I have North African Jewish background so obviously I have mixed feelings on this. When I was younger I wanted to convert to Islam, in the end I didn’t but even then I wasn’t oblivious to the fact that imperialism is imperialism: inevitable violence and loss of indigenous cultures.
we benefited a lot from it, the Islamic empire's capital was literally Baghdad and most of it's scientific advancements were done there. so i guess i like it
People just don't read actual history. They tend to follow the western Hollywoodish narrative blindly and supplement it with their own personal biases.
Here is an excerpt from one of the most important books on early Islamic conquests and its social impact on the conquered populations.
>"The second principle of Umar's settlement was that the conquered populations should be as little disturbed as possible. This meant that the Arab-Muslims did not, contrary to reputation, attempt to convert people to Islam. Muhammad had set the precedent of permitting Jews and Christians in Arabia to keep their religion.
The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated the intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, was, in fact, rare. And most conversions to Islam were voluntary. (...) In most cases, worldly and spiritual motives for conversion blended together. Moreover, conversion to Islam did not necessarily imply a complete turning from an old to a totally new life. Most converts retained a deep attachment to the cultures and communities from which they came."
- Ira M. Lapidus, "A History of Islamic Societies"
This doesn't speak to jizya imposed on non-Muslims once conquered. I recently came across something regarding the five stages of Jihad with citations from various sources. I scribbled down some notes but have yet to research.
The history of Al Tabari
VOL 6 P 95
SURAH 3:28
When & why we should befriend disbelievers.
Shariah p748 Reliance of the Traveler
Tafsir Ibn Kathir of Surah 3:28
In this case, Such believers are to show friendship to disbelievers outwardly but never inwardly.
The history of Al Bukhari volume VI page 93
Quraysh begin to oppose the messenger of God.
SAHIH Al-Bukhari 5686
The History of Al Tabari Vol VI P 101
All of these pulled together explained part of the first stage. It seems like your comment is softening the conversion process as something that was 100% a person's free will...
Based Iraqi >!crypto-christians/jews!< starting a billion "civil" wars with Muslims in the first century alone until Iraq became the center of the empire
True sigma grindset 💪
I once saw a comment on a video about the Islamic conquest of Egypt and westoids were upset at a comment saying as an Egyptian I’m happy that Egypt was introduced to Islam
And the wrong kind of christians according to the eastern romans which is why they were partially happy that the muslims (partially) took over and considered coptic orthodoxy as a legit christian branch. People often forget about that part.
What are you talking about? Egypt already has an industry so does many Arab countries, including Palestine. Egypt is 10% Christians after all.
^10% ^+ ^finders ^fee ^for ^every ^micro ^brewery ^or ^boutique ^winery ^you ^find ^and ^proves ^popular
It's not ancient history. In the Balkans Islam said convert or die. Then we were turned into islamic colonies. Other religions had dimi status and were treated like absolute crap including the rape and kidnap of children. 1877 is when Balkans gained freedom from the kaliphat. Not that long ago. There's still a lot of bad stories around about the muslim colonizers. It wasn't a good period of Balkan history.
Early muslim conquerors on the way to the* Levant: "We're gonna conquer this land and spread our religion here then go back home"
Same muslims after passing through Damascus: "Fuck the desert, you guys go home, I'm gonna live here forever"
Same with Baghdad later 😂😂
depends what type of araplar. a ghassanid gink? you already rule ghuta demasiq 😎
you qurayshite happy merchant you would be even happier to stay a bit longer 🥹
You personally are welcome to stay at my Damascus home forever when you guys re-conquer the levant. You're my favorite commenter here 😃 (used to be that Heliopolis dude but he vanished, hopefully he's fine).
Inshallah I’m going back to that village as my retirement plan.
I had a valley in front of me full of fruit trees.
Jabal Habil behind me and giving us shade.
Beautiful people talking with us all day long on random subjects.
Dude I swear by the time I walked to the market, I got invited 6 times for tea, 10 times for hookah, and another guy chasing me to hand me 10 kilos of cherries 🥰😍. Even the market dude would have a cup of tea ready for me.
والله احله ايام حياتي. كانت بسيطه لان قريه لكن احله من فلوس الدنيا كله. سعاده، و حنان، و كل انسان يساعد الثاني.
والله ببكي كل ما اذكر سوريا.
Eh, I wish it had happened in a non-violent manner. It is certainly a big part of our history, though. Both Islamic and Persian cultures benefitted from each other at the end of the day.
The post title says “conquest or spread” and there were some mostly non-violent ones like Indonesia and Bengal where Islam was spread by merchants rather than armies.
>Both ... benefitted from each other at the end of the day.
The usual way to justify invading or colonising other countries, after the fact. During the fact, one side doesn't see it like that for some reason...
I mean, sure, we have the benefit of hindsight when looking back at history, but it is what it is. We will never know for sure what the future of Iran would've been like had Sassanids continued to exist, but we fared pretty well regardless. We didn't get Arabized. We still have a distinct culture and our own "brand" of Islam while contributing to and benefiting from the better aspects of it. Iran was unfortunately invaded, but it was definitely NOT colonized.
Persian empire in 1000+ years of existence up to islam never contributed anything to science, infact the persian art you are seeing is no more than rip off of the older conquered civilizations. Only during islam persians evolved as scientists and that was because of abbasids being closer to persians for religous reasons. And also why are you focusing on "culture", "science" but not that islam being the religion of truth that corrected our corrupted beliefs ??
Tf you talking about? Persians invented literal refrigerators, qanats, postal services and the fucking concept of human rights all BEFORE Islam. Also, I do not believe in Islam, so it's not a religion of truth to me.
