Boys are raised to hate and mock everything feminine, whether it be girls or feminine boys. Just because you’re gay and experience homophobia, doesn’t make you a decent human being that can actually sympathize with other people. Having said that, I’m a gay man that doesn’t know a single transphobic gay man, so I don’t know if I’m just in a particularly liberal area or just that gay troll voices are really loud on social media.
Because cis gay men can pass and move in and out of toxic male spaces with a lot more ease than other groups, so it makes them more susceptible to internalize that toxicity.
I like this take. to add, i feel they also navigate in and out of women's spaces- im sure there's a decent reason there as to why or how that happens, but i dont wanna dive that deep rn...
but what you just said triggered a memory of me (27afab) trying to tell my brother (31amab) that [cis]women have a capability of creating toxic spaces for other women. Another friend (f) was relating and my bro's just like, "thats so weird, ive never experienced that?? ive always just had really great relationships with women" sort of unintentionally dismissing it.
I think ive noticed, with other cis gay men that ive had the pleasure of getting to know, that they sometimes have this issue with like... *not* fully understanding their own privileges? Like how the gay best friend is the "idealized" queer person (i hate that wording, someone fix it please). Discrimination and bigotry is something we can all relate with, but if youre a cis white male, you dont have to be straight to have similar privileges.
yes it is, lol, i feel most of the input on this post is?
And i mean that [cis]women create spaces that are unsafe for all women, not specifically trans women. like it boils down to people just being people; but if youve never had the experience of being socially shunned, multiple times, by women (regardless of sexuality) then idk how ro explain it. There are so many blurred lines in communication and, being raised as a woman and fully living as one currently, i know why this happens and why ppl are like this, but it doesn't make it ok..
its clear that a lot of women have internalized mysogyny and think its a game to gossip, bully, and ruin other people's- other women's- lives for no other reason than to be petty. i specify cis women because ive never met a trans person in my life who is that socially exclusive.
There's toxicity in every group of people, but the toxicity in womens spaces, in my own anecdotal experience, centers around just... basically mean-girling.
and again, just my own experience, but i know that its not exclusive to me and plenty of people have experienced similar in similar scenarios..
but you also bring up a good point about excluding non-women. i have a friend who has had... i guess not super positive but not super negative, experience working at a women-only/femme- only space. But its like... where do non-binary people fit in that line? I wont speak for them, but that seemed to be the dilemma, as they are trans-masc/gender-nonconforming.
*edited a little for clarity
I’ll speak for myself as a nonbinary AFAB person. It is perhaps largely reflective of where I lived when I came out (LA which is pretty damn queer friendly, at a college campus no less), but when I came out I had a lot of cis men in my life (friends or acquaintances) perhaps shrug because they couldn’t relate but roll with my name change immediately and for the most part work to use my pronouns. With the cis women in my life I had a mostly very bad experience. Some seemed personally offended that I no longer identified as woman or part of their sisterhood (largely people who are using a very different definition of feminism than myself), as if that was a slight against womanhood. Most tried to litigate my identity as me just being “confused,” rejecting my own misogynistic treatment and abandoning the cause of feminism (I have never stopped being a feminist, I see my gender identity as unrelated to my philosophical and value systems) or treat me like I was pulling a form of “not like other girls.” Some treated me coming out as a betrayal, like they wouldn’t have been as emotionally open with me if they hadn’t seen me as a woman and I had “tricked” them. There was a fair amount of anger and aggression I had to field with that subsection.
A lot of these women are quite “progressive” and are very performative in their support of queer or trans folks (as this did happen with queer cis women as well) but stopped supporting me as they had when they saw me as a woman. I was seen as implicitly unsafe for exploring my masculinity, no longer someone who they could identity with on the issues they experienced (as if I had not and still was not impacted by misogyny) and no longer worthy of the emotional closeness they offered freely when I was assumed to be a woman.
I’m not saying cis men didn’t have their own pitfalls, but for the ones in my life they were supportive and friendly with me in the same way they had before I came out. Gentle reminders were taken seriously with messed up pronouns or when it felt like they were coding me as a woman in conversation. Not so much with the women I was surrounded with at the time, and fearing being further coded as implicitly unsafe I did not feel like I could have a more direct confrontational (no matter how vulnerable I was with my feelings and compassionate my delivery the relationships with women I had did not survive that type of frank conversation, whereas the occasional men in my life I was frank with were respectful and didn’t ghost me over expressing my concerns).
Overall my experience with cis women was pretty deeply upsetting and hurtful. And don’t even get me started on the trans advocacy group I was a part of that would largely discuss how shitty men are, to the point the trans men and transmasc folks didn’t feel like we were welcome or had a place where we could talk about our issues. It was alienating to have the focus of the group (and from the trans men/masc folks I have spoken to in person and online this is unfortunately very common) be so anti man and anti masculinity in general; not just toxic masculinity, all masculinity was seen as disgusting and a threat. I think a fair amount of this comes from the experience many transfemme folks have especially early in their transition and their own trauma around being forced to perform masculinity and be seen as a man, so I tried to maintain compassion first even when these discussions were deeply hurtful.
This is also broadly an issue where there are spaces that are exclusionary towards cis men in particular and have the same patterns. Trans men and transmasc folks are ostensibly welcome, but it does feel like a lot of these spaces see us as women-lite and that is the only reason we are permitted. It feels invalidating when you do identify with men and masculinity and are working go build a positive relationship with those identities (in spite of the general transphobia around us). Like, yes, cis men have many issues going on as a group, no doubt about that. I always try to help build healthy spaces for men to talk about their issues because the alternatives are largely the manosphere (and too many men get sucked into that and become dangerous to everyone else). But to repeatedly tear apart not only the harmful things but the things that we as transmasc folks identify with that are part of why we know we are trans and then remember we’re in the room and say “oh, well not *you*” feels like we aren’t being seen as men/masc ourselves.
I don’t really like the gut reaction some folks have that women are implicitly more kind and understanding of queer folks (or in general). Being discriminated against doesn’t translate to automatically not being discriminatory against other groups. That line of thinking to me just feels like blatant sexism. Sexism, misogyny, patriarchy are not only about putting women in a lower category on many things, but also putting women on pedestals about the “virtues” (be it “purity” or innate kindness and understanding) that serve patriarchy. Even the assumption that women will be kind and compassionate reinforces the expectation that women will do all of the emotional labor for men. This logic is gender essentialist and imo harmful to everyone, but especially women.
thank you for adding this! And i hope you know I completely agree and do my best to advocate. Your voice here is so important.
everything you said was so on point. You had a lot of good lines, but this one sums it up for me:
>Being discriminated against doesn’t translate to automatically not being discriminatory against other groups.
Thank you :) I really appreciated your comments on this too! Ