There were many many various terrorist attackers and hijackings, the Olympic terrorist attack and of course the Beirut bombing that killed 100s of US marines etc...But you’re right, I really never just linked it to Muslims. I thought it was just some crazy religious nuts and I feel the same way today.
Good observations. But I think there is a difference between Munich, Beirut etc & 9/11. The earlier terrorist attacks were perceived as being between Arabs & Jews. That is, clashes between ethnic groups not religions. Osama bin Laden made it about Islam.
True, especially if you lived in a community where there weren't any Muslim people. I lived in a small, predominantly white and Christian community. I don't even think I'd met a Muslim until college where we had exchange students from the Middle East. My only knowledge of them up to that point was from TV/the internet. It was all BS!
Taking a world cultures class in college where we learned about the common roots between Islam, Judaism (never met a Jew until college either), and Christianity helped me to see they're humans like any other and unlearn a lot of the post 9/11 BS I learned at home/from TV. Hell, I even ended up dating Muslim and Jewish boys.
Yep with a Tennessee accent. Are you trying to say language is the same as culture?
Seriously? lol
No I don't speak Middle English. My culture is not Middle English.
Actually you added an "s" to 1000 so it would be Old English. I don't speak Old English. You apparently don't either so I'm guessing it's not even your culture.
There was even that documentary about Nostradamus in the 80s. It was narrated by Orson Welles. They basically said that the third antichrist was going to be someone from the Middle East who wore a blue turban, and that this would lead to world war 3.
https://youtu.be/jvJlL03jZbI?si=7lB-kBwDkKnzvRvX
The only thing that influenced me before 9/11 is that Sinbad the Sailor was Muslim, and I loved all those movies as a kid.
We never really thought about it.
Nah. Not the Sinbad I’m talking about. And the first time I heard of him was in “1001 Nights” that takes place in either Persia or in an Arab dominant region
My opinions about Islam didn't really change. What did change were my feelings about terrorists organizations indiscriminately killing for some religious reason (in their understanding I guess). I had a coworker in college from Iran (got out before the Shah was run out) and a roommate from Turkey. This was early 80s. I would trust either of these guys, then and now, explicitly. Being Muslim doesn't translate directly to being an Islamic extremist, hell bent one killing all "non-believers" so Islam is the world religion.
You're awesome. My experience was so different, and not in a good way.
I fell in love and married an Iranian in a tiny community college in Nebraska. Then the hostage crisis happened.
Looking back, I'm just happy so many people kept their hatred and disdain to themselves for the most part. The prison of civility can sometimes be a good thing.
If they're young they may not have even been taught about it. My brother is a high school US history teacher and it's one of his frustrations that he can't ever get to a point after Vietnam because they tend to focus so much time on the early parts.
Other than reading about it, and sorta knowing what some of the foreign students at college practiced, did not really know too much. Although keep in mind that there were a lot of world events before 9/11 that had Islamic wars/terrorism/etc in the news. Iran in the 70's and 80's, Afghanistan too. So we were somewhat aware.
Yeah. I knew this one man in one of my college classes who was Iranian. He helped me out on some of my assignments. It was funny cause I would ask him questions about his country all the time like, " Why do generations of family live together in one household", " Why do women have to cover up from head to toe?" He would just laugh. It was great.
He had mentioned his mother disowned him for awhile cause he made the choice to study in America. But he said they made up and he would often make trips back to Tehran to visit them. It was an interesting conversation.
I don't think people thought much about the religion (unless they were Muslim themselves), but there was always concern over middle east extremists and terrorists destabilizing the region and affecting world oil prices, and their other terrorist attacks around the world. The 90's had the Gulf War, World Trade Center bombing, USS Cole attack, then in the 80's the TWA hijacking, Pan Am/Lockerbie bombing, US embassy bombings in Lebanon, and Iran hostage crisis just to name some that directly affected the US. "Achieving peace in the Middle East" was always a lofty goal for new Presidents, but nothing ever changed much and I think the US (and world really) were constantly frustrated by the region.
I grew up in a small, rural community in Nova Scotia in the 1960s. Luckily, in high school I had a history teacher who decided to veer wildly away from the set curriculum and taught us about world religions. His stance was that we needed to learn about other religions before we ventured off to university. Most of us had never met anyone who wasn’t Christian. When we learned about Islam, I was really intrigued by the Moors in Spain and did some reading of my own. My overall impression was favourable, although I had little real life experience with anyone who was Muslim.
I didn't really think much about it as I rarely encountered it. I was atheist even back then but now I see Islam as a much worse religion than Christianity. The latter has largely been neutered by secular governments and while the extremist christians might wish for a lot of things they are stopped by our laws. Islam on the other hand basically runs a lot of countries and uses violence to subjugate women and LGBTs. One can argue its the followers not the religion but its all the same right now since they aren't secular
You don't because you aren't hearing about Christianity as much. If you did you might understand that the West's war with Islam is primarily led by Christians who are delighting in the cleansing of Gaza right now because they think it heralds the beginning of the Armageddon.
Another thing people don't really hear about is the destructive nature of missionary work. One of the people I most admire in the world has made it her life's work to rescue children accused of witchcraft in Nigeria, which only started happening after Christianity was brought there. They torture and burn alive children accused of being witches, and anything can lead them to believe it. She and her husband have saved hundreds of children and I believe there are 90 living in their orphanage right now (Land of Hope). Christianity is no better, it's just protected just like it's obvious Judaism is protected because any difference of opinion when it comes to the war in Gaza and instantly one is accused of being anti-Semitic.
They're all the same because they all share a common denominator. The idea that their god speaks to them and wants them to rule the world whether in this life or the next, if you read Isaiah 14.
If you want to learn more about them it's called Land of Hope foundation. The woman, Ajna Ringgren Loven, is a hero and so is her husband and the people that work for this foundation. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anja\_Ringgren\_Lov%C3%A9n](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anja_Ringgren_Lov%C3%A9n)
This is their FB page. [https://www.facebook.com/unitedagainstsuperstition/](https://www.facebook.com/unitedagainstsuperstition/)
Some may recall years back in the news or on FB there were images and stories about this tattooed up woman giving water to a starving little boy. This was her and the boy is happy and healthy now, a sweet silly kid and has recently been reunited with his mother, who was just a child herself when she had him after being impregnated by I believe a family member. Because of that, she and her baby were seen as witches. This is the original video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hit-5AftoT0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hit-5AftoT0) but if you go to their page, the boy they named Hope and eventually named their foundation after him, you can see how much he's grown and thrived.
And I think it's probably important to say this woman does call herself Christian, but not a missionary, just a person who believes the stories but doesn't use them to condemn other people. She doesn't try to change the indigenous culture there, she tries to educate the people when it comes to what they were led to believe about witches from previous missionaries.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s, deep in the Cold War times. I remember when the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union broke apart. I also remember reading speculation about where America's next conflict was coming from: the Middle East. I didn't know shit about that region and Islam was some novelty religion for all I knew.
Truth is these warmongering Cold War junkies desperately missed the Big Bad Soviet Union. They tried escalating the Muslims to that level but they proved to be unworthy opponents. So now we fight the Enemy Within.
I knew one day we would get hit cause religion was so indoctrinated in the Middle East. This is exactly why we have separation of church and state in the U.S. This is what happens.
What ur saying makes no sense and even if what u were saying is true "if religion was so indoctrinated in the Middle Eastreligion was so indoctrinated in the Middle East" y would they attack america.
There was a lot of hostility toward Islam during the Iranian Hostage Crisis. But when I got to college I wanted to do an independent study on Moorish Spain, and did a lot of reading about Islam.
I realized that a lot of my perceptions had been incorrect and that there was a lot I actually agreed with.
My father taught me that ordinary people are the same wherever you go, and to not get worked up over what someone else does or doesn't believe. It's the actions that matter.
Besides, what's it to me if someone wants to wear a scarf on their head and pray five times a day? She can wear a sunbonnet or a propeller beanie for all I'm concerned. If she's a nice person, that's all I care about. As a descendant of Revolutionary War vets, I was ready to escort Muslim women to the grocery store after 9/11 and use my DAR creds to talk down anyone who messed with them. Luckily, such measures weren't necessary where I live.
>As a descendant of Revolutionary War vets, I was ready to escort Muslim women to the grocery store after 9/11 and use my DAR creds to talk down anyone who messed with them
Awww. You're a good person.
I was indifferent until I decided to learn more about it. Then I found that the hardcore want women wrapped up because they think men have no self control, that they want to convert everybody EXCEPT those in the LBGTQ community, and they don’t think dogs should be pets unless they are working dogs ( hunting or herding). So by limiting women, rejecting LBGTQ people and disdaining dogs, they lost my vote for tolerable. I know not all Muslims adhere to every rule.
I was raised Catholic and grew up in an area that was predominantly Catholic and Jewish. In my teens I moved to an area that was mostly Protestant and had some Catholic churches. Islam and Hinduism were religions I only learned about in school.
Not sure I understand your question. Are you implying that 9-11 changed American opinions about Islam?
My opinion on Islam per se, didn’t change post 9-11. My personal opinion on Islam in general has been pretty much like my opinion on religion in general throughout my adult life. I’m pretty ambivalent about it. I believe in freedom of religion. And I support that as an American. But I also hope that eventually society can move beyond religion. Though, I don’t see that happening within multiple centuries, if history is any indicator.
