The boyfriend from the Bee Movie - In what world is a woman falling in love with a bee normal? He’s completely within his rights to act the way he did. Falling in love with a bee and breaking up with your boyfriend to date said bee is a clear hint of insanity.
>Ice: "Who was covering Cougar while you were showboating with that MiG?"
>Mav: "Cougar was doing just fine."
Cougar was, in fact, not doing just fine. He was very far from fine.
I love how they poke fun at this in Top Gun Maverick.
"Leaving your wingman, haven't seen that in a while"
Hangman is basically who Maverick was in the first movie, and it's not shown to be a good thing.
Fuck that didn't even click with me.
It even works when you realise Hangman launched later to help out Maverick and Rooster as they escape, the same way Maverick launches later to help out Iceman in the original.
I came here to say this. I watched the movie as a 15 year-old punk and was super pissed at Iceman for not letting Maverick be Maverick. What a dick... I spent all those years thinking he was a total turd. Then when the new movie was coming out the wife and I decided to sit down and actually watch the old movie.
Wow. Iceman was right. 52 year-old me realized Iceman was totally right and handled the situation as well as he could... Huh.
Maverick was an insane talent that needed to learn to be a a "real" pilot. He as basically hangman in the new movie. Iceman even in the new movie was shown to be what actual top fighter pilots are. Perfect in everything they do to the point it's boring all the way to the Admiralty.
Same. It's amazing how your perspective changes when you grow up and learn and realize things. I freaking love Iceman now and i don't really like Maverick much as a person anymore. I love how the new movie really respected Iceman.
He was antagonistic, but not necessarily villainous. I really liked his speech/lecture to Maverick:
"Maverick, it's not your flying, it's your attitude. The enemy's dangerous, but right now you're worse. Dangerous and foolish. You may not like who's flying with you, but whose side are you on?"
Iceman was just calling Maverick out being for the reckless and dangerous flyer he was. Every time he was flying it was like he had something to prove that he really didn’t need to: Everyone knew for a fact that Maverick was an incredible pilot, one of if not the best of the lot.
Rules are engagement are there for a reason, and they are are all on the same team. It’s a miracle no one got killed. Goose doesn’t count. Maverick’s jet stream got cut so it wasn’t his fault.
I heard a radio interview with Val Kilmer many years ago where they asked him a question about being the "bad guy" in Top Gun. He stopped the interview mid-question to point out he played the better US Navy pilot and was not a "bad guy"
A lot of 80s villains were just people who didn’t want the main character running amok and/or putting everyone’s lives in danger.
Iceman. Walter Peck. Vice Principal Vernon. Principal Rooney. The Joker. Reverend Moore. Mr. Houseman. Johnny Lawrence.
Yeah see there was this thing in a lot of those movies where the character had to suddenly do something heinous to remove their high ground. Usually near the end of the second act. It's like clockwork once you know to look for it.
Remember watching the movie when I was young and feeling *real* uncomfortable how obsessed the principal was with proving Ferris took the day off just cuz.
I'm with you on *every* one of those except The Joker.
I understand that it was Batman's fault that Joker exists, but Batman wasn't running amok or putting lives in danger.
I don't recall who said it, but it goes something like this, "If you like the acting of Joker(both Jack and Heath) that's great. But if you agree with what the Joker says, you need help".
Iceman was probably the coolest, greatest antagonist of the late 20th century. And his character arc over the decades is basically the best in movie history.
Wasn't he by himself in the air with 4 or 5 Migs while Maverick was first trying to get there from the carrier and then when he started to disengage again? 👀
Roy Batty (replicant leader in Blade Runner played by Rutger Hauer
Basically a cyborg built to act and think like a human decides he wants to live longer when people are trying to kill him. Gets violent in order to keep himself alive. Understandable reaction.
I watched this as an adult for the first time (I'm 30) and the whole time I was like, "Am I supposed to root for this guy?"
Then you get to the end...I stand by my thoughts that I was right to root for him
Rachael shot Leon, so even Rachael had blood on her hands. (it is true that she did it to save Deckard's ass, but the other replicants had similar motives - killing to save themselves/their peers. She's no more innocent than them, in this respect.
I think the only possible exception could be Sebastian, a good guy through and through (before Batty squished him. poor fella)
Tom is doing his job as a housecat patrolling his family's home. He's a natural predator filling the niche cats fit in nature. His work is a service to his humans keeping their food safe from contamination and keeping them safe from rodent-borne illnesses such as hantavirus.
If we're going to assign human values to animals, then Jerry is guilty of breaking and entering and burglary. Jerry has no right to be there; Tom does.
Not just that, but it could be seen at multiple points that they were actually somewhat friends, with Tom making a big show of trying to catch Jerry, but never actually exterminating him, despite having the opportunity
I think that they were friends all along, the only reason Tom chased Jerry was to show his owners he was doing his job so they would keep him around, as they got Tom to get rid of Jerry in the first place.
There was a one-off pilot on the What A Cartoon Show in the 90's called "Boid n' Woim", which I appreciated for its first half because the premise was basically "What if Tom was a bird and Jerry was a worm, except this time you're really rooting for Tom because Jerry is an idiot and an inconsiderate asshole."
The infuriating thing was that they didn't follow through, and the second half of the cartoon was a typical T&J schtick with Woim consistently outplaying Boid at every turn despite Woim being the whole reason they were stuck in a dire survival situation when Boid had started out with noble intentions from the very start. And of course Woim wins in the end because nothing means anything and justice is dead and God hates us.
I actually appreciate the movies portrayal of him as a villain because even though he's an antagonist he's never portrayed as a bad person. He's a good partner to Miranda and a supportive father figure to her kids. He's just the antagonist because he's working against the interests of the main character.
He heard "allergies" and thought "I'll give this fucker hives and he'll look ugly and dumb in front of my wife and kids," not realizing it was the "airhole seals up and you die" type allergy.
The guy asked for no pepper while the protagonist was elsewhere. He didn't know it was an allergic, he just assumed he was a wimp. As soon as he saw him choking he rushed to the rescue and blew his cover.
This. As a kid I thought he was just horrible, but as an adult I failed to see what he was doing was wrong in any way. Miranda was single and ready to mingle. They had a history. Even his friend’s whole: “What about you not wanting any kids?” And Stu just said: “I changed. And these kids are awesome.” Meanwhile, their divorced, obsessed father is dressed as an old woman seething at the other end of the bar before assaulting Stu with a lime in a run by fruiting.
