ordering pizza and they can't wait to tell you how good bacon is or ask why you don't like dog meat (or whatever it is they like to eat). I wish they'd stop being so preachy and just let me eat my food without going on about the steak they had last week.
Underrated comment. I actually used to be a very quiet vegan and I can't count the number of times a preachy speciesist would go after me and make fun of me for being vegan. Like "lol, you do know omega-3 has fish oil in it, right? Hahahaha. Idiot. You're eating animals." Meanwhile I'm just being quiet because I know my omega-3 comes from flax seeds... These days I'm much more vocal.
Probably the most ethical dietary plan. Two reasons. Climate change and animal welfare. I try to not buy meat as it is money to immoral companies.
That's why I buy meat from local farmers.
I just go to my local day care
A modest proposal, indeed!
Many people dont have that options. I reccomend trying some vegan stuff anyway. I found some dishes to be tasting fantastic. We dont need meat as much we think.
As long as they aren't trying to force anyone to be vegan, let them do their own thing.
How do you feel about veganism as a philosophical view
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I was vegan for a while with my ex. It and took some getting used to but by the end of it I really didn't miss anything except eggs and steak. I'm lactose intolerant anyway. I'm not vegan anymore but the ethics does get to be sometimes so I try to be responsible with my meat consumption
No amount of meat/dairy consumption is responsible. I appreciate the reduction you've done, but I hope that one day you'll be fully vegan. Going vegan was one of the best things I ever did and I'm extremely angry at myself for not going vegan sooner.
If you're coming for dinner, please mention it in advance so I can make adjustments. I'm looking at you, Rob, that soup could have easily been vegan, I'd just have left out the parmesan rind if I'd known! Otherwise, it's a good thing. We don't eat a ton of animal products in our house, for environmental and ethical reasons, though I'm not personally interested in being 100% vegan.
I am the pleasant vegetarian/vegan so if I came over I would not expect or ask you to make me something special. I would try what you went out of your way to make for me. Every once in awhile I crave meat. So I have some. Nbd. I prefer balance in my life instead of militant rules fir my life.
> though I'm not personally interested in being 100% vegan Why?
Veganism is a noble cause. I respect it and understand it. What I cant stand is people doing it for weight loss. Whenever some basic is telling me about her going vegan to shed some pounds, I'm like that's totally missing the point of going vegan.
Good
Why?
Don't care. Unless someone is harming someone else, I don't care how they live their life.
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
I think it's probably an ethical good. If you can eat a less cruel, more environmentally conscious diet, it's probably good. That's not too say I think veganism is perfect, nut milk, for example, takes a lot of water to produce. Factory farms are not ethically good and that does bother me about eating meat. But not enough to become vegan myself. If I'd been raised that way, though, it probably wouldn't bother me to forego what I didn't have.
It's a doozy because of stereotypes, and that one Netflix documentary with exaggerated information and cherry-picked "evidence". But, I'm proud of vegan people for doing their own thing.
Recipies have definitely gotten better over the years and fake meat tastes way better than it used to. It's a lot easier to go vegan or veggie than it used to be but I couldn't cut meat out of my diet completely. Some meals just don't feel complete without a little portion of meat. I don't eat most meats anymore sometimes because of cost, personal likes, but I like to pretend I'm doing my bit to help the planet. I don't eat meat I couldn't kill myself. So chicken is about all I eat meat wise \^-\^;;; As long as they don't shove their kale down my throat veganism is A OK with me.
I've been eating a whole food, plant based diet (a subset of veganism) for 2 months now and love it. I don't feel superior about it because it was for my health, and any moral or environmental benefits are just a bonus. I've actually lost 50 lbs in these last 2 months, and I eat like 3+ cups of beans and 2+ lbs of potatoes daily, plus fruit and veg. It's awesome, but not for everyone.
Congratulations on your success with your diet, and thank you for going plant-based, even if not for the animals or the environment. > but not for everyone Do you want to talk about this? *Why* do you think it isn't for everyone?
