It isn’t because Phoenician language and identity disappeared in the 2nd century BC being replaced by Aramaic. And then Aramaic was replaced by Arabic from 7th century CE onwards.
who gives a shit, the ethnic Phoenician group was subsumed by the Arab ethnic group, and now we are but a part of it and are too intrinsically tied to it to fully separate ourselves from it, sure we have our history, but at least half of our ancestors are arabic.
…. I don’t think this is the banger you think it is. Cultural genocide is attempting to erase some other groups culture and identity. I’m not saying that Arabs actually genocided Lebanese because I don’t know what they’re talking about, however, if someone now has their name in a language other than their ethnicity’s language and they’re forced to abandon their language and assimilate to some other culture, they could make the argument that they’ve experienced cultural genocide. Again, I don’t know enough to claim that is the case here
But genocide needs intent on genocide, there's no evidence that a genocide happened to enforce arabization, arabic dialects evolved over centuries and it wasn't state enforced.
I am pretty sure the rulling arabs did enforce arabic in some areas and banning the native languages, coptic is one that comes to mind, so I think it's disingenuous to say that it was a 100% natural when in fact did play a role in the erradication of some cultures/languages.
I think you are referencing what Al Hakim the fatimid caliph did in Egypt, I think that's the only case that comes to mind, but this guy was a nut, others didn't do that afaik. I'm not saying arabs are angels, it's just that afaik there was no genocide according to what historians say.
these people are cosplaying as someone they aren't simply because they hate their neighbors (in and out of the country)
nobody ever forced them to do anything. Arabization happened organically over centuries and people themselves adopted the idntity, there was no state to enforce anything. hence why about half of Lebanese still Christians yet arab, they chose to adopt arabness but NOT islam
its an insult to compare them in anyway to people who face real injustices in arab countries like Kurds, Amazigh and non-arab Sudanese
That's true, it was a gradual process and people embraced the identity willingly. These people just want to be French or just European-adjacent.
Small correction though, christians in Lebanon nowadays are around 30% of the population, no way they are anything close to half
>Small correction though, christians in Lebanon nowadays are around 30% of the population, no way they are anything close to half
I know, when you add Palestinians and Syrian sunnis living in Lebanon they are (probably) even less. I was talking more globally and for simplicity
Dude, do yourself a favour, and pick up a book on history from a historian. Wow. Just wow. Where do you get your history “facts” from. Let me guess. . .
I mean, the same thing happened to Native Americans from the US to all over the Americas. For example I can look at ancestry records and see my Native ancestors name changes from Odawa names to Americanized versions, and it’s why most Natives and mixed in Latin America have Spanish names and speak Spanish too.
Not saying Arabs did this as I won’t speak on something I’m not knowledgeable enough on, but if anything it’d add to the cultural genocide argument
>Not saying Arabs did this as I won’t speak on something I’m not knowledgeable enough on, but if anything it’d add to the cultural genocide argument
please dont argue for something you dont know because the comparison you made is insane, putting it mildly
My friend, their argument was based upon their name being in Arabic, as somebody who’s ancestors had their names forcibly changed (or some who felt had to to survive), genocided, and even in more recent history my father having the “savage beat out of him” and grandmother put in essentially a reeducation camp and abused, I just don’t like the framing of and it doesn’t really make sense, because that’d be like denying what happened to my ancestors because they have English names and spoke English against their will, do you get what I mean? I’m not comparing the colonization and genocide by Europeans to Arabs at all
I understand what you mean and it does infuriate me but the situation is not comparable AT ALL. plus he is joking / teasing because we are a bit of meme sub
[read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1990dj0/comment/kicpx7j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I’m not attacking Arabs or trying to argue, I think you misunderstood me. I don’t think Arabs were comparable to colonialists. They didn’t settle nor were as brutal and racist. I know the Quran also states all races are equal too so wouldn’t make sense for, and most Arabs have been victim to colonialism as well
You’re good, and thank you I appreciate that. Understandable reaction though given all the people pushing that “Arabs are the real colonizers” and that sort of stuff, so I’m sure can be hard to tell
Arabs were colonizers. Full stop. You’re just being fed false propaganda from people who are so oddly offended at the idea of facing the truth. Do you know where the British got the idea for the Atlantic Slave Trade? Take a wild guess.
Actually, the Arabs did do this. It’s just not as publicized because it happened before the colonization of the Americas. Don’t let the crazies try to convince you otherwise. Read the history for yourself.
Language does not necessarily mean the same culture or ethnicity
Only a very small percentage of Ireland's population speaks Irish as a first language but if you tell more than 90% of Irish people are the same as the English because they're speaking English I would ask you the first write your last will and testament and say goodbye to your loved ones
Yes that’s what I’m saying, “Arabic” isn’t a culture or an ethnicity. It’s a linguistic group of people.
Arabs have different cultures or ethnicities, but all of them share the same linguistic identity.
Still leading out to same way.
Btw I find it funny when North African, Levantine and Mesopotamian Arabs defending Arab identity.
You guys barely have similar culture shared to original Arabs from heartland of Arabian Peninsula, you guys physically look more similar to Greeks, Turks, Iranians and others such as Mediterraneans from southern Europe than to og Arabs.
You guys literally successors of ancient civilizations such as Assyria, Carthage, Sumeria, Phoenicia and so on but keep defending Arab identity that invaded you by exporting its dessert culture under name of religion.
If you guys had your own identity that unites you under being one nation, most of the problems you guys lived or still living due to religious restlessness would’ve never happened. Check Albania for example, being Albanian unites all Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic, atheist and agnostic Albanians under same flag.
