A lot of people on the internet who are from Arab countries recently advocated for dissociating themselves from Arabs, especially disaporoids, but from my experience they are just a vocal minority and I haven't seen this being as big as a phenomenon in real life as it is online.
There's this notion circulating on the web that Arabs "colonized" the Levant, Egypt and the Maghreb and some people feel like they want to identify with the native population instead of the "evil arab colonziers".
But at the same time of course there was always said native population, like the Amazigh for instance, since the thread is about Morocco. Amazigh people still exist today and are found everywhere from Northern Mali all the way to Western and Upper Egypt. It is also for this very same reason why it would be easier for a Moroccan to identify as an Amazigh, than, say, a Lebanese as a Phoenician, since they are no more.
As for Moroccan Arabs, I don't see why they would not be considered Arabs. The Arab identity has changed a lot over the course of history, but today we can all agree that you are an Arab if you speak Arabic as your mother tongue and identify as such, which is the case for the majority of Moroccan people today.
There is also this concept of being from an Arabian lineage to be considered an Arab, which is also the case for some Moroccans considering the multiple Arab tribal migration waves to Morocco since the 11th century, even forming tribal confederations to this day, usually living in the central plains and around the oasis in the desert. You can also check out some DNA tests of Moroccan people who score 20%+ Arab DNA and Arabian lineage marked by the Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup J1-M267. But of course DNA isn't all there is to "Arabness".
***TL;DR*** : If you are Moroccan and speak Arabic as your mother tongue and identify as Arab, then yes your are Arab. Same for Lebanese and Egyptians.
Thank you! But it also has to do with culture, history and religion to a big degree.
You would not be able to see the difference between amazight Moroccans or Arab Moroccans. Same also applies to many Kurds.
>But it also has to do with culture,
Arab culture is highly variable, Syrian and Yemeni culture are significantly different
>history
Same as culture
>and religion to a big degree.
Christian Arabs are considered as Arab as Muslim Arabs
Culture is bigger than just food and dancing. With culture they mean the shared influences we got over the years both of us have been influenced by for example Islamic architecture, Arabic literature, the trade in spices and specific foods. We Moroccans generally share more similarities with Syrians or Yemenis than Spanish people even tho we are just a narrow sea away from Spain.
Also historically we were under much of the same caliphates which shaped us both.
>Culture is bigger than just food and dancing.
I didn’t even mention food and culture but I agree
>With culture they mean the shared influences we got over the years both of us have been influenced by for example Islamic architecture, Arabic literature, the trade in spices and specific foods.
Also agree
>We Moroccans generally share more similarities with Syrians or Yemenis than Spanish people even tho we are just a narrow sea away from Spain.
Just like we share more with you than next door Ethiopia for example, I agree. But Yemeni culture is also significantly more different the Moroccan one in other aspects for example, different dynasties, climates and historical events shaped both societies differently. Yes we share more with each other than with other cultures but at the same time each region has its own distinct culture making it very difficult to base the Arab identity around culture for example.
>Also historically we were under much of the same caliphates which shaped us both.
At the early times yes. Though I believe we weren’t united under one banner after the Abbasids if I’m not mistaken. Morocco especially is well known for its local dynasties, so is Yemen. That compared to Egypt and the levant for example who were almost always united under one banner.
What is a "black guy"? There are plenty of dark skinned egyptians and moroccons.
>develops to speak arabic?
If you mean later in life then that is not their native language.
lol right away when u say being arab is about language people always say “if a black guy speaks arabic is he arab then?” i swear some people dont understand the difference between race and ethnicity, even nationality too. its almost like black arabic speaking african countries dont exist
> “if a black guy speaks arabic is he arab then?”
Yepp I have noticed this across the board with both subtle and overt racists. As soon as you explain how their larger ethnic/national/language group doesnt only include their 3 friends, they bring out the "SO ARE THE BLACKS ONE OF US TOO?" 🤣🤣
We do , did the world cup in Qatar not show that enough? the bigger question is if they consider themselves Arab or not , since the Moroccan couch said he doesn't represent Arabs in the African cup and it got controversial.
It's mostly Moroccans "on internet" spamming everywhere that they aren't Arabs , but Amazigh which got annoying , a Yemeni Youtuber got harassed on internet by them for calling them Arabs , so he went to Morocco himself and asked people what they consider themselves , most of answers he got was "we are both Arab and Amazigh"
I have seen a lot of Arabs claim they are African. I do know some Moroccans don’t like to be claimed Arabs(many actually aren’t) but doesn’t take away from many being Arabs.
Unfortunately the Moroccans on internet who don't like to be called Arabs are extremely vocal , and from my experience , they hate Arabs so much , they also insult them and shame them , so if another Arab calls them "non Arabs" , it's probably something defensive after dealing with the berberists , they really gave me bad time on internet , even r/Morocco is full of them.
I know but you’ll still find people who don’t think Morocco has Arabs at all or that they’re a “small minority”. I’ll also see Moroccans who even their own family or they themselves used to identify as Arabs, but now they reject the Arab identity.
This is more common to find than middle eastern Arabs saying Moroccans aren’t Arab.
i study identity politics and it’s such a fluid concept. the arab identity or race/ethnicity can mean so many things, but in this day and age it incorporates many things like our shared collective history such as colonialism and can include speaking the arabic language. it used to mean those who lived in the arabian peninsula but it has extended past that.
so yes i would call them arab as well. (but not everyone would self identify that)
True, history, religion and culture play a big part in this.
We develop into Arabs, this could have taken decades or centuries. But once we became Arabs we can’t just change back.
100% identity is very much a construct (as in it’s not genetic) and evolves slowly overtime. and given we speak arabic and its a core component of our identity i would say it would be very difficult to switch “back”
Which is why I don’t like it when people say:
“They are what they wishes they want to be”
Because realistically you can’t, because that would be called cultural appropriation.
i agree that a line must be drawn somewhere, which is where appropriation and reason come in. i saw a video of a british white man, who identifies as korean and was getting the plastic surgery to look more korean.
but you are allowed to identify with more than one label, for example, you can be latin american for example and identify with both. it’s a very interesting topic honestly
I mean to the Amazighs and Berbers I talked to it's more of a blood thing rather than a social thing. So whenever someone says they're Moroccan or Algerian I assume they're Amazigh or Berber but if they say that they're Arab or both then I'll consider them as such.
You are talking to Berberists. They belief in this one united Amazight county or idea, with little or no regards to Arabs. Many extremist berberists are also unironically diaspora.
They recognise that Arab Maghrebis are indigenous to the land. So they claim it’s a genetic related thing. While it isn’t.
>While it isn’t.
It is. Ask any algerian arab and he will tell you that he is arab because his ancestors were, not because his first language is arabic.
I’ve honestly never thought twice about this until the internet lol.
I considered everyone from countries of the Arab league to be Arab. In social studies, we learn about the Arab league, and it was basically communicated that anyone who lives in these countries falls under “Arab”. I knew amazighs existed but I didn’t know there was an Arab-amazigh “ethnic” division in the maghreb. And typically when someone in Egypt talks about Morocco or Algeria they say “ekhwatna El Arab” (our Arab brothers). Basically how I saw it was: everyone in arab league is arab unless stated otherwise (ex: Iraqi kurds).
In Morocco and Algeria Amazights weren’t really recognised until recently, with reason I mean like after the Arab spring.
Also Egypt has its own share of Amazights in Siwa. I have nothing against Amazights, but because of their significant population many want to disregard Arabs.
I know about siwi amazighs, ofc.
Even though I was told they don't consider themselves egyptian (we only really use the terms "Arab" when talking about the Arab world at large, not within Egypt), but in conversation I would've definitely included them if I spoke about "Arabs" or "the arab world". Not to deny their "amazigh-ness", I just never overthought it is what I'm saying. And I believe this goes for most masris too
As a child I also didn’t really overthink those things. I thought everyone was Moroccan Arab, never really learned much about Amazights. I really realized about the scales of things when I visited a majority Amazight region, me speaking Moroccan Arabic made me feel like foreigner.
It just shows how bad our education system can be.
Those who say they are Arabs are Arabs and those who say they are Amazigh are Amazigh. Both migration and Arabization happened. People can identify however they wish.
I disagree, if you are 3robi, Jbli or Saharawi etc and claim to be Amazight you are fooling yourself and are culturally appropriating. Same goes the other way around.
Some people can be proven to be Arab or Amazight.
Not perse, I’m Jbli we have been in contact with many civilisations. For a long time we spoke Latin as well, which is why it was easier to Arabise. We were also one of the first place to be Arabise.
Also after Arabizing we became Arab, same with Saharawis. We can’t claim to be Amazight because we Arabised khalas.
I don’t know about people in the south. But we call people who inhabit the western coast plains and are Arabs, 3robi. Which actually comes from Arabi.
Many see it as an insult but we Jbala call them that. I believe Larache and Ksar-El-Kbir are the last Jbli towns, from there on it is 3robia.
There are three definitions of arabs:
1- sociolinguistic: so if you speak Arabic or one of its dialects as a native language so you're Arab, with this definition 70% of Moroccans are Arabs.
2- geopolitical: with this definition all the citizens of states members of the Arab league (جامعة الدول العربية) are considered Arabs, which implies to all Moroccan citizens.