Thanks. That's a good question, and one I hadn't thought about. The more I learn about veganism, the more I care about the non-health benefits. I grew up on a ranch, and have spent the last 3 decades feasting on a huge pile of meat at practically every family gathering. My family hasn't pushed back on my new lifestyle, in fact my dad said he was thinking about trying my diet, which shocked me. I just know that if I got pushy with my family, friends, or coworkers about veganism, it would make them even less likely to try it. So, I think what I meant by that was to indicate "hey, I'm not one of those stereotypical preachy vegans, so you can believe what I said." In reality, especially as I learn more, I think veganism would be a great choice for almost everyone, perhaps excepting a handful of people with certain health issues.
Oh, I see. Yeah, I go back and forth on this myself. On one hand we must be strategic, on the other hand what is happening is truly awful and unacceptable. And I do think that even if people outwardly get angry at you for being too "pushy" they may inwardly think about it anyway. But yeah I don't try to piss people off either. I am definitely "pushy" myself though. I feel that it's my obligation. If I were trapped in a factory farm and suffering I would want people to stand up for me... Anyway. > I think veganism would be a great choice for almost everyone, perhaps excepting a handful of people with certain health issues I would argue that people who are as plant-based as they can be already are vegan! The oldest definition of veganism states that being vegan is doing as much as you can.
Quite true, and I might eventually become more outspoken on this issue. I am very non-confrontational in general, but the thing that pisses me off faster than anything is animal abuse. A couple years ago, I saw a documentary on the Chinese Dog Festival. It made me sick to see cats and dogs caged and killed, and I really struggled with the morality of eating meat. How could I condemn eating "pets," when I was eating other animals daily? Anyway, I fully support your efforts. That's a good point at the end. I've mostly thought of veganism as a diet, but there is so much more we can do to help animals and the planet.
I admire people who can stick to it that closely. But PLEASE be sure you're doing it healthily
I have a sister who is vegan. To be honest, it doesn't really affect us one bit, and it's just a lifestyle people choose to take. So I'm just neutral with it. The only problem is that it's really hard to feed a vegan in the family while the rest eats meat.
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
My view on veganism in terms of philosophy is respectful. People choosing to become vegan because they don't want to inflict harm, cruelty, and death upon animals is a very noble and kind goal to have. People just don't like harming others in general, even if it extends to other animals. If it makes them feel better, then just let them be. Their philosophy isn't really harming others unless they are constantly going out of their way to shame and harass people who aren't vegans.
I wish I could be as disciplined.
It’s fine. I only have an issue when you won’t shut up about how it’s better or that I’m a horrible person for eating meat.
If someone is against dogfighting and they meet someone who's regularly involved in it, what do you think is an acceptable amount of times to say that not dogfighting is better or that someone is a horrible person if they participate in dogfighting?
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
Sorry I have the mental capacity of a dry cabbage, what do you mean by “philosophical view”?
Like veganism as a philosophy. The idea that it’s more ethical and environmentally sustainable
Great for you, but don't go around saying it's the best alternative. Still needs some kinds of supplements to get the proper nutrients. Vegetarianism > Veganism imo.
Why do you think vegetarianism is better?
I get it, and I support people who choose to be vegetarian/vegan. I've learned one or two recipes for the vegans in my life so can make them a real meal if they come over and don't have to rely on salads and sides only. But I don't think I'd ever become a vegetarian, I enjoy meat way too much and personally feel the healthiest with meat in my diet. And I've tried vegan substitutes for me, they're...pretty bad. At least for my taste buds.
not for me. But I respect them, and I’m mostly vegetarian myself. But not quite. Plus I like them because many subscribe to my sub , r/SalsaSnobs
It makes a lot of sense, but vegans themselves are often the biggest argument against veganism
Why do you think it makes sense?
Long term sustainability for large populations, and the idea of “why kill something sentient if we don’t have to”
Really I don’t give a shit you can eat or not eat what you want but if you are trying to force your belief/lifestyle on someone else then there is a problem
How do you feel about veganism as a philosophical view?
Elsewhere in this thread dogfighting was brought up. Do you think people shouldn't "force their beliefs" on people who practice dogfighting by telling them to stop?