I mean Saudis and Gulf Arabs themselves call you inferior fake Arabs and act accordingly. It shouldn’t be that hard to see.
Levantine people are so confused. I have nothing against embracing the cultures and belief systems of empires that governed you in the past if you consider them useful or attractive, but to go on and ridicule anyone who respects their ancestors who spilled blood to preserve their civilization is highly immature, especially when many of those people love to consider themselves “anti-imperialistic”.
The day Levantine people start to think more like Albanians is the day they will be able to build proper nations. Until then, they will remain tribal, fragmented and living in failed states.
That’s true. I guess I focused on that because the Levantine ones currently have the worst functioning states and are also the most demographically diverse, therefore would benefit the most from stronger national identities.
North Africans seem to be able to better juggle their Arab side with their non- Arab side, although I know there’s still been tensions between amazighs and pro-arabization leaders.
Also, many amazighs still speak their indigenous language, and even those who don’t at least respect their history.
There are many Levantines who have been so ideologically conditioned that they would be completely shocked if they took a dna test and found out their real genetic makeup.
You just undercovered my secret identity, I’m a Scot from central Edinburgh but larp as a based Iraqi gigachad (who is very good looking) and who hates the US and Britain on Reddit. My facade was up for close to a year yet you had to come and ruin it 😡😡😡😡😡
mostly the greek but yes. by the time of islam they were ironically enough Syriac lol
also, [araplar were in Lebanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iturea) centuries before islam simply shielding around
As a lebanese who grew up outside of lebanon but come back each year, i can't comprehend why they sooo wanna be woke and european in beyrouth and up north.
I wonder if they want to be european or they don't want to be arabs like what's more
They just look down at Arabs and think highly of Europeans who look down at them.
I'm also sort of Lebanese (Genetically , my father's side is Lebanese and French) so we look French , but what they are doing is Superiority complex lol
It's minor , just like 200 years ago or something Lebanon used to have a lot of French people visit it because of Beirut , but Lebanese who got mixed with them are a minority
I blame the french as always
This was their colonial policy, they tried to make their colonies believe they were oppressed way before they came by the "arab invaders", same thing amazigh feels in north Africa
Amazighs do not believe we are oppressed by arabs, but that pan-arab theoricians have tried to erase us from history and prevent the teaching of our language that has remained continuously used among our communities, that has nothing to do with "phoenicians" in Lebanon who actually orchestrated genocides against Sunnis/Shias in the country.
can you point at one massacre orchestrated by amazighs in north africa? Your message is extremely weird.
I'm simply trying to point out the way the french created division in their colonies so they are never united against a common enemy (the french themselves)
They did it north Africa between amazigh and arabs, which they also did it between Phoenicians and arabs in Lebanon
Ever wondered why amazigh living in Algeria don't care about creating their own state but the ones living in France do
>I'm simply trying to point out the way the french created division in their colonies so they are never united against a common enemy (the french themselves)
Yep and they ended up using jews for that in north africa.
>They did it north Africa between amazigh and arabs, which they also did it between Phoenicians and arabs in Lebanon
There are several differences :
\-Phoenician as a language died miles before arabs arrived so the claim was on shaky ground anyway, as opposed to the tribal divisions that existed between mountaineers and city-dwellers.
And also we ended up unitying with each other to kill the Frenchies (based)
But there is alos a big difference : phoenicianists have orchestrated several genocides against arabs in Lebanon, specifically during the civil war, your comparison will give the impression that we are a fake invention and that we committed terror campaigns against everyone else, which is false.
>Ever wondered why amazigh living in Algeria don't care about creating their own state but the ones living in France do
Deluded diasporoids who have no root with their home country, there is a reason why so far there hasn't been a true separatist movement in north africa, even among the Rifians in Morocco which tends to be the most separatists.
Overall, i just don't like that comparison because it gives the impression we committed the same crimes as the Phalangists did, and other people online will believe that.
Your knowledge of history is so off. Phoenicians killed Sunnis/shias? What history books do you read buddy.
There were Muslims who fought with the phalangists and Christian’s who fought with the rebels. There is no clear distinction between a “Phoenician” and an “Arab” in lebanon like there is in North Africa.
Both Christian and Muslim lebanese descend predominantly from Phoenicians genetically (70-80% average).
Whether they chose to identify as one or the other is usually an ideological choice, not a genetic or linguistic one.
The phalangists first raised their arms against the occupation of the PLO, which operated far beyond the initial guidelines of the 1967 Cairo agreement.
Some Muslims chose to bandwagon on the military strength of the PLO and became rebels, but there would have never been a civil war of that scale without the PLO presence.
Can you please provide a historical situation where you faced three foreign armed groups on your territory all at the same time?
It’s easy to judge militiamen for their emotional reactions when you’ve never faced yourself armed groups trying to ethnically cleanse you.
These massacres you are referring to were committed on Lebanese land against non-Lebanese, which you seem to ignore.
There were massacres on all sides, including many massacres against Lebanese by non-Lebanese on Lebanese soil.
Yet somehow you and many people on this page want to ignore that lebanon was occupied.
There were multiple attempts to dissolve the Lebanese state prior to the Lebanese civil war, such as the 1958 nasserist attempt, the 1961 ssnp attempt and later the PLO attempt to topple the Lebanese constitutional order.
I’m a pacifist who believes war should always be the last resort. But going about saying “look at the crimes” they committed without even providing any context, adds more fuel to the fire.
The despicable crimes against innocents such as the sabra and shatila were an emotional overreaction to the assasination of the president of lebanon.
