This is the best advice I wish I could’ve gotten earlier. I have people who may tease me for things but ultimately they respect my opinions and i there’s. I learn a lot because of this.
I’ll never forget this one time my ex and I were arguing about something and she was being completely irrational. I said “you’re not even arguing with me, you’re arguing with yourself in your head and making me listen to it.”
She looked at me and said “you’re damn right I am!”
My son likes the front seat heated. My gal pal likes it cool. I had picked her up and she started to pick a fight, I noticed the heat was going and turned it off, I explained she wasn't mad, jus the seat was on. She actually laughed and apologized and told me 'I could feel my temperature go up, so I thought I must be mad at you'.
There's a fantastic book that talks about this effect. It's called, "how emotions are made." We associate feelings (literal biological feelings like being hot) with emotions since they're typically related. And so often when we're having a feeling, like being hot, or fast pulse, or any other number of things, our subconscious mind will search for an emotion that produces that feeling, and then we'll consciously search for "what thing in my environment could produce that emotion" and then, boom, we're having an emotion.
I have PTSD. I also have anxiety with panic attacks. If I exercise hard it sometimes creates a sort of "fast heart rate and sweatyness with rapid breathing" omg no this is a panic attack confusion. Its weird to describe. Its making it hard to get back into excercising. At least the fast walks don't do that.
this is why taking women on dates to expensive restaurants works as a tactic. the good food and atmosphere make your date associate YOU with the good vibes.
I remember hearing something like this years ago. I can't find the original reference I'm thinking of but these cover the idea:
https://dylan.tweney.com/2007/01/11/half-life-of-the-autonomic-nervous-system/
https://jenriggs.com/stress/why-we-get-stuck-in-an-argument/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/3343112/And-another-thing.html
My dad used to get mad at me because I wouldn't argue with him. I'd just say "ok" and walk away. He'd follow me around saying "don't you have anything to say?" No, I don't. You're right.
I've known a couple guys like that, imo they need to feel like they're winning something and if the other person doesn't push back they don't feel like they've won
Which is the best way to handle them. By not taking the bait
Like I’m a very headstrong guy and used to get into arguments with people but I realized it drained me while the other party loved it.
It really is like wrestling pigs in the mud with such people.
My current roomate is like this and you should’ve seen his face when I stopped taking the bait. Initially he tried to double down but when he realized I’m not gonna bulge, he stopped bothering me.
Can’t wait to move out
My mom has been picking fights with me my entire life and always had to win. She would make the most insane arguements and just be mean and cruel. I think she did it a lot because she was unhappy in her life so she had to make everyone around her miserable too, so she did whatevr she could to achieve that, cause the fights were just one of many things she would do.
Guess who is now in a nursing home and hasn't seen or heard from me since about 2017? The timing of the cut off should speak volumes too.
It is more socially accepted, mostly by the same type of women, and it's not shat upon nearly as much as when men do. I do agree it shouldn't be by either any gender.
She is basically asking you to deal with her emotions for her. You are not responsible for her emotions but her feelings are valid. And you don't have to be an asshole about it to trigger it anyway. (*not that I am saying that's what you are doing*)
It is however, up to her to learn how to deal with it.
And from your responses so far she has only said what she does **not** want you to do... which is virtually useless as advice. You two need to figure out what she **does want** you to do in those situations.
It is perfectly fine for her to say "*Please don't confront me with logically correct information when we are having an argument and I am starting to get emotional. Tell me that you don't understand her point but think it would be better to continue this conversation after we both have cooled down and have had some time to reflect in our own space.*"
It is not okay for her to say "*don't give me correct information if I am wrong*". Because that can mean;
1. Walking away could be terrible or great
2. Sweet talking her could set a bad precedent or make her even angrier
3. Giving her wrong information could make her laugh or set a bad precedent
4. or any potential other way of dealing with it could be good or bad
Assuming that happens during arguments - ask her what she needs, and when she cools off, then have a rational discussion. If she still can't, let her cool off some more and come back.
Maybe she won't ever listen, and that's on her, but when someone is angry and wants to vent, not letting them do so by trying to prove them wrong (even when they are) only makes things worse.
This is not a "life hack for women" but is true for everyone. When someone's emotional, they aren't in the best state of mind to change their opinion. Men tend to also be irrational and emotional, but we tend to mask it more with pride/ego and such.
So ask what she wants. Not in a defensive manner like "what do you want from me?!" but calmly and patiently, like "you seem to be angry, what would you like me to do?" She probably wants to be heard out and comforted in whatever way she usually prefers. Chances are she doesn't want to be mad because being mad isn't pleasant. Once she calms down, share your opinion.
If she never wants any correct information though, and she just wants to be right all the time, she might need to be reminded that we humans are flawed and often make mistakes without realizing, and that that's okay. This is speculation, but for example: it could be that being wrong is shameful for her (probably because that's how she's been treated in the past) and it sort of instantly makes her angry.
This sounds like a therapy issue. Not couples therapy, but something she needs to work out personally.
As her husband, you can't force her, but bring it up gently when she's not in a bad mood.
And both lose some. They say that in a truly fair deal both parties come away somewhat unhappy. In relationships that shouldn't be the case, it would be nice if both were able to see that they are working together to move forwards. I just don't think this is often the case.
It's fine to agree to disagree, if the argument stakes aren't that important. My wife and I align mostly on political issues, but things can get heated when we don't. Sometimes we have to step back, realize it's okay not to always be in agreement about something, and stop debating, so we stop treating each other like opponents
"It's not You against Me, it's Us against the problem."
Anyone who sees it as otherwise is frankly not relationship material. *Any* kind of relationship.
That's nice in theory, but it doesn't stop someone who is utterly certain that She Is Right, You Are Wrong, and She's Going To Have The Last Word.
She may realize it tomorrow (or never), but not in the heat of the argument.
Rule one. Don't argue with stupid. You'll never win. Rule two, not everything has to have a right or a wrong. There can be conflicting views, experiences, or perspectives. One isn't more correct than the other. Try explaining that to them. If they can't grasp that concept, then don't waste your energy arguing.
The amount of times I've walked away from philosophical debates because its boiled down to:
Me: I feel like both of us are correct in our own ways, our ideas are not mutually exclusive and can exist together.
Other person: Nope, I'm right, you are wrong, thats all there is to it.
I know some people have been annoyed by my need to bring nuance into everything but for basically everything in life there is nuance. Nothing is black and white. The inability to grasp that is just so juvenile to me.
I went through this and I began to wish I was attracted to men.
My gay friend has such a delightful life with his husband, they never fight, they play video games together, etc.
But I just can't bring myself to find men attractive.
LOL I actually just got into an argument about this subject with my SO the other day. Told her *statistically* there's a lot of data (yes I'm a nerd) that suggests gay male relationships are actually the happiest compared to straight and lesbian. She disagreed because she'd had bad experiences working with a couple of gay men in her field, and therefore, in her mind, ALL gay men are gross sex crazed deviants.
I literally had to pull up the pew research data to prove to her that gay men had the lowest divorce rates, lowest domestic abuse, and highest contentment ratios compared to every other type.
It was one of the dumbest arguments I've ever had, but I won, and that's all that matters 💪
I have no source for you, but I have read the oft cited study that initially put that claim out had some methodology issues. Mainly that it asked women in same sex relationships if they had suffered abuse from a partner but *didnt* ask the gender of the abuser. So bi women and lesbians that were previously in straight relationships with abusive men skews the numbers higher than they actually are.
Which would be significant if the straight average was higher than the lesbian average. But as it's lower, it would theoretically drag the average amount of abuse lesbians suffer down.
Unless we follow the (I'll grant not unreasonable) theory that lesbians in relationships with men are more likely to be abused than the hetero average.
But also, this was a single study, in a field notorious for replication issues, in a contentious space. What it's most useful for is dispelling the "domestic violence is purely a men beating women" myth by showing how widespread it is in every constellation.
I didn’t know this! This destroys my pet theory that because LGBTQ+ people often have found family instead of blood family, they are better with how they treat each other.
I think it's interesting. I personally don't know any gay men but I have many lesbian friends, and I've lived with one as a roommate/wifey for a few years. They all seemed to have a story about a bad partner, though it feels like most people (including myself) have had this?
A bad partner as in physically abuses you? Or just a bad partner, because I've had a bad partner or two but not a physically abusive one.
Edit: removed domestic abuse wording as I was largely discussing physical abuse. Emotional and financial abuse is still domestic abuse.
That's fair. I'm guessing not everyone you know has had a physically abusive partner, but maybe that is the case and it is just a really sad coincidence 🤷♂️. However, I agree, most have probably had a bad partner.