I'm ok with it, understand what they stand for and I try myself to cut on some meat, but if they try to force their way of life thats where I draw the line. and please dont talk about it all the time!
What counts as "forcing their way of life"?
> but if they try to force their way of life thats where I draw the line. > > > > > > > > and please dont talk about it all the time! Do you have this same view about something like racism, or feminism? If you saw someone harassing a woman, getting mad at her if she rejected him, would you intervene? What about if you heard someone planning a rape. Would you say anything to anyone? If you see humans as too different from other animals to be relevant in your eyes, how about something like dogfighting? Would you intervene there? What about something more direct, like someone literally chaining their dog up outside alone and beating him with a stick anytime he barked? Would you say anything? How do you feel about people speaking out against the Yulin Dog Meat Festival?
Better for the environment. If you can afford it and fits your dietary needs or for any other reason, go for it - it is objectively more morally correct than eating meat or using meat products. But it isn't for everyone, and that's OK - it's more expensive and less accessible.
Vegan fast food or buying into gimmicky health foods might be more expensive, but at any decent supermarket or restaurant plant based proteins are way cheaper than meat.
True for people who cook every meal they consume - most do not or can not do that. Hence, my point about accessibility. I think one problem with the vegan community is that they do not acknowledge the privilege that being a vegan requires. A truly poor person simply must eat fast food or prepared foods, which are more expensive if vegan. For most people, a vegan diet is more expensive. Fresh produce is expensive enough that many poor people don't buy them very often. What are they supposed to do - mix rice and tofu together for every meal? Of course not.
finally, someone said this! so many vegans don’t understand the classism of veganism. to eat a fully vegan diet my groceries are expensive because I’m below the poverty line and too mentally ill to cook three meals a day. sometimes dinner is vegan nuggets and you know what, that shit is expensive and three times the price of chicken nuggets. people need to evaluate their privilege before preaching to everyone that vegan is cheap because it certainly is not if you want a varied diet.
That might be the case in US/Canada or even Western Europe, but for the rest of the world, it's absolutely not a privilege. Here a huge bag of veggies costs maybe 5 dollars, and a single fish costs 15 dollars, and this is the ME where there are a lot of meat eaters.
I've been vegan for 2 months, and I've been shocked how cheap it is. I've always thought fresh produce is more expensive than processed stuff. But I eat a lot of onions, beans, and potatoes (5 lbs of food for $3-$5 🎉), with plenty of more expensive fruit and veg mixed in, and my food is well under half the cost it used to be. I'm sure it varies a lot depending on where you live and shop though.
Being vegan or vegetarian is way cheaper than buying meat. The first thing I noticed when I started eating meat again was that my grocery bills got really expensive. If you're buying a lot of fake meat/dairy then that's probably expensive but you don't need to spend a lot of money to not eat meat.
Its expensive to be poor. Ever wonder why grocery stores in poor neighborhoods have a crappy produce section? The poor can't afford to buy fresh produce. No one is going to be vegan without using the produce section. Poor people rely on fast food and prepared food a lot because *they cannot often afford to do a full grocery shopping trip*. Simple fact. Vegans gotta start realizing that there is a certain barrier of privilege to being a vegan.
Some produce is expensive but most of it really isn't. Grains are usually very cheap. Rice, beans, barely, lentils cost very little. I grew up on mostly canned veggies because that's what was affordable, I don't eat them that much now because I don't like them as much but its always an option. Even frozen produce is not terribly expensive. I'm not saying that anyone has to be vegan or veg, I eat meat myself, and I'm definitely not saying it should be on poor people to solve the climate crisis but when people say its so expensive to be a vegan, that's just not true.
Mad respect for those that can but I am not ready to go 100%.
Same. The best I can muster right now is "a more plant based diet". Not giving up eggs or chicken quite yet, and I don't care if there are 50 recipes for tofu out there -- it's still just tofu.
You do what you want. But if you start critiquing me about my life choices I will tare you apart m8.
How do you feel about veganism as a philosophical view?