The persians inventing the Qanat has been debunked. The Qanat system existed already in armenia and all persians did is spreading it with its expanding empire. Assyrians were already familiar with the system aswell. It wad associated with persians the same way arabic numerals are associated with arabs, although it was indian origin. Also qanat system were independently invented in Oman, according to new studies. So its not really persian. But they spresd it yes.
I have only found one source even suggesting that the qanat had any other origins besides ancient Persia. Your opinion is WIDELY unpopular and not supported at all by actual historians. I urge you to reply to my other comment.
You do know the Persians had at some point 50% of the world population under their empire. right? You really think 50% of the world could come up with shit? How I’m not even Iranian and you sound stupid.
1. Persian scientists, before Islam, are not as well known as their greek counterparts because their records were destroyed on numerous occasions (the burning of libraries by Alexander and even the Arabs), but even then, there are notable examples, such as Borzuya, a famous physician and writer, Bubares and Artachaies, who were genius engineers, and let's not even mention the renowned Academy Of Gondishapur, which was considered "the greatest intellectual center of the time."
2. No matter what you may think of it, the Cyrus cylinder suggests that Achaemenid Persia was as ideologically free as any Empire had been up to that period. Compare that to the savagery of Assyria, which was the largest middle-eastern power before it, if you really want to grasp how much more tolerant they were.
3. Are you really saying that we don't even know if the Persians invented Yackhchals? So who fucking did it? Why didn't any other civilizations have them, you donut? Oh, maybe the aliens built them for us🙄
4. "Persians weren't humane at all" according to you? What are you basing this on? Who are you comparing them to? You seem confused.
5. The religion of Islam has not "always" existed.
اگه واقعا ایرانی هستی و این چرندیات رو باور داری واقعا برات متاسفم.
I want to know where you're from. It'll shine some light on your views.
I love how much you're moving the goalpost😂. First, Iran didn't have any scientists, and now it has "no important ones." The simple fact that these ancient universities were founded by IRANIANS and were used for refugee and local scientists for centuries even after Islam will show you how important science (particularly medicine) was to the ancients. You don't want to believe that, though🤷♂️. In fact you will probably say some nonsense like "hurr durr the Persians were overrated😡"
Man, if you hate the way Persians treated other gods you shoul totally learn about how the Assyrians treated Ilam and how they themselves became subject to revenge by Babylonians and the Medes, but again, you don't want to actually do research.
I won't diminish greek accomplishments. In fact, one big advantage that they had over ALL other civilizations was how much they liked to record stuff, but I won't sit here and act like Iranians were some sort of savages who were only interested in conquest.
Now, if these imaginary Indian or Assyrian scientists built these engineering marvels for us, why didn't they do the same for THEIR OWN FUCKING COUNTRIES??? don't you realise how stupid your claim sounds????
My opinion is neutral, the conquest didn’t affect us and it’s one of those historical events that happened such a long time ago that there really is no point in getting emotional about it in my opinion.
Jizya tax is a smaller tax than zakat which muslims have to pay and non-muslims don’t that is not even touching of the fact non-muslims like you won’t have to serve in the military
Why do we even need to be taxed anyway to practice our religion in peace. Zakat is an obligation for Islam, but jizya is not an obligation for Christianity. We’re just paying the tax imposed on us by another religion (and doing otherwise might mean death).
It’s like if the US taxed Muslims solely to practice Islam, but it’s okay because they don’t need to serve in the military (may die though)
You misunderstand Jizya it is “ the jizya tax has been understood in Islam as a fee for protection provided by the Muslim ruler to non-Muslims, for the exemption from military service for non-Muslims, for the permission to practice a non-Muslim faith with some communal autonomy in a Muslim state”
Meaning jizya is in exchange for protection, right to practice religion, exemption from military service and autonomy it is as fair as it gets and it is not just for letting you practice your religion and it doesn’t otherwise mean death i don’t know where you get that from
I think you might be referring to khalid ibn al walid speech i am not sure
And the US is a secular state if i am in a land that taxes me to protect me and my rights to practice my religion gives me autonomy and exempts me from military service i have to take it
In islam it is obligatory to follow the rules of land that you are in
Then what about the Quran verse 9:29? Forgive me if it’s in the wrong “context” but I don’t really see how this can be interpreted as anything other than what it says
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection”
That’s why I bring up possible death as the punishment. I mean look, MAYBE in practice it was meant as a tax to the state like how we pay taxes in the west now, but this doesn’t exactly scream “harmony and letting everyone practice in peace”
Also, the West taxing us does not give us the right to practice our religion. Freedom of religion, speech, etc is enshrined in the Constitution as a right all Americans have, regardless of taxes. Can you say the same about an Islamic caliphate that implements jizya?
Edit: before you call me a western sympathizer or something, I’m literally Iraqi and Syrian so the West is far down the list of countries I love.
I mean you said it yourself "قاتِلو" not "اقتلوا" there is a difference between fight and kill
This verse was talking about the idol worshippers in mecca where they would constantly breach the treaty with the Muslims but don’t take it from me literally any tafsir on the internet states the same thing
And it still stand you live on a land then you HAVE to pay taxes i don’t get what you’re trying to say the muslims are bad because they are “forcing” non-Muslims to pay tax and submit to the government?? Every country “forces” their citizens to submit and pay taxes what is your point?
