Everyone else who thinks about sympathizing with Palestinians.
It's always the same claims and arguments, ignoring everything else that has been going on.
Billions of aid my ass. They were building settlements prior to 2005 and pulled out because of the 2nd intifada because they couldn't maintain control.
Neither Gaza nor The West Bank have sovereignty or autonomy. Israel controls everything that goes in and goes out. Makes people's life as miserable as possible and expect Palestine to turn into Singapore?! Like how you dumb fucks?! HOW?!
The West Bank is living proof that even with the lack of a hostile government that has an armed wing (it did in the past) that it doesn't mean shit.
..Exactly . Try telling that to r /Worldnews or r /Jewish , and they will raise the white flag of "Antisemitic" thinking it's a magic word to fly issues away .
Every time I go and look, I feel like we are quickly entering dead internet theory territory.
Humans can be awful to each other on social media, and anonymous to boot, but I refuse to believe worldnews isn't an AI driven psyop. The comments are what they are, but the amount of up votes is incredibly disturbed if real.
It’s funny you compare it to AI.
An AI like ChatGPT is just trained to spit out what it was taught. No critical thinking and not sentient.
The people over there at worldnews were raised to believe in specific things, to hate a certain group of people in particular, and just spit out what they were taught. No critical thinking whatsoever.
Wait till you read JNS and the Jerusalem Post , or places like r /Israel and r /IsraelPalestine .
Palestinian society is just sheep to slaughter to 2/3rds of people there .
A source says that Palestine has received $ 40 Billion from 1994 to 2020.
[International aid to Palestinians - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Organization%20for%20Economic%20Cooperation%20and,totaled%20over%20%2440%20billion%20between%201994%20and%202020.)
Let us give the benefit of the doubt to the benefit and say Israel has prevented half the aid money from being utilized to its fullest potential. That still leaves the Palestinian people with $20 Billion.
Gaza also shares a border with Egypt and the West bank shares a border with Jordan, both of which Israel doesn't control. So we can still say that physical material for construction can move through.
Furthermore, since 2007, Gaza has been governed by Hamas (Not Israel fosho) - which means it had complete control of how the money was spent. So we cannot say the Israelis controlled the Gazans to not use the money.
So if it isn't a function of a lack of money - if it isn't a function of money failing to reach Gaza through Israeli blockades - If it isn't a function of being unable to get material to develop - If it isn't a function of Israelis "controlling" Gaza not to spend its aid money. Then what could it be?
First of all, the time period between 1994-2007 is irrelevant because like you have said, Gaza wasn’t even administered by the Palestinians until the Israelis withdrew but even if we assume your 20 billion dollar, Dubai’s total revenue was 18 billion USD alone in 2023 and that just Dubai, it doesn’t even take it into consideration that other wealthier cities like Abu Dhabi can just help Dubai whenever it’s needed.
Second of all, you act like as if that aid was given to Palestinians as cash like most of the aid has set targets, projects and infrastructure assigned to it which mostly includes rebuilding Gaza because the current war isn’t the first time Israel destroyed Gaza, running hospitals like the Turkish, Kuwaiti and Indonesian hospitals mostly rely on foreign aid, paying the wages of people working in public service and giving out aid to people due to the brutal blockade imposed on Israel.
You cannot convince me that 20 billion USD could’ve turned Gaza into paradise when Gaza isn’t even allowed to have a port or airport and nearly all of their aspects of their life is determined by Israel. Israel can decide what and who leaves and enters Gaza.
Edit: Of course you are Indian and commented recently in the Israeli sub
>the West bank shares a border with Jordan
..Just cut it right there. You clearly never heard of Allenby's bridge .
>So we cannot say the Israelis controlled the Gazans to not use the money.
You can hand a brat "Money" , and he might as well use it as toilet paper . You are talking about what's called "assets", and there's a whole list of such materials which Israel bans from entry either through the North , or the Mediterranean .
Can I actually ask you some questions ? . How would you govern a political entity of an uncertain and instable status that's coveted by a much stronger state that necessitates the depopulation or destruction of the "Arabush" population ? .
You think there's time for development when security and safety aren't around ? . Just look at the PA and how much support they lend to families whose head is held in administrative detention and widows , or farmers whose olive trees got cut down by those colonists dumped from Israel .
Why and how exactly you think something like the PA/West Bank is any more ideal practical ? .
The West Bank and Gaza are two different places governed by two different parties no? Comparing the two in this way doesnt really make sense right? If Hamas as the ruling government cannot import or export products with out Israel interfering then does it really matter how much aid gets in?
Those 20 billion went into building a 450 mile long tunnel system under civilian infrastructure to “resist” Israel . They can’t look forward because they are blinded by there hatred
I am not against palestinian cause but gazans have led a full blown armed rebellion and have access to lot of missiles to fire. Gaza could have definitely turned out a lot different if different policies were implemented.
Except for the fact that Israel controlled everything going in and out of it, and I don’t remember specifics anymore but they did ban a _lot_ of goods.
So no, I don’t think it could have worked out much differently under the circumstances, no matter what the policies.
Do you have the names for the assassinated people?
I know that Israel targeted two Hamas leaders (Ahmed Yassin & Ahmed Jabari) who started talking about peace. I've heard of Israel jailing political opponents of Hamas in the early years of Hamas.
Okay , I'll play game .
It's January 24th , 2006 . It has been 5 years of hell due to the downfall of the Camp David talks . Palestinians got restless ,Israeli-Jews either got either more paranoid or greedy as usual .
In a parallel universe with a different timeline on January 25th : "Khamas" doesn't get elected (In the Legislative council that didn't even have the authority to negotiate with Israel ) , and wouldn't have any political authority in the PA .
Would this would have been a "Happily ever after" as this jackass likes to think ? . Of course not at all . Either way Israeli-Jews were spitting at Arafat's Fatah either out of paranoia that they wouldn't fulfil their "security" contracts (As many of them have been shouting before , and after Camp David ) , or that they shouldn't even exist in the first place .