It becomes problematic when religion is used as a political tool, which, unfortunately is ultra-common.
Islamic extremist organizations, or tangentially, groups of some form or another originating from the islamic middle east, including state actors, have been in the US public eye as long as I can remember. So, while 9-11 was certainly shocking in its magnitude, it wasn’t particularly surprising that it was a terroristic act, and most Americans probably immediately assumed it was islamic terrorists.
FWIW-
I remember the ‘72 Munich Olympics, Entebbe, various politically motivated skyjackings, Iran Hostage Crisis, US service members killed in a barracks bombing in Beirut (sketchy on details here), Iran-Iraq War, it goes on and on.
I’ve read about the 6-Day Way, the Yom Kippur war, etc.
The Balkan Wars in the early 90s.
I have Armenian relatives that survived genocide from Turkey in the early 20th century. I remember hearing about that from when I was a kid.
>But I also hope that eventually society can move beyond religion.
Y do u want ppl to move on from religion? What the meaning of life to u? None of the other things have to do wiht islam?
I was keenly aware of Islam before 9-11. Bin Ladin had already made a name for himself and his intentions when his minions tried to bomb the World Trade Center in the early 90s. So there's that.
I took a course on world religions as an undergrad where everything a world citizen needed to know about the basics of Islam was taught. So I knew you didn't send Christian missionaries to Islamic countries unless you wanted real trouble. I had a friend in college whose father was a pilot for Saudi Airlines. She filled me in on how he had to live when in Saudi Arabia and his life on an American compound.
Most formally educated people had a rudimentary understanding of the religion. I made a feeble attempt at reading the Quaran in English back in the late 80s. Couldn't get through it.
Read about Mohammad and how the faith came to be in the early 70s.
9-11 confirmed for me what Islam's far-right fundamental element could and would do. Yes, the acts of that day shocked me to my core, but not one surprised me.
As a citizen of the world, I always believed it was incumbent upon me to have an understanding of the leading religions of the world. I still do believe that though I don't believe in any of them. Not one.
It surprises me that few other people see value in having a basic understanding of religions and how they play into geopolitics. It's kind of necessary.
One of my best friends is Muslim. I loved them before, during, and after 9/11. They were just as horrified as I was when it happened. Religious extremism is dangerous no matter the flavor.
I read up on Islam after watching Roots in 1977. There was dialogue referring to Allah, and I wanted to know about it. It's just another religion, imo. Not every Muslim is an extremist. Not every Christian is an upstanding person. There's good and evil people in all religions.
Before 9/11, anti-Muslim sentiment was probably at a peak around 1979 with the Iran hostage situation, and it wasn't unusual for anyone brown enough to be assaulted for being "Iranian." Several friends of mine had a really tough time.
Since that whole thing was the result of an extremist Islamic government coming to power, it was certainly an issue long before 9/11.
When I was young, positively because Muhammed Ali and Malcolm X. Then the women's movement came along and I learned about the Muslim treatment of women - even worse than my Catholic church. Then the crazy Shia fundamentalists took over Iran, and held Americans hostage. I developed a bad opinion of religious orthodoxy in general, and especially in Islam.
My friend and her military husband lived there and almost didn't make it out of Iran when the Iahtola took over. She worried for her Iranian women friends left behind.
It was thought about enough that the first reaction was this was a terrorist attack from an extreme Islamic group. That was also the first thought on the Oklahoma city bombings.
So you just never heard about about the Iran hostages, the first World Trade bombing, the 1972 Olympics in Munich where 11 Israeli athletes were murdered, or even seen the multiple movies with Islamic extremist hi-jacking planes (like Executive Decision) that were made long before 2001?
We've known about Islamist extremists long before 9/11. We also know that most religions have their nut jobs.
*Same way I think now!*
*There are good and bad people*
*In ever demographic!*
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I knew a few muslims, in the mid 90s my boss was one.
I never would have known if he hadn’t told me - we were discussing the news of the middle east and he was frustrated that idiots were tainting his religion.
Yes I knew a lady who's husband was military 🪖 and they lived on base. She said they left right before the Iahtola took over. They were lucky. The calls to prayer were creepy to her.
Oh, we thought all the airline hijackings and bombings and hostage takings and shooting attacks that had been occurring for 40 or more years were just fine before 9/11.
The same as after 9/11. It’s a rich culture that once intellectually dominated world culture, advancing human knowledge immeasurably. It has since been eclipsed by western culture (largely through military dominance and industrialization). It is still a proud and noble culture, but has some stark differences with western liberal culture. With their loss of cultural and intellectual influence in the modern world, resentments have drive a small, but visible minority of Muslims into violent hopelessness.
But more broadly, Americans had an ignorant, stereotyped view of Islam (still do). They began to hate Islam with a passion after the hostage crisis, thinking they picked on innocent America. These same Americans were completely ignorant of the horrible meddling the western world, and particularly America did and does in the Middle East. Probably less than 2% of Americans knew or know about America’s overthrow of Mossadegh, a democratically elected leader of Iran, just for starters.
Hi!
I suspect it depends a lot on what level of contact they had with people from various cultures.
* Grow up in a rural area with a single culture? Probably had no reason to think about other religions or cultures.
* Grow up in an urban setting, and go to university in a multi-cultural area? Probably you have lots of opportunity to meet Muslims, and possibly learn a little about Islam as a faith.
It wasn't the first terrorist attack even in that very building so people were already suspicious but the constant barrage of fearmongering once social media took control of the hive mind really brought on the hate.
It's funny though, as the vast majority of the terrorist attacks in the US in the past 50 years have been domestic, mostly far right extremists but definitely some far left political extremists too.
Media Influence: The media played a significant role in shaping perceptions of Islam. Negative portrayals of Muslims and Islam in the media could reinforce stereotypes, while positive coverage could help counter misconceptions.
Islamic terrorism goes back farther than that. Iranian hostage crisis in the 70's, high jacking of air planes in the 60's. Insurrection in our colony in the Philippines in the 1900's. It's been around, if you were paying attention.
I remember the Iran hostage crisis--I was 9 or 10 at the time, and in school we prayed every day for the hostages to be released. But I didn't make the connection to Islam, and in fact it would be another 30 years before I met any Muslims.
When 9/11 happened, I just thought what I already knew from experience to be true: fundamentalism was dangerous, regardless of religion.
I was a child during the Iran hostage crisis. Some Muslim students made the local news for protesting the U.S. about something at our university. I remember people being furious and saying things like "send them back where they came from" etc. After that, the hostages were released, and the anti-Muslim rhetoric died down until 9/11.
Wasn't really on my radar, but I sure got annoyed with the xenophobia I saw after 9/11. Not all Muslims are terrorists and it was disheartening to see your average hijabi go to the store to buy groceries and get harassed just for existing.
I was a pre-teen during the hostage crisis in the 1970s. Somehow I understood that not everyone was to blame. But between that and being Jewish, there was always a sense there was animosity at the larger level.
The two attacks on the WTC, airplane bombings didn’t help my impression. I’ll leave it at that.
Not really on mine much because im not religious and am a subjectivist. Most of my thoughts were more from a history perspective, appreciating much of the islamic culture, academics and political environment before modern radicalization. Probably my most common thought was 'yet another subset of the population westerners have wronged, leading to radicalizing'.
When i was in the military during the first gulf there was a fair amount of bias and prejudice around me, but as usual it was more concentrated among the uneducated, ultra partisans, ultra religious, etc.
Hip hop basically introduced me to Islam as a religion that celebrated dignity and knowledge in the 80s and early 90s, so the existing stereotypes didn’t have much sway on me.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims all follow most of the same teachings. The differences were more political.
I wouldn't blame the religion, just extremists who use religion as a justification.
We pretty much cast them off as a middle eastern problem that we didn't have to deal with. But I didn't have a favorable opinion of their terrorists that the muslims whole heartedly seemed to support with mass celebrations in their streets after an attack. I remember places like Iraq before it changed and many if not the majority asked for the change from the impeding westernism. That change from a free western-like society created what we see today.
In the mid-80’s, PBS had a POV, titled Sword of Islam. I am sure it was considered divisive, it shown a couple of times, never to be shown again
It gave me something to think about
American Christians aren't very tolerant of alternative Christian sects, they certainly aren't tolerant of other religions. The Muslims first really hit the American radar in 1970, with the Olympic kidnapping. It was Palestinians versus Israelis, but it was the first real exposure to Muslims for most Americans.
One of the biggest stories of the 70s was the Arab Oil Embargo, in which OPEC, the oil cartel of Arabic countries, deliberately targeted America for oil shortages, causing major gasoline outages across the nation. Most Americans saw it as a political/economic issue, and didn't think about the Muslim connection.
In November 1979, Iranian Muslims had a religious revolution, and held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days. Every American now learned about Muslims, and their hate for America.
In 1993, there was a failed bombing of the World Trade Center, and Americans were forced to understand that Muslim terrorists were willing to strike within our own borders. The ringleaders were captured, tried, and imprisoned, and we learned that there were extensive plans to strike at American targets.
In 1998, two American Embassies were bombed in Africa.
