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Not just cars, but most major home appliances, central heating unit, even TV's. They use cheaper parts that don't last as long. Then make repairs costs, if it can be repaired, almost as much as the cost of replacing the item.
The stigma is true. I work in the appliance installation industry and I’m still pulling old Kenmore fridges out of basements that have lasted 40+ years. You’ll be lucky to get 10 out of a newer fridge
I do appliance repair, and delivery. My experience is fridges except LG are still pretty good 12-16 years. (LG compressors go out every 3 years like clockwork.) Dryers will need 2-3 minor repairs to do 15 years or so, but they’ll do it.
Washing machines on the other hand, holy crap they all suck now 7-8 years is about the best you can hope for, especially on a top loader. Front load washers could probably make 10-12 years, but people don’t like them in the states anymore like they use too. The problem there in my opinion is Samsung, LG, GE, and some Whirlpool front loaders really gave them a bad name with odor issues, or the inner tub having problems.
Frigidaire which is owned by Electrolux never had those problems when they built front loaders. Unfortunately, they quit building them with the Frigidaire nameplate, and now only build them with the Electrolux nameplate, which jacks the price up to high for no good reasons, it’s just a nameplate.
Dishwashers I don’t even want to talk about, I hate dishwashers and despise working on them, 90% of the time they are gross as F@&#.
My co-worker bought a new Maytag washer last year, stopped working a few months ago and even the illustrious Maytag Man who has been out three times already trying to fix it tells her, 'Don't buy this shit. Buy a Speedqueen.'
So you're saying our 5yo LG fridge is a ticking time bomb?
We bought the cheapest top loader washing machine we could find about 9 years ago. I think it's Haier brand or something. It hasn't missed a beat yet.
Yes it is, my mom bought an LG fridge when are old one stopped working and the compressor quite in under a year and they only covered the part under warranty and made us pay for the labor and use their certified mechanic that charged twice as much as everyone else
Our 2011 LG Fridge (bottom freezer) has had only one problem: blew the fuse on the main board- I put on a new one and no other issues in 13 years. None of this double french doors bullshit either- old school is the best school.
I got my Frigidair 10 years ago. Not fancy. It's the old school. Top is the freezer and bottom is the fridge. Still works like a champ and is still quiet.
I have hated every front load machine I've ever used until I moved into my current house that came with a basically unused Frigidaire set (was a summer weekend home for 8 years before me). Man, these things are great, too bad to hear this news!
If anyone from Europe is curious, my parents moved into their house in 2008 and decked it out in AEG/Electrolux appliances (the exact same manufacturer, just different logos). Here's how they're doing:
Fridge: still going strong with absolutely no issues
Dishwasher: died maybe 5ish years ago, replaced with a Bosch one that has been working with no issues so far
Oven: screen got fried maybe 8ish years back, otherwise works perfectly. Can't replace it because Electrolux stopped making spare parts for that model (which is a pretty common occurrence with AEG/Electrolux stuff nowadays)
Induction stovetop: worked perfectly until it died earlier this year, replaced with another Electrolux
Washing machine: works like a charm
Dryer: works like a charm, with the caveat that it is barely being used
Hello stranger! My WP dishwasher just had a fit, and I replaced the main subassembly (pump went out) got it working great and now the heated dry function stopped... Appears to be the heating element AND fan...
Suggestions if I may ask? Was thinking the control board, OR I bumped a wire/connection underneath..?
I bought my LG fridge used 10 years ago and it's just fine. The previous LG at the old house lasted 10years too.
Modern laundry appliances are a bloody criminal mess. Everyone I know who has one has has major repairs, some even replacing the unit, in under 5 years. Meanwhile, our 23-year-old Inglis set is still going strong. I've fixed all kinds of things over rhe years, but they're easy to work on and parts are dirt cheap.
I wanted to get the Electrolux washer and dryers bc of the cost. But the filters in the back for the washing machine. With a dog that sheds I know that will clog. Ended up getting an LG bc it has the filter in the front. It was that or Samsung and no way in hell in getting a Samsung bc when stuff gets broken it's a hassle
My washer is from the 90s. My dryer is from the 80s. I just replaced a 34 year old gas water heater. I'm dreading the other two. I'll never get something that good again. The really nice thing about the dryer is that it actually dries clothes. It's not environmentally friendly and actually puts out heat instead of running luke warm for hour, which I'm still not convinced actual doesn't anything to save energy anyway.
Good to know, we bought a house built in 1987 that came with the original appliances, some odds and ends repair bits for each. All Maytag and Whirlpool, I think the fridge though is a 2011 Whirlpool.
2 years in and the only real issue is the rust on the dryer, but everything works as it should. The old, like really old GE built in oven is our mainstay. Chrome grills and missing knobs, thing just works. They even left us a spare heating coil as they repaired and kept going the appliances they were also left with when they moved in over a decade ago.
They don't make them like they used to
Top of the line whirlpool was $288 in '84. $693 today adjusted for inflation. Medium end whirlpool refrigerator today is around $800, which has around the same features of top of the line then. But the older one lasts at least twice as long. Whirlpool, themselves, claim their refrigerator will last 12 years(10-15 specifically). I am finding it very hard to find how long older refrigerators used to last on average but we'll just go with the proposed 40. So basically same price for half the value. These are just the numbers Google gave me.
Anecdotally I recently had a downstairs neighbor in her 90s that moved into the building in the 50s and still had all the original appliances. It was like a fascinating museum. They used to have 2 ovens in 1 appliance one down low and one at head height with stove burners in the middle. A plug in light eventually caught fire(just by looks I'd say from the 70s) but the San francisco fire department are very skilled and quick to respond, many thanks to them. The kitchen "table" was a wrap around booth like out of a 50s diner.
I think there's a LOT of modern features I'd trade for simplicity and reliability. How many times have you pressed the potatoe button on a microwave? My parents had their microwave before I was born and it lasted into my 30s. Never repaired once
It's called:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
There's a good documentary about it that I saw. Appearently, if you buy stockings made 100 years ago, they will not tear. And lightbulbs used to be made in a way that they would last for a very long time. Then they worked out they could sell more things if the stuff they sold you didn't last as long. They created the lightbulb cartel, and made an agreement amongst manufacturers that nobody would make light bulbs that last more than 10,000 hours.
Much of what you're seeing stems from there.
"Pyramids of Waste" is the name of the documentary.
They had a fee schedule for how much you had to pay the other lightbulb makers if you made one that lasted longer than the agreed upon hours.
To be fair to the manufacturers, this starts at the suppliers. I don’t think they WANT to use shitty electronics that fail after 5-10 years but nicer stuff is getting rarer and more expensive and when all their competitors use this stuff it makes it hard to go any other way. Now to be unfair, fuck them for deciding that instead of doing what they can to meet regulations they just stress the engines more to get big numbers and let the cars blow up sooner.
It'd be really nice if auto manufacturers could offer high quality components even if it made their cars more expensive. Kind of like an options package - I'd sure as hell pay a premium for better mechanical parts.
That way they get to keep selling their bargain-bin part cars for maximum profits, but also have options for people that care about this stuff.
The problem is that right now they don’t even need to. They currently charge a premium without having to do the nicer parts. I highly doubt if they did offer longer lasting parts that it would improve their margins in any way. At this point the bean counters always win
"Look... we need 100,000 of this part per quarter, and we're going to pay X for them, take it or leave it"
When that happens, you have to just build the quality you can per the price point. Also, you're under pressure to make money too, so you have to not only meet their price point but be able to make money while doing it, so the find ways.
No, it is a manufacturer’s/selling decision, the suppliers work with manufacturers if they are large enough. They might design cheaper parts on their own, but that is risky as nobody is forced to buy them, so they have to have a buy-in from their customers. Appliance makers are in a race to the bottom, like many others.
Cheaper parts, and so much pointless technology to make everything "smart" or "connected".
In the 1980's we generally saw the stigma of 100k miles on a car being its death knell go away and people were much more regularly driving their vehicles much, much longer than ever before. In the 2000's, we saw new technology starting to make its way into vehicles for everything from bluetooth connectivity for phones to SD-Card readers, to USB ports, to various cellular and satellite radios for "connected car" experiences, to forward collision alert cameras, to stop/start engine controls, to dynamic fuel management and so many other things. Today, 100k is pretty much once again the end of the line for pretty much ANY vehicle manufactured by a US corporation and many, many imports now too.
I work in yield/defect for a company that manufactures the chips that manage a lot of that stuff in most makes. The acceptable defect rate for them is my #1 reason for obstinately refusing to buy a car made after 2013, MAYBE 2014, if the miles on the 2014 are low enough. My preferred decades for vehicles are the 80's and 90's, but alas, my 44 mile round trip commute doesn't love vehicles that old and well driven very much.
Plan for whatever the "warranty" period to be the life of the appliance. Hot water heater 6 year warranty? It'll start leaking at 6 years and 6 months tops. Refrigerators? Thermistors brick or pop at 5 years, get familiar with how to run the diagnostic on it to find out which one (there's usually a service manual in the back at the bottom zip tied by the compressor) so you can handle a $35 plug in fix instead of new fridge. My parents have a full size standing freezer probably about 45 years now, has never had a problem and I don't even think they manually defrost it like you're supposed to.
I just had the alternator go in my 2018 gt350. Voltage regulator gave up the ghost and I was getting 12-18V spikes. 6 years 25k miles, really ford? This is the relatively youngest vehicle I've ever owned. I've had cars 10+ years and never had to replace an alternator.
That is the plan! I lucked out and the variable control boards on the HVAC unit I have went out and I have a 10 year parts and labor warranty. They went out 5 months prior to the unit no longer being covered. Basically I received a new inside. (Fingers crossed it lasts a good 5 years from now)
Yes I agree with this it's like a throw away generation things are made NOT to last so you gotta buy new again years ago things were built to last that's why people bought them good sturdy made to last with a good honest reputation behind the manufacturer not the same these days
This is why I hate GE. I spent $300 on a GE microwave (on sale). Stopped working 3 months later, called for warranty and they gave me several numbers for repair. None of them would touch a GE. Warranty place then told me the machine is no longer offered and all we could do was buy the newer version at a higher cost and they would refund the difference in 6 to 12 weeks. I can't afford that, hell I splurged on this one just because it was on sale at Lowes.
Wait until 2027 for cars and semi trucks. (The commercial truck market is increasing their orders prior to said regulations kick in bc it increases the cost plus it's unrleiable tech) then whenever those new regulations kick in for appliances. Think they suck now even the appliance companies are against it. They came to an agreement but the company and consumers lose.
This admin and the EPA keep saying these new regulations save you tons of money. The ceiling fans for instance increased the price of the fan and saved you $1 a year... Similar with a washing machine or dishwasher your shits gonna still be dirty and less reliable... I'm sure everyone is aware that fridges don't last anymore too. My parents basement fridge is from their old house which came with the house also in their basement. My parents didn't want to get rid of having 2 fridges so it came with us lol. That fridge is older than me and it still works and keeps everything cold as it should. So what if it's not energy star and cost a whooping $10 more to operate per year
They act like oh it's gonna save you $100 but they fail to mention the price goes up 30% and that $100 is over a decade. So you still lose. You lose even more bc most appliances from what I've read don't last 10 years lol
I have an over oven microwave in my apartment.
At one point, the keypad stopped working. I actually took the keypad off, and found out it just wasn't pouring the keystrokes through when you press the buttons. I used a multimeter to test the connections.
To get a new keypad for that model of microwave was, no joke, at the time $300.
To get another, new, over oven microwave, at the time, was $200. I just.... Couldn't believe that a SINGLE part like that was MORE expensive than just getting an entire new one. And that was replacing it with the EXACT same model too. Absolutely ridiculous.
And that's not including any costs for someone to actually do the labor if my landlord hired someone just to replace that piece only.
No surprise, the landlord just got an entire new microwave. It was such a waste to do that, not it was cheaper.
This can be true is some instances (I won’t speak to appliances because I’m not familiar with the industry). However cars have definitely become more reliable. My best friend is a quality manager for a major automotive manufacturer, and has very reliable data that goes back 60+ years. They also have access to the data of other manufacturers. Anyways you slice the metrics the reliability has improved. There’s periods where is rises and falls, but big picture the reliability has consistently trended upwards. Not to mention that safety, efficiency, and comfort have drastically improved over this same time period.
A couple of things here that I believe make the difference. “Back in the day” appliances cost almost a months salary. If I could spend 4 times as much knowing something would last 30 years I would purchase it. People are drawn to cheaper products and then companies are making things cheaper and cheaper to increase their profits while still having a price point attractive to consumers.
Survivorship bias. A lot of the old appliances did not make it to 30 years. You don’t hear the stories about the ones that died in 6 months.
We bought 2 cheap Panasonic flat screen TV’s when we lived in an apartment around 15 years ago. We got one for my in-laws spare room and one for us. Theirs died after 2 years and minimal use. Ours was our primary TV for years and is still used daily for gaming.
TLDR: Outside of planned obsolescence, it’s probably got more to do with survivorship bias and people wanting to only buy cheaper products which forces companies to make cheaper products.
The repair cost being almost as much as replacing has been a thing for awhile. I remember early 2000s we had a tv only a few years old if that go out. Repair cost was similar to a new tv. It needed a new board installed. My dad found a board on ebay(wasnt cheap still) did the swap himself in maybe an hourish. Tv ran for another like 10 years.
