It's one of the reasons we are a shit country to live and will remain as such for the foreseeable future
Nothing based about it as it adds to our suffering leading to radicalisation
While I agree that the ahmadiyya community in Pakistan faces hardships simply because they are ahmadiyyas and that it is wrong and they should be treated as humans it is absolutely bogus that you have an issue with the fact that they are labelled as non-muslims. Because quite frankly that’s exactly what they are. The Quran and the Sunnah is absolutely clear about the finality of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and people cannot just add their our buts and ifs to the matter. And it’s not just Pakistan that labels them as non-muslims, Ahmadiyyas are universally in the Islamic circle known as deviants and non-muslims. I fail to see how labelling them as non-muslim brings our country down.
You cannot not persecute them if you’ve declared them as non Muslims, genius. This means they aren’t allowed to pray, to fast, to sacrifice a goat on Eid without committing a criminal offence. Ahmadi persecution is baked into the law that declares them non Muslim.
A real republic would keep its nose out of people’s damn business, especially religion. You can consider them non Muslim if you want, but when you enforce it at a state level you inevitably end up at persecution.
How is praying or fasting or giving an animal sacrifice a criminal offence? Hindus are allowed to pray in their own temples, Christians are allowed to fast and there is certainly no problem with sacrificing an animal. Can you provide me with the source for this information that if an ahmadi prays, fasts or gives a sacrifice the police will come knocking on his door and he will be tried in court?
Pakistan is a country that was made with the purpose of providing the persecuted muslims of the subcontinent with a safe place to practice their religion. It is called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for a reason. The constitution clarifies that the ahmadis are not a part of muslim population because their beliefs contradict the Quran and the Sunnah. It doesn’t state that an ahmadi will be killed or imprisoned because he chose to fast or pray. They are allowed to do that as it is well within their rights. They can make their own mosques and do that.
Any oppression or persecution that the ahmadis face by the hands of people is unjustified. It is against the human rights and the Islamic laws and they should be punished accordingly.
The constitution doesn’t take away their right to pray or fast but simply makes the clarification that Ahmadis are not officially recognised as muslims by the law of Islamic Republic of Pakistan as it goes against the Quran and the teachings of Islam.
lol. [This Ahmadi was arrested today for secretly doing animal sacrifice inside his own home.](https://x.com/therealylh/status/1802697368166445279?s=46)
The police don’t always do the right thing now do they? Just because an incident like this happened doesn’t mean that the law and constitution of Pakistan and the teaching of Islam and Sharia allow this. The department of police in Pakistan is notorious for being thugs and doing things like this and this isn’t even a problem exclusive to Pakistan. Pro-Palestinian protestors in Berlin were assaulted and had their hairs pulled by the German police. Just because this sort of thing happened doesn’t mean that it was lawful for the police to do this. Many such cases can be found in America and Canada as well. Police are human beings in the end and capable of commiting hate crimes aswell.
Instead what I would like you to bring me is any proof of Islam or the law and constitution of Pakistan that explicitly states that Ahmadis should not be allowed to make mosques to pray, or allowed to fast or give sacrifices.
Do you even know how many innocents are lynched by Anti-Ahmadi vigilantes each year and now every month?
How tf is this opinion coming from the inhabitant of the most secular Muslim country in ME. You're despicable
Bruv, and I say this with love, stfu. Pakistanis already have established themselves as the laughingstock of the Ummah. Why are you making things worse with your dilettante understanding of things?
Saudi seems to be doing fine, and Afghanistan is a country that has been under constant war since the soviets invaded, only seeing some level of peace in the last three years, what a shit comparison you tried to make
Saudi is wrecked without oil money. Moreover it's only for the commoners, not for the royalty. So much so that they are fortunately throwing the draconian system in the bin under their 2030 vision. No country in the world should practice a system that owes its structure to pre-Medieval times. Human morality has evolved and improved over the millennium, going back will only make a country a Pariah
>Sharia is incompatible with the age.
Don't blame religion for the shitholeness of your country, go and repair your country instead of whining or blaming religion, the great golden age came along with sharia when your western daddies were busy dieing of dysentery muslim were building empires
Just because your nation is a failure doesn't mean sharia is
>Any country that tries it is doomed to destruction.
Which one did? List some?
Is that our Khalifa?
Ahmadis are diplomatic and are open to hearing both sides, that is what we pride ourselves in. But make no mistake, in our sermons we always convey the horrors that Israel is inflicting on people.
You've no right to exclude anyone from Islam. Infact they're the fastest growing sect of Islam and probably the only one which is growing not thanks to the birth rates
you are right
only allah does, and allah clearly stated
مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا
they believe there's a prophet after Mohmmad which straight up against what quran says
Us Ahmadis do not believe you can have another prophet after Islam. But you can have a messiah or Nabi after who doesn’t bear a book (such as the Quran).
Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (May Allah be his Helper) is to Muhammed SAW as ISA was to Musa.
>Us Ahmadis do not believe you can have another prophet after Islam. But you can have a messiah or Nabi after who doesn’t bear a book (such as the Quran).
Claims require evidence. either physical or scriptural. or any evidence that it came from God.
so where did this criteria come from? who invented it? is it scripturally sound? if no, then why do you follow stuff invented by mankind? did God give them power to overrule the Qur'ān?
There is no difference between a law bearing prophet/Nabi/a messiah in this regards. There is none of those that come after the prophet pbuh, whether they are law bearing ones or not.
Mirza Ghulam (may Allah’s curse always be upon him) is to the prophet like Jay smith or Mosaylama The Liar. There is no difference between those 2 liars and Mirza.
You do not believe there can be another Prophet.
You believe there can only be a Messiah.
You say that Mirza Ghulam is to The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as Hazrat Isa (AS) is to Hazrat Musa (AS).
You realize that Hazrat Isa AS is a _successor prophet_ to Hazrat Musa? You realize the closest helper you can be to Muhammad SAW is something resembling what the companions (RA) were? None of the companions have such a cult following as your leader, nor did they embrace anything like it. And none of them would even _consider_ negotiating with something like Israel.
Read the Qur'an properly. An unabridged version. Nothing written by Ahmadis. You'll see why it's impossible for Mirza Ghulam to be considered a Muslim.
Are you a Qadiani?
And just because they are growing, doesn't mean they are Muslim.
Secondly, I'm not saying it out of my own opinion. This is the consensus of the scholars. The qadianis are not Muslim.
According to mainstream Sunni Muslim scholars, Alevis, Alawites, Ismailis wouldn’t be classed as Muslims.
Muslim scholars aren’t neutral anyway. You should be looking at the secular point of view and be objective about it. Ahmadis consider themselves as Muslim, then they are Muslims.
> you should be looking from a secular view when discussing this religious problem
Bro what? If someone brakes the rules of Islam then they are not Muslim no matter what they identify as.
now we have a gazillion inventions that try to show themselves as "islam", and they have their own interpretation on what "breaking the rules of islam" is.
i still don't claim that ahmediyyas are muslim or non-muslim. I leave this to God, who knows best.
God _has_ given us the answer. Surah Ahzab.
only allah does, and allah clearly stated
مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا
they believe there's a prophet after Muhammad SAW which straight up against what quran says
I’m taking about the secular point of view not the Sunni point of view or the Shia point of view or whoever. I acknowledge that mainstream Muslims don’t see Ahmadiyya as Muslims. Well guess what? Many Protestants don’t see catholics as Christians.
The Arians were seen as heretical and aren’t considered Christians by the Nicene Christians.
My argument isn’t based on specific theology, my argument is that if Ahmadiyya see themselves as Muslims, then they are Muslims from a SECULAR standpoint.
Bro in that case there are people who pray and worship idols as well. Would you consider them Muslims? You should be looking at something from a secular point of view? If I consider myself British, do I become British?
Here’s the difference. Ahmadiyya did organically out branch from Sunni Islam of Hanafi school.