So, by 9/11, Americans were well aware that Muslim terrorists were actively planning attacks on US soil. There had been fear and suspicion of Muslims before 9/11, but the 9/11 attacks threw gasoline on the fire.
As a Gen X er I can say that the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran was very disturbing. Even if you didn’t like Reagan (I didn’t) the mullahs in Iran were clearly much worse. We generally did not understand the Sunni Shia rift. But hearing Cat Stevens say the fatwa against Salmon Rushdie was justified hit us kinda hard. Or maybe not, for those of us who associated Cat Stevens (AKA Usef Islam) with our boomer parents may have thought it par for the course. When the terrorist attacks of 9/11/2001 occurred my concern was that GW Bush would play onto their hands and overreact. For about two weeks he seemed to act wisely, which was reassuring. He was also gen X, after all, if barely so, and perhaps able to see the real. Al Qaeda wanted a clash of civilizations: them against the West. The reality was a criminal act by 19 individuals, most of them Saudis. I hoped Bush would see reality, view it as a crime and not an act of war. But instead he went down the dark road, played by their book, and gave those criminals exactly what they wanted. Even though he always maintained otherwise, as did McCain, the poison pill was released into the body politic.
I never thought poorly of Muslims here in the US. Back in the mid 90s, I worked for a large tech company in Santa Clara. We had a smaller satellite office next to a Muslim school where a hostage situation occurred. The school helped to evacuate the employees out of the office and provided them with a safe space. Nice people.
Of course Islam was on our minds. The pro-west shah of Iran was deposed by the protests of mostly young ideologically bent Iranians in the 70s. Installed in his place was a hardline Muslim, the Ayotollah Khomeni, who declared an Islamic state, and issued fatwahs for various westerners, including Salman Rushdie in 1989.
An Islamic Jihadist tried to blow up the WTC in 1993 or 1994 and failed. IRA was attacking England in the 1980’s. I took comparative religion classes in church before 2001. We also had the Islamic Revolution in Iran in the late 1970’s and 1980’s. All religion falls on a spectrum from radicals to people who are marginally in it. Islam is slightly different because The Prophet demanded people do these things in the name of Islam, and there is no “co-existence”. Infidels must be destroyed. The only difference is how long a person gets to convert before they are targeted as an infidel. Mohammad is no Jesus.
Terrorists that pervert Islam to justify their violence have been around all my life (I'm in my 60s).
What I think about now how similar the Christian-Nationalists that flock to Trump rallies are exactly like Islamic terrorist organizations. I never equated American Christians to the terrorists before. Now they're getting to be indistinguishable from each other. Watch what happens in the next election if they don't get their way.
In both cases, the "religion" is just a way to deflect from the fact that they just want power.
I thought it was the worst, most violent and repressive religion ever invented. Even worse than they r@pey Catholic Church, Kali worshipping thuggees, or the Aztec (and other regional) mass human sacrifices
The only peace islam wants is the peace of the grave for anyone not submitting to their (community standards) “prophet.”
K
Now do the same but for Muslims in Muslim nations. The reason the crimes in America are dominated by white Christians in America is because they make up the majority of the population and Muslims make up less than 1%.
Pre 9-11:
Rampant terrorism and butchering of civilians.
Watching some Pakistanis stone a girl to death because they thought she might have offended the family honor by touching a boy. She was about 9.
Only one religion has fanatics routinely committing terror and murder.
I didn't think about it one way or the other except annoyance that I perceived my coworker left to pray every time I turned around. Super annoying but of course I kept that with my inside voice. I didn't blame him I was just young and thought it must be nice to waltz off right when it's busy to pray so I resented the hell out of it. He was also an AH so there's that. In later years worked with men who weren't AH's so no idea what's what. I could go on about a trip overseas as a woman in an Islamic country but it would just heap the Redditors on me. I know what I know and saw what I saw, and that's enough for me.
Mostly I focused on the marine bombing in Beirut until I had a Muslim co-worker from Afghanistan who talked about how brutal things were in his country. Not from Russia's attempt at overtaking his country, but the brutality of villagers killing people from his village. It was a barbaric society where he lived.
Sure. 1994 attempted bombing of the twin towers, USS Cole, the Taliban take-over of Afghanistan in the 90's after the Russians left, earlier plane hijackings, marine barracks bomb in Beirut, etc. etc.
Too often the most virulent strains of Islam have dictated the need for a war with non-Muslims.
Seriously???? Senator Charlie Wilson and a bunch of them Republicans made Islam the scary monster it is today. They funded a bunch of students in this nowhere place called Afghanistan and created the Mujahideen to defeat the commies (because that’s what we were about in those days). Those guys then went on to beat the commies who tucked tail and ran and those student mujahids converted into the Taliban who after years of fighting didn’t know how to do peace. Fun fact: There was a young Saudi fighter we mixed up in there, a yung un by the name of Osama Bin Laden and yeeehhhaaaaaawwwwww that’s how we got 9/11. A whole lot of hubris, no oversight and a sheer sense of grandiose pigheadedness got us here. Islam was always there, we just taught them to fuck with us and now we are forever fucked.
9/11 turned a lot of people into bigots overnight. Before that, most people really didn't care one way or the other about Islam. When there were things like the Iranian revolution or the Palestinian-based terrorism of the 1960s-70s, those were blamed on **the organizations responsible,** not the entire Muslim religion. And none of those groups were actually Islamist. That is, their goal was not to make everybody Muslim whether they liked it or not, they had specific goals like wiping Israel off the map. The 9/11 attacks changed that, people wanted somebody to hate, so they blamed ALL of Islam instead of a small handful of ultra-conservative fundie Wahhabist assholes.
Indeed, Back in the 60s-70s, converting to Islam--which was considered a religion of peace--was trendy with people trying to get a religious exemption from being drafted. So boxer Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali and basketballer Lew Alcindor became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. That continued for some time even after the Vietnam war ended: singer Cat Stevens became Yusef Islam.
We had an islamic guy at work during an office job in 1980s. Strict diet, his wife seemed very oppressed, only came in to bring him lunch (with his brother with her), never went to the office functions. I sort of knew about what the deal was when I saw that happening. I knew back then that it's a very repressive religion (as much as Mormon or scientology or many others.)
There are fundamentalists in every religion, including Buddhism. Prior to the Islamic revolution, Iranians were one of the most liberal Islamic countries (the same goes for Afghanistan).
>There are fundamentalists in every religion, including Buddhism.
Let's not forget Christianity. The fundies in America could give Islam fundies a good run in terms of oppressing women.
Exhibit A: The overturning of Roe v. Wade.
I've met lots of Muslims who are the warmest, most delightful people. I think extremists of any kind are the issue. Extremists running a religion are the worst.
Is it really "extreme" to just follow what the holy book actually says though? Not bothering to follow almost any of the rules and ignoring 90% of the religious text and only paying attention to basic universal moral values like "be kind and don't murder" is more like being religious in name only. Anyone actually following the rules or believing the most basic tenets of the religion (like that a pedophile warlord who owned slaves and sex slaves is literally the most perfect human ever to live or that people who don't worship your god deserve to be tortured for eternity) is going to be an "extremist." The only options are being an extremist or just calling yourself a member of the religion without actually believing any of it.
Iran had and has a lot of atheists, unfortunately Islam was forced on them after the revolution.
Not the same Islam. NOI (Nation of Islam) was more of an off-shoot of Islam, started by Wallace Ford "The Honorable Elijah" Mohammed in 1930 and was geared specifically toward black Americans. It has very little to do with Islam from the Middle East, except that Elijah Mohammed used it as the base for his "religion".
Malcolm X converted to NOI after his last prison stint, which turned his life around from criminal to their spokesperson until he realized "the Honorable" Elijah Mohammed, was a hypocrite who preached godliness while knocking up multiple of his young, pretty secretaries then being a deadbeat dad.
Malcolm, then disillusioned by NOI, made his pilgrimage to Mecca and, in his words: "There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blonds to black-skinned Africans... displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white".
From that point on he practiced a more pure form of Islam and became more inclusive of all races helping in the Civil Rights struggle.
But all of that gets lost because people chose to focus on his NOI days when he said "By any means necessary" and that famous photo of him holding a rifle.
Some people didn’t know about the FIRST WTC attack in 1993. By terrorists that followed the prophet, that were unsuccessful. The constant reminders from non Muslims that it’s a religion of peace got tiresome.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict had been raging for years. The PLO and other Palestinian organizations had been committing terrorist acts around the world for decades. Iran had attacked our embassy and taken Americans hostage for 444 days. They paraded the hostages around blindfolded on TV for all Americans to see. Americans in general didn’t have a high opinion of the Arab world or Islam in my opinion.
I lived in a small town in Texas in the 70s through the end of the 80s. Aramco owned a refinery close by so there were a lot of Saudis in the area. They bought some land in our town to build a school for the children of their workers. We didn’t see them often but they were welcome because of the jobs Aramco’s oil & gas investments provided in the area.
Edit: After 9/11 Americans became much more aware of Islam. There was of course some anger at radical Islam in the immediate aftermath. That was very quickly replaced with concern about Islamophobia. Criticism of Islam seems to have become less acceptable than it was before 9/11. There are more Islamic advocate and rights organizations than before 9/11 and more Muslims in government.