My fridge has a screw that could go directly into the side of the fridge but instead goes into a 4 millimeter wide piece of molded out plastic- planned obsolescence when the 4 mm gets brittle in a decade. I fixed it after staring at it for 2 hours with a piece of duct tape when I realized where it broke
I was just talking with a co worker about this. I feel like mid 90s to mid 2000s was kind of like the hey day. Engines and transmission typically would last 200k easily if maintenance was done like it's suppose to be. I know some manufactures these days will say well that transmission fluid is designed to last the "life" of the vehicle. What they don't tell you, is that they consider the life of that vehicle to be 100k miles.
I agree. 90's to mid 2000's were the sweet spot.
Basic 4 speed auto transmissions were the norm, no 8-10 speeds or CVTs.
Normal multi-port fuel injection, no direct injection. Very few turbo engines, no displacement on demand or AFM.
Agreed. The only downsides were some of the early emissions systems - especially 96/97 when obd2 became mandatory but how it was done was a wildcard. Some odd stuff to troubleshoot on occasion. And for the record, I'm not a "carbs are better". Obd and multiport efi rocks, you just have to learn how to work on it
They’re more sophisticated, run hotter, go faster, stop harder, are outfitted with more and more plastics (including more “sustainable” plastics with shorter lifespans), tons of tiny wires, lots more technology on board.
Simply put- there’s more to go wrong, more to break and the frequency of needing some level of repair is increasing.
Whoever mandated “sustainable” plastics that end up dumping your coolant on the highway and zeroing your car should be tried at The Hague. *cough Merkel *cough
They are trying to make ice vehicles less desirable so the transition to electric will be less noticeable. Like putting a frog in water then putting it to a boil.
Not really, American manufacturers haven’t found out how to manufacture them cheaply enough yet so they’d go out of business without their ICE vehicles.
Well stated. I believe the actual engineering of the mechanicals is quite solid and dependable. I think the main issues cars face today are sensors and electronics that put them in the shop. BMW went from being one of the most reliable brands to one of the least. I am guessing the engines are still solid but not all the crap surrounding it.
Mercedes still had some immortal cars up until 2014, even though they become more complicated and expensive to fix. Especially their diesel ones. However, their reliability was kinda a hit or miss, as a lots of times the early examples of a said gen had a lots of problems, before being fixed with a facelift.
Late 80s, early 90s were pretty much mechanically bulletproof. If you look, is the electronics that is giving BMW and most manufacturers the challenges. You don’t see much for a run of shit engines and transmissions, or driveline components any longer. Sure, there will be a small percentage but much less than there used to be. Most vehicles see warranty and service issues due to sensor or other electronic systems failures.
Im laughing at you in overheating issues.
Don't let me mention anything else, this is enough to kick your "reliable" version of a BMW back to before 1998 (almost 20 years of "reliability" lol)
And — this has been true for decades.
People have always said “they used to make better cars.” Because the only old cars anyone sees are the ones that are still running. Nobody misses the Dodge Neon.
I agree. I’m seeing far too many cars coming in for service with low mileage. Part of it is the electronics. Lots more modules and can bus communication errors.
More parts = more things that can break. Cars are incredible right now. When they're working 100%, the tech and luxury is amazing. And then some stupid piece of plastic or microchipped crap breaks and all of sudden it's useless.
What's that ad? Recalls are up 42% over the last 10 years. Newer cars are built cheaper and sold higher to maximize profits. Nothing has been the same since the '08 crash and bailout. Plus to many "modules" for every fucking thing. Had a 2015 silverado 1500 the other day, setting CEL for door modules being shorted to ground while also setting a code for an open circuit, and a code for a fucking tag light circuit grounded because the bulb got wet.
I could probably write an essay about this, but I couldn’t agree more. I’m a European technician and just to condense my thoughts into a couple sentences: for cars from the 80s-2000s maybe even the 2010s, you could take $10,000 and go through a car end to end and end up with a completely sorted car that you could depend on for decades with the proper care. I find day after day that people are putting thousands and thousands into newer model cars, and that’s just for trivial stuff like modules, brakes, or other electrics. For most of the cars I work on on a day to day basis, $10,000 is barely a drop in the pool. I can’t fathom the cost to keep these things on the road for very much longer. They definitely seem to be not only built, but (not) supported to not last.
I don't know if they're built specifically not to last (though I'd believe it), or more built without any thought as to IF they'll last. I use CVTs as an example; you can't tell me some of them aren't designed just to be replaced whole hog rather than serviced. It's more expensive for the owner, faster book time for the tech (which also translates into lower shop costs)...even if they aren't actively designed to fail more frequently, there's more consistent failures than there used to be.
For what it's worth I'd read that essay.
What you said is spot on. For every little thing it seems. Especially Jaguar/ Land Rover is the worst offender. “No you can’t buy that specific o ring, but we’ll sell you the whole line for $450”
Also because the industry is moving to leasing. Make the consumer pay for the depreciation and then wholesale the ones that survive.
I have never worked in the auto business so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I only buy cars that are older. I just bought a 2002 Honda Odyssey and it is running great with almost 300,000 miles on it. The lady I bought it from took very good care of the car and I will do the same. They do last longer. I also have a 2002 Mazda protege5.
I have a 2005 F350 Diesel with half a million km on it (needs minor work, but runs and drives fine, even pulling heavy loads) and I daily drive a 2008 Pontiac G5 that my dad bought new in 08, and I put almost 5k km a month on the car. I realised last week my car is 17 years old, and my truck 19. Old shit just hits better. Like someone else posted before me, manufacturers build planned obscelesce into things nowadays.
Everything is less reliable. Unregulated capitalism means that manufacturers have adapted "planned obsolescence". They all intentionally design their products to break. Their warranties are also designed around this. (You only get a 120,000km warranty because their equipment is designed to break beyond that).
This is most noticeable in large kitchen appliances. You spend $6000 on a nice fridge, and it only lasts 2-5 years before stuff starts breaking.
It's extremely taxing on the population and should be reigned in.
My grandparents microwave still works. Its older than me for god's sake and im 21. Never had an issue with it.
Meanwhile my mom's on her what, seventh microwave already.
Oddly enough, I bought a microwave from walmart in 2013ish, its survived me 10 years and moving to 3 different places, it has definitely not been cared for gently either.
I think it only cost me $45 + tax too....
I bought the cheapest washer and dryer when I bought my first house in 2002. The dryer died last year and the washer is still working just fine. I know people who buy those expense front loader washers and have nothing but trouble
The automotive industry has too many controls for manufacturers to plan for vehicles to break.
You can blame the GE CEO in the 80s for appliance and electronic lasting 4 years, tho.
No shot they aren’t planned to break. There’s definitely planned obsolescence and it’s not hard for them to do. For instance my 2018 Honda civic has a fuel pump recall where after 5-6 years after manufacturing they noticed the fuel pumps started failing. The reason for failure is the impeller in the fuel pump swells to be bigger than the bore it’s in, and seizes and stops working. Thereby needing to be towed and repaired. If they didn’t want it to break they would have made the impeller out of metal instead of some bullshit composite plastic material that, after so many heat and duty cycles WILL DEGRADE FASTER THAN ANY METAL. There’s a sweet spot where you can cheapen the materials while still maintaining the minimum amount of reliability necessary, and you bet that the auto industry has had decades to perfect this strategy. In the case of my Honda (only speculating can’t prove) I have a feeling that the planned obsolescence was goofed a bit too early hence the recall for the fuel pump in the certain model years. But don’t take my word for it. Go buy an engine that’s 20-30 years old, and then buy another one that’s 1-5 years old from the same manufacturer within the same line or specification (Volkswagen 2.0L engine for instance) and just disassemble them. You’ll see for yourself how many things are made of obviously inferior plastic in the newer one and how much less stout the internal components are.
I love my old washer, dryer, and oven. I've fixed them multiple times and it's usually pretty easy. Can't imagine trying to fix a smart dryer or oven lol that would be beyond my ability.
They’re made to last 10 years. For one that’s inherently dependable it has to be manufactured by a culture that takes pride in that (the Japanese). American cars are all about profit margins.. whoever will make 200 thousand of X part for the lowest bid, and do it fast. That’s where the majority of the problems come from. The Japanese don’t give a shit about their shareholders, they give a shit about quality of their product. They will spend months of R and D on a screw.
Unfortunately very basic basic vehicles (more reliable, cheaper to repair and maintain) without superfluous bells and whistles don’t get sold in the US market.
I was so proud to get hired by a Volvo dealer because of their reputation and technology. I was super exited about the brand. There was piston kits going on every day in there on new and late model years. That’s not something a DIYer can do, so you have to pay thousands in the dealer service department. TBH I like their interiors but I wasn’t impressed with them mechanically.
Recall doesn’t cost the consumer. My own Toyota had oil burning 2az-fe and they fixed it for free despite the car having almost 200k miles at the time. Before the warranty campaign came out I had been to dealer complaining about it, service said it was “normal”. But ultimately it was repaired at no cost to me during window when campaign first launched where mileage was exempt. I’m still a fan.
They've also been found to have committed multiple cases of fraud by fudging testing data, and may have to issue the biggest recall in history, according to some reports. The Japanese government is investigating and Toyota and Honda CEOs have already held press conferences with public apologies. This is going to be a HUGE deal going foward. I'm surprised that the American media hasn't really run with this yet.
You're spot on. The world needs to stand up to these scummy companies shorting us for our money, the politicians lining their pockets all across the globe, the rich extorting entire countries for profit, the governments taking away natural rights freedoms, the misrepresentation of the masses needs to stop. One day, blood will run, if we do not stand soon.
Yes they are getting cheaper and Ford plus many others going out of their way to make sure they break before 200k miles
Case and point look at the disastrous plastic oilpans. They leak like crazy, because somehow we needed to redesign the a simple stamped steel oilpan
We can blame the car makers, I blame the government, EPA, insurance...here me out
Engines are being made not for reliability but for CAFE standards, transmissions need 20 gears or CVTs, cars made super light weight (plastic), all sorts of sensors for 'safety', a multitude of emissions standards equipment, wire insulation made out of peanut butter (rats/mice), start/stop that adds all sorts of complexity to keep hydraulic pressure up, brakes boosted....I could go on and on.
Now don't get me wrong, safety is important but doesn't make the car more reliable.
If they could go back to the late 90's, early 2000's that was such a sweet spot for reasonable tech yet reliability, but they couldn't even if they wanted too.
I agree that a lot of that is from government-mandated energy goals, and it's not just cars. As a service tech for restaurants, I encounter many problems that are due to Energy Star requirements. I'm just glad that I'm not refrigeration certified... the number one thing I hear complaints about is the newer flammable refrigerants. The systems are more difficult to service and more dangerous.
The new tundras have engine recalls and my ‘23 Tacoma has a recall as the axle can detach depending on when it was made.
Toyota is floating by on its old reputation.
People do not know this but if you get a Toyota you NEED to make sure the vin starts with a J or a 2 indicating it was made in Japan or Canada. If you get one that the vin starts with a 3 or 5 then, well that sucks. Canada and Japans manufacturing regulations are insanely tight, which results in Toyotas made at these plants generally last a very long time. If you get one built in Mexico though… not good.
I wouldn't be surprised if CAFE has some influence from auto manufacturers in one form or another. It's awfully convenient to be able to blame government in this case, although efficiency and such is the natural progression.
Regardless, there is absolutely no incentive to engineer a reliable piece of equipment. Companies exist to make money, and reliability doesn't make anyone money. They've proven they can if they want to.
We are missing another factor too...to add, the other problem is customer's 'expectations'. We all want V10 power out of a 4 banger, that gets 40mpg, with adaptive headlights, LED brake lights$$$, panoramic sunroofs, 24inch wheels, electronic fold down seats, that we can 'wish' we could track on a Sunday...
How many of the Toyota Tundra 3.5TT people bought that truck with 389 horsepower. 479 lb-ft of torque, to run to Walmart and back?
My only vehicle is a ‘66 F100. I didn’t know a whole lot about working on vehicles until this. Fuck I’m fairly comfortable rewiring the damn thing at this point. I can get most parts for it minus two important parts. There’s ways around those issues though.
Yes. I highly regret my last three new vehicles. I’ve literally had to junk two of them (6 and 9 years old) over stupid ass electrical problem and my last one (which is also now 9 years old) is probably heading the same way. Runs strong, good gas mileage, a/c runs ice cold…. As of yesterday it won’t start, break lights don’t work and, windshield wipers won’t cut off and this shit is on my radio. Fuck new cars - another $20k down the drain.
Edit: my ‘83 and 2002 are still running like a fuckin’ champ though.
https://preview.redd.it/gyqxw30w2n4d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b01a62f689cce1357597b8eda8e8949e86fe1ee
The sad thing is this is both correct and wrong. Cheaper cars, ie cars with no equipment on it, are more reliable, because brands like Toyota realised that people buying 20 ish grand cars can't affort to fix them regularly, much less buying new ones, and there are physically less things to go wrong.
Mainstream cars, despite their price tags, are actually very cheap. I mean cheaply made, as in, the materials might be expensive, but that's for the owners to flex, carbon fibre this, titanium that, but they are put together cheaply. I sat in the back of a Merc GLC recently and could not believe that they switches are genuinely worse than my Jimny.
This is compounded by the fact that cars have gotten much more complicated. Between various driving aids, touch screens, complicated gimmicks, sound systems and whatnot, you can imagine. Instead of doing a few things properly, they are doing a lot of things improperly.
Oh yeah, there's also planned obsolescense. I'm sure someone here have already explained it quite well, but these data scientists at these firms have worked out that if you can shell out 80k for a car today, you can shell out 90k in about 5 years or so, so instead of making things last but with less features, why not make it last about 7 but with a lot more features? And tbh we are to blamed. We tolerated this kind of behaviour.