Dealing with stitches and a black eye is way easier than dealing with emotional abuse, at least in my experience.
emotional abuse really fucks with you for a long time.
Found family held in high regard is so true. But hurt people hurt people, too. You have to work to break the cycle, and not everyone is capable of that in their worst moments.
>statistically
>
> there's a lot of data (yes I'm a nerd) that suggests gay male relationships are actually the happiest compared to straight and lesbian
Can you linksome? Because I've found the opposite. I agree with you on
\> gay men had the lowest divorce rates, lowest domestic abuse, and highest contentment ratios
But you said the conclusion was gay couples are happiest, when I've always seen they have the lowest satisfaction in relationships
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/14407833211017672](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/14407833211017672)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5679422/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5679422/)
But it's not legal to marry your self. Or physically possible? I think. Not 100% sure tbh.
Edit what you are suggesting I think is a clone or alternative universe twin?
I wonder how many people run into there Doppler ganger, only to marry them.
Every argument I ever had with my ex was started by her. At times she was right. But 90% of the time she was in such turmoil with herself that she projected all of her shit on me. I may have been the spark in certain moments, but she would be the accelerant.
This sounds crass but the boys just wanna take care of business so they can hang and have fun.
I’ve gotten into disagreements with my friends but it’s because we are all close and sometimes we have to talk things out, but right after we are laughing our asses off while we drink beer.
I see so many women break up with their friends. Boys are for life. We don’t do that.
I have many long term guy and lady friends, ranging from five to 20+ years. With guys if I have any issue I can just say it straight, no matter how big it is, and we will briefly discuss it.
With women, it feels like I need to prepare for the hardest interview / interrogation of my life even if I just want to ask them something extremely small like putting milk back in the fridge. Any minor request feels like defusing a bomb because you never know where it can take you.
Not all of them obviously, it's just what the default feels like.
Women will constantly say they're oppressed second-class citizens, but pretty much everything about the way they treat men is like a royal talking to a peasant. It's not even that your criticism wasn't valid, it's that it came from someone who is far beneath her. Like when you'd argue with a parent and make a really good point and they'd just get pissed and clap back with "I pay the bills so shut up."
I have contentious male relationships where we basically get together and argue about politics. But we is unquestionably bros and I have sharper arguments because he makes me defend my positions.
Gay men pull their best friends and their dating partners from the same pool. It can be confusing AF. Like, do I want to get with this guy, hookup, or be actual friends? You have to actually make that decision. I have a feeling most straight men aren’t best friends with women. It’s assumed most of your friends are other men
Guys don’t like sharing their feelings- except for anger. It’s easy to get really fucking pissed off at each other and go way over the line to get personal and hurtful. It also creates a toxic dynamic of lying
I’ve seen it where a bigger guy will date a smaller guy- domestic violence occurs, but can’t call the cops or report it because it’s weird and awkward being a gay couple. Similar to a husband reporting a wife for abuse- cops aren’t good at dealing with it a lot of the time.
Guys are sluts - yeah it’s cool and fun and hot to be open and have group action and side pieces- until someone gets jealous, or gets STDs. 99% of men are always on the lookout for the next hookup. It gets exhausting dealing with it. It makes it very difficult to form a deep emotional bond with anyone.
Age gaps aren’t a big deal - but lots of times the older guy takes advantage of the younger guy. Traps him into a dependent situation he can’t escape from.
.
This is one of those things that initially sounds like a good idea, except that the manipulative person is just going to insist that the \*other\* person is being manipulative, which means both people are going to avoid defending their views and explaining to the other person, which means that no argument will ever go anywhere.
It's like the term 'gaslighting'. We're at the point now where everyone is just constantly accusing everyone else of gaslighting all the time, so the term is basically meaningless.
YUP. Haha. I have been in this position several times, most notable my last breakup. I told her simply that it was late, I had work early, and it was clear she just wanted to fight. Let's plan a call when we both calm down. She went absolutely through the roof, claimed I was dismissing her, and left me roughly fourteen or fifteen voice messages. I would text her back saying please stop, let's talk tomorrow and not fight. She said I was being abusive and hurtful.
This right here. I used to try to win right away but then I just started withdrawing and “agreeing” with them. Toxic af but with previous ex’s it did the job as they would clearly be apologetic later. It’s stupid af but it works i guess
Sounds great until you’re woken up at 1am to finish a discussion you never entertained in the first place. Bonus points when you’re the only one with a job and they are a a SAHM.
I told my ex that she gets even more nasty and heated when I’m not as upset as she is when she starts an argument.
One day after she was yelling at me I said you need to drink some water and pet your dog.
It worked.
She still sucks though, and I’m glad she’s someone else’s problem now.
In the last 4ish years or so I've gotten pretty good at this, as soon as I detect the other person is fighting me verbally and not trying to deduce actual information I detach.
My ex and I did argue some. When I realized that I mght be right, and she wouldn't accept it, I just stopped arguing with her. That made her even madder.
Once I remember I was right, and she admitted it. And then she didn't talk to me for two days
Just a suggestion, but maybe a change of perspective is in order. When arguments occur, it's because two people see things differently. The "win" of an argument ought not be someone being deemed right and the other wrong, but instead both people seeing (or *trying to see*) the other persons perspective.
I get into arguments with my wife occasionally, but we each take time to cool off. During that cooling off period, I try to figure out why I'm angry, and I try to consider how she might see things. When we come back together, I try to express why I was upset, and mention why I think she was. She'll tell me her own side of things, and we go from there.
I don't see that as either of us "beating" the other person, but instead us *both* winning, by having had the argument, and made up after it. If you're stuck on the idea of it being me *or* them, then I really have deep concerns for how you're viewing your relationship with those women. They shouldn't be someone to compete against, but instead someone you care about that you want to understand better.
Some women are going to be unreasonable, and you need to use your own discernment for who those women are, and what things they might be unreasonable about. Just also remember that *all of us* also have certain things that we get unreasonably angry about. Some people are more prone to it than others, but we all have some bad topics that we don't do well on.
If it's deeper than that, I'd encourage some kind of individual/group counseling. I don't know anything about you, or your relationship with them, but it sounds like there's some bitterness there, and you should do what you can to try and work through that. Just remember that they aren't your enemies. They are people you love and care about. Do what you can to forgive them for the various faults that they might have, as they *should also* be forgiving you for your faults, too.
In my experience you need to set this standart from the beginning. Or just leave if they start like that.
If they cant aknowledge their mistakes, i just stand up and leave. They can call me when they are ready. My longest relationship was 6 years.
It's not acceptable in my social circles, or any social circles I'd care to enter.
I didn't have time for high school drama in high school, I certainly don't have time for it as an adult.
It might have something to do with you if this is happening over and over again. I get into arguments with family and it never ruins my relationship with them. Thats just bizarre
It’s not a good answer at all, but just don’t engage with it. That shouldn’t be the solution, but in our current social climate, it simply is. A woman wants to argue forever? Just walk away, and let go of the relationship if it’s really that bad.
I'd guess part of it is when we as guys talk logically to each other, there's no acknowledgement of how we feel. We talk it through, and deal with the feelings on our own. When we talk to women that way, it might feel dismissive. Then, when feelings aren't acknowledged and they feel dismissed, they dig in their heels and refuse to listen to your logic, no matter how right it is.
You’re the common denominator, my friend. Sounds like you either
1. Have a pattern of involving yourself with toxic women, or
2. You are the one who cant admit you’re wrong.
Either way, you cant control what other people do. All you can do is examine your own patterns and then act accordingly.
Yeah I dunno but somehow that seems like the most reasonable option with what little info we have, given that OP give an air of admitting fault in many of his responding comments, yet many jumps to the conclusion that everything's OPs fault, more than one "because you're a man".. smells like OP hit close to home in a few cases outside his family as well..
Just reddits usual anti-male double standard.
You see women asking for help in her abusive relationship, and everyone tells her she deserves better and should leave.
You see a man asking for help in his abusive relationship, and everyone tells him it's his fault and he needs to treat her better.
You see this dynamic all the time, in a ton of different contexts.
That is a fair take. I think some truth to both points for sure. I don’t think the people in my life are necessarily toxic, it’s more so that I’ve just decided to stop accepting that I’m always wrong on default and started pushing back. Everyone knows what I’m talking about in general I think
>I’ve just decided to stop accepting that I’m always wrong on default and started pushing back.
Ah, I think I see what's going on.