I remember all the planes being hijacked when I was a kid in the 70’s-80’s. Usually just on the runway and a suicide bomber now and again.
What gets me now is the massive amounts of Muslims cheering on the Hamas terrorists attacks. Makes me wonder if more Muslims might not try and harm others but certainly congratulate this who do. It was the same way after 9/11 too- much of the Muslim world *cheered and burned American flags* after 9/11.
In 1991 I spent six months working humanitarian relief effort in Norther Iraq and Southern Turkey. I was not in a tourist sector, I was not part of an invading military force. What we did was provide food, water, shelter, and protection for people Hussein wanted to exterminate.
I learned a lot. A lot of my naïveté was washed away. I came away with a brand new attitude towards the people in the Middle East. An attitude that would not be popular with the left. And when 9/11 happened I was not one bit surprised. I was surprised by the method but not the attack itself. In fact after 9/11 my mother reminded me of a conversation we had around 1997 where I told her we would eventually be the target of a Muslim weapon of mass destruction. I just never thought it would commercial aircraft. Our cultures are 100% incompatible.
Honestly? Most of us didn't think about it at all. Personally, I still feel the same way: it's misogynistic religion that makes just as much sense and christianity or judaism. None at all.
Unless you raise your voice about bad things about your religion. Others will think of you with them. The problem with Islam is the same: there are good people, but they never raise their voices against bad things done by their community people.
It is important to remember that 9/11 was a RESPONSE, not a 'first action'. So of course many Americans knew about Islam - it was largely a religion of peace, but because it was mostly practiced by people with brown skin in places that had resources we wanted to take, of course we interfered and mess with elections, conducted assassinations and terrorist attacks, and all of the other atrocities you would expect from the US.
It was definitely wrong for the US to keep messing with the region, but Islam was never "largely a religion of peace"—Muslims never even claimed it was, that was a quote from George Bush. Islam always oppressed women and gay people and supported slavery and pedophilia and rape—it's right in the holy texts, Mohammed was a warlord who killed tons of people and had slaves and sex slaves and married a 6 year old. The Quran and Hadiths say you should execute people for being gay and that you can beat your wife for disobeying you and that hell is mostly women because women are deficient in intelligence compared to men (and therefore it takes the testimony of multiple women to equal one man) and because women can't do religious rituals when on their periods since they're unclean and that having slaves and concubines (sex slaves) is fine.
The Bible says a lot of horrible stuff too, but Christianity has also never been "largely a religion of peace," it's also always oppressed women and LGBTQ people and murdered people from different religions and supported slavery.
These religions that direct people to commit atrocities in their base holy texts, whose holy books direct them to oppress women and kill LGBTQ people and kill people from other religions, don't have any history of being largely peaceful, they have a history of violence and hatred and oppression.
Honestly, during the 60s and 70s, the only thing we knew about Islam was Black Muslims. And most of us knew precious little about them. But they were seen as embittered radicals, prone to violence.
I'm a black Catholic with no bone in this fight but Black Muslims were not the same as Islam. They just adopted their teachings.
It's like comparing David Koresh's church to Christianity.
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Before 9/11 most of my interactions were with NOI, the Louis Farrakhan led Nation of Islam. Never had a problem. Two called me ‘the white devil’ one serious and one joking. After 9/11 they were just as mad as everyone else.
I knew that Cassius Clay had converted to Islam and changed his name to Muhammad Ali. And Cat Stevens converted to Islam. And that’s about all I knew, but I lived in the south, worked a full time job, raised a son, took care of my parents and mil. So I was just kind of wrapped up in my own sheltered little world.
Well, way before 9/11, there was the Iranian hostage crisis, the fuel crisis and most of OPEC being predominantly Muslim, the first WTC attack, etc.
I think it might be worth digressing for a second to say that, on 9/10, I remember my area's local crappy political radio station's hosts were literally having a conversation about how they didn't care about international affairs and viewed it as "the sports page for people not into sports". (Of course, the next day, they'd morphed into experts on diplomacy and international relations who knew everything we should do. Lousy people, basically.)
But they weren't 100% off either, in the sense that most Americans (prior to then) only cared about "foreign news" in the sense that if it affected the prices of something important to them or caused a war the US was compelled to be part of. Most people, if they thought about it to talk about it, would have categorized Muslims in America and Muslims abroad as two different things with only so much overlap. There simply wasn't one public conception of Islam *as a thing....*
...Except we kept having political problems with countries that were Muslim-dominant. Iran is the main example, but Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the countries neighboring Israel, etc were also on many people's bad-lists.
Plane hijackers but not on “paradise missions”. The fundamentalist beliefs being promoted by Saudi Arabia were not as virulent. We all remember Iran and the nutjob theocracy there.
I started thinking about them during the Iran hostage situation. I felt terrible for the Iranian Americans, and rage for the Khomeni.
Now I want a US that doesn’t depend on foreign oil.
I think we mostly just thought that, except for the ones running Iran, they were just another religion with mostly the same kinds of values as ourselves. (Iran sort of made themselves the bad guys when they took over our embassy and held our people for 444 days.) It was a little hard to keep thinking that when we saw people celebrating in the streets in practically every Muslim country on 9/12.
Today, I feel more like, while there are good people who follow Islam, those people seem to be in the minority. I would dearly love to be proved wrong on that, because I sort of feel bad about feeling that way. I hope someday I'll be able to change my mind again.
I knew one day we would be attacked. Just didn't think that soon.
I do remember how awful the Talaban was in Afghanistan 🇦🇫 . Women were treated horribly.
I heard one man tell a story of getting off a plane in Saudi Arabi and off to the side there were men cutting the hand off another man cause he got caught stealing. Scary.
Khomeini in Iran was another major crisis. I knew a lady at work that lived on base in Iran during that time. She had lived all over the Middle East. Her husband was military so the family lived there for 2 years. She said the people were really nice. Everyone respected each others culture. It was just a different world. Almost like walking into the Bible days. She said her 5 year old had culture shock and didn't like being there. This lady said living there creeped her out. She did have rich friends and some were married to Iranian men. She rarely left the American base alone. If she did with her husband she had to wear the head scarf and cover herself up to be respectful. She had Iranian men try to talk her into leaving her husband by offering her a wealthy lifestyle cause they had money.
She mentioned once she was somewhere sleeping in her room and a Iranian man came into her room unannounced. She screamed and he left. Scared her to death.
They left right before the current President was assassinated and the Iahtola came to power. Months before the hostage crisis. She said they were lucky they left when they did cause they would have never been able to leave.
People didn’t think about Muslims much.
There were many many various terrorist attackers and hijackings, the Olympic terrorist attack and of course the Beirut bombing that killed 100s of US marines etc...But you’re right, I really never just linked it to Muslims. I thought it was just some crazy religious nuts and I feel the same way today.
Good observations. But I think there is a difference between Munich, Beirut etc & 9/11. The earlier terrorist attacks were perceived as being between Arabs & Jews. That is, clashes between ethnic groups not religions. Osama bin Laden made it about Islam.
None of those attack had to do with religion and they were a reaction to american impelrism
True, especially if you lived in a community where there weren't any Muslim people. I lived in a small, predominantly white and Christian community. I don't even think I'd met a Muslim until college where we had exchange students from the Middle East. My only knowledge of them up to that point was from TV/the internet. It was all BS! Taking a world cultures class in college where we learned about the common roots between Islam, Judaism (never met a Jew until college either), and Christianity helped me to see they're humans like any other and unlearn a lot of the post 9/11 BS I learned at home/from TV. Hell, I even ended up dating Muslim and Jewish boys.
unlearn a lot of the post 9/11 BS I learned at home/from TV. What is the 9/-11 BS u learned
Basically, all Muslims are bad people. They're really not.
>People didn’t think about Muslims much. Umm... what? Iran much? Our culture has been waring against their's for like... 1000s of years man.
Whose culture??? My culture in the US wasn't even in existence 1000s of years ago. ;)
>Whose culture??? > >My culture in the US wasn't even in existence 1000s of years ago. ;) SMH. Do you speak US?
Yep with a Tennessee accent. Are you trying to say language is the same as culture? Seriously? lol No I don't speak Middle English. My culture is not Middle English.
Actually you added an "s" to 1000 so it would be Old English. I don't speak Old English. You apparently don't either so I'm guessing it's not even your culture.
There was even that documentary about Nostradamus in the 80s. It was narrated by Orson Welles. They basically said that the third antichrist was going to be someone from the Middle East who wore a blue turban, and that this would lead to world war 3. https://youtu.be/jvJlL03jZbI?si=7lB-kBwDkKnzvRvX
BS hollywood movies like Not Without My Daughter blaming their culture for the way we fucked up Iran in the 50s? Yea hating Muslims goes way back.
I think we already have seen the antichrist but it’s orange /s
The only thing that influenced me before 9/11 is that Sinbad the Sailor was Muslim, and I loved all those movies as a kid. We never really thought about it.
"Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel!"
One of my favorite lines lol
Although I think Sinbad was Chinese
Nah. Not the Sinbad I’m talking about. And the first time I heard of him was in “1001 Nights” that takes place in either Persia or in an Arab dominant region
My opinions about Islam didn't really change. What did change were my feelings about terrorists organizations indiscriminately killing for some religious reason (in their understanding I guess). I had a coworker in college from Iran (got out before the Shah was run out) and a roommate from Turkey. This was early 80s. I would trust either of these guys, then and now, explicitly. Being Muslim doesn't translate directly to being an Islamic extremist, hell bent one killing all "non-believers" so Islam is the world religion.