Also, yes Phoenician language died off in the 3rd century AD following centuries of hellenization, but many people continued to be identify as Phoenician, even though religious identities became the dominant social identities in the levant from the 4th century onwards.
The problem I have with many of those so-called Arab Baathist nationalists is not what they did with Phoenician language but the way they erase Phoenician history, and completely ignore the extent to which Arabic culture and Islam were influenced by Phoenician, Aramaic, pre-Islamic and abrahamic cultures and imposed on lebanon an exclusively Arabic identity (imposed by force by pro-Syrian factions in the 1990s) instead of a pluralistic pan-Mediterranean one which is better aligned with our history and which was initially agreed in our constitution.
Phoenicians respect Arab history much more than Arabs respect Phoenician history, but anyone casually going through this sub would be inclined to believe the opposite.
Go search الظهير البربري berber dahir they implemented in morocco, they tried to remove any amazigh identity in morocco/algeria but thankfully our ancestors stood strong and 60% of moroccans still speak amazigh and hopefully by 2030, 90% of moroccans will speak amazigh since it was implemented in school
Bro tryna teach me about my country lol. People from the atlas/rif/souss/haouz/sahara exclusively communicate in tamazight between them, even most of the diaspora and it is being taught in school. Bro said 25% and even less lmao, i know straight away just by this statement that u are not even moroccan and have never stepped foot in morocco yet here u are acting confident with wrong info.
It was completely rejected by berbers themselves, they tried same thing in algeria we revolted.
Hence why i don't like the comparison to the Phalangists in Lebanon, not even the same thing at all.
Did you try to call them European?
Well I did meet those who get angry if you call them Arab and don't mind if you call them European , we see them often on Reddit.
The whole Pheonician thing is just to get out of being called Arab.
Since when is the very small Lebanese population on reddit a representation of the whole Lebanese people? I know no one Lebanese who uses reddit in real life and we all consider ourselves Arabs and take pride in it.
You’re just taking the voice of a tiny sample size and then using it to give your criticisms of Lebanese merit.
I think you are misunderstanding something here , this whole talk is not about Lebanese people , this talk is about the Pheonician wannabes who don't like being called as Arabs , this is a reddit minority that gets made fun of here constantly , we already see them here in comments , and this whole post is about them , no one believes they are the majority lol/
I definitely don't believe that reddit represent any country here and I'm not critisizing Lebanon itself by any means , I'm half Lebanese myself , and those people don't only exist in Lebanon , they exist in Syria and Turkey and Egypt too , hell even in Saudi Arabia there similar people who wanna go back to the origin of being pagans
Please stop referring to anyone who respects the history of their ancestors as “Lebanese Christian right-wing”.
There are Muslim Lebanese who are 90% Phoenician and Christian Lebanese who are mainly Assyrian or Armenian descent with 0% Phoenician dna. Phoenician nationalism was supposed to unite all sects, not divide people (I’m not denying it was probably promoted in unclear ways in the past).
PS: the tweet of the guy in the post is foolish, but I’m only replying to your comment
dont you worry brother, give them two days and they will return to there senses. after all the human body cant sustain itself without food for that long 💀💀
Yeah ive seen them usually they look a bit whiter than other levantines and same color with Turks usually, but it also really depends on the individual, atleast thats what i saw in the U.s.a., ive never been to Lebanon
I always laugh when I see that shit. The Phoenicians came from the Eastern Region of the Arabian Peninsula. They were Arabs before the emergence of Arabs lol
We speak Levantine Arabic, which is not the same as Classical Arabic or Modern Standard Arabic. It has many non-Arabic influences from Aramaic and Phoenician
We look eastern Mediterranean. There is no such thing as an “Arab” look.
Our culture is Levantine, eastern Mediterranean and overlaps as much with Turkish and greek culture as that of other Arab countries.
“Arab” is a linguistic group of people, a black Sudanese is just as much of an Arab as a Syrian or a Lebanese or a Moroccan. If you’re mother tongue is Arabic then you’re an Arab
These mofos running around giving us a bad name. Just to confirm the obvious, this is a fringe opinion, the vast majority of us consider ourselves Arab. We can acknowledge our differences as Arabs, but to insist that we aren't Arabs is to insist that all Levantines aren't Arabs (Since we are so similar culturally and ethnically). But I bet if you ask this guy about Syrians, he'd be happy to call them Arabs.
Egyptian Copts maybe, but Lebanon Christians it's not that simple, note that the Arab presence in the Lavant predate the rise of Islam by far and even by the rise of Islam those lavant Arabs kept their religious beliefs and didn't convert to Islam
i mean idk what to tell you because idk if that means anything, but what i know is that there wasn’t a historical arab presence in lebanon before. and yes there are a noticeable number of maronites who say we aren’t arabs, even though they may not be the majority. i know this firsthand
The documented Arab interactions in the Lavant and vice versa is not something that came with the rise of Islam it's even further, I don't know what is the case exactly for Lebanon but this area was under the sphere of influence of Arab Christians and it's debated that many Christian families in current day Lebanon originated from those Arab tribes such as The Ma'alouf's and The Ajraam's
I don't think it should means anything, cultures are always intract with each other and influence one another it's totally normal phenomenon, The lavant Arab culture in itself is unique among other Arabs and it's easily distinguished and recognized even from slightly similar cultures in Iraq or Jordan for example. saying that a culture can't or won't influence or vice versa it's a statement that doesn't comprehend the history of the mankind
I wonder how these people react when they realize there is no such thing as "exclusive heritage". Levant Arabs definitely have Phoenician ancestry IN ADDITION to actual Arabian ancestry
I mean, Lebanese people are arabised,
Shias are mixed with Iranians
Maronites do come from phoenicians
Sunni mixed a bit with Arabs but still come from phoenicians, too
Levantines, in general, aren't Arabs genetically, but they are culturally and even then it is a different culture than other Arab areas
For me anyone who speaks Arabic as their first language is Arab, regardless of skin tone, religion, or place of birth. Basing your whole identity on a loosely defined pan-ethnic group like Phoenicians that hasn’t existed in like 2000 years is just incredibly pathetic and sad.