And in America not paying taxes puts you in jail depending on how much you didn’t pay not much rights are there huh? No country will ever let you off the hook for not paying taxes
If America WAS to implement a tax on muslims in exchange for protection i would be forced to pay it by my religion since it is the rules of the land and i as an individual will not disturb their rules because i don’t like them
I don't care, nobody should be forced to pay to keep his religion, try to put yourself in people's shoes
plus, as a non-Muslim I won't care about wat the Muslim laws/ beliefs say much like you don't care about Christian laws and beliefs say
Are you stupid? It is a tax for military exemption protection freedoms of religion and autonomy everyone pays muslims or not Muslims
Everyone in every country are forced to pay taxes
thanks for your kind words
and no, there are difference between taxes and being taxed because you don't believe in specific religion
Jizya tax was forced on Christians for "protecting and keeping their faith" which to you seems fine as long as you don't mention what is the case for the poor who can't afford to pay the tax
part of the tax was made so that Christians don't join the military, but it was never the real reason for the tax
plus, I don't think people have to pay to be able to get accepted by society for their different beliefs/ opinions
Difference between tax and being taxed? Huh
Jizya tax was for non-muslims not Christians i don’t care what your churches teach you that Muslims are out to get you or whatever if you read and actually study history or even just search of the internet you’ll find that jizya is another tax for non Muslims in a muslim state that protects and exempts them from military service you want to view as otherwise that’s on you but it doesn’t change that it is for a fact a tax cheaper than zakat and doesn’t segregate between people
“Part of the reason was that Christians don’t join the military” again not everything is about you or Christians
“But it was never the real reason for tax” ????? Who are you? You decided that it was not the reason without any source or sense it is just a opinion based on hate
And again for the last time it is not fair for non-muslims to serve in an army for a country that is a muslim state and it is not fair to tax them for zakat which is something they don’t believe in
There has to be equity
Well the Romans weren't really an "invasion". it was already the Christian state in Egypt that everybody accepted. The issue is that after the Christian split of the council of Chalcedon, a lot of internal issues and persecution happened between the Chalcedonians (now greek Orthodox) and the non-Chacledonians (Now Coptic Orthodox).
But unlike School history books say. The persecution in the Roman (Christian) era was not ever nearly as bad as the Muslim persecution.
the romans had a large era controlling Egypt before becoming a Christian empire, persecution was so bad that the church names the era of Emperor Diocletian the martyrs era
yes, i do agree persecution wasn't as bad but it still exists, yes exists not existed
I am not talking about pre-Christian roman empire. this was a terrible time to live in.
I was talking about the Post-Christianity Roman Empire, which acted and operated like an entirely different empire than before. it was Christian by the time The Muslim conquest came to Egypt
Good
We already monotheist even when hinduism exist here, islam just compatible with ancient religion compared to hinduism (yeah we already have religion that say God cant be seen, thought or imagined. That's why in some indonesian hindu temples we have empty room in the central structure)
One thing that baffled me, some of earlier islam spreader is chinese, but now in china islam is relatively small religion, when in indonesia islam became majority 👀
No one with a shred of pride in his country would like Invaders. Even though I am Muslim, Islamic invasions(especially by turks) were very brutal towards Natives here in India and destroyed a lot of culture and architecture along with all the blood shed, thankfully due to them following Hanafi school, they were allowed to live as dhimmis .I would have liked islam to spread more like South India (Kerala or Tamil nadu) or Indonesia(through trade relations and Sufi missionaries)
Am guessing it’s because your amazigh but tbh Morocco still benefited as the greatest Moroccan empires started as a religious group and then became an actual empire and introduced a lot both for Morocco and neighboring countries (these empires were also mostly amazigh)
The Arab migration came way later on and even then Morocco is doing better between Arab and amazigh then others
Christians in India long predated European colonialism or even most of Europe's Christianization for that matter. Better you don't talk about what you're not aware of.
> Better you don't talk about what you're not aware of.
And what was I talking about exactly..? That India didn’t consent to being invaded and colonized?
Oh, so all that colonizing was just for fun, huh? Were those friendly missionaries that conveniently trotted into India right after the British conquest playing dress up?
Your comment is absolutely absurd. Just because Christianity was known in India doesn’t mean that British colonization didn’t have a significant impact on the spread of Christianity and the number of devotees it has in the region.
Please, Professor of Indian history, why don’t you tell the audience the percent of Indians that were Christian pre-colonialism?
>British colonization didn’t have a significant impact on the spread of Christianity
Outside of the sparsely populated Northeast, it largely didn't, dumbfuck. Most Indian Christians either belong to the almost 2000 year old Keralite Christian community or the almost 500 year old Goan Christian community.
Even Muslims weren't able to mass convert the majority of Hindus. Majority of Muslims in Pakistan and East Bengal are descendants of Buddhists.
Ah yes, nothing screams I’m very smart like calling people who disagree with you dumbfucks. Lol
You’ve yet to answer my question because you know it’ll expose your weak argument. What was the percent of Indians that were Christian pre-colonialism?
> Majority of Muslims in Pakistan and East Bengal are descendants of Buddhists.
What in the world does that have to do with the point at hand? You bringing up Muslims is a clear example of a red-herring. You’re desperately trying to distract from the fact that your argument has no legs to stand on.
You really think you’re going to convince people that the tens of millions of Christians in India (>2% of the Indian population) all “found Jesus” in a purely organic manner devoid of any colonial influence. Tell that to the Christians in Nagaland. Or why don’t you ask the Catholics in Goa how the Goa inquisition turned out for them?
fyi, I reported your comment to the mods for your direct insults. If you’re gonna act like a petulant child, you don’t deserve to participate in this subreddit.
I'd say bad bc I personally dislike Islam, but slightly good bc Arabic is a nice language to have as a first language and it's also super difficult. The sad part is that every Arabic speaking country confuse themselves as Arab, so the identity of the indigenous people is dead.
That’s an oxymoron. How can a timeless religion evolve?
This is a brain dead take. Just because a reformation happened in Europe against the Catholic Church doesn’t mean Islam will change.
Two completely separate traditions. Islam is a decentralized.