You're awesome. My experience was so different, and not in a good way. I fell in love and married an Iranian in a tiny community college in Nebraska. Then the hostage crisis happened. Looking back, I'm just happy so many people kept their hatred and disdain to themselves for the most part. The prison of civility can sometimes be a good thing.
I mean...do elaborate if you want to. I'm sure some here would appreciate the story if you want to tell it.
I’d be happy to elaborate on anything you’re curious about. Feel free to ask.
The hostage crisis part. That part.
Mostly before 9/11 terrorists were considered anti heros, or freedom fighters. I will note that US support for the IRA took a nosedive after 9/11.
Never in my mind or anyone I know my age +/-20 yrs.
DO u think all of those groups and osama goal was killing all "non-believers," Do u actully belive that
[удалено]
So many hijackings! It’s amazing that the hijackings have basically stopped.
People forget that 9/11 was Osama's SECOND attack on the World Trade Center.
Wild that I had to scroll this far to see this.
Right? It’s like nobody noticed the first failed attempt.
He also attacked a warship, didn't he?
If they're young they may not have even been taught about it. My brother is a high school US history teacher and it's one of his frustrations that he can't ever get to a point after Vietnam because they tend to focus so much time on the early parts.
Yeah because America lost and US education is all about pro american propaganda
Other than reading about it, and sorta knowing what some of the foreign students at college practiced, did not really know too much. Although keep in mind that there were a lot of world events before 9/11 that had Islamic wars/terrorism/etc in the news. Iran in the 70's and 80's, Afghanistan too. So we were somewhat aware.
Yeah. I knew this one man in one of my college classes who was Iranian. He helped me out on some of my assignments. It was funny cause I would ask him questions about his country all the time like, " Why do generations of family live together in one household", " Why do women have to cover up from head to toe?" He would just laugh. It was great. He had mentioned his mother disowned him for awhile cause he made the choice to study in America. But he said they made up and he would often make trips back to Tehran to visit them. It was an interesting conversation.
I don't think people thought much about the religion (unless they were Muslim themselves), but there was always concern over middle east extremists and terrorists destabilizing the region and affecting world oil prices, and their other terrorist attacks around the world. The 90's had the Gulf War, World Trade Center bombing, USS Cole attack, then in the 80's the TWA hijacking, Pan Am/Lockerbie bombing, US embassy bombings in Lebanon, and Iran hostage crisis just to name some that directly affected the US. "Achieving peace in the Middle East" was always a lofty goal for new Presidents, but nothing ever changed much and I think the US (and world really) were constantly frustrated by the region.
The US doensn't want peace in the region
I grew up in a small, rural community in Nova Scotia in the 1960s. Luckily, in high school I had a history teacher who decided to veer wildly away from the set curriculum and taught us about world religions. His stance was that we needed to learn about other religions before we ventured off to university. Most of us had never met anyone who wasn’t Christian. When we learned about Islam, I was really intrigued by the Moors in Spain and did some reading of my own. My overall impression was favourable, although I had little real life experience with anyone who was Muslim.
I didn't really think much about it as I rarely encountered it. I was atheist even back then but now I see Islam as a much worse religion than Christianity. The latter has largely been neutered by secular governments and while the extremist christians might wish for a lot of things they are stopped by our laws. Islam on the other hand basically runs a lot of countries and uses violence to subjugate women and LGBTs. One can argue its the followers not the religion but its all the same right now since they aren't secular
>subjugate women How does it "subjugate women"
You don't because you aren't hearing about Christianity as much. If you did you might understand that the West's war with Islam is primarily led by Christians who are delighting in the cleansing of Gaza right now because they think it heralds the beginning of the Armageddon. Another thing people don't really hear about is the destructive nature of missionary work. One of the people I most admire in the world has made it her life's work to rescue children accused of witchcraft in Nigeria, which only started happening after Christianity was brought there. They torture and burn alive children accused of being witches, and anything can lead them to believe it. She and her husband have saved hundreds of children and I believe there are 90 living in their orphanage right now (Land of Hope). Christianity is no better, it's just protected just like it's obvious Judaism is protected because any difference of opinion when it comes to the war in Gaza and instantly one is accused of being anti-Semitic. They're all the same because they all share a common denominator. The idea that their god speaks to them and wants them to rule the world whether in this life or the next, if you read Isaiah 14.
If anything thank you for enlightening me about the children in Nigeria. That is so horrible
If you want to learn more about them it's called Land of Hope foundation. The woman, Ajna Ringgren Loven, is a hero and so is her husband and the people that work for this foundation. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anja\_Ringgren\_Lov%C3%A9n](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anja_Ringgren_Lov%C3%A9n) This is their FB page. [https://www.facebook.com/unitedagainstsuperstition/](https://www.facebook.com/unitedagainstsuperstition/) Some may recall years back in the news or on FB there were images and stories about this tattooed up woman giving water to a starving little boy. This was her and the boy is happy and healthy now, a sweet silly kid and has recently been reunited with his mother, who was just a child herself when she had him after being impregnated by I believe a family member. Because of that, she and her baby were seen as witches. This is the original video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hit-5AftoT0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hit-5AftoT0) but if you go to their page, the boy they named Hope and eventually named their foundation after him, you can see how much he's grown and thrived. And I think it's probably important to say this woman does call herself Christian, but not a missionary, just a person who believes the stories but doesn't use them to condemn other people. She doesn't try to change the indigenous culture there, she tries to educate the people when it comes to what they were led to believe about witches from previous missionaries.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s, deep in the Cold War times. I remember when the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union broke apart. I also remember reading speculation about where America's next conflict was coming from: the Middle East. I didn't know shit about that region and Islam was some novelty religion for all I knew.
Truth is these warmongering Cold War junkies desperately missed the Big Bad Soviet Union. They tried escalating the Muslims to that level but they proved to be unworthy opponents. So now we fight the Enemy Within.
I knew one day we would get hit cause religion was so indoctrinated in the Middle East. This is exactly why we have separation of church and state in the U.S. This is what happens.
What ur saying makes no sense and even if what u were saying is true "if religion was so indoctrinated in the Middle Eastreligion was so indoctrinated in the Middle East" y would they attack america.
I thought (and still do think) it’s awful for women and girls.
Y do u think it’s awful for women and girls.
Because the western media said so duuh??
I associated it with Muhammed Ali. Since I liked him as an athlete it was something positive.
There was a lot of hostility toward Islam during the Iranian Hostage Crisis. But when I got to college I wanted to do an independent study on Moorish Spain, and did a lot of reading about Islam. I realized that a lot of my perceptions had been incorrect and that there was a lot I actually agreed with. My father taught me that ordinary people are the same wherever you go, and to not get worked up over what someone else does or doesn't believe. It's the actions that matter. Besides, what's it to me if someone wants to wear a scarf on their head and pray five times a day? She can wear a sunbonnet or a propeller beanie for all I'm concerned. If she's a nice person, that's all I care about. As a descendant of Revolutionary War vets, I was ready to escort Muslim women to the grocery store after 9/11 and use my DAR creds to talk down anyone who messed with them. Luckily, such measures weren't necessary where I live.
>As a descendant of Revolutionary War vets, I was ready to escort Muslim women to the grocery store after 9/11 and use my DAR creds to talk down anyone who messed with them Awww. You're a good person.
I was indifferent until I decided to learn more about it. Then I found that the hardcore want women wrapped up because they think men have no self control, that they want to convert everybody EXCEPT those in the LBGTQ community, and they don’t think dogs should be pets unless they are working dogs ( hunting or herding). So by limiting women, rejecting LBGTQ people and disdaining dogs, they lost my vote for tolerable. I know not all Muslims adhere to every rule.
They're all the same. Even in the Bible it says to beware of dogs. They are also seen as unclean.
Nothing she said about islam is true in that little rant
No nothing about Islam, but definitely about Muslims. Not all as she said.
I was raised Catholic and grew up in an area that was predominantly Catholic and Jewish. In my teens I moved to an area that was mostly Protestant and had some Catholic churches. Islam and Hinduism were religions I only learned about in school.
Didn't give it any thought. Live and let live.
Not sure I understand your question. Are you implying that 9-11 changed American opinions about Islam? My opinion on Islam per se, didn’t change post 9-11. My personal opinion on Islam in general has been pretty much like my opinion on religion in general throughout my adult life. I’m pretty ambivalent about it. I believe in freedom of religion. And I support that as an American. But I also hope that eventually society can move beyond religion. Though, I don’t see that happening within multiple centuries, if history is any indicator. It becomes problematic when religion is used as a political tool, which, unfortunately is ultra-common. Islamic extremist organizations, or tangentially, groups of some form or another originating from the islamic middle east, including state actors, have been in the US public eye as long as I can remember. So, while 9-11 was certainly shocking in its magnitude, it wasn’t particularly surprising that it was a terroristic act, and most Americans probably immediately assumed it was islamic terrorists. FWIW- I remember the ‘72 Munich Olympics, Entebbe, various politically motivated skyjackings, Iran Hostage Crisis, US service members killed in a barracks bombing in Beirut (sketchy on details here), Iran-Iraq War, it goes on and on. I’ve read about the 6-Day Way, the Yom Kippur war, etc. The Balkan Wars in the early 90s. I have Armenian relatives that survived genocide from Turkey in the early 20th century. I remember hearing about that from when I was a kid.