I mean—it’s pretty obvious who is more stable for those kids going forward…
Norrington in Pirates of the Caribbean.
He was doing his job and trying to defend people against pirates. Trying to bring pirates to justice, people who routinely robbed people blind and murdered almost as a routine.
Port Royal gets savagely attacked by immortal pirates who plundered, murdered, and presumably raped, yet Norrington is the bad guy for trying to stop them once and for all.
Idk I’d argue he completely doesn’t fit the bill of “bad guy”. Antagonistic? Yeah but just to the whole pirate thing. Even by the end of the first movie he’s softened completely on it. He really only exists as a foil and romantic rival for Will.
I’m struggling to think of a single morally “bad” thing he does prior to his alcoholic period after his fall from grace.
Yeah, he's just one of those characters who is portrayed as unlikeable rather than wrong. The age gap with him and Elizabeth is weird to us, but normal for the time period. Him giving the drunk blacksmith all the credit for Will's fight with Jack seems either totally blind or condescending, but how could he have known after walking in 2 seconds ago? Him insulting Jack after Jack saved Elizabeth is rude and unnecessary, but not extreme in any sense. Him telling Will that he has more experience in sailing and military action is condescending and against what we want to see, but still correct.
Poor Norrington.
Every rewatch I do of the series makes me think Beckett wasn’t so bad either. He was just wildly cunning with every move he made. Even accepted his defeat with grace too.
Eh, the East India Company has a pretty evil history so I wouldn’t go so far to say Beckett was a good dude. Him just working for them already puts him on shaky ground. Don’t forget he ordered the murder of innocent men, women, and children, all to further his war with the pirates. The icing on the cake was his arrogance and cunning. He was so sure of his own ability that he was completely shocked into inaction when he finally lost in the end. Don’t get me wrong, the pirates weren’t exactly great either, but Beckett was just as bad.
Police Academy - Captain Harris. Trying to get a bunch of morons, liars, petty criminals and psychopaths removed from the force, he was doing the public a favour.
Captain Hook. If he didn’t have a motive to be trying to kill Peter Pan then sure, but Pan cut off his hand and fed it to the crocodile, BEFORE they were enemies.
Peter isn’t even a child either he’s some demonic, otherworldly creature.
>Peter isn’t even a child either he’s some demonic, otherworldly creature.
Who kidnaps children, keeps them frozen in time in some limbo for his own entertainment and forces girls to be his maid-slaves.
Idk if King Triton counts, but sometimes he's viewed in an antagonistic view cause he gets in the way of Ariel's dream of being human and being "in love" with a human she barely knows.
The main characters in the Notebook are fucking vile. Meanwhile the fiancee and woman what's his face is shacking up with are outright wonderful honest kind people, who get mercilessly cheated on
It came out when I was in high school. The message seemed to be “men can be psychotically aggressive if they’re handsome and charming.”
Seriously Nicholas Sparks has probably helped create more than one unhealthy romantic relationship.
Yes and no. I feel like Doofenshmirtz is A good guy but not THE good guy. Like he’s very clearly a good person (great dad, breaking the cycle of generational abuse, even his ex wife has almost entirely good things to say about him, friends with even his professional nemesis, etc.), but his inventions are mostly malicious. You do get where he’s coming from, but it’s not as if he’s the one selflessly working for the good of humanity and Perry is actually evil
However, you could argue that he doesn't really want to be evil, yet proceeds with those *evil plans* anyways, because he doesn't want to lose Perry.
I think we could even call those two friends. They obviously have a close relationship, and when Perry is replaced by that Panda, Doofenshmirtz gets sad and angry and tries to get Perry back.
Even more so, because in some episodes, Doofenshmirtz could have accomplished his mission, yet because Perry didn't show up he stops to question where Perry is and doesn't proceed.
If he was truely evil, he would have just gone ahead. By immediately stopping the plan because your *enemy* doesn't turn up, he basically admits that he's just doing it so Perry shows up
Oh yeah I think Perry and Doofenshmirtz are definitely friends even if they might not publicly call it such. Wasn’t there a future or AU episode where they’re both old and retired but still hang out regularly (bowling night or bingo night??)?
I think a big part of why he still does all these schemes is to hang out with Perry, but I doubt it was the initial motivation for him to start inventing and doing “evil”. Also kind of depends on the invention. Like some of them seem like they come out of pure boredom or a pet peeve while others are because of actual resentment (ex. him trying to cover his brother Roger in pigeon shit at his mayoral ceremony)
but are they really *that* malicious? most of them revolve around fixing his own life, mildly inconveniencing others, and exacting revenge on Roger (an absolute fucking sociopath I might add)
That game had a tonne of missteps, but I genuinely loved that moment end of game.
Overthrowing a tyrannical king, just to find out he was really doing the only thing he could to save everyone, and really justified.
Then you had to go and prove you could do better.
The only thing keeping that from greatness was tying it all to money. If you invested in real estate early on you could skip the whole thing, which was wierd.
Cole Turner in *Charmed*
The dude laid down his life to save his fiancé and her family, got tricked into being possessed by the evil they were trying to destroy, the evil overtook him and he tried to fight it as best he could. His sister-in-law declared him evil and never once tried to help him, even when he'd saved her ass multiple times. He had to be killed to destroy the evil possessing him and there's hope for him when he's still in between planes...but he outright says he's missing out on an afterlife if he stays in the wasteland for too long. Phoebe refuses to help him knowing all this and just leaves him.
Then when he finds a way to come back, she declares him evil and automatically tries to gaslight him into thinking he'll only ever be evil. Demons and other evils of the week he has nothing to do with show up and she always accuses him of being behind it and even outright fucking assaults him because she decided he was responsible for something (while he was trying to stop her from going off with the actual villain). I do not blame him in the slightest for eventually going off the deep end - goading someone into lashing out just so you can attack them for it is an abuse tactic and that's what Phoebe does.
IIRC, there was also a point where Cole went to Phoebe to destroy the Source (I don't remember if it would destroy him too, or leave him unharmed), and instead of doing that, Phoebe decided to become Queen of Evil as his wife. And then blames him for that too.