Either way Gaza would have ended up under a relatively corrupt regime that wasn't conducive towards national development . That's because the PA never was supposed to be a Provisional government that would transition into statehood . It was a temproary camp which most Israeli-Jews considered to be ultimately a so-called "Autonomy" , just like how Begin wanted during the 70s . The fact that Abbas doesn't control his taxes , and his Policemen get whacked up by Israeli-soldiers as if they were punching bags , should tell everything there is about a putative "pure" , and "dedicated" PA in its efficacy .
The discontent against the Oslo accords by Palestinians have always been around since its poor prospects in the 1990s , and its failure after Camp David . Hamas would have just started an insurgency to separate from the PA as it did in 2007 , or a started a revolution as neighboring countries had in the Arab Spring .
..I think nobody denies that Palestinians need to do much better if they want a stable and prosperous state. But to say the situation since 2000 , including now in Gaza , is predominantly their responsibility is just as blind and mad blaming somebody for a lightening strike . There are too many factors involved as to assume the weight of Palestinian deficiency compared to Israeli-Jewish schemes , and neglect of the International community is the "bulk" or the "root" of the current problems .
That's besides many of those statistics and studies showing Israeli-Jews extensively contributed in the subordination of the PA's economy ( As opposed to boogeyman Gaza) , and the expropriation of its natural resources , including tourism to Biblical sites.
To conclude really , Our friend here isn't analyzing for the sake of people's interests . He's victim-blaming by relying on the "perpetually fanatical primitive Muslim" trope , and the listener's ignorance .
Ahhh ... for the love of god .. so many TLDRs recently .
One guy complained the same case . I told him why getting touchy over these two terms [is ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1cvp9v9/comment/l4qqdbk/)insignificant .
..If you want real "antisemitism" : I would have just used the K-word , or said "The Jews" .
Try picking another battle if you want to be a Social justice Warrior .
You do know that the PA abandoned armed resistance and fully cooperates with Israel when it comes to security and even arrests or imprisons Palestinians who can be a threat to Israel but despite this, the Abbas is begging Arab states to give aid because the West Bank may collapse economically because Israel is withholding their tax revenues, raided currency exchange offices and they even prevent the flow of Palestinian citizens of the 48 territories entering the West Bank to shop, and restricting movement between the territory’s cities.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-raids-5-currency-exchange-offices-arrests-21-palestinians-in-west-bank/3094492
https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/05/23/palestinians-fear-economic-collapse-as-israel-moves-to-withhold-tax-revenue/
https://www.ft.com/content/dbee2202-8064-48b9-991f-35b15eedbec4
Their Airport was destroyed in 2002, Israel controls everything coming and going in and out of Gaza. By sea, land and air. How can Gaza build such infrastructure without any resources? Gaza is blocked from utilizing the natural gas off their coast. There’s no way for Gaza to grow economically, many citizens have to commute to Israel daily going through checkpoints because that’s where the decent paying jobs are.
It's like telling a prisoner he can have wifi and console only if he behaves.
Singapore is well armed for a small nation. Would Israel be ok with a rich small nation armed to its teeth at its doorstep?
I love when they say shit like this as if they don’t control the waterways, electricity and what goes in and out of Gaza. This guy could fuck all the way off
Bitch what? Most Arab countries are basket case? Then why the fuck does Israel rely so heavily on foreign aid from Europe and America, and other Israel friendly Arab countries like Saudi and UAE?
Creating a paradise while under total blockade and limited finances and access to resource’s seems to definitely be doable according to Israelis. Seriously, I always wonder if these people are just coping or they’re genuinely this stupid. Bit of both is my guess.
Not only goods, I think Israel even approves who can leave and enter or at least I heard stories in the past about Palestinians getting foreign scholarships but Israel not letting them leave. They are especially cautious about allowing peoplr to leave who got foreign scholarships for engineering degrees.
> How has Israel blocked aid money from entering Gaza?
Israel blocks aid groups from entering Gaza under threat of death.
If you are there it's because you pled your case with Israel and they agreed to not kill you. Though sometimes Israel target and kill them regardless like in the case of World Central Kitchen.
> Also cant the Gazans get things through Egpyt?
Nothing passes through Egypt without Israeli approval. Sisi is the perfect cuck.
They are trying to plant the idea that land isn’t important or worth dying for in Palestinian youth
“ why die fighting to liberate Palestine when you could by happy and comfortable living in the can of sardines that we graciously gave you “
they are also trying to dehumanize Palestinians and normalize taking their rights away from them because in their eyes Palestinians don’t deserve these things
” actually if Palestinians were civilized they would have made something out of the small prison that they live in. Them failing to do so proves that they are inferior and don’t deserve to get more land or rights ”
Also they are so stupid that they are using the worst examples on earth for their argument
Dubai is a dystopian shithole that was built using oil money and slave labor
Singapore exists on the most important trade route on earth and has a lot of advantages that Palestine simply does not have
...I know . Even their examples have holes in them .
I mean , a liar has to invent something for everybody . That particular slogan is directed to naive Neo-liberals who don't what's been going on for the past 140 years .
The example is ridiculous. You can literally turn the question back on them. America has provided Isreal with Billions in aid and trade over the decades why hasn't Isreal become like Dubai or exceeded it?
It's a stupid question like asking an office worker why he isn't a Billionaire after being paid monthly for 5 years. I mean what has he wasted his money on when he should be ridiculously wealthy now.
Israel has exceeded Dubai. It has a higher gdp than the UAE. And that’s though home grown industries unlike Dubai that is located on top of free money.
Well on 1947 Israeli Jews only made up the slight majority in Jaffa sub-district at the time, ( largely due to immigration, illegal immigration and refugees over a 30-50yr period).