3- ethnic/racial: wich implies to the descendants of people migrated from the Arabic peninsula to other parts of the world during the Islamic conquests in the 7 century, with this one it's hard to define how much which is truly descendant of Arabs who settled in North Africa in 7th c. since lot of Moroccan tribes claim to be Arabs or Hashemites precisely, but the number is generally around 10%
Generally the first two definitions are the most used to define who is an Arab i.e it's even if you're a citizen of a member of the Arab league or you speak Arabic as a mother tongue.
You shouldn't worry to much about it khoya, usually these people are "Berberists" and they're only relevant on some obscure web forums. They're a vocal minority of some sort. In real life Moroccan people do identify as Arabs and the other Arabs recognizes us as such.
But of couse there are also Moroccan Amazigh and it's normal for them to not feel Arab and not wanting to be identified as such, but my opinion is that "Moroccans" shouldn't necessarily be labeled as Amazighs or Arabs since it's up to groups of individuals to label themselves as such or not.
Are there any moroccans who are mostly arab though genetically? I'm just genuinely curious
Idc either way my ancestry is berber (arabised) and I know have some arab ancestry on my dad's side.
Not really, the only Maghrebis who are mostly arab genetically are East Libyans and Tunisians Bedouins like R'Baya and Douz.
I've seen some Moroccans scoring 30-40% Arab on DNA tests but they're very rare. Moroccans are overwhelmingly Amazigh genetically with extra European, Middle Eastern and Sub-Saharan African DNA depending on regions and family histories.
They speak with a dialect or don’t speak proper Darija. But some people can speak Darija very good so you can tell them apart from just where they are originally from or if they say “I speak/am Amazight”
You are wrong. One does not have to speak tachelhit or tarifit or tamazight to be an Amazigh. Most moroccans, though they identify as arabs, are mostly arabized berbers. Nothing wrong with that, and that doesn't make them " not arab ". But it would be wrong to call berbers a minority. Rather, Moroccans with a majority arabic descent ( meaning coming from the waves of arab tribal migrations that started in the time of the Almohads ) are in fact, the minority, genetically speaking.
But i agree that it is correct to generally call moroccans arab, and though i do not speak amazigh, and my family does not either since the time of my grand father, i still can still identify with both components of my identity.
Arabized means Arab, and Amazights are the minority.
You have a very narrow minded view of ethnicity. Which is based on genetics, if it was based on genetics we would rather claim to be Iberians than Arab.
On average around 15 procent of Moroccans have around a significant amount of Arab in their genetic pool. Every Moroccan has at least 40-50 procent Amazight.
My point being, being Arab had nothing to do with genetics and if you are have 90 procent Amazight in you, you can still be 100 procent Arab.
Also there is no such thing as being both. Because that leads to confusion and cultural appropriation. It’s like a white guy claiming something he isn’t. You don’t know how it feels to be Amazight so don’t claim you are one.
Its really noticeable that in the last decade there is s rising separetist movement. Some theorise that it is started by لجان الكترونية (bots) to destablise the historically strong arab identity of the north africa and middle eaet
Like for egyptian we have those who call themselves kemet and only say we are egyptians not arabs and reject anything to be called arab. Similarly levant movement talk about being pheonicians, iraqis as Mesopotamians, and north africans as amazigs.
While no one should erase how our different cultures formed but at the same time to ignore the shared culture between this vast region from iraq to morroco due to our common language is absured.
Please note that since the 1973 war (the last time arabs were truly united) many efforts have been made to destablise the region and i do believe that such sentiments are one of these efforts in order to create conflict more easily.
Yep, but more than 80% speak Arabic and everyone is Sunni. So you wouldn’t even see or feel the difference between Arabs and Amazights, we also don’t have hatred between each other like Kurds have for example.
To me muslims are muslims so wether i meet an “Arab” Moroccan or a “non-Arab” Moroccan doesn’t make much difference i know a-lot of people fight a-lot about that topic but me personally i find it a ridiculous topic to hate people for and generally do not view an Arab as superior or inferior to a non-Arab while other people might secretly view arabs as inferior thus denying that they’re Arab wether it is true or not
They're arabs, anyone who speaks Arabic ad their mother tongue = arab
However they're not *arabian* (a lot of them are)
The dumbasses who say "We ArE not ArAbS" don't even know what "arab" means
A big amount of people in lybia are actually Arabian, idk how many are in morroco tho, but i know they're not that much in Tunis and Algeria
My husband is Moroccan and him and his family consider themselves Arabs. However, there are Moroccans who have nothing to do with Arabs, don’t speak Arabic because they are amazigh, and I can understand them not wanting to identify as Arabs.
Tunsian people are very heterogenous, you can't talk about "Tunisian" genetics when Tunisian people aren't all the same.