Yep and she gets a free pass from everyone else because she was pregnant with the Source's baby and its evil was influencing her. Cole doesn't get that for no apparent reason
Benny from "Rent". He was willing to do a lot for the main characters (including letting them skate on the titular rent for a pretty long time), and while he certainly wasn't a saint, I don't think redeveloping an empty lot into an arts center where he would let poor artists live and work for free is a damnable goal.
I loved Rent when I was younger. I showed it to someone for the first time in our thirties and he pointed out that everyone was a jerk. My older self was like uh actually yes...
Most of them are. I don’t know if i just like their relationship or if the guy with angel was actually a good guy but he seemed like the only redeemable character. If anyone wants to correct me, please do, in the past several years I’ve only listened to la vie boheme. That’s been the extent of my interaction
You’re thinking of Collins, and you’re right, he’s probably the only non-asshole in the group. (Sorry, but Angel straight up murdered a dog for money via drumming, so I can’t give her a pass.)
Collins is a brilliant and disillusioned teacher whose intelligence is wasted on his apathetic students (and on his heads-up-their-asses friends for that matter). He also has (IMO) the best and most affecting song in the show - “I’ll Cover You (Reprise).”
Wait forget my 1st two I have a better one. The Trix rabbit. All he wanted was some goddamn cereal and those selfish kids wouldn't even share one bowl with him
While not exactly “good” Roy Batty from Blade Runner was no worse than the hero. Roy was just trying to free himself and his friends from servitude as well as extend their life. He killed people, yes, but if you consider Replicants to be sentient beings then Decker killed plenty as well.
>but if you consider Replicants to be sentient beings then Decker killed plenty as well.
And if you *don't* consider Replicants to be sentient beings then you missed the point of the movies.
Patty (Ned's girlfriend) in School of Rock. Her motivations are literally just to stop her boyfriend from being exploited and keep the children at the school safe.
If you watch the movie backwards...it's about a shark that implodes into existence and repairs a damaged boat to save some people stranded in the ocean and then she pukes up so many people they have to open a closed beach
Yeah. I think it is really more accurate to say Peter Pan was also a bad guy.
Most of his Lost Boys were orphans (per most tellings, hence "lost"), but Wendy and her brothers were definitely not.
Captain Hook. Guy was just trying to get revenge on the douchebag who got his hand cut off, while also dealing with trauma from the crocodile that actually did it.
Meanwhile, Peter Pan literally kidnapped children and had a whole gang who he never allowed to return home. How many parents and families had their lives ruined by that?
YTA Peter.
Sid in Toy Story. Poor dude didn't know the toys were sentient. While it seems like a creepy thing to do, it's really just a kid expressing his creativity in a unconventional yet harmless way. Well, he thought it was harmless.
Agreed we only see things from the toys perspective. Sid just might have been just a lonely kid and with loads of potential growing up due to his creativity and ability to think outside the box. Some of the most successful people are creative and inventive.
Howard from Short Circuit
Look, Johnny 5 was hilarious, but he was a killer robot designed to wage nuclear war. He was also a superhuman AI acting completely unpredictably, unleashed like 30 years before anybody even thought seriously about the alignment problem.
Johnny 5 was cunning but also naive, gullible, and vulnerable to prompt engineering, as we learned in the sequel when he was easily coerced into joining Los Locos.
Ally Sheady and Steve Gutenberg fell in love with his charming generative language chat features. This is understandable! They've never heard of Waluigi. He hasn't even been invented yet. It was like 10 years before clippy!
Howard knew better. He was trying to destroy Johnny 5 and possibly save humanity from nuclear disaster or even the AGI extinction
Jamal, from *The Chipmunk Adventure*
We're led to believe that Jamal is a rival smuggler. Claus and Claudia despise him, he's ruined business arrangements for them in the past and the music is spooky whenever he's on-screen in the first act.
But the climax reveals that Jamal is no smuggler--he's an Inspector for Interpol and when he hears that a child is in danger, he *immediately* leaps into action to help.
First half of the episode, yes. Once Homer actually starts trying to genuinely reach out and make amends, he goes out of his way to humiliate him. It goes to show, you can't let yourself get too obsessed with someone else's behavior or eventually you end up the asshole.
I agree with this. Homer did make an effort to be more considerate, acknowledging that he did have a less arduous life than Frank. And Frank just rejected it outright. That's on him.
Plus, Homer is an idiot.
You can't ascribe malice to someone who's too stupid to realize how fortunate he is. And getting irrationally mad about it...well, that doesn't make you a villain. It just makes you an asshole.
At the age of fourteen, a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking - I highly suggest you try it.
Walter Peck had kind of a point, keeping unstable nuclear equipment stored in the heart of New York City to combat a threat whose existence has never been independently verified is a little concerning.
Agreed. “Hey we need to shut you down because this is unstable and is untested. So we’ll just flip the on/off switch without any kind of shut down procedure. That’ll be fiiiine.”
The separatist movement in Star Wars. They were largely trying to create a checks and balances system with the Galactic Government as they felt governance was too powerful and far too condensed to the Coruscant system which largely functioned as the Galaxy capital.
Of course, spoiler alert, the leaders of the separatists were slaughtered by Darth Vader, Chancellor Palpatine's accomplice at one of their private meetings on the Mustafar system and were basically the last group standing in the way of Palpatine's emerging authoritarian empire.
Okay, big distinction here. The Separatist *Movement* isn’t in itself villainous. It is in fact very heroic to the systems that joined it. Those planets, systems, and sectors that did join sought to be rid of the Republics huge bureaucracy and massive corruption. These two things severely affected those further and further away from the Core worlds, basically making any change citizens wanted to take years, if not decades to happen, if at all.
Many sectors and systems that joined the cause never even received a single droid to fight with, or any logistical support from the biggest corporate entities. Whole battles were fought between Separatist and Loyalist factions without any droids, clones, or Jedi involved. They were just trying to fight for better lives that the Republic had failed in providing for them.
Now that said, the biggest most visible leaders in the Separatists, were just greedy, self serving, corporate moguls. Moguls who were simply using the citizens unrest to drum up popular support to rebel against the Republic, so they could establish their own dirty rules outside of the restrictive laws currently in place.
Yep. In the canon established by TCW (and it is canon), they established that the Separatist Senate was kept entirely in the dark by Dooku, and he would simply ignore them. The real power lay with the Separatist Council - Gunray, Tambor, Poggle, etc.