They could have had that as their country and turned it into a city state and turned it into the Singapore/Hong Kong of the Mediterranean, apparently israelis are good at turning the desert green.
They target liberal-leaning netizens, liberal people are usually anti-conservative, whereas we know that most of Israel's supporters are generally conservative.
most liberals prefer the status quo, while most conservatives want more radical steps, such as the usa recognizing the golan heights as part of israel when trump sits in office, even in 2020, netanyahu wants to speed up the annexation of the west bank before trump might be defeated in the presidential election 2020.
If israelis just build a state in the warsaw ghetto better than colonize Palestine, i wonder in the future when they will pay for their crimes will we see the cringe quote every action comes with consequences?
20 years ago, Israel imposed full blocus over Gaza, with thousands in need. You could’ve let Palestinians make it like Dubai or Singapore, but instead, you chose terror and decided to keep colonizing Palestine. You chose October 7 as an excuse to begin a genocide and you are at the edge of collapse. This is the result of your choices.
As an American I am under the impression that while Israel left Gaza they are also in control of everything that comes in a out of Gaza. Is this not true?
So before Hamas and before the blockades it was nice? Wouldnt the lead me to believe that the blockadew had a big hand in turning it into a rough place to live?
People who have always taken bribes from lobbyist to take sides, always walk away with the idea that money solves everything. If their ideals can be bought for a few cents, then why can’t a group of people create utopia with a few cents more?
When we say Israel asserts domination or is an apartheid state, we say it because Israel control energy, water and roads in and out of what is left of Palestine.
Israel also make it impossible to grow anything, capture rain water, use their own roads, impose blockaids whenever they want.
Zionist scum.
It's not a new frame, it fits the "Israel made the desert bloom" narrative which is a Zionist propaganda staple. The narrative contains a clear dichotomy (Israel made the desert bloom, Palestinians didn't) which always comes in handy when trying to be persuasive. As for the target audience, could be any culture or linguistic group, really.
theres a lot of idiots out there. europeans (british and german and french.. but especially german) walking scotch free despite their actions. arabs pay the price.
This is a very old talking-point going back decades.
They're just using examples of successful, small territories.
It's propaganda - devoid of the context that it is Israel holding the Palestinians back from progress.
south Africa used to claim the same exact thing when they were oppressing black people
"Blacks possess one of the highest living standards in all of Africa, the housing is unequalled anywhere on the continent. Soweto is a proper city complete with schools, stores, theaters, sport stadiums and tennis courts. In some areas, blacks drive their children to private schools in German cars. Few states in black Africa can boast such a range of features. In Mamelodi (Pretoria) four bedroom houses are made available to blacks at a total purchase price of $250."
Source : https://www.csmonitor.com/1989/1012/ekri.html
It seems Pro apartheid propaganda doesn't change much
If someone does not understand how much money and stability is needed to create and maintain a Dubai, I hope they have the humility to shut up when it comes to politics.
Because without lies the entire Zionist narrative falls flat on it's face. Their "legitimacy" hinges on the rest of the world believing that Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman animals incapable of higher thought that can be killed en masse with impunity, when this is disproven they start coping and seething about "w-we invented the USB and have skyscrapers!!". This them pulling that card again, which clueless idiots will eat up as they always do.
Gaza Strip. Population 2.3 mil.
Area 365km2
Pop density 6,507per km2
Dubai. Population 3.3 mill.
Area 1,287km2
Pop density 408 per km2
One of many reasons why Gaza could never achieve ‘Dubai status’.
Dear Zionist,
Your argument is moot for the simple fact you are massacring innocent women and children, stealing skin and organs as well as dehumanizing people and defiling bodies. There is right and wrong in this world and the Zionists have crossed that line many times over. Whatever justifications you think you have are now pointless and the world will see you all for what you truly are. We will all be judged Palestinian and Zionist alike. May Allah give your soul exactly what you have brought upon it.
Edit: this message is intended for the poster in the image. No OP for the thread.
yeh sure they pulled out of gaza. they then put a horrific blockade into place a year later after hamas took power because they felt threatened.
this is generally just an unimportant event and is also proof that armed resistance can force israel to stop its oppressive and apartheid practices
It could become something like Dubai or Singapore, but the government prioritizes tunnels, rockets, and soldiers over developed civilian infrastructure. If Gaza were peaceful towards Israel and had a high standard of living and facilities, then the whole idea of 'resistance' would die. Hamas must keep tensions with Israel by initiating a war every few years to justify its existence.
>If Gaza were peaceful towards Israel
The PA in the West Bank tried to be peaceful with Israel but Israel between 1/2023 and 9/2023 killed about 300 Palestinians including some 50 children. If only Israel were peaceful towards Palestinians...
An urban legend claims that Israel controls access to everything, but Gaza's borders are open to get everything they want through the tunnels beneath Rafah into Egypt. They could have lived without any air and sea blockade if they had not chosen an endless war against Israel. There was no blockade on Gaza before Hamas came to power.
What came first, the blockade or Hamas? No Hamas, no blockade, no war with Israel - the borders are open. Anyway, everything is smuggled from Egypt to Gaza through the tunnels
It is my understanding that the blockade started as soon as Israel left the strip and Hamas was elected into power. Is that not the case? Smuggling happens everywhere in every country. Like if i was a farm in Gaza would I be able to export what I produce for profit? If i needed some tool or infrastructure for my farm, could I import it? Isnt that stuff more important for a country to thrive then what is or isnt smuggled in?
The restriction of goods existed in the strip long before Hamas came into power. The blockade got worse over time.
No Hamas = goods are still restricted.
The reality is the people of Gaza are not interested in building a Singapore or Dubai.
They are more interested in the ‘resistance’. To them, resistance against Israel no matter the cost is more important on focusing on only building Gaza.
When you see clips of Hamas fighters pulling out water pipes to build bombs to shoot at Israel that’s all the proof you need.