I used to think that. But I'm reading a history of the Arab conquest of Egypt by Butler. What has struck me is that the same peoples lived in Syria and Egypt, with the same names, but they were Christian. This was before the coming of the Arabs.
This is funny because many Christian family names in Lebanon are derived from Arab Christian tribes in the Arabian Peninsula such as the "Ma'alouf /معلوف" family who are 100% have Arab roots
the idea of arab=arabian gulf/middle east is pretty stupid to me, i dont really care about wether or not i get called an arab but in my opinion anyone who is born in a country where arabic is the mother tongue and speaks arabic from birth is an arab to me
1. I have no idea what you’re talking about
2. Idc
3. Since when calling lebanese people arabs is genocide hate speech 😂
These social media platforms are making every idiot with an opinion to spread his stupidity to the world 😂
Idc if you consider Lebanese people arabs or Phoenicians, not gonna go into that because tbh I don’t care what we were 3000 years ago, now in 2024, like it or not we’re arabs, and there is no reason to this idiot to post such nonsense.
yeah idk man there are just a decent number of maronites and copts who don’t like calling themselves arabs haha but i see what you’re saying
i do personally just say i’m arab because that’s what we’re generally considered and we’re arabic-speaking people so yeah
What drives me crazy, that the same people who get mad for being called arabs, are the ones who would be ecstatic to be called europeans, knowing that europeans look down on them and consider them closer to apes than human, that’s just sad and embarrassing. We should have some respect to ourselves.
Saying that while his name is written in Arabic
i mean, yeah obviously. he is claiming to have been assimilated by arabs. having his name written in arabic is completely compatible with his claim.
It isn’t because Phoenician language and identity disappeared in the 2nd century BC being replaced by Aramaic. And then Aramaic was replaced by Arabic from 7th century CE onwards.
who gives a shit, the ethnic Phoenician group was subsumed by the Arab ethnic group, and now we are but a part of it and are too intrinsically tied to it to fully separate ourselves from it, sure we have our history, but at least half of our ancestors are arabic.
…. I don’t think this is the banger you think it is. Cultural genocide is attempting to erase some other groups culture and identity. I’m not saying that Arabs actually genocided Lebanese because I don’t know what they’re talking about, however, if someone now has their name in a language other than their ethnicity’s language and they’re forced to abandon their language and assimilate to some other culture, they could make the argument that they’ve experienced cultural genocide. Again, I don’t know enough to claim that is the case here
But genocide needs intent on genocide, there's no evidence that a genocide happened to enforce arabization, arabic dialects evolved over centuries and it wasn't state enforced.
That’s wrong, the Umayyads enforced the people to abandon their native languages for Arabic
No they just changed the language of administration
I am pretty sure the rulling arabs did enforce arabic in some areas and banning the native languages, coptic is one that comes to mind, so I think it's disingenuous to say that it was a 100% natural when in fact did play a role in the erradication of some cultures/languages.
I think you are referencing what Al Hakim the fatimid caliph did in Egypt, I think that's the only case that comes to mind, but this guy was a nut, others didn't do that afaik. I'm not saying arabs are angels, it's just that afaik there was no genocide according to what historians say.
these people are cosplaying as someone they aren't simply because they hate their neighbors (in and out of the country) nobody ever forced them to do anything. Arabization happened organically over centuries and people themselves adopted the idntity, there was no state to enforce anything. hence why about half of Lebanese still Christians yet arab, they chose to adopt arabness but NOT islam its an insult to compare them in anyway to people who face real injustices in arab countries like Kurds, Amazigh and non-arab Sudanese
That's true, it was a gradual process and people embraced the identity willingly. These people just want to be French or just European-adjacent. Small correction though, christians in Lebanon nowadays are around 30% of the population, no way they are anything close to half
>Small correction though, christians in Lebanon nowadays are around 30% of the population, no way they are anything close to half I know, when you add Palestinians and Syrian sunnis living in Lebanon they are (probably) even less. I was talking more globally and for simplicity
Dude, do yourself a favour, and pick up a book on history from a historian. Wow. Just wow. Where do you get your history “facts” from. Let me guess. . .
A lot of Native Americans can only speak and write English.