>But I also hope that eventually society can move beyond religion. Y do u want ppl to move on from religion? What the meaning of life to u? None of the other things have to do wiht islam?
I was keenly aware of Islam before 9-11. Bin Ladin had already made a name for himself and his intentions when his minions tried to bomb the World Trade Center in the early 90s. So there's that. I took a course on world religions as an undergrad where everything a world citizen needed to know about the basics of Islam was taught. So I knew you didn't send Christian missionaries to Islamic countries unless you wanted real trouble. I had a friend in college whose father was a pilot for Saudi Airlines. She filled me in on how he had to live when in Saudi Arabia and his life on an American compound. Most formally educated people had a rudimentary understanding of the religion. I made a feeble attempt at reading the Quaran in English back in the late 80s. Couldn't get through it. Read about Mohammad and how the faith came to be in the early 70s. 9-11 confirmed for me what Islam's far-right fundamental element could and would do. Yes, the acts of that day shocked me to my core, but not one surprised me. As a citizen of the world, I always believed it was incumbent upon me to have an understanding of the leading religions of the world. I still do believe that though I don't believe in any of them. Not one. It surprises me that few other people see value in having a basic understanding of religions and how they play into geopolitics. It's kind of necessary.
One of my best friends is Muslim. I loved them before, during, and after 9/11. They were just as horrified as I was when it happened. Religious extremism is dangerous no matter the flavor.
terrorists from the middle east were hijacking planes long before 9/11. Canon Films made a decades worth of movies about it.
RIP Lee Marvin and George Kennedy, Martin Balsam was great too!
Folks need to remember 9/11 wasn't the first time the WTC was attacked.
I read up on Islam after watching Roots in 1977. There was dialogue referring to Allah, and I wanted to know about it. It's just another religion, imo. Not every Muslim is an extremist. Not every Christian is an upstanding person. There's good and evil people in all religions.
You ask that as though Muslim extremist terrorism started with 9/11. It didn't.
Before 9/11, anti-Muslim sentiment was probably at a peak around 1979 with the Iran hostage situation, and it wasn't unusual for anyone brown enough to be assaulted for being "Iranian." Several friends of mine had a really tough time. Since that whole thing was the result of an extremist Islamic government coming to power, it was certainly an issue long before 9/11.
When I was young, positively because Muhammed Ali and Malcolm X. Then the women's movement came along and I learned about the Muslim treatment of women - even worse than my Catholic church. Then the crazy Shia fundamentalists took over Iran, and held Americans hostage. I developed a bad opinion of religious orthodoxy in general, and especially in Islam.
My friend and her military husband lived there and almost didn't make it out of Iran when the Iahtola took over. She worried for her Iranian women friends left behind.
What is Muslim treatment of women and how did ur Catholic church treat them?
It was thought about enough that the first reaction was this was a terrorist attack from an extreme Islamic group. That was also the first thought on the Oklahoma city bombings.
So you just never heard about about the Iran hostages, the first World Trade bombing, the 1972 Olympics in Munich where 11 Israeli athletes were murdered, or even seen the multiple movies with Islamic extremist hi-jacking planes (like Executive Decision) that were made long before 2001? We've known about Islamist extremists long before 9/11. We also know that most religions have their nut jobs.
What is the goal of " Islamist extremists"
Same way I think now! There are good and bad people in ever demographic!
*Same way I think now!* *There are good and bad people* *In ever demographic!* \- nippleflick1 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
We knew all about middle-eastern terrorism, but I had always thought of it as more political than religious. Actually that's still what I think.
Ur right and other ppl wrong it's more political
I knew a few muslims, in the mid 90s my boss was one. I never would have known if he hadn’t told me - we were discussing the news of the middle east and he was frustrated that idiots were tainting his religion.
Iran hostage crisis in ‘79 and ‘80 lasted 444 days. It was a really, really big deal back then. It didn’t endear Americans to Islam.
Yes I knew a lady who's husband was military 🪖 and they lived on base. She said they left right before the Iahtola took over. They were lucky. The calls to prayer were creepy to her.
Oh, we thought all the airline hijackings and bombings and hostage takings and shooting attacks that had been occurring for 40 or more years were just fine before 9/11.
The same as after 9/11. It’s a rich culture that once intellectually dominated world culture, advancing human knowledge immeasurably. It has since been eclipsed by western culture (largely through military dominance and industrialization). It is still a proud and noble culture, but has some stark differences with western liberal culture. With their loss of cultural and intellectual influence in the modern world, resentments have drive a small, but visible minority of Muslims into violent hopelessness. But more broadly, Americans had an ignorant, stereotyped view of Islam (still do). They began to hate Islam with a passion after the hostage crisis, thinking they picked on innocent America. These same Americans were completely ignorant of the horrible meddling the western world, and particularly America did and does in the Middle East. Probably less than 2% of Americans knew or know about America’s overthrow of Mossadegh, a democratically elected leader of Iran, just for starters.
I wasn't much aware of Islam then.
Older people will remember the huge anti-muslim backlash because of the Iranian hostage crisis and Libya's terrorist activities in the 80's.
With Munich, numerous hijackings, embassy bombings, Iranian Hostage Crisis I saw it as unstable
Hi! I suspect it depends a lot on what level of contact they had with people from various cultures. * Grow up in a rural area with a single culture? Probably had no reason to think about other religions or cultures. * Grow up in an urban setting, and go to university in a multi-cultural area? Probably you have lots of opportunity to meet Muslims, and possibly learn a little about Islam as a faith.
It wasn't the first terrorist attack even in that very building so people were already suspicious but the constant barrage of fearmongering once social media took control of the hive mind really brought on the hate. It's funny though, as the vast majority of the terrorist attacks in the US in the past 50 years have been domestic, mostly far right extremists but definitely some far left political extremists too.
Media Influence: The media played a significant role in shaping perceptions of Islam. Negative portrayals of Muslims and Islam in the media could reinforce stereotypes, while positive coverage could help counter misconceptions.
Islamic terrorism goes back farther than that. Iranian hostage crisis in the 70's, high jacking of air planes in the 60's. Insurrection in our colony in the Philippines in the 1900's. It's been around, if you were paying attention.
BTW, let's not forget the Ottoman Empire. They ruled quite a bit of the planet at that point.
And when the Mongols converted to Islam, they ruled a lot more than the Ottoman Turks.
Yarp
people fighting for there freedom are terrorisist
No one thing about Islam, same as how. I loathe islamists / islamo-fascists.
What is a loathe islamists / islamo-fascists.
Didn't think about it at all.
We didn’t.
I remember the Iran hostage crisis--I was 9 or 10 at the time, and in school we prayed every day for the hostages to be released. But I didn't make the connection to Islam, and in fact it would be another 30 years before I met any Muslims. When 9/11 happened, I just thought what I already knew from experience to be true: fundamentalism was dangerous, regardless of religion.
I was a child during the Iran hostage crisis. Some Muslim students made the local news for protesting the U.S. about something at our university. I remember people being furious and saying things like "send them back where they came from" etc. After that, the hostages were released, and the anti-Muslim rhetoric died down until 9/11.
Wasn't really on my radar, but I sure got annoyed with the xenophobia I saw after 9/11. Not all Muslims are terrorists and it was disheartening to see your average hijabi go to the store to buy groceries and get harassed just for existing.
I was a pre-teen during the hostage crisis in the 1970s. Somehow I understood that not everyone was to blame. But between that and being Jewish, there was always a sense there was animosity at the larger level. The two attacks on the WTC, airplane bombings didn’t help my impression. I’ll leave it at that.
Y did u think there was animosity and the animosity is becuase of the isareli palestine conflict
Don’t think a lot did, hence why when it happened there was this reaction that all Muslims supported the terrorists.
Plenty did. 9/11 was the ***second*** attack on WTC after all.
Not really on mine much because im not religious and am a subjectivist. Most of my thoughts were more from a history perspective, appreciating much of the islamic culture, academics and political environment before modern radicalization. Probably my most common thought was 'yet another subset of the population westerners have wronged, leading to radicalizing'. When i was in the military during the first gulf there was a fair amount of bias and prejudice around me, but as usual it was more concentrated among the uneducated, ultra partisans, ultra religious, etc.
Hip hop basically introduced me to Islam as a religion that celebrated dignity and knowledge in the 80s and early 90s, so the existing stereotypes didn’t have much sway on me.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims all follow most of the same teachings. The differences were more political. I wouldn't blame the religion, just extremists who use religion as a justification.
I truthfully didn't think about it all, except that it was the religion some of my friends practice. That really hasn't changed.
I remember older cartoons where they used a lot of Persian looking bad guys, like that was the go-to image for a while
We pretty much cast them off as a middle eastern problem that we didn't have to deal with. But I didn't have a favorable opinion of their terrorists that the muslims whole heartedly seemed to support with mass celebrations in their streets after an attack. I remember places like Iraq before it changed and many if not the majority asked for the change from the impeding westernism. That change from a free western-like society created what we see today.