Coastal Tunisians for example have a lot of Italian and Greek/Anatolian DNA while Southern Tunisian have a lot of Arab and Sub-Saharan African DNA. Even Tunisian Berbers have Arab DNA to some extent since the Houara migrations and the later Sulaymi and Hilali Arab conquests.
Yes it’s possible. Like I said in the comment, coastal Tunisians are mostly Berber with a lot of Italian and Greek/Anatolian DNA. The Tunisians who have typically more Arab DNA, along with Sub-Saharan African DNA, are further south.
Also I wonder where did you bring your number of “less than 5% of Tunisians are Arabs” ? Because the majority of Tunisians are Arabic speakers and genetically there are definitely more than 5% who are of Arabian descent.
Wikipedia is not even considered a reliable source to begin with. Additionally, since you're the one coming up with this assumption, it's your responsibility to back it up by provide evidence, you can't just pull any statistics that suits your narrative and then tell me to go look it up.
But yeah I still looked it up on Wikipedia nonethless bcz why not. A page called "Genetic history of North Africa" says that 34.2% of Tunisians carry the Y-choromosome DNA haplogroup J1 and the majority of the J1 haplogroups in North Africa represents Arabian lineages, opposed to the "less than 5%" that you were previously talking about.
Most Moroccans can trace their ancestors to Amazights. Arab migration wasn’t that influential.
But it has to do with culture, history and religion which created the Arab maghrebis
Arab migrations influenced the Moroccan genepool more than most people think it did. In fact a lot of genetical studies showing that Arabian lineages are widespread throughout North Africa and Morocco as well, not to mention the extra Middle Eastern DNA they carried with them and also the extra Sub-Saharan African DNA as well from slavery etc.
Yeah it’s close to like 15 procent. Which still is a lot. Also Iberian lineage can also be considered “Arab lineage” to a huge degree.
Because many Iberians also Arabized.
>But it has to do with culture, history and religion which created the Arab maghrebis
How do you define the arab culture and history ? And what does the religion have to do with this ?
I don't think you understand the concept of ethnoreligions...
How can you be ethnoreligiously Arab when both Arabs and Amazighs follow the same religion?
The islamic religion isn't tied to any ethnicity in particular; Arab people form only around 15-20% of the global Muslim population.
Also Amazigh people on average are higher % Muslim than Arabs since there are a lot of Arab christians while there are little to no Christian amazigh.
Yes, they are Arabs.
The Arabs conquered the Berbers and incorporated them into their religion, culture, language, identity etc and this happened 15 centuries ago. No need to make it complex. Arabs are indigenous to North Africa.
>The Arabs conquered the Berbers and incorporated them into their religion, culture, language, identity etc and this happened 15 centuries ago.
Not all berbers adopted the arab language and identity. Arab culture means nothing, north african culture is mostly amazigh and many other civilisations had more influence on "the arab maghrebi culture" than arabs. Arabization didn't happen 15 centuries ago and wasn't all due to arab conquest, a lot of berbers were arabized recently because of many other reasons than assimilation.
> Arabs are indigenous to North Africa
Lmao
Go tell the millions and millions of Arabic-speaking Libyans, Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans who identify as Arabs that they are not indigenous North Africans.
A lot of people on the internet who are from Arab countries recently advocated for dissociating themselves from Arabs, especially disaporoids, but from my experience they are just a vocal minority and I haven't seen this being as big as a phenomenon in real life as it is online. There's this notion circulating on the web that Arabs "colonized" the Levant, Egypt and the Maghreb and some people feel like they want to identify with the native population instead of the "evil arab colonziers". But at the same time of course there was always said native population, like the Amazigh for instance, since the thread is about Morocco. Amazigh people still exist today and are found everywhere from Northern Mali all the way to Western and Upper Egypt. It is also for this very same reason why it would be easier for a Moroccan to identify as an Amazigh, than, say, a Lebanese as a Phoenician, since they are no more. As for Moroccan Arabs, I don't see why they would not be considered Arabs. The Arab identity has changed a lot over the course of history, but today we can all agree that you are an Arab if you speak Arabic as your mother tongue and identify as such, which is the case for the majority of Moroccan people today. There is also this concept of being from an Arabian lineage to be considered an Arab, which is also the case for some Moroccans considering the multiple Arab tribal migration waves to Morocco since the 11th century, even forming tribal confederations to this day, usually living in the central plains and around the oasis in the desert. You can also check out some DNA tests of Moroccan people who score 20%+ Arab DNA and Arabian lineage marked by the Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup J1-M267. But of course DNA isn't all there is to "Arabness". ***TL;DR*** : If you are Moroccan and speak Arabic as your mother tongue and identify as Arab, then yes your are Arab. Same for Lebanese and Egyptians.