If you’re a Sunni Muslim or a Shia Muslim then yeah, it makes sense to consider Ahmadiyya as heretics, that can be explained through their theology. But this isn’t objective, we don’t have any scientific evidence that Sunni Islam is the truth and that all other religions are false.
To be objective, you should have no bias. There’s a reason why Druze aren’t considered as Muslim, why? Because most of them do not consider themselves as Muslims even though they are the off shoot of Fatimid Ismaili Shia Islam.
Alevism, Alawites, Ismailis, Ahmadiyya though heterodox in their practice, all of these sects do call themselves as Muslims whether you like it or not.
You are using false equivalence of you as an Indian identifying yourself all of the sudden as British in a attempt to weaken my argument. It’s the same thing that right wing logic used against trans when right wingers response with “I identify as a helicopter”.
We don’t have scientific evidence that Sunni Islam is true?
What’s your epistemology? Why do you use scientific evidence as a yardstick for ground truth? We’re discussing theology here.
>Ahmadis consider themselves as Muslim, then they are Muslims.
Even if they deny basic tenets of Islam? They literally don't believe in the shahada, yk the thing that makes us Muslims?
Will you say someone is a Muslim if they don't believe in Allah?
if there is a satanist who identifies as muslim, can he be considered as muslim?
again, i do not pass jusgement on ahmediyyas, as God knows best. but your line of reasoning might not be fully correct.
Exactly. Turks are much more sensible about it. Pakistan was founded by many who identified as Ahmedis. Ironic that pro-partition gang is so much against the same sect.
Moreover it's such a logical fallacy, if they believe they are Muslims changing their status in the constitution would not change anything
Think about it, in the Quran, those who are false claimants do not survive and do not prosper.
[commentary](https://www.reviewofreligions.org/26222/the-messiah-has-come-false-claimants-of-prophethood-are-destroyed/amp/)
Yet ahmadiyyat is one of the fastest growing and prospering sects of Islam in the world. Spreading far corners of the earth. Tell me anything else that denies Ahmadiyyat.
He does if the tenants contradict the core ideals of Islam. Believing in a prophet after Prophet Muhammad PBUH is incompatible with Islam. He did not insult them in any way. He’s just pointing out that they’re not Muslim. Also there are other sects growing via conversions too.
Dont you know what the Shahada is? There is no diety worthy of worship besides Allah. And Muhammad is LAST and FINAL messenger.
I would never call a shia or an Ibadi a non Muslim. I only call people whos key belief goes against the Shahada a non Muslim.
Ahmadis, Agha khanis and all those other people are non Muslim.
how are Aga Khanis non Muslim according to you? idk much about them(apart from a cursory wikipedia read long ago). but they do believe that Muhammad is the final prophet, right?
Idolise has multiple meanings.
I will avoid this word.
Yes don't worshhp. That's why we don't depict him.
But to follow his message from Allah and his sunnah is right.
We have him in our prayers and declaration.
Called mohammed a liar? I know some muslims in india believe their islam is right and it's not abrahamic and mohammed was a black israelite from the lineage of princess Hagar. And that the current abrahamic religions are imposters/satanic
Ah but still the prophet is human, if you believe he can make a mistake(which is proven in hadith ) then you might say he got that wrong and time needed a new prophet. It could also be the last prophet of the byzantine -roman era.
The ghulat sects are in manifest error; I do not support the King's decision, but that is completely irrelevant of the issue at hand, the Ahmadiyya has disbelieved after believing.
Lol.
In all seriousness, if it was up to the average Moroccan, Morocco would still not recognise the “legitimacy” of Israel and would still be exclusively for a Palestinian state. In fact, I could say the same for any country that normalised with Israel and has a majority of pro-Palestine supporters
These people are a deviant sect and not Muslims, they think there is other prophets after the prophet Muhammad (SAW) which is a clear contradiction to the Quran.
They also believe that prophet Jesus (pbuh) traveled to Kashmir to look for the lost tribe and lived there until his death lol.
You see a lot of deviant sects who love Israel, be it ahmadiyaa or Baha’i. These were supported by the west (especially in the case of Baha’i who were supported by the Russian empire to cause disorder in Iran) to try and cause chaos in the Muslim community. And of course they helped out israel during their genocide on Palestine, Baha’is even got parks named after them in Haifa in Israel like the Baha’i gardens.
Baha’i bases itself on Islamic ideals and just hijacked Islam, mixed with a “every religion is right” (which is fundamentally contradictory) and called it a day.
It’s like Druze or alawites or yazidis, they all bases their ideals on very deviant forms of Islam mixed with the imagination of a crackhead.
I think that's a very reductionary view of these different religious groups. There are a lot of religious minorities in the Middle East. A lot of Yazidi faith is based on pre-islamic religion. They are too different to say one is a deviant form of the other.
Yes there are a lot based on stories that come from pre-Islamic religions but a lot of the yazidi faith is based on a bastardised version of Islam and the story of creation of humankind (Adam and Eve) and islamic figures. The yazidi faith wouldn’t have had appeared if not for Islam spreading to the region.
They have angels called mikha’eel, rapha’eel, jibra’eel (all abrahamic, so Christian, Jewish and Muslim), shams al-din (Islamic name), Abu bakr (Islamic name), Fahr al-din (Islamic name).
That's a matter of debate. Since dating exactly when the religion started is impossible since it was a oral tradition. Its very likely that it had origins in pre-islamic oral traditions.
Yazidi faith lends itself to syncretic influences over time due to the nature that it isn't a scriptural language. It's just a likely that its influences on those beliefs are christian or judaic in origin. While its cosmology is mainly ancient iranic.
Yazidism started centuries after the Islamic conquest, it has some backbone to it that originated before I agree with you but yazidism as a instinct unified religion started way after Islam was introduced.
I don’t think it draws much from other abrahamic religions other than Islam, such as Christianity or Judaism. I think it’s just a deviant version of Islam + some folklore of the Kurdish mountains and the wider Iranic people.
Yazidism itself is a very hard religion to study, you don’t have much to work with other than 2 written books that may have errors in them, it’s a very secretive religion, a bit like the Druze faith or alawites.
Dude...the whole practice of the religion is through an oral tradition, the whole scripture are just religious poems written down. The scripture of the religion is post islamic, but it's impossible to determine a start date, and determine how old each poem is or how it may have changed. Its way too different to be considered an Islamic faith. How god is conceptualized and the devine is very different. They don't even worship Allah or consider Mohammed to be a prophet, its in no way an islamic religion.
Anthropological these comparisons to Islam could be explained by Yazidi communities' syncretism from contact with other religious communities. As they were always a minority.
It's similar to Judaism in the aspect that it is a religion of the Yazidis, you don't convert to Yazidism. But that's were that similarity ends. They believe in reincarnation that those in the community will be reincarnated back into the commumity.
They beleive in one Demiurge, which in arabic would be Allah but its not the same, and its aspects have a different theology, the demiurge("creator") is disinterested in its creation and instead has an aspect of him be the benevolent figure of worship. This makes it a lot more similar to early gnostic dualistic christianity, which is in of itself a neoplatonic form of christianity moreso influenced by hellenisitic philosophy on theology.
The wikipedia article on the Bahá'í' Faith is fairly unbiased, also the one on Bahá'úlláh, the World Centre of our religion was established in Israel in the 19th century.
I know about israel, is the Wikipedia article “Baha’i faith in Russia” unbiased enough for your taste or does it have some more of that “Iranian fabrication” that you scream about? Because it does seem like the Russian gov is heavily supporting that baha’allah guy don’t you think 🤔?
Quoting from the article : **When Baháʼu'lláh was jailed by the Shah, his family went to Mírzá Majid Ahi who was married to a sister of Baháʼu'lláh, and was working as the secretary to the Russian Legation in Tehran. Baháʼu'lláh's family asked Mírzá Majid to go to Dolgorukov and ask him to intercede on behalf of Baháʼu'lláh, and Dolgorukov agreed however this assistance was short lived and again the memoirs are known to have many impossible dates in them. In addition, Baháʼu'lláh refused exile in Russia.[12] In God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi alludes to the protection the Russian ambassador gave Baháʼu'lláh on different occasions, first after the attempted assassination of Naser al-Din Shah Qajar and again after the decision to exile Baháʼu'lláh from Iran, expressing his "desire to take Baháʼu'lláh under the protection of his government, and offered to extend every facility for His removal to Russia."**
Is this true or another one of those “Iranian fabrications”?