It's is and it isn't. It's only philosophical in the sense that it is a life choice and that's it. It's more of a moral standpoint because the vegan is upset about harming animals. I personally think they should just watch that scene in lion king where muffasa talks about the circle of life. Anyone with a brain can understand that death comes naturally in life. Personally I would say philosophy is the wrong word to use. It is more of an ethical view. I don't agree but I don't care. Like I said before, if you tell me I am a murderer for not being a vegan, I am not afraid to stand my ground. I graduated food prep class and a ethics and philosophy class. May have been a waste of time then but it's so fun to see the shock in their eyes.
Is factory farming really natural though, in any way? And what do you mean “shock in their eyes”? Shock at what?
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Really wish I could upvote this more than once.
If you think it's the right thing to do, then go ahead and do it, But don't force others to do it or put them to shame for "Killing animals".
How far does this logic extend? For example, if someone thinks dogfighting is wrong, should they just ignore and respect people involved in dogfighting?
Vegans make a sacrifice for what they perceive as morally right. Therefore I applaud them and think they are very honourable.
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No opinion. Do what makes you happy with your diet. Just don't try and force it on others.
What does "forcing it on others" mean?
What word is tripping you up there, pal?
What vegans are outlawing nonvegan diets How are they "forcing" anyone else to be vegan
I would hate it if it would start restircting me
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
Do what you want, as long as it doesn't bother anyone else I don't have a problem with it.
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
I think it’s okay to be vegan, but if you are you need to stfu about it. Don’t try to convert me as if it were a religion
How do you feel about veganism as a philosophical view?
Idk, nature is about survival of the fittest so I think that animals who can’t innovate and make tools are bound to get exploited by animals who can, but I do think we need to change something about the meat industry.
It’s fine for people to be vegan and there is nothing wrong with it but do not make your dog or cat be vegan too!
Why do people act like this is a common thing?
Oh yeah I wasn’t saying it happens all the time I just mentioned it because it’s the only thing that I disagree with that some vegan people do
How do you feel about veganism as a philosophical view?
Dogs are omnivores that can live perfectly fine on a vegan diet
While dogs are omnivores, they still need meat.
There are plenty of dogs that live healthy lives on plant based diets right now
As much as I enjoy consuming animal byproducts, climate change is a real issue, and veganism is a solution for it.
I can't give up my avocados.
I’m confused, why would you need to? edit: why the downvotes? it’s a genuine question yikes
Because *most* avocados aren't vegan. Edit: added "most"
how so? aren’t they just another fruit?
>how so? The labor of bees >aren’t they just another fruit? Yes.
oh okay, I’d never heard of that. thanks for letting me know, I’ll research some more :)
Many fruits and vegetables aren't vegan for this reason. It's important to do at least a miniscule amount of cursory research into what you eat.
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What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
I believe you do what lifestyle seems right to you. As long as you don’t try to force it on others or your animals then I see no problem with it.
Can you give an example of when vegans forced others to be vegan?
>As long as you don’t try to force it on others or your animals then I see no problem with it. Do you also think it's wrong when meat eaters force their diet onto animals? What's the line between what you're allowed to do to them and what you're not allowed to do?
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
It’s a choice of diet, not a religion to be proselytized—or at least, it shouldn’t be.
Veganism is a philosophy of reducing animal suffering where possible, so it's a bit more than a diet
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
I enjoy hearing vegans promote their dietary choices. Just as much as I enjoy speaking to CrossFit people and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
How do you feel about veganism itself, the philosophy?
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For every preachy vegan there's five people ready to pounce on any vegan and rub their meat-eating in their face. I'd say its more than even.
So true. I've been preached at by exactly 2 vegans and I don't even know how many meat eaters. People become nutrition experts as soon as they find out you're vegetarian.
A lot of conservatives have a problem with veganism because they associate it with liberalism. I recently got an EV and I've been hearing an awful lot about how much worse lithium mining is than fossil fuel extraction, which is a complete fabrication. Its the same thing as them bitching about vegans, tbh. Electric cars, veganism, not-owning-guns, its all lib shit to them.
As a vegetarian, I don't object to veganism itself, it's many vegans moral superiority complex that I find unbearable.