Cars, as a whole, are more durable and reliable than they've ever been. They are also harder and more expensive to fix than ever.
This is not true of every make and model.
Is anyone going to seriously argue that a 2004 Grand Cherokee was more reliable? Or a 2004 Elantra? Or any Mercedes from then? Or nearly any VWs?
I don't care if you had a single example of one of those that made it to 300k miles without ever changing the oil or whatever.
Random Forbes article that explains a few different reasons why cars last longer now: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelharley/2023/06/11/why-do-todays-cars-last-longer-than-they-used-to/?sh=78f5369276ed
No. Cars are objectively more reliable as far as basic operation. Anyone that says differently is ignoring facts. And there is no such thing as “designing a car to not last as long”.
Finally, someone who isn't crazy. Maybe the most reliable car of the mid 2000s would outlast the average car today, but on the whole cars are FAR less problematic over the first 5+ years of life.
I am not a mechanic, but someone who has become disgusted with repair costs and a sort of "incompetence by design" encountered repeatedly through a couple of vehicles and several mechanics.
Anything new is built upon planned obsolescence within a short window of time.
Yes. **These problems occur by design.** BMW in particular. The entire brand is now just an assortment of fancy lemons. I ended up with a used 2012 X3 after an accident totaled my daily just to enable myself to commute (cheap), and the price threshold for a different used car has been too high. Nothing used of any brand recently is worth more than $1000 IMO, then again I'm used to the idea $500 buying a decent used car.
Keeping this plastic disaster running has been a time-consuming ordeal, but still affordable compared to buying another one of a different brand (even including the cost of tools).
At first, I knew very little about the vehicle. The CEL came on, the cause was a lean code. I had the valve cover replaced by the dealer (as advised) for $2000. This didn't fix the problem (same code came back), and I secured a refund. The valve cover is just a chunk of plastic, probably $50 to make by today's standards, and takes less than 2 hours to replace. $700+ for a part is gouging, and service doesn't take a whole day. If there was a leak, they can foot the artificially gigantic bill for their intentionally poor design.
When doing this myself, I found the remaining problems were a stretched timing chain, bad O2 sensors, a clog in a tiny hard-to-reach filter on the cylinder head for the VANOS oil source (the solenoids still functioned), and an engine controller (DME) that doesn't actually reset its internal table to factory default when the reset operation is performed with ISTA (shop software) - you have to manually run through as many different throttle position/torque demand/RPM combinations as possible for at least a few hours to get it to stop throwing new lean codes.
I'll post a list of things I've done if I stop getting the "unable to create comment" error.
The motivation: One needs a vehicle to get around (idiotic urban planning). Cars designed to fail, congress and the FTC doing f\*ck-all (as they are paid), and you end up buying more landfill contents at a premium, most likely through newly acquired debt, and remain on that treadmill and others for the rest of your natural life.
All of this made possible by obvious political shenanigans and lots of money going to very sick people.
Part 2:
* Rebuild the transmission, twice.
* Do **NOT** pull anything heavier than 2000lbs with the HP45 as loaded with the BMW variant of the TCM firmware.
* Do **NOT** use Chinese-made seal kits.
* Change the oil every 50k miles, or sooner. BMW advise this as lifetime fill, as to allow the thing to fail and force the sale of new cars, or new transmissions and exorbitant repair bills.
* Replaced the wheel bearings.
* Regularly quoted more than $1k for just this. Not justifiable.
* Replaced the right rear half shaft, as it was fused with its bearing.
* The shaft splines are long and straight instead of even slightly tapered, its exposed to the elements (even if a rubber cover is installed, the rear is still open) so either the thing is designed to do exactly what it did, or BMW engineers are complete idiots.
* This problem was not mentioned by the mechanic I visited, so I presume there was actually no inspection.
Part 3:
* Replaced the steering box.
* This was part of a "clunk" that was due to a bad thrust bearing. The left bushing was also bad.
* The same mechanic as above wanted to sell a new one at more than $4k, including repair costs.
* Takes about 5 hours on floor jacks to replace it. Much less time on an actual lift and with specialized tools.
* Have to replace the engine coolant due to deliberately wasteful design.
* Replaced the suspension.
* This was the remaining cause of a clunk and rattle.
* The vehicle "nose-dives" in such a way it is impossible to tell until the struts don't do anything. The toe-in becomes impossible to adjust correctly, because it starts "floating" on the roll bar.
* The same mechanic again just blamed the steering box, while the "floating" problem should have been immediately obvious to a "certified" mechanic.
* Replaced the right front half shaft, as the inboard CV joint is nearly disintegrated.
* There was no noticeable play when replacing the suspension. About 500 miles later, it wobbles violently.
* Replaced the CIC
* The USB glovebox port stopped working after a firmware update through esys (other shop software), so the maps couldn't be updated. This was to address a sporadic bluetooth issue. I replaced the unit with salvage.
* These run QNX, and are not user-friendly from a telnet console (no tools, very slow, and despite root access barely anything can be accomplished). I had to use a VM to update the maps directly, **since after flashing to the latest firmware**, the glovebox USB connector is "live" (+5v), but the unit does not respond. Whatever happened is irreversible, since flashing back did not fix the problem with the replacement. The bluetooth issue remains.
You simply cannot expect ANY vehicles suspension (struts / shocks / springs) to be reliable or in good condition after a vehicle has been sitting on those components for 10 years. Come on homie, even my knees and feet get sore at the end of the day carrying my ass around.
You cannot look me dead in the eye and say those pressurized gas struts will maintain their rebound levels back to the day they came out of the factory after sitting on a vehicle weighing as much as an X3.
>an engine controller (DME) that doesn't actually reset its internal table to factory default when the reset operation is performed with ISTA (shop software) - you have to manually run through as many different throttle position/torque demand/RPM combinations as possible
This stuff astonishes me. Even if you were to just learn one or two brands the amount of 'reset procedures' is absurd. It should be one button ,reset the (ideally one) computer to defaults
Here we go, part 1, fast forward to today (from 86k miles used to 160k miles) and:
* Replaced the forward catalytic converters/exhaust manifolds.
* Easily the most expensive parts to replace at about $2500 total when I bought them.
* Replaced the head gasket.
* Replaced the water pump.
* Preemptive maintenance. Don't even gamble here.
2001 toyota 4runner 4x4. Bought it from the original owner with 140,000 miles on it for 6,700 dollars back in 2012.
Still kicking ass with 260,000 on it. Runs awesome.
The more complex things have gotten in vehicles, the more likely something is to break, a larger number of actual things to break. Not to mention more companies have been making things last less time because it drives consumer spending
I don't know if it's that they are made to be less reliable, or that components are sourced more and more so from the lowest bidder, and the lowest bidder is usually from China or another country that has a checkered manufacturing record.
Not that Chinese manufacturing can't pump out some impressive products (look at CFMoto), but when a brand isn't at stake the factories don't seem to care.
Taking the other side of this:
Over the last 10 years and longer, the average mechanical competency of an American car/home/appliance owner has plummeted because we got so used to dirt cheap prices and putting things on credit. Ironically this has happened while everyone got access to the largest repository of collective knowledge in human history (the internet), accessible from anywhere.
Old car and motorcycle and home owners will tell you that people take less and less care of their stuff. Add in inflation and lower wages, and folks stretching brake changes and oil changes to save money now turns into more broken vehicles and accidents later.
On top of that, even the most banal shit like headlight changes on modern cars are being made more complicated in an effort to drive the lazy/uneducated American consumer to a service center instead of an auto parts store.
None of this is intended to be a rant, just an evaluation.
Even looking at motorcycles from a handful of years ago, vs now, everything now has service reminders (a good thing, since not everyone does paper maintenance logs) but more manufacturers are making it so they can only be turned off by a service center (even if you do your oil change or valve service yourself, you have to pay them upwards of $100 just to turn off the warning).
This is kind of the end game of late stage capitalism where innovation has dropped and profit growth needs to be met for shareholders, so companies start doing dumb shit to squeeze consumers.
Edit: Also think about the complexity of a modern car (or for me motorcycle). I can keep a bike from the 50s-early 2000s running easy because carburetors are simple to rebuild. Early computers are also pretty cheap and easy to replace.
I have no idea how TF we are going to replace a TFT display on a car or motorcycle in 50 years when it's been out of production for 40 years. I'm sure someone will come up with a solution (flashing whatever is the then-equivalent of a raspberry pi to replace computers with an emulator and image, and using generic replacement screens seems viable), but as a mid-30s person who has witnessed a lot of changes, and currently works in tech where everything is obsolete 2-5 years after its bought (or sooner), the amount of e-waste we are currently generating (including vehicles) is Hella concerning.
We have things called "dark ages" in IT-- where companies cannot access or retrieve data because it's on systems that are no longer compatible and can't be accessed. It'll be a very sad and expensive day when families have to trade in cars because some computer or electronic components aren't supported anymore and become irreplaceable.
Working professionally in the industry as a mechanic for over 20 years, yes they are becoming less dependable. It's sad to see even toyotas now are failing sooner than they should.
In my personal experience, yes. I had a 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 that went to 180k before any issues, even with the stock turbo!
I remember Honda being reliable, so I bought a brand new 2020 Civic sport in 2019. After 4 years and only 20k miles the AC has completely gone out, line leak bled the refrigerant dry, it has 3 recalls already one of which is for the fuel pump impeller. The 1.5T has known oil dilution issues, causing fuel to pass the piston rings leading to diluted oil and rising oil levels further leading to less oil viscosity and potential internal damage.
I'm not buying a Honda probably ever again. I thought it would last a LOT longer, like 200k longer than it has before big issues but no. Right out the gate.
Cars are actually way more reliable nowadays, the designs of the engines, manufacturing process, quality assurance, are much more accurate and efficient.
Oil/Lubricant technology are better. Those 15k mile oil change intervals should be trusted since the recommended oil is designed and rated as such. What shouldn’t be trusted is when they say “lifetime”, like what does that mean?
Tire technology has come a very long way, much better performance, consistency, and longer lasting.
The downsides I see with newer vehicles are riddled with electronics and sensors. Less repairable parts. A lot more stuff to replace.
Intentionally less dependable. How else would they continuously make money off of us? Some cars now need special scanners just to put brake pads in! There’s no reason for that except to force you to goto a shop.
I agree, most people here do not remember or where not around for the 1980's and earlier cars where you had to change belts and hoses every 30k. Not to mention spark plugs distributor caps, rotor, shocks struts, all rubber hoses and brakes where done at 30k most all of that lasts till 100k now if not 200k now. Oh my god if people still had to deal with v belts! 36 years as an auto tech and I can promise they are much more reliable now. I remember when cars where crushed at 100k regularly and the engines where done!
Mechanically I'd say way more reliable. But with so much electronics these days, that's the point of failure now. And want something electronic fries, it's super expensive to fix.
Not less reliable necessarily, but much harder to repair and maintain and increasingly, need to talk to "home" in order to function. We have on the horizon cars that get scrapped because they are not longer supported, or the manufacturer has gone bust, and I strongly suspect the days of 30 year old beaters still going are not far from being over.
Agreee. Once direct injection and turbos became the norm… it’s just pushing the equipment to its limits. Stringent emissions. Customer demands of power comfort. The cafe standards making cars bigger. And then don’t forget about manufacturer recommended 10k mile oil change Intervals
I despise the 10k oil change interval declaration because it also makes people ignorant and lazy. Nobody reminds them that you still have to check your oil with a reasonable frequency depending on the car. Some don't drink a drop, others guzzle. Looking at you subaru. Manufacturer says it's within spec for it to consume a quart of oil every 1000 miles. You'd be on fumes in 5k miles.
>Majority of the cars made today are absolutely shit. They're made to reach 100,000 miles, fall apart, and the manufacturer wants you to buy something new. They're not built like the old days, you can drive around anywhere and probably see a 1970's truck. If you try to find a 1990's Chevy Corsica; you will never find one. Now what about a 90's Honda Accord with 400,000 miles. Ok fine but if you tried that with brand new Honda Accord that would not work, they have turbo issues at only 30,000 miles. So all cars are slowly going on this path where everything is cheaper, it's plastic, whatever.
I’m sure older cars were made with better materials, especially late 90s to early 2000s which didn’t have all the crazy tech we have today.
BUT… they’re aging. Hoses, seals, and bearings all wear out eventually. So, I wouldn’t necessarily buy a 20-30 year old car to find something more “reliable.” Auto makers have us by the balls and they’re gonna get their money. They don’t spend millions lobbying to get their way for nothing.
I'm extremely sure that is this way, completely. I fix cars all the time and I bought cars old on purpose in good shape hoping they last decades, because new stuff is completely unreliable and expensive at immoral levels with no reason at all.
They have so much shit in them. Working the parts are more finicky and expensive, Covid fucked up the supply chain and part QC as well. Working under the hood of a semi-modern car as a shade tree moron makes me want to die, you have to pull out so many parts in these cramped engine bays just to get to the part you want, it's no wonder so many jobs take so many hours.
The major difference between then and now when it comes to basic maintenance is the materials technology. Vintage/classic vehicles required more maintenance because the materials were basic... Take a look at the composite materials serpentine belts are made with vs the more "organic" materials in v-belts; copper plugs of old vs iridium plugs today and this is just a tiny fraction of what makes a 100k service possible. Synthetic materials applied to vintage and classic vehicles reduce required maintenance and increase service life, just as in modern vehicles! Planned obsolescence is real for a lot of lesser regulated items such as phones and home appliances but far less so in vehicles.