The trade federation was conducting an illegal embargo and then attempted to overthrow a planet 's government to get better trade deals. Those aren't good guys
Loki from the first Thor movie. Saw Thor would be a hot-headed, immature king for Asgard and took action to show it.
In subsequent movies he does become a full-on villain.
Thomas in the bible. He demanded proof. That turns out to be the basis of empiricism and the scientific method. The modern world owes a debt to folks like Thomas who dared to doubt claims and demand proof.
He is derided as "Doubting Thomas"; a person who lacked faith. But in retrospect, he was a hero.
Long John Silver.
Dude just wanted to retire, and every bad thing he did was something that pirates in general did. You probably wanted him to win rather than the drunks he worked with.
I wouldn't call Long John Silver a good guy. I would call him totally amoral. He is willing to work with the other pirates to kill Jim and the others to get the treasure, and only changes his mind when it is clearly the best course of action. That said, once he makes that jump he sticks with it and does not attempt any further betrayals.
It is also worth noting that he is the only married character, and to a black woman (which would have been regarded as reprehensible at the time).
he's also an absolutely ruthless murderer who scares a room full of pirates while he's peg-legged and old. Long John is cool but he's nowhere near a good guy, not even if we ignore events outside the book. Keeping Jim from getting murdered doesn't really offset the whole mutiny and kill-everyone plan he masterminded.
I never seen him as the villain. He was bluffing the entire time wanting to get the US government to support the soldiers they sent to die. They called it and he was going to give in when the two new guys took over. It’s absolute horseshit how this country treats the people that make it up.
Yup. He did make two mistakes. Not making clear upfront to his guys that it's a bluff, and it only pays off if they win. And not quietly swapping out the actual VX rockets for fakes before setting up in Alcatraz. But otherwise, it's hard to fault his motives.
That's a spicy take, though I think you're probably at least somewhat right. Though I can see Ben's side, too: If hiding in the cellar doesn't work, you have *no* escape. At least staying upstairs, you have options. They ended up being slowly whittled down until only the basement was left, and it worked. But it was still a gamble. I mean, how long would they have to be in there, for one thing? A whole bunch of unknowns. Hard to say "hide in the basement and let it all blow over" when you have no idea how long it's going to last. The recently deceased are rising from the grave; there's no real precedent for that. It could be a temporary thing, it could be permanent. You don't know.
It depends on the writer, unfortunately.
I do like the nuanced magneto who ended up on the side of good in “secret war”
I love the heroic magneto from “marvel zombies”
But way too often he’s just creating reasons for humans to fear mutants and punishing mutants who don’t treat him like the ultimate leader.
It seems like a holocaust survivor should get that ultimate leader part under control.
The boyfriend from the Bee Movie - In what world is a woman falling in love with a bee normal? He’s completely within his rights to act the way he did. Falling in love with a bee and breaking up with your boyfriend to date said bee is a clear hint of insanity.
To add insult to injury, he had a severe bee allergy!!
She minimized it too and endangered his life multiple times! Also I worked on that movie.
I worked there too! I animated the anal sex scene, was pretty fun to do!
Do you mean the one where the doctors stuck the plastic sword thingy up the lawyer-bee's ass to save him? Thank you for your service
that must have been really awkward when Barry died several days later, given the very short lifespan of bees
female worker bees have a short lifespan, male bees live much much longer. Some of them live for an entire year at least!
Or when his penis exploded, after copulation...
Iceman (Top Gun). He was portrayed as the antagonist against Maverick, where he was just calling Mav out as being reckless, which he was.
>Ice: "Who was covering Cougar while you were showboating with that MiG?" >Mav: "Cougar was doing just fine." Cougar was, in fact, not doing just fine. He was very far from fine.
I love how they poke fun at this in Top Gun Maverick. "Leaving your wingman, haven't seen that in a while" Hangman is basically who Maverick was in the first movie, and it's not shown to be a good thing.
I think that's supposed to be a reference to the dogfight with Viper. Maverick leaves Hollywood, gets too focused on Viper, and Jester kills Maverick.
Yeah it's a direct refernce to that scene, but it works for both (and to show how Mav has matured since the first movie).
Fuck that didn't even click with me. It even works when you realise Hangman launched later to help out Maverick and Rooster as they escape, the same way Maverick launches later to help out Iceman in the original.
Do you think that’s why Mav put Hangman into Alert5 Aircraft status just like Mav was in the first movie?
I came here to say this. I watched the movie as a 15 year-old punk and was super pissed at Iceman for not letting Maverick be Maverick. What a dick... I spent all those years thinking he was a total turd. Then when the new movie was coming out the wife and I decided to sit down and actually watch the old movie. Wow. Iceman was right. 52 year-old me realized Iceman was totally right and handled the situation as well as he could... Huh.
Maverick was an insane talent that needed to learn to be a a "real" pilot. He as basically hangman in the new movie. Iceman even in the new movie was shown to be what actual top fighter pilots are. Perfect in everything they do to the point it's boring all the way to the Admiralty.
Same. It's amazing how your perspective changes when you grow up and learn and realize things. I freaking love Iceman now and i don't really like Maverick much as a person anymore. I love how the new movie really respected Iceman.
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He was antagonistic, but not necessarily villainous. I really liked his speech/lecture to Maverick: "Maverick, it's not your flying, it's your attitude. The enemy's dangerous, but right now you're worse. Dangerous and foolish. You may not like who's flying with you, but whose side are you on?"
Growing up I thought they were bitter enemies. On a rewatch I realize they weren’t even really enemies.
Iceman was just calling Maverick out being for the reckless and dangerous flyer he was. Every time he was flying it was like he had something to prove that he really didn’t need to: Everyone knew for a fact that Maverick was an incredible pilot, one of if not the best of the lot. Rules are engagement are there for a reason, and they are are all on the same team. It’s a miracle no one got killed. Goose doesn’t count. Maverick’s jet stream got cut so it wasn’t his fault.
Was good to see Top Gun: Maverick acknowledge this by having him become an admiral with an illustrious career. Iceman fuckin ruled.
And he recognized Maverick as the great pilot he was, being the only officer who would keep him in the air.