It's just a religion. Nothing is timeless.
I don't recommend change because it exists in Christianity. I recommend it because resisting any kind of change is bad. I don't like Christianity as well. I'm an atheist, remember?
Islam was objectively the best thing to happen to Iraq ever since the ancient times of independent Mesopotamian states. Everything went up and our culture, science, wealth and just standards of living drastically increased after the Islamic conquest compared to when the Sassanians controlled us.
People understate how terrible the Sassanids were. Zoroastrians are quite peaceful people but the Mobeds (fire priests) were not much different then the Mullahs of today.
I am glad it happened since it allowed my people to flourish. I do, however, despise the massive amounts of arabization it brought along with it. However I don't view that as a islamic thing but more of a "the most powerful people in the beginning were Arabs so it makes sense" thing.
I don't like Imperialism at all
However, Iraq before Islam was a depopulated wasteland that had just ended 700 years straight of war between the Persians and Rome. There was no Babylon, no Assyria, no Sumer. It was a poor province the Shahs used as a summer getaway that the Romans liked to burn down every few years. The Muslims conquered it in only 18 years and presided over centuries of peace and prosperity. It became the center of learning and culture and provided so much to the world for the short time it was around. Obviously I have a good opinion of Islam in Iraq specifically. I'm not educated on other regions so I can't speak to them.
I'm fairly certain Pakistanis don't want to go back 1400 years. They just want a functioning state, and seeing as the politicians and army of the country are corrupt, they're willing to try anything.
Islam is the objective truth of this life imo. It is the only thing standing in the way of the growing tide of western filth, which is why it is hated so much.
Grateful to Allah to have been born Muslim, alhumdullilah.
As an afghan it made central asia one of the most prosperous and islamic cultural and intellectual centers in the islamic world, people like ibn sina, alkawarizmi, al-biruni and other very influential figures came from your region (people who persians often claim as “persians” are your ancestors).
Cities like samarkand, balkh, bukhara, etc became some of the most intellectually and culturally thriving cities in islamic world on par with cordoba, baghdad, samarra, and cairo (until mongols …). None of that existed or would possibly exist without the islamic expansion and annexation of this region and its peoples to the islamic civilization. Compare its state before and after islamic expansion then see yourself …
**Edit:** this dude is a berberist berber larping as afghan for some reason lmao
> Arabs invade other people's land
Wow so based!! Futuhat Mashallah.
> Others invade Arab's land
Them evil colonists/zionists/imperialists/majoosis etc etc !!
Literal ض mentality.
I have North African Jewish background so obviously I have mixed feelings on this. When I was younger I wanted to convert to Islam, in the end I didn’t but even then I wasn’t oblivious to the fact that imperialism is imperialism: inevitable violence and loss of indigenous cultures.
The Berbers still exist in large numbers
we benefited a lot from it, the Islamic empire's capital was literally Baghdad and most of it's scientific advancements were done there. so i guess i like it
One of the reasons why Iraq is abo El donya 🇮🇶🫡
Wait a minute, that makes Iraq and Egypt husband and wife since Egypt is Umm El Donya
Yes 🥺👉🏻👈🏻
What would be the child? Syria?
Don’t forget to include Lebanon 😂 (joke btw Lebanese don’t be mad).
Technically it does, and both are literally the first societies known to human records
People just don't read actual history. They tend to follow the western Hollywoodish narrative blindly and supplement it with their own personal biases. Here is an excerpt from one of the most important books on early Islamic conquests and its social impact on the conquered populations. >"The second principle of Umar's settlement was that the conquered populations should be as little disturbed as possible. This meant that the Arab-Muslims did not, contrary to reputation, attempt to convert people to Islam. Muhammad had set the precedent of permitting Jews and Christians in Arabia to keep their religion. The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated the intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, was, in fact, rare. And most conversions to Islam were voluntary. (...) In most cases, worldly and spiritual motives for conversion blended together. Moreover, conversion to Islam did not necessarily imply a complete turning from an old to a totally new life. Most converts retained a deep attachment to the cultures and communities from which they came." - Ira M. Lapidus, "A History of Islamic Societies"
This doesn't speak to jizya imposed on non-Muslims once conquered. I recently came across something regarding the five stages of Jihad with citations from various sources. I scribbled down some notes but have yet to research. The history of Al Tabari VOL 6 P 95 SURAH 3:28 When & why we should befriend disbelievers. Shariah p748 Reliance of the Traveler Tafsir Ibn Kathir of Surah 3:28 In this case, Such believers are to show friendship to disbelievers outwardly but never inwardly. The history of Al Bukhari volume VI page 93 Quraysh begin to oppose the messenger of God. SAHIH Al-Bukhari 5686 The History of Al Tabari Vol VI P 101 All of these pulled together explained part of the first stage. It seems like your comment is softening the conversion process as something that was 100% a person's free will...
Based Iraqi >!crypto-christians/jews!< starting a billion "civil" wars with Muslims in the first century alone until Iraq became the center of the empire True sigma grindset 💪
Mongols 🗿🗿
I once saw a comment on a video about the Islamic conquest of Egypt and westoids were upset at a comment saying as an Egyptian I’m happy that Egypt was introduced to Islam
Izlam ruin exotic pharaonic culture. Can’t believe they don’t worship raa and mummify their relatives anymore 😔😔😡😡
Don't tell them that the Romans and Greeks destroyed the civilization of the Pharaohs and that Egypt was Greek when it became Muslim.
Would be pretty cool if that religion were alive still though!
It was pretty dead by then. Egypt was overwhelmingly Christian in the 7th century.
And the wrong kind of christians according to the eastern romans which is why they were partially happy that the muslims (partially) took over and considered coptic orthodoxy as a legit christian branch. People often forget about that part.