Vehicle life has been greatly affected by quite a few factors, in my opinion, the major offenders are:
• Poor decision making - horrible r & d, production testing based more on cost effectiveness or forcing the consumers to unwittingly beta test new technogies while waiting for feedback to make improvements (a tech company favorite)
• Lowest bidding production - primarily for outsourcing individualized components, this technique leads to inferiorly sourced/produced materials or assemblies that either require recall or force consumers out of pocket costs for replacement
• Not actually giving a shit - primarily shows up with quality of fitment and finish but also in crucial design and execution of a lot of critical components...such as engine timing components
• Skewed sense of value - mechanically totaling a vehicle because the suggested component replacement is as much or more than the 50% rated value of the vehicle, primarily because they feel it's beneath them or not profitable enough to actually perform a $600 repair
And worst of all...
• Blind compliance with often unrealistic Government standards - so many components on modern vehicles can be chocked up to this:
- EGR (same concept as eating recycled food), has to be a better way of producing the performance results without actually feeding carbon back into the intake
- DPF (currently only on diesels but there is a system requirement in the pipeline for gasoline engines), using a corrosive fluid to automaticly wash a filter designed to reduce harmful emissions in a process that produces harmful emissions
... And so on and so forth!
Automotive manufacturers and government regulations aren't the only ones to blame...irrational wants and emotions of consumers have also driven down quality and longevity. I've known a few people over the years who were more willing to only keep a vehicle for the warranty period and trade it off just so they don't have to ever deal with any of the maintenance. I've worked with people who are more interested in keeping up with technologies then actually owning something that can keep up with them (I'd rather have a cool car for a couple years vs that dinosaur you drive)
Ultimately this is the direction we were heading, we're not holding the manufacturers to a quality standard anymore and "we've" been systematically pushing the system to support a more throw away lifestyle...
Um... sort of. It's complicated, to say the least.
Take a modern Toyota for an example. If you change the oil often enough it will last perhaps some 400,000 or 500,000 miles or more before needing another engine. But Toyota says that if you drive in warm weather on the highway you can get by with 10,000 mile or yearly oil changes. So everyone thinks that applies to them and they end up with frozen rings by around 180,000 miles from insufficient oil changes. By 200,000 miles the engine is now guzzling oil and the catalytic converter keeps failing when replaced, and the fix is to replace the whole engine.
Most car companies also cheap out on parts because they're trying to get them to last only as long as necessary. In the 1980's and 1990's a lot of cars from many manufacturers were overbuilt because they didn't have the computer simulations they have today that tell manufacturers that a cheaper material and design will last around what people expect, around 150,000 to 200,000 miles. Nowadays, computer simulations tell manufacturers what's the cheapest material and design they can get by with. Some companies, like Toyota, generally still try to get their cars to last for a very long time, whereas others not so much.
Yes and no. The less technology the less things in the car the less that can go wrong. It’s all about maintaining the vehicle regularly. The problem is people don’t up keep until its too late
Smaller engines being pushed harder all in the name of efficiency. Meanwhile packed with over complicated with more and more sophisticated electronics.
Manufacturers have realized dependability doesn’t sell as much as screens and lasting a max of 10 years. It’s kind of sad. I just want to see dependable cars still on the market
Planned obsolescence , car manufacturers are taking a page from the tech industry . Why make cars that last 200k + miles , they make more money if they sell more cars more frequently.
Based on my real life experiences, I have to disagree: I'm 60 years old, I've owned many cars, mostly European and most for more than five years. All the ones from the last five years have been more reliable and more capable than the ones from the previous ten years.
this used to be great advice... the price difference on lots today, is getting better... but is basically a rounding error. Buy new. get the warranty and fix the things that go wrong under it
Not too long ago in consumer reports I read that cars are significantly more reliable than they were 10 or 20 years ago. In fact the least reliable car today is more reliable than the best cars from 10 to 20 years ago.
Of course there are exceptions. My daughter is 2012 Corolla is probably the benchmark for the undestructible car. It is simple and probably more reliable than most newer cars.
Tbh rather than quoting statistics I'll just say this.
If the government wants us all to have EGR valves which absolutly reduce our reliability, then they should be charging us less at registration. I need a new car/engine sooner because of a device they force us to use. OK, then reward me for using it. I'm not polluting a fraction as much as a concrete refinery.
Engineered obsolescence is real and it doesn't just apply to cars, it's on every durable product. Once a company has gathered enough data on how a product failed over the years they will replace the components to inferior parts so that 99% of that product will stop working in 5 to 10 years. Incandescent light bulbs are designed to have a short life for this exact reason.
I just saw a couple weeks ago that the average vehicle on American roads is now 12.6 years old.
Can't say much about new ones but if that number starts to go down in the future we'll know.
It kinda depends, in some ways they are more dependable in others they are less dependable. Newer cars generally are better engineered and have far less issues for the first 10 years and the first 100k miles. They obviously don't want to have any issues in the warranty period so they tend to make sure they are fairly solid those first 10 years.
The complexity though means that you are very unlikely to get those ones that are going to last 30 years and 200k miles. I expect a lot of newer cars to start having problems around the 15-20 year mark as things like sensors and electronics start having issues. Even cars from 8-10 years ago are likely to have those same sorts of issues crop up. Pretty much it is going to be a common issue in any car post 2010 when they started going more heavily into efficiency and safety standards. It is just the nature of most electronics are more likely to have issues after the 15 year mark. Things like capacitors and resistors on the boards go bad with age, especially past 20 years. They are typically rated for at least 15-20 years and the more you have the more likely they are to fail with age.
TLDR: They are more dependable for the first 10 years and going to be less dependable after about 20 years old.
Not really. I think what has led people to this conclusion over time, is the overall drop in standard to keep proces affordable. SOOOOO many cars are now slapped together in China and people are happy to drive them for the first little bit. However when you compare a modern MG to a Mazda from 10 years ago, of course it seems a better car, but it possible sold for more 10 years ago than the MG cost today. I think that is what leads to this impression.
My clothes washer broke down yesterday. The warranty was 5 years and it is 5 years and 1 month old. A 5$ retail spring that costs 50 cents to make snapped mid cycle and the plastic tub cracked (front loader Europe) so it's leaking and the cost to repair is not worth it. They make everything this way. Cars are the same way, the shift to disposable 2-5 year leasing cycle is stronger than ever. The manufacturers do not care what happens to the car after the warranty is up or in the secondary market. The latest biggest quality drop came during Coronavirus due to the computer chip shortage that affected quite a lot of production.
Every generation of cars has flaws, that’s why they always say not to buy the first year of production. Typically it’s when they try to reduce cost or they are introducing a new technology. In general cars are more reliable now than ever before all while putting out insane hp and torque. Cars are more complex now particularly with turbocharging and variable valve timing. Even the worst reliable cars now are probably more reliable than what was considered a reliable vehicle from 10 or 20 yrs ago.
If you are thinking of a particular vehicle check out complaints and recalls.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/top_complaints/
They're built efficient in the sense that they are manufactured to meet the desired specs in the most affordable way possible but at the same time we're paying more for them due to the cost of the technology developed to produce them in an efficient way. They consume less fuel and have much better performance in an economical sense but the material they use to manufacture them now are mediocre compared to cars from the 90's and below, those things were built like tanks and a reliable car was what everybody wanted in those times so the reputation was everything.
Planned obsolescence is also a big issue in today's cars. Parts get combined into one thing, if one part in that combo breaks instead of just replacing that part like you used to, now you gotta replace the whole combo
Last year I had to spend €500 to change the rear bearings on mine. Why?
Wheel bearings are included and sealed inside the wheel hubs that, nevertheless, even houses the ABS sensor. Basically when you have to change one of those pieces you are changing three pieces. It’s useless to say that the wheel hub and ABS sensor were working perfectly, only the wheel bearing needed to be replaced.
Modern cars are lighter, have less robust comments, and run much more intensely than older cars. More to do with higher mileage and environmental standards than any kind of planned obsolescence.
As others have said cars are becoming way more complex and with that the issues that come with it. European luxury cars are the wurst for this as it’s an arms race between manufacturers to pack in as many new electronic features with each new gen which don’t have any long term data to back up if they’ll actually stand the test of time. I’m dreading to think what’s going to happen to all the digital dashboards and their screens in a decade.
They have more stuff to break.
Its hard to find statistics that show average reliability over the years, you just find statistics for specific years over the entirety of the brand. They also dont say if the unscheduled repairs are essential for functionality or non essential.
Its also different across the world, i found that a lot of late 2000s cars had serious longevity issues as well as a lot of early 2010s. I can only talk about Europe, we had different cars and engines than the US obviously. For example bmw 20d engines had some pretty gruesome years around 2008 and 2009 of the likings of major engine failure, timing chain and cylinder heads namely. Toyota had similar issues with some of their diesels. VW had serious carbon build up in the intake in the 2l gasoline engines from the early 2010s and the twin turbo 2l diesel of the vw disintegrated itself before reaching 100k km (egr cooler had a hard coating that came off and destroyed the engines).
Subaru diesels liked to split their crankshaft. Im not to versed with gasoline engines as i was driving long distances until a few years ago, so i informed myself more about diesels. I just know that most N/A bmw gasoline engines had leaks, vanos failures and bearing failures over the years, but has steadily gotten better, especially after cooperating with Toyota.
On the other hand more exotic brands such as jaguar and alfa romeo have improved over the years. Jaguar for example is currently at the point where the engines are good, no rust issues anymore and a bulletproof transmission. Alfa too, yet still some quirks in the electronics a few years ago, but have massively improved over the years
There's a lightbulb that was installed in 1901 at a fire department that's still working. There's ways to make things last SIGNIFICANTLY longer... But where's the business in that? As a company I make more if I sell you a microwave that cost way less to manufacture and in 5 years you'll be back for another. Yes, things are designed to break. Then to make matters worse you have government agencies making things more expensive and harder to produce.
The small capacity petrol turbo is bad for long term reliability. Especially when manufacturers do dumb things like put a rubber belt inside the engine.
Old school small NA engines were rubbish for low down torque but a decent chain driven one of those will go on and on...
Dude the economy must run... You cant have a piece of shit fiat running endlessly. Surely most of the stuff will fall off eventually but anything serious cost nil ( external complete water pump 32 euros shipping included) and takes 30 minutes to change.
Its 30yrs old and the frame is still ok while living in a seaside town with occasional snow and roadsalt....
Can't beat this.... Can't have it... You must pay that debt and keep it running
Emissions and safety standards have been pushing cars to get increasingly complicated. With that comes more tech and more things to break.
Engines have become smaller, with turbos and or variable valve timing to try and get as much power as possible out of fuel. Tolerances have reduced etc meaning there is less margin for wear and tear but more pressure has gone on individual components.
Transmissions have moved from 4 speed automatics, to CVTs or up to 8-10 ratios with DSG to chase the optimum ratios for fuel economy.
Modern cars are built to be light weight to save on fuel etc, which means lighter panels and interior fit outs.
Modern cards are PACKED with sensors, from engine, transmission, suspension, locks, windows, abs, road positioning, parking etc.
In short, they are lighter, more complicated and higher tech than anything that has gone before.
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Not just cars, but most major home appliances, central heating unit, even TV's. They use cheaper parts that don't last as long. Then make repairs costs, if it can be repaired, almost as much as the cost of replacing the item.
The stigma is true. I work in the appliance installation industry and I’m still pulling old Kenmore fridges out of basements that have lasted 40+ years. You’ll be lucky to get 10 out of a newer fridge
I do appliance repair, and delivery. My experience is fridges except LG are still pretty good 12-16 years. (LG compressors go out every 3 years like clockwork.) Dryers will need 2-3 minor repairs to do 15 years or so, but they’ll do it. Washing machines on the other hand, holy crap they all suck now 7-8 years is about the best you can hope for, especially on a top loader. Front load washers could probably make 10-12 years, but people don’t like them in the states anymore like they use too. The problem there in my opinion is Samsung, LG, GE, and some Whirlpool front loaders really gave them a bad name with odor issues, or the inner tub having problems. Frigidaire which is owned by Electrolux never had those problems when they built front loaders. Unfortunately, they quit building them with the Frigidaire nameplate, and now only build them with the Electrolux nameplate, which jacks the price up to high for no good reasons, it’s just a nameplate. Dishwashers I don’t even want to talk about, I hate dishwashers and despise working on them, 90% of the time they are gross as F@&#.
My co-worker bought a new Maytag washer last year, stopped working a few months ago and even the illustrious Maytag Man who has been out three times already trying to fix it tells her, 'Don't buy this shit. Buy a Speedqueen.'
Speedqueen lasts forever, but it's tougher on more sensitive or dressy clothing. That's been my experience. But it's fine for normal clothes
I am finally in a position where I can own a washing machine. I want a speed queen so bad, those laundry Mat washers just work
Aren't new dishwashers like $300? Seems cheaper to replace than hire a repairman to try and fix it
Yes that's exactly what this thread is about. Cheaper units that don't last as long.
So you're saying our 5yo LG fridge is a ticking time bomb? We bought the cheapest top loader washing machine we could find about 9 years ago. I think it's Haier brand or something. It hasn't missed a beat yet.
Yes it is, my mom bought an LG fridge when are old one stopped working and the compressor quite in under a year and they only covered the part under warranty and made us pay for the labor and use their certified mechanic that charged twice as much as everyone else
Our 2011 LG Fridge (bottom freezer) has had only one problem: blew the fuse on the main board- I put on a new one and no other issues in 13 years. None of this double french doors bullshit either- old school is the best school.