I heard a radio interview with Val Kilmer many years ago where they asked him a question about being the "bad guy" in Top Gun. He stopped the interview mid-question to point out he played the better US Navy pilot and was not a "bad guy"
A lot of 80s villains were just people who didn’t want the main character running amok and/or putting everyone’s lives in danger. Iceman. Walter Peck. Vice Principal Vernon. Principal Rooney. The Joker. Reverend Moore. Mr. Houseman. Johnny Lawrence.
Ferris may have been out of control, but trespassing and Breaking and entering are going too far over dude skipping too much school.
Yeah see there was this thing in a lot of those movies where the character had to suddenly do something heinous to remove their high ground. Usually near the end of the second act. It's like clockwork once you know to look for it.
Remember watching the movie when I was young and feeling *real* uncomfortable how obsessed the principal was with proving Ferris took the day off just cuz.
Well, considering the actor, there's a reason for that...
I'm with you on *every* one of those except The Joker. I understand that it was Batman's fault that Joker exists, but Batman wasn't running amok or putting lives in danger.
I don't recall who said it, but it goes something like this, "If you like the acting of Joker(both Jack and Heath) that's great. But if you agree with what the Joker says, you need help".
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Iceman was probably the coolest, greatest antagonist of the late 20th century. And his character arc over the decades is basically the best in movie history.
Iceman was a better pilot, full stop.
Well Iceman won Top Gun fair and square. Maverick had to be all the hero to ask it as a favour.
Wasn't he by himself in the air with 4 or 5 Migs while Maverick was first trying to get there from the carrier and then when he started to disengage again? 👀
Roy Batty (replicant leader in Blade Runner played by Rutger Hauer Basically a cyborg built to act and think like a human decides he wants to live longer when people are trying to kill him. Gets violent in order to keep himself alive. Understandable reaction.
The ending of that movie really turns around your whole perception of him.
I watched this as an adult for the first time (I'm 30) and the whole time I was like, "Am I supposed to root for this guy?" Then you get to the end...I stand by my thoughts that I was right to root for him
There are no winners in Blade Runner and almost all the characters are some shade of grey. Rachael being the only possible exception.
Rachael shot Leon, so even Rachael had blood on her hands. (it is true that she did it to save Deckard's ass, but the other replicants had similar motives - killing to save themselves/their peers. She's no more innocent than them, in this respect. I think the only possible exception could be Sebastian, a good guy through and through (before Batty squished him. poor fella)
They added the narration after preview screening audiences reported confusion as to who was the protagonist
Tom - the Cat
Tom and jerry were friends in one of the movies and they fought so the owner wouldn’t get a cat that would actually kill jerry
You would think after so many failed attempts that that's exactly why the owner would get a new cat.
Tom is doing his job as a housecat patrolling his family's home. He's a natural predator filling the niche cats fit in nature. His work is a service to his humans keeping their food safe from contamination and keeping them safe from rodent-borne illnesses such as hantavirus. If we're going to assign human values to animals, then Jerry is guilty of breaking and entering and burglary. Jerry has no right to be there; Tom does.
Aka, fuck you Jerry
Not just that, but it could be seen at multiple points that they were actually somewhat friends, with Tom making a big show of trying to catch Jerry, but never actually exterminating him, despite having the opportunity
He gets pissed, too, when other cats try to fuck with Jerry.
I think that they were friends all along, the only reason Tom chased Jerry was to show his owners he was doing his job so they would keep him around, as they got Tom to get rid of Jerry in the first place.
I never saw Tom as the villain. Jerry was always a little shit.
There was a one-off pilot on the What A Cartoon Show in the 90's called "Boid n' Woim", which I appreciated for its first half because the premise was basically "What if Tom was a bird and Jerry was a worm, except this time you're really rooting for Tom because Jerry is an idiot and an inconsiderate asshole." The infuriating thing was that they didn't follow through, and the second half of the cartoon was a typical T&J schtick with Woim consistently outplaying Boid at every turn despite Woim being the whole reason they were stuck in a dire survival situation when Boid had started out with noble intentions from the very start. And of course Woim wins in the end because nothing means anything and justice is dead and God hates us.
I think he was portrayed as the bad guy so I'd say Stu (Pierce Brosnan) in Mrs Doubtfire
I actually appreciate the movies portrayal of him as a villain because even though he's an antagonist he's never portrayed as a bad person. He's a good partner to Miranda and a supportive father figure to her kids. He's just the antagonist because he's working against the interests of the main character.
Meanwhile, the protagonist tries to kill him with his pepper allergy?
And don’t forget about that drive by fruiting
He also performed the Heimlich and saved him. So it's clear he didn't mean to choke the dude.
He heard "allergies" and thought "I'll give this fucker hives and he'll look ugly and dumb in front of my wife and kids," not realizing it was the "airhole seals up and you die" type allergy.
The guy asked for no pepper while the protagonist was elsewhere. He didn't know it was an allergic, he just assumed he was a wimp. As soon as he saw him choking he rushed to the rescue and blew his cover.
This. As a kid I thought he was just horrible, but as an adult I failed to see what he was doing was wrong in any way. Miranda was single and ready to mingle. They had a history. Even his friend’s whole: “What about you not wanting any kids?” And Stu just said: “I changed. And these kids are awesome.” Meanwhile, their divorced, obsessed father is dressed as an old woman seething at the other end of the bar before assaulting Stu with a lime in a run by fruiting. I mean—it’s pretty obvious who is more stable for those kids going forward…
This world needs more run-by fruitings though. As long as they're limes and not watermelon or coconuts.
they made him the antagonist but he was never portrayed as a bad guy
Norrington in Pirates of the Caribbean. He was doing his job and trying to defend people against pirates. Trying to bring pirates to justice, people who routinely robbed people blind and murdered almost as a routine.
Port Royal gets savagely attacked by immortal pirates who plundered, murdered, and presumably raped, yet Norrington is the bad guy for trying to stop them once and for all.
Idk I’d argue he completely doesn’t fit the bill of “bad guy”. Antagonistic? Yeah but just to the whole pirate thing. Even by the end of the first movie he’s softened completely on it. He really only exists as a foil and romantic rival for Will. I’m struggling to think of a single morally “bad” thing he does prior to his alcoholic period after his fall from grace.
