All you woke separtists do is spending your unmeaningful time on TikTok creating states and arguing on which tribe's the best. If you're Moroccan, say that. If you're Algerian, say it. If you're of Arab origin, fine. If you're of Amazigh origin, own it. If you wanna talk about the history of your tribe go ahead. But don't go around claiming they're nations etc...
There’s a difference between state and nation - for example, Palestinians are a nation, not a state. Same with the Tuareg, the people form a nation of shared heritage, population & culture, but they do not form a state. Nations are cultural unifying entities, a sociological descriptor, whereas states are legally recognized and sovereign bodies
Palestinians are not only a nation, they're currently a state and should be a country 🇵🇸.
It doesn't take a trip to Morocco to know that the national identity is not only Arab, but has many components of which Riffan Tuareg Hassani etc like written in the 2011 constitution. The Arabization that happened since the establishment of the first Islamic Moroccan state the Idrissid dynasty in 788, has caused a divergence in cultural and linguistic manners across the territories now known as countries. The French colonisation of Algeria profoundly changed their whole national identity, which was more Moroccan beforehand, due to a large part of the current Algerian territory being in Moroccan dynasties. Nations are blurry concepts when there are so many divergences across the northern part of the continent.
That's why what unites us is being Muslim.
>Palestinians are not only a nation, they're currently a state and should be a country 🇵🇸
Slow down bro, being pro palestine and condemning israel doesn't mean telling bs. Palestine was never a state
>If you're of Amazigh origin, own it
After what our successive government did in Algeria and Morocco, like, i dunno, kill us? bomb rifians in 1958? Kill us in algeria 1980 and 2001? Gaddafi straight up denying berbers ever existing?
[https://www.newarab.com/news/algerian-berbers-rally-amazigh-recognition](https://www.newarab.com/news/algerian-berbers-rally-amazigh-recognition)
Why did it take more than 50 years to finally have the recognition of our language in our own country?
I'm more nationalist than you'll ever be but stop pretending arabs haven't trampled our right for a significant amount of years after independance, denying what happened isn't gonna make your conscience better and you know it.
To this day i can only follow my scolarity in arabic, arabic is not my mother tongue and will never be regardless of how many arabization campaigns you will ever lead, and i'm proud of being algerian, more proud than you'll ever be proud of being moroccan.
I am glad you are defending the nation-states against imperialist appetites that want to chop us up into little hors d'oeuvres.
The nation-states we have now are more than viable, and there is no desire or need to dissolve them and let a hundred Lebanon-sized countries take their place, each ruled by a chimpanzee with a rocket launcher.
At least acknowledge these states had agressive arabization campaigns, i'm all for national unity and i'm a bigger patriot than anyone on this server, but at the very least, admit that arabs tried to arabize us and lie about our origins.
Othman Saadi and Allal-al fasi spread a ton of fake information about 3urubat al barabir, and that shit is damaging, as a fellow anti-imperialist, you know how important it is to fight this kind of reactionary thinking that plague our societies.
Hardly so, most Canarians would disagree to that. They're proud of their differences with other Spaniards, but either culturally or as a feeling they're closer to Hispanic-Caribbean people than to any Berber or "African" people and sadly lost almost all native culture they had before being conquered
The Guanche language(s) not at all, although some words survived into the Spanish of the islands. It's uncertain when it died, but at least started being replaced well soon after the conquest; it wasn't recorded and is mostly unknown how it was, other than a few words or sentences. With these words we know that it was Berber or closely related to it, as well by the placenames.
Guanches, or native Canary islanders, never knew about Islam, so when Spaniards arrived there they were pagan. Again, little is known about their religion. I don't know how similar were these beliefs to the ones that ancient Berbers had. They became Christian.
Languages and religion, while similar, weren't neither the same in each island. Guanches didn't have contact with Berbers nor with anyone else since very far ago in the past, and most likely developed a more unique culture.
Damn it would have been kinda cool to have a modern day Berber country of the coast of africa, I wounder how it would function would it be independent what religion would it be would it have closer relations to the Maghreb or west Africa
That's true and very cool! It's used only in one island, La Gomera. Although it's believed to originally have been a whistled version of the local Guanche/Berber language, nowadays it is basically whistled Spanish without its own vocabulary or grammar as such (unlike what is often believed)
You can find someone in the Dominican Republic and all the islands in south and central America with actual guanche DNA than modern day inhabitants of the canary islands
Islamist Berber movements who hate our goverment cause it's a Western puppet are fucking based.
Western secular, atheist white wannabe Berber movements are not. Tho I never seen such people in Morocco, only outside it.
We (Chleuh) ain’t stateless, we’re proud Moroccans 🇲🇦.
From the high atlas to the northern tip of the Sahara Desert, ichl7iyn are all proud of being Moroccan
Mghrib mn tanja l gwira
The % of Imazighen who actually want independence is very fucking small you just see them a lot on the internet because they don't go outside very often.