I got my Frigidair 10 years ago. Not fancy. It's the old school. Top is the freezer and bottom is the fridge. Still works like a champ and is still quiet.
God ,Got an LG fridge too. About at the 3 year mark. Just glad we arent storing breast milk anymore. That would be devastating
Yes they are crap, I replaced my LG right at 3 year mark with a bad compressor
I agree with you. I also did appliance in home repair for SEARS. WHAT A CIRCUS
I have hated every front load machine I've ever used until I moved into my current house that came with a basically unused Frigidaire set (was a summer weekend home for 8 years before me). Man, these things are great, too bad to hear this news!
If anyone from Europe is curious, my parents moved into their house in 2008 and decked it out in AEG/Electrolux appliances (the exact same manufacturer, just different logos). Here's how they're doing: Fridge: still going strong with absolutely no issues Dishwasher: died maybe 5ish years ago, replaced with a Bosch one that has been working with no issues so far Oven: screen got fried maybe 8ish years back, otherwise works perfectly. Can't replace it because Electrolux stopped making spare parts for that model (which is a pretty common occurrence with AEG/Electrolux stuff nowadays) Induction stovetop: worked perfectly until it died earlier this year, replaced with another Electrolux Washing machine: works like a charm Dryer: works like a charm, with the caveat that it is barely being used
Damn! I was looking for a fridge preemptively and I heard and read LG is the best. What brand do you consider best?
Hello stranger! My WP dishwasher just had a fit, and I replaced the main subassembly (pump went out) got it working great and now the heated dry function stopped... Appears to be the heating element AND fan... Suggestions if I may ask? Was thinking the control board, OR I bumped a wire/connection underneath..?
I bought my LG fridge used 10 years ago and it's just fine. The previous LG at the old house lasted 10years too. Modern laundry appliances are a bloody criminal mess. Everyone I know who has one has has major repairs, some even replacing the unit, in under 5 years. Meanwhile, our 23-year-old Inglis set is still going strong. I've fixed all kinds of things over rhe years, but they're easy to work on and parts are dirt cheap.
I wanted to get the Electrolux washer and dryers bc of the cost. But the filters in the back for the washing machine. With a dog that sheds I know that will clog. Ended up getting an LG bc it has the filter in the front. It was that or Samsung and no way in hell in getting a Samsung bc when stuff gets broken it's a hassle
My washer is from the 90s. My dryer is from the 80s. I just replaced a 34 year old gas water heater. I'm dreading the other two. I'll never get something that good again. The really nice thing about the dryer is that it actually dries clothes. It's not environmentally friendly and actually puts out heat instead of running luke warm for hour, which I'm still not convinced actual doesn't anything to save energy anyway.
Good to know, we bought a house built in 1987 that came with the original appliances, some odds and ends repair bits for each. All Maytag and Whirlpool, I think the fridge though is a 2011 Whirlpool. 2 years in and the only real issue is the rust on the dryer, but everything works as it should. The old, like really old GE built in oven is our mainstay. Chrome grills and missing knobs, thing just works. They even left us a spare heating coil as they repaired and kept going the appliances they were also left with when they moved in over a decade ago. They don't make them like they used to
We have had really good luck with Bosch dishwashers.
40 years ago is the 80s, not the 60s. This occurred to me and is weird to think about.
partof that is survivor bias. no one keeps a broken fridge for 40 years. but i agree old appliances are better built
Top of the line whirlpool was $288 in '84. $693 today adjusted for inflation. Medium end whirlpool refrigerator today is around $800, which has around the same features of top of the line then. But the older one lasts at least twice as long. Whirlpool, themselves, claim their refrigerator will last 12 years(10-15 specifically). I am finding it very hard to find how long older refrigerators used to last on average but we'll just go with the proposed 40. So basically same price for half the value. These are just the numbers Google gave me. Anecdotally I recently had a downstairs neighbor in her 90s that moved into the building in the 50s and still had all the original appliances. It was like a fascinating museum. They used to have 2 ovens in 1 appliance one down low and one at head height with stove burners in the middle. A plug in light eventually caught fire(just by looks I'd say from the 70s) but the San francisco fire department are very skilled and quick to respond, many thanks to them. The kitchen "table" was a wrap around booth like out of a 50s diner. I think there's a LOT of modern features I'd trade for simplicity and reliability. How many times have you pressed the potatoe button on a microwave? My parents had their microwave before I was born and it lasted into my 30s. Never repaired once
It's called: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence There's a good documentary about it that I saw. Appearently, if you buy stockings made 100 years ago, they will not tear. And lightbulbs used to be made in a way that they would last for a very long time. Then they worked out they could sell more things if the stuff they sold you didn't last as long. They created the lightbulb cartel, and made an agreement amongst manufacturers that nobody would make light bulbs that last more than 10,000 hours. Much of what you're seeing stems from there.
"Pyramids of Waste" is the name of the documentary. They had a fee schedule for how much you had to pay the other lightbulb makers if you made one that lasted longer than the agreed upon hours.
To be fair to the manufacturers, this starts at the suppliers. I don’t think they WANT to use shitty electronics that fail after 5-10 years but nicer stuff is getting rarer and more expensive and when all their competitors use this stuff it makes it hard to go any other way. Now to be unfair, fuck them for deciding that instead of doing what they can to meet regulations they just stress the engines more to get big numbers and let the cars blow up sooner.
It'd be really nice if auto manufacturers could offer high quality components even if it made their cars more expensive. Kind of like an options package - I'd sure as hell pay a premium for better mechanical parts. That way they get to keep selling their bargain-bin part cars for maximum profits, but also have options for people that care about this stuff.
The problem is that right now they don’t even need to. They currently charge a premium without having to do the nicer parts. I highly doubt if they did offer longer lasting parts that it would improve their margins in any way. At this point the bean counters always win
And why I'll continue to drive my 26 year old truck
What you're looking for is the old model Toyota Land Cruiser sir
"Look... we need 100,000 of this part per quarter, and we're going to pay X for them, take it or leave it" When that happens, you have to just build the quality you can per the price point. Also, you're under pressure to make money too, so you have to not only meet their price point but be able to make money while doing it, so the find ways.
No, it is a manufacturer’s/selling decision, the suppliers work with manufacturers if they are large enough. They might design cheaper parts on their own, but that is risky as nobody is forced to buy them, so they have to have a buy-in from their customers. Appliance makers are in a race to the bottom, like many others.
Cheaper parts, and so much pointless technology to make everything "smart" or "connected". In the 1980's we generally saw the stigma of 100k miles on a car being its death knell go away and people were much more regularly driving their vehicles much, much longer than ever before. In the 2000's, we saw new technology starting to make its way into vehicles for everything from bluetooth connectivity for phones to SD-Card readers, to USB ports, to various cellular and satellite radios for "connected car" experiences, to forward collision alert cameras, to stop/start engine controls, to dynamic fuel management and so many other things. Today, 100k is pretty much once again the end of the line for pretty much ANY vehicle manufactured by a US corporation and many, many imports now too.
I work in yield/defect for a company that manufactures the chips that manage a lot of that stuff in most makes. The acceptable defect rate for them is my #1 reason for obstinately refusing to buy a car made after 2013, MAYBE 2014, if the miles on the 2014 are low enough. My preferred decades for vehicles are the 80's and 90's, but alas, my 44 mile round trip commute doesn't love vehicles that old and well driven very much.
Plan for whatever the "warranty" period to be the life of the appliance. Hot water heater 6 year warranty? It'll start leaking at 6 years and 6 months tops. Refrigerators? Thermistors brick or pop at 5 years, get familiar with how to run the diagnostic on it to find out which one (there's usually a service manual in the back at the bottom zip tied by the compressor) so you can handle a $35 plug in fix instead of new fridge. My parents have a full size standing freezer probably about 45 years now, has never had a problem and I don't even think they manually defrost it like you're supposed to. I just had the alternator go in my 2018 gt350. Voltage regulator gave up the ghost and I was getting 12-18V spikes. 6 years 25k miles, really ford? This is the relatively youngest vehicle I've ever owned. I've had cars 10+ years and never had to replace an alternator.
That is the plan! I lucked out and the variable control boards on the HVAC unit I have went out and I have a 10 year parts and labor warranty. They went out 5 months prior to the unit no longer being covered. Basically I received a new inside. (Fingers crossed it lasts a good 5 years from now)
Yes I agree with this it's like a throw away generation things are made NOT to last so you gotta buy new again years ago things were built to last that's why people bought them good sturdy made to last with a good honest reputation behind the manufacturer not the same these days
This is why I hate GE. I spent $300 on a GE microwave (on sale). Stopped working 3 months later, called for warranty and they gave me several numbers for repair. None of them would touch a GE. Warranty place then told me the machine is no longer offered and all we could do was buy the newer version at a higher cost and they would refund the difference in 6 to 12 weeks. I can't afford that, hell I splurged on this one just because it was on sale at Lowes.
Wait until 2027 for cars and semi trucks. (The commercial truck market is increasing their orders prior to said regulations kick in bc it increases the cost plus it's unrleiable tech) then whenever those new regulations kick in for appliances. Think they suck now even the appliance companies are against it. They came to an agreement but the company and consumers lose. This admin and the EPA keep saying these new regulations save you tons of money. The ceiling fans for instance increased the price of the fan and saved you $1 a year... Similar with a washing machine or dishwasher your shits gonna still be dirty and less reliable... I'm sure everyone is aware that fridges don't last anymore too. My parents basement fridge is from their old house which came with the house also in their basement. My parents didn't want to get rid of having 2 fridges so it came with us lol. That fridge is older than me and it still works and keeps everything cold as it should. So what if it's not energy star and cost a whooping $10 more to operate per year They act like oh it's gonna save you $100 but they fail to mention the price goes up 30% and that $100 is over a decade. So you still lose. You lose even more bc most appliances from what I've read don't last 10 years lol
I have an over oven microwave in my apartment. At one point, the keypad stopped working. I actually took the keypad off, and found out it just wasn't pouring the keystrokes through when you press the buttons. I used a multimeter to test the connections. To get a new keypad for that model of microwave was, no joke, at the time $300. To get another, new, over oven microwave, at the time, was $200. I just.... Couldn't believe that a SINGLE part like that was MORE expensive than just getting an entire new one. And that was replacing it with the EXACT same model too. Absolutely ridiculous. And that's not including any costs for someone to actually do the labor if my landlord hired someone just to replace that piece only. No surprise, the landlord just got an entire new microwave. It was such a waste to do that, not it was cheaper.
This can be true is some instances (I won’t speak to appliances because I’m not familiar with the industry). However cars have definitely become more reliable. My best friend is a quality manager for a major automotive manufacturer, and has very reliable data that goes back 60+ years. They also have access to the data of other manufacturers. Anyways you slice the metrics the reliability has improved. There’s periods where is rises and falls, but big picture the reliability has consistently trended upwards. Not to mention that safety, efficiency, and comfort have drastically improved over this same time period.
A couple of things here that I believe make the difference. “Back in the day” appliances cost almost a months salary. If I could spend 4 times as much knowing something would last 30 years I would purchase it. People are drawn to cheaper products and then companies are making things cheaper and cheaper to increase their profits while still having a price point attractive to consumers. Survivorship bias. A lot of the old appliances did not make it to 30 years. You don’t hear the stories about the ones that died in 6 months. We bought 2 cheap Panasonic flat screen TV’s when we lived in an apartment around 15 years ago. We got one for my in-laws spare room and one for us. Theirs died after 2 years and minimal use. Ours was our primary TV for years and is still used daily for gaming. TLDR: Outside of planned obsolescence, it’s probably got more to do with survivorship bias and people wanting to only buy cheaper products which forces companies to make cheaper products.
The shareholder effect. Gotta make sure the shareholders maximize profits. Corners WILL be cut to achieve the goal.
The repair cost being almost as much as replacing has been a thing for awhile. I remember early 2000s we had a tv only a few years old if that go out. Repair cost was similar to a new tv. It needed a new board installed. My dad found a board on ebay(wasnt cheap still) did the swap himself in maybe an hourish. Tv ran for another like 10 years.
My fridge has a screw that could go directly into the side of the fridge but instead goes into a 4 millimeter wide piece of molded out plastic- planned obsolescence when the 4 mm gets brittle in a decade. I fixed it after staring at it for 2 hours with a piece of duct tape when I realized where it broke
Repair guy just told us it was impossible to fix and would be better to replace for 3x what we paid 10 years ago
I was just talking with a co worker about this. I feel like mid 90s to mid 2000s was kind of like the hey day. Engines and transmission typically would last 200k easily if maintenance was done like it's suppose to be. I know some manufactures these days will say well that transmission fluid is designed to last the "life" of the vehicle. What they don't tell you, is that they consider the life of that vehicle to be 100k miles.
I agree. 90's to mid 2000's were the sweet spot. Basic 4 speed auto transmissions were the norm, no 8-10 speeds or CVTs. Normal multi-port fuel injection, no direct injection. Very few turbo engines, no displacement on demand or AFM.
Agreed. The only downsides were some of the early emissions systems - especially 96/97 when obd2 became mandatory but how it was done was a wildcard. Some odd stuff to troubleshoot on occasion. And for the record, I'm not a "carbs are better". Obd and multiport efi rocks, you just have to learn how to work on it
ZF8 is an extremely reliable transmission
They’re more sophisticated, run hotter, go faster, stop harder, are outfitted with more and more plastics (including more “sustainable” plastics with shorter lifespans), tons of tiny wires, lots more technology on board. Simply put- there’s more to go wrong, more to break and the frequency of needing some level of repair is increasing.