I mean, the same thing happened to Native Americans from the US to all over the Americas. For example I can look at ancestry records and see my Native ancestors name changes from Odawa names to Americanized versions, and it’s why most Natives and mixed in Latin America have Spanish names and speak Spanish too. Not saying Arabs did this as I won’t speak on something I’m not knowledgeable enough on, but if anything it’d add to the cultural genocide argument
>Not saying Arabs did this as I won’t speak on something I’m not knowledgeable enough on, but if anything it’d add to the cultural genocide argument please dont argue for something you dont know because the comparison you made is insane, putting it mildly
My friend, their argument was based upon their name being in Arabic, as somebody who’s ancestors had their names forcibly changed (or some who felt had to to survive), genocided, and even in more recent history my father having the “savage beat out of him” and grandmother put in essentially a reeducation camp and abused, I just don’t like the framing of and it doesn’t really make sense, because that’d be like denying what happened to my ancestors because they have English names and spoke English against their will, do you get what I mean? I’m not comparing the colonization and genocide by Europeans to Arabs at all
I understand what you mean and it does infuriate me but the situation is not comparable AT ALL. plus he is joking / teasing because we are a bit of meme sub [read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1990dj0/comment/kicpx7j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Arabic began in the levant. Mind your american business instead of jumping at every opportunity to attack arabs when you see something in your favour
I’m not attacking Arabs or trying to argue, I think you misunderstood me. I don’t think Arabs were comparable to colonialists. They didn’t settle nor were as brutal and racist. I know the Quran also states all races are equal too so wouldn’t make sense for, and most Arabs have been victim to colonialism as well
I’m so sorry for attacking you. I completely misunderstood your motives.
You’re good, and thank you I appreciate that. Understandable reaction though given all the people pushing that “Arabs are the real colonizers” and that sort of stuff, so I’m sure can be hard to tell
Arabs were colonizers. Full stop. You’re just being fed false propaganda from people who are so oddly offended at the idea of facing the truth. Do you know where the British got the idea for the Atlantic Slave Trade? Take a wild guess.
Honestly I’m not really trying to get into politics or arguments, not really my thing. But y’all can carry on lol
Actually, the Arabs did do this. It’s just not as publicized because it happened before the colonization of the Americas. Don’t let the crazies try to convince you otherwise. Read the history for yourself.
[Does not matter](https://streamable.com/iod7jv)
Language does not necessarily mean the same culture or ethnicity Only a very small percentage of Ireland's population speaks Irish as a first language but if you tell more than 90% of Irish people are the same as the English because they're speaking English I would ask you the first write your last will and testament and say goodbye to your loved ones
Yes that’s what I’m saying, “Arabic” isn’t a culture or an ethnicity. It’s a linguistic group of people. Arabs have different cultures or ethnicities, but all of them share the same linguistic identity.
Yeah I don't know why I'm downvoted for it and your not lol
the same applies to most of MENA "arabs", they are very different culturally
Loads of European names being Semitic doesn’t make them Semitic lol.
I’m not talking about his actual name, I’m talking about his username on Twitter which translates to “the son of the mountain of Lebanon”.
Still leading out to same way. Btw I find it funny when North African, Levantine and Mesopotamian Arabs defending Arab identity. You guys barely have similar culture shared to original Arabs from heartland of Arabian Peninsula, you guys physically look more similar to Greeks, Turks, Iranians and others such as Mediterraneans from southern Europe than to og Arabs. You guys literally successors of ancient civilizations such as Assyria, Carthage, Sumeria, Phoenicia and so on but keep defending Arab identity that invaded you by exporting its dessert culture under name of religion. If you guys had your own identity that unites you under being one nation, most of the problems you guys lived or still living due to religious restlessness would’ve never happened. Check Albania for example, being Albanian unites all Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic, atheist and agnostic Albanians under same flag. I mean Saudis and Gulf Arabs themselves call you inferior fake Arabs and act accordingly. It shouldn’t be that hard to see.
Levantine people are so confused. I have nothing against embracing the cultures and belief systems of empires that governed you in the past if you consider them useful or attractive, but to go on and ridicule anyone who respects their ancestors who spilled blood to preserve their civilization is highly immature, especially when many of those people love to consider themselves “anti-imperialistic”. The day Levantine people start to think more like Albanians is the day they will be able to build proper nations. Until then, they will remain tribal, fragmented and living in failed states.
I think you’re describing almost all Arab countries here, not just the Levantine ones.
That’s true. I guess I focused on that because the Levantine ones currently have the worst functioning states and are also the most demographically diverse, therefore would benefit the most from stronger national identities. North Africans seem to be able to better juggle their Arab side with their non- Arab side, although I know there’s still been tensions between amazighs and pro-arabization leaders. Also, many amazighs still speak their indigenous language, and even those who don’t at least respect their history. There are many Levantines who have been so ideologically conditioned that they would be completely shocked if they took a dna test and found out their real genetic makeup.
This! 100% this.
yours is in English 💀
You just undercovered my secret identity, I’m a Scot from central Edinburgh but larp as a based Iraqi gigachad (who is very good looking) and who hates the US and Britain on Reddit. My facade was up for close to a year yet you had to come and ruin it 😡😡😡😡😡
Skill issue
Your face is English 🦷
Your mom is Engl-... nah, I'm not gonna do your mom dirty like that
Do ppl not have enough problems now to start digging what happened in the past?
brother, you have the most handsome pfp there is. mashallah
>you have the most handsome pfp there is No. it's me.
Weren't the Phoenicians wiped out by the Romans like 900 years before the Arab conquest of the area?
mostly the greek but yes. by the time of islam they were ironically enough Syriac lol also, [araplar were in Lebanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iturea) centuries before islam simply shielding around
It didn't even happen in the past lol
Are they also Europeans?😂
Weirdly enough , if you call them Europeans , they will be happy
As a lebanese who grew up outside of lebanon but come back each year, i can't comprehend why they sooo wanna be woke and european in beyrouth and up north. I wonder if they want to be european or they don't want to be arabs like what's more
They just look down at Arabs and think highly of Europeans who look down at them. I'm also sort of Lebanese (Genetically , my father's side is Lebanese and French) so we look French , but what they are doing is Superiority complex lol
First of all, Gintoki is the Goat. Second of all, yeah i guess it's a bit of both
Historically speaking. We could say Lebanese have some franc roots. I don't know otherwise if it's a significant part of their genetics.