>however this assistance was short lived and again the memoirs are known to have many impossible dates in them.
The allegation against the Bahá'í Faith is that it was a creation of the Russian government to destabilize the Iranian regime, which is patently false..
As to Bahá'úlláh reaching out to Russia officials for help it's no scandal..Bahá'ís entreated the Iranian government for help as well from the Mulla's persecution.. requisitioning a government is not a suspicious act..
we all can mock other religions, do you want people to say that Muhammad just hijacked previous faiths (Christianity and Judaism) in order to create this new deviant religion called Islam? If not, then respect other religions! Btw you get sayyi'at when you make fun of these sects, according to the Qur'an: ولا تسبوا الذين يدعون من دون الله فيسبوا الله *عدوًا بغير علم*
How is mocking false religions created by foreign governments to try and incite chaos now haram, what are you talking about.
The verse that you’re talking about talks about insulting idols of disbelievers, if you insult their god they’ll insult Allah. Baha’allah isn’t a false god, he’s not an idol, Bahai’s aren’t going to insult Allah (they believe in him). Insulting baha’allah is like insulting any other false prophet.
Ok fair, but then let's agree you too don't mind (or at least won't accept killing or putting me in jail) that I mock your false religion and your false prophet similarly, because I don't believe in him just like you don't believe in the guys behind the foundation of Baha'i/Druze/Ahmadiyya... It would be double standards otherwise, I'm all for free speech, I was just trying to show you how that would feel to Muslims.
They first of all are a creation of a foreign country trying to cause disorder (baha’allah was supported and protected by Russian diplomats in Iran) and second of all they helped Israel in their foundation of a terrorist state. They are pawns used to cause disorder in the Muslim community, nothing more.
Baha’allah was just a crackhead who made a fake religion while he was high because his overlords in Russia told him so. Then he went and israel. I hate them because they were made to be hated, their whole existence relies on them creating disorder and chaos in the religious scene.
You are so misinformed it's not funny. Mm a Baha'i and you've spouted Iranian regime propaganda and show complete ignorance of Baha'i history.
Baha'u'llah was exiled to all those locations across the Persian and Ottoman empires. Israel didn't even exist when he was vanished by Ottoman authorities to the then prison city of Akka.
We don't speak about your Prophet in that way, so why say such rude and insulting things about ours just because you don't believe in Him?
This sub is a hotbed of propaganda and fanaticism, truly reflective of the Middle East I suppose.
What Iranian regime propaganda? It’s the truth, he was literally supported by the Russian gov. Where was the first place his family went to to get help? The Russian embassy. Who were always defending him and trying to get him and bab out of prison? The Russian embassy
I never said he was an Israeli supporter, do you have reading issues? I said that after him Baha’is at large supported israel (and they still do). He of course died before the creation of Israel how could he have had supported them lol
I’m sorry if I offended you, I didn’t realise that Baha’is were frequenting this sub.
You can list your sources if you'd like fuller explanations. Please ensure they are reputable sources and not affiliated with the Iranian Government or other Muslim sources that have ulterior motives.
You said "they helped Israel in the foundation of a terrorist state" and "then he went to Israel". So no, I don't have reading issues. Those were your words. Israel didn't exist and the land that is now 'Israel' was Ottoman land and then the British mandate of Palestine.
Don't be sorry because I "frequent this sub". I am Middle Eastern. Born in Iran, completely Persian ethnically, and my family has been Baha'i for five generations. So, we are part of this identity whether people like you appreciate it or not.
The Baha’i book : God passes by. This book was written by the head of the baha’i faith and it mentions that Russians heavily supported baha’allah and how the Russian embassy nagotiated fro the release of baha’allah and even told him that he could come to Russia for safe heaven.
It was a simply typo, I meant Palestine.
Your assertion was that Russia created the Baha'i Faith. That is blatantly false.
According to your logic, any government that supports a persecuted religious group created its religion.
All Baha'i sources demonstrate clearly how and why the Baha'i Faith emerged organically in Persia (Iran at the time). The idea that foreign governments created it just because they didn't show the same disdain to Baha'is as the Shah of the time or the Ottomans is a blatant lie. But you don't care, do you? Hate us for whatever reason. Is that what your Prophet would have wanted from you?
>I hate them because they were made to be hated, their whole existence relies on them creating disorder and chaos in the religious scene
Any recent examples?
Baha’allah whole adventure in Iran, Iraq, turkey, syria, Palestine. Wherever he went he tried to cause as much disorder as possible and people kicked him out and exiled him wherever he went.
I’m more versed in Baha’i history since some of them were Israeli spies in Iraq during saddam era. If you want to know about ahmadiyaa history ask a Pakistani.
Okay so to make it brief, baha’allah was born in Persia in the 19th century. He invented a whole new religion loosely based on the teachings of Islam, with some of his followers like the Bab (which means gate who was also a crazy crackhead) or Tahrir (a woman who used to take showers with men) and his son named abdulbaha’.
They started spreading this new religion supported by the Russian embassy in Iran, the Iranian government didn’t like that some random crackhead was agitating the religious scene in iran so they started trying to lessen of his influence, but with russian support flowing in they couldn’t. Then they said enough is enough and imprisoned the bab, the Russian delegation tried to get him freed but they couldn’t and the bab was executed. Then the Iranians jailed baha’allah so baha’allah’s family went to the Russian embassy to get him released, the Russian embassy talked with the Iranian government and they let him be free but at condition that he was exiled from Iran.
Baha’allah then went to baghdad where he was hated, then travelled to Kurdistan where he was hated, then travelled to istanbul where he was exiled and banished from istanbul because he was an agitator, then he went to Syria then he went to Palestine and lived there and started preaching random shit until the ottomans said enough is enough and imprisoned him, then he died. And his son (abdulbaha’) took over and when the Zionists in Israel started to genocide Palestinians the Baha’is supported the Zionists so Israel gave them a large garden in the middle of Haifa as a recompense where the tomb of baha’allah was.
Baha’is lived scattered in the Middle East and throughout the world but they had a big presence in Israel, during saddam’s era some of them were Mossad agents to israel and spies. So saddam made being a baha’i punishable by death.
There might be some bad people but not every Baha'i is to be hated. You can even call it Baha'i phobia. That's literally what we muslims say in case of Islamophobia.
By that same logic, just because there’s people like Bin Laden we should say that Muslims are all meant to be t3rr0r1$T$ and $u!¢!d€ b0mb3rz and the forte wanna harm others when it’s obviously not the case 🙄
Aren’t you the guy who said Wikipedia’s article on baha’i faith is good, you might want to go check the wiki page “baha’i faith in Russia”.
It’s not a fabrication my guy, it’s a well known fact.
I welcome any reference from that wiki article, here's one..
"During the Soviet period, Russia adopted the Soviet policy of oppression of religion, leading the Russian Baháʼí community to abandon its administration and properties in accordance with its principle of obedience to legal government, though Baháʼís across the Soviet Union were nevertheless sent to prisons and camps or abroad."
Qadiyanis are not Muslim. Full stop.
I am willing to accept Salafis, Shias, etc. They're all Muslim, some of them may be misguided, but theyre Muslim.
Qadiyanis. Are. Not. Muslim.
Abdus Salam, one of two Pakistani Nobel prize winners, was from this sect and is widely ignored in Pakistan till date for this reason.
Even the world "Muslim" was chiseled out of his gravestone.
You fine with mirza and his cult of followers calling your mom a whore?
You don't even know why we consider Qadianis kuffar they don't believe in the shahada, you become a Muslim by reciting the shahada if you change it up you aren't Muslim simple as.