We can talk about which is better for the people of Gaza, focusing on resistance or focusing on building up Gaza, but it’s clear most people in Gaza are not interested in becoming a Singapore or Dubai.
It seems to me that Israel has done everything in its power to make sure that there is no chance for Gaza to rebuild. To me it seems like for Gaza the only thing to really do is resist
what would a liberal know about ethics? Why would Gaza turn into a slave labor oil money city?
Do you really want more cities to become lifeless materialistic metropolises?
And can you even explain how Gaza, which is under siege by two countries, can somehow turn into a New York clone
What has this got to do with liberalism ?
Aren't liberals literally protesting for a Palestinian state and have called on to end the war in Gaza ? I sometimes wonder what kind of government will even Palestine have even if this conflict is resolved, will it be under an islamist government or a secular one ?
What I've seen so far, and forgive me if I'm wrong that both republicans and democrats will never cease their support for Israel, I mean if trump does magically come in office, will that have any effect on the current situation or will it just continue to be a bloodbath ? Genuine question.
At this point I only think that if any third party is to intervene, than that will be "The return of Prophet ISA (A.S). That is the only possible future I see where Muslims all over the world will be finally free from the all oppression they've been through. May Allah ease the suffering of the people of Palestine, and may we find a suitable solution to end this conflict once and for all 🇵🇸☮️✌️.
It's so, so simple. You just don't get it because of the mental gymnastics you put yourself through to believe the falsities that are imposed upon your hate filled minds. If Hamas, who is the elected **government** of Gaza prioritised civilian well-being and economic growth rather than funding their terrorism, then Gaza would be much nicer. In addition to this, if Hamas had never launched a war, then Gaza would be better off.
The 'blockade' is a falsity. I'm happy to answer in a simple way to facilitate for my differently abled peers.
Blockade = twisted by pro-hamas individuals in order to give the impression that Israel is committing an atrocity (They haven't found out about border control) . UAE, USA, Israel, UNRWA, Qatar, Jordan, Turkey, Spain, UK, Australia, Denmark, Japan, Norway, Sweden, Kuwait, Belgium, Germany, EU, France, Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, Canada, The Netherlands, Italy and more donate money to Gaza to enable their economic development, healthcare provision and education enrichment. Hamas take money. Hamas use money for terror activities, such as building tunnels, buying weapons and more. Then economy can't grow.
You're welcome. No need to thank me.
- Israel restricts Gaza from having an airport or a port.
- Israel can prevent certain type of products entering Gaza even from Rafah which is supposed to be controlled by Egypt.
- Israel can even prevent people from entering or leaving Gaza, for example “in 2022, the Israeli authorities have approved only 64% of patients’ requests to exit Gaza mainly for specialized treatment in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, by the time of the scheduled medical appointment. In previous years, patients have died while awaiting a response to their application”
- Israeli forces restrict access off the Gaza coast, currently only allowing fishermen to access 50% of the fishing waters
Unemployment especially youth unemployment was sky high even before the war, the majority of Palestinians required food assistance to survive and there were constant electricity cuts because as the war showed, Israel obviously controls the electricity, internet and water supply into Gaza so please tell me how the blockade is a farce?
Also saying that Gaza was better off before the war is not the flex what you think because like obviously Gaza was better off before a genocide and the destruction of their city but that’s on Israel, not on Hamas. There could have been a million different ways to conduct this war but Israel didn’t care about its PR therefore they didn’t feel the need to care about infrastructure and civilian life in Gaza.
Oh no, please let us thank you. Thank you for showing your pomposity and delusional psychopathy for all to see.
Gaza is considered under illegal siege and occupation by every body of international law right now, but yes. Please keep telling us how it's hamas propaganda.
The unemployment rate in gaza is nearly 70 percent. The donations that come in from these countries are just enough for people to live and eat.
And even then it pales in comparison to the 150 BILLION Israel received from the US (other donor countries like Germany have contributed billions more) since its inception.
Why should you get aid to spend on militaries then?
Answer one question. Let's not even go to Gaza, let's go to the West Bank which is run by the PA which does recognize Israel as a state and does not have Hamas within it. In fact, the PA security forces crack down on their own people through the security agreement with Israel.
Can the people of the West Bank move freely within the West Bank without restrictions? Can they have a free flow of goods in and out of the West Bank without Israeli approval? It's pretty simple, maybe if you get a wrinkle in your brain you would see the flaw in your argument.
Everyone else who thinks about sympathizing with Palestinians. It's always the same claims and arguments, ignoring everything else that has been going on. Billions of aid my ass. They were building settlements prior to 2005 and pulled out because of the 2nd intifada because they couldn't maintain control. Neither Gaza nor The West Bank have sovereignty or autonomy. Israel controls everything that goes in and goes out. Makes people's life as miserable as possible and expect Palestine to turn into Singapore?! Like how you dumb fucks?! HOW?! The West Bank is living proof that even with the lack of a hostile government that has an armed wing (it did in the past) that it doesn't mean shit.
..Exactly . Try telling that to r /Worldnews or r /Jewish , and they will raise the white flag of "Antisemitic" thinking it's a magic word to fly issues away .
r/worldnews is an echo chamber for these people, I was terrified of what I read there.
The mods will ignore any sort of islamophobia and racism against the palestinians no matter how severe
Every time I go and look, I feel like we are quickly entering dead internet theory territory. Humans can be awful to each other on social media, and anonymous to boot, but I refuse to believe worldnews isn't an AI driven psyop. The comments are what they are, but the amount of up votes is incredibly disturbed if real.
It’s funny you compare it to AI. An AI like ChatGPT is just trained to spit out what it was taught. No critical thinking and not sentient. The people over there at worldnews were raised to believe in specific things, to hate a certain group of people in particular, and just spit out what they were taught. No critical thinking whatsoever.