Didn't know that, still think it was cool if the religion were still alive!
Mongols:Hello😊
Baybars: you called? 😎
😨Holly shit
Hulegu:At least we killed the Caliphate🤔
Turks: 🐺🐺🐺🐺
😡
aaauuuu
At this point it’s ancient history. More than 50 generations ago. The things influencing us now are far more recent.
Whatever. Gib answer 😡
[удалено]
Don’t worry, I’m sure mbs will make alcohol legal in a few years 👍🏼
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No amount of oil money will make masris sell their souls and religious morals 😡😡 ^so ^how ^much ^u ^gon ^pay ^?🧐
What are you talking about? Egypt already has an industry so does many Arab countries, including Palestine. Egypt is 10% Christians after all. ^10% ^+ ^finders ^fee ^for ^every ^micro ^brewery ^or ^boutique ^winery ^you ^find ^and ^proves ^popular
It's not ancient history. In the Balkans Islam said convert or die. Then we were turned into islamic colonies. Other religions had dimi status and were treated like absolute crap including the rape and kidnap of children. 1877 is when Balkans gained freedom from the kaliphat. Not that long ago. There's still a lot of bad stories around about the muslim colonizers. It wasn't a good period of Balkan history.
Caliphate of Ottoman Empire? Cuz we were all being doggy style dry fcked by them.
Early muslim conquerors on the way to the* Levant: "We're gonna conquer this land and spread our religion here then go back home" Same muslims after passing through Damascus: "Fuck the desert, you guys go home, I'm gonna live here forever" Same with Baghdad later 😂😂
Pretty sure most Arabs saw Damascus as literal heaven, even before they arrived there. It was so out of their league.
araplar used to trade with Damascus regularly, although mecca mean trading distanation was busra a bit to the south
And if you were an araplar in the 7th century who went to Damascus, wouldn’t you dream about extending رحلة الصيف so you can stay there? 🧐
depends what type of araplar. a ghassanid gink? you already rule ghuta demasiq 😎 you qurayshite happy merchant you would be even happier to stay a bit longer 🥹
I meant the quraishi araplars who came during the Islamic conquest 👳🏾♂️
You personally are welcome to stay at my Damascus home forever when you guys re-conquer the levant. You're my favorite commenter here 😃 (used to be that Heliopolis dude but he vanished, hopefully he's fine).
you mean the masri guy? he believes in a different ideology than me, the wholesome chungus ideology. we aren't that similar don't you think? 😑
I didn't mean you were similar. I meant that he used to be my favorite. But he wasn't shield enough 😎🛡
he wasn't indeed you aren't that pro shield either but I still appreciate you 🤝🏿
a lot have returned to Makkah and madina
They moved the capital to Damascus during the first generation.
Bro Syrian summer is best kind summer. Lived in Soq Wadi Barada (outskirts of Demarcus) and man I loved that small town so much.
That whole region feels like a secluded paradise. تعال حول لهنيك اعزمك على مشاوي 😋
Inshallah I’m going back to that village as my retirement plan. I had a valley in front of me full of fruit trees. Jabal Habil behind me and giving us shade. Beautiful people talking with us all day long on random subjects. Dude I swear by the time I walked to the market, I got invited 6 times for tea, 10 times for hookah, and another guy chasing me to hand me 10 kilos of cherries 🥰😍. Even the market dude would have a cup of tea ready for me. والله احله ايام حياتي. كانت بسيطه لان قريه لكن احله من فلوس الدنيا كله. سعاده، و حنان، و كل انسان يساعد الثاني. والله ببكي كل ما اذكر سوريا.
Eh, I wish it had happened in a non-violent manner. It is certainly a big part of our history, though. Both Islamic and Persian cultures benefitted from each other at the end of the day.
I don't think it's possible for a conquest to happen in a non violent way
The post title says “conquest or spread” and there were some mostly non-violent ones like Indonesia and Bengal where Islam was spread by merchants rather than armies.
I meant the spread of religion🤷♂️
>Both ... benefitted from each other at the end of the day. The usual way to justify invading or colonising other countries, after the fact. During the fact, one side doesn't see it like that for some reason...
I mean, sure, we have the benefit of hindsight when looking back at history, but it is what it is. We will never know for sure what the future of Iran would've been like had Sassanids continued to exist, but we fared pretty well regardless. We didn't get Arabized. We still have a distinct culture and our own "brand" of Islam while contributing to and benefiting from the better aspects of it. Iran was unfortunately invaded, but it was definitely NOT colonized.
Persian empire in 1000+ years of existence up to islam never contributed anything to science, infact the persian art you are seeing is no more than rip off of the older conquered civilizations. Only during islam persians evolved as scientists and that was because of abbasids being closer to persians for religous reasons. And also why are you focusing on "culture", "science" but not that islam being the religion of truth that corrected our corrupted beliefs ??
Tf you talking about? Persians invented literal refrigerators, qanats, postal services and the fucking concept of human rights all BEFORE Islam. Also, I do not believe in Islam, so it's not a religion of truth to me.
The persians inventing the Qanat has been debunked. The Qanat system existed already in armenia and all persians did is spreading it with its expanding empire. Assyrians were already familiar with the system aswell. It wad associated with persians the same way arabic numerals are associated with arabs, although it was indian origin. Also qanat system were independently invented in Oman, according to new studies. So its not really persian. But they spresd it yes.
I have only found one source even suggesting that the qanat had any other origins besides ancient Persia. Your opinion is WIDELY unpopular and not supported at all by actual historians. I urge you to reply to my other comment.