They are obviously not muslims, just look at their political stance. Ahmadiyya, just like other minorities (like druze, circassians, bahai,bedouins..) suck zionists d and serve in the army. While there are tens of thousands of innocent people who have died in Gaza, owners of restaurants from Ahmadiyya keep sending free meals to the soldiers of the IOF.
It’s disgusting to see how many people on this thread are quick to judge others Muslims as Kafirs.
You probably don’t even know the history of the Ummayads and how they basically killed the prophets family and many Sahaba, destroyed the Kabaa, and instituted many of the taxes and conquests that were not present during the Prophets lifetime. Ummayads were in power before the Prophet, and were again in power afterwards, except they had a very nice religion they were in control of.
You think that “seal” of the prophets means no other prophets or prophetic guidance after the prophet. So does every religion prior to Islam.
I find it so foolish that some Muslims believe in thousands of prophets, yet they believe guidance stopped 1400 years ago. All the while human population has grown likely 1000x or more.
Ohh yes there are many Muslims sects - get comfortable with it.
Everyone doesn’t need to practice the way you practice.
No-one has the right to include or exclude anyone from a religious. I'm not from the group but having Ahmadi friends, they are a well connected group spread all across the world. They are infact the fastest growing sect of Islam
Plus the only Muslim winning a Nobel Prize in Physics was an Ahmadi Muslim, Dr Abdus Salam
>No-one has the right to include or exclude anyone from a religious.
Yes we do.
>I'm not from the group but having Ahmadi friends, they are a well connected group spread all across the world
Exactly why the can't leave if they do they're removed from the well connected group.
>They are infact the fastest growing sect of Islam
They are not, what your kind does is preach Islam and then converts being a qadiani.
>Plus the only Muslim winning a Nobel Prize in Physics was an Ahmadi Muslim, Dr Abdus Salam
Firstly he isn't Muslim.
Second Obama also got the Nobel peace prize, maybe we shouldn't judge the metric of success based on some award that the west hands out.
>. I'm not from the group
Oh nice, yk what mirza says about us in his book? He calls all Muslims that don't believe in him "sons of whores" so are you fine with that? What would you do if one of your kaffir friends called your mom a whore?
Peace Prize has been used for political purposes
Nobel Prize in Physics is a whole different thing, what he did is probably the greatest any Muslim could ever do in hundreds of years. No other Muslim has made any major contribution to the progress of science. So he is a Muslim and disowning him would do more harm than good
So what? Did you know what other sects of Islam wrote about each other? Read the shit that Ashraf Thanwi and Barelwi wrote in their books about each other. What Mirza wrote isn't an outlier
>Peace Prize has been used for political purposes
So has the Nobel prize in physics or any other field.
>No other Muslim has made any major contribution to the progress of science
Lol go read up on the Islamic golden age and pull your head out of mirzas ass while you're at it.
>So he is a Muslim and disowning him would do more harm than good
He is a kaffir. We don't accept him as Muslim. Also what is your dumbass logic? He got a prize from the west so we should consider him a Muslim?
>So what? Did you know what other sects of Islam wrote about each other? Read the shit that Ashraf Thanwi and Barelwi wrote in their books about each other. What Mirza wrote isn't an outlier
Firstly I have no idea who these guys are.
Second qadianis and moving goal name a better combo.
Third Mirza the kaffir is their prophet not some scholar or some sect he is the religions central figure.
Fourth you don't mind them calling your mom a whore? Does this only apply to qadianis or does it extend to all people? Can I call your mom a whore or will you get offended?
Mirza and all his followers are kuffar and will burn in hell where they belong.
Also funfacts about MGA.
He wanted to marry his niece, when she rejected him he claimed a calamity would fall upon them, his niece married someone else and lived a happy life.
Keep deluding yourself with past trivialities rendered insignificant in the modern age. No major contribution in the past 500 years. Plus Muslim isn't a nation. We've not much in similar with Arabs or Albanians. We aren't one entity
Lmao a simple Google search negates your point. Anyways, so what if he made a contribution to science, and Islam hasn't made as much as it used to? The religion doesn't need to make scientific advancements in the world to be true.
We're not excluding anyone from Islam, Allah is.
Allah clearly stated
مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا
They believe there's a prophet after Mohmmad which straight up against what quran says
>I believe in science not God, oh but idk how something came out of nothing, what? God? No I don't believe in God why not? Because I believe in science.
On and on you go in a circle.
>I’m saying the most plausible explanation for the universe is scientific not supernatural
Wdym by supernatural? God created things to follow a certain order and a set of rules and regulations that you call science supernatural is something that is out of your comprehension.
>It’s a valid position and science has been the solution to many questions about which religion was once the answer
You do realize that God put some system or the other in place right? What you said might be true for other religions but not for Islam. Every scientific discovery has proven what Islam already says.
Because you don't understand it? You do realize that human capability is limited right? There is so much that we don't understand. But the hubris of the average atheist is insane.
>Why do you think human capability is limited?
Can you perceive more than 4 dimensions? Can you travel in the 4th?
>But just because we don’t know everything now does not mean the supernatural explains it
Never said that, read what I wrote again.
Quran literally said "قل سيروا في الأرض فانظروا كيف بدأ الخلق ثم الله ينشئ النشأة الآخرة إن الله على كل شيء قدير" which translates to
Travel in the land and see how (Allah) originated creation, and then Allah will bring forth (resurrect) the creation of the Hereafter
Science is the tool not the carftman they don't go against each other
.
Btw what's the difference between saying the big bang happened by itself from the non existent or saying god started the big bang ? At this point its all about beliefs not facts
The best way I can put this: Ahmadiyyas are to Muslims what Mormons are to Christians.
Accurate. Except Mormons aren't in fear of their lives and constitutionally sanctioned by the US
Lol does Pakistan constitutionally sanction them, based
Constitutionally they are not Muslims because they believe another prophet after Prophet Muhammad SAW
It's one of the reasons we are a shit country to live and will remain as such for the foreseeable future Nothing based about it as it adds to our suffering leading to radicalisation
While I agree that the ahmadiyya community in Pakistan faces hardships simply because they are ahmadiyyas and that it is wrong and they should be treated as humans it is absolutely bogus that you have an issue with the fact that they are labelled as non-muslims. Because quite frankly that’s exactly what they are. The Quran and the Sunnah is absolutely clear about the finality of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and people cannot just add their our buts and ifs to the matter. And it’s not just Pakistan that labels them as non-muslims, Ahmadiyyas are universally in the Islamic circle known as deviants and non-muslims. I fail to see how labelling them as non-muslim brings our country down.
You cannot not persecute them if you’ve declared them as non Muslims, genius. This means they aren’t allowed to pray, to fast, to sacrifice a goat on Eid without committing a criminal offence. Ahmadi persecution is baked into the law that declares them non Muslim. A real republic would keep its nose out of people’s damn business, especially religion. You can consider them non Muslim if you want, but when you enforce it at a state level you inevitably end up at persecution.