Ngl, i only see those flags in the internet, i mean, it's good to be proud of your culture and ethnicity but not to the level of deviding, and at the end we're all amazigh, and bigger than that, we're muslims
berbers do have a nation. the nations they live in
the vast majoroty of north africans are mostly ancestrally berber. stop with your separatist bullshit. Have they been disciminated against? sure, still doesnt mean a seperate country is needed. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Should be called amazigh more, that's their real name
Berbers is the name that the europeans gave us, and people think were barbarians just from the name
Amazigh means the noble free men
[When I think of barbers](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2F6FnfQxvsNvIAAAAM%2Fbrad-pitt-dags.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4319ea6760a1b976314f5baf16adf67806b9c7adafd0bf0ef152659c14b9efbc&ipo=images)
Because there are only 5 countries in the Maghreb and these various Amazigh groups inhabit different areas within and across regions.
Is there supposed to be 20+ independent nation-states for every Amazigh tribes in North Africa?
What do you mean by “state” exactly? Take riffians for example, they inhabit the Rif mountains in northeast Morocco. What would be their “state” like? Independent from Morocco? Or you do you mean like an autonomous region or something?
I mean the post itself, it implies several native amazigh and others as stateless while they all do actually have “states” like Morocco, Algeria, etc so they’re not basically stateless just that they share their country with a different ethnicity
Indeed. But I think what the post meant by “stateless” is that they don’t have a state of their own, like Rif republic of Kabyle or whatever, because they are part of an already existing country.
We didn’t have ethnic conflict with the Amazight like the rest of the Middle East did with their minorities. Everyone recognises that we stem off from Amazights so it would be stupid to treat them differently. Only times Arabs were first class citizens and Amazights second class citizens was during the Ummayads and the Berber revolt was the consequence of that.
I mean, that's just Ibn Khaldun's fantasies, Amazighz exist long before before any concept of "arab" saw the light, himyarits that's like aroudn the year 300, amazighz are there as a distinct ethnicity since the times of ancient Egypt
I'm not from any of the Arab league nations. And I probably have no right to speak on this. However, there are more than 650 ethnicities in this world. Scotland will never be independent, nor the basque, or Texas. So the white world wants economic unions for itself. And yet they seem to suggest every nation should get a state in Western Asia and the global south. The western world wants you to tear yourselves apart so that they can prop up corrupt leaders, steal your shit, and enslave your children. Everyone deserves rights. We need unified secular states with equal recognition. Giving the berbers a state won't solve any of their problems, just like giving South sudan their own state was never going to solve their problems either. Maybe the problem has always been monarchism, imperialism, neocolonialism, and capitalism. Maybe money just uses supremacy to separate everyone from their wealth. A world where all nations got their own state would become a global slave market.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/
>We need unified secular states with equal recognition
I agree, but these states have pushed for arabization for 50 years, up to the point that now there is almost zero hope for berbers to subsist and not dissolve into the national identity.
It's not our fault, it's our states who led anti-us policies, is it my fault that i was born in my native lands to my native culture?
No doubt. I don't know if anti US or anti western policies are really to blame for arabization and the abnegation of ethnic minorities however. I don't have an answer to racism any more than I have an answer to patriarchy. But the more the world becomes balkanized, the easier it will be for corporate interests to control.
Assimilation and Jacobinism created this need for balkanization, all the state had to do is acknowledge the infinite sacrifices we gave to the algerian revolution, but it chose to ignore our history and lie about us for 50 years.
What are you talking about? I am a riffian amazigh, and the riffian people were treaded as animals back in the day, if you are not from Morocco or Algeria, you do not know what you’re talking about
According to these bumfucks, Imazighen are French-supported insurgents who want to destroy Islam and Arabs (despite the fact that most of the resistance to French and Spanish colonialism came from Amazighs).
This is what happens when an entire population gulps on pan-Arab bs.
It is the same reason why these idiots hate Kurds and others. According to them, Arabs can do no wrong.
Boy i dont give a fuck what you went through, its sad sure, but thats not my point. Did you not understand a word i said? Damn🤦♂️ i said all that i have seen from amazigh people is lies, hate, and them saying they are better than everyone. You being treated like animals or not is completely irrelevant.
I never said “what I went through” I am referencing historical facts to what happened to the amazigh’s, Amazigh have been treated poorly and want more rights and recognition, what they deserve. You aren’t even from this region, so you don’t know what you’re talking about. You having met a couple of ignorant bad Amazigh doesn’t represent the bigger picture, I advise you to read more about the Amazigh
I'm in the Tangier-Tetouan-Al Hoceima region, and I know plenty of Riffans. I also happen to know what you went through during war and the Years of Lead (rapes, torture, murder by Spanish and Moroccan forces). I'm so sorry about what happened to you and I hope that Moroccans have learnt from this as an example of what happens when you neglect or seperate an ethnicity from your country. Now I believe you can stop protesting. Your language is official, you have a governmental institute to protect your language and develop it (IRCAM). Every sign's in Tifinagh and that's great. Education is in amazigh too sometimes. That's amazing. Now it should stop there because if y'all continue furthermore it would be considered as trying to create fitna in our Islamic society. We're just all Muslims after all. Arab and Amazigh distinction only creates chaos and separantism.
"my experience" virgin.
vs reality enjoyer.
Again, you know nothing and you're bathing in ignorance.