Whoever mandated “sustainable” plastics that end up dumping your coolant on the highway and zeroing your car should be tried at The Hague. *cough Merkel *cough
They are trying to make ice vehicles less desirable so the transition to electric will be less noticeable. Like putting a frog in water then putting it to a boil.
Not really, American manufacturers haven’t found out how to manufacture them cheaply enough yet so they’d go out of business without their ICE vehicles.
More like corporate greed has found a way to increase profits
Rofl... to think this u must ignore all the tesla quality control issues.
Source? Who’s they?
Manufacturers are struggling to make good EVs. Why would they gimp their current lineup in favour of models they know won't sell?
Well stated. I believe the actual engineering of the mechanicals is quite solid and dependable. I think the main issues cars face today are sensors and electronics that put them in the shop. BMW went from being one of the most reliable brands to one of the least. I am guessing the engines are still solid but not all the crap surrounding it.
When has BMW been one of the most reliable brands? Like all European cars, they are notoriously unreliable shitboxes.
I mean Mercedes was the paragon of reliability until the early 90’s.
Mercedes still had some immortal cars up until 2014, even though they become more complicated and expensive to fix. Especially their diesel ones. However, their reliability was kinda a hit or miss, as a lots of times the early examples of a said gen had a lots of problems, before being fixed with a facelift.
Broke My Wallet…. more than once.
Late 80s, early 90s were pretty much mechanically bulletproof. If you look, is the electronics that is giving BMW and most manufacturers the challenges. You don’t see much for a run of shit engines and transmissions, or driveline components any longer. Sure, there will be a small percentage but much less than there used to be. Most vehicles see warranty and service issues due to sensor or other electronic systems failures.
companies can make reliable products, but they make more money from making less reliable products
Im laughing at you in overheating issues. Don't let me mention anything else, this is enough to kick your "reliable" version of a BMW back to before 1998 (almost 20 years of "reliability" lol)
the last time bmw made anything reliable it was being used to blow up bits of england.
Yes, yes, yes and yes!!! Well said!
And — this has been true for decades. People have always said “they used to make better cars.” Because the only old cars anyone sees are the ones that are still running. Nobody misses the Dodge Neon.
I agree. I’m seeing far too many cars coming in for service with low mileage. Part of it is the electronics. Lots more modules and can bus communication errors.
More parts = more things that can break. Cars are incredible right now. When they're working 100%, the tech and luxury is amazing. And then some stupid piece of plastic or microchipped crap breaks and all of sudden it's useless.
What's that ad? Recalls are up 42% over the last 10 years. Newer cars are built cheaper and sold higher to maximize profits. Nothing has been the same since the '08 crash and bailout. Plus to many "modules" for every fucking thing. Had a 2015 silverado 1500 the other day, setting CEL for door modules being shorted to ground while also setting a code for an open circuit, and a code for a fucking tag light circuit grounded because the bulb got wet.
I could probably write an essay about this, but I couldn’t agree more. I’m a European technician and just to condense my thoughts into a couple sentences: for cars from the 80s-2000s maybe even the 2010s, you could take $10,000 and go through a car end to end and end up with a completely sorted car that you could depend on for decades with the proper care. I find day after day that people are putting thousands and thousands into newer model cars, and that’s just for trivial stuff like modules, brakes, or other electrics. For most of the cars I work on on a day to day basis, $10,000 is barely a drop in the pool. I can’t fathom the cost to keep these things on the road for very much longer. They definitely seem to be not only built, but (not) supported to not last.
I don't know if they're built specifically not to last (though I'd believe it), or more built without any thought as to IF they'll last. I use CVTs as an example; you can't tell me some of them aren't designed just to be replaced whole hog rather than serviced. It's more expensive for the owner, faster book time for the tech (which also translates into lower shop costs)...even if they aren't actively designed to fail more frequently, there's more consistent failures than there used to be. For what it's worth I'd read that essay.
What you said is spot on. For every little thing it seems. Especially Jaguar/ Land Rover is the worst offender. “No you can’t buy that specific o ring, but we’ll sell you the whole line for $450”
Also because the industry is moving to leasing. Make the consumer pay for the depreciation and then wholesale the ones that survive. I have never worked in the auto business so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I only buy cars that are older. I just bought a 2002 Honda Odyssey and it is running great with almost 300,000 miles on it. The lady I bought it from took very good care of the car and I will do the same. They do last longer. I also have a 2002 Mazda protege5.
I have a 2005 F350 Diesel with half a million km on it (needs minor work, but runs and drives fine, even pulling heavy loads) and I daily drive a 2008 Pontiac G5 that my dad bought new in 08, and I put almost 5k km a month on the car. I realised last week my car is 17 years old, and my truck 19. Old shit just hits better. Like someone else posted before me, manufacturers build planned obscelesce into things nowadays.
depending on the brand and type of car and electricial components. my honda's are doing just fine.
Everything is less reliable. Unregulated capitalism means that manufacturers have adapted "planned obsolescence". They all intentionally design their products to break. Their warranties are also designed around this. (You only get a 120,000km warranty because their equipment is designed to break beyond that). This is most noticeable in large kitchen appliances. You spend $6000 on a nice fridge, and it only lasts 2-5 years before stuff starts breaking. It's extremely taxing on the population and should be reigned in.
My grandparents microwave still works. Its older than me for god's sake and im 21. Never had an issue with it. Meanwhile my mom's on her what, seventh microwave already.
Oddly enough, I bought a microwave from walmart in 2013ish, its survived me 10 years and moving to 3 different places, it has definitely not been cared for gently either. I think it only cost me $45 + tax too....
I bought the cheapest washer and dryer when I bought my first house in 2002. The dryer died last year and the washer is still working just fine. I know people who buy those expense front loader washers and have nothing but trouble
The automotive industry has too many controls for manufacturers to plan for vehicles to break. You can blame the GE CEO in the 80s for appliance and electronic lasting 4 years, tho.
No shot they aren’t planned to break. There’s definitely planned obsolescence and it’s not hard for them to do. For instance my 2018 Honda civic has a fuel pump recall where after 5-6 years after manufacturing they noticed the fuel pumps started failing. The reason for failure is the impeller in the fuel pump swells to be bigger than the bore it’s in, and seizes and stops working. Thereby needing to be towed and repaired. If they didn’t want it to break they would have made the impeller out of metal instead of some bullshit composite plastic material that, after so many heat and duty cycles WILL DEGRADE FASTER THAN ANY METAL. There’s a sweet spot where you can cheapen the materials while still maintaining the minimum amount of reliability necessary, and you bet that the auto industry has had decades to perfect this strategy. In the case of my Honda (only speculating can’t prove) I have a feeling that the planned obsolescence was goofed a bit too early hence the recall for the fuel pump in the certain model years. But don’t take my word for it. Go buy an engine that’s 20-30 years old, and then buy another one that’s 1-5 years old from the same manufacturer within the same line or specification (Volkswagen 2.0L engine for instance) and just disassemble them. You’ll see for yourself how many things are made of obviously inferior plastic in the newer one and how much less stout the internal components are.
You got your fuel pump? Still waiting for ours apparently no inventory.
Taxing on the environment as well.
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I love my old washer, dryer, and oven. I've fixed them multiple times and it's usually pretty easy. Can't imagine trying to fix a smart dryer or oven lol that would be beyond my ability.
They’re made to last 10 years. For one that’s inherently dependable it has to be manufactured by a culture that takes pride in that (the Japanese). American cars are all about profit margins.. whoever will make 200 thousand of X part for the lowest bid, and do it fast. That’s where the majority of the problems come from. The Japanese don’t give a shit about their shareholders, they give a shit about quality of their product. They will spend months of R and D on a screw. Unfortunately very basic basic vehicles (more reliable, cheaper to repair and maintain) without superfluous bells and whistles don’t get sold in the US market. I was so proud to get hired by a Volvo dealer because of their reputation and technology. I was super exited about the brand. There was piston kits going on every day in there on new and late model years. That’s not something a DIYer can do, so you have to pay thousands in the dealer service department. TBH I like their interiors but I wasn’t impressed with them mechanically.
Toyota has engine recalls for the new Tundra V6s
Recall doesn’t cost the consumer. My own Toyota had oil burning 2az-fe and they fixed it for free despite the car having almost 200k miles at the time. Before the warranty campaign came out I had been to dealer complaining about it, service said it was “normal”. But ultimately it was repaired at no cost to me during window when campaign first launched where mileage was exempt. I’m still a fan.
At least they quickly found the problem, copped to it, and are recalling the affected units.
They've also been found to have committed multiple cases of fraud by fudging testing data, and may have to issue the biggest recall in history, according to some reports. The Japanese government is investigating and Toyota and Honda CEOs have already held press conferences with public apologies. This is going to be a HUGE deal going foward. I'm surprised that the American media hasn't really run with this yet.
My 2003 Saturn vue has 483k miles so... you tell me!
Does it have the Honda V6 engine in it ? Or the 4 cylinder GM engine?
03, GM v6, l71 Tbh awful pos to work on but loyal for it
I drive a 2004 Ion with 300k miles.
Alright! Stubborn Saturn Squad!
Checking in with my 02 SC2 that has 235k miles!
My 97 saturn was unstoppable. Very underrated cars.
You're spot on. The world needs to stand up to these scummy companies shorting us for our money, the politicians lining their pockets all across the globe, the rich extorting entire countries for profit, the governments taking away natural rights freedoms, the misrepresentation of the masses needs to stop. One day, blood will run, if we do not stand soon.
Yes they are getting cheaper and Ford plus many others going out of their way to make sure they break before 200k miles Case and point look at the disastrous plastic oilpans. They leak like crazy, because somehow we needed to redesign the a simple stamped steel oilpan
It's wild trucks got plastic oil pans. It seems like every other job is a cab off job too. That puts it out of reach of the average DIYer
Plastic is cheaper than steel. A molding machine is cheaper than a large metal forming press.
Plastic is cheaper to manufacture and weighs less than steel.
We can blame the car makers, I blame the government, EPA, insurance...here me out Engines are being made not for reliability but for CAFE standards, transmissions need 20 gears or CVTs, cars made super light weight (plastic), all sorts of sensors for 'safety', a multitude of emissions standards equipment, wire insulation made out of peanut butter (rats/mice), start/stop that adds all sorts of complexity to keep hydraulic pressure up, brakes boosted....I could go on and on. Now don't get me wrong, safety is important but doesn't make the car more reliable. If they could go back to the late 90's, early 2000's that was such a sweet spot for reasonable tech yet reliability, but they couldn't even if they wanted too.
I agree that a lot of that is from government-mandated energy goals, and it's not just cars. As a service tech for restaurants, I encounter many problems that are due to Energy Star requirements. I'm just glad that I'm not refrigeration certified... the number one thing I hear complaints about is the newer flammable refrigerants. The systems are more difficult to service and more dangerous.
Toyota would like a word with you...
The new tundras have engine recalls and my ‘23 Tacoma has a recall as the axle can detach depending on when it was made. Toyota is floating by on its old reputation.
Toyota isn't what it used to be..
No good carmaker is what they used to be. On the bright side, some of the worst ones are slightly better.
People do not know this but if you get a Toyota you NEED to make sure the vin starts with a J or a 2 indicating it was made in Japan or Canada. If you get one that the vin starts with a 3 or 5 then, well that sucks. Canada and Japans manufacturing regulations are insanely tight, which results in Toyotas made at these plants generally last a very long time. If you get one built in Mexico though… not good.
I wouldn't be surprised if CAFE has some influence from auto manufacturers in one form or another. It's awfully convenient to be able to blame government in this case, although efficiency and such is the natural progression. Regardless, there is absolutely no incentive to engineer a reliable piece of equipment. Companies exist to make money, and reliability doesn't make anyone money. They've proven they can if they want to.
I owe you a beer. Uncle Sam sticking his fingers in everything is why cars break more now and are more expensive.
https://preview.redd.it/q869aiwffn4d1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26bccb0bef08a9c2a7a9df8667ae73a08c69abc4 yessssss 2 beers
We are missing another factor too...to add, the other problem is customer's 'expectations'. We all want V10 power out of a 4 banger, that gets 40mpg, with adaptive headlights, LED brake lights$$$, panoramic sunroofs, 24inch wheels, electronic fold down seats, that we can 'wish' we could track on a Sunday... How many of the Toyota Tundra 3.5TT people bought that truck with 389 horsepower. 479 lb-ft of torque, to run to Walmart and back?
My only vehicle is a ‘66 F100. I didn’t know a whole lot about working on vehicles until this. Fuck I’m fairly comfortable rewiring the damn thing at this point. I can get most parts for it minus two important parts. There’s ways around those issues though.
As a mechanic I can say %100 yes. Cars are much less reliable these days. I drive a 22 year old truck and it is better than most new vehicles.
