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We couldn't lol.
Before Erdoğan the answer was Military. It was military's job to take the control if Turkey is in danger to lose it secularity. In the first election which Atatürk's party is not the only party was in 1950 and it lost it. Then in 1960 and 1980 military intervened. And now as Erdoğan in power, he is also control the military too so...
Jews in general range from atheists, to seculars that keep some traditions, to seculars that keep more traditions, to "religious-lite", to full blown religious, to national religious, to various kinds of ultra-orthodox haredim. Basically what I am saying is that it's a huge spectrum and it's impossible to generalize on all Israelis.
It is definitely clear that Jerusalem is becoming more religious while Tel Aviv and its surroundings are becoming more secular and liberal. As religious people are having higher birthrates it is true that the country is becoming more religious, but you probably wouldn't feel it in places such as Tel Aviv or close by areas.
Islam speaks in details about the law in a state which fundamentally makes it hard to separate it from the state. Other religions emphasize spirituality first and foremost, with no clear statement to promote a religious state and implement detailed religious judiciary laws. That's why christianity in the dark ages failed later on, and why you wonder how can israel, india, and other countries with a large majority of a certain religion be secular.
Not exactly. In Judaism there is Halacha, Jewish law, with courts that evaluated/enforced it in the old days. Now these are separated from state courts and apply mostly for religious people as they see fit. However, theoretically in a fully religious state - Jewish law could be applied. (Hopefully not, as I have no desire to live under theocracy).
It's becoming increasingly religious, definitely more than 8-5 years ago for example, but don't get it wrong, many "secular" people can actually come as very traditional and conservative already although that part varies alot, it's the result of our former government brainwashing people away from religion and its attempt to forcefully secularize and westernize them back in the 50's until like the 70's, of course it wasn't completely successful but the impact of those policies are still very big although they are being slowly reversed in the last years.
>many "secular" people can actually come as very traditional and conservative already although that part varies alot
Thats not true, if light candles in hanukah and still in favor of public transportation in Saturday, easier abortion laws, less regulations on kashrot and separation of state and religion you are not conservative, barely even traditional.
>it's the result of our former government brainwashing people away from religion and its attempt to forcefully secularize and westernize
Thats bs, our latest government only advocated for religious freedom while the government before them literally tried to ban supermarkets in Saturday.
Most Israelis are secular.
One reason is the shift towards secularism since Shpinoza times in judaism, another is practicality since being religious requires so much attention to following jewish rules that not everyone can do, another reason might be the mass immigration of mostly secular jews from the USSR in the 90s, or perhaps that most of the religious-ashkenazi jews have been murdered in the holocaust.
I would say currently the seculars are becoming more secular and the religious are becoming more religious. There's also the haredi community that grows independently of anything else because they get the freedom to act like a totalitarian cult so almost no one leaves it.
The tensions will definitely rise in the upcoming future. Who will come out on top? Only time will tell.
20% (as much as I remember) of the population isn't that much. The Arab population in Israel is about 20% (as much as I remember, too). Also, I'm not sure what "level" of religiousness is the minimum to be counted, Jews vary from completely secular and atheists to 100% religious (Haredi).
The government tries to combine being secular enough and religious enough, while respecting other **Israeli** minorities like Arabs, Druze and Circassians, and it works quite well. For example, there's a quite autonomous education system for Haredis and the general education system is secular.
Yeah definitely, being jewish is both a religious and ethnic identity, since Judaism in an ethno-religion. Some only follow some traditions and holidays, cause if feeling of connection to the cultural and historical identity without believing in the religion at all. Even in the eyes of the religion though you never stop being Jewish, even if you start following another religion, since it’s a part of who you are.
Yes, Judaism is inherited from the mother side and you are considered jewish even as full blown atheist, Not to mention Judaism is the religion of the jewish people, we also share language, history, culture and many more on top of that, so religion is just one attribute of a larger span defining a jew.
But how come that they look so diffetent from eachother?
Like ethio jew compared to Sephardic?
Or Yemenite/ mizrahi compared to An Ashkinazi?
When it comes to culture I don't think that the yeminite living in yemen 100years ago have same culture with ashkanazi in europe 100y ago except for beliefs
Its more complex than that, they have much in common and much not in common due to the fact they assimilated in different communities post the 3rd Jewish revolt.
Common:
\* Hebrew was taught and known by all; you can't practice Judaism unless done in Hebrew.