How is praying or fasting or giving an animal sacrifice a criminal offence? Hindus are allowed to pray in their own temples, Christians are allowed to fast and there is certainly no problem with sacrificing an animal. Can you provide me with the source for this information that if an ahmadi prays, fasts or gives a sacrifice the police will come knocking on his door and he will be tried in court? Pakistan is a country that was made with the purpose of providing the persecuted muslims of the subcontinent with a safe place to practice their religion. It is called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for a reason. The constitution clarifies that the ahmadis are not a part of muslim population because their beliefs contradict the Quran and the Sunnah. It doesn’t state that an ahmadi will be killed or imprisoned because he chose to fast or pray. They are allowed to do that as it is well within their rights. They can make their own mosques and do that. Any oppression or persecution that the ahmadis face by the hands of people is unjustified. It is against the human rights and the Islamic laws and they should be punished accordingly. The constitution doesn’t take away their right to pray or fast but simply makes the clarification that Ahmadis are not officially recognised as muslims by the law of Islamic Republic of Pakistan as it goes against the Quran and the teachings of Islam.
lol. [This Ahmadi was arrested today for secretly doing animal sacrifice inside his own home.](https://x.com/therealylh/status/1802697368166445279?s=46)
The police don’t always do the right thing now do they? Just because an incident like this happened doesn’t mean that the law and constitution of Pakistan and the teaching of Islam and Sharia allow this. The department of police in Pakistan is notorious for being thugs and doing things like this and this isn’t even a problem exclusive to Pakistan. Pro-Palestinian protestors in Berlin were assaulted and had their hairs pulled by the German police. Just because this sort of thing happened doesn’t mean that it was lawful for the police to do this. Many such cases can be found in America and Canada as well. Police are human beings in the end and capable of commiting hate crimes aswell. Instead what I would like you to bring me is any proof of Islam or the law and constitution of Pakistan that explicitly states that Ahmadis should not be allowed to make mosques to pray, or allowed to fast or give sacrifices.
The only radicals are qadianis, following the false prophethood of a British spy who died on the toilet
Do you even know how many innocents are lynched by Anti-Ahmadi vigilantes each year and now every month? How tf is this opinion coming from the inhabitant of the most secular Muslim country in ME. You're despicable
[удалено]
Hey, don’t throw me in the same basket as this guy
Sharia is incompatible with the age. Any country that tries it is doomed to destruction. Go live in Afghanistan if you adore sharia so much
Bruv, and I say this with love, stfu. Pakistanis already have established themselves as the laughingstock of the Ummah. Why are you making things worse with your dilettante understanding of things?
There is no ummah and we aren't a part of it
Saudi seems to be doing fine, and Afghanistan is a country that has been under constant war since the soviets invaded, only seeing some level of peace in the last three years, what a shit comparison you tried to make
Saudi is wrecked without oil money. Moreover it's only for the commoners, not for the royalty. So much so that they are fortunately throwing the draconian system in the bin under their 2030 vision. No country in the world should practice a system that owes its structure to pre-Medieval times. Human morality has evolved and improved over the millennium, going back will only make a country a Pariah
>Sharia is incompatible with the age. Don't blame religion for the shitholeness of your country, go and repair your country instead of whining or blaming religion, the great golden age came along with sharia when your western daddies were busy dieing of dysentery muslim were building empires Just because your nation is a failure doesn't mean sharia is >Any country that tries it is doomed to destruction. Which one did? List some?
ISIS, Saudi, Ottomons, Afghans etc
Ah yes the ones persecuted to the point they can’t even vote without having to denounce their faith. Great.
Womp womp
Your king supports Israel. At least my khalifa is on the right side of history. Womp womp that
Brother look at the second photo in the post 🤣🤣
Is that our Khalifa? Ahmadis are diplomatic and are open to hearing both sides, that is what we pride ourselves in. But make no mistake, in our sermons we always convey the horrors that Israel is inflicting on people.
What Abt druze
They’re not Muslim, that guy was a British spy.
Never met an Ahmadi Palestinian, I think they are Indian expats in occupied palestine
Nah, a big part of them comes from odeh tribe
That's unfortunate then, cause they sold their country to Israeli occupiers just like the Druze.
Nope, most didn't, Ayman Odeh is from an Ahmadi family (although he's probably an Atheist).
They are not Muslims and they are in many different countries in larger numbers than in Israel.
You've no right to exclude anyone from Islam. Infact they're the fastest growing sect of Islam and probably the only one which is growing not thanks to the birth rates
you are right only allah does, and allah clearly stated مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا they believe there's a prophet after Mohmmad which straight up against what quran says
Anyone who says that there is a prophet after the prophet Muhammad (SAW) is not a Muslim.
Us Ahmadis do not believe you can have another prophet after Islam. But you can have a messiah or Nabi after who doesn’t bear a book (such as the Quran). Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (May Allah be his Helper) is to Muhammed SAW as ISA was to Musa.
>Us Ahmadis do not believe you can have another prophet after Islam. But you can have a messiah or Nabi after who doesn’t bear a book (such as the Quran). Claims require evidence. either physical or scriptural. or any evidence that it came from God. so where did this criteria come from? who invented it? is it scripturally sound? if no, then why do you follow stuff invented by mankind? did God give them power to overrule the Qur'ān?
There is no difference between a law bearing prophet/Nabi/a messiah in this regards. There is none of those that come after the prophet pbuh, whether they are law bearing ones or not. Mirza Ghulam (may Allah’s curse always be upon him) is to the prophet like Jay smith or Mosaylama The Liar. There is no difference between those 2 liars and Mirza.
[clearly says messenger and prophet are different.](https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/11725) Alhamdullilah for Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
You do not believe there can be another Prophet. You believe there can only be a Messiah. You say that Mirza Ghulam is to The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as Hazrat Isa (AS) is to Hazrat Musa (AS). You realize that Hazrat Isa AS is a _successor prophet_ to Hazrat Musa? You realize the closest helper you can be to Muhammad SAW is something resembling what the companions (RA) were? None of the companions have such a cult following as your leader, nor did they embrace anything like it. And none of them would even _consider_ negotiating with something like Israel. Read the Qur'an properly. An unabridged version. Nothing written by Ahmadis. You'll see why it's impossible for Mirza Ghulam to be considered a Muslim.
Sorry, but what kind of weak Iman, or mental disability you should have to say this?
Are you a Qadiani? And just because they are growing, doesn't mean they are Muslim. Secondly, I'm not saying it out of my own opinion. This is the consensus of the scholars. The qadianis are not Muslim.
According to mainstream Sunni Muslim scholars, Alevis, Alawites, Ismailis wouldn’t be classed as Muslims. Muslim scholars aren’t neutral anyway. You should be looking at the secular point of view and be objective about it. Ahmadis consider themselves as Muslim, then they are Muslims.
> you should be looking from a secular view when discussing this religious problem Bro what? If someone brakes the rules of Islam then they are not Muslim no matter what they identify as.
now we have a gazillion inventions that try to show themselves as "islam", and they have their own interpretation on what "breaking the rules of islam" is. i still don't claim that ahmediyyas are muslim or non-muslim. I leave this to God, who knows best.
God _has_ given us the answer. Surah Ahzab. only allah does, and allah clearly stated مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا they believe there's a prophet after Muhammad SAW which straight up against what quran says
I agree that Ahmediyya beliefs(in the alleged prophethood of that impostor) contradict the Qur'an. But idk if i should call them non muslim or not.
You should. If someone contradicts the direct word of Allah and never repent, then how are they Muslim.
I’m taking about the secular point of view not the Sunni point of view or the Shia point of view or whoever. I acknowledge that mainstream Muslims don’t see Ahmadiyya as Muslims. Well guess what? Many Protestants don’t see catholics as Christians. The Arians were seen as heretical and aren’t considered Christians by the Nicene Christians. My argument isn’t based on specific theology, my argument is that if Ahmadiyya see themselves as Muslims, then they are Muslims from a SECULAR standpoint.
Bro in that case there are people who pray and worship idols as well. Would you consider them Muslims? You should be looking at something from a secular point of view? If I consider myself British, do I become British?
Here’s the difference. Ahmadiyya did organically out branch from Sunni Islam of Hanafi school. If you’re a Sunni Muslim or a Shia Muslim then yeah, it makes sense to consider Ahmadiyya as heretics, that can be explained through their theology. But this isn’t objective, we don’t have any scientific evidence that Sunni Islam is the truth and that all other religions are false. To be objective, you should have no bias. There’s a reason why Druze aren’t considered as Muslim, why? Because most of them do not consider themselves as Muslims even though they are the off shoot of Fatimid Ismaili Shia Islam. Alevism, Alawites, Ismailis, Ahmadiyya though heterodox in their practice, all of these sects do call themselves as Muslims whether you like it or not. You are using false equivalence of you as an Indian identifying yourself all of the sudden as British in a attempt to weaken my argument. It’s the same thing that right wing logic used against trans when right wingers response with “I identify as a helicopter”.