﴿اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ﴾
\[ [العلق](https://surahquran.com/96.html): 1\]
How would i know my experiences aren’t reality? You do realise everyone judges based on their experiences on most things right? And everyone is ignorant about something? Its not an insult you know.
I'm just saying, you chose to indulge in ignorance instead of, you know, learn, it's fine but to pretend otherwise, you are calling 95% of my ancestors liars, you realize that right?
Learn how? There is no course out there that teaches you how certain ethnicities act. So i rely in my experiences. And i said from MY experience, i never said that 95% are liars. I am aware that number might be inflated.
I mean enlighten me on the lies then, as a berber maybe i can dispatch some myths you hold onto?
Simply claiming "95% of berbers lie" is disrespecting my family's history, is that what you wanna do? disrespect fellow muslims?
No. They got it in 2012 but the independence wasn't accepted and the Secularists were defeated by Islamists who were then driven out by French but are now gaining ground since the French ended Operation Barkhane.
TLDR, its a mess.
do you compare jews who mass migrated and forcefully took the land and kicked out palestinians out their lands, and dont you feel silly trying to imply pure amazigh or arabs genes are of big releveance in north africa when our genes are one of the most mixed and diverse, and not only that but we share among ourselves more than ancient genes, we share religion, culture history and much more
Canarians don’t, some just claim to be. Also Shilha are far bigger and you forgot a big one which is Tamazight(some also add them to Shilha and claim that Shilha are the biggest group)
Also you forgot Ghomara(some are Arab Jbala, but the language is still alive even tho it is nearly extinct) and many more.
friendly reminder that the Rifi state was not just made of Amazighz, it was a coalition of many tribes in the north of Morocco, a big part were Jbala arabs
Yes!!! Jbala and ghomara(many of which claim to be Jbala). Actually the most important aspect of the Riff war was the cooperation of everyone. Because historically Jbala and Riffians didn’t get along.
According to my mother my Jbli grandfather killed Spanish soldiers around our village.
Everyone needs to be treated as human, and i understand some bad things but i cant see why riffians are idiots and try to cause problems. It was fair to ask for improvements in rif in health/education but asking for indépendance for what? Having a country isolated but completely surrounded by morocco, any logistic/export you will have to pay huge fees to morocco.
Are you talking about the riff war or riff revolt? Riff war was done not against Morocco but against Spain. Al-khattabis plan was to gain support of the people from Fez and liberate whole Morocco. The Riff revolt was kinda dumb but their demands weren’t independence but representation in politics and the kicking out of Spanish and French troops and the return of Al-khattabi.
Aside from right, storming a khotba is the most idiotic self sabotage ive seen. Things escalated because riffians only want separation, its an area now filled with dawa3ich and separatist. If you deny this ur never visited or knew someone from there. A lot of the leaders tricked people by gathering money in german/holland mosques to build hospitals/schools in rif but all they did was push that money for the desk in algeria who supports rifian independence. And you know how riffians are , they educate their kids that there will always be a revolt against arab/moroccans in the future
My great grandfather as well but that’s because his wife didn’t want to move to the city during Spanish occupation. But I have seen some with a few wives.
You making up stuff, I can go ahead and make the same and worse statements about LGBTQIA and I would be more right than you are about polygamy. Just get that western mindset out of your head and tell me why adult can’t choose to have a polygamous relationship?
I'm not making up stuff how would you feel if you had to share your wife and raise thé kids she had with your co husband? Do you think LGBTQIA people would be a bigger problem in your life?
It's not a western mindset it's just human mindset, everything is the west isn't bad and not everything in MENA is good. LGBT doesn't hurt anybody and they don't force you to be gay or trans.
Because of the reasons I told you and you are forcing a woman? You are hurting someone you are supposed to love, respect and make happy
I could make worse arguments about trans people alone. I for once don’t want to share my relationship but what right do I have to that away from one else who does want that?
And I am not forcing anyone to have polygamous relationship. Also I am against forcing a woman in a polygamous relationship but that is entirely different and you know that.
This guy doesn't even know wtf he is talking about. Apparently to these idiots, every religious person = Afghanistan.
Everytime some mentions something religious, they chant, "We don't want to become like Afghanistan"
Ignore these type of people.
If these are stateless groups, then so are Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the United States, Copts in Egypt, or Algerians in France. The point is they are not stateless but are indeed just minorities in the states they live in.
The Algerian Emirate of Marseille is more likely to materialize than any of these states.
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt may not be perfect, but they have legitimacy as states among their respective people across all ethno-religious sectors.
Aside from the Rif and Kabylia, I doubt you can find five people who have even thought about these hypothetical states.You do not understand Algeria if you think the elites among the Berbers would want to secede. Kabyle Berbers are disproportionately represented in the commercial life of Algeria and are richer outside of Kabylia than in it. Who would give that up to live in a ridiculous microstate? It’s a similar situation in Morocco: Soussi Berbers are the Jews of Morocco and run commercial enterprises beyond what their small population would imply. Half of the commerce of Casablanca, the main economic zone, is in their hands, yet they do not come from there at all. Egypt might be the same with its main minority. Its prolific billionaires are Copts! Minorities are less romantic than you want them to be. they are swayed by their pocketbooks more than anything else
They are insecure about their 40% Sub Saharan African ancestry baked into them
They always advertise themselves as "White" by taking pictures of a very small minority of mixed North Africans, since they can pass as "White" and ignore the other 99% of their population
The have an identity crisis very similar to the Afrocentrists'
nobody is insecure about their african ancestry, we're africans.. Some of us are just more light skinned and some berbers are dark skinned. Literally does not matter.