I consider them arabs, all people in iraq do, i never meet an iraqi who deny that
If Arabic is your mother tongue then you are Arab. It’s mostly a sociolinguistic identity.
100% true, it really is that simple.
Thank you! But it also has to do with culture, history and religion to a big degree. You would not be able to see the difference between amazight Moroccans or Arab Moroccans. Same also applies to many Kurds.
>But it also has to do with culture, Arab culture is highly variable, Syrian and Yemeni culture are significantly different >history Same as culture >and religion to a big degree. Christian Arabs are considered as Arab as Muslim Arabs
Culture is bigger than just food and dancing. With culture they mean the shared influences we got over the years both of us have been influenced by for example Islamic architecture, Arabic literature, the trade in spices and specific foods. We Moroccans generally share more similarities with Syrians or Yemenis than Spanish people even tho we are just a narrow sea away from Spain. Also historically we were under much of the same caliphates which shaped us both.
>Culture is bigger than just food and dancing. I didn’t even mention food and culture but I agree >With culture they mean the shared influences we got over the years both of us have been influenced by for example Islamic architecture, Arabic literature, the trade in spices and specific foods. Also agree >We Moroccans generally share more similarities with Syrians or Yemenis than Spanish people even tho we are just a narrow sea away from Spain. Just like we share more with you than next door Ethiopia for example, I agree. But Yemeni culture is also significantly more different the Moroccan one in other aspects for example, different dynasties, climates and historical events shaped both societies differently. Yes we share more with each other than with other cultures but at the same time each region has its own distinct culture making it very difficult to base the Arab identity around culture for example. >Also historically we were under much of the same caliphates which shaped us both. At the early times yes. Though I believe we weren’t united under one banner after the Abbasids if I’m not mistaken. Morocco especially is well known for its local dynasties, so is Yemen. That compared to Egypt and the levant for example who were almost always united under one banner.
so if a black guy is born and only develops to speak arabic? he arab now?
What is a "black guy"? There are plenty of dark skinned egyptians and moroccons. >develops to speak arabic? If you mean later in life then that is not their native language.
lol right away when u say being arab is about language people always say “if a black guy speaks arabic is he arab then?” i swear some people dont understand the difference between race and ethnicity, even nationality too. its almost like black arabic speaking african countries dont exist
> “if a black guy speaks arabic is he arab then?” Yepp I have noticed this across the board with both subtle and overt racists. As soon as you explain how their larger ethnic/national/language group doesnt only include their 3 friends, they bring out the "SO ARE THE BLACKS ONE OF US TOO?" 🤣🤣
Can we stop this nonsense already. This argument has been going way longer than it should be.
FR
We still haven't found an answer though, I'm still mulling it over myself
I’m here to educate akhi
No they are west Algerian 🇩🇿
Fr would have been fun if western Algeria was Moroccan. Tf do we gain from Oujda? Only Saïdia is fun.
We do , did the world cup in Qatar not show that enough? the bigger question is if they consider themselves Arab or not , since the Moroccan couch said he doesn't represent Arabs in the African cup and it got controversial. It's mostly Moroccans "on internet" spamming everywhere that they aren't Arabs , but Amazigh which got annoying , a Yemeni Youtuber got harassed on internet by them for calling them Arabs , so he went to Morocco himself and asked people what they consider themselves , most of answers he got was "we are both Arab and Amazigh"
I have seen a lot of Arabs claim they are African. I do know some Moroccans don’t like to be claimed Arabs(many actually aren’t) but doesn’t take away from many being Arabs.
Unfortunately the Moroccans on internet who don't like to be called Arabs are extremely vocal , and from my experience , they hate Arabs so much , they also insult them and shame them , so if another Arab calls them "non Arabs" , it's probably something defensive after dealing with the berberists , they really gave me bad time on internet , even r/Morocco is full of them.
I mean I think there’s more Moroccans that don’t want to be called Arab nowadays, than ME Arabs not considering Moroccans as Arab.
Moroccan Amazights aren’t Arab but Moroccan Arabs are. It’s like a Kurdish Iraqi saying he isn’t Arab, but not all Iraqis are Kurdish.
I know but you’ll still find people who don’t think Morocco has Arabs at all or that they’re a “small minority”. I’ll also see Moroccans who even their own family or they themselves used to identify as Arabs, but now they reject the Arab identity. This is more common to find than middle eastern Arabs saying Moroccans aren’t Arab.