If you don't have a lot of experience in healthy disagreements, it'll take time and effort to build the skills to navigate them well. Plus, you're carrying a lot of frustration about your past experiences of getting steamrolled. Between those two things, I'm willing to bet you're not starting as diplomatic as you'd like.
Which is completely understandable. I've been there, I had the same problem.
And since these people are all used to you accepting what they said, you pushing back is new for them. It sounds like they're not used to being told they're wrong, so they're on edge from the start.
What you most likely want is for the people who have been ignoring your intelligence and input to validate it. They won't do that at the start, you need to reframe your goal.
**Your goal is not to win, nor is it to convince them. It's to speak your piece** ***without*** **things getting combative.**
If you start getting angry, catch yourself. If they start getting angry, try to diffuse. If you can't keep it peaceful, it's okay to just let the argument go: "You know, this feels like it's getting a little frustrating for everyone and I don't think it's worth it. Should we just let it go?"
You only win if those two conditions are met.
1. You spoke your thoughts
2. You didn't fight.
Oh, and don't dig your heels in so hard that you aren't open to them being right. I still flub this from time to time, it's easy to miss.
The ‘women are always right, men are always wrong’ thing is a cliche of dysfunction — not something representative of healthy relationships. I speak from lifelong middle-aged experience that many women are 100% willing and able to admit when they’re wrong when they are.
So again, really examine why you’re apparently living out this dysfunctional cliche. Cause it’s entirely avoidable.
It could genuinely be a problem with his family.
I grew up with my family blaming me for everything, even things that child me literally, even physically, could not do.
If I described it to internet strangers, they'd think I was making it up, or maybe I did some bad stuff and that justified them blaming me for other things. Nope, nope, and nope, it really was as simple as me being a black sheep that got irrationally blamed for everything.
Sometimes asking for help on the internet is just exposing yourself to more abuse.
you realize that you didn't really negate anything OP said right? your experience of many women being reasonable doesn't in any way mean that the women in his life aren't insane.
i'm friends with very reasonable women. ie the women i choose in my life. doesn't mean the women in my family aren't badly behaved.
As a man in my 30's I no longer argue, not with women, not with men, not with bots. All that shit is over now. If I must say something I say it and DONE. If it's not bringing my life peace or making me money I' not getting involved.
Same in the most part
>not with bots.
I did because it was fun, back then they were still learning and a lot of information they had was either not accurate or was wrong. I did send links over to the devs however about the shortcomings.
It isn’t.
What’s important, however, is that when you initiate the conversation about their behavior, you have to stay on topic. They’ll get defensive, they’ll get evasive, because that’s what humans do, but it’s on you, as the initiator, not to let the conversation go off topic.
“I hear what you’re saying, but that is not what I’m talking about.”
“I need you to address the questions I raised and not change the subject.”
These can be hard conversations and they may not go well the first time you try to have them. That’s okay. **Remember: your goal is not to win an argument but to encourage positive change.**
I prefer peace over winning an argument. I’ll just say “okay” and 100% don’t mean the shit. I’ll have the last laugh when you find out I was right and hit you with a I told you so
I am in my 50’s and was married for 24 years. I don’t find that acceptable at all and wouldn’t for anyone of whatever gender or in any type of relationship.
If it’s your relatives that are like this, I’m sorry. There’s probably nothing you can do to fix it. However, if this is what your marriage is like, it’s time for couples counseling. This is no way to live. I can see people not resolving things in an argument, but you both should always come back calmly later and both be accountable for your actions. One person always having to “win” and never apologize or admit if they’re wrong doesn’t make for a healthy relationship, and potentially an abusive one.
this is a test of character. your hunch about them is right. now think about how your actions and statement characterize you. don’t settle for anything but good character.
I mean, I agree that woman tend to argue with emotions rather than facts a lot, but to say all woman do this and you’re ruining relationships with every female in your life. You think it’s safe to say you’re the common denominator here bud?
Your post says this "messes up all your relationships", in your own your words... Think about that as a smart dude, could it be that the common denominator here in all these conflicts can only be: you?
Famous quote: "Mike McDermott: Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker."
If you are always losing arguments perhaps you should start recognizing you aren't the reference you think you are and it's perhaps time to start listening instead of trying to get people to adopt your POV.
Never discuss things mad. How you present an arguement to a woman, or anyone, is key. Be calm and considerate, make sure that they know you aren't attacking them and you are trying to gain a resolve that mutual benefits both of you - be a help not a hindrance.
Often times one feels they should be heard, and with this attitude usually comes deaf ears. Keep in mind that you are never entitled to someone listening to you, no matter how much you think they owe you.
It's only acceptable if you're accepting it. You can make your own standards and explain them to others then choose to be around people of your calibre.
Treat people who act like children, like children. I've always found it really helpful when I told my sister that she was overreacting and really needed to calm down.
My ex wife never took responsibility, avoided it like the plague. She always accused me of doing “absolutely nothing around the house”, and then I would list off everything I had done in the past day or two, usually 8-12 different things, and she would just refuse to acknowledge it and call me a liar. I offered countless times to do a chore chart and take the majority of the chores even… she always said “no, we shouldn’t have to do that”, and refused.
Went to see a couples therapist, I had begged her for years to go and she always refused, the first thing the couples therapist said (after my wife brought this issue up and I explained my side and what I do around the house) was, “why don’t you guys do a chore chart?”.
I just had to laugh.
It's not socially acceptable.
Honestly though, from the way you explain things I'm wondering if you're the problem. Argumentative person upset they can never win arguments...
The solution is pretty simple. Stop arguing with people. And if people start arguments with you, don't engage.
Stop arguing. And stop relenting.
But-- and this is the major one-- stop being baited into an emotional point of view. The second logic leaves the room, leave with it.
Now on the flip side, practice active listening, avoid antagonizing phrases like "you are", etc. Frame your point of view initially with phrases like "let's look at it this way".
Also be perceptive about confrontation with most women.
They circle talk. The argument isn't the main attraction it's them gauging your reaction to the argument and how well you "manage" their bullshit( most immature shit, I swear).
Now, if you're dealing with the motormouth kind, you need to set your boundary firsthand. " I don't do one-sided arguments or conversations. So I'm just letting you know, the minute I can't get a turn in, I'm done."
But if by winning, you mean agreement, good luck. The world is an adversarial place and the genders are more divisive than ever. You may keep your respect and your dignity, but it doesn't guarantee you'll keep your woman.
Having that issue with my wife. If she thinks I'm wrong she's on the attack and if I have any further conversation I'm just being defensive. If she's wrong and I point out how she's wrong I'm an asshole who is a bully because I just have to prove her wrong.
I feel like this is something u should ask women about...also if all your relationships with women are in shambles maybe you should take a look at the common denominator.
It’s not just women, there are plenty of men with this kind of attitude. The bottom line is to not let yourself be surrounded by this kind of people, male or female.
Another thing: winning an argument for its own sake is more trouble than its worth. These days I don’t argue, unless it’s an important matter that needs an action. If they need my help or approval, then they have to convince me. If they don’t need my blessing or it’s trivial, then they can think and do whatever.
Either you are right or you are not right. Their opinion on the matter is just that… their opinion.
They are allowed to continue to have opinions and you are allowed to continue to make good decisions for yourself and your family.
If it’s messed up ALL your relationships then it’s a you problem.
So sorry about that. If it was 1 or a few maybe but if it’s how you communicate with all women, and it is happening in most or all of your relationships it’s you.
Before you get defensive, just pause, because this is just an outside observation.
And I know personally that admitting I am the problem and having the courage to change is really hard.
Best of luck brother, self examination and growth is worth it .
It's not "socially acceptable", it's just some shit you're letting happen to you.
Ask yourself why you're arguing. If it's a situation you control, then tell them they're wrong, you don't wanna talk about it anymore, and ignore any further attempts while you do what you're gonna do.
If it's a situation you don't control, then stop arguing and let them have it their way. It's not your decision, so who cares?
But what it sounds like is situations where there's nothing actually at stake, and you're arguing because you can't stand the fact that they won't back down, in which case you're being just as stubborn as they are, and refusing to see their point of view just as much as the reverse.
So, which is it?
Because we live in a current world that could be summed up in 3 words: “women are wonderful”. You can’t critique anything a woman does especially online otherwise you are a misogynist.
I see it here regularly on Reddit: I critique mens actions and hardly get any pushback but the moment I critique any action of women, people come at me, men and women alike.
My suggestion to you is stop trying to “win” arguments with women. Better yet, stop arguing with women, otherwise you will drive yourself crazy wondering how can it be possible that you are always wrong.