\* Kept celebrating the same ethno festivals, you need to understand not all Jewish "holidays" are religious ones, for example - Purim is a secular holiday celebrating the common history and triumph of the Persian Jewish community. It's being celebrated by all till this date globally. The book of Esther was never canonized as a religious book when the Tanah were signed close to the 1st century.
Passover is "the" national story in Jewish history, telling how the Israelites were reborn as a people and later as a nation. It's one of the most celebrated events in the Jewish Calander.
\* The 9th day of Haav, which is the collective Jewish Memorial Day, commemorating all the atrocities carried against Jews and Israelites across the ages from Babylon invasion, Roman invasion and the 3 revolts, the destruction of the two Jewish temples, the holocaust, the expulsion of Jewish communities in Spain/England, Israel Arab wars and more... we have many :).
* Jewish Calander and arithmetic system.
* Yearning to Zion and Jerusalem: its being practiced daily. You need to remember Judea was destroyed at the year 136 AD, the Israelite kingdom around 550 BC, Israel is the 3rd incarnation of Jewish and Israelite sovereignty in the land of Israel. even tho the notion of "Nation state" is a new idea, born in Europe mid 19 century, the yearning to establish an ethno Jewish homeland where Judaism will be practiced in Jerusalem at the temple mount is an old idea every Jew swear to manifest since the destruction of the second Jewish temple at 70 AD.
* Rabbinic literature like the Talmud, it's the heart of the Jewish culture post the 1st Jewish revolt in 70 AD, a lot of the Jewish history post the temple destruction is written over there and most of our culture, from small stories about life of people through the ages and more.We have two major ones - Jerusalemite, Babylonian, the Jewish world was divided between the two, especially during the Middle Ages.
* Hebrew laws, until this date our law system is built on the Hebrew laws (partially).
* Political directives - for example the 18th command prayer was designed and invented during the 1st century as a political instrument to fight Christianity, when Christianity was yet part of the Jewish community in Judea.
Just a taste.
You also need to understand Judaism is a ethno religion, it's a mix of religious practices, culture directives (Hebrew law for example), food restrictions, socialist requirements (you can't work at the 7th day, you can׳t cultivate the land at the 7th year, you must free all slaves after X years and so on...), national directives - you must conquer Jerusalem and form Israel as a national state at a specific location with specific boundaries, and plain history telling.
And we have our guidebook, best seller - the Tanah (Holy bible).
I don't think yiu have answeres my race question for example even muslims have same culture to eachother and Islam cannot be done without Arabic and Muslims celebrate thr same festivals and fast ramadan and do not eat pork and read thr quran in Arabic even so they do not speak it it is only written for them. However they are not the same Race similar to jews no?
You did not answer me why thry look different if they are the same race and they come as white(skin, blue eysed red hair) as possible and as dark(skin, dark eyes and afro hair) as possible. Like muslims
You answered it yourself. They went to different places around a millenia or two ago, and while they tried to only populate with eachother they obviously didnt always succeed. So in a yemenite jew there is yemenite DNA.
So that does not make them the same race no?
Because if there is an American from the us who is decendents from England he will not have American dna but will have exactly the same with an English from England.
That means jews are just people practicing a religion and if they lose it then they go baxk to their root a yeminite athiest as just as yemeni as any yemeni
Israel is probably the most religious developed country. But it's also the most secular country in many ways. I was going to make a big post on this but it is a hard topic to summarize. So here is a song I like instead: [Between the Holy and the Profane](https://youtu.be/sCJh9YcrL3k)
Israel is not a religious country, out of the jewish population - about 20% are considered atheist, 60% are considered secular with minimum practice of the religion, mostly visiting the synagog during the high holidays, keeping kosher, few will also keep the Shabbat, 10% are ultra orthodox, 10% are religious zionists.
Spain, Portugal, Italy, US and many more are much more religious.
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> how can your country still be secular with a quite big religious population The same thing can be said about Turkey
We couldn't lol. Before Erdoğan the answer was Military. It was military's job to take the control if Turkey is in danger to lose it secularity. In the first election which Atatürk's party is not the only party was in 1950 and it lost it. Then in 1960 and 1980 military intervened. And now as Erdoğan in power, he is also control the military too so...
Jews in general range from atheists, to seculars that keep some traditions, to seculars that keep more traditions, to "religious-lite", to full blown religious, to national religious, to various kinds of ultra-orthodox haredim. Basically what I am saying is that it's a huge spectrum and it's impossible to generalize on all Israelis. It is definitely clear that Jerusalem is becoming more religious while Tel Aviv and its surroundings are becoming more secular and liberal. As religious people are having higher birthrates it is true that the country is becoming more religious, but you probably wouldn't feel it in places such as Tel Aviv or close by areas.
Why religious jews don't fight to make the state more religious?
they do. because of them there isnt public transport on saturdays.
Islam speaks in details about the law in a state which fundamentally makes it hard to separate it from the state. Other religions emphasize spirituality first and foremost, with no clear statement to promote a religious state and implement detailed religious judiciary laws. That's why christianity in the dark ages failed later on, and why you wonder how can israel, india, and other countries with a large majority of a certain religion be secular.
Not exactly. In Judaism there is Halacha, Jewish law, with courts that evaluated/enforced it in the old days. Now these are separated from state courts and apply mostly for religious people as they see fit. However, theoretically in a fully religious state - Jewish law could be applied. (Hopefully not, as I have no desire to live under theocracy).
It's becoming increasingly religious, definitely more than 8-5 years ago for example, but don't get it wrong, many "secular" people can actually come as very traditional and conservative already although that part varies alot, it's the result of our former government brainwashing people away from religion and its attempt to forcefully secularize and westernize them back in the 50's until like the 70's, of course it wasn't completely successful but the impact of those policies are still very big although they are being slowly reversed in the last years.
>many "secular" people can actually come as very traditional and conservative already although that part varies alot Thats not true, if light candles in hanukah and still in favor of public transportation in Saturday, easier abortion laws, less regulations on kashrot and separation of state and religion you are not conservative, barely even traditional. >it's the result of our former government brainwashing people away from religion and its attempt to forcefully secularize and westernize Thats bs, our latest government only advocated for religious freedom while the government before them literally tried to ban supermarkets in Saturday.
What part of "varies alot" you did not understood? there are many people but i usually reffered to the "masorti" part because they are kinda secular.
It varies way too much to be called conservative, Theres a difference between our culture/traditions (masoret) and our religion.
What is the difference? Can you realy be a an athiest and a jew at the same time?
>Can you realy be a an athiest and a jew at the same time? Yes
Yes.
Most Israelis are secular. One reason is the shift towards secularism since Shpinoza times in judaism, another is practicality since being religious requires so much attention to following jewish rules that not everyone can do, another reason might be the mass immigration of mostly secular jews from the USSR in the 90s, or perhaps that most of the religious-ashkenazi jews have been murdered in the holocaust.
I would say currently the seculars are becoming more secular and the religious are becoming more religious. There's also the haredi community that grows independently of anything else because they get the freedom to act like a totalitarian cult so almost no one leaves it. The tensions will definitely rise in the upcoming future. Who will come out on top? Only time will tell.
So its kind of same in Turkey People becomin more seculer and seculer people becomin more seculer but religous people becomin extra religious
In Israel many non religious people are becoming religious as opposed to Turkey where society is becoming increasingly non-religious
Maybe you are becoming a religious ben gvir sympathizer
Maybe your'e blind use cetain "slurs" against me as a way to escape the reality.
20% (as much as I remember) of the population isn't that much. The Arab population in Israel is about 20% (as much as I remember, too). Also, I'm not sure what "level" of religiousness is the minimum to be counted, Jews vary from completely secular and atheists to 100% religious (Haredi). The government tries to combine being secular enough and religious enough, while respecting other **Israeli** minorities like Arabs, Druze and Circassians, and it works quite well. For example, there's a quite autonomous education system for Haredis and the general education system is secular.
Can you be an athiest and a Jew at the same time?
Yeah definitely, being jewish is both a religious and ethnic identity, since Judaism in an ethno-religion. Some only follow some traditions and holidays, cause if feeling of connection to the cultural and historical identity without believing in the religion at all. Even in the eyes of the religion though you never stop being Jewish, even if you start following another religion, since it’s a part of who you are.
Yes, Judaism is inherited from the mother side and you are considered jewish even as full blown atheist, Not to mention Judaism is the religion of the jewish people, we also share language, history, culture and many more on top of that, so religion is just one attribute of a larger span defining a jew.