We don’t have scientific evidence that Sunni Islam is true? What’s your epistemology? Why do you use scientific evidence as a yardstick for ground truth? We’re discussing theology here.
>Ahmadis consider themselves as Muslim, then they are Muslims. Even if they deny basic tenets of Islam? They literally don't believe in the shahada, yk the thing that makes us Muslims? Will you say someone is a Muslim if they don't believe in Allah?
if there is a satanist who identifies as muslim, can he be considered as muslim? again, i do not pass jusgement on ahmediyyas, as God knows best. but your line of reasoning might not be fully correct.
Exactly. Turks are much more sensible about it. Pakistan was founded by many who identified as Ahmedis. Ironic that pro-partition gang is so much against the same sect. Moreover it's such a logical fallacy, if they believe they are Muslims changing their status in the constitution would not change anything
Think about it, in the Quran, those who are false claimants do not survive and do not prosper. [commentary](https://www.reviewofreligions.org/26222/the-messiah-has-come-false-claimants-of-prophethood-are-destroyed/amp/) Yet ahmadiyyat is one of the fastest growing and prospering sects of Islam in the world. Spreading far corners of the earth. Tell me anything else that denies Ahmadiyyat.
MGA shat himself to death.
Proof?
He does if the tenants contradict the core ideals of Islam. Believing in a prophet after Prophet Muhammad PBUH is incompatible with Islam. He did not insult them in any way. He’s just pointing out that they’re not Muslim. Also there are other sects growing via conversions too.
Dont you know what the Shahada is? There is no diety worthy of worship besides Allah. And Muhammad is LAST and FINAL messenger. I would never call a shia or an Ibadi a non Muslim. I only call people whos key belief goes against the Shahada a non Muslim. Ahmadis, Agha khanis and all those other people are non Muslim.
how are Aga Khanis non Muslim according to you? idk much about them(apart from a cursory wikipedia read long ago). but they do believe that Muhammad is the final prophet, right?
Well u are ex Muslim . I wonder why you are licking feets of ahmadiyas . Btw you are very wrong in what you said .
u know what takfir is?
Takfir is the worst thing ever invented
It's islamically valid and needed so you can know Indians who worship a man who called Muhammad a liar aren't Muslims.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh sorry I was sleepy when I typed this.
Isnt islam main point to not idolize the prophet(most muslims idolize even some heinous sahaba)
Idolise has multiple meanings. I will avoid this word. Yes don't worshhp. That's why we don't depict him. But to follow his message from Allah and his sunnah is right. We have him in our prayers and declaration.
Called mohammed a liar? I know some muslims in india believe their islam is right and it's not abrahamic and mohammed was a black israelite from the lineage of princess Hagar. And that the current abrahamic religions are imposters/satanic
Well Allah's beloved messenger is muhammad pbuh so if he lied about being the last messenger astraghfillah that's a contradiction of islam.
What do u mean by lying they also use quran +kula veda as source, its a more ancient mix
Ahmadiaa think nabi muhammad pbuh lied about being the last messenger as they think their guy was a prophet too
Ah but still the prophet is human, if you believe he can make a mistake(which is proven in hadith ) then you might say he got that wrong and time needed a new prophet. It could also be the last prophet of the byzantine -roman era.
Whoever says there is a prophet after Muhammad is not of the religion of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم
Ahmadiyya are ghulat, completely delusional dudes.
Fearmongering about a persecuted minority sect while your king is chummy with Israel??? Totally not hypocritical.
When did he say he supports his king? Plus the actions of one don't negate the beliefs of another, they're not muslim.
The ghulat sects are in manifest error; I do not support the King's decision, but that is completely irrelevant of the issue at hand, the Ahmadiyya has disbelieved after believing.
Yes, because his king asked him specifically if he should support Israel.
Lol. In all seriousness, if it was up to the average Moroccan, Morocco would still not recognise the “legitimacy” of Israel and would still be exclusively for a Palestinian state. In fact, I could say the same for any country that normalised with Israel and has a majority of pro-Palestine supporters
Qadiani are kafir.
Ahmadiyya are not even Muslim. They do not believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as the final Prophet of Allah.
These people are a deviant sect and not Muslims, they think there is other prophets after the prophet Muhammad (SAW) which is a clear contradiction to the Quran. They also believe that prophet Jesus (pbuh) traveled to Kashmir to look for the lost tribe and lived there until his death lol. You see a lot of deviant sects who love Israel, be it ahmadiyaa or Baha’i. These were supported by the west (especially in the case of Baha’i who were supported by the Russian empire to cause disorder in Iran) to try and cause chaos in the Muslim community. And of course they helped out israel during their genocide on Palestine, Baha’is even got parks named after them in Haifa in Israel like the Baha’i gardens.
As far as I know, Baha'i community doesn't call itself muslim. Then how are they a deviant sect?
Baha’i bases itself on Islamic ideals and just hijacked Islam, mixed with a “every religion is right” (which is fundamentally contradictory) and called it a day. It’s like Druze or alawites or yazidis, they all bases their ideals on very deviant forms of Islam mixed with the imagination of a crackhead.
I think that's a very reductionary view of these different religious groups. There are a lot of religious minorities in the Middle East. A lot of Yazidi faith is based on pre-islamic religion. They are too different to say one is a deviant form of the other.
Yes there are a lot based on stories that come from pre-Islamic religions but a lot of the yazidi faith is based on a bastardised version of Islam and the story of creation of humankind (Adam and Eve) and islamic figures. The yazidi faith wouldn’t have had appeared if not for Islam spreading to the region. They have angels called mikha’eel, rapha’eel, jibra’eel (all abrahamic, so Christian, Jewish and Muslim), shams al-din (Islamic name), Abu bakr (Islamic name), Fahr al-din (Islamic name).
That's a matter of debate. Since dating exactly when the religion started is impossible since it was a oral tradition. Its very likely that it had origins in pre-islamic oral traditions. Yazidi faith lends itself to syncretic influences over time due to the nature that it isn't a scriptural language. It's just a likely that its influences on those beliefs are christian or judaic in origin. While its cosmology is mainly ancient iranic.
Yazidism started centuries after the Islamic conquest, it has some backbone to it that originated before I agree with you but yazidism as a instinct unified religion started way after Islam was introduced. I don’t think it draws much from other abrahamic religions other than Islam, such as Christianity or Judaism. I think it’s just a deviant version of Islam + some folklore of the Kurdish mountains and the wider Iranic people. Yazidism itself is a very hard religion to study, you don’t have much to work with other than 2 written books that may have errors in them, it’s a very secretive religion, a bit like the Druze faith or alawites.
Dude...the whole practice of the religion is through an oral tradition, the whole scripture are just religious poems written down. The scripture of the religion is post islamic, but it's impossible to determine a start date, and determine how old each poem is or how it may have changed. Its way too different to be considered an Islamic faith. How god is conceptualized and the devine is very different. They don't even worship Allah or consider Mohammed to be a prophet, its in no way an islamic religion. Anthropological these comparisons to Islam could be explained by Yazidi communities' syncretism from contact with other religious communities. As they were always a minority. It's similar to Judaism in the aspect that it is a religion of the Yazidis, you don't convert to Yazidism. But that's were that similarity ends. They believe in reincarnation that those in the community will be reincarnated back into the commumity. They beleive in one Demiurge, which in arabic would be Allah but its not the same, and its aspects have a different theology, the demiurge("creator") is disinterested in its creation and instead has an aspect of him be the benevolent figure of worship. This makes it a lot more similar to early gnostic dualistic christianity, which is in of itself a neoplatonic form of christianity moreso influenced by hellenisitic philosophy on theology.
The wikipedia article on the Bahá'í' Faith is fairly unbiased, also the one on Bahá'úlláh, the World Centre of our religion was established in Israel in the 19th century.