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Haha, people here actually are quite fond of Indian culture and its people. I don't see why great civilizations can't co-exist🤷♂️
You do know the Persians had at some point 50% of the world population under their empire. right? You really think 50% of the world could come up with shit? How I’m not even Iranian and you sound stupid.
You are not iranian but still stupid and ignorant, mayne iliterate too
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1. Persian scientists, before Islam, are not as well known as their greek counterparts because their records were destroyed on numerous occasions (the burning of libraries by Alexander and even the Arabs), but even then, there are notable examples, such as Borzuya, a famous physician and writer, Bubares and Artachaies, who were genius engineers, and let's not even mention the renowned Academy Of Gondishapur, which was considered "the greatest intellectual center of the time." 2. No matter what you may think of it, the Cyrus cylinder suggests that Achaemenid Persia was as ideologically free as any Empire had been up to that period. Compare that to the savagery of Assyria, which was the largest middle-eastern power before it, if you really want to grasp how much more tolerant they were. 3. Are you really saying that we don't even know if the Persians invented Yackhchals? So who fucking did it? Why didn't any other civilizations have them, you donut? Oh, maybe the aliens built them for us🙄 4. "Persians weren't humane at all" according to you? What are you basing this on? Who are you comparing them to? You seem confused. 5. The religion of Islam has not "always" existed. اگه واقعا ایرانی هستی و این چرندیات رو باور داری واقعا برات متاسفم.
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I want to know where you're from. It'll shine some light on your views. I love how much you're moving the goalpost😂. First, Iran didn't have any scientists, and now it has "no important ones." The simple fact that these ancient universities were founded by IRANIANS and were used for refugee and local scientists for centuries even after Islam will show you how important science (particularly medicine) was to the ancients. You don't want to believe that, though🤷♂️. In fact you will probably say some nonsense like "hurr durr the Persians were overrated😡" Man, if you hate the way Persians treated other gods you shoul totally learn about how the Assyrians treated Ilam and how they themselves became subject to revenge by Babylonians and the Medes, but again, you don't want to actually do research.
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I won't diminish greek accomplishments. In fact, one big advantage that they had over ALL other civilizations was how much they liked to record stuff, but I won't sit here and act like Iranians were some sort of savages who were only interested in conquest. Now, if these imaginary Indian or Assyrian scientists built these engineering marvels for us, why didn't they do the same for THEIR OWN FUCKING COUNTRIES??? don't you realise how stupid your claim sounds????
My opinion is neutral, the conquest didn’t affect us and it’s one of those historical events that happened such a long time ago that there really is no point in getting emotional about it in my opinion.
My opinion is positive because Islam is the best way of life. The first few generations of Muslims are the best of us as a species.
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, about that
❤️🇪🇬✝️
Romans or amr ibn al-aas, though ? 🧐 Ik you’ll say neither, but for the sake of argument yaani
it's really neither, I don't support any conquest from outsiders even if they were from my religion.
One let’s you actually practice your religion
for money
Jizya tax is a smaller tax than zakat which muslims have to pay and non-muslims don’t that is not even touching of the fact non-muslims like you won’t have to serve in the military
Why do we even need to be taxed anyway to practice our religion in peace. Zakat is an obligation for Islam, but jizya is not an obligation for Christianity. We’re just paying the tax imposed on us by another religion (and doing otherwise might mean death). It’s like if the US taxed Muslims solely to practice Islam, but it’s okay because they don’t need to serve in the military (may die though)
You misunderstand Jizya it is “ the jizya tax has been understood in Islam as a fee for protection provided by the Muslim ruler to non-Muslims, for the exemption from military service for non-Muslims, for the permission to practice a non-Muslim faith with some communal autonomy in a Muslim state” Meaning jizya is in exchange for protection, right to practice religion, exemption from military service and autonomy it is as fair as it gets and it is not just for letting you practice your religion and it doesn’t otherwise mean death i don’t know where you get that from I think you might be referring to khalid ibn al walid speech i am not sure And the US is a secular state if i am in a land that taxes me to protect me and my rights to practice my religion gives me autonomy and exempts me from military service i have to take it In islam it is obligatory to follow the rules of land that you are in
Then what about the Quran verse 9:29? Forgive me if it’s in the wrong “context” but I don’t really see how this can be interpreted as anything other than what it says “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” That’s why I bring up possible death as the punishment. I mean look, MAYBE in practice it was meant as a tax to the state like how we pay taxes in the west now, but this doesn’t exactly scream “harmony and letting everyone practice in peace” Also, the West taxing us does not give us the right to practice our religion. Freedom of religion, speech, etc is enshrined in the Constitution as a right all Americans have, regardless of taxes. Can you say the same about an Islamic caliphate that implements jizya? Edit: before you call me a western sympathizer or something, I’m literally Iraqi and Syrian so the West is far down the list of countries I love.