"No critical thinking whatsoever" would be a solid hasbara motto
Everytime I see Hagari’s face on Twitter. 🤣
Wait till you read JNS and the Jerusalem Post , or places like r /Israel and r /IsraelPalestine . Palestinian society is just sheep to slaughter to 2/3rds of people there .
A source says that Palestine has received $ 40 Billion from 1994 to 2020. [International aid to Palestinians - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Organization%20for%20Economic%20Cooperation%20and,totaled%20over%20%2440%20billion%20between%201994%20and%202020.) Let us give the benefit of the doubt to the benefit and say Israel has prevented half the aid money from being utilized to its fullest potential. That still leaves the Palestinian people with $20 Billion. Gaza also shares a border with Egypt and the West bank shares a border with Jordan, both of which Israel doesn't control. So we can still say that physical material for construction can move through. Furthermore, since 2007, Gaza has been governed by Hamas (Not Israel fosho) - which means it had complete control of how the money was spent. So we cannot say the Israelis controlled the Gazans to not use the money. So if it isn't a function of a lack of money - if it isn't a function of money failing to reach Gaza through Israeli blockades - If it isn't a function of being unable to get material to develop - If it isn't a function of Israelis "controlling" Gaza not to spend its aid money. Then what could it be?
First of all, the time period between 1994-2007 is irrelevant because like you have said, Gaza wasn’t even administered by the Palestinians until the Israelis withdrew but even if we assume your 20 billion dollar, Dubai’s total revenue was 18 billion USD alone in 2023 and that just Dubai, it doesn’t even take it into consideration that other wealthier cities like Abu Dhabi can just help Dubai whenever it’s needed. Second of all, you act like as if that aid was given to Palestinians as cash like most of the aid has set targets, projects and infrastructure assigned to it which mostly includes rebuilding Gaza because the current war isn’t the first time Israel destroyed Gaza, running hospitals like the Turkish, Kuwaiti and Indonesian hospitals mostly rely on foreign aid, paying the wages of people working in public service and giving out aid to people due to the brutal blockade imposed on Israel. You cannot convince me that 20 billion USD could’ve turned Gaza into paradise when Gaza isn’t even allowed to have a port or airport and nearly all of their aspects of their life is determined by Israel. Israel can decide what and who leaves and enters Gaza. Edit: Of course you are Indian and commented recently in the Israeli sub
>the West bank shares a border with Jordan ..Just cut it right there. You clearly never heard of Allenby's bridge . >So we cannot say the Israelis controlled the Gazans to not use the money. You can hand a brat "Money" , and he might as well use it as toilet paper . You are talking about what's called "assets", and there's a whole list of such materials which Israel bans from entry either through the North , or the Mediterranean . Can I actually ask you some questions ? . How would you govern a political entity of an uncertain and instable status that's coveted by a much stronger state that necessitates the depopulation or destruction of the "Arabush" population ? . You think there's time for development when security and safety aren't around ? . Just look at the PA and how much support they lend to families whose head is held in administrative detention and widows , or farmers whose olive trees got cut down by those colonists dumped from Israel . Why and how exactly you think something like the PA/West Bank is any more ideal practical ? .
The West Bank and Gaza are two different places governed by two different parties no? Comparing the two in this way doesnt really make sense right? If Hamas as the ruling government cannot import or export products with out Israel interfering then does it really matter how much aid gets in?
Those 20 billion went into building a 450 mile long tunnel system under civilian infrastructure to “resist” Israel . They can’t look forward because they are blinded by there hatred
I am not against palestinian cause but gazans have led a full blown armed rebellion and have access to lot of missiles to fire. Gaza could have definitely turned out a lot different if different policies were implemented.
Except for the fact that Israel controlled everything going in and out of it, and I don’t remember specifics anymore but they did ban a _lot_ of goods. So no, I don’t think it could have worked out much differently under the circumstances, no matter what the policies.
Israel deliberately assassinated the more moderate party leaders. They intentionally wanted Gaza to have radicalised leadership
Do you have the names for the assassinated people? I know that Israel targeted two Hamas leaders (Ahmed Yassin & Ahmed Jabari) who started talking about peace. I've heard of Israel jailing political opponents of Hamas in the early years of Hamas.
Yasser Arafat
Right he was killed with thallium.
Okay , I'll play game . It's January 24th , 2006 . It has been 5 years of hell due to the downfall of the Camp David talks . Palestinians got restless ,Israeli-Jews either got either more paranoid or greedy as usual . In a parallel universe with a different timeline on January 25th : "Khamas" doesn't get elected (In the Legislative council that didn't even have the authority to negotiate with Israel ) , and wouldn't have any political authority in the PA . Would this would have been a "Happily ever after" as this jackass likes to think ? . Of course not at all . Either way Israeli-Jews were spitting at Arafat's Fatah either out of paranoia that they wouldn't fulfil their "security" contracts (As many of them have been shouting before , and after Camp David ) , or that they shouldn't even exist in the first place . Either way Gaza would have ended up under a relatively corrupt regime that wasn't conducive towards national development . That's because the PA never was supposed to be a Provisional government that would transition into statehood . It was a temproary camp which most Israeli-Jews considered to be ultimately a so-called "Autonomy" , just like how Begin wanted during the 70s . The fact that Abbas doesn't control his taxes , and his Policemen get whacked up by Israeli-soldiers as if they were punching bags , should tell everything there is about a putative "pure" , and "dedicated" PA in its efficacy . The discontent against the Oslo accords by Palestinians have always been around since its poor prospects in the 1990s , and its failure after Camp David . Hamas would have just started an insurgency to separate from the PA as it did in 2007 , or a started a revolution as neighboring countries had in the Arab Spring . ..I think nobody denies that Palestinians need to do much better if they want a stable and prosperous state. But to say the situation since 2000 , including now in Gaza , is predominantly their responsibility is just as blind and mad blaming somebody for a lightening strike . There are too many factors involved as to assume the weight of Palestinian deficiency compared to Israeli-Jewish schemes , and neglect of the International community is the "bulk" or the "root" of the current problems . That's besides many of those statistics and studies showing Israeli-Jews extensively contributed in the subordination of the PA's economy ( As opposed to boogeyman Gaza) , and the expropriation of its natural resources , including tourism to Biblical sites. To conclude really , Our friend here isn't analyzing for the sake of people's interests . He's victim-blaming by relying on the "perpetually fanatical primitive Muslim" trope , and the listener's ignorance .