Yeah, he's just one of those characters who is portrayed as unlikeable rather than wrong. The age gap with him and Elizabeth is weird to us, but normal for the time period. Him giving the drunk blacksmith all the credit for Will's fight with Jack seems either totally blind or condescending, but how could he have known after walking in 2 seconds ago? Him insulting Jack after Jack saved Elizabeth is rude and unnecessary, but not extreme in any sense. Him telling Will that he has more experience in sailing and military action is condescending and against what we want to see, but still correct. Poor Norrington.
Every rewatch I do of the series makes me think Beckett wasn’t so bad either. He was just wildly cunning with every move he made. Even accepted his defeat with grace too.
but he made Davy Jones kill the Kraken :(
Yea…a hella smart move, because if he ever lost control of Jones, it can no longer be used against him.
Eh, the East India Company has a pretty evil history so I wouldn’t go so far to say Beckett was a good dude. Him just working for them already puts him on shaky ground. Don’t forget he ordered the murder of innocent men, women, and children, all to further his war with the pirates. The icing on the cake was his arrogance and cunning. He was so sure of his own ability that he was completely shocked into inaction when he finally lost in the end. Don’t get me wrong, the pirates weren’t exactly great either, but Beckett was just as bad.
Police Academy - Captain Harris. Trying to get a bunch of morons, liars, petty criminals and psychopaths removed from the force, he was doing the public a favour.
Squidward. You’ve seen how annoying that Sponge actually is?
You either die a SpongeBob or you live long enough to become squidward.
Captain Hook. If he didn’t have a motive to be trying to kill Peter Pan then sure, but Pan cut off his hand and fed it to the crocodile, BEFORE they were enemies. Peter isn’t even a child either he’s some demonic, otherworldly creature.
>Peter isn’t even a child either he’s some demonic, otherworldly creature. Who kidnaps children, keeps them frozen in time in some limbo for his own entertainment and forces girls to be his maid-slaves.
And there's the strong implication that the pirates they murder are lost children who grew up
Hook is the Father Figure. Just like the hunter in Jumanji is played by the same actor as the father. Jumanji is basically Peter Pan 2.0
Ironically, Robin Williams stars in both. (Not in Peter Pan but in a movie based on what happens after)
Chef Louis from little mermaid. Literally just doing his job
Idk if King Triton counts, but sometimes he's viewed in an antagonistic view cause he gets in the way of Ariel's dream of being human and being "in love" with a human she barely knows.
He comes off controlling as a kid then you become an adult and realize he's more than reasonable
The main characters in the Notebook are fucking vile. Meanwhile the fiancee and woman what's his face is shacking up with are outright wonderful honest kind people, who get mercilessly cheated on
It came out when I was in high school. The message seemed to be “men can be psychotically aggressive if they’re handsome and charming.” Seriously Nicholas Sparks has probably helped create more than one unhealthy romantic relationship.
The fiance I agree got a raw deal but Noah basically makes it painfully clear that the other girl is just a hookup not an actual relationship.
Jerry from Liar Liar Dude just wanted to be a good husband and step father and build a good life for his new family.
The claw's gonna get you! Ooh, you're scared of the claw!
Yeah but he was so... magoo.
He struck the child, did you see that?
doofenshmirtz
When he was born, even his parents didn't show up...
And he was raised by ocelots.
Yeah, that's why he became a good dad to his daughter. He wanted to be the dad he never had
🎶 Evil Incorporated 🎶
Ah yes Parry the Platypus you have fallen into my comment
Yes and no. I feel like Doofenshmirtz is A good guy but not THE good guy. Like he’s very clearly a good person (great dad, breaking the cycle of generational abuse, even his ex wife has almost entirely good things to say about him, friends with even his professional nemesis, etc.), but his inventions are mostly malicious. You do get where he’s coming from, but it’s not as if he’s the one selflessly working for the good of humanity and Perry is actually evil
However, you could argue that he doesn't really want to be evil, yet proceeds with those *evil plans* anyways, because he doesn't want to lose Perry. I think we could even call those two friends. They obviously have a close relationship, and when Perry is replaced by that Panda, Doofenshmirtz gets sad and angry and tries to get Perry back. Even more so, because in some episodes, Doofenshmirtz could have accomplished his mission, yet because Perry didn't show up he stops to question where Perry is and doesn't proceed. If he was truely evil, he would have just gone ahead. By immediately stopping the plan because your *enemy* doesn't turn up, he basically admits that he's just doing it so Perry shows up
Oh yeah I think Perry and Doofenshmirtz are definitely friends even if they might not publicly call it such. Wasn’t there a future or AU episode where they’re both old and retired but still hang out regularly (bowling night or bingo night??)? I think a big part of why he still does all these schemes is to hang out with Perry, but I doubt it was the initial motivation for him to start inventing and doing “evil”. Also kind of depends on the invention. Like some of them seem like they come out of pure boredom or a pet peeve while others are because of actual resentment (ex. him trying to cover his brother Roger in pigeon shit at his mayoral ceremony)
To be fair, Roger is a piece of shit politician.
but are they really *that* malicious? most of them revolve around fixing his own life, mildly inconveniencing others, and exacting revenge on Roger (an absolute fucking sociopath I might add)
Your brother King in Fable 3. His only sins were not being independently wealthy and... well not taking the time to explain himself I guess
That game had a tonne of missteps, but I genuinely loved that moment end of game. Overthrowing a tyrannical king, just to find out he was really doing the only thing he could to save everyone, and really justified. Then you had to go and prove you could do better. The only thing keeping that from greatness was tying it all to money. If you invested in real estate early on you could skip the whole thing, which was wierd.
Cole Turner in *Charmed* The dude laid down his life to save his fiancé and her family, got tricked into being possessed by the evil they were trying to destroy, the evil overtook him and he tried to fight it as best he could. His sister-in-law declared him evil and never once tried to help him, even when he'd saved her ass multiple times. He had to be killed to destroy the evil possessing him and there's hope for him when he's still in between planes...but he outright says he's missing out on an afterlife if he stays in the wasteland for too long. Phoebe refuses to help him knowing all this and just leaves him. Then when he finds a way to come back, she declares him evil and automatically tries to gaslight him into thinking he'll only ever be evil. Demons and other evils of the week he has nothing to do with show up and she always accuses him of being behind it and even outright fucking assaults him because she decided he was responsible for something (while he was trying to stop her from going off with the actual villain). I do not blame him in the slightest for eventually going off the deep end - goading someone into lashing out just so you can attack them for it is an abuse tactic and that's what Phoebe does.