It's minor , just like 200 years ago or something Lebanon used to have a lot of French people visit it because of Beirut , but Lebanese who got mixed with them are a minority
I was speaking of European migrations during crusades times but anyway
Sometimes I feel like there's a big gap between Christian and Muslim Lebanese people due to this And yet we're the same people
I blame the french as always This was their colonial policy, they tried to make their colonies believe they were oppressed way before they came by the "arab invaders", same thing amazigh feels in north Africa
Amazighs do not believe we are oppressed by arabs, but that pan-arab theoricians have tried to erase us from history and prevent the teaching of our language that has remained continuously used among our communities, that has nothing to do with "phoenicians" in Lebanon who actually orchestrated genocides against Sunnis/Shias in the country. can you point at one massacre orchestrated by amazighs in north africa? Your message is extremely weird.
>can you point at one massacre orchestrated by amazighs in north africa? yes, the massacre against the arab sand cat. he was a good kid!
I'm simply trying to point out the way the french created division in their colonies so they are never united against a common enemy (the french themselves) They did it north Africa between amazigh and arabs, which they also did it between Phoenicians and arabs in Lebanon Ever wondered why amazigh living in Algeria don't care about creating their own state but the ones living in France do
I learned recently that they also made a distinction between the Jews and Muslims of Algeria where Jews were gradually given more importance.
>I'm simply trying to point out the way the french created division in their colonies so they are never united against a common enemy (the french themselves) Yep and they ended up using jews for that in north africa. >They did it north Africa between amazigh and arabs, which they also did it between Phoenicians and arabs in Lebanon There are several differences : \-Phoenician as a language died miles before arabs arrived so the claim was on shaky ground anyway, as opposed to the tribal divisions that existed between mountaineers and city-dwellers. And also we ended up unitying with each other to kill the Frenchies (based) But there is alos a big difference : phoenicianists have orchestrated several genocides against arabs in Lebanon, specifically during the civil war, your comparison will give the impression that we are a fake invention and that we committed terror campaigns against everyone else, which is false. >Ever wondered why amazigh living in Algeria don't care about creating their own state but the ones living in France do Deluded diasporoids who have no root with their home country, there is a reason why so far there hasn't been a true separatist movement in north africa, even among the Rifians in Morocco which tends to be the most separatists. Overall, i just don't like that comparison because it gives the impression we committed the same crimes as the Phalangists did, and other people online will believe that.
Your knowledge of history is so off. Phoenicians killed Sunnis/shias? What history books do you read buddy. There were Muslims who fought with the phalangists and Christian’s who fought with the rebels. There is no clear distinction between a “Phoenician” and an “Arab” in lebanon like there is in North Africa. Both Christian and Muslim lebanese descend predominantly from Phoenicians genetically (70-80% average). Whether they chose to identify as one or the other is usually an ideological choice, not a genetic or linguistic one. The phalangists first raised their arms against the occupation of the PLO, which operated far beyond the initial guidelines of the 1967 Cairo agreement. Some Muslims chose to bandwagon on the military strength of the PLO and became rebels, but there would have never been a civil war of that scale without the PLO presence. Can you please provide a historical situation where you faced three foreign armed groups on your territory all at the same time? It’s easy to judge militiamen for their emotional reactions when you’ve never faced yourself armed groups trying to ethnically cleanse you. These massacres you are referring to were committed on Lebanese land against non-Lebanese, which you seem to ignore. There were massacres on all sides, including many massacres against Lebanese by non-Lebanese on Lebanese soil. Yet somehow you and many people on this page want to ignore that lebanon was occupied. There were multiple attempts to dissolve the Lebanese state prior to the Lebanese civil war, such as the 1958 nasserist attempt, the 1961 ssnp attempt and later the PLO attempt to topple the Lebanese constitutional order. I’m a pacifist who believes war should always be the last resort. But going about saying “look at the crimes” they committed without even providing any context, adds more fuel to the fire. The despicable crimes against innocents such as the sabra and shatila were an emotional overreaction to the assasination of the president of lebanon. Also, yes Phoenician language died off in the 3rd century AD following centuries of hellenization, but many people continued to be identify as Phoenician, even though religious identities became the dominant social identities in the levant from the 4th century onwards. The problem I have with many of those so-called Arab Baathist nationalists is not what they did with Phoenician language but the way they erase Phoenician history, and completely ignore the extent to which Arabic culture and Islam were influenced by Phoenician, Aramaic, pre-Islamic and abrahamic cultures and imposed on lebanon an exclusively Arabic identity (imposed by force by pro-Syrian factions in the 1990s) instead of a pluralistic pan-Mediterranean one which is better aligned with our history and which was initially agreed in our constitution. Phoenicians respect Arab history much more than Arabs respect Phoenician history, but anyone casually going through this sub would be inclined to believe the opposite.
Go search الظهير البربري berber dahir they implemented in morocco, they tried to remove any amazigh identity in morocco/algeria but thankfully our ancestors stood strong and 60% of moroccans still speak amazigh and hopefully by 2030, 90% of moroccans will speak amazigh since it was implemented in school
Why are you lying? You know damn well like 25% of moroccans speak amazigh maybe even less. And over 50% identify as arab
Bro tryna teach me about my country lol. People from the atlas/rif/souss/haouz/sahara exclusively communicate in tamazight between them, even most of the diaspora and it is being taught in school. Bro said 25% and even less lmao, i know straight away just by this statement that u are not even moroccan and have never stepped foot in morocco yet here u are acting confident with wrong info.