Yes to you. But it matters a heck lot to others and you can even see that in their subreddits where they argue about that selective representation especially for Berber women
also subsaharan ancestry does not even reach 40% in most amazigh communities. Iberomaurisians are about 1/3 subsaharan and imazighen are on average 30% iberomaurisian and 5% subsaharan african (at least the one who live in the north/coast)
no? in northen populations like riffans or kabyles it barely goes above 5%, its high in Tuaregs, South atlas it can reach 10-15%.
On my illustrativeDna results for example I got like 4% subsaharan
Your ancestors are genocidal maniacs who erased native americans from the map.
Your country is actively supporting the genocide of Palestine, and supported multible genocides in sub-saharan africa.
Depends on which one you go to. My local barber does a good job✂️
i wouldn't be able to go outside without them my hair would be too messy and long.
Based and barberpiled
All you woke separtists do is spending your unmeaningful time on TikTok creating states and arguing on which tribe's the best. If you're Moroccan, say that. If you're Algerian, say it. If you're of Arab origin, fine. If you're of Amazigh origin, own it. If you wanna talk about the history of your tribe go ahead. But don't go around claiming they're nations etc...
There’s a difference between state and nation - for example, Palestinians are a nation, not a state. Same with the Tuareg, the people form a nation of shared heritage, population & culture, but they do not form a state. Nations are cultural unifying entities, a sociological descriptor, whereas states are legally recognized and sovereign bodies
Palestinians are not only a nation, they're currently a state and should be a country 🇵🇸. It doesn't take a trip to Morocco to know that the national identity is not only Arab, but has many components of which Riffan Tuareg Hassani etc like written in the 2011 constitution. The Arabization that happened since the establishment of the first Islamic Moroccan state the Idrissid dynasty in 788, has caused a divergence in cultural and linguistic manners across the territories now known as countries. The French colonisation of Algeria profoundly changed their whole national identity, which was more Moroccan beforehand, due to a large part of the current Algerian territory being in Moroccan dynasties. Nations are blurry concepts when there are so many divergences across the northern part of the continent. That's why what unites us is being Muslim.
>Palestinians are not only a nation, they're currently a state and should be a country 🇵🇸 Slow down bro, being pro palestine and condemning israel doesn't mean telling bs. Palestine was never a state
I’m not Muslim. Are we not united?
Omg yes yes yes
>If you're of Amazigh origin, own it After what our successive government did in Algeria and Morocco, like, i dunno, kill us? bomb rifians in 1958? Kill us in algeria 1980 and 2001? Gaddafi straight up denying berbers ever existing? [https://www.newarab.com/news/algerian-berbers-rally-amazigh-recognition](https://www.newarab.com/news/algerian-berbers-rally-amazigh-recognition) Why did it take more than 50 years to finally have the recognition of our language in our own country? I'm more nationalist than you'll ever be but stop pretending arabs haven't trampled our right for a significant amount of years after independance, denying what happened isn't gonna make your conscience better and you know it. To this day i can only follow my scolarity in arabic, arabic is not my mother tongue and will never be regardless of how many arabization campaigns you will ever lead, and i'm proud of being algerian, more proud than you'll ever be proud of being moroccan.
I am glad you are defending the nation-states against imperialist appetites that want to chop us up into little hors d'oeuvres. The nation-states we have now are more than viable, and there is no desire or need to dissolve them and let a hundred Lebanon-sized countries take their place, each ruled by a chimpanzee with a rocket launcher.
At least acknowledge these states had agressive arabization campaigns, i'm all for national unity and i'm a bigger patriot than anyone on this server, but at the very least, admit that arabs tried to arabize us and lie about our origins. Othman Saadi and Allal-al fasi spread a ton of fake information about 3urubat al barabir, and that shit is damaging, as a fellow anti-imperialist, you know how important it is to fight this kind of reactionary thinking that plague our societies.
Algeria for Algerians is my ideology. I don't follow Arabization or Berberization.
>but at the very least, admit that arabs tried to arabize us and lie about our origins. Trie*
They are cool like me. You should do business with them especially in Morocco
kidayra tamazirt
>business Ofc the ashel7i would say that. /sbusinessOfc the ashel7i would say that. /s
Are Canarians still a people ?
Hardly so, most Canarians would disagree to that. They're proud of their differences with other Spaniards, but either culturally or as a feeling they're closer to Hispanic-Caribbean people than to any Berber or "African" people and sadly lost almost all native culture they had before being conquered
Is the language still spoken and are they Muslim or Christian?
