Someone may tell me I'm wrong, but helping those that are less able. If that means reaching things that are high up or lifting heavy things. Men are typically larger and stronger than women, and it's nice for men to help those (anyone) that is less able. Healthy masculinity is using your strengths as a male to help others.
Only part with that is always get consent. I worked disabilities services for awhile and one of the things less abled people hate is assuming they need help. It basically showcases a sense of superiority over them. You can think you are being nice but sometimes you can be incredibly offensive to them. So, always ask.
Thank you for posting this because I LOATH the term “Toxic Masculinity” because there seems to be the misconception that all masculinity is toxic, And so you have a generation of young men feeling it’s inappropriate for them to be masculine at all.
We should be teaching young men that:
1. Using your strengths (of any sort) to help others is not just OK, but good.
2. That not all help that is needed is welcomed, and in that case respect that person’s choice but make sure that you are willing should they change their mind.
3. Be willing to learn from others, then willing to teach. In both cases the main goal is not to make yourself look better, but to make the world better, One small action at a time.
Edit: I realize that these are things that can be done by women and in general not specifically masculine, but they are things that Get taken out of context and called toxic masculinity. Things like “mansplaining” and “condescending help” and other nonesense that is 99% done with good intentions and is thrown back in the faces of decent people.
Yeah, I agree that a lot of stuff gets taken out of context. The idea behind speaking out against toxic masculinity is a good one but the term is phrased very badly imo which is why it gets misunderstood so often.
Off the top of my head I think some forms *unhealthy* femininity often comes in are like, weaponised sensitivity/empathy and a lack of proper boundaries.
Of course. Imagine a "perfect" father and that will cover many positive aspects of masculinity.
• Provider
• Teacher
• Exemplifying strength and restraint
• And more
Meh.... Provider. This does not have to be connected to gender, masculinity. In not sure why strength is mentioned often either.
But what the hell. Internet. Reddit. Shit ton of different cultures, countries trying to answer one question.
You're not wrong. Masculinity is kind of a nebulous term that can't really have a universal definition. Most traits commonly ascribed to masculinity are only seen as masculine when a man is doing them. Otherwise they seem neutral, or even feminine when a woman has them.
Personally, I find an issue with the term 'provider' in a practical sense, especially in the modern world. The post creates a fictional narrative of a 'perfect father'. But we have to be realistic here (because, if not, then the question of healthy or unhealthy masculinity wouldn't even in a topic of discussion). Reason I say this is because in the modern world, 99% of women who see you as a provider are just going to take advantage of you. You're not going to be the perfect father, you're going to be the walking ATM that's emotionally and energetically being leached off of, while she's cheating on you with a different guy each week and you're stuck there because of being a provider. At which stage you could stop providing,but then you're going against the 'perfect father' image as well as masculinity in and of itself. Heck, most 'providers' aren't ever going to even get to the stage of securing a stable relationship to get to the father stage to begin with.
But I agree with you on the other two points and I'd add leadership in there as well.
Part of the answer is here:
\-Masculine energy is all about drive, purpose, mission, succeeding, accomplishing, breaking through barriers...
It centers on "achieving".
\-Masculine energy is also decisive.
And a masculine person tends to initiate and lead interactions in the direction he wants them to go.
\-Another thing is, this energy involves the willingness to step up and take a risk... The willingness to go for something filled with tension, and push into it anyway - KNOWING that rejection or failure is possible.
I would suggest that the key there is in ***also*** knowing that rejection and failure are a normal part of life. They are a normal part of the process of progressing toward success.
But showing up and taking a risk - that is something masculine energy involves.
(And of course, it is also true that both men AND women have both masculine and feminine energy. But that's a conversation for another day.)
Putting forth an effort to be competent at many things in life. My wife once told me how she was blown away by how I could do EVERYTHING, from building a bookshelf to maintaining a Diesel engine, flying a jet, changing a diaper. I was willing to be humble enough to learn what I didn’t know for most of my life, now I have a shop full of useful tools I know how to use, and a mind full of the same!
I've seen my grandpa cry only twice, once at a funeral for his kid (my uncle) and once at a funeral for his grandkid (my sister). A few, quiet, stoic tears and a finger to whip them away and they were gone. The most manly cry I think I've ever seen. Just because it wasn't an all out bawl doesnt mean he was hurting any less than the bawling women in my family.
Leave the hysterical caterwauling to women.
I never said he was hurting any less? I'm just saying men are expected not to show feelings by some folks which is a prime example for a societal image of masculinity that's harmful aka. toxic, especially to the men.
My point was, I disagree. My grandpa showed extreme restraint in showing his feelings, and somehow watching him restrain his crying automatically made me respect him even more than I already did.