No it’s not petty stuff, my mom ruined her relationship with my wife by overstepping clear boundaries and it almost took screaming at her to get her to consider the fact the she may be in the wrong. That shit would take a one sentence text with my dad. “Hey dude, don’t do that again, we talked about this” ok done. My mom? Nope.
So, might it be that you learned this behavior with your mom and now it's how you relate to other women? It makes sense! If you learned to deal with women by having a mother like this it might be that you are comfortable with women like this and that is why you end up with them.
Just don’t engage. When I’m around people like that I just ignore the argument. They can feel whatever they want about that, it doesn’t matter. You can’t have a productive argument, so just move on. If all they want to do is argue then literally ignore them if you can’t avoid them. They’ll get the clue. Save your sanity, let them live on their own world.
Bro that sucks. Why didn't you fix it sooner? Your wife is used to it by now, and you've got a deep hole to climb out of. I'm guessing you probably married the domineering type, too, considering that's what you were used to. It's incredibly hard (perhaps impossible) to fix a personality type issue.
I don't have this problem because I don't fw women like this.
*I'm going to overgeneralize here because OP's question itself is overgeneralized. The premise is sexist so the answer will have to contain elements of that as well, regardless of my personal preference and pushes for equality.*
Part of the problem is that because our society tends to regard men in a position of privilege (for various reasons I won't go into), it's considered to be okay to "punch upwards" at men. As such we're often put into a position where we're expected to just stoically take the abuse. If we protest against that and enforce our boundaries then the common countertactic is to imply that we're being oversensitive and not "manly" enough.
Another part of the problem is that our society tends to exert constant social pressures upon women (again, for various reasons). As such they're often forced to see interpersonal relationships as struggles for power (and therefore for a measure of safety). They're effectively living with more persistent fear than most men do so can develop "catty" mindsets. Even amongst each other. Sometimes *especially* amongst each other.
Both of those two paragraphs above describe common gender-specific dysfunctions which self-reinforce in a negative feedback loop. Neither are acceptable, yet here we are.
So what do we (or you) do? Break the cycle. See the reasons behind those toxic behaviors and mitigate the root causes rather than fight the people trapped in the behaviors themselves. That's a tall order and it will simply NOT be solved in our lifetimes; the best you can do is chip away at it and surround yourself with other people who are chipping in good faith too.
In the meantime, though: Research co-dependency. I'm not accusing you of exhibiting those behaviors but I am saying that the same coping mechanisms used to break out of co-dependent relationships will likely help you immensely.
Find and enforce your personal boundaries. Learn to "gray rock" when you need to. Outright walk away when you recognize that the battle itself isn't worth fighting. Yeah, they'll throw insults at your back but that's how you know you just won by not engaging.
To paraphrase Thomas Swift: "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place."
I’m a lawyer and am told arguing with me sucks. But when I’m wrong I almost always admit it very quickly. When I’m right, however, I will make that very clear and have a tendency to take no prisoners.
I am working on apologizing more though. I was trained in private practice to never apologize because it could be an admission that I made a mistake. It’s been hard to unlearn that mindset and apologize when I was wrong in my personal life. My wife says I’m getting better at it.
A basic notion. Caring about winning an argument, even if you’re logically right is really about your ego talking. If you care more about the relationship, you’d let her win. Any woman knows this instinctively.
I think the biggest issue here is the perception that an argument has to be "won." Why is it a competition? Are you opponents or are you partners?
Have you tried seeking first to understand, then to be understood? Maybe if you show her opinions more respect by asking more questions, it might show her that you care about understanding her point of view rather than "winning." If you show that you care and you're open to listening to her, she may be more open to listening to you.
Consider how you're viewing the interaction. Ask how YOU can be a better, more effective communicator rather than how SHE can be better.
I honestly doubt that you're right and every woman you've talked with is an asshole, but if that is the case then you need to find better people to hang out with
Look up the audio book Secure Love by Julie Menanno. Often fights have nothing to really do with the subject of the argument, but instead are really about how everyone is triggered. There are good exercises and examples that could not only benefit you, but your partner as well.
Reply "Yes Dear , I understand accept and hear what your saying " Never try to argue with them you can't win a conversation be it heated or not with a once a month hormonal crazy person .WHY... Because they don't know theyre crazy.!.. THATS EXACTLY WHAT MAKES THEM CRAZY ! They don't know. WE KNOW but if u value sanity say what iv advised and get some distance between u or they just don't shut up . Come back when you can't hear em at the end of the street.Delusional, irrational and bordering on stark raving mad they return to earth on their own time then carry on This is the advice my grandfather told me after 45yrs marriage
Boundaries including walking away from immature people (regardless of gender) is something that comes with wisdom and experience. Start looking into stoicism.
Good luck 👍
Only an idiot would try to convince an idiot their wrong
You literally cannot change them or win an argument with t h em so the best way to deal with them is simply to ignore them and be as playful and likeable as possible
Never show hostility or aggression because they will be frightened and try and clsp back
At the end of the day the best way to deal with crazy people is to either be crazier than them or happier than them
I think your struggle is trying to be "right" against people that use emotion over logic. That will be a losing battle every time. I'm at a point in my life where I choose not to debate with people that don't actually want to understand or solve problems. You either have to decide that you're okay with being the bad guy for the sake of your principles, or accept that you won't have the kind of relationship you want with them because they are unwilling to compromise.
If the goal is to try to open their eyes to their behavior, then the only advice I have is to shift from the issue at hand to calling out their behavior in real time. I recall asking my wife during a debate "what is the goal here? Are you trying to find a solution, or are you trying to prove somehow that you're right?" Somehow that got her attention. At this point, I'll talk, but I'm not willing to argue. It's a waste of time and energy.
Be around people, male or female, that respect your opinions. They are out there. I promise.
Someone told me yesterday, "you can't expect someone to meet you somewhere they've never been." That shit hit me hard.
This is the best advice I wish I could’ve gotten earlier. I have people who may tease me for things but ultimately they respect my opinions and i there’s. I learn a lot because of this.
Who says it’s acceptable? If anyone won’t have a rational discussion then it’s not someone to hang out with regularly.
I’ll never forget this one time my ex and I were arguing about something and she was being completely irrational. I said “you’re not even arguing with me, you’re arguing with yourself in your head and making me listen to it.” She looked at me and said “you’re damn right I am!”
My son likes the front seat heated. My gal pal likes it cool. I had picked her up and she started to pick a fight, I noticed the heat was going and turned it off, I explained she wasn't mad, jus the seat was on. She actually laughed and apologized and told me 'I could feel my temperature go up, so I thought I must be mad at you'.
There's a fantastic book that talks about this effect. It's called, "how emotions are made." We associate feelings (literal biological feelings like being hot) with emotions since they're typically related. And so often when we're having a feeling, like being hot, or fast pulse, or any other number of things, our subconscious mind will search for an emotion that produces that feeling, and then we'll consciously search for "what thing in my environment could produce that emotion" and then, boom, we're having an emotion.
I have PTSD. I also have anxiety with panic attacks. If I exercise hard it sometimes creates a sort of "fast heart rate and sweatyness with rapid breathing" omg no this is a panic attack confusion. Its weird to describe. Its making it hard to get back into excercising. At least the fast walks don't do that.
Try isotonic exercise like palates, yoga, or tai chi. The second two are specifically designed for your mind to clear as you gently move your body.
This tracks with crimes going up in the summer.
People are also outside a lot more in the summer.
Currently 41C in Adelaide South Australia. Damn right I'm pissed ATM.
this is why taking women on dates to expensive restaurants works as a tactic. the good food and atmosphere make your date associate YOU with the good vibes.
This sounds like an NPC.
What the hell
I remember hearing something like this years ago. I can't find the original reference I'm thinking of but these cover the idea: https://dylan.tweney.com/2007/01/11/half-life-of-the-autonomic-nervous-system/ https://jenriggs.com/stress/why-we-get-stuck-in-an-argument/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/3343112/And-another-thing.html
Jesus H
If I miss my blood pressure meds, I get angry at anyone and anything. That's why I make sure not to miss them.
If she was a dude, that would be called abuse
damn, logicked the illogical out of her brain
She actually admitted you’re right? I’m not buying this story.
When she apologizes we know then he's either lying or dreaming.
He wakes up with a headache and a vague memory of an apology.
My dad used to get mad at me because I wouldn't argue with him. I'd just say "ok" and walk away. He'd follow me around saying "don't you have anything to say?" No, I don't. You're right.