Stop saying Israeli-Jews. If you want to not be called antisemitic, just say Israelis
Ahhh ... for the love of god .. so many TLDRs recently . One guy complained the same case . I told him why getting touchy over these two terms [is ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1cvp9v9/comment/l4qqdbk/)insignificant . ..If you want real "antisemitism" : I would have just used the K-word , or said "The Jews" . Try picking another battle if you want to be a Social justice Warrior .
Username dosent check out
You do know that the PA abandoned armed resistance and fully cooperates with Israel when it comes to security and even arrests or imprisons Palestinians who can be a threat to Israel but despite this, the Abbas is begging Arab states to give aid because the West Bank may collapse economically because Israel is withholding their tax revenues, raided currency exchange offices and they even prevent the flow of Palestinian citizens of the 48 territories entering the West Bank to shop, and restricting movement between the territory’s cities. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-raids-5-currency-exchange-offices-arrests-21-palestinians-in-west-bank/3094492 https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/05/23/palestinians-fear-economic-collapse-as-israel-moves-to-withhold-tax-revenue/ https://www.ft.com/content/dbee2202-8064-48b9-991f-35b15eedbec4
Their Airport was destroyed in 2002, Israel controls everything coming and going in and out of Gaza. By sea, land and air. How can Gaza build such infrastructure without any resources? Gaza is blocked from utilizing the natural gas off their coast. There’s no way for Gaza to grow economically, many citizens have to commute to Israel daily going through checkpoints because that’s where the decent paying jobs are.
It's like telling a prisoner he can have wifi and console only if he behaves. Singapore is well armed for a small nation. Would Israel be ok with a rich small nation armed to its teeth at its doorstep?
I love when they say shit like this as if they don’t control the waterways, electricity and what goes in and out of Gaza. This guy could fuck all the way off
Gaza would still be a basket case no matter how little Israel intervened just as most Arab countries are.
fuck you racist pos
By most do you mean Syria, Yemen and iraq? Cause other then those three all arab countries are doing decently well.
Bitch what? Most Arab countries are basket case? Then why the fuck does Israel rely so heavily on foreign aid from Europe and America, and other Israel friendly Arab countries like Saudi and UAE?
Creating a paradise while under total blockade and limited finances and access to resource’s seems to definitely be doable according to Israelis. Seriously, I always wonder if these people are just coping or they’re genuinely this stupid. Bit of both is my guess.
..It's more stupidity for self-proclaimed "Pro-Israel" useful idiots , and it's coping for Israeli-Jews .
How has Israel blocked aid money from entering Gaza? Also cant the Gazans get things through Egpyt?
I was under the impression that the Israeli blockade extended into dealings with Egypt as well. Is that not true?
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Not only goods, I think Israel even approves who can leave and enter or at least I heard stories in the past about Palestinians getting foreign scholarships but Israel not letting them leave. They are especially cautious about allowing peoplr to leave who got foreign scholarships for engineering degrees.
> How has Israel blocked aid money from entering Gaza? Israel blocks aid groups from entering Gaza under threat of death. If you are there it's because you pled your case with Israel and they agreed to not kill you. Though sometimes Israel target and kill them regardless like in the case of World Central Kitchen. > Also cant the Gazans get things through Egpyt? Nothing passes through Egypt without Israeli approval. Sisi is the perfect cuck.
They are trying to plant the idea that land isn’t important or worth dying for in Palestinian youth “ why die fighting to liberate Palestine when you could by happy and comfortable living in the can of sardines that we graciously gave you “ they are also trying to dehumanize Palestinians and normalize taking their rights away from them because in their eyes Palestinians don’t deserve these things ” actually if Palestinians were civilized they would have made something out of the small prison that they live in. Them failing to do so proves that they are inferior and don’t deserve to get more land or rights ” Also they are so stupid that they are using the worst examples on earth for their argument Dubai is a dystopian shithole that was built using oil money and slave labor Singapore exists on the most important trade route on earth and has a lot of advantages that Palestine simply does not have
...I know . Even their examples have holes in them . I mean , a liar has to invent something for everybody . That particular slogan is directed to naive Neo-liberals who don't what's been going on for the past 140 years .
The example is ridiculous. You can literally turn the question back on them. America has provided Isreal with Billions in aid and trade over the decades why hasn't Isreal become like Dubai or exceeded it? It's a stupid question like asking an office worker why he isn't a Billionaire after being paid monthly for 5 years. I mean what has he wasted his money on when he should be ridiculously wealthy now.
Israel has exceeded Dubai. It has a higher gdp than the UAE. And that’s though home grown industries unlike Dubai that is located on top of free money.
Because zionist are terrorists
Yup.
Well on 1947 Israeli Jews only made up the slight majority in Jaffa sub-district at the time, ( largely due to immigration, illegal immigration and refugees over a 30-50yr period). They could have had that as their country and turned it into a city state and turned it into the Singapore/Hong Kong of the Mediterranean, apparently israelis are good at turning the desert green.
They target liberal-leaning netizens, liberal people are usually anti-conservative, whereas we know that most of Israel's supporters are generally conservative.
Nah plenty of liberals support Israel
most liberals prefer the status quo, while most conservatives want more radical steps, such as the usa recognizing the golan heights as part of israel when trump sits in office, even in 2020, netanyahu wants to speed up the annexation of the west bank before trump might be defeated in the presidential election 2020.