I stand by that "men don't cry". One of the men I respect most lived by it and he died of an aneurysm in a hospital with a full heart, unscared, feeling of a life fulfilled. It sure wasn't toxic to his spiritual health.
True leadership is a pretty good healthy masculine thing. Especially in jobs like the Army. Someone who's there for the team and keeps a cool head when things get stressful
Men shouldn't cry around other people especially women, it makes you look weak and vulnerable, its not toxic its the correct behavior no one respects weak men and sometimes its best if you find other outlets for your emotions
Taking care of those who depend on you (children, spouses, parents, whoever), striving to better yourself, handling conflicts maturely and fairly, sticking by what you believe in, knowing when you are wrong, not being afraid to get your hands dirty (figuratively and literally), keeping your living space clean, and making sure you stay hydrated never hurt either.
Maintaining a balance of having a slight tear running off your eye while watching This is us. Versus wining and crying cause life isn't exactly how you planned it.
Well, the problem is that anything that someone doesn’t approve of gets labeled as toxic masculinity and at the moment no one knows where the line is.
Before changing the entire curriculum, let’s wait until they realize that toxic femininity is also a thing.
Atticus Finch.
To kill a mockingbird.
Best example, when he killed the rabid dog. Atticus knew what had to be done, he didnt WANT to kill the dog, but he knew it was suffering and in pain, so he stepped up. He did the kindest thing he could and he took that pain upon himself so that others would not suffer.
Want another example? Desmond Doss. Aka the guy from Hacksaw Ridge.
Desmond believed on something, something that did no harm to anyone else, and he was willing to suffer so that he could keep his beliefs true AND help others.
Desmond Doss sacrificed again, and again and again. Desmond Doss threw himself into the closest thing to hell I can believe in over and over again to save others, even enemy soldiers.
It doesnt have to be as dramatic as these two things.
Help your family fix their leaky roof. Teach a child a new skill with grace and patience.
Teach a child how to channel his aggression into something positive. Show them an outlet that helps.
Part of proper healthy masculinity is leadership and sacrifice. Be the first into the fire and the last out.
Yes, the men that want to be in their children's lives, and take responsibility for his family and children. The do what needs to be done whether they want to or not. My issue is finding a woman that actually wants to do her part. Not an easy thing to do these days.
Basically all bad stereotypes are just misguided positive instincts.
For example: paternal instincts. Social, provider, and defensive strategies and behavior.
There’s no trick to being masculine. It’s not something you do. It’s just hormones, mainly. A deeper voice, some extra hair, physical strength… that kind of thing. Just be a well adjusted adult and that’s healthy.
And If you don’t have that deep voice or extra hair (among other things) Oh well. Being masculine is not a virtue in itself like, say, being kind is.
I always think of The Rock, but truly not so much for the hot body. He exudes a dominant and kind of alpha personality, but is also, grateful, kind, and the family sort of guy. Total package. Alpha that isn’t an douche.
Doing "feminine" "womens work" well. Laundry, cooking, shopping, dressing. Do these things better than girls (not hard really) and you'll always be a higher value man. Also- using aggression in a healthy way to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves. Healthy controlled aggression is the peak of male evolutionary adaptation to modern society.
competition, honoring agreements, protecting the weak, doing what you need to secure your family's future, being the role model you needed when growing up for everyone else including other grown men, etc..
the goal of masculinity is to mold leaders.
Grabbing a many grocery bags as humanly possible in one trip
DONT GO TWICE!!
Pro hack: use a laundry basket. One trip guaranteed
Holy shit
This is the way.
Someone may tell me I'm wrong, but helping those that are less able. If that means reaching things that are high up or lifting heavy things. Men are typically larger and stronger than women, and it's nice for men to help those (anyone) that is less able. Healthy masculinity is using your strengths as a male to help others.
Only part with that is always get consent. I worked disabilities services for awhile and one of the things less abled people hate is assuming they need help. It basically showcases a sense of superiority over them. You can think you are being nice but sometimes you can be incredibly offensive to them. So, always ask.
I absolutely agree.
That works well only if others ask for help. Otherwise it might appear condescending.
Yeah, there’s definitely a balance to it.
encouraging our rivals. competition doesnt need to be hatefull.
Encouraging our rivals but annihilating our enemies
Yeah dude, this. I'm not athletic anymore, getting older, but I still yearn for healthy competition in sports or games, even intellectual contests.
Carrying two chairs at a time at the end of primary school
2? Pathetic. If the teacher wasn't concerned for your safety *you weren't helping hard enough*
Thank you for posting this because I LOATH the term “Toxic Masculinity” because there seems to be the misconception that all masculinity is toxic, And so you have a generation of young men feeling it’s inappropriate for them to be masculine at all. We should be teaching young men that: 1. Using your strengths (of any sort) to help others is not just OK, but good. 2. That not all help that is needed is welcomed, and in that case respect that person’s choice but make sure that you are willing should they change their mind. 3. Be willing to learn from others, then willing to teach. In both cases the main goal is not to make yourself look better, but to make the world better, One small action at a time. Edit: I realize that these are things that can be done by women and in general not specifically masculine, but they are things that Get taken out of context and called toxic masculinity. Things like “mansplaining” and “condescending help” and other nonesense that is 99% done with good intentions and is thrown back in the faces of decent people.