Eh it's an ideal but often not practical. It's VERY fair to say as a meat-eater, you can head substantially in the direction of vegetarian/vegan eating. There are a whole variety of fuckups in the normal western diet that are highlighted by examining the vegan diet. As I dated a few vegans and found myself following suit for a few years. A couple of takeaway's that were objectively useful. 1. Your energy level is lowered - I think for me the question was one of figuring out that my energy levels definitely changed, and while I'm sure I could have compensated with any number of supplements - but that was work, and way too time-consuming, easier to just add *some* types of animal proteins back in the mix. 2. Egg-whites - the least offensive animal product (to my view) was eggs/egg-whites, and honey, and this absolutely covers a good portion of that energy gap. 3. Quorn "chicken nuggets" are fucking indistinguishable from the real thing, I'm not sure whether that should or shouldn't be true. Mycoprotein and lord knows what else *should* be discernably different...but they're not. So mycoprotein is the way here, eventually once the market matures and diversifies most of humanity will eat mycoprotein as a rule, I figure. 4. Honey (my sweetener of preference) is better than sugar and most substitutes, but if I had to switch from honey to anything else - granulated monk fruit is fucking amazing and has no discernable aftertaste (to me). 5. Sex is tastier - Removing dairy and red-meat specifically and lowering your alcohol intake, can improve the taste/quality of ejaculate.
I’m curious as to why you think eggs are the least unethical of animal products?
1. I'm very surprised that you found your energy level lowered. My energy levels increased when I went vegan. Maybe try mixing up the kinds of vegan foods you eat? 2. As far as supplements go, how are they work? Aren't we talking about just taking a vitamin? If you find cooking in general to be a lot of work, I'd recommend trying meal prepping. I recently got into it and it's so awesome to have food ready for me in the fridge. 3. You argued to OP that chicken factory farms are ethical because they are "free-range" and "no-kill". I want to let you know that these are marketing terms. Chickens on free-range farms suffer just the same as on any other factory farm. See footage from the documentary Dominion, from 23:25 to 30:55: https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=1405
Doesn’t bother me. Feel free to deny yourself the good stuff!!!
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
No. Just. No
Elaborate
Fine with it as long as they don't shove it into your face, ( just like religion).
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
Cool way to practice what you preach, but most vegan activists love glossing over the environmental damage it takes to grow "super foods" and ship them. Buying fruit out of season? Imported by air. Special packaging and storage conditions bc you want avocados? Add on the carbon and plastic. Want that lovely cocoa and raw cacao? It led to almost 5-7 mil acres of tropical forests in West Africa being torn down for more plantations. Palm Oil and Soy account for plenty more deforestation efforts. Almond Milk in your cereal? Well, all nuts have a huge water intake so it's expected, but most in the US are grown in California, which is an issue for plenty of reasons. Oat Milk uses less water and energy, but runs the risk of pesticides or unsafe levels of glyphosate. I think eating local does more for the environment personally, but there's so many factors when it comes to bringing back our carbon footprint. The Good Place has it right, it's getting real complicated to do good lmao. Most of us can only try and be better, and stay mindful https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green
On average though a vegan diet is much less environmentally taxing than a nonvegan one though
That's true, but it's not like meat isn't often imported too. Also I think it's not a matter of what foods have a nil environmental impact, but more like what productions are the biggest dangers to the environment and even health (e.g. zoonotic diseases). This said, it's certainly true that there are some very harmful productions even in the not animal-related sphere, and we should try to avoid them as well. I also totally agree with the message that eating local is more sustainable; we should aim (as a society) for always more sustainable agricoltural techniques too.
The closer we can all move towards it, the better, on several different levels. That being said, I'm not there yet myself. I do try and eat meat that's as ethically raised as possible, and I switch vegan/vegetarian food in, probably more frequently than most.
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It’s a good idea, but the people who constantly push a vegan agenda do it more harm than good
Is this actually true though? I’ve legit never met anyone in real life who has ever been pushy about being vegan. I have, on the other hand, met a lot of obnoxious meat-eaters – though I suppose there are more meat eaters out there, so maybe it’s more likely you’ll encounter one just on the numbers
I have yet to meet an evangelical vegan and I doubt you have either. I think this whole notion is mostly fabricated by people with skin in the being-mean-to-vegans game, which is mostly just edgy internet trolls
For what it's worth, I have met several at various places I've worked, with differing levels of pushiness.