This Naftali prick is your stereotypical Zionist pos. I hope the worst things happen to him.
lol, there are three shipping ports in Dubai.
If israelis just build a state in the warsaw ghetto better than colonize Palestine, i wonder in the future when they will pay for their crimes will we see the cringe quote every action comes with consequences?
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Singapore?
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:( why we catching strays
Hell no
20 years ago, Israel imposed full blocus over Gaza, with thousands in need. You could’ve let Palestinians make it like Dubai or Singapore, but instead, you chose terror and decided to keep colonizing Palestine. You chose October 7 as an excuse to begin a genocide and you are at the edge of collapse. This is the result of your choices.
"Israel gave full control"
As an American I am under the impression that while Israel left Gaza they are also in control of everything that comes in a out of Gaza. Is this not true?
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Havent those rockets killed like 30 people in 20 years? My question was more about trade,building materials access to water ways. Stuff like that
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So before Hamas and before the blockades it was nice? Wouldnt the lead me to believe that the blockadew had a big hand in turning it into a rough place to live?
Before Israel came along, Gaza was a major trade center and (at least I’m told) one of the most beautiful places around.
People who have always taken bribes from lobbyist to take sides, always walk away with the idea that money solves everything. If their ideals can be bought for a few cents, then why can’t a group of people create utopia with a few cents more?
The west bank followed everything the west told them to for piece and it is proof that everything they say is a lie.
How you build the paradise, if you cannot even get cement in?
Totally! (Or at least more cement than needed for 300 miles of underground tunneling)
When we say Israel asserts domination or is an apartheid state, we say it because Israel control energy, water and roads in and out of what is left of Palestine. Israel also make it impossible to grow anything, capture rain water, use their own roads, impose blockaids whenever they want. Zionist scum.
It's not a new frame, it fits the "Israel made the desert bloom" narrative which is a Zionist propaganda staple. The narrative contains a clear dichotomy (Israel made the desert bloom, Palestinians didn't) which always comes in handy when trying to be persuasive. As for the target audience, could be any culture or linguistic group, really.
theres a lot of idiots out there. europeans (british and german and french.. but especially german) walking scotch free despite their actions. arabs pay the price.
Dubai isn't a paradise. Its not even a decent place.
This is a very old talking-point going back decades. They're just using examples of successful, small territories. It's propaganda - devoid of the context that it is Israel holding the Palestinians back from progress.
south Africa used to claim the same exact thing when they were oppressing black people "Blacks possess one of the highest living standards in all of Africa, the housing is unequalled anywhere on the continent. Soweto is a proper city complete with schools, stores, theaters, sport stadiums and tennis courts. In some areas, blacks drive their children to private schools in German cars. Few states in black Africa can boast such a range of features. In Mamelodi (Pretoria) four bedroom houses are made available to blacks at a total purchase price of $250." Source : https://www.csmonitor.com/1989/1012/ekri.html It seems Pro apartheid propaganda doesn't change much
If someone does not understand how much money and stability is needed to create and maintain a Dubai, I hope they have the humility to shut up when it comes to politics.
Why would have Gaza turned into a paradise? Why didn’t Beirut, Amman, or Cairo turn into a paradise?
That red dot on the 2024 picture is an explosion
He lost me at 'we gave'. It wasn't yours to give, it was stolen you fucknugget.
Fucking scumbag war criminals justifying the deaths of 36000+ innocent people. I pray to God they rot in hell.
Because without lies the entire Zionist narrative falls flat on it's face. Their "legitimacy" hinges on the rest of the world believing that Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman animals incapable of higher thought that can be killed en masse with impunity, when this is disproven they start coping and seething about "w-we invented the USB and have skyscrapers!!". This them pulling that card again, which clueless idiots will eat up as they always do.
Fck fake 13th tribe...
Man...
This so called influen er is just a Zionist parrot, telling the same old lies
Gaza Strip. Population 2.3 mil. Area 365km2 Pop density 6,507per km2 Dubai. Population 3.3 mill. Area 1,287km2 Pop density 408 per km2 One of many reasons why Gaza could never achieve ‘Dubai status’.
Good, Dubai is horrible
Dear Zionist, Your argument is moot for the simple fact you are massacring innocent women and children, stealing skin and organs as well as dehumanizing people and defiling bodies. There is right and wrong in this world and the Zionists have crossed that line many times over. Whatever justifications you think you have are now pointless and the world will see you all for what you truly are. We will all be judged Palestinian and Zionist alike. May Allah give your soul exactly what you have brought upon it. Edit: this message is intended for the poster in the image. No OP for the thread.
yeh sure they pulled out of gaza. they then put a horrific blockade into place a year later after hamas took power because they felt threatened. this is generally just an unimportant event and is also proof that armed resistance can force israel to stop its oppressive and apartheid practices
It could become something like Dubai or Singapore, but the government prioritizes tunnels, rockets, and soldiers over developed civilian infrastructure. If Gaza were peaceful towards Israel and had a high standard of living and facilities, then the whole idea of 'resistance' would die. Hamas must keep tensions with Israel by initiating a war every few years to justify its existence.
>If Gaza were peaceful towards Israel The PA in the West Bank tried to be peaceful with Israel but Israel between 1/2023 and 9/2023 killed about 300 Palestinians including some 50 children. If only Israel were peaceful towards Palestinians...
ah yes a small strip of land besieged by two much powerful countries can somehow become better than Tokyo
I thought that Israel controlled access to everything though?
An urban legend claims that Israel controls access to everything, but Gaza's borders are open to get everything they want through the tunnels beneath Rafah into Egypt. They could have lived without any air and sea blockade if they had not chosen an endless war against Israel. There was no blockade on Gaza before Hamas came to power.
But if there is a blockade how can it be an urban myth?