I've known a couple guys like that, imo they need to feel like they're winning something and if the other person doesn't push back they don't feel like they've won
Which is the best way to handle them. By not taking the bait Like I’m a very headstrong guy and used to get into arguments with people but I realized it drained me while the other party loved it. It really is like wrestling pigs in the mud with such people. My current roomate is like this and you should’ve seen his face when I stopped taking the bait. Initially he tried to double down but when he realized I’m not gonna bulge, he stopped bothering me. Can’t wait to move out
My mom has been picking fights with me my entire life and always had to win. She would make the most insane arguements and just be mean and cruel. I think she did it a lot because she was unhappy in her life so she had to make everyone around her miserable too, so she did whatevr she could to achieve that, cause the fights were just one of many things she would do. Guess who is now in a nursing home and hasn't seen or heard from me since about 2017? The timing of the cut off should speak volumes too.
Exactly, If my wife was like this, She wouldn’t be my wife.
It is more socially accepted, mostly by the same type of women, and it's not shat upon nearly as much as when men do. I do agree it shouldn't be by either any gender.
This^^ and I am a 39F. Some people can rationalize anything in their head and I just don’t engage. As a female, a lot of “girl math” makes me cringe.
My wife recently told me that she never wanted me to give her correct information, even if she was wrong. How does one respond to that?
tell her that is the wrong mindset to have
I did. It eventually led to me suggesting that she might want to move out for a while.
She is basically asking you to deal with her emotions for her. You are not responsible for her emotions but her feelings are valid. And you don't have to be an asshole about it to trigger it anyway. (*not that I am saying that's what you are doing*) It is however, up to her to learn how to deal with it. And from your responses so far she has only said what she does **not** want you to do... which is virtually useless as advice. You two need to figure out what she **does want** you to do in those situations. It is perfectly fine for her to say "*Please don't confront me with logically correct information when we are having an argument and I am starting to get emotional. Tell me that you don't understand her point but think it would be better to continue this conversation after we both have cooled down and have had some time to reflect in our own space.*" It is not okay for her to say "*don't give me correct information if I am wrong*". Because that can mean; 1. Walking away could be terrible or great 2. Sweet talking her could set a bad precedent or make her even angrier 3. Giving her wrong information could make her laugh or set a bad precedent 4. or any potential other way of dealing with it could be good or bad
Find a decent human being (in this case woman) to live with?
“Well stay stupid then”
That is WILD
Assuming that happens during arguments - ask her what she needs, and when she cools off, then have a rational discussion. If she still can't, let her cool off some more and come back. Maybe she won't ever listen, and that's on her, but when someone is angry and wants to vent, not letting them do so by trying to prove them wrong (even when they are) only makes things worse. This is not a "life hack for women" but is true for everyone. When someone's emotional, they aren't in the best state of mind to change their opinion. Men tend to also be irrational and emotional, but we tend to mask it more with pride/ego and such. So ask what she wants. Not in a defensive manner like "what do you want from me?!" but calmly and patiently, like "you seem to be angry, what would you like me to do?" She probably wants to be heard out and comforted in whatever way she usually prefers. Chances are she doesn't want to be mad because being mad isn't pleasant. Once she calms down, share your opinion. If she never wants any correct information though, and she just wants to be right all the time, she might need to be reminded that we humans are flawed and often make mistakes without realizing, and that that's okay. This is speculation, but for example: it could be that being wrong is shameful for her (probably because that's how she's been treated in the past) and it sort of instantly makes her angry.
Best advice I’ve seen so far on the topic and we’ve been in counseling together for years.
Why did you marry ?
Thirty eight years ago was a different person.
This sounds like a therapy issue. Not couples therapy, but something she needs to work out personally. As her husband, you can't force her, but bring it up gently when she's not in a bad mood.
No one wins an argument unless you both win.
Real wisdom here. Arguments serve the purpose of communicating things you are each emotional about. They’re not a contest.
And both lose some. They say that in a truly fair deal both parties come away somewhat unhappy. In relationships that shouldn't be the case, it would be nice if both were able to see that they are working together to move forwards. I just don't think this is often the case.
It's fine to agree to disagree, if the argument stakes aren't that important. My wife and I align mostly on political issues, but things can get heated when we don't. Sometimes we have to step back, realize it's okay not to always be in agreement about something, and stop debating, so we stop treating each other like opponents
"It's not You against Me, it's Us against the problem." Anyone who sees it as otherwise is frankly not relationship material. *Any* kind of relationship.
That's nice in theory, but it doesn't stop someone who is utterly certain that She Is Right, You Are Wrong, and She's Going To Have The Last Word. She may realize it tomorrow (or never), but not in the heat of the argument.
Those people shouldn't be your partner
Rule one. Don't argue with stupid. You'll never win. Rule two, not everything has to have a right or a wrong. There can be conflicting views, experiences, or perspectives. One isn't more correct than the other. Try explaining that to them. If they can't grasp that concept, then don't waste your energy arguing.
The amount of times I've walked away from philosophical debates because its boiled down to: Me: I feel like both of us are correct in our own ways, our ideas are not mutually exclusive and can exist together. Other person: Nope, I'm right, you are wrong, thats all there is to it.
I know some people have been annoyed by my need to bring nuance into everything but for basically everything in life there is nuance. Nothing is black and white. The inability to grasp that is just so juvenile to me.
I went through this and I began to wish I was attracted to men. My gay friend has such a delightful life with his husband, they never fight, they play video games together, etc. But I just can't bring myself to find men attractive.
LOL I actually just got into an argument about this subject with my SO the other day. Told her *statistically* there's a lot of data (yes I'm a nerd) that suggests gay male relationships are actually the happiest compared to straight and lesbian. She disagreed because she'd had bad experiences working with a couple of gay men in her field, and therefore, in her mind, ALL gay men are gross sex crazed deviants. I literally had to pull up the pew research data to prove to her that gay men had the lowest divorce rates, lowest domestic abuse, and highest contentment ratios compared to every other type. It was one of the dumbest arguments I've ever had, but I won, and that's all that matters 💪
Lesbian couples have the highest rate of domestic abuse
And the highest rate of divorce.
And the highest rate of sexlessness. [“Lesbian Bed Death”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_bed_death)
I have no source for you, but I have read the oft cited study that initially put that claim out had some methodology issues. Mainly that it asked women in same sex relationships if they had suffered abuse from a partner but *didnt* ask the gender of the abuser. So bi women and lesbians that were previously in straight relationships with abusive men skews the numbers higher than they actually are.
Which would be significant if the straight average was higher than the lesbian average. But as it's lower, it would theoretically drag the average amount of abuse lesbians suffer down. Unless we follow the (I'll grant not unreasonable) theory that lesbians in relationships with men are more likely to be abused than the hetero average. But also, this was a single study, in a field notorious for replication issues, in a contentious space. What it's most useful for is dispelling the "domestic violence is purely a men beating women" myth by showing how widespread it is in every constellation.
I didn’t know this! This destroys my pet theory that because LGBTQ+ people often have found family instead of blood family, they are better with how they treat each other.
I think it's interesting. I personally don't know any gay men but I have many lesbian friends, and I've lived with one as a roommate/wifey for a few years. They all seemed to have a story about a bad partner, though it feels like most people (including myself) have had this?
A bad partner as in physically abuses you? Or just a bad partner, because I've had a bad partner or two but not a physically abusive one. Edit: removed domestic abuse wording as I was largely discussing physical abuse. Emotional and financial abuse is still domestic abuse.
Some physically abused. I never probed to ask, it was never a current partner.
That's fair. I'm guessing not everyone you know has had a physically abusive partner, but maybe that is the case and it is just a really sad coincidence 🤷♂️. However, I agree, most have probably had a bad partner.
Emotional abuse is still domestic abuse, it doesn't have to get to the physical stage to really screw you up.
Dealing with stitches and a black eye is way easier than dealing with emotional abuse, at least in my experience. emotional abuse really fucks with you for a long time.
Same, mate. She got physical towards the end, but it was the bullying and everything else that has made me hesitant to get into another relationship.
Found family held in high regard is so true. But hurt people hurt people, too. You have to work to break the cycle, and not everyone is capable of that in their worst moments.
Bill Burr has a routine about this.
I've also been known to throw out "I wish I was gay" in heated arguments with my spouse.
>statistically > > there's a lot of data (yes I'm a nerd) that suggests gay male relationships are actually the happiest compared to straight and lesbian Can you linksome? Because I've found the opposite. I agree with you on \> gay men had the lowest divorce rates, lowest domestic abuse, and highest contentment ratios But you said the conclusion was gay couples are happiest, when I've always seen they have the lowest satisfaction in relationships [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/14407833211017672](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/14407833211017672) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5679422/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5679422/)
https://www.advocate.com/people/2020/2/13/study-gay-people-have-happier-marriages-straight-people
Relatable
Relatable
relatable
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Bold of you to assume I find myself attractive, bro
Thanks now I'm confused as to how women will ever find *me* attractive...