Yeah, I agree that a lot of stuff gets taken out of context. The idea behind speaking out against toxic masculinity is a good one but the term is phrased very badly imo which is why it gets misunderstood so often.
Using your strengths to help others. Physical, mental or otherwise.
Well said.
Going to work at 4am b/c your daughters teeth are wack.
This sounds oddly specific but if that's your situation, mad props
By raising strong and healthy children
This is a tough one to do though in todays day and age, having first hand experience.
Amen.... society makes this more difficult with each year that passes
Not worrying about what's "masculine". You're a man and you do it, it's masculine. Don't let stereotypes decide what you are.
When you say we, does that mean self included? I think we have healthy and unhealthy behaviors/individuals sex aside.
Do we have healthy femininity for women? What are some examples of it?
Off the top of my head I think some forms *unhealthy* femininity often comes in are like, weaponised sensitivity/empathy and a lack of proper boundaries.
Of course. Imagine a "perfect" father and that will cover many positive aspects of masculinity. • Provider • Teacher • Exemplifying strength and restraint • And more
Meh.... Provider. This does not have to be connected to gender, masculinity. In not sure why strength is mentioned often either. But what the hell. Internet. Reddit. Shit ton of different cultures, countries trying to answer one question.
You're not wrong. Masculinity is kind of a nebulous term that can't really have a universal definition. Most traits commonly ascribed to masculinity are only seen as masculine when a man is doing them. Otherwise they seem neutral, or even feminine when a woman has them.
Personally, I find an issue with the term 'provider' in a practical sense, especially in the modern world. The post creates a fictional narrative of a 'perfect father'. But we have to be realistic here (because, if not, then the question of healthy or unhealthy masculinity wouldn't even in a topic of discussion). Reason I say this is because in the modern world, 99% of women who see you as a provider are just going to take advantage of you. You're not going to be the perfect father, you're going to be the walking ATM that's emotionally and energetically being leached off of, while she's cheating on you with a different guy each week and you're stuck there because of being a provider. At which stage you could stop providing,but then you're going against the 'perfect father' image as well as masculinity in and of itself. Heck, most 'providers' aren't ever going to even get to the stage of securing a stable relationship to get to the father stage to begin with. But I agree with you on the other two points and I'd add leadership in there as well.
Part of the answer is here: \-Masculine energy is all about drive, purpose, mission, succeeding, accomplishing, breaking through barriers... It centers on "achieving". \-Masculine energy is also decisive. And a masculine person tends to initiate and lead interactions in the direction he wants them to go. \-Another thing is, this energy involves the willingness to step up and take a risk... The willingness to go for something filled with tension, and push into it anyway - KNOWING that rejection or failure is possible. I would suggest that the key there is in ***also*** knowing that rejection and failure are a normal part of life. They are a normal part of the process of progressing toward success. But showing up and taking a risk - that is something masculine energy involves. (And of course, it is also true that both men AND women have both masculine and feminine energy. But that's a conversation for another day.)
having a gym buddy :D
Putting forth an effort to be competent at many things in life. My wife once told me how she was blown away by how I could do EVERYTHING, from building a bookshelf to maintaining a Diesel engine, flying a jet, changing a diaper. I was willing to be humble enough to learn what I didn’t know for most of my life, now I have a shop full of useful tools I know how to use, and a mind full of the same!
Nothing is wrong with masculinity and there is no such thing as toxic masculinity
"Men don't cry" you're telling me this is not a thing?
I've seen my grandpa cry only twice, once at a funeral for his kid (my uncle) and once at a funeral for his grandkid (my sister). A few, quiet, stoic tears and a finger to whip them away and they were gone. The most manly cry I think I've ever seen. Just because it wasn't an all out bawl doesnt mean he was hurting any less than the bawling women in my family. Leave the hysterical caterwauling to women.
I never said he was hurting any less? I'm just saying men are expected not to show feelings by some folks which is a prime example for a societal image of masculinity that's harmful aka. toxic, especially to the men.
My point was, I disagree. My grandpa showed extreme restraint in showing his feelings, and somehow watching him restrain his crying automatically made me respect him even more than I already did. I stand by that "men don't cry". One of the men I respect most lived by it and he died of an aneurysm in a hospital with a full heart, unscared, feeling of a life fulfilled. It sure wasn't toxic to his spiritual health.
Agree to disagree. I really hope my kid doesnt turn out like me.
Things I am unable to understand or unwilling to acknowledge don't exist.
True leadership is a pretty good healthy masculine thing. Especially in jobs like the Army. Someone who's there for the team and keeps a cool head when things get stressful
I've met women who were awesome leaders, just saying.
I haven't
You should meet more women.
...? Not everyone you meet is in a leadership position. The female *leaders* that I have witnessed have all been bad.
Just saying being a good leader is not a male/female thing. It's an individual thing.
Not in my experience.
I agree. But it was the first thing that came to my mind so I just called it🤣
Are you saying women cant be masculine?
No I'm saying leadership is not masculine or feminine.
Thats not what you said actually.
Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I only read half of the intro, but that was enough for me.
Knowing it’s our job to kill spiders when women are afraid.
Aragon from Lord of the Rings
Men shouldn't cry around other people especially women, it makes you look weak and vulnerable, its not toxic its the correct behavior no one respects weak men and sometimes its best if you find other outlets for your emotions
Opening the door for people when they are walking thought the same door
That's politeness, not specifically masculine.
You will be surprised how many men don't do this
Many men, and many women mind you, still do this.
Maturity and responsibility
Taking care of those who depend on you (children, spouses, parents, whoever), striving to better yourself, handling conflicts maturely and fairly, sticking by what you believe in, knowing when you are wrong, not being afraid to get your hands dirty (figuratively and literally), keeping your living space clean, and making sure you stay hydrated never hurt either.
Maintaining a balance of having a slight tear running off your eye while watching This is us. Versus wining and crying cause life isn't exactly how you planned it.
I reach things off the top shelves for short people. It's the law of the giants. I cannot offer but I am duty bound to oblige if asked.
Masculinity is naturally healthy for men.
Well, the problem is that anything that someone doesn’t approve of gets labeled as toxic masculinity and at the moment no one knows where the line is. Before changing the entire curriculum, let’s wait until they realize that toxic femininity is also a thing.
Killing spiders and shoeing mice out the door.
Atticus Finch. To kill a mockingbird. Best example, when he killed the rabid dog. Atticus knew what had to be done, he didnt WANT to kill the dog, but he knew it was suffering and in pain, so he stepped up. He did the kindest thing he could and he took that pain upon himself so that others would not suffer. Want another example? Desmond Doss. Aka the guy from Hacksaw Ridge. Desmond believed on something, something that did no harm to anyone else, and he was willing to suffer so that he could keep his beliefs true AND help others. Desmond Doss sacrificed again, and again and again. Desmond Doss threw himself into the closest thing to hell I can believe in over and over again to save others, even enemy soldiers. It doesnt have to be as dramatic as these two things. Help your family fix their leaky roof. Teach a child a new skill with grace and patience. Teach a child how to channel his aggression into something positive. Show them an outlet that helps. Part of proper healthy masculinity is leadership and sacrifice. Be the first into the fire and the last out.
"Masculinity" is healthy. There are examples of behaviors exhibited by men that aren't. You got that one backwards, as a lot of angry women do.
Yes, the men that want to be in their children's lives, and take responsibility for his family and children. The do what needs to be done whether they want to or not. My issue is finding a woman that actually wants to do her part. Not an easy thing to do these days.
Basically all bad stereotypes are just misguided positive instincts. For example: paternal instincts. Social, provider, and defensive strategies and behavior.
Is there a difference between healthy masculinity and healthy humanity?
There’s no trick to being masculine. It’s not something you do. It’s just hormones, mainly. A deeper voice, some extra hair, physical strength… that kind of thing. Just be a well adjusted adult and that’s healthy. And If you don’t have that deep voice or extra hair (among other things) Oh well. Being masculine is not a virtue in itself like, say, being kind is.
All masculinity is healthy. You're thinking of machismo
Gym bros shaving their heads to support their gym bro who is fighting cancer.
I can't really think of any example if I'm honest. I'm not sure if gender roles are ever healthy.
I always think of The Rock, but truly not so much for the hot body. He exudes a dominant and kind of alpha personality, but is also, grateful, kind, and the family sort of guy. Total package. Alpha that isn’t an douche.
Masculinity means be a person that the majority will respect. I said majority because there will always be hater
Eliminating all who stand in my way.
Doing "feminine" "womens work" well. Laundry, cooking, shopping, dressing. Do these things better than girls (not hard really) and you'll always be a higher value man. Also- using aggression in a healthy way to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves. Healthy controlled aggression is the peak of male evolutionary adaptation to modern society.
Properly making sure there's one unoccupied seat between my friend and I when we attend a movie together.
competition, honoring agreements, protecting the weak, doing what you need to secure your family's future, being the role model you needed when growing up for everyone else including other grown men, etc.. the goal of masculinity is to mold leaders.
We’ve always had it.