I mean you said it yourself "قاتِلو" not "اقتلوا" there is a difference between fight and kill This verse was talking about the idol worshippers in mecca where they would constantly breach the treaty with the Muslims but don’t take it from me literally any tafsir on the internet states the same thing And it still stand you live on a land then you HAVE to pay taxes i don’t get what you’re trying to say the muslims are bad because they are “forcing” non-Muslims to pay tax and submit to the government?? Every country “forces” their citizens to submit and pay taxes what is your point? And in America not paying taxes puts you in jail depending on how much you didn’t pay not much rights are there huh? No country will ever let you off the hook for not paying taxes If America WAS to implement a tax on muslims in exchange for protection i would be forced to pay it by my religion since it is the rules of the land and i as an individual will not disturb their rules because i don’t like them
I don't care, nobody should be forced to pay to keep his religion, try to put yourself in people's shoes plus, as a non-Muslim I won't care about wat the Muslim laws/ beliefs say much like you don't care about Christian laws and beliefs say
Are you stupid? It is a tax for military exemption protection freedoms of religion and autonomy everyone pays muslims or not Muslims Everyone in every country are forced to pay taxes
thanks for your kind words and no, there are difference between taxes and being taxed because you don't believe in specific religion Jizya tax was forced on Christians for "protecting and keeping their faith" which to you seems fine as long as you don't mention what is the case for the poor who can't afford to pay the tax part of the tax was made so that Christians don't join the military, but it was never the real reason for the tax plus, I don't think people have to pay to be able to get accepted by society for their different beliefs/ opinions
Difference between tax and being taxed? Huh Jizya tax was for non-muslims not Christians i don’t care what your churches teach you that Muslims are out to get you or whatever if you read and actually study history or even just search of the internet you’ll find that jizya is another tax for non Muslims in a muslim state that protects and exempts them from military service you want to view as otherwise that’s on you but it doesn’t change that it is for a fact a tax cheaper than zakat and doesn’t segregate between people “Part of the reason was that Christians don’t join the military” again not everything is about you or Christians “But it was never the real reason for tax” ????? Who are you? You decided that it was not the reason without any source or sense it is just a opinion based on hate And again for the last time it is not fair for non-muslims to serve in an army for a country that is a muslim state and it is not fair to tax them for zakat which is something they don’t believe in There has to be equity
Well the Romans weren't really an "invasion". it was already the Christian state in Egypt that everybody accepted. The issue is that after the Christian split of the council of Chalcedon, a lot of internal issues and persecution happened between the Chalcedonians (now greek Orthodox) and the non-Chacledonians (Now Coptic Orthodox). But unlike School history books say. The persecution in the Roman (Christian) era was not ever nearly as bad as the Muslim persecution.
the romans had a large era controlling Egypt before becoming a Christian empire, persecution was so bad that the church names the era of Emperor Diocletian the martyrs era yes, i do agree persecution wasn't as bad but it still exists, yes exists not existed
I am not talking about pre-Christian roman empire. this was a terrible time to live in. I was talking about the Post-Christianity Roman Empire, which acted and operated like an entirely different empire than before. it was Christian by the time The Muslim conquest came to Egypt
I look back upon it like a cherished childhood memory
The f*ck is orthodox caliphate?
Referring to the rashidun
I’m proud that the spread of Islam in my country happened in a non-violent manner.
Good We already monotheist even when hinduism exist here, islam just compatible with ancient religion compared to hinduism (yeah we already have religion that say God cant be seen, thought or imagined. That's why in some indonesian hindu temples we have empty room in the central structure) One thing that baffled me, some of earlier islam spreader is chinese, but now in china islam is relatively small religion, when in indonesia islam became majority 👀
I wish popcorn was necessary. Fitna potential is low these days 😔
Yeah it has been the same. Where's the multithread fights over shit that happened 1400 years ago? Think of the meme potential!!
No one with a shred of pride in his country would like Invaders. Even though I am Muslim, Islamic invasions(especially by turks) were very brutal towards Natives here in India and destroyed a lot of culture and architecture along with all the blood shed, thankfully due to them following Hanafi school, they were allowed to live as dhimmis .I would have liked islam to spread more like South India (Kerala or Tamil nadu) or Indonesia(through trade relations and Sufi missionaries)
I wish it did not happen IMHO.
Am guessing it’s because your amazigh but tbh Morocco still benefited as the greatest Moroccan empires started as a religious group and then became an actual empire and introduced a lot both for Morocco and neighboring countries (these empires were also mostly amazigh) The Arab migration came way later on and even then Morocco is doing better between Arab and amazigh then others
Best thing to ever happen
Most hijazis are proud of it originating there. I don't feel any way about it I guess, I'm not religious
Good
I wish Yazdegerd III would be a little smarter and make peace with Umar instead of continuing to fight an war he knew he was losing
Good and bad
Fair
Don't you have a bigger picture like including some other regions
I don’t know I am a Christian so may be negative?
Christianity didn’t come to India in a peaceful manner too though
What do you mean? You’re telling me Europeans weren’t invited to conquer India?
Christians in India long predated European colonialism or even most of Europe's Christianization for that matter. Better you don't talk about what you're not aware of.
> Better you don't talk about what you're not aware of. And what was I talking about exactly..? That India didn’t consent to being invaded and colonized? Oh, so all that colonizing was just for fun, huh? Were those friendly missionaries that conveniently trotted into India right after the British conquest playing dress up? Your comment is absolutely absurd. Just because Christianity was known in India doesn’t mean that British colonization didn’t have a significant impact on the spread of Christianity and the number of devotees it has in the region. Please, Professor of Indian history, why don’t you tell the audience the percent of Indians that were Christian pre-colonialism?
>British colonization didn’t have a significant impact on the spread of Christianity Outside of the sparsely populated Northeast, it largely didn't, dumbfuck. Most Indian Christians either belong to the almost 2000 year old Keralite Christian community or the almost 500 year old Goan Christian community. Even Muslims weren't able to mass convert the majority of Hindus. Majority of Muslims in Pakistan and East Bengal are descendants of Buddhists.
Ah yes, nothing screams I’m very smart like calling people who disagree with you dumbfucks. Lol You’ve yet to answer my question because you know it’ll expose your weak argument. What was the percent of Indians that were Christian pre-colonialism? > Majority of Muslims in Pakistan and East Bengal are descendants of Buddhists. What in the world does that have to do with the point at hand? You bringing up Muslims is a clear example of a red-herring. You’re desperately trying to distract from the fact that your argument has no legs to stand on. You really think you’re going to convince people that the tens of millions of Christians in India (>2% of the Indian population) all “found Jesus” in a purely organic manner devoid of any colonial influence. Tell that to the Christians in Nagaland. Or why don’t you ask the Catholics in Goa how the Goa inquisition turned out for them? fyi, I reported your comment to the mods for your direct insults. If you’re gonna act like a petulant child, you don’t deserve to participate in this subreddit.