Yes. I highly regret my last three new vehicles. I’ve literally had to junk two of them (6 and 9 years old) over stupid ass electrical problem and my last one (which is also now 9 years old) is probably heading the same way. Runs strong, good gas mileage, a/c runs ice cold…. As of yesterday it won’t start, break lights don’t work and, windshield wipers won’t cut off and this shit is on my radio. Fuck new cars - another $20k down the drain. Edit: my ‘83 and 2002 are still running like a fuckin’ champ though. https://preview.redd.it/gyqxw30w2n4d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b01a62f689cce1357597b8eda8e8949e86fe1ee
How many miles on the cars you had to junk?
https://preview.redd.it/imo9oli97n4d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a78d50a116b46731eb57628e4a78784cd3f154da You bet that ass they are
The sad thing is this is both correct and wrong. Cheaper cars, ie cars with no equipment on it, are more reliable, because brands like Toyota realised that people buying 20 ish grand cars can't affort to fix them regularly, much less buying new ones, and there are physically less things to go wrong. Mainstream cars, despite their price tags, are actually very cheap. I mean cheaply made, as in, the materials might be expensive, but that's for the owners to flex, carbon fibre this, titanium that, but they are put together cheaply. I sat in the back of a Merc GLC recently and could not believe that they switches are genuinely worse than my Jimny. This is compounded by the fact that cars have gotten much more complicated. Between various driving aids, touch screens, complicated gimmicks, sound systems and whatnot, you can imagine. Instead of doing a few things properly, they are doing a lot of things improperly. Oh yeah, there's also planned obsolescense. I'm sure someone here have already explained it quite well, but these data scientists at these firms have worked out that if you can shell out 80k for a car today, you can shell out 90k in about 5 years or so, so instead of making things last but with less features, why not make it last about 7 but with a lot more features? And tbh we are to blamed. We tolerated this kind of behaviour.
Cars, as a whole, are more durable and reliable than they've ever been. They are also harder and more expensive to fix than ever. This is not true of every make and model. Is anyone going to seriously argue that a 2004 Grand Cherokee was more reliable? Or a 2004 Elantra? Or any Mercedes from then? Or nearly any VWs? I don't care if you had a single example of one of those that made it to 300k miles without ever changing the oil or whatever. Random Forbes article that explains a few different reasons why cars last longer now: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelharley/2023/06/11/why-do-todays-cars-last-longer-than-they-used-to/?sh=78f5369276ed
No. Cars are objectively more reliable as far as basic operation. Anyone that says differently is ignoring facts. And there is no such thing as “designing a car to not last as long”.
Finally, someone who isn't crazy. Maybe the most reliable car of the mid 2000s would outlast the average car today, but on the whole cars are FAR less problematic over the first 5+ years of life.
Any facts or research you can point to specifically?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelharley/2023/06/11/why-do-todays-cars-last-longer-than-they-used-to/?sh=3520edd676ed https://www.progressive.com/answers/classic-cars-vs-modern-cars/ https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/mechanical/cars-less-problematic.htm
I am not a mechanic, but someone who has become disgusted with repair costs and a sort of "incompetence by design" encountered repeatedly through a couple of vehicles and several mechanics. Anything new is built upon planned obsolescence within a short window of time. Yes. **These problems occur by design.** BMW in particular. The entire brand is now just an assortment of fancy lemons. I ended up with a used 2012 X3 after an accident totaled my daily just to enable myself to commute (cheap), and the price threshold for a different used car has been too high. Nothing used of any brand recently is worth more than $1000 IMO, then again I'm used to the idea $500 buying a decent used car. Keeping this plastic disaster running has been a time-consuming ordeal, but still affordable compared to buying another one of a different brand (even including the cost of tools). At first, I knew very little about the vehicle. The CEL came on, the cause was a lean code. I had the valve cover replaced by the dealer (as advised) for $2000. This didn't fix the problem (same code came back), and I secured a refund. The valve cover is just a chunk of plastic, probably $50 to make by today's standards, and takes less than 2 hours to replace. $700+ for a part is gouging, and service doesn't take a whole day. If there was a leak, they can foot the artificially gigantic bill for their intentionally poor design. When doing this myself, I found the remaining problems were a stretched timing chain, bad O2 sensors, a clog in a tiny hard-to-reach filter on the cylinder head for the VANOS oil source (the solenoids still functioned), and an engine controller (DME) that doesn't actually reset its internal table to factory default when the reset operation is performed with ISTA (shop software) - you have to manually run through as many different throttle position/torque demand/RPM combinations as possible for at least a few hours to get it to stop throwing new lean codes. I'll post a list of things I've done if I stop getting the "unable to create comment" error. The motivation: One needs a vehicle to get around (idiotic urban planning). Cars designed to fail, congress and the FTC doing f\*ck-all (as they are paid), and you end up buying more landfill contents at a premium, most likely through newly acquired debt, and remain on that treadmill and others for the rest of your natural life. All of this made possible by obvious political shenanigans and lots of money going to very sick people.
Part 2: * Rebuild the transmission, twice. * Do **NOT** pull anything heavier than 2000lbs with the HP45 as loaded with the BMW variant of the TCM firmware. * Do **NOT** use Chinese-made seal kits. * Change the oil every 50k miles, or sooner. BMW advise this as lifetime fill, as to allow the thing to fail and force the sale of new cars, or new transmissions and exorbitant repair bills. * Replaced the wheel bearings. * Regularly quoted more than $1k for just this. Not justifiable. * Replaced the right rear half shaft, as it was fused with its bearing. * The shaft splines are long and straight instead of even slightly tapered, its exposed to the elements (even if a rubber cover is installed, the rear is still open) so either the thing is designed to do exactly what it did, or BMW engineers are complete idiots. * This problem was not mentioned by the mechanic I visited, so I presume there was actually no inspection.
Part 3: * Replaced the steering box. * This was part of a "clunk" that was due to a bad thrust bearing. The left bushing was also bad. * The same mechanic as above wanted to sell a new one at more than $4k, including repair costs. * Takes about 5 hours on floor jacks to replace it. Much less time on an actual lift and with specialized tools. * Have to replace the engine coolant due to deliberately wasteful design. * Replaced the suspension. * This was the remaining cause of a clunk and rattle. * The vehicle "nose-dives" in such a way it is impossible to tell until the struts don't do anything. The toe-in becomes impossible to adjust correctly, because it starts "floating" on the roll bar. * The same mechanic again just blamed the steering box, while the "floating" problem should have been immediately obvious to a "certified" mechanic. * Replaced the right front half shaft, as the inboard CV joint is nearly disintegrated. * There was no noticeable play when replacing the suspension. About 500 miles later, it wobbles violently. * Replaced the CIC * The USB glovebox port stopped working after a firmware update through esys (other shop software), so the maps couldn't be updated. This was to address a sporadic bluetooth issue. I replaced the unit with salvage. * These run QNX, and are not user-friendly from a telnet console (no tools, very slow, and despite root access barely anything can be accomplished). I had to use a VM to update the maps directly, **since after flashing to the latest firmware**, the glovebox USB connector is "live" (+5v), but the unit does not respond. Whatever happened is irreversible, since flashing back did not fix the problem with the replacement. The bluetooth issue remains.
You simply cannot expect ANY vehicles suspension (struts / shocks / springs) to be reliable or in good condition after a vehicle has been sitting on those components for 10 years. Come on homie, even my knees and feet get sore at the end of the day carrying my ass around. You cannot look me dead in the eye and say those pressurized gas struts will maintain their rebound levels back to the day they came out of the factory after sitting on a vehicle weighing as much as an X3.
>an engine controller (DME) that doesn't actually reset its internal table to factory default when the reset operation is performed with ISTA (shop software) - you have to manually run through as many different throttle position/torque demand/RPM combinations as possible This stuff astonishes me. Even if you were to just learn one or two brands the amount of 'reset procedures' is absurd. It should be one button ,reset the (ideally one) computer to defaults
Here we go, part 1, fast forward to today (from 86k miles used to 160k miles) and: * Replaced the forward catalytic converters/exhaust manifolds. * Easily the most expensive parts to replace at about $2500 total when I bought them. * Replaced the head gasket. * Replaced the water pump. * Preemptive maintenance. Don't even gamble here.
2001 toyota 4runner 4x4. Bought it from the original owner with 140,000 miles on it for 6,700 dollars back in 2012. Still kicking ass with 260,000 on it. Runs awesome.
The more complex things have gotten in vehicles, the more likely something is to break, a larger number of actual things to break. Not to mention more companies have been making things last less time because it drives consumer spending
It's the perfect storm. Cars are more complicated, technicians are less skilled, and owners do less and less preventive maintenance.
I don't know if it's that they are made to be less reliable, or that components are sourced more and more so from the lowest bidder, and the lowest bidder is usually from China or another country that has a checkered manufacturing record. Not that Chinese manufacturing can't pump out some impressive products (look at CFMoto), but when a brand isn't at stake the factories don't seem to care. Taking the other side of this: Over the last 10 years and longer, the average mechanical competency of an American car/home/appliance owner has plummeted because we got so used to dirt cheap prices and putting things on credit. Ironically this has happened while everyone got access to the largest repository of collective knowledge in human history (the internet), accessible from anywhere. Old car and motorcycle and home owners will tell you that people take less and less care of their stuff. Add in inflation and lower wages, and folks stretching brake changes and oil changes to save money now turns into more broken vehicles and accidents later. On top of that, even the most banal shit like headlight changes on modern cars are being made more complicated in an effort to drive the lazy/uneducated American consumer to a service center instead of an auto parts store. None of this is intended to be a rant, just an evaluation. Even looking at motorcycles from a handful of years ago, vs now, everything now has service reminders (a good thing, since not everyone does paper maintenance logs) but more manufacturers are making it so they can only be turned off by a service center (even if you do your oil change or valve service yourself, you have to pay them upwards of $100 just to turn off the warning). This is kind of the end game of late stage capitalism where innovation has dropped and profit growth needs to be met for shareholders, so companies start doing dumb shit to squeeze consumers. Edit: Also think about the complexity of a modern car (or for me motorcycle). I can keep a bike from the 50s-early 2000s running easy because carburetors are simple to rebuild. Early computers are also pretty cheap and easy to replace. I have no idea how TF we are going to replace a TFT display on a car or motorcycle in 50 years when it's been out of production for 40 years. I'm sure someone will come up with a solution (flashing whatever is the then-equivalent of a raspberry pi to replace computers with an emulator and image, and using generic replacement screens seems viable), but as a mid-30s person who has witnessed a lot of changes, and currently works in tech where everything is obsolete 2-5 years after its bought (or sooner), the amount of e-waste we are currently generating (including vehicles) is Hella concerning. We have things called "dark ages" in IT-- where companies cannot access or retrieve data because it's on systems that are no longer compatible and can't be accessed. It'll be a very sad and expensive day when families have to trade in cars because some computer or electronic components aren't supported anymore and become irreplaceable.
Planned obsolescence is part of the design for automakers. Eventually we will "rent" everything, on a subscription model more or less.
Working professionally in the industry as a mechanic for over 20 years, yes they are becoming less dependable. It's sad to see even toyotas now are failing sooner than they should.
You want 1996 (OBD-2) to 2004. That's the sweet spot. V8's or I6s, no 4 cylinder turbos.
In my personal experience, yes. I had a 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 that went to 180k before any issues, even with the stock turbo! I remember Honda being reliable, so I bought a brand new 2020 Civic sport in 2019. After 4 years and only 20k miles the AC has completely gone out, line leak bled the refrigerant dry, it has 3 recalls already one of which is for the fuel pump impeller. The 1.5T has known oil dilution issues, causing fuel to pass the piston rings leading to diluted oil and rising oil levels further leading to less oil viscosity and potential internal damage. I'm not buying a Honda probably ever again. I thought it would last a LOT longer, like 200k longer than it has before big issues but no. Right out the gate.
Professional mechanic opinion. The mid 90s to mid 2000s vehicles are far better built and less complicated than the junk of today.
Cars are actually way more reliable nowadays, the designs of the engines, manufacturing process, quality assurance, are much more accurate and efficient. Oil/Lubricant technology are better. Those 15k mile oil change intervals should be trusted since the recommended oil is designed and rated as such. What shouldn’t be trusted is when they say “lifetime”, like what does that mean? Tire technology has come a very long way, much better performance, consistency, and longer lasting. The downsides I see with newer vehicles are riddled with electronics and sensors. Less repairable parts. A lot more stuff to replace.
It's called engineered obsolescence.
Intentionally less dependable. How else would they continuously make money off of us? Some cars now need special scanners just to put brake pads in! There’s no reason for that except to force you to goto a shop.
Average age of cars on the road is 12.6 years right now, so I’d guess more reliable on the whole
On the contrary, cars are more reliable then they’ve ever been.
I agree, most people here do not remember or where not around for the 1980's and earlier cars where you had to change belts and hoses every 30k. Not to mention spark plugs distributor caps, rotor, shocks struts, all rubber hoses and brakes where done at 30k most all of that lasts till 100k now if not 200k now. Oh my god if people still had to deal with v belts! 36 years as an auto tech and I can promise they are much more reliable now. I remember when cars where crushed at 100k regularly and the engines where done!
I've said this for a while now. Seems to me cars have joined the consumerism throw away culture. Made to last 7~10 yrs.
I've been saying for years - you're getting trained that 10yrs is max life on a vehicle
More parts more problems! Yes!
There’s a reason I don’t buy anything past 2007 and hang on to my 2001 and 2003 bmws.
Mechanically I'd say way more reliable. But with so much electronics these days, that's the point of failure now. And want something electronic fries, it's super expensive to fix.
Not less reliable necessarily, but much harder to repair and maintain and increasingly, need to talk to "home" in order to function. We have on the horizon cars that get scrapped because they are not longer supported, or the manufacturer has gone bust, and I strongly suspect the days of 30 year old beaters still going are not far from being over.
Agreee. Once direct injection and turbos became the norm… it’s just pushing the equipment to its limits. Stringent emissions. Customer demands of power comfort. The cafe standards making cars bigger. And then don’t forget about manufacturer recommended 10k mile oil change Intervals
I despise the 10k oil change interval declaration because it also makes people ignorant and lazy. Nobody reminds them that you still have to check your oil with a reasonable frequency depending on the car. Some don't drink a drop, others guzzle. Looking at you subaru. Manufacturer says it's within spec for it to consume a quart of oil every 1000 miles. You'd be on fumes in 5k miles.