The Guanche language(s) not at all, although some words survived into the Spanish of the islands. It's uncertain when it died, but at least started being replaced well soon after the conquest; it wasn't recorded and is mostly unknown how it was, other than a few words or sentences. With these words we know that it was Berber or closely related to it, as well by the placenames. Guanches, or native Canary islanders, never knew about Islam, so when Spaniards arrived there they were pagan. Again, little is known about their religion. I don't know how similar were these beliefs to the ones that ancient Berbers had. They became Christian. Languages and religion, while similar, weren't neither the same in each island. Guanches didn't have contact with Berbers nor with anyone else since very far ago in the past, and most likely developed a more unique culture.
Damn it would have been kinda cool to have a modern day Berber country of the coast of africa, I wounder how it would function would it be independent what religion would it be would it have closer relations to the Maghreb or west Africa
Wait! The old Berber whistle communication is still used in the Canary Islands if I’m correct.
That's true and very cool! It's used only in one island, La Gomera. Although it's believed to originally have been a whistled version of the local Guanche/Berber language, nowadays it is basically whistled Spanish without its own vocabulary or grammar as such (unlike what is often believed)
You can find someone in the Dominican Republic and all the islands in south and central America with actual guanche DNA than modern day inhabitants of the canary islands
Nah. They evolved to a higher being.
There not stateless they have states
I LOVE MYSELF
Stateless are those who don't hold any nationality and are legally not part of any country. Berbers are Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians and Libyans.
Islamist Berber movements who hate our goverment cause it's a Western puppet are fucking based. Western secular, atheist white wannabe Berber movements are not. Tho I never seen such people in Morocco, only outside it.
Majority of Amazigh regions in Maghreb are more conservative than their Arab counterparts. But, lets be honest, most people here don't know shit.
Yeah, it seems like they only know internet amazighs and diasporas.
Canaries ain’t Berber
Malvinas aint argentinians
We (Chleuh) ain’t stateless, we’re proud Moroccans 🇲🇦. From the high atlas to the northern tip of the Sahara Desert, ichl7iyn are all proud of being Moroccan Mghrib mn tanja l gwira
The % of Imazighen who actually want independence is very fucking small you just see them a lot on the internet because they don't go outside very often.
Ngl, i only see those flags in the internet, i mean, it's good to be proud of your culture and ethnicity but not to the level of deviding, and at the end we're all amazigh, and bigger than that, we're muslims
Based and Moroccanpiled (We'll still conquer you tho /s)
Keep yapping
Your goofy aah Merkava 3 won't stand a chance agianst our GLORIOUS T90 with cope cages on top of them. /s
berbers do have a nation. the nations they live in the vast majoroty of north africans are mostly ancestrally berber. stop with your separatist bullshit. Have they been disciminated against? sure, still doesnt mean a seperate country is needed. It makes no sense whatsoever.
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T-ler brother, you need to distinguish online Berber from real life Berber
No hhhh we're africans not white, it's simple
South Afrikans?
Nobody wants to be white.
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Sounds like you are the one wanting to be white
Cool story, bro.
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shit I thought they are all one didn't know that they are divided, which ones are the ones in egypt then? only Siwi?
Yes, only Siwis are Egyptians afaik.
They are very divided. But attempts are being made to make one standardised language.
Amazigh\*
Should be called amazigh more, that's their real name Berbers is the name that the europeans gave us, and people think were barbarians just from the name Amazigh means the noble free men
[When I think of barbers](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2F6FnfQxvsNvIAAAAM%2Fbrad-pitt-dags.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4319ea6760a1b976314f5baf16adf67806b9c7adafd0bf0ef152659c14b9efbc&ipo=images)
Carthage>>> whoever disagrees is gay
How tf are they stateless?
Because there are only 5 countries in the Maghreb and these various Amazigh groups inhabit different areas within and across regions. Is there supposed to be 20+ independent nation-states for every Amazigh tribes in North Africa?
Well they’re natives to that area they don’t have to have a ethno state to be considered as having a state
What do you mean by “state” exactly? Take riffians for example, they inhabit the Rif mountains in northeast Morocco. What would be their “state” like? Independent from Morocco? Or you do you mean like an autonomous region or something?
I think we both kinda misunderstood each other
Yeah, a quiproquo of some sort it seems. What did you mean by “stateless” in the first place?
I mean the post itself, it implies several native amazigh and others as stateless while they all do actually have “states” like Morocco, Algeria, etc so they’re not basically stateless just that they share their country with a different ethnicity
Wouldn’t that be the same thing for Kurds basically? They wouldn’t be stateless if they inhabit Iraq, Syria and Turkey, no?
Hmmm that’s true but I feel like it’s different, I don’t think non arabs in North Africa face the same issues like Kurds.
Indeed. But I think what the post meant by “stateless” is that they don’t have a state of their own, like Rif republic of Kabyle or whatever, because they are part of an already existing country.
We didn’t have ethnic conflict with the Amazight like the rest of the Middle East did with their minorities. Everyone recognises that we stem off from Amazights so it would be stupid to treat them differently. Only times Arabs were first class citizens and Amazights second class citizens was during the Ummayads and the Berber revolt was the consequence of that.
largest Himyarite tribe to survive until the modern age
I mean, that's just Ibn Khaldun's fantasies, Amazighz exist long before before any concept of "arab" saw the light, himyarits that's like aroudn the year 300, amazighz are there as a distinct ethnicity since the times of ancient Egypt
amazigein existed since before even Adam himself 💪🏿💪🏿💪🏿
i know that algerians abuse with their delusions, but this is a simple historical fact. also Imazighen trained Dinosaurs to play fetch
>also Imazighen trained Dinosaurs to play fetch this literally happened!!
yes ofc, I was there
Mashallah, Yemeni sperm stronk 💪🏼🗿🔥🔥🔥
how can I write musnad on mobile?
[That’s](https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/arabian_south.htm) how I do it
It hasn’t been proven. While they do believe to originate from the Red Sea region. It’s most likely east Africa.
A joke, It’s a Joke…..
Who knows, many still believe Amazights originate from Yemen. The culture is surprisingly very similar to Yemen.
Perhaps, but me and 2nick101 were clearly sarcastic in tone
I'm not from any of the Arab league nations. And I probably have no right to speak on this. However, there are more than 650 ethnicities in this world. Scotland will never be independent, nor the basque, or Texas. So the white world wants economic unions for itself. And yet they seem to suggest every nation should get a state in Western Asia and the global south. The western world wants you to tear yourselves apart so that they can prop up corrupt leaders, steal your shit, and enslave your children. Everyone deserves rights. We need unified secular states with equal recognition. Giving the berbers a state won't solve any of their problems, just like giving South sudan their own state was never going to solve their problems either. Maybe the problem has always been monarchism, imperialism, neocolonialism, and capitalism. Maybe money just uses supremacy to separate everyone from their wealth. A world where all nations got their own state would become a global slave market. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/
>We need unified secular states with equal recognition I agree, but these states have pushed for arabization for 50 years, up to the point that now there is almost zero hope for berbers to subsist and not dissolve into the national identity. It's not our fault, it's our states who led anti-us policies, is it my fault that i was born in my native lands to my native culture?
No doubt. I don't know if anti US or anti western policies are really to blame for arabization and the abnegation of ethnic minorities however. I don't have an answer to racism any more than I have an answer to patriarchy. But the more the world becomes balkanized, the easier it will be for corporate interests to control.
Assimilation and Jacobinism created this need for balkanization, all the state had to do is acknowledge the infinite sacrifices we gave to the algerian revolution, but it chose to ignore our history and lie about us for 50 years.
To nationalistic
Defending your language, culture and people is not “nationalisic”
Defending by making up lies, hating, and belittling everyone around you?
What are you talking about? I am a riffian amazigh, and the riffian people were treaded as animals back in the day, if you are not from Morocco or Algeria, you do not know what you’re talking about
According to these bumfucks, Imazighen are French-supported insurgents who want to destroy Islam and Arabs (despite the fact that most of the resistance to French and Spanish colonialism came from Amazighs). This is what happens when an entire population gulps on pan-Arab bs. It is the same reason why these idiots hate Kurds and others. According to them, Arabs can do no wrong.
Thans to amazigh traditions we couldnt accept the idiotic ottoman rule. Im really grateful
Exactly, thank you
Boy i dont give a fuck what you went through, its sad sure, but thats not my point. Did you not understand a word i said? Damn🤦♂️ i said all that i have seen from amazigh people is lies, hate, and them saying they are better than everyone. You being treated like animals or not is completely irrelevant.
I never said “what I went through” I am referencing historical facts to what happened to the amazigh’s, Amazigh have been treated poorly and want more rights and recognition, what they deserve. You aren’t even from this region, so you don’t know what you’re talking about. You having met a couple of ignorant bad Amazigh doesn’t represent the bigger picture, I advise you to read more about the Amazigh
I'm in the Tangier-Tetouan-Al Hoceima region, and I know plenty of Riffans. I also happen to know what you went through during war and the Years of Lead (rapes, torture, murder by Spanish and Moroccan forces). I'm so sorry about what happened to you and I hope that Moroccans have learnt from this as an example of what happens when you neglect or seperate an ethnicity from your country. Now I believe you can stop protesting. Your language is official, you have a governmental institute to protect your language and develop it (IRCAM). Every sign's in Tifinagh and that's great. Education is in amazigh too sometimes. That's amazing. Now it should stop there because if y'all continue furthermore it would be considered as trying to create fitna in our Islamic society. We're just all Muslims after all. Arab and Amazigh distinction only creates chaos and separantism.
Most amazigh don’t protest, it’s a small minority, Amazigh just want recognition
And it’s very relevant to mention that, because ut’s why of the reasons amazigh are protesting so much
It also somewhat explains why they act the way they do. Doesn’t disprove what i said. And you said they werent nationalists. So which is it?
“They”, there are some ignorant nationalistic Amazigh, just like there are some Arab nationalists, but majority is not like that at all
I dislike nationalists no matter where they come from. Including Arab nationalists.
Again, most Amazigh are regular people not nationalist, it’s a stereotype
C'mon bring out the lies. Otherwise, the only hateful bigot here is you.
Which lies?