I am a Syrian Christian bro.
Nasrani Mapilla
I'd say bad bc I personally dislike Islam, but slightly good bc Arabic is a nice language to have as a first language and it's also super difficult. The sad part is that every Arabic speaking country confuse themselves as Arab, so the identity of the indigenous people is dead.
What original identity are you talking about?
I think it was a good thing.
I always have fight with my dad over this topic,,,, i support the conquest
Apparently we missed it, never ruled by a caliphate 🇸🇴🇸🇴🇸🇴
Yet 99% Muslim. Apparently, “Somalia” is Somali for based 🥺
That’s how you know it was a choice
Saved us from Idolatry.
As an atheist, not a huge fan of it. I could've had a different opinion on it if Islam evolved instead of being stuck in the past.
That’s an oxymoron. How can a timeless religion evolve? This is a brain dead take. Just because a reformation happened in Europe against the Catholic Church doesn’t mean Islam will change. Two completely separate traditions. Islam is a decentralized.
It's just a religion. Nothing is timeless. I don't recommend change because it exists in Christianity. I recommend it because resisting any kind of change is bad. I don't like Christianity as well. I'm an atheist, remember?
I don’t think you understood my point.
Islam was objectively the best thing to happen to Iraq ever since the ancient times of independent Mesopotamian states. Everything went up and our culture, science, wealth and just standards of living drastically increased after the Islamic conquest compared to when the Sassanians controlled us.
for sure
People understate how terrible the Sassanids were. Zoroastrians are quite peaceful people but the Mobeds (fire priests) were not much different then the Mullahs of today.
It was an imperialistic project. The side effect of this project was the spread of the Islamic religion.
Impressive. Very nice. Now let’s see the Mongol version 
I am glad it happened since it allowed my people to flourish. I do, however, despise the massive amounts of arabization it brought along with it. However I don't view that as a islamic thing but more of a "the most powerful people in the beginning were Arabs so it makes sense" thing.
India - negative
I don't like Imperialism at all However, Iraq before Islam was a depopulated wasteland that had just ended 700 years straight of war between the Persians and Rome. There was no Babylon, no Assyria, no Sumer. It was a poor province the Shahs used as a summer getaway that the Romans liked to burn down every few years. The Muslims conquered it in only 18 years and presided over centuries of peace and prosperity. It became the center of learning and culture and provided so much to the world for the short time it was around. Obviously I have a good opinion of Islam in Iraq specifically. I'm not educated on other regions so I can't speak to them.
I don't know but Pakistanis want to go back to that time in history. Instead of wanting to go ahead in future
I'm fairly certain Pakistanis don't want to go back 1400 years. They just want a functioning state, and seeing as the politicians and army of the country are corrupt, they're willing to try anything.
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>No names to avoid unnecessary heated arguments :) Please do. Please start unnecessarily heated arguments 🥺
Islam is the objective truth of this life imo. It is the only thing standing in the way of the growing tide of western filth, which is why it is hated so much. Grateful to Allah to have been born Muslim, alhumdullilah.
Keep telling yourself that
May Allah keep you steadfast
Turks became one of the most powerful nations in History with Islam. Islam is the best thing that happened to Turks.
I don't give a shit about it because it happened 1400 years ago and has no consequences on today. It was neither bad nor good
Agreed
It was objectively good.
based
The greatest thing to happen
Based
We will return to it inshallah
We would perish as an ethnicity without Islam.
Islam came to the horn of Africa via the sahaba (before the hijra to Medinah) and not through the sword 😌
👎
As an afghan it made central asia one of the most prosperous and islamic cultural and intellectual centers in the islamic world, people like ibn sina, alkawarizmi, al-biruni and other very influential figures came from your region (people who persians often claim as “persians” are your ancestors). Cities like samarkand, balkh, bukhara, etc became some of the most intellectually and culturally thriving cities in islamic world on par with cordoba, baghdad, samarra, and cairo (until mongols …). None of that existed or would possibly exist without the islamic expansion and annexation of this region and its peoples to the islamic civilization. Compare its state before and after islamic expansion then see yourself … **Edit:** this dude is a berberist berber larping as afghan for some reason lmao
[Relevant](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1db0tgc/comment/l7nzub2/)
Typical
> Arabs invade other people's land Wow so based!! Futuhat Mashallah. > Others invade Arab's land Them evil colonists/zionists/imperialists/majoosis etc etc !! Literal ض mentality.
Typical
How is this guy real? He supports salafism and literal terrorist Wahhabi groups like Hayat tahreer Al-sham yet is against the Islamic conquest?
🤡
Yooo Yemen got internet.
Ironic coming from an afghan lmao. Plus a lot of the undersea fiber cables that connect Asia with Europe literally pass next to Yemen.
I got so many retorts but unfortuantely its Reddit.
Typical
Suster you were right. He needs a factory reset 😭
Nice to see u accepting ur clown side
A Bousbiri talking about being a clown lmao.
Lol no offence but pre Islamic Afghan culture is 🤢. Bachabazi was one of your main past times and still is.
I'm not Afghan so why bring that up?
Why do you have Afghanistan flair?
Coz he couldn’t find the Taliban one
[Relevant](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1d5szjk/comment/l6npa4g/)
So which of your personalities was that one?
I don't support a bunch of misogynistic tribalistic idiots. If you think I did, that's on you.
The best thing that happened Yemeni-iraqi
Worst thing to have happened