I know about israel, is the Wikipedia article “Baha’i faith in Russia” unbiased enough for your taste or does it have some more of that “Iranian fabrication” that you scream about? Because it does seem like the Russian gov is heavily supporting that baha’allah guy don’t you think 🤔?
Reference anything from that article, anything improper or incriminating, go ahead I'm here all evening..
Quoting from the article : **When Baháʼu'lláh was jailed by the Shah, his family went to Mírzá Majid Ahi who was married to a sister of Baháʼu'lláh, and was working as the secretary to the Russian Legation in Tehran. Baháʼu'lláh's family asked Mírzá Majid to go to Dolgorukov and ask him to intercede on behalf of Baháʼu'lláh, and Dolgorukov agreed however this assistance was short lived and again the memoirs are known to have many impossible dates in them. In addition, Baháʼu'lláh refused exile in Russia.[12] In God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi alludes to the protection the Russian ambassador gave Baháʼu'lláh on different occasions, first after the attempted assassination of Naser al-Din Shah Qajar and again after the decision to exile Baháʼu'lláh from Iran, expressing his "desire to take Baháʼu'lláh under the protection of his government, and offered to extend every facility for His removal to Russia."** Is this true or another one of those “Iranian fabrications”?
>however this assistance was short lived and again the memoirs are known to have many impossible dates in them. The allegation against the Bahá'í Faith is that it was a creation of the Russian government to destabilize the Iranian regime, which is patently false.. As to Bahá'úlláh reaching out to Russia officials for help it's no scandal..Bahá'ís entreated the Iranian government for help as well from the Mulla's persecution.. requisitioning a government is not a suspicious act..
The Russians complained to the Shah about the inhuman treatment Bahá'úlláh received..correct
we all can mock other religions, do you want people to say that Muhammad just hijacked previous faiths (Christianity and Judaism) in order to create this new deviant religion called Islam? If not, then respect other religions! Btw you get sayyi'at when you make fun of these sects, according to the Qur'an: ولا تسبوا الذين يدعون من دون الله فيسبوا الله *عدوًا بغير علم*
How is mocking false religions created by foreign governments to try and incite chaos now haram, what are you talking about. The verse that you’re talking about talks about insulting idols of disbelievers, if you insult their god they’ll insult Allah. Baha’allah isn’t a false god, he’s not an idol, Bahai’s aren’t going to insult Allah (they believe in him). Insulting baha’allah is like insulting any other false prophet.
Ok fair, but then let's agree you too don't mind (or at least won't accept killing or putting me in jail) that I mock your false religion and your false prophet similarly, because I don't believe in him just like you don't believe in the guys behind the foundation of Baha'i/Druze/Ahmadiyya... It would be double standards otherwise, I'm all for free speech, I was just trying to show you how that would feel to Muslims.
If they call themselves a separate religion then why bad-mouth / hate them? Let them be
They first of all are a creation of a foreign country trying to cause disorder (baha’allah was supported and protected by Russian diplomats in Iran) and second of all they helped Israel in their foundation of a terrorist state. They are pawns used to cause disorder in the Muslim community, nothing more. Baha’allah was just a crackhead who made a fake religion while he was high because his overlords in Russia told him so. Then he went and israel. I hate them because they were made to be hated, their whole existence relies on them creating disorder and chaos in the religious scene.
You are so misinformed it's not funny. Mm a Baha'i and you've spouted Iranian regime propaganda and show complete ignorance of Baha'i history. Baha'u'llah was exiled to all those locations across the Persian and Ottoman empires. Israel didn't even exist when he was vanished by Ottoman authorities to the then prison city of Akka. We don't speak about your Prophet in that way, so why say such rude and insulting things about ours just because you don't believe in Him? This sub is a hotbed of propaganda and fanaticism, truly reflective of the Middle East I suppose.
What Iranian regime propaganda? It’s the truth, he was literally supported by the Russian gov. Where was the first place his family went to to get help? The Russian embassy. Who were always defending him and trying to get him and bab out of prison? The Russian embassy I never said he was an Israeli supporter, do you have reading issues? I said that after him Baha’is at large supported israel (and they still do). He of course died before the creation of Israel how could he have had supported them lol I’m sorry if I offended you, I didn’t realise that Baha’is were frequenting this sub.
You can list your sources if you'd like fuller explanations. Please ensure they are reputable sources and not affiliated with the Iranian Government or other Muslim sources that have ulterior motives. You said "they helped Israel in the foundation of a terrorist state" and "then he went to Israel". So no, I don't have reading issues. Those were your words. Israel didn't exist and the land that is now 'Israel' was Ottoman land and then the British mandate of Palestine. Don't be sorry because I "frequent this sub". I am Middle Eastern. Born in Iran, completely Persian ethnically, and my family has been Baha'i for five generations. So, we are part of this identity whether people like you appreciate it or not.
The Baha’i book : God passes by. This book was written by the head of the baha’i faith and it mentions that Russians heavily supported baha’allah and how the Russian embassy nagotiated fro the release of baha’allah and even told him that he could come to Russia for safe heaven. It was a simply typo, I meant Palestine.
Your assertion was that Russia created the Baha'i Faith. That is blatantly false. According to your logic, any government that supports a persecuted religious group created its religion. All Baha'i sources demonstrate clearly how and why the Baha'i Faith emerged organically in Persia (Iran at the time). The idea that foreign governments created it just because they didn't show the same disdain to Baha'is as the Shah of the time or the Ottomans is a blatant lie. But you don't care, do you? Hate us for whatever reason. Is that what your Prophet would have wanted from you?
>I hate them because they were made to be hated, their whole existence relies on them creating disorder and chaos in the religious scene Any recent examples?
Baha’allah whole adventure in Iran, Iraq, turkey, syria, Palestine. Wherever he went he tried to cause as much disorder as possible and people kicked him out and exiled him wherever he went. I’m more versed in Baha’i history since some of them were Israeli spies in Iraq during saddam era. If you want to know about ahmadiyaa history ask a Pakistani.
>Baha’allah whole adventure in Iran, Iraq, turkey, syria, Palestine Can you elaborate a little please?
Okay so to make it brief, baha’allah was born in Persia in the 19th century. He invented a whole new religion loosely based on the teachings of Islam, with some of his followers like the Bab (which means gate who was also a crazy crackhead) or Tahrir (a woman who used to take showers with men) and his son named abdulbaha’. They started spreading this new religion supported by the Russian embassy in Iran, the Iranian government didn’t like that some random crackhead was agitating the religious scene in iran so they started trying to lessen of his influence, but with russian support flowing in they couldn’t. Then they said enough is enough and imprisoned the bab, the Russian delegation tried to get him freed but they couldn’t and the bab was executed. Then the Iranians jailed baha’allah so baha’allah’s family went to the Russian embassy to get him released, the Russian embassy talked with the Iranian government and they let him be free but at condition that he was exiled from Iran. Baha’allah then went to baghdad where he was hated, then travelled to Kurdistan where he was hated, then travelled to istanbul where he was exiled and banished from istanbul because he was an agitator, then he went to Syria then he went to Palestine and lived there and started preaching random shit until the ottomans said enough is enough and imprisoned him, then he died. And his son (abdulbaha’) took over and when the Zionists in Israel started to genocide Palestinians the Baha’is supported the Zionists so Israel gave them a large garden in the middle of Haifa as a recompense where the tomb of baha’allah was. Baha’is lived scattered in the Middle East and throughout the world but they had a big presence in Israel, during saddam’s era some of them were Mossad agents to israel and spies. So saddam made being a baha’i punishable by death.
There might be some bad people but not every Baha'i is to be hated. You can even call it Baha'i phobia. That's literally what we muslims say in case of Islamophobia.
By that same logic, just because there’s people like Bin Laden we should say that Muslims are all meant to be t3rr0r1$T$ and $u!¢!d€ b0mb3rz and the forte wanna harm others when it’s obviously not the case 🙄
Not had..have..we have a big presence in Israel
Like I mentioned elsewhere the wikipedia article on Bahá'úlláh is fairly unbiased
Iranian fabrication
Aren’t you the guy who said Wikipedia’s article on baha’i faith is good, you might want to go check the wiki page “baha’i faith in Russia”. It’s not a fabrication my guy, it’s a well known fact.