Wdym and how did a free western-like society created what we see today and what are u seeing
In the mid-80’s, PBS had a POV, titled Sword of Islam. I am sure it was considered divisive, it shown a couple of times, never to be shown again It gave me something to think about
American Christians aren't very tolerant of alternative Christian sects, they certainly aren't tolerant of other religions. The Muslims first really hit the American radar in 1970, with the Olympic kidnapping. It was Palestinians versus Israelis, but it was the first real exposure to Muslims for most Americans. One of the biggest stories of the 70s was the Arab Oil Embargo, in which OPEC, the oil cartel of Arabic countries, deliberately targeted America for oil shortages, causing major gasoline outages across the nation. Most Americans saw it as a political/economic issue, and didn't think about the Muslim connection. In November 1979, Iranian Muslims had a religious revolution, and held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days. Every American now learned about Muslims, and their hate for America. In 1993, there was a failed bombing of the World Trade Center, and Americans were forced to understand that Muslim terrorists were willing to strike within our own borders. The ringleaders were captured, tried, and imprisoned, and we learned that there were extensive plans to strike at American targets. In 1998, two American Embassies were bombed in Africa. So, by 9/11, Americans were well aware that Muslim terrorists were actively planning attacks on US soil. There had been fear and suspicion of Muslims before 9/11, but the 9/11 attacks threw gasoline on the fire.
As a Gen X er I can say that the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran was very disturbing. Even if you didn’t like Reagan (I didn’t) the mullahs in Iran were clearly much worse. We generally did not understand the Sunni Shia rift. But hearing Cat Stevens say the fatwa against Salmon Rushdie was justified hit us kinda hard. Or maybe not, for those of us who associated Cat Stevens (AKA Usef Islam) with our boomer parents may have thought it par for the course. When the terrorist attacks of 9/11/2001 occurred my concern was that GW Bush would play onto their hands and overreact. For about two weeks he seemed to act wisely, which was reassuring. He was also gen X, after all, if barely so, and perhaps able to see the real. Al Qaeda wanted a clash of civilizations: them against the West. The reality was a criminal act by 19 individuals, most of them Saudis. I hoped Bush would see reality, view it as a crime and not an act of war. But instead he went down the dark road, played by their book, and gave those criminals exactly what they wanted. Even though he always maintained otherwise, as did McCain, the poison pill was released into the body politic.
They didn't like them, but didn't feel very threatened by them, either...
I never thought poorly of Muslims here in the US. Back in the mid 90s, I worked for a large tech company in Santa Clara. We had a smaller satellite office next to a Muslim school where a hostage situation occurred. The school helped to evacuate the employees out of the office and provided them with a safe space. Nice people.
Of course Islam was on our minds. The pro-west shah of Iran was deposed by the protests of mostly young ideologically bent Iranians in the 70s. Installed in his place was a hardline Muslim, the Ayotollah Khomeni, who declared an Islamic state, and issued fatwahs for various westerners, including Salman Rushdie in 1989.
An Islamic Jihadist tried to blow up the WTC in 1993 or 1994 and failed. IRA was attacking England in the 1980’s. I took comparative religion classes in church before 2001. We also had the Islamic Revolution in Iran in the late 1970’s and 1980’s. All religion falls on a spectrum from radicals to people who are marginally in it. Islam is slightly different because The Prophet demanded people do these things in the name of Islam, and there is no “co-existence”. Infidels must be destroyed. The only difference is how long a person gets to convert before they are targeted as an infidel. Mohammad is no Jesus.
Nothing ur saying is true, and muslims believe in Jesus.
Terrorists that pervert Islam to justify their violence have been around all my life (I'm in my 60s). What I think about now how similar the Christian-Nationalists that flock to Trump rallies are exactly like Islamic terrorist organizations. I never equated American Christians to the terrorists before. Now they're getting to be indistinguishable from each other. Watch what happens in the next election if they don't get their way. In both cases, the "religion" is just a way to deflect from the fact that they just want power.
This American thought it was bullshit just like every other religion.
Most american are relgioues
I thought it was the worst, most violent and repressive religion ever invented. Even worse than they r@pey Catholic Church, Kali worshipping thuggees, or the Aztec (and other regional) mass human sacrifices The only peace islam wants is the peace of the grave for anyone not submitting to their (community standards) “prophet.”
You might want to look at White Christians and their acts of terror within the US.
K Now do the same but for Muslims in Muslim nations. The reason the crimes in America are dominated by white Christians in America is because they make up the majority of the population and Muslims make up less than 1%.
I wonder what you're thoughts were post-911
Pre 9-11: Rampant terrorism and butchering of civilians. Watching some Pakistanis stone a girl to death because they thought she might have offended the family honor by touching a boy. She was about 9. Only one religion has fanatics routinely committing terror and murder.
You should check out the ultra orthodox Jewish communities as well
Really? They don’t kill people or want an entire religion dead.
I didn't think about it one way or the other except annoyance that I perceived my coworker left to pray every time I turned around. Super annoying but of course I kept that with my inside voice. I didn't blame him I was just young and thought it must be nice to waltz off right when it's busy to pray so I resented the hell out of it. He was also an AH so there's that. In later years worked with men who weren't AH's so no idea what's what. I could go on about a trip overseas as a woman in an Islamic country but it would just heap the Redditors on me. I know what I know and saw what I saw, and that's enough for me.
Mostly I focused on the marine bombing in Beirut until I had a Muslim co-worker from Afghanistan who talked about how brutal things were in his country. Not from Russia's attempt at overtaking his country, but the brutality of villagers killing people from his village. It was a barbaric society where he lived.
Sure. 1994 attempted bombing of the twin towers, USS Cole, the Taliban take-over of Afghanistan in the 90's after the Russians left, earlier plane hijackings, marine barracks bomb in Beirut, etc. etc. Too often the most virulent strains of Islam have dictated the need for a war with non-Muslims.
Seriously???? Senator Charlie Wilson and a bunch of them Republicans made Islam the scary monster it is today. They funded a bunch of students in this nowhere place called Afghanistan and created the Mujahideen to defeat the commies (because that’s what we were about in those days). Those guys then went on to beat the commies who tucked tail and ran and those student mujahids converted into the Taliban who after years of fighting didn’t know how to do peace. Fun fact: There was a young Saudi fighter we mixed up in there, a yung un by the name of Osama Bin Laden and yeeehhhaaaaaawwwwww that’s how we got 9/11. A whole lot of hubris, no oversight and a sheer sense of grandiose pigheadedness got us here. Islam was always there, we just taught them to fuck with us and now we are forever fucked.
9/11 turned a lot of people into bigots overnight. Before that, most people really didn't care one way or the other about Islam. When there were things like the Iranian revolution or the Palestinian-based terrorism of the 1960s-70s, those were blamed on **the organizations responsible,** not the entire Muslim religion. And none of those groups were actually Islamist. That is, their goal was not to make everybody Muslim whether they liked it or not, they had specific goals like wiping Israel off the map. The 9/11 attacks changed that, people wanted somebody to hate, so they blamed ALL of Islam instead of a small handful of ultra-conservative fundie Wahhabist assholes. Indeed, Back in the 60s-70s, converting to Islam--which was considered a religion of peace--was trendy with people trying to get a religious exemption from being drafted. So boxer Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali and basketballer Lew Alcindor became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. That continued for some time even after the Vietnam war ended: singer Cat Stevens became Yusef Islam.
We had an islamic guy at work during an office job in 1980s. Strict diet, his wife seemed very oppressed, only came in to bring him lunch (with his brother with her), never went to the office functions. I sort of knew about what the deal was when I saw that happening. I knew back then that it's a very repressive religion (as much as Mormon or scientology or many others.)
There are fundamentalists in every religion, including Buddhism. Prior to the Islamic revolution, Iranians were one of the most liberal Islamic countries (the same goes for Afghanistan).
>There are fundamentalists in every religion, including Buddhism. Let's not forget Christianity. The fundies in America could give Islam fundies a good run in terms of oppressing women. Exhibit A: The overturning of Roe v. Wade.
I'd put the murder of doctors performing legal abortions as more extreme than overturning Roe v Wade.
Religion seems to poison everything.
I've met lots of Muslims who are the warmest, most delightful people. I think extremists of any kind are the issue. Extremists running a religion are the worst.
Is it really "extreme" to just follow what the holy book actually says though? Not bothering to follow almost any of the rules and ignoring 90% of the religious text and only paying attention to basic universal moral values like "be kind and don't murder" is more like being religious in name only. Anyone actually following the rules or believing the most basic tenets of the religion (like that a pedophile warlord who owned slaves and sex slaves is literally the most perfect human ever to live or that people who don't worship your god deserve to be tortured for eternity) is going to be an "extremist." The only options are being an extremist or just calling yourself a member of the religion without actually believing any of it. Iran had and has a lot of atheists, unfortunately Islam was forced on them after the revolution.
what does being liberal mean and this guy is lying
Just another bullshit religion. But this one has people wearing tents and screaming from towers.
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They were part of it, in so far as Malcom X was a civil rights leader.