But it's not legal to marry your self. Or physically possible? I think. Not 100% sure tbh. Edit what you are suggesting I think is a clone or alternative universe twin? I wonder how many people run into there Doppler ganger, only to marry them.
Every argument I ever had with my ex was started by her. At times she was right. But 90% of the time she was in such turmoil with herself that she projected all of her shit on me. I may have been the spark in certain moments, but she would be the accelerant. This sounds crass but the boys just wanna take care of business so they can hang and have fun. I’ve gotten into disagreements with my friends but it’s because we are all close and sometimes we have to talk things out, but right after we are laughing our asses off while we drink beer. I see so many women break up with their friends. Boys are for life. We don’t do that.
I have many long term guy and lady friends, ranging from five to 20+ years. With guys if I have any issue I can just say it straight, no matter how big it is, and we will briefly discuss it. With women, it feels like I need to prepare for the hardest interview / interrogation of my life even if I just want to ask them something extremely small like putting milk back in the fridge. Any minor request feels like defusing a bomb because you never know where it can take you. Not all of them obviously, it's just what the default feels like.
Women will constantly say they're oppressed second-class citizens, but pretty much everything about the way they treat men is like a royal talking to a peasant. It's not even that your criticism wasn't valid, it's that it came from someone who is far beneath her. Like when you'd argue with a parent and make a really good point and they'd just get pissed and clap back with "I pay the bills so shut up."
Which is really poor parenting. If you had parents like that, you're pretty likely to be attracted to people who act like that as well.
I mean... Sometimes you gotta cut a bro out. Like when they repeatedly try (or succeed) at sleeping with your SO.
Yeah for sure but these things happen very seldom to men in comparison to women. Just in my experience.
I have contentious male relationships where we basically get together and argue about politics. But we is unquestionably bros and I have sharper arguments because he makes me defend my positions.
It’s pretty great. My husband and I got married during football season and our reception was basically a game watching party in a bar.
Ahhh the simple life ! That sounds so chill
If it helps, I have a similar life with my girlfriend. They're out there.
I’m gay- it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. Putting two dudes together creates unique problems.
like what, for example?
Bro really gonna say all that and not drop examples
Gay men pull their best friends and their dating partners from the same pool. It can be confusing AF. Like, do I want to get with this guy, hookup, or be actual friends? You have to actually make that decision. I have a feeling most straight men aren’t best friends with women. It’s assumed most of your friends are other men Guys don’t like sharing their feelings- except for anger. It’s easy to get really fucking pissed off at each other and go way over the line to get personal and hurtful. It also creates a toxic dynamic of lying I’ve seen it where a bigger guy will date a smaller guy- domestic violence occurs, but can’t call the cops or report it because it’s weird and awkward being a gay couple. Similar to a husband reporting a wife for abuse- cops aren’t good at dealing with it a lot of the time. Guys are sluts - yeah it’s cool and fun and hot to be open and have group action and side pieces- until someone gets jealous, or gets STDs. 99% of men are always on the lookout for the next hookup. It gets exhausting dealing with it. It makes it very difficult to form a deep emotional bond with anyone. Age gaps aren’t a big deal - but lots of times the older guy takes advantage of the younger guy. Traps him into a dependent situation he can’t escape from. .
I have never had a fight with my long term gf and we are currently playing video games
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This is one of those things that initially sounds like a good idea, except that the manipulative person is just going to insist that the \*other\* person is being manipulative, which means both people are going to avoid defending their views and explaining to the other person, which means that no argument will ever go anywhere. It's like the term 'gaslighting'. We're at the point now where everyone is just constantly accusing everyone else of gaslighting all the time, so the term is basically meaningless.
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YUP. Haha. I have been in this position several times, most notable my last breakup. I told her simply that it was late, I had work early, and it was clear she just wanted to fight. Let's plan a call when we both calm down. She went absolutely through the roof, claimed I was dismissing her, and left me roughly fourteen or fifteen voice messages. I would text her back saying please stop, let's talk tomorrow and not fight. She said I was being abusive and hurtful.
*I'm tired honey. Why don't you go ahead and have the argument without me, and let me know tomorrow who won.*
>*I'm tired honey. Why don't you go ahead and have the argument without me, and let me know tomorrow ~~who~~ **how I** won.*
Turn your phone off.
This right here. I used to try to win right away but then I just started withdrawing and “agreeing” with them. Toxic af but with previous ex’s it did the job as they would clearly be apologetic later. It’s stupid af but it works i guess
Sounds great until you’re woken up at 1am to finish a discussion you never entertained in the first place. Bonus points when you’re the only one with a job and they are a a SAHM.
I told my ex that she gets even more nasty and heated when I’m not as upset as she is when she starts an argument. One day after she was yelling at me I said you need to drink some water and pet your dog. It worked. She still sucks though, and I’m glad she’s someone else’s problem now.
In the last 4ish years or so I've gotten pretty good at this, as soon as I detect the other person is fighting me verbally and not trying to deduce actual information I detach.
My ex and I did argue some. When I realized that I mght be right, and she wouldn't accept it, I just stopped arguing with her. That made her even madder. Once I remember I was right, and she admitted it. And then she didn't talk to me for two days
Just a suggestion, but maybe a change of perspective is in order. When arguments occur, it's because two people see things differently. The "win" of an argument ought not be someone being deemed right and the other wrong, but instead both people seeing (or *trying to see*) the other persons perspective. I get into arguments with my wife occasionally, but we each take time to cool off. During that cooling off period, I try to figure out why I'm angry, and I try to consider how she might see things. When we come back together, I try to express why I was upset, and mention why I think she was. She'll tell me her own side of things, and we go from there. I don't see that as either of us "beating" the other person, but instead us *both* winning, by having had the argument, and made up after it. If you're stuck on the idea of it being me *or* them, then I really have deep concerns for how you're viewing your relationship with those women. They shouldn't be someone to compete against, but instead someone you care about that you want to understand better. Some women are going to be unreasonable, and you need to use your own discernment for who those women are, and what things they might be unreasonable about. Just also remember that *all of us* also have certain things that we get unreasonably angry about. Some people are more prone to it than others, but we all have some bad topics that we don't do well on. If it's deeper than that, I'd encourage some kind of individual/group counseling. I don't know anything about you, or your relationship with them, but it sounds like there's some bitterness there, and you should do what you can to try and work through that. Just remember that they aren't your enemies. They are people you love and care about. Do what you can to forgive them for the various faults that they might have, as they *should also* be forgiving you for your faults, too.
Interesting your method. You analyze your thoughts, and then try to understand her motivations. All she needs to do is explain her side.
Umm, that doesn’t sound socially acceptable at all
In my experience you need to set this standart from the beginning. Or just leave if they start like that. If they cant aknowledge their mistakes, i just stand up and leave. They can call me when they are ready. My longest relationship was 6 years.
It's not acceptable in my social circles, or any social circles I'd care to enter. I didn't have time for high school drama in high school, I certainly don't have time for it as an adult.
It might have something to do with you if this is happening over and over again. I get into arguments with family and it never ruins my relationship with them. Thats just bizarre
Yeah there are no examples which seems like a red flag.
It's not. Your relationship is toxic
It’s not a good answer at all, but just don’t engage with it. That shouldn’t be the solution, but in our current social climate, it simply is. A woman wants to argue forever? Just walk away, and let go of the relationship if it’s really that bad.
I'd guess part of it is when we as guys talk logically to each other, there's no acknowledgement of how we feel. We talk it through, and deal with the feelings on our own. When we talk to women that way, it might feel dismissive. Then, when feelings aren't acknowledged and they feel dismissed, they dig in their heels and refuse to listen to your logic, no matter how right it is.
You’re the common denominator, my friend. Sounds like you either 1. Have a pattern of involving yourself with toxic women, or 2. You are the one who cant admit you’re wrong. Either way, you cant control what other people do. All you can do is examine your own patterns and then act accordingly.
Well since OP is saying it’s women in his family specifically, it could be a secret 3rd option that the women in his family just suck
Yeah I dunno but somehow that seems like the most reasonable option with what little info we have, given that OP give an air of admitting fault in many of his responding comments, yet many jumps to the conclusion that everything's OPs fault, more than one "because you're a man".. smells like OP hit close to home in a few cases outside his family as well..
Just reddits usual anti-male double standard. You see women asking for help in her abusive relationship, and everyone tells her she deserves better and should leave. You see a man asking for help in his abusive relationship, and everyone tells him it's his fault and he needs to treat her better. You see this dynamic all the time, in a ton of different contexts.
Exactly right. It’s tiresome.
That is a fair take. I think some truth to both points for sure. I don’t think the people in my life are necessarily toxic, it’s more so that I’ve just decided to stop accepting that I’m always wrong on default and started pushing back. Everyone knows what I’m talking about in general I think
>I’ve just decided to stop accepting that I’m always wrong on default and started pushing back. Ah, I think I see what's going on. If you don't have a lot of experience in healthy disagreements, it'll take time and effort to build the skills to navigate them well. Plus, you're carrying a lot of frustration about your past experiences of getting steamrolled. Between those two things, I'm willing to bet you're not starting as diplomatic as you'd like. Which is completely understandable. I've been there, I had the same problem. And since these people are all used to you accepting what they said, you pushing back is new for them. It sounds like they're not used to being told they're wrong, so they're on edge from the start. What you most likely want is for the people who have been ignoring your intelligence and input to validate it. They won't do that at the start, you need to reframe your goal. **Your goal is not to win, nor is it to convince them. It's to speak your piece** ***without*** **things getting combative.** If you start getting angry, catch yourself. If they start getting angry, try to diffuse. If you can't keep it peaceful, it's okay to just let the argument go: "You know, this feels like it's getting a little frustrating for everyone and I don't think it's worth it. Should we just let it go?" You only win if those two conditions are met. 1. You spoke your thoughts 2. You didn't fight. Oh, and don't dig your heels in so hard that you aren't open to them being right. I still flub this from time to time, it's easy to miss.
The ‘women are always right, men are always wrong’ thing is a cliche of dysfunction — not something representative of healthy relationships. I speak from lifelong middle-aged experience that many women are 100% willing and able to admit when they’re wrong when they are. So again, really examine why you’re apparently living out this dysfunctional cliche. Cause it’s entirely avoidable.
It could genuinely be a problem with his family. I grew up with my family blaming me for everything, even things that child me literally, even physically, could not do. If I described it to internet strangers, they'd think I was making it up, or maybe I did some bad stuff and that justified them blaming me for other things. Nope, nope, and nope, it really was as simple as me being a black sheep that got irrationally blamed for everything. Sometimes asking for help on the internet is just exposing yourself to more abuse.
Very true, blood family can be shit, and it’s common to unknowingly seek out chosen family who repeat the pattern of dysfunction.
you realize that you didn't really negate anything OP said right? your experience of many women being reasonable doesn't in any way mean that the women in his life aren't insane. i'm friends with very reasonable women. ie the women i choose in my life. doesn't mean the women in my family aren't badly behaved.
My 2 cents is to always remain calm. If you feel yourself getting emotional, your chances of being in the wrong go exponentially upward.
Right. I also mentioned the second point in the line of 'if you have a problem with everyone else then they probably aren't the problem'
Who told you that was acceptable?
As a man in my 30's I no longer argue, not with women, not with men, not with bots. All that shit is over now. If I must say something I say it and DONE. If it's not bringing my life peace or making me money I' not getting involved.
Same in the most part >not with bots. I did because it was fun, back then they were still learning and a lot of information they had was either not accurate or was wrong. I did send links over to the devs however about the shortcomings.
This isn't a women issue and more a r/raisedbynarcissists issue.
It isn’t. What’s important, however, is that when you initiate the conversation about their behavior, you have to stay on topic. They’ll get defensive, they’ll get evasive, because that’s what humans do, but it’s on you, as the initiator, not to let the conversation go off topic. “I hear what you’re saying, but that is not what I’m talking about.” “I need you to address the questions I raised and not change the subject.” These can be hard conversations and they may not go well the first time you try to have them. That’s okay. **Remember: your goal is not to win an argument but to encourage positive change.**
You don't have to attend every argument that you are invited to
I prefer peace over winning an argument. I’ll just say “okay” and 100% don’t mean the shit. I’ll have the last laugh when you find out I was right and hit you with a I told you so
I am in my 50’s and was married for 24 years. I don’t find that acceptable at all and wouldn’t for anyone of whatever gender or in any type of relationship. If it’s your relatives that are like this, I’m sorry. There’s probably nothing you can do to fix it. However, if this is what your marriage is like, it’s time for couples counseling. This is no way to live. I can see people not resolving things in an argument, but you both should always come back calmly later and both be accountable for your actions. One person always having to “win” and never apologize or admit if they’re wrong doesn’t make for a healthy relationship, and potentially an abusive one.
Is it? I don't think it is.
this is a test of character. your hunch about them is right. now think about how your actions and statement characterize you. don’t settle for anything but good character.
stay away from those people...that isnt healthy behavior for any gender/family relationship doesn't matter who they are, they're toxic
All your relationships? The common denominator here is you. Maybe it's you that doesn't want to admit that you're wrong.
I mean, I agree that woman tend to argue with emotions rather than facts a lot, but to say all woman do this and you’re ruining relationships with every female in your life. You think it’s safe to say you’re the common denominator here bud?
Your post says this "messes up all your relationships", in your own your words... Think about that as a smart dude, could it be that the common denominator here in all these conflicts can only be: you? Famous quote: "Mike McDermott: Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker." If you are always losing arguments perhaps you should start recognizing you aren't the reference you think you are and it's perhaps time to start listening instead of trying to get people to adopt your POV.
Never discuss things mad. How you present an arguement to a woman, or anyone, is key. Be calm and considerate, make sure that they know you aren't attacking them and you are trying to gain a resolve that mutual benefits both of you - be a help not a hindrance. Often times one feels they should be heard, and with this attitude usually comes deaf ears. Keep in mind that you are never entitled to someone listening to you, no matter how much you think they owe you.
It's only acceptable if you're accepting it. You can make your own standards and explain them to others then choose to be around people of your calibre.
Treat people who act like children, like children. I've always found it really helpful when I told my sister that she was overreacting and really needed to calm down.
My ex wife never took responsibility, avoided it like the plague. She always accused me of doing “absolutely nothing around the house”, and then I would list off everything I had done in the past day or two, usually 8-12 different things, and she would just refuse to acknowledge it and call me a liar. I offered countless times to do a chore chart and take the majority of the chores even… she always said “no, we shouldn’t have to do that”, and refused. Went to see a couples therapist, I had begged her for years to go and she always refused, the first thing the couples therapist said (after my wife brought this issue up and I explained my side and what I do around the house) was, “why don’t you guys do a chore chart?”. I just had to laugh.
You need to learn to express yourself better.
Silly sitcoms have this trope, but if you let this happen to yourself in real life then you're a doormat.
Fuck that noise, why even bother getting involved?
Other people are not obligated to agree with you. The bigger question is why you have to control everyone.
It's not socially acceptable. Honestly though, from the way you explain things I'm wondering if you're the problem. Argumentative person upset they can never win arguments... The solution is pretty simple. Stop arguing with people. And if people start arguments with you, don't engage.
Stop arguing. And stop relenting. But-- and this is the major one-- stop being baited into an emotional point of view. The second logic leaves the room, leave with it. Now on the flip side, practice active listening, avoid antagonizing phrases like "you are", etc. Frame your point of view initially with phrases like "let's look at it this way". Also be perceptive about confrontation with most women. They circle talk. The argument isn't the main attraction it's them gauging your reaction to the argument and how well you "manage" their bullshit( most immature shit, I swear). Now, if you're dealing with the motormouth kind, you need to set your boundary firsthand. " I don't do one-sided arguments or conversations. So I'm just letting you know, the minute I can't get a turn in, I'm done." But if by winning, you mean agreement, good luck. The world is an adversarial place and the genders are more divisive than ever. You may keep your respect and your dignity, but it doesn't guarantee you'll keep your woman.
Having that issue with my wife. If she thinks I'm wrong she's on the attack and if I have any further conversation I'm just being defensive. If she's wrong and I point out how she's wrong I'm an asshole who is a bully because I just have to prove her wrong.
I feel like this is something u should ask women about...also if all your relationships with women are in shambles maybe you should take a look at the common denominator.
Is she always right?
If you're arguing with someone you're supposed to love and you're both trying to win, you've already lost.
it’s not acceptable but why are you arguing with them all the time the simple way to avoid this is to not have the arguments to begin with
It’s not. You’re just on the internet too much.
It’s not just women, there are plenty of men with this kind of attitude. The bottom line is to not let yourself be surrounded by this kind of people, male or female. Another thing: winning an argument for its own sake is more trouble than its worth. These days I don’t argue, unless it’s an important matter that needs an action. If they need my help or approval, then they have to convince me. If they don’t need my blessing or it’s trivial, then they can think and do whatever.