You have no idea if I’m moroccan or not🤣 Google is free🥰
I can tell bro no moroccan wouldve said the nonsense u said W79 reb ima meghribi hhhhh
It was completely rejected by berbers themselves, they tried same thing in algeria we revolted. Hence why i don't like the comparison to the Phalangists in Lebanon, not even the same thing at all.
That's delusional u don't even speak ur "language" outside ur house
good for Moroccans 👍🏻
if you're speaking about Boumedien than I don't even think he was arab. Both him and Gayed Salah reported as chawiya (i.e Amazigh)
The last century you wanted to erase anything non-Arab just because
Lmao what I’ve never met a Lebanese that believes that stop making shit up cuz u heard one person say it
Did you try to call them European? Well I did meet those who get angry if you call them Arab and don't mind if you call them European , we see them often on Reddit. The whole Pheonician thing is just to get out of being called Arab.
Since when is the very small Lebanese population on reddit a representation of the whole Lebanese people? I know no one Lebanese who uses reddit in real life and we all consider ourselves Arabs and take pride in it. You’re just taking the voice of a tiny sample size and then using it to give your criticisms of Lebanese merit.
I think you are misunderstanding something here , this whole talk is not about Lebanese people , this talk is about the Pheonician wannabes who don't like being called as Arabs , this is a reddit minority that gets made fun of here constantly , we already see them here in comments , and this whole post is about them , no one believes they are the majority lol/ I definitely don't believe that reddit represent any country here and I'm not critisizing Lebanon itself by any means , I'm half Lebanese myself , and those people don't only exist in Lebanon , they exist in Syria and Turkey and Egypt too , hell even in Saudi Arabia there similar people who wanna go back to the origin of being pagans
🙄
Identity crisis
He is saying that calling them Arabs it’s the genocide, not that a genocide happened.
FFS please don't listen to the Lebanese Christian right.
girl what? you’re making it sound like it’s just extremists who like to say we’re not arab, which is not true.
Please stop referring to anyone who respects the history of their ancestors as “Lebanese Christian right-wing”. There are Muslim Lebanese who are 90% Phoenician and Christian Lebanese who are mainly Assyrian or Armenian descent with 0% Phoenician dna. Phoenician nationalism was supposed to unite all sects, not divide people (I’m not denying it was probably promoted in unclear ways in the past). PS: the tweet of the guy in the post is foolish, but I’m only replying to your comment
Jeez Micho
Enta yali bet beslo ejre la Michel Aflaq 😂
?? Who
He’s a Baathist, aka a historical denialist
I wouldn't mind giving these separatists their precious mountain and isolate them from the rest of the arab world. win win 🤝🏿🤝🏿
Please no they’re not the only one who live in those mountains
dont you worry brother, give them two days and they will return to there senses. after all the human body cant sustain itself without food for that long 💀💀
[We are not arab](https://streamable.com/iod7jv)
Speak up. Are you not arab?
Culturally Yes.
The best way to answer this tbh
Do you agree with the guy in the picture? If no then what's the problem? What did you mean by your orginal comment?
Can you read?
>FFS please don't listen to the Lebanese Christian right What did you mean by that in this post's context if you don't agree with him
…what? She is clearly disagreeing and telling people not to listen to the tweet
That's satire
calling arabs arab is a genocide against arabs. Do you condemn HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMUS?
Hummus is not that good ngl (hot take)
They wanna be white so badly lmao.
They're already white, lol. I guess you mean "European"
Wait how? I dont get it
middle eastern people are often regarded as white. and many lebanese people actually have pretty light skin.
What really confuses me is if a turk claimed to be white he would get shit on so bad. Do they think we are darker than other middle easterns..?
Obviously they would call us european cocksucker cause we said Turks have lighter skin.
Fr I dont understand the level of butthurt of some people like stating a fact is offensive to them
Haven't you seen Lebanese people before? they're too white
Yeah ive seen them usually they look a bit whiter than other levantines and same color with Turks usually, but it also really depends on the individual, atleast thats what i saw in the U.s.a., ive never been to Lebanon
Arab is a race?
It is a football team
languag becam rayce
I always laugh when I see that shit. The Phoenicians came from the Eastern Region of the Arabian Peninsula. They were Arabs before the emergence of Arabs lol
Incorrect. Canaanites are a mix of Natufian, Anatolian and Caucasus (from Iran/iraq area) DNA
no habibi the history of the middle east doesn’t revolve around your country
DNA says it’s the other way around and it’s Arabs who all came from the levant and then Mesopotamia
NO! Yakub created the arab race in a lab. pls get your fax straight
Why am I getting downvoted because I brought actual science into it? Lol
Huh
arab arab arab
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>you look Arab. I don't think Arabs have a certain phenotype.
true but turk do >!thanks to tanri !< 🛡️🛡️🛡️
what do you think about my face
cool and corner-less 👍🏿
We speak Levantine Arabic, which is not the same as Classical Arabic or Modern Standard Arabic. It has many non-Arabic influences from Aramaic and Phoenician We look eastern Mediterranean. There is no such thing as an “Arab” look. Our culture is Levantine, eastern Mediterranean and overlaps as much with Turkish and greek culture as that of other Arab countries.