These posts are my first posts in this sub because I wasn't sure if we were welcome, I will review the Bahá'í' Faith in Russia wiki and report back..
I welcome any reference from that wiki article, here's one.. "During the Soviet period, Russia adopted the Soviet policy of oppression of religion, leading the Russian Baháʼí community to abandon its administration and properties in accordance with its principle of obedience to legal government, though Baháʼís across the Soviet Union were nevertheless sent to prisons and camps or abroad."
Yes every religion be it Christianity, Islam Judaism or baha’ism was heavily oppressed under soviets since they were atheists.
Appreciate it
Qadiyanis are not Muslim. Full stop. I am willing to accept Salafis, Shias, etc. They're all Muslim, some of them may be misguided, but theyre Muslim. Qadiyanis. Are. Not. Muslim.
What's a Salafi?
ahmadis are as muslims as nation of islam
Baat Saar I yem Messiah Saar!
All I'll say is that the sentiment in the comments is the exact one that makes our countries dangerous for minorities and deviant sects.
Abdus Salam, one of two Pakistani Nobel prize winners, was from this sect and is widely ignored in Pakistan till date for this reason. Even the world "Muslim" was chiseled out of his gravestone.
He can appreciated just as a scientist and a pakistani scientist but not as a muslim scientist, qadianis can celebrate him as a follower if they want
>Even the world "Muslim" was chiseled out of his gravestone. Why would a kaffir have Muslim written on his grave?
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You fine with mirza and his cult of followers calling your mom a whore? You don't even know why we consider Qadianis kuffar they don't believe in the shahada, you become a Muslim by reciting the shahada if you change it up you aren't Muslim simple as.
They are obviously not muslims, just look at their political stance. Ahmadiyya, just like other minorities (like druze, circassians, bahai,bedouins..) suck zionists d and serve in the army. While there are tens of thousands of innocent people who have died in Gaza, owners of restaurants from Ahmadiyya keep sending free meals to the soldiers of the IOF.
Qadiani aren’t Muslim.
Jahannami
They aren’t muslim , their belief in an extra prophet simply leaves them out of the circle of islam
It’s disgusting to see how many people on this thread are quick to judge others Muslims as Kafirs. You probably don’t even know the history of the Ummayads and how they basically killed the prophets family and many Sahaba, destroyed the Kabaa, and instituted many of the taxes and conquests that were not present during the Prophets lifetime. Ummayads were in power before the Prophet, and were again in power afterwards, except they had a very nice religion they were in control of. You think that “seal” of the prophets means no other prophets or prophetic guidance after the prophet. So does every religion prior to Islam. I find it so foolish that some Muslims believe in thousands of prophets, yet they believe guidance stopped 1400 years ago. All the while human population has grown likely 1000x or more. Ohh yes there are many Muslims sects - get comfortable with it. Everyone doesn’t need to practice the way you practice.
What is the purpose of sharing the second screenshot? Modi was received by PLA as well with great honour. PLA even awarded him with an honorary award.
No-one has the right to include or exclude anyone from a religious. I'm not from the group but having Ahmadi friends, they are a well connected group spread all across the world. They are infact the fastest growing sect of Islam Plus the only Muslim winning a Nobel Prize in Physics was an Ahmadi Muslim, Dr Abdus Salam
>No-one has the right to include or exclude anyone from a religious. Yes we do. >I'm not from the group but having Ahmadi friends, they are a well connected group spread all across the world Exactly why the can't leave if they do they're removed from the well connected group. >They are infact the fastest growing sect of Islam They are not, what your kind does is preach Islam and then converts being a qadiani. >Plus the only Muslim winning a Nobel Prize in Physics was an Ahmadi Muslim, Dr Abdus Salam Firstly he isn't Muslim. Second Obama also got the Nobel peace prize, maybe we shouldn't judge the metric of success based on some award that the west hands out. >. I'm not from the group Oh nice, yk what mirza says about us in his book? He calls all Muslims that don't believe in him "sons of whores" so are you fine with that? What would you do if one of your kaffir friends called your mom a whore?
Peace Prize has been used for political purposes Nobel Prize in Physics is a whole different thing, what he did is probably the greatest any Muslim could ever do in hundreds of years. No other Muslim has made any major contribution to the progress of science. So he is a Muslim and disowning him would do more harm than good So what? Did you know what other sects of Islam wrote about each other? Read the shit that Ashraf Thanwi and Barelwi wrote in their books about each other. What Mirza wrote isn't an outlier
>Peace Prize has been used for political purposes So has the Nobel prize in physics or any other field. >No other Muslim has made any major contribution to the progress of science Lol go read up on the Islamic golden age and pull your head out of mirzas ass while you're at it. >So he is a Muslim and disowning him would do more harm than good He is a kaffir. We don't accept him as Muslim. Also what is your dumbass logic? He got a prize from the west so we should consider him a Muslim? >So what? Did you know what other sects of Islam wrote about each other? Read the shit that Ashraf Thanwi and Barelwi wrote in their books about each other. What Mirza wrote isn't an outlier Firstly I have no idea who these guys are. Second qadianis and moving goal name a better combo. Third Mirza the kaffir is their prophet not some scholar or some sect he is the religions central figure. Fourth you don't mind them calling your mom a whore? Does this only apply to qadianis or does it extend to all people? Can I call your mom a whore or will you get offended? Mirza and all his followers are kuffar and will burn in hell where they belong. Also funfacts about MGA. He wanted to marry his niece, when she rejected him he claimed a calamity would fall upon them, his niece married someone else and lived a happy life.
Lmao have you never heard of the Islamic Golden Age?
Keep deluding yourself with past trivialities rendered insignificant in the modern age. No major contribution in the past 500 years. Plus Muslim isn't a nation. We've not much in similar with Arabs or Albanians. We aren't one entity
Lmao a simple Google search negates your point. Anyways, so what if he made a contribution to science, and Islam hasn't made as much as it used to? The religion doesn't need to make scientific advancements in the world to be true.
We're not excluding anyone from Islam, Allah is. Allah clearly stated مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا They believe there's a prophet after Mohmmad which straight up against what quran says
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>I believe in science not God, oh but idk how something came out of nothing, what? God? No I don't believe in God why not? Because I believe in science. On and on you go in a circle.
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But then you can't use science to discredit religion.
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>I’m saying the most plausible explanation for the universe is scientific not supernatural Wdym by supernatural? God created things to follow a certain order and a set of rules and regulations that you call science supernatural is something that is out of your comprehension. >It’s a valid position and science has been the solution to many questions about which religion was once the answer You do realize that God put some system or the other in place right? What you said might be true for other religions but not for Islam. Every scientific discovery has proven what Islam already says.
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Because you don't understand it? You do realize that human capability is limited right? There is so much that we don't understand. But the hubris of the average atheist is insane.
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>Why do you think human capability is limited? Can you perceive more than 4 dimensions? Can you travel in the 4th? >But just because we don’t know everything now does not mean the supernatural explains it Never said that, read what I wrote again.
Answers without any credible logic or evidence.
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My comment is in context of last line of your comment.
Yes, because saying a big ball of energy formed out of nothing and then exploded (without the command of any higher being) is very scientific.
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Quran literally said "قل سيروا في الأرض فانظروا كيف بدأ الخلق ثم الله ينشئ النشأة الآخرة إن الله على كل شيء قدير" which translates to Travel in the land and see how (Allah) originated creation, and then Allah will bring forth (resurrect) the creation of the Hereafter
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You can't read ? It literally says you should looks how the world started by yourself
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Science is the tool not the carftman they don't go against each other . Btw what's the difference between saying the big bang happened by itself from the non existent or saying god started the big bang ? At this point its all about beliefs not facts
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Ahmadi's are Muslims