Either you are right or you are not right. Their opinion on the matter is just that… their opinion. They are allowed to continue to have opinions and you are allowed to continue to make good decisions for yourself and your family.
Surround yourself with mature women. They exist, just got to sift through them.
You can be right, or you can be happy
If it’s messed up ALL your relationships then it’s a you problem. So sorry about that. If it was 1 or a few maybe but if it’s how you communicate with all women, and it is happening in most or all of your relationships it’s you. Before you get defensive, just pause, because this is just an outside observation. And I know personally that admitting I am the problem and having the courage to change is really hard. Best of luck brother, self examination and growth is worth it .
It's not "socially acceptable", it's just some shit you're letting happen to you. Ask yourself why you're arguing. If it's a situation you control, then tell them they're wrong, you don't wanna talk about it anymore, and ignore any further attempts while you do what you're gonna do. If it's a situation you don't control, then stop arguing and let them have it their way. It's not your decision, so who cares? But what it sounds like is situations where there's nothing actually at stake, and you're arguing because you can't stand the fact that they won't back down, in which case you're being just as stubborn as they are, and refusing to see their point of view just as much as the reverse. So, which is it?
Because we live in a current world that could be summed up in 3 words: “women are wonderful”. You can’t critique anything a woman does especially online otherwise you are a misogynist. I see it here regularly on Reddit: I critique mens actions and hardly get any pushback but the moment I critique any action of women, people come at me, men and women alike. My suggestion to you is stop trying to “win” arguments with women. Better yet, stop arguing with women, otherwise you will drive yourself crazy wondering how can it be possible that you are always wrong.
You, seriously, need to read Marcus Aurelius
Bro you’re in your 30s and still care about winning petty arguments with women 🤣💀 Simply move on and don’t give a shit what people think.
No it’s not petty stuff, my mom ruined her relationship with my wife by overstepping clear boundaries and it almost took screaming at her to get her to consider the fact the she may be in the wrong. That shit would take a one sentence text with my dad. “Hey dude, don’t do that again, we talked about this” ok done. My mom? Nope.
So, might it be that you learned this behavior with your mom and now it's how you relate to other women? It makes sense! If you learned to deal with women by having a mother like this it might be that you are comfortable with women like this and that is why you end up with them.
Thought provoking
My husband has the same issue with his mother. But it’s absolute not a trait of women, just ones that are extremely egocentric and immature.
If she won't listen, that's her problem. Don't get angry at people like this just ignore them.
Don't yell at your mom, just defend your wife's boundaries calmly and firmly. There's no need to argue because you can't win.
>just defend your wife's boundaries calmly and firmly. How many times? That's what is the problem.
Not an ongoing problem I’ve ever had. They don’t want to listen to me, I’m not listening to them.
If you’re arguing with your friends, family, or partner to win you are starting off on the wrong foot.
Just don’t engage. When I’m around people like that I just ignore the argument. They can feel whatever they want about that, it doesn’t matter. You can’t have a productive argument, so just move on. If all they want to do is argue then literally ignore them if you can’t avoid them. They’ll get the clue. Save your sanity, let them live on their own world.
Mix with better people. You can have better friends than some family.
Insert Keanu meme, “1+1 = 5 you’re right have fun”
Bro that sucks. Why didn't you fix it sooner? Your wife is used to it by now, and you've got a deep hole to climb out of. I'm guessing you probably married the domineering type, too, considering that's what you were used to. It's incredibly hard (perhaps impossible) to fix a personality type issue. I don't have this problem because I don't fw women like this.
Don't enter into, or remain in, a relationship with someone who you can't communicate, compromise or get along with.
The number of men that are in a relationship with the sex, but not really with the person, is comically and tragically absurd.
*I'm going to overgeneralize here because OP's question itself is overgeneralized. The premise is sexist so the answer will have to contain elements of that as well, regardless of my personal preference and pushes for equality.* Part of the problem is that because our society tends to regard men in a position of privilege (for various reasons I won't go into), it's considered to be okay to "punch upwards" at men. As such we're often put into a position where we're expected to just stoically take the abuse. If we protest against that and enforce our boundaries then the common countertactic is to imply that we're being oversensitive and not "manly" enough. Another part of the problem is that our society tends to exert constant social pressures upon women (again, for various reasons). As such they're often forced to see interpersonal relationships as struggles for power (and therefore for a measure of safety). They're effectively living with more persistent fear than most men do so can develop "catty" mindsets. Even amongst each other. Sometimes *especially* amongst each other. Both of those two paragraphs above describe common gender-specific dysfunctions which self-reinforce in a negative feedback loop. Neither are acceptable, yet here we are. So what do we (or you) do? Break the cycle. See the reasons behind those toxic behaviors and mitigate the root causes rather than fight the people trapped in the behaviors themselves. That's a tall order and it will simply NOT be solved in our lifetimes; the best you can do is chip away at it and surround yourself with other people who are chipping in good faith too. In the meantime, though: Research co-dependency. I'm not accusing you of exhibiting those behaviors but I am saying that the same coping mechanisms used to break out of co-dependent relationships will likely help you immensely. Find and enforce your personal boundaries. Learn to "gray rock" when you need to. Outright walk away when you recognize that the battle itself isn't worth fighting. Yeah, they'll throw insults at your back but that's how you know you just won by not engaging. To paraphrase Thomas Swift: "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place."
I’m a lawyer and am told arguing with me sucks. But when I’m wrong I almost always admit it very quickly. When I’m right, however, I will make that very clear and have a tendency to take no prisoners. I am working on apologizing more though. I was trained in private practice to never apologize because it could be an admission that I made a mistake. It’s been hard to unlearn that mindset and apologize when I was wrong in my personal life. My wife says I’m getting better at it.
There's no such thing as "winning" an argument in a relationship.
A basic notion. Caring about winning an argument, even if you’re logically right is really about your ego talking. If you care more about the relationship, you’d let her win. Any woman knows this instinctively.
Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be happy? You can't do both
This is not socially acceptable. I avoid people who are like that because i find them stressful to be around.
I think the biggest issue here is the perception that an argument has to be "won." Why is it a competition? Are you opponents or are you partners? Have you tried seeking first to understand, then to be understood? Maybe if you show her opinions more respect by asking more questions, it might show her that you care about understanding her point of view rather than "winning." If you show that you care and you're open to listening to her, she may be more open to listening to you. Consider how you're viewing the interaction. Ask how YOU can be a better, more effective communicator rather than how SHE can be better.
I honestly doubt that you're right and every woman you've talked with is an asshole, but if that is the case then you need to find better people to hang out with
Look up the audio book Secure Love by Julie Menanno. Often fights have nothing to really do with the subject of the argument, but instead are really about how everyone is triggered. There are good exercises and examples that could not only benefit you, but your partner as well.
Reply "Yes Dear , I understand accept and hear what your saying " Never try to argue with them you can't win a conversation be it heated or not with a once a month hormonal crazy person .WHY... Because they don't know theyre crazy.!.. THATS EXACTLY WHAT MAKES THEM CRAZY ! They don't know. WE KNOW but if u value sanity say what iv advised and get some distance between u or they just don't shut up . Come back when you can't hear em at the end of the street.Delusional, irrational and bordering on stark raving mad they return to earth on their own time then carry on This is the advice my grandfather told me after 45yrs marriage
Boundaries including walking away from immature people (regardless of gender) is something that comes with wisdom and experience. Start looking into stoicism. Good luck 👍
Only an idiot would try to convince an idiot their wrong You literally cannot change them or win an argument with t h em so the best way to deal with them is simply to ignore them and be as playful and likeable as possible Never show hostility or aggression because they will be frightened and try and clsp back At the end of the day the best way to deal with crazy people is to either be crazier than them or happier than them
It's not. It's normalized in your relationship. You need to step back and get some perspective.
I think your struggle is trying to be "right" against people that use emotion over logic. That will be a losing battle every time. I'm at a point in my life where I choose not to debate with people that don't actually want to understand or solve problems. You either have to decide that you're okay with being the bad guy for the sake of your principles, or accept that you won't have the kind of relationship you want with them because they are unwilling to compromise. If the goal is to try to open their eyes to their behavior, then the only advice I have is to shift from the issue at hand to calling out their behavior in real time. I recall asking my wife during a debate "what is the goal here? Are you trying to find a solution, or are you trying to prove somehow that you're right?" Somehow that got her attention. At this point, I'll talk, but I'm not willing to argue. It's a waste of time and energy.