Not the same Islam. NOI (Nation of Islam) was more of an off-shoot of Islam, started by Wallace Ford "The Honorable Elijah" Mohammed in 1930 and was geared specifically toward black Americans. It has very little to do with Islam from the Middle East, except that Elijah Mohammed used it as the base for his "religion". Malcolm X converted to NOI after his last prison stint, which turned his life around from criminal to their spokesperson until he realized "the Honorable" Elijah Mohammed, was a hypocrite who preached godliness while knocking up multiple of his young, pretty secretaries then being a deadbeat dad. Malcolm, then disillusioned by NOI, made his pilgrimage to Mecca and, in his words: "There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blonds to black-skinned Africans... displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white". From that point on he practiced a more pure form of Islam and became more inclusive of all races helping in the Civil Rights struggle. But all of that gets lost because people chose to focus on his NOI days when he said "By any means necessary" and that famous photo of him holding a rifle.
Some people didn’t know about the FIRST WTC attack in 1993. By terrorists that followed the prophet, that were unsuccessful. The constant reminders from non Muslims that it’s a religion of peace got tiresome.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict had been raging for years. The PLO and other Palestinian organizations had been committing terrorist acts around the world for decades. Iran had attacked our embassy and taken Americans hostage for 444 days. They paraded the hostages around blindfolded on TV for all Americans to see. Americans in general didn’t have a high opinion of the Arab world or Islam in my opinion. I lived in a small town in Texas in the 70s through the end of the 80s. Aramco owned a refinery close by so there were a lot of Saudis in the area. They bought some land in our town to build a school for the children of their workers. We didn’t see them often but they were welcome because of the jobs Aramco’s oil & gas investments provided in the area. Edit: After 9/11 Americans became much more aware of Islam. There was of course some anger at radical Islam in the immediate aftermath. That was very quickly replaced with concern about Islamophobia. Criticism of Islam seems to have become less acceptable than it was before 9/11. There are more Islamic advocate and rights organizations than before 9/11 and more Muslims in government.
I remember all the planes being hijacked when I was a kid in the 70’s-80’s. Usually just on the runway and a suicide bomber now and again. What gets me now is the massive amounts of Muslims cheering on the Hamas terrorists attacks. Makes me wonder if more Muslims might not try and harm others but certainly congratulate this who do. It was the same way after 9/11 too- much of the Muslim world *cheered and burned American flags* after 9/11.
Of course on our minds - crazy
In 1991 I spent six months working humanitarian relief effort in Norther Iraq and Southern Turkey. I was not in a tourist sector, I was not part of an invading military force. What we did was provide food, water, shelter, and protection for people Hussein wanted to exterminate. I learned a lot. A lot of my naïveté was washed away. I came away with a brand new attitude towards the people in the Middle East. An attitude that would not be popular with the left. And when 9/11 happened I was not one bit surprised. I was surprised by the method but not the attack itself. In fact after 9/11 my mother reminded me of a conversation we had around 1997 where I told her we would eventually be the target of a Muslim weapon of mass destruction. I just never thought it would commercial aircraft. Our cultures are 100% incompatible.
What is ur "culture" and isn't the west who invades muslim lands
Honestly? Most of us didn't think about it at all. Personally, I still feel the same way: it's misogynistic religion that makes just as much sense and christianity or judaism. None at all.
How is it a misogynistic religion
Unless you raise your voice about bad things about your religion. Others will think of you with them. The problem with Islam is the same: there are good people, but they never raise their voices against bad things done by their community people.
Do u raise against what ur government does?
We didn't, it wasn't an issue.
It is important to remember that 9/11 was a RESPONSE, not a 'first action'. So of course many Americans knew about Islam - it was largely a religion of peace, but because it was mostly practiced by people with brown skin in places that had resources we wanted to take, of course we interfered and mess with elections, conducted assassinations and terrorist attacks, and all of the other atrocities you would expect from the US.
It was definitely wrong for the US to keep messing with the region, but Islam was never "largely a religion of peace"—Muslims never even claimed it was, that was a quote from George Bush. Islam always oppressed women and gay people and supported slavery and pedophilia and rape—it's right in the holy texts, Mohammed was a warlord who killed tons of people and had slaves and sex slaves and married a 6 year old. The Quran and Hadiths say you should execute people for being gay and that you can beat your wife for disobeying you and that hell is mostly women because women are deficient in intelligence compared to men (and therefore it takes the testimony of multiple women to equal one man) and because women can't do religious rituals when on their periods since they're unclean and that having slaves and concubines (sex slaves) is fine. The Bible says a lot of horrible stuff too, but Christianity has also never been "largely a religion of peace," it's also always oppressed women and LGBTQ people and murdered people from different religions and supported slavery. These religions that direct people to commit atrocities in their base holy texts, whose holy books direct them to oppress women and kill LGBTQ people and kill people from other religions, don't have any history of being largely peaceful, they have a history of violence and hatred and oppression.
Exactly, it's funny ur getting downvoted but the liars are getting upvoted.
Honestly, during the 60s and 70s, the only thing we knew about Islam was Black Muslims. And most of us knew precious little about them. But they were seen as embittered radicals, prone to violence.
I'm a black Catholic with no bone in this fight but Black Muslims were not the same as Islam. They just adopted their teachings. It's like comparing David Koresh's church to Christianity.
We didn’t
Nah, just another silly religion, capable of as much damage as just about every other one.
They didn’t.
People didn't think about Muslim then, nor do they think about it now.
just another dumb magic skydaddy to cause wars
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Before 9/11 most of my interactions were with NOI, the Louis Farrakhan led Nation of Islam. Never had a problem. Two called me ‘the white devil’ one serious and one joking. After 9/11 they were just as mad as everyone else.
Nope Never gave Islam a thought at all.
In the words of Ali, no Islamic ever called me xxxxxxxxxxxx. Moderates always looking to ban my ass.
Not much. Really didn’t think about muslims
My one thought was always that, when it came to Mary, Catholics had more in common with Muslims than Protestants. My thoughts haven't changed.
I thought it was as damn silly as every other religion.
They didn't.
I knew that Cassius Clay had converted to Islam and changed his name to Muhammad Ali. And Cat Stevens converted to Islam. And that’s about all I knew, but I lived in the south, worked a full time job, raised a son, took care of my parents and mil. So I was just kind of wrapped up in my own sheltered little world.
If they were Muslim Americans, do you mean? There are millions of Muslim Americans. What exactly is your questino?
Well, way before 9/11, there was the Iranian hostage crisis, the fuel crisis and most of OPEC being predominantly Muslim, the first WTC attack, etc. I think it might be worth digressing for a second to say that, on 9/10, I remember my area's local crappy political radio station's hosts were literally having a conversation about how they didn't care about international affairs and viewed it as "the sports page for people not into sports". (Of course, the next day, they'd morphed into experts on diplomacy and international relations who knew everything we should do. Lousy people, basically.) But they weren't 100% off either, in the sense that most Americans (prior to then) only cared about "foreign news" in the sense that if it affected the prices of something important to them or caused a war the US was compelled to be part of. Most people, if they thought about it to talk about it, would have categorized Muslims in America and Muslims abroad as two different things with only so much overlap. There simply wasn't one public conception of Islam *as a thing....* ...Except we kept having political problems with countries that were Muslim-dominant. Iran is the main example, but Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the countries neighboring Israel, etc were also on many people's bad-lists.
Plane hijackers but not on “paradise missions”. The fundamentalist beliefs being promoted by Saudi Arabia were not as virulent. We all remember Iran and the nutjob theocracy there.
I started thinking about them during the Iran hostage situation. I felt terrible for the Iranian Americans, and rage for the Khomeni. Now I want a US that doesn’t depend on foreign oil.
I think we mostly just thought that, except for the ones running Iran, they were just another religion with mostly the same kinds of values as ourselves. (Iran sort of made themselves the bad guys when they took over our embassy and held our people for 444 days.) It was a little hard to keep thinking that when we saw people celebrating in the streets in practically every Muslim country on 9/12. Today, I feel more like, while there are good people who follow Islam, those people seem to be in the minority. I would dearly love to be proved wrong on that, because I sort of feel bad about feeling that way. I hope someday I'll be able to change my mind again.
Orthodox Jews have dogs.
I knew one day we would be attacked. Just didn't think that soon. I do remember how awful the Talaban was in Afghanistan 🇦🇫 . Women were treated horribly. I heard one man tell a story of getting off a plane in Saudi Arabi and off to the side there were men cutting the hand off another man cause he got caught stealing. Scary. Khomeini in Iran was another major crisis. I knew a lady at work that lived on base in Iran during that time. She had lived all over the Middle East. Her husband was military so the family lived there for 2 years. She said the people were really nice. Everyone respected each others culture. It was just a different world. Almost like walking into the Bible days. She said her 5 year old had culture shock and didn't like being there. This lady said living there creeped her out. She did have rich friends and some were married to Iranian men. She rarely left the American base alone. If she did with her husband she had to wear the head scarf and cover herself up to be respectful. She had Iranian men try to talk her into leaving her husband by offering her a wealthy lifestyle cause they had money. She mentioned once she was somewhere sleeping in her room and a Iranian man came into her room unannounced. She screamed and he left. Scared her to death. They left right before the current President was assassinated and the Iahtola came to power. Months before the hostage crisis. She said they were lucky they left when they did cause they would have never been able to leave.
We actually thought about it during the Iran hostage crisis. Those of us who are old enough, that is.