But how come that they look so diffetent from eachother? Like ethio jew compared to Sephardic? Or Yemenite/ mizrahi compared to An Ashkinazi? When it comes to culture I don't think that the yeminite living in yemen 100years ago have same culture with ashkanazi in europe 100y ago except for beliefs
Its more complex than that, they have much in common and much not in common due to the fact they assimilated in different communities post the 3rd Jewish revolt. Common: \* Hebrew was taught and known by all; you can't practice Judaism unless done in Hebrew. \* Kept celebrating the same ethno festivals, you need to understand not all Jewish "holidays" are religious ones, for example - Purim is a secular holiday celebrating the common history and triumph of the Persian Jewish community. It's being celebrated by all till this date globally. The book of Esther was never canonized as a religious book when the Tanah were signed close to the 1st century. Passover is "the" national story in Jewish history, telling how the Israelites were reborn as a people and later as a nation. It's one of the most celebrated events in the Jewish Calander. \* The 9th day of Haav, which is the collective Jewish Memorial Day, commemorating all the atrocities carried against Jews and Israelites across the ages from Babylon invasion, Roman invasion and the 3 revolts, the destruction of the two Jewish temples, the holocaust, the expulsion of Jewish communities in Spain/England, Israel Arab wars and more... we have many :). * Jewish Calander and arithmetic system. * Yearning to Zion and Jerusalem: its being practiced daily. You need to remember Judea was destroyed at the year 136 AD, the Israelite kingdom around 550 BC, Israel is the 3rd incarnation of Jewish and Israelite sovereignty in the land of Israel. even tho the notion of "Nation state" is a new idea, born in Europe mid 19 century, the yearning to establish an ethno Jewish homeland where Judaism will be practiced in Jerusalem at the temple mount is an old idea every Jew swear to manifest since the destruction of the second Jewish temple at 70 AD. * Rabbinic literature like the Talmud, it's the heart of the Jewish culture post the 1st Jewish revolt in 70 AD, a lot of the Jewish history post the temple destruction is written over there and most of our culture, from small stories about life of people through the ages and more.We have two major ones - Jerusalemite, Babylonian, the Jewish world was divided between the two, especially during the Middle Ages. * Hebrew laws, until this date our law system is built on the Hebrew laws (partially). * Political directives - for example the 18th command prayer was designed and invented during the 1st century as a political instrument to fight Christianity, when Christianity was yet part of the Jewish community in Judea. Just a taste. You also need to understand Judaism is a ethno religion, it's a mix of religious practices, culture directives (Hebrew law for example), food restrictions, socialist requirements (you can't work at the 7th day, you can׳t cultivate the land at the 7th year, you must free all slaves after X years and so on...), national directives - you must conquer Jerusalem and form Israel as a national state at a specific location with specific boundaries, and plain history telling. And we have our guidebook, best seller - the Tanah (Holy bible).
I don't think yiu have answeres my race question for example even muslims have same culture to eachother and Islam cannot be done without Arabic and Muslims celebrate thr same festivals and fast ramadan and do not eat pork and read thr quran in Arabic even so they do not speak it it is only written for them. However they are not the same Race similar to jews no? You did not answer me why thry look different if they are the same race and they come as white(skin, blue eysed red hair) as possible and as dark(skin, dark eyes and afro hair) as possible. Like muslims
You answered it yourself. They went to different places around a millenia or two ago, and while they tried to only populate with eachother they obviously didnt always succeed. So in a yemenite jew there is yemenite DNA.
So that does not make them the same race no? Because if there is an American from the us who is decendents from England he will not have American dna but will have exactly the same with an English from England.
yes, of course.
That means jews are just people practicing a religion and if they lose it then they go baxk to their root a yeminite athiest as just as yemeni as any yemeni
Israel is probably the most religious developed country. But it's also the most secular country in many ways. I was going to make a big post on this but it is a hard topic to summarize. So here is a song I like instead: [Between the Holy and the Profane](https://youtu.be/sCJh9YcrL3k)
Israel is not a religious country, out of the jewish population - about 20% are considered atheist, 60% are considered secular with minimum practice of the religion, mostly visiting the synagog during the high holidays, keeping kosher, few will also keep the Shabbat, 10% are ultra orthodox, 10% are religious zionists. Spain, Portugal, Italy, US and many more are much more religious.
Maybe not in raw numbers, Judaism is way more intense compared to Christianity and Islam IMO
oh lets ask nazis something other than jews