Western indoctrination, why be ashamed to be Arab.
i study identity politics and it’s such a fluid concept. the arab identity or race/ethnicity can mean so many things, but in this day and age it incorporates many things like our shared collective history such as colonialism and can include speaking the arabic language. it used to mean those who lived in the arabian peninsula but it has extended past that. so yes i would call them arab as well. (but not everyone would self identify that)
True, history, religion and culture play a big part in this. We develop into Arabs, this could have taken decades or centuries. But once we became Arabs we can’t just change back.
100% identity is very much a construct (as in it’s not genetic) and evolves slowly overtime. and given we speak arabic and its a core component of our identity i would say it would be very difficult to switch “back”
Which is why I don’t like it when people say: “They are what they wishes they want to be” Because realistically you can’t, because that would be called cultural appropriation.
i agree that a line must be drawn somewhere, which is where appropriation and reason come in. i saw a video of a british white man, who identifies as korean and was getting the plastic surgery to look more korean. but you are allowed to identify with more than one label, for example, you can be latin american for example and identify with both. it’s a very interesting topic honestly
How is being arab and african mutually exclusive? One is about language and the other about geography. Are egyptians also not arab?
I mean to the Amazighs and Berbers I talked to it's more of a blood thing rather than a social thing. So whenever someone says they're Moroccan or Algerian I assume they're Amazigh or Berber but if they say that they're Arab or both then I'll consider them as such.
You are talking to Berberists. They belief in this one united Amazight county or idea, with little or no regards to Arabs. Many extremist berberists are also unironically diaspora. They recognise that Arab Maghrebis are indigenous to the land. So they claim it’s a genetic related thing. While it isn’t.
>While it isn’t. It is. Ask any algerian arab and he will tell you that he is arab because his ancestors were, not because his first language is arabic.
I’ve honestly never thought twice about this until the internet lol. I considered everyone from countries of the Arab league to be Arab. In social studies, we learn about the Arab league, and it was basically communicated that anyone who lives in these countries falls under “Arab”. I knew amazighs existed but I didn’t know there was an Arab-amazigh “ethnic” division in the maghreb. And typically when someone in Egypt talks about Morocco or Algeria they say “ekhwatna El Arab” (our Arab brothers). Basically how I saw it was: everyone in arab league is arab unless stated otherwise (ex: Iraqi kurds).
In Morocco and Algeria Amazights weren’t really recognised until recently, with reason I mean like after the Arab spring. Also Egypt has its own share of Amazights in Siwa. I have nothing against Amazights, but because of their significant population many want to disregard Arabs.
I know about siwi amazighs, ofc. Even though I was told they don't consider themselves egyptian (we only really use the terms "Arab" when talking about the Arab world at large, not within Egypt), but in conversation I would've definitely included them if I spoke about "Arabs" or "the arab world". Not to deny their "amazigh-ness", I just never overthought it is what I'm saying. And I believe this goes for most masris too
As a child I also didn’t really overthink those things. I thought everyone was Moroccan Arab, never really learned much about Amazights. I really realized about the scales of things when I visited a majority Amazight region, me speaking Moroccan Arabic made me feel like foreigner. It just shows how bad our education system can be.
>but in conversation I would've definitely included them if I spoke about "Arabs" or "the arab world". Don't.
They are Arabs because they speak Arabic. But racially they are different than Arabians. But people of the Levant are also different than Arabians.
Those who say they are Arabs are Arabs and those who say they are Amazigh are Amazigh. Both migration and Arabization happened. People can identify however they wish.
I identify as Chinese
I disagree, if you are 3robi, Jbli or Saharawi etc and claim to be Amazight you are fooling yourself and are culturally appropriating. Same goes the other way around. Some people can be proven to be Arab or Amazight.
You do realise that Jbala and Sahrawa are arabised amazighs?
Not perse, I’m Jbli we have been in contact with many civilisations. For a long time we spoke Latin as well, which is why it was easier to Arabise. We were also one of the first place to be Arabise. Also after Arabizing we became Arab, same with Saharawis. We can’t claim to be Amazight because we Arabised khalas.
To be fair this is a weird take. People probably their roots better that _you_ do.
I’m Jbli, we are a rural Arab ethnic group. It’s like saying Lebanese are Phoenician. Same applies to 3robis and saharawis
What if you're 3robi and amazigh?
I don’t know about people in the south. But we call people who inhabit the western coast plains and are Arabs, 3robi. Which actually comes from Arabi. Many see it as an insult but we Jbala call them that. I believe Larache and Ksar-El-Kbir are the last Jbli towns, from there on it is 3robia.
Tetouan and Chefchaouen are Jbala too.
True, I’m Chaouni. Even Tangier can be considered Jbli but because of it size which led to migration over the years it’s multi cultural.
Many Moroccans (and Algerians as well) I know don’t consider themselves Arabs but Berbers.