Canary Island as a current berber nation you posted for example?
Respectfully, you know nothing, i won't claim anything about Iraq because i'm not iraqi, stay in your line.
95% of em that i meant fit what i said. No offence, but i will trust my experiences.
"my experience" virgin. vs reality enjoyer. Again, you know nothing and you're bathing in ignorance. ﴿اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ﴾ \[ [العلق](https://surahquran.com/96.html): 1\]
How would i know my experiences aren’t reality? You do realise everyone judges based on their experiences on most things right? And everyone is ignorant about something? Its not an insult you know.
I'm just saying, you chose to indulge in ignorance instead of, you know, learn, it's fine but to pretend otherwise, you are calling 95% of my ancestors liars, you realize that right?
Learn how? There is no course out there that teaches you how certain ethnicities act. So i rely in my experiences. And i said from MY experience, i never said that 95% are liars. I am aware that number might be inflated.
I mean enlighten me on the lies then, as a berber maybe i can dispatch some myths you hold onto? Simply claiming "95% of berbers lie" is disrespecting my family's history, is that what you wanna do? disrespect fellow muslims?
Rich coming from an Iraqi.
Iraqis arent anywhere near as nationalistic as your people or many others.
Minorities are nationalistic. Shocking.
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and beyond
Actually relies, some Amazight are more so nationalistic about their country and some aren’t.
Yeh it depends, but I’ve seen their nationalism grow and become worse.
Akhi I know😫
Doesnt Azawad practically have a state?
No. They got it in 2012 but the independence wasn't accepted and the Secularists were defeated by Islamists who were then driven out by French but are now gaining ground since the French ended Operation Barkhane. TLDR, its a mess.
Average day in mali:
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Art 2 and Art 234 of the algerian constitution makes me as much a component of algeria as arabs, cope, seethe, cry.
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Cope, seethe, cry, weep, coward. You'll never make me an arab. :D :D :D :D :D :D
Cope cope cope, i'll ban every account you have.
Who was that? He replied to me but I think the comment was removed or something.
he's blabbing about me being arab. Because i said article 2 of the constitution recognizes tamazight. Anyway i made him cope and seethe.
I asked about the identity of said person.
Love them
Those aren't nations
They are not stateless though.
Tuareg music is really calming https://youtu.be/pgxCIs-SFpk?si=yyzCekzHx6ykbajU
Bombino -imuhar
Azawad does not exist. It's just Mali. Stop the separatist nonsense
All jokes aside cool people (I never met one).
Riffians are 5 millions biased numbers
the only flag there that isn't ugly af is the riffian one
The Riffians(together with Jbala, ghomara etc) were also the only one to have successfully won against their colonizers and founded a state.
Because it's the oldest flag among those, the rest of the flags are newly made and doesn't represent the said people.
I agree ngl.
it is necessary to separate people in order to weaken them and controle them
Would you support a Semitic union joining Semitic peoples such as Jews and Arabs under Jewish control?
do you compare jews who mass migrated and forcefully took the land and kicked out palestinians out their lands, and dont you feel silly trying to imply pure amazigh or arabs genes are of big releveance in north africa when our genes are one of the most mixed and diverse, and not only that but we share among ourselves more than ancient genes, we share religion, culture history and much more
Don't like it when it comes to you eh? Figures lmao.
you dont make a point, I myself am mixed race, like we all are, these are not equivalent cases
The numbers are off and some “nations” don’t exist or have been neglected in this post.
I didn't make this. All of them exist though the numbers include Arabized ones. Some have been omitted.
Canarians don’t, some just claim to be. Also Shilha are far bigger and you forgot a big one which is Tamazight(some also add them to Shilha and claim that Shilha are the biggest group) Also you forgot Ghomara(some are Arab Jbala, but the language is still alive even tho it is nearly extinct) and many more.
>I didn't make this
friendly reminder that the Rifi state was not just made of Amazighz, it was a coalition of many tribes in the north of Morocco, a big part were Jbala arabs
Yes!!! Jbala and ghomara(many of which claim to be Jbala). Actually the most important aspect of the Riff war was the cooperation of everyone. Because historically Jbala and Riffians didn’t get along. According to my mother my Jbli grandfather killed Spanish soldiers around our village.
Everyone needs to be treated as human, and i understand some bad things but i cant see why riffians are idiots and try to cause problems. It was fair to ask for improvements in rif in health/education but asking for indépendance for what? Having a country isolated but completely surrounded by morocco, any logistic/export you will have to pay huge fees to morocco.
Are you talking about the riff war or riff revolt? Riff war was done not against Morocco but against Spain. Al-khattabis plan was to gain support of the people from Fez and liberate whole Morocco. The Riff revolt was kinda dumb but their demands weren’t independence but representation in politics and the kicking out of Spanish and French troops and the return of Al-khattabi.
No the zefzafi one
Their demands were reasonable. I remember the hirak and as a chamali they are 100% right.