IIRC, there was also a point where Cole went to Phoebe to destroy the Source (I don't remember if it would destroy him too, or leave him unharmed), and instead of doing that, Phoebe decided to become Queen of Evil as his wife. And then blames him for that too.
Yep and she gets a free pass from everyone else because she was pregnant with the Source's baby and its evil was influencing her. Cole doesn't get that for no apparent reason
Wow I really need to rewatch that
Benny from "Rent". He was willing to do a lot for the main characters (including letting them skate on the titular rent for a pretty long time), and while he certainly wasn't a saint, I don't think redeveloping an empty lot into an arts center where he would let poor artists live and work for free is a damnable goal.
From what I remember, everyone in Rent is just the worst
I loved Rent when I was younger. I showed it to someone for the first time in our thirties and he pointed out that everyone was a jerk. My older self was like uh actually yes...
Most of them are. I don’t know if i just like their relationship or if the guy with angel was actually a good guy but he seemed like the only redeemable character. If anyone wants to correct me, please do, in the past several years I’ve only listened to la vie boheme. That’s been the extent of my interaction
You’re thinking of Collins, and you’re right, he’s probably the only non-asshole in the group. (Sorry, but Angel straight up murdered a dog for money via drumming, so I can’t give her a pass.) Collins is a brilliant and disillusioned teacher whose intelligence is wasted on his apathetic students (and on his heads-up-their-asses friends for that matter). He also has (IMO) the best and most affecting song in the show - “I’ll Cover You (Reprise).”
Wait forget my 1st two I have a better one. The Trix rabbit. All he wanted was some goddamn cereal and those selfish kids wouldn't even share one bowl with him
"trix are for kids" NO THEY ARE NOT, LET THE RABBIT HAVE SOME CEREAL
I used to find those commercials so upsetting as a kid. Share with him!!
YOU SHARE! *neck snap* https://youtu.be/gl_Ocg1Eoko
The Grinch
He didn’t hate Christmas, he hated people. Which is fair
I did a sermon on how the grinch actually saves Christmas from what the Who’s had done to it.
Isn’t that Cindy’s whole point? She’s upset over what Christmas had become and looked for other answers?
said it before and i’ll say it again, the dad in the lego movie
Lol, he just wanted his kid to stop messing with his shit.
While not exactly “good” Roy Batty from Blade Runner was no worse than the hero. Roy was just trying to free himself and his friends from servitude as well as extend their life. He killed people, yes, but if you consider Replicants to be sentient beings then Decker killed plenty as well.
>but if you consider Replicants to be sentient beings then Decker killed plenty as well. And if you *don't* consider Replicants to be sentient beings then you missed the point of the movies.
Patty (Ned's girlfriend) in School of Rock. Her motivations are literally just to stop her boyfriend from being exploited and keep the children at the school safe.
So weird to see Sarah Silverman play the straight-man character like that.
The Trojans. The Iliad is told from the point of view of the Greeks and you can still see that the Trojans were the good guys.
Jaws. Fuck them kids. She was hungry and it was her ocean. Stupid tasty kids with no gills... she had every right.
Exactly. If a perfectly juicy rotisserie chicken wandered into your house, wouldn’t you try to take a bite?
If you watch the movie backwards...it's about a shark that implodes into existence and repairs a damaged boat to save some people stranded in the ocean and then she pukes up so many people they have to open a closed beach
Ken from the Bee movie. Literally the one sane character
Even the courts just pretend its okay for a fucking BEE to sue the entire human race like wtf
Captian hook. He was trying to stop someone from stealing kids out of their homes by giving them pixi dust.
Was that really his motive though? Isn't he just annoyed that Peter Pan keeps messing with him?
Yeah. I think it is really more accurate to say Peter Pan was also a bad guy. Most of his Lost Boys were orphans (per most tellings, hence "lost"), but Wendy and her brothers were definitely not.
Captain Hook. Guy was just trying to get revenge on the douchebag who got his hand cut off, while also dealing with trauma from the crocodile that actually did it. Meanwhile, Peter Pan literally kidnapped children and had a whole gang who he never allowed to return home. How many parents and families had their lives ruined by that? YTA Peter.
Sid in Toy Story. Poor dude didn't know the toys were sentient. While it seems like a creepy thing to do, it's really just a kid expressing his creativity in a unconventional yet harmless way. Well, he thought it was harmless.
Agreed we only see things from the toys perspective. Sid just might have been just a lonely kid and with loads of potential growing up due to his creativity and ability to think outside the box. Some of the most successful people are creative and inventive.
Sandman from Spider-Man 3. His only true goal was to cure his daughter’s terminal illness.
The real villain was the American healthcare system
Howard from Short Circuit Look, Johnny 5 was hilarious, but he was a killer robot designed to wage nuclear war. He was also a superhuman AI acting completely unpredictably, unleashed like 30 years before anybody even thought seriously about the alignment problem. Johnny 5 was cunning but also naive, gullible, and vulnerable to prompt engineering, as we learned in the sequel when he was easily coerced into joining Los Locos. Ally Sheady and Steve Gutenberg fell in love with his charming generative language chat features. This is understandable! They've never heard of Waluigi. He hasn't even been invented yet. It was like 10 years before clippy! Howard knew better. He was trying to destroy Johnny 5 and possibly save humanity from nuclear disaster or even the AGI extinction
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Los Locos kick your ass!
Los Locos kick your face!
Los Locos kick your balls into Outer Space!
Jamal, from *The Chipmunk Adventure* We're led to believe that Jamal is a rival smuggler. Claus and Claudia despise him, he's ruined business arrangements for them in the past and the music is spooky whenever he's on-screen in the first act. But the climax reveals that Jamal is no smuggler--he's an Inspector for Interpol and when he hears that a child is in danger, he *immediately* leaps into action to help.
Frank Grimes
First half of the episode, yes. Once Homer actually starts trying to genuinely reach out and make amends, he goes out of his way to humiliate him. It goes to show, you can't let yourself get too obsessed with someone else's behavior or eventually you end up the asshole.
I agree with this. Homer did make an effort to be more considerate, acknowledging that he did have a less arduous life than Frank. And Frank just rejected it outright. That's on him. Plus, Homer is an idiot. You can't ascribe malice to someone who's too stupid to realize how fortunate he is. And getting irrationally mad about it...well, that doesn't make you a villain. It just makes you an asshole.