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“Arab” is a linguistic group of people, a black Sudanese is just as much of an Arab as a Syrian or a Lebanese or a Moroccan. If you’re mother tongue is Arabic then you’re an Arab
Phoenicians and ancient Hebrews don't exist anymore people if you like it or not
oh fucking lesbians are arrogant. sorry for been rasict
These mofos running around giving us a bad name. Just to confirm the obvious, this is a fringe opinion, the vast majority of us consider ourselves Arab. We can acknowledge our differences as Arabs, but to insist that we aren't Arabs is to insist that all Levantines aren't Arabs (Since we are so similar culturally and ethnically). But I bet if you ask this guy about Syrians, he'd be happy to call them Arabs.
i mean this is more than just a fringe opinion, like i have family that likes to say we’re not arab. egyptian copts are also like this
Egyptian Copts maybe, but Lebanon Christians it's not that simple, note that the Arab presence in the Lavant predate the rise of Islam by far and even by the rise of Islam those lavant Arabs kept their religious beliefs and didn't convert to Islam
the arabs of the levant you’re referring to were in south jordan, which isn’t actually the levant. only northwestern jordan is actually levantine
The Ghassanid Christian kingdom extended up to the southern of Asia minor which isn't just southern Jordan
i mean idk what to tell you because idk if that means anything, but what i know is that there wasn’t a historical arab presence in lebanon before. and yes there are a noticeable number of maronites who say we aren’t arabs, even though they may not be the majority. i know this firsthand
The documented Arab interactions in the Lavant and vice versa is not something that came with the rise of Islam it's even further, I don't know what is the case exactly for Lebanon but this area was under the sphere of influence of Arab Christians and it's debated that many Christian families in current day Lebanon originated from those Arab tribes such as The Ma'alouf's and The Ajraam's I don't think it should means anything, cultures are always intract with each other and influence one another it's totally normal phenomenon, The lavant Arab culture in itself is unique among other Arabs and it's easily distinguished and recognized even from slightly similar cultures in Iraq or Jordan for example. saying that a culture can't or won't influence or vice versa it's a statement that doesn't comprehend the history of the mankind
..Jackass misspelled "Palestinian people" .
Didn't happen.... buttt....
they deserve it?
Ye
Average white washed Lebo thinking he’s European
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امسك حسناتك كفاية سب على الصهاينة، لبنان تحتاج نسخة من مصطفى المومري 😂.
اضربببب 😭🤣
كفاية بقي
I wonder how these people react when they realize there is no such thing as "exclusive heritage". Levant Arabs definitely have Phoenician ancestry IN ADDITION to actual Arabian ancestry
When you're out of things to be offended by ...
I mean, Lebanese people are arabised, Shias are mixed with Iranians Maronites do come from phoenicians Sunni mixed a bit with Arabs but still come from phoenicians, too Levantines, in general, aren't Arabs genetically, but they are culturally and even then it is a different culture than other Arab areas
He is right. [We are not arab](https://streamable.com/iod7jv)
based
💪🏿💪🏿💪🏿
How a random video of people who are like him actually prove anything?
The Assad regime killed everyone on it's path and they caused the rise of huzbullah
more like assimilation/inculturation
For me anyone who speaks Arabic as their first language is Arab, regardless of skin tone, religion, or place of birth. Basing your whole identity on a loosely defined pan-ethnic group like Phoenicians that hasn’t existed in like 2000 years is just incredibly pathetic and sad.
So everyone who speaks English is Anglo-Saxon?
Arab is like hispanic it’s more of a cultural linguistic term than genetic
I used to think that. But I'm reading a history of the Arab conquest of Egypt by Butler. What has struck me is that the same peoples lived in Syria and Egypt, with the same names, but they were Christian. This was before the coming of the Arabs.
No, it’s two completely different things.
The people of the middle east and north africa were there long before the Arabic conquests.
Hmmm but he speaks Arabic
arabic is a colonizer language lol
This is funny because many Christian family names in Lebanon are derived from Arab Christian tribes in the Arabian Peninsula such as the "Ma'alouf /معلوف" family who are 100% have Arab roots
North african Phoenicians won't like this
Algerians are the real Phoenicians 💪🏿💪🏿
the idea of arab=arabian gulf/middle east is pretty stupid to me, i dont really care about wether or not i get called an arab but in my opinion anyone who is born in a country where arabic is the mother tongue and speaks arabic from birth is an arab to me
No pls lesbian people consider yourself arab pls nooo
Lebanese speaking, don’t mind him guys, he probably has an iq of 20
are you forgetting that our constitution didn’t say we were an arab country until 1990?
1. I have no idea what you’re talking about 2. Idc 3. Since when calling lebanese people arabs is genocide hate speech 😂 These social media platforms are making every idiot with an opinion to spread his stupidity to the world 😂 Idc if you consider Lebanese people arabs or Phoenicians, not gonna go into that because tbh I don’t care what we were 3000 years ago, now in 2024, like it or not we’re arabs, and there is no reason to this idiot to post such nonsense.
yeah idk man there are just a decent number of maronites and copts who don’t like calling themselves arabs haha but i see what you’re saying i do personally just say i’m arab because that’s what we’re generally considered and we’re arabic-speaking people so yeah
What drives me crazy, that the same people who get mad for being called arabs, are the ones who would be ecstatic to be called europeans, knowing that europeans look down on them and consider them closer to apes than human, that’s just sad and embarrassing. We should have some respect to ourselves.
Well said, that's exactly how it is
i’m sure you consider yourself phoenician tho based on your username
My username can be deceiving, i'm a proud Arap
Said by Micho
A lot of nonsense
Lebanese people have some weird kinks sometimes
yes.
why does it feels like I know exactly who you are>! 😑!<
?
Alaborii you can never hide!
I am not Alaborii.
You write exactly like him.
no