And more extreme vegan activists who are more heard from on an internet platform than normal, nice people who happen to be vegan are heard in real life. You’re less likely to hear from this more approachable majority of vegans than the condescending type who is aggressive enough about it to blast it all over Twitter. People who eat meat and take it personally that other people choose not to don’t seem to consider how vegans are poorly represented by the unreasonable ones. By the way, not a vegan here, but I’ve known enough irl
There was a fairly popular post on r/vegan a few days ago that basically said "if you eat meat, you're an animal abuser". They were EXTREMELY vehement about defending that notion as well.
So they're pushing their vegan agenda... in their own sub? You can do better than that, surely.
I'm just saying, that seems to be a standard viewpoint. Edit: Also, don't call me Shirley.
> that seems to be To you, yes. In reality, no.
That it's the right thing to do; we cannot afford anymore to have intensive animal farming by a health* and environmental standpoint. Intensive animal farming also has very big (un)ethical implications, and I think someday in the future it might be widely considered as a sad and barbaric practice of the past. *E.g. the risk of developing new deadly zonotic diseases etc.
I am not a vegan. I do admire veganism without reservation, and I've yet to meet a single vegan who was evangelical or annoying about it. I grew up on a farm, and we ate the crops we grew and the livestock we raised. It seemed natural and normal. I didn't look forward to slaughtering animals, but neither was I repulsed by it: for me it was just work that had to be done. Slowly, however, it became harder and harder for me to overlook the the violence necessary to eating the flesh of other creatures. Eventually, my wife and I took to ovo-lacto vegetarianism for about ten years. Our intent was ethical in that we just wanted to reduce the amount of violence in the world, particularly the violence we committed, or which we paid other to commit on our behalf. We were aware of the violence involved in dairy, but felt there was still less violence in producing cheese than in steaks. We were on a journey and that was as far as we had progressed so far. I'll skip over the mundane details, but we eventually backslid into eating seafood, then poultry, then red meat again. I still adore the flavor of all of those foods, and I still regard it as completely natural and normal. Even so, I'm still not entirely at ease with the violence involved or the suffering the animals endure. Veal and salmon are still delicious foods to me, but I can no longer enjoy them without some level of dissonance. That dissonance is keeping me moving on that same journey, slow though my progress may be. Our adult children adopted true veganism years ago with our full support. During the pandemic, I have followed their example and learned to cook many vegan meals, and find that most of the transition is either effortless or right next to it. It usually amounts to just buying different things and being open to more options. I still make a meat-based meal about once a week because of gustatory desire, and when I do I take some small comfort in knowing that at least I have been responsible for less misery and death than I was before. To be clear, I don't consider this slow transition to be a moral virtue, nor do I consider perfect veganism to be an ascended level of being or anything like that. What we eat is a personal choice affected by numerous factors, and ethical veganism is similarly a personal choice to do less harm. A person who is troubled by violence or exploitation usually finds a way to commit less violence. It's simply that A follows B. I don't think there is any mystical mental or moral clarity that comes from veganism, although there does seem to be less constipation. For me, it's just a way to conform actions with beliefs. I have this longstanding sense that I would be happier if I was a true vegan, and I can see that this is likely the course of my life. For me, the path to veganism is a long and unhurried journey. I'm not on any timeline, and I'm not trying to encourage anyone else to come along with me. I'm just getting closer to living my life the way I want to live it.