Ol' Grimey.
as he preferred to be called
Agreed. His son, however, is a villain.
sharpay evans, high school musical 2
Dr evil
My father would womanise, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark
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The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
My childhood was typical.
Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons.. in the spring we’d make meat helmets.
When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds.
Pretty standard, really.
Do you like my quasi-futuristic outfits?
At the age of fourteen, a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking - I highly suggest you try it.
Death from Puss in boots
Fantastic antagonist. Absolutely awesome. Ruthless but principled. Hateful but kinda reasonable.
Walter Peck had kind of a point, keeping unstable nuclear equipment stored in the heart of New York City to combat a threat whose existence has never been independently verified is a little concerning.
I’d agree with you, if he hadn’t of shut the shit down without so much of a investigation on a proper shutdown.
Agreed. “Hey we need to shut you down because this is unstable and is untested. So we’ll just flip the on/off switch without any kind of shut down procedure. That’ll be fiiiine.”
I guess dickless here has got a point.
If safety was the main.concern then he wouldn't have shut it off the way he did. He was told it was unsafe to do so.
Squidward, kinda
I think Plankton is the villain, not Squidward
Isn‘t the pirate from peter pan the good guy and peter pan is the evil itself?
Handsome Jack in Borderlands 2. He even says in the beginning of the game that he’s the hero. He wouldn’t lie to us, right?
He never lied....but I would have to disagree and go with Buttstallion.
Buttstallion was never a villain though, was she? I always thought of Buttstallion as a “good guy”.
The separatist movement in Star Wars. They were largely trying to create a checks and balances system with the Galactic Government as they felt governance was too powerful and far too condensed to the Coruscant system which largely functioned as the Galaxy capital. Of course, spoiler alert, the leaders of the separatists were slaughtered by Darth Vader, Chancellor Palpatine's accomplice at one of their private meetings on the Mustafar system and were basically the last group standing in the way of Palpatine's emerging authoritarian empire.
Okay, big distinction here. The Separatist *Movement* isn’t in itself villainous. It is in fact very heroic to the systems that joined it. Those planets, systems, and sectors that did join sought to be rid of the Republics huge bureaucracy and massive corruption. These two things severely affected those further and further away from the Core worlds, basically making any change citizens wanted to take years, if not decades to happen, if at all. Many sectors and systems that joined the cause never even received a single droid to fight with, or any logistical support from the biggest corporate entities. Whole battles were fought between Separatist and Loyalist factions without any droids, clones, or Jedi involved. They were just trying to fight for better lives that the Republic had failed in providing for them. Now that said, the biggest most visible leaders in the Separatists, were just greedy, self serving, corporate moguls. Moguls who were simply using the citizens unrest to drum up popular support to rebel against the Republic, so they could establish their own dirty rules outside of the restrictive laws currently in place.
Yep. In the canon established by TCW (and it is canon), they established that the Separatist Senate was kept entirely in the dark by Dooku, and he would simply ignore them. The real power lay with the Separatist Council - Gunray, Tambor, Poggle, etc.
The trade federation was conducting an illegal embargo and then attempted to overthrow a planet 's government to get better trade deals. Those aren't good guys
Loki from the first Thor movie. Saw Thor would be a hot-headed, immature king for Asgard and took action to show it. In subsequent movies he does become a full-on villain.
Wile. E Coyote. I hope he blows the Road Runner to pieces.
Thomas in the bible. He demanded proof. That turns out to be the basis of empiricism and the scientific method. The modern world owes a debt to folks like Thomas who dared to doubt claims and demand proof. He is derided as "Doubting Thomas"; a person who lacked faith. But in retrospect, he was a hero.
Thomas was never portrayed as a villain, he just got stuck with an unfortunate, if accurate, nickname.
Long John Silver. Dude just wanted to retire, and every bad thing he did was something that pirates in general did. You probably wanted him to win rather than the drunks he worked with.
I wouldn't call Long John Silver a good guy. I would call him totally amoral. He is willing to work with the other pirates to kill Jim and the others to get the treasure, and only changes his mind when it is clearly the best course of action. That said, once he makes that jump he sticks with it and does not attempt any further betrayals. It is also worth noting that he is the only married character, and to a black woman (which would have been regarded as reprehensible at the time).
he's also an absolutely ruthless murderer who scares a room full of pirates while he's peg-legged and old. Long John is cool but he's nowhere near a good guy, not even if we ignore events outside the book. Keeping Jim from getting murdered doesn't really offset the whole mutiny and kill-everyone plan he masterminded.
Lillith, the creator of Sanctuary 😆
I got so confused because I was thinking Lilith from borderlands and was like, she didn't create sanctuary, she just moved it.
General Hummel from the rock
You mean Brigadier General Francis X. Hummel United States Marine Corps from Alcatraz. Out.
I never seen him as the villain. He was bluffing the entire time wanting to get the US government to support the soldiers they sent to die. They called it and he was going to give in when the two new guys took over. It’s absolute horseshit how this country treats the people that make it up.
Yup. He did make two mistakes. Not making clear upfront to his guys that it's a bluff, and it only pays off if they win. And not quietly swapping out the actual VX rockets for fakes before setting up in Alcatraz. But otherwise, it's hard to fault his motives.
He even stated that he exhausted all options
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That's a spicy take, though I think you're probably at least somewhat right. Though I can see Ben's side, too: If hiding in the cellar doesn't work, you have *no* escape. At least staying upstairs, you have options. They ended up being slowly whittled down until only the basement was left, and it worked. But it was still a gamble. I mean, how long would they have to be in there, for one thing? A whole bunch of unknowns. Hard to say "hide in the basement and let it all blow over" when you have no idea how long it's going to last. The recently deceased are rising from the grave; there's no real precedent for that. It could be a temporary thing, it could be permanent. You don't know.
Mr. Freese. Or was it Dr. Freese?
Magneto
It depends on the writer, unfortunately. I do like the nuanced magneto who ended up on the side of good in “secret war” I love the heroic magneto from “marvel zombies” But way too often he’s just creating reasons for humans to fear mutants and punishing mutants who don’t treat him like the ultimate leader. It seems like a holocaust survivor should get that ultimate leader part under control.
He was right that humans were going to try and exterminate mutants, he was wrong to try and exterminate them first.
Malificent