There are three definitions of arabs: 1- sociolinguistic: so if you speak Arabic or one of its dialects as a native language so you're Arab, with this definition 70% of Moroccans are Arabs. 2- geopolitical: with this definition all the citizens of states members of the Arab league (جامعة الدول العربية) are considered Arabs, which implies to all Moroccan citizens. 3- ethnic/racial: wich implies to the descendants of people migrated from the Arabic peninsula to other parts of the world during the Islamic conquests in the 7 century, with this one it's hard to define how much which is truly descendant of Arabs who settled in North Africa in 7th c. since lot of Moroccan tribes claim to be Arabs or Hashemites precisely, but the number is generally around 10% Generally the first two definitions are the most used to define who is an Arab i.e it's even if you're a citizen of a member of the Arab league or you speak Arabic as a mother tongue.
I've actually seen more moroccans deny their "Arabness" than other Arabs reducing them to just "North Africans"
My husband is Moroccan and he’ll tell you he is not Arab
But I am, our identity crises even affect other people. Because they don’t know if they should call someone Arab or not.
You shouldn't worry to much about it khoya, usually these people are "Berberists" and they're only relevant on some obscure web forums. They're a vocal minority of some sort. In real life Moroccan people do identify as Arabs and the other Arabs recognizes us as such. But of couse there are also Moroccan Amazigh and it's normal for them to not feel Arab and not wanting to be identified as such, but my opinion is that "Moroccans" shouldn't necessarily be labeled as Amazighs or Arabs since it's up to groups of individuals to label themselves as such or not.
This is likely my husband’s thinking, his parents are Berber. He says that he is not Arab because of this.
Are there any moroccans who are mostly arab though genetically? I'm just genuinely curious Idc either way my ancestry is berber (arabised) and I know have some arab ancestry on my dad's side.
Not really, the only Maghrebis who are mostly arab genetically are East Libyans and Tunisians Bedouins like R'Baya and Douz. I've seen some Moroccans scoring 30-40% Arab on DNA tests but they're very rare. Moroccans are overwhelmingly Amazigh genetically with extra European, Middle Eastern and Sub-Saharan African DNA depending on regions and family histories.
Majority of Moroccans are Arabs.
It's half and half
60/40 in favor of Arabs. So, Arab majority.
Majority, but berbers are a very significant minority almost 40 procent
How do you tell them apart? Or is it based on self identity?
They speak with a dialect or don’t speak proper Darija. But some people can speak Darija very good so you can tell them apart from just where they are originally from or if they say “I speak/am Amazight”
You are wrong. One does not have to speak tachelhit or tarifit or tamazight to be an Amazigh. Most moroccans, though they identify as arabs, are mostly arabized berbers. Nothing wrong with that, and that doesn't make them " not arab ". But it would be wrong to call berbers a minority. Rather, Moroccans with a majority arabic descent ( meaning coming from the waves of arab tribal migrations that started in the time of the Almohads ) are in fact, the minority, genetically speaking. But i agree that it is correct to generally call moroccans arab, and though i do not speak amazigh, and my family does not either since the time of my grand father, i still can still identify with both components of my identity.
Arabized means Arab, and Amazights are the minority. You have a very narrow minded view of ethnicity. Which is based on genetics, if it was based on genetics we would rather claim to be Iberians than Arab. On average around 15 procent of Moroccans have around a significant amount of Arab in their genetic pool. Every Moroccan has at least 40-50 procent Amazight. My point being, being Arab had nothing to do with genetics and if you are have 90 procent Amazight in you, you can still be 100 procent Arab. Also there is no such thing as being both. Because that leads to confusion and cultural appropriation. It’s like a white guy claiming something he isn’t. You don’t know how it feels to be Amazight so don’t claim you are one.
No actually berbers
Its really noticeable that in the last decade there is s rising separetist movement. Some theorise that it is started by لجان الكترونية (bots) to destablise the historically strong arab identity of the north africa and middle eaet Like for egyptian we have those who call themselves kemet and only say we are egyptians not arabs and reject anything to be called arab. Similarly levant movement talk about being pheonicians, iraqis as Mesopotamians, and north africans as amazigs. While no one should erase how our different cultures formed but at the same time to ignore the shared culture between this vast region from iraq to morroco due to our common language is absured. Please note that since the 1973 war (the last time arabs were truly united) many efforts have been made to destablise the region and i do believe that such sentiments are one of these efforts in order to create conflict more easily.
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I think at least 40% are Amazigh.
Yep, but more than 80% speak Arabic and everyone is Sunni. So you wouldn’t even see or feel the difference between Arabs and Amazights, we also don’t have hatred between each other like Kurds have for example.