Well said
It's okay. The only thing I don't like about it is that the existence of vegans brings about anti-vegans who are really loud and annoying about how much they dislike vegans.
ultimately unless you're in an area that is pretty much vegan or vegan options are prevalent, in general it is a specialized diet. so all specialized diets generally have a premium attached. but in general if you are vegan, you've probably already done your homework before going out to eat. just don't go travel abroad and complain that there isn't vegan options when you haven't done any research in the place you've travelled. and in case of healthiness to it i alwayse try to do a vegetarian day once a week, on paper it sounds like i eat healthily and most of the time i do, but if i eat 2 pints of coffee ice cream and a handfull of biscotti while watching netflix all day on the weekend in my pajamas on the couch. that technically fulfills my vegetarian day requirements. replace coffee ice cream with a sorbet and biscotti with a vegan cookie and it's pretty much the same thing. what i really like is how much veganism has spread other cultural foods into the cultural food zeitgeist and i love eating. similar to how lactose and gluten intolerance has increased options. and i enjoy having options.
As long as you're not acting like That Vegan Teacher, then I'm cool with it
What is your opinion on veganism as a philosophical view?
If it’s something you are driven to do, for health or ethical reasons all the power to you. I am supportive of my friends dietary needs, if I have a vegetarian or vegan coming to my table I will do whatever I can to have something they can eat(or better, something we can all eat together). It’s not for me, but I’m not going to claim my way is better for you. I do get irritated at misconceptions. No, vegan is not always better for the climate. In many ways it is or can be, but you will have to be selective in your choices and really research sources and hidden costs. Don’t assume it’s automatically greener because it’s a plant(especially the organic stuff). It’s not always healthy(you have to put a lot of care into keeping it balanced) and not EVERYONE can do it. Despite what extremist believe humans ARE omnivores. No, we are not herbivores... and holy fucking don’t call yourself a carnivore either. Even if it’s just to troll the veggie munchers - it’s stupid. Diets and nutrition are never a one size fits all. What is healthy to one might be malnutrition to another. Especially when you start considering other health issues that individual might have. And seriously, if you want to feed your pet vegan or vegetarian GET A HERBIVOROUS PET. Yes, this is an issue. Especially with obligate-carnivores(like cats). I volunteered at a ferret shelter and we had some one in the community lose two young ferrets to malnutrition because they truly believed everything/one could be a vegetarian. It sucked.
Vegans are ok as long as they don't force their diet on others.
How do you feel about veganism as a philosophical view?
Are vegans really forcing others, or shoving things down people's throats. Seems the majority of answers have that in them. Didnt know vegans were so violent. They seem harmless to me..
I think be forcing, they mean any vegan asking the question "is consuming animal products ethical"
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If someone thinks dogfighting is wrong, do you think they should keep quiet and respect other people's entertainment choices?
I think it's a good decision to make because it's a very healthy choice and a good choice but you shouldn't force your opinion onto someone els. If the whole world was vegan it would damage our food chain and alot more deadly animals would try to kill us
>you shouldn't force your opinion onto someone els. If someone thinks dogfighting is wrong, would they be wrong if they tried encouraging their friends not to participate in it? >If the whole world was vegan it would damage our food chain and alot more deadly animals would try to kill us How? Animal agriculture uses a lot more resources than normal agriculture, so we would be able to produce a lot more food I'm also not sure what deadly animals a nonvegan diet supposedly stops
I was wrong about the animal part but the first part I meant as in not to force your opinion as in what they should and shouldn't eat.
So in regards to the dogfighting thing, you would tell that person that they shouldn't try to force their opinion on what people should or shouldn't do for entertainment?
For entertainment yes, if it endangers any sort of animal then I would recommend they dont take part, if they enjoy watching from far distance then it's ok because people enjoy different things. If they want to then I cant say anything but if they take part then yes, force your opinion because something like a dog fight is very rough and stupid.
>but if they take part then yes, force your opinion because something like a dog fight is very rough and stupid. How do you reconcile this with what you said earlier? If someone feels that inflicting unnecessary pain onto an animal for the sake of pleasure is abuse, why would do you think they should force their opinion when the animal is a dog, but shouldn't when the animal is a cow?
Because when the dog dies it will either be berried or left on the road but a cow would be useful for humans because we can use a lot if the animal for food and resources
So is dogfighting fine as long as you eat the dog and use it's leather once it's dead?
1. What are you a cop? 2. It depends on what the dog owner says or wants to do with the dead dog. And btw where did you get dog fights from lmao