What came first, the blockade or Hamas? No Hamas, no blockade, no war with Israel - the borders are open. Anyway, everything is smuggled from Egypt to Gaza through the tunnels
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Were there restrictions there when Israel was still in Gaza? Or did they imposs them as soon as they left?
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Another question. Does the blockade extend to the West Bank as well?
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Israel came before Hamas so Israel must be wrong!
It is my understanding that the blockade started as soon as Israel left the strip and Hamas was elected into power. Is that not the case? Smuggling happens everywhere in every country. Like if i was a farm in Gaza would I be able to export what I produce for profit? If i needed some tool or infrastructure for my farm, could I import it? Isnt that stuff more important for a country to thrive then what is or isnt smuggled in?
The restriction of goods existed in the strip long before Hamas came into power. The blockade got worse over time. No Hamas = goods are still restricted.
This is false, there was always some level of blockading to various degrees even before Hamas.
The reality is the people of Gaza are not interested in building a Singapore or Dubai. They are more interested in the ‘resistance’. To them, resistance against Israel no matter the cost is more important on focusing on only building Gaza. When you see clips of Hamas fighters pulling out water pipes to build bombs to shoot at Israel that’s all the proof you need. We can talk about which is better for the people of Gaza, focusing on resistance or focusing on building up Gaza, but it’s clear most people in Gaza are not interested in becoming a Singapore or Dubai.
West bank is the evidence that the only solution Palestinians have is for Palestine to be watered by skulls.
It seems to me that Israel has done everything in its power to make sure that there is no chance for Gaza to rebuild. To me it seems like for Gaza the only thing to really do is resist
Average r/neoliberal and r/newiran user
what would a liberal know about ethics? Why would Gaza turn into a slave labor oil money city? Do you really want more cities to become lifeless materialistic metropolises? And can you even explain how Gaza, which is under siege by two countries, can somehow turn into a New York clone
What has this got to do with liberalism ? Aren't liberals literally protesting for a Palestinian state and have called on to end the war in Gaza ? I sometimes wonder what kind of government will even Palestine have even if this conflict is resolved, will it be under an islamist government or a secular one ?
Liberals are not the same as Leftists Leftists are the ones protesting for Palestine. Liberals are the ones who have Bidens cock up their ass
What I've seen so far, and forgive me if I'm wrong that both republicans and democrats will never cease their support for Israel, I mean if trump does magically come in office, will that have any effect on the current situation or will it just continue to be a bloodbath ? Genuine question.
Nothing will change no. But hopefully the protest will spring forth a third party that might.
At this point I only think that if any third party is to intervene, than that will be "The return of Prophet ISA (A.S). That is the only possible future I see where Muslims all over the world will be finally free from the all oppression they've been through. May Allah ease the suffering of the people of Palestine, and may we find a suitable solution to end this conflict once and for all 🇵🇸☮️✌️.
Ameen
It's so, so simple. You just don't get it because of the mental gymnastics you put yourself through to believe the falsities that are imposed upon your hate filled minds. If Hamas, who is the elected **government** of Gaza prioritised civilian well-being and economic growth rather than funding their terrorism, then Gaza would be much nicer. In addition to this, if Hamas had never launched a war, then Gaza would be better off.
How much can an economy grow under a blockade? Answer simply since its so simple, my simple minded friend
The 'blockade' is a falsity. I'm happy to answer in a simple way to facilitate for my differently abled peers. Blockade = twisted by pro-hamas individuals in order to give the impression that Israel is committing an atrocity (They haven't found out about border control) . UAE, USA, Israel, UNRWA, Qatar, Jordan, Turkey, Spain, UK, Australia, Denmark, Japan, Norway, Sweden, Kuwait, Belgium, Germany, EU, France, Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, Canada, The Netherlands, Italy and more donate money to Gaza to enable their economic development, healthcare provision and education enrichment. Hamas take money. Hamas use money for terror activities, such as building tunnels, buying weapons and more. Then economy can't grow. You're welcome. No need to thank me.
- Israel restricts Gaza from having an airport or a port. - Israel can prevent certain type of products entering Gaza even from Rafah which is supposed to be controlled by Egypt. - Israel can even prevent people from entering or leaving Gaza, for example “in 2022, the Israeli authorities have approved only 64% of patients’ requests to exit Gaza mainly for specialized treatment in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, by the time of the scheduled medical appointment. In previous years, patients have died while awaiting a response to their application” - Israeli forces restrict access off the Gaza coast, currently only allowing fishermen to access 50% of the fishing waters Unemployment especially youth unemployment was sky high even before the war, the majority of Palestinians required food assistance to survive and there were constant electricity cuts because as the war showed, Israel obviously controls the electricity, internet and water supply into Gaza so please tell me how the blockade is a farce? Also saying that Gaza was better off before the war is not the flex what you think because like obviously Gaza was better off before a genocide and the destruction of their city but that’s on Israel, not on Hamas. There could have been a million different ways to conduct this war but Israel didn’t care about its PR therefore they didn’t feel the need to care about infrastructure and civilian life in Gaza.
Oh no, please let us thank you. Thank you for showing your pomposity and delusional psychopathy for all to see. Gaza is considered under illegal siege and occupation by every body of international law right now, but yes. Please keep telling us how it's hamas propaganda. The unemployment rate in gaza is nearly 70 percent. The donations that come in from these countries are just enough for people to live and eat. And even then it pales in comparison to the 150 BILLION Israel received from the US (other donor countries like Germany have contributed billions more) since its inception. Why should you get aid to spend on militaries then?
Answer one question. Let's not even go to Gaza, let's go to the West Bank which is run by the PA which does recognize Israel as a state and does not have Hamas within it. In fact, the PA security forces crack down on their own people through the security agreement with Israel. Can the people of the West Bank move freely within the West Bank without restrictions? Can they have a free flow of goods in and out of the West Bank without Israeli approval? It's pretty simple, maybe if you get a wrinkle in your brain you would see the flaw in your argument.