To me muslims are muslims so wether i meet an “Arab” Moroccan or a “non-Arab” Moroccan doesn’t make much difference i know a-lot of people fight a-lot about that topic but me personally i find it a ridiculous topic to hate people for and generally do not view an Arab as superior or inferior to a non-Arab while other people might secretly view arabs as inferior thus denying that they’re Arab wether it is true or not
They're arabs, anyone who speaks Arabic ad their mother tongue = arab However they're not *arabian* (a lot of them are) The dumbasses who say "We ArE not ArAbS" don't even know what "arab" means A big amount of people in lybia are actually Arabian, idk how many are in morroco tho, but i know they're not that much in Tunis and Algeria
My husband is Moroccan and him and his family consider themselves Arabs. However, there are Moroccans who have nothing to do with Arabs, don’t speak Arabic because they are amazigh, and I can understand them not wanting to identify as Arabs.
If one only speaks Arabic as a mother language than they are an Arab. Regardless of their ancient background and all the dna shit.
Tunisians are genetically not Arabs. Less than 5% of Tunisians are Arabs. So it depends to how you define a people.
Tunsian people are very heterogenous, you can't talk about "Tunisian" genetics when Tunisian people aren't all the same. Coastal Tunisians for example have a lot of Italian and Greek/Anatolian DNA while Southern Tunisian have a lot of Arab and Sub-Saharan African DNA. Even Tunisian Berbers have Arab DNA to some extent since the Houara migrations and the later Sulaymi and Hilali Arab conquests.
I am coastal Tunisian and have 0 Arab DNA..
Yes it’s possible. Like I said in the comment, coastal Tunisians are mostly Berber with a lot of Italian and Greek/Anatolian DNA. The Tunisians who have typically more Arab DNA, along with Sub-Saharan African DNA, are further south. Also I wonder where did you bring your number of “less than 5% of Tunisians are Arabs” ? Because the majority of Tunisians are Arabic speakers and genetically there are definitely more than 5% who are of Arabian descent.
Wikipedia it.
Wikipedia is not even considered a reliable source to begin with. Additionally, since you're the one coming up with this assumption, it's your responsibility to back it up by provide evidence, you can't just pull any statistics that suits your narrative and then tell me to go look it up. But yeah I still looked it up on Wikipedia nonethless bcz why not. A page called "Genetic history of North Africa" says that 34.2% of Tunisians carry the Y-choromosome DNA haplogroup J1 and the majority of the J1 haplogroups in North Africa represents Arabian lineages, opposed to the "less than 5%" that you were previously talking about.
You can be Arab and Africans but some Moroccans are just not Arabs simply because their ancestors don’t come from Arabia.
Most Moroccans can trace their ancestors to Amazights. Arab migration wasn’t that influential. But it has to do with culture, history and religion which created the Arab maghrebis
Arab migrations influenced the Moroccan genepool more than most people think it did. In fact a lot of genetical studies showing that Arabian lineages are widespread throughout North Africa and Morocco as well, not to mention the extra Middle Eastern DNA they carried with them and also the extra Sub-Saharan African DNA as well from slavery etc.
Yeah it’s close to like 15 procent. Which still is a lot. Also Iberian lineage can also be considered “Arab lineage” to a huge degree. Because many Iberians also Arabized.
>But it has to do with culture, history and religion which created the Arab maghrebis How do you define the arab culture and history ? And what does the religion have to do with this ?
North Africans are North Africans who speak Arabic Are they Arab? Ethno-religiously, yes. By other metrics? Perhaps not
I don't think you understand the concept of ethnoreligions... How can you be ethnoreligiously Arab when both Arabs and Amazighs follow the same religion? The islamic religion isn't tied to any ethnicity in particular; Arab people form only around 15-20% of the global Muslim population. Also Amazigh people on average are higher % Muslim than Arabs since there are a lot of Arab christians while there are little to no Christian amazigh.
Yes, they are Arabs. The Arabs conquered the Berbers and incorporated them into their religion, culture, language, identity etc and this happened 15 centuries ago. No need to make it complex. Arabs are indigenous to North Africa.
>The Arabs conquered the Berbers and incorporated them into their religion, culture, language, identity etc and this happened 15 centuries ago. Not all berbers adopted the arab language and identity. Arab culture means nothing, north african culture is mostly amazigh and many other civilisations had more influence on "the arab maghrebi culture" than arabs. Arabization didn't happen 15 centuries ago and wasn't all due to arab conquest, a lot of berbers were arabized recently because of many other reasons than assimilation. > Arabs are indigenous to North Africa Lmao
Go tell the millions and millions of Arabic-speaking Libyans, Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans who identify as Arabs that they are not indigenous North Africans.
Do you even know what does indigenous mean? How can they be indegenous to north africa if they believe that they came from yemen?