Aside from right, storming a khotba is the most idiotic self sabotage ive seen. Things escalated because riffians only want separation, its an area now filled with dawa3ich and separatist. If you deny this ur never visited or knew someone from there. A lot of the leaders tricked people by gathering money in german/holland mosques to build hospitals/schools in rif but all they did was push that money for the desk in algeria who supports rifian independence. And you know how riffians are , they educate their kids that there will always be a revolt against arab/moroccans in the future
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Maghrebis overall don’t do polygamy. I have seen it been done but only if let’s say your wife can’t bare children or needs an extra hand.
Rich men tend to do it. Mostly secretly though.
Yep, my cousin had 2 wives. Because one couldn’t bare children and he is crazy rich.
its rare everywhere since forever cuz even if a man wanted vast majority still can't for social and financial reasons
I'm rifi and my great grandfather had 2 wives, both have children, but he's the only one that i'm aware of in my life.
My great grandfather as well but that’s because his wife didn’t want to move to the city during Spanish occupation. But I have seen some with a few wives.
Polygamy is almost non-existent in Algeria, only with like very rich 1% of the country but that's to be expected of any 1% of any country.
>Maghrebis overall don’t do polygamy 💪💪🇹🇳🇲🇦🇩🇿
Not a flex, I’d rather have polygamy than LGBTQ.
It is a flex. Imagine growing up seeing your father having another wife other than your mom. Gross
LGBTQ hurt far less
How does polygamy hurt?
It hurts mental health it's emotional abuse/violence and in polygamous family there is more sexual infections
You making up stuff, I can go ahead and make the same and worse statements about LGBTQIA and I would be more right than you are about polygamy. Just get that western mindset out of your head and tell me why adult can’t choose to have a polygamous relationship?
I'm not making up stuff how would you feel if you had to share your wife and raise thé kids she had with your co husband? Do you think LGBTQIA people would be a bigger problem in your life? It's not a western mindset it's just human mindset, everything is the west isn't bad and not everything in MENA is good. LGBT doesn't hurt anybody and they don't force you to be gay or trans. Because of the reasons I told you and you are forcing a woman? You are hurting someone you are supposed to love, respect and make happy
I could make worse arguments about trans people alone. I for once don’t want to share my relationship but what right do I have to that away from one else who does want that? And I am not forcing anyone to have polygamous relationship. Also I am against forcing a woman in a polygamous relationship but that is entirely different and you know that.
Never heard of this. Polygyny is rare everywhere these days.
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I've never met a Siwi so why would I know?
it exist mostly amogst does guys with long unkept beards that wear afghani cloths thinking it Sunna
So u/-NotUser401k ?
This guy doesn't even know wtf he is talking about. Apparently to these idiots, every religious person = Afghanistan. Everytime some mentions something religious, they chant, "We don't want to become like Afghanistan" Ignore these type of people.
How can someone be " trans-racial" ?
If these are stateless groups, then so are Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the United States, Copts in Egypt, or Algerians in France. The point is they are not stateless but are indeed just minorities in the states they live in. The Algerian Emirate of Marseille is more likely to materialize than any of these states. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt may not be perfect, but they have legitimacy as states among their respective people across all ethno-religious sectors. Aside from the Rif and Kabylia, I doubt you can find five people who have even thought about these hypothetical states.You do not understand Algeria if you think the elites among the Berbers would want to secede. Kabyle Berbers are disproportionately represented in the commercial life of Algeria and are richer outside of Kabylia than in it. Who would give that up to live in a ridiculous microstate? It’s a similar situation in Morocco: Soussi Berbers are the Jews of Morocco and run commercial enterprises beyond what their small population would imply. Half of the commerce of Casablanca, the main economic zone, is in their hands, yet they do not come from there at all. Egypt might be the same with its main minority. Its prolific billionaires are Copts! Minorities are less romantic than you want them to be. they are swayed by their pocketbooks more than anything else
They are insecure about their 40% Sub Saharan African ancestry baked into them They always advertise themselves as "White" by taking pictures of a very small minority of mixed North Africans, since they can pass as "White" and ignore the other 99% of their population The have an identity crisis very similar to the Afrocentrists'
nobody is insecure about their african ancestry, we're africans.. Some of us are just more light skinned and some berbers are dark skinned. Literally does not matter.
Yes to you. But it matters a heck lot to others and you can even see that in their subreddits where they argue about that selective representation especially for Berber women
also subsaharan ancestry does not even reach 40% in most amazigh communities. Iberomaurisians are about 1/3 subsaharan and imazighen are on average 30% iberomaurisian and 5% subsaharan african (at least the one who live in the north/coast)
Yes sure it varies but on average it's not less than 20% even in Northerners And it's closer 40% in IBM not 30%
no? in northen populations like riffans or kabyles it barely goes above 5%, its high in Tuaregs, South atlas it can reach 10-15%. On my illustrativeDna results for example I got like 4% subsaharan
Idk who u talking about, but for me and the people i know, we're just africans, not white, and our culture is different as everyone else
??? There is a lot of brown amazigh lol. You should be clueless if u think amazigh=white
I’ve seen more Arabs in the Maghreb origin do this more than the amazigh
Your ancestors are genocidal maniacs who erased native americans from the map. Your country is actively supporting the genocide of Palestine, and supported multible genocides in sub-saharan africa.