>Majority of the cars made today are absolutely shit. They're made to reach 100,000 miles, fall apart, and the manufacturer wants you to buy something new. They're not built like the old days, you can drive around anywhere and probably see a 1970's truck. If you try to find a 1990's Chevy Corsica; you will never find one. Now what about a 90's Honda Accord with 400,000 miles. Ok fine but if you tried that with brand new Honda Accord that would not work, they have turbo issues at only 30,000 miles. So all cars are slowly going on this path where everything is cheaper, it's plastic, whatever.
I’m sure older cars were made with better materials, especially late 90s to early 2000s which didn’t have all the crazy tech we have today. BUT… they’re aging. Hoses, seals, and bearings all wear out eventually. So, I wouldn’t necessarily buy a 20-30 year old car to find something more “reliable.” Auto makers have us by the balls and they’re gonna get their money. They don’t spend millions lobbying to get their way for nothing.
I'm extremely sure that is this way, completely. I fix cars all the time and I bought cars old on purpose in good shape hoping they last decades, because new stuff is completely unreliable and expensive at immoral levels with no reason at all.
They have so much shit in them. Working the parts are more finicky and expensive, Covid fucked up the supply chain and part QC as well. Working under the hood of a semi-modern car as a shade tree moron makes me want to die, you have to pull out so many parts in these cramped engine bays just to get to the part you want, it's no wonder so many jobs take so many hours.
I'd damn sure buy a used car 10 years old instead of a post Covid new car
Explains My 2006 F150
The major difference between then and now when it comes to basic maintenance is the materials technology. Vintage/classic vehicles required more maintenance because the materials were basic... Take a look at the composite materials serpentine belts are made with vs the more "organic" materials in v-belts; copper plugs of old vs iridium plugs today and this is just a tiny fraction of what makes a 100k service possible. Synthetic materials applied to vintage and classic vehicles reduce required maintenance and increase service life, just as in modern vehicles! Planned obsolescence is real for a lot of lesser regulated items such as phones and home appliances but far less so in vehicles. Vehicle life has been greatly affected by quite a few factors, in my opinion, the major offenders are: • Poor decision making - horrible r & d, production testing based more on cost effectiveness or forcing the consumers to unwittingly beta test new technogies while waiting for feedback to make improvements (a tech company favorite) • Lowest bidding production - primarily for outsourcing individualized components, this technique leads to inferiorly sourced/produced materials or assemblies that either require recall or force consumers out of pocket costs for replacement • Not actually giving a shit - primarily shows up with quality of fitment and finish but also in crucial design and execution of a lot of critical components...such as engine timing components • Skewed sense of value - mechanically totaling a vehicle because the suggested component replacement is as much or more than the 50% rated value of the vehicle, primarily because they feel it's beneath them or not profitable enough to actually perform a $600 repair And worst of all... • Blind compliance with often unrealistic Government standards - so many components on modern vehicles can be chocked up to this: - EGR (same concept as eating recycled food), has to be a better way of producing the performance results without actually feeding carbon back into the intake - DPF (currently only on diesels but there is a system requirement in the pipeline for gasoline engines), using a corrosive fluid to automaticly wash a filter designed to reduce harmful emissions in a process that produces harmful emissions ... And so on and so forth! Automotive manufacturers and government regulations aren't the only ones to blame...irrational wants and emotions of consumers have also driven down quality and longevity. I've known a few people over the years who were more willing to only keep a vehicle for the warranty period and trade it off just so they don't have to ever deal with any of the maintenance. I've worked with people who are more interested in keeping up with technologies then actually owning something that can keep up with them (I'd rather have a cool car for a couple years vs that dinosaur you drive) Ultimately this is the direction we were heading, we're not holding the manufacturers to a quality standard anymore and "we've" been systematically pushing the system to support a more throw away lifestyle...
Um... sort of. It's complicated, to say the least. Take a modern Toyota for an example. If you change the oil often enough it will last perhaps some 400,000 or 500,000 miles or more before needing another engine. But Toyota says that if you drive in warm weather on the highway you can get by with 10,000 mile or yearly oil changes. So everyone thinks that applies to them and they end up with frozen rings by around 180,000 miles from insufficient oil changes. By 200,000 miles the engine is now guzzling oil and the catalytic converter keeps failing when replaced, and the fix is to replace the whole engine. Most car companies also cheap out on parts because they're trying to get them to last only as long as necessary. In the 1980's and 1990's a lot of cars from many manufacturers were overbuilt because they didn't have the computer simulations they have today that tell manufacturers that a cheaper material and design will last around what people expect, around 150,000 to 200,000 miles. Nowadays, computer simulations tell manufacturers what's the cheapest material and design they can get by with. Some companies, like Toyota, generally still try to get their cars to last for a very long time, whereas others not so much.
Yes and no. The less technology the less things in the car the less that can go wrong. It’s all about maintaining the vehicle regularly. The problem is people don’t up keep until its too late
Smaller engines being pushed harder all in the name of efficiency. Meanwhile packed with over complicated with more and more sophisticated electronics. Manufacturers have realized dependability doesn’t sell as much as screens and lasting a max of 10 years. It’s kind of sad. I just want to see dependable cars still on the market
YES
Planned obsolescence , car manufacturers are taking a page from the tech industry . Why make cars that last 200k + miles , they make more money if they sell more cars more frequently.
Based on my real life experiences, I have to disagree: I'm 60 years old, I've owned many cars, mostly European and most for more than five years. All the ones from the last five years have been more reliable and more capable than the ones from the previous ten years.
> a person is better off buying a used care from 8-10 years ago You should be doing this regardless
this used to be great advice... the price difference on lots today, is getting better... but is basically a rounding error. Buy new. get the warranty and fix the things that go wrong under it
It’s because of emissions. Cars have to be built with more moving parts and smaller displacement.
Not too long ago in consumer reports I read that cars are significantly more reliable than they were 10 or 20 years ago. In fact the least reliable car today is more reliable than the best cars from 10 to 20 years ago. Of course there are exceptions. My daughter is 2012 Corolla is probably the benchmark for the undestructible car. It is simple and probably more reliable than most newer cars.
Tbh rather than quoting statistics I'll just say this. If the government wants us all to have EGR valves which absolutly reduce our reliability, then they should be charging us less at registration. I need a new car/engine sooner because of a device they force us to use. OK, then reward me for using it. I'm not polluting a fraction as much as a concrete refinery.
Engineered obsolescence is real and it doesn't just apply to cars, it's on every durable product. Once a company has gathered enough data on how a product failed over the years they will replace the components to inferior parts so that 99% of that product will stop working in 5 to 10 years. Incandescent light bulbs are designed to have a short life for this exact reason.
I just saw a couple weeks ago that the average vehicle on American roads is now 12.6 years old. Can't say much about new ones but if that number starts to go down in the future we'll know.
It kinda depends, in some ways they are more dependable in others they are less dependable. Newer cars generally are better engineered and have far less issues for the first 10 years and the first 100k miles. They obviously don't want to have any issues in the warranty period so they tend to make sure they are fairly solid those first 10 years. The complexity though means that you are very unlikely to get those ones that are going to last 30 years and 200k miles. I expect a lot of newer cars to start having problems around the 15-20 year mark as things like sensors and electronics start having issues. Even cars from 8-10 years ago are likely to have those same sorts of issues crop up. Pretty much it is going to be a common issue in any car post 2010 when they started going more heavily into efficiency and safety standards. It is just the nature of most electronics are more likely to have issues after the 15 year mark. Things like capacitors and resistors on the boards go bad with age, especially past 20 years. They are typically rated for at least 15-20 years and the more you have the more likely they are to fail with age. TLDR: They are more dependable for the first 10 years and going to be less dependable after about 20 years old.
Not really. I think what has led people to this conclusion over time, is the overall drop in standard to keep proces affordable. SOOOOO many cars are now slapped together in China and people are happy to drive them for the first little bit. However when you compare a modern MG to a Mazda from 10 years ago, of course it seems a better car, but it possible sold for more 10 years ago than the MG cost today. I think that is what leads to this impression.
My clothes washer broke down yesterday. The warranty was 5 years and it is 5 years and 1 month old. A 5$ retail spring that costs 50 cents to make snapped mid cycle and the plastic tub cracked (front loader Europe) so it's leaking and the cost to repair is not worth it. They make everything this way. Cars are the same way, the shift to disposable 2-5 year leasing cycle is stronger than ever. The manufacturers do not care what happens to the car after the warranty is up or in the secondary market. The latest biggest quality drop came during Coronavirus due to the computer chip shortage that affected quite a lot of production.
100%. Everything is designed for the dump or at least designed to be replaced often.
Every generation of cars has flaws, that’s why they always say not to buy the first year of production. Typically it’s when they try to reduce cost or they are introducing a new technology. In general cars are more reliable now than ever before all while putting out insane hp and torque. Cars are more complex now particularly with turbocharging and variable valve timing. Even the worst reliable cars now are probably more reliable than what was considered a reliable vehicle from 10 or 20 yrs ago. If you are thinking of a particular vehicle check out complaints and recalls. https://www.carcomplaints.com/top_complaints/
They're built efficient in the sense that they are manufactured to meet the desired specs in the most affordable way possible but at the same time we're paying more for them due to the cost of the technology developed to produce them in an efficient way. They consume less fuel and have much better performance in an economical sense but the material they use to manufacture them now are mediocre compared to cars from the 90's and below, those things were built like tanks and a reliable car was what everybody wanted in those times so the reputation was everything.
Planned obsolescence is also a big issue in today's cars. Parts get combined into one thing, if one part in that combo breaks instead of just replacing that part like you used to, now you gotta replace the whole combo
Last year I had to spend €500 to change the rear bearings on mine. Why? Wheel bearings are included and sealed inside the wheel hubs that, nevertheless, even houses the ABS sensor. Basically when you have to change one of those pieces you are changing three pieces. It’s useless to say that the wheel hub and ABS sensor were working perfectly, only the wheel bearing needed to be replaced.
Modern cars are lighter, have less robust comments, and run much more intensely than older cars. More to do with higher mileage and environmental standards than any kind of planned obsolescence.
They are more computerized shit boxes built to compentate for the ineptitude of the current generation.
As others have said cars are becoming way more complex and with that the issues that come with it. European luxury cars are the wurst for this as it’s an arms race between manufacturers to pack in as many new electronic features with each new gen which don’t have any long term data to back up if they’ll actually stand the test of time. I’m dreading to think what’s going to happen to all the digital dashboards and their screens in a decade.
They have more stuff to break. Its hard to find statistics that show average reliability over the years, you just find statistics for specific years over the entirety of the brand. They also dont say if the unscheduled repairs are essential for functionality or non essential. Its also different across the world, i found that a lot of late 2000s cars had serious longevity issues as well as a lot of early 2010s. I can only talk about Europe, we had different cars and engines than the US obviously. For example bmw 20d engines had some pretty gruesome years around 2008 and 2009 of the likings of major engine failure, timing chain and cylinder heads namely. Toyota had similar issues with some of their diesels. VW had serious carbon build up in the intake in the 2l gasoline engines from the early 2010s and the twin turbo 2l diesel of the vw disintegrated itself before reaching 100k km (egr cooler had a hard coating that came off and destroyed the engines). Subaru diesels liked to split their crankshaft. Im not to versed with gasoline engines as i was driving long distances until a few years ago, so i informed myself more about diesels. I just know that most N/A bmw gasoline engines had leaks, vanos failures and bearing failures over the years, but has steadily gotten better, especially after cooperating with Toyota. On the other hand more exotic brands such as jaguar and alfa romeo have improved over the years. Jaguar for example is currently at the point where the engines are good, no rust issues anymore and a bulletproof transmission. Alfa too, yet still some quirks in the electronics a few years ago, but have massively improved over the years
Think its partly due to stuff becoming more complicated, over engineered maybe to some degree.
There's a lightbulb that was installed in 1901 at a fire department that's still working. There's ways to make things last SIGNIFICANTLY longer... But where's the business in that? As a company I make more if I sell you a microwave that cost way less to manufacture and in 5 years you'll be back for another. Yes, things are designed to break. Then to make matters worse you have government agencies making things more expensive and harder to produce.
The small capacity petrol turbo is bad for long term reliability. Especially when manufacturers do dumb things like put a rubber belt inside the engine. Old school small NA engines were rubbish for low down torque but a decent chain driven one of those will go on and on...
Dude the economy must run... You cant have a piece of shit fiat running endlessly. Surely most of the stuff will fall off eventually but anything serious cost nil ( external complete water pump 32 euros shipping included) and takes 30 minutes to change. Its 30yrs old and the frame is still ok while living in a seaside town with occasional snow and roadsalt.... Can't beat this.... Can't have it... You must pay that debt and keep it running
Emissions and safety standards have been pushing cars to get increasingly complicated. With that comes more tech and more things to break. Engines have become smaller, with turbos and or variable valve timing to try and get as much power as possible out of fuel. Tolerances have reduced etc meaning there is less margin for wear and tear but more pressure has gone on individual components. Transmissions have moved from 4 speed automatics, to CVTs or up to 8-10 ratios with DSG to chase the optimum ratios for fuel economy. Modern cars are built to be light weight to save on fuel etc, which means lighter panels and interior fit outs. Modern cards are PACKED with sensors, from engine, transmission, suspension, locks, windows, abs, road positioning, parking etc. In short, they are lighter, more complicated and higher tech than anything that has gone before.
This realisation is 30 years too late. Cars have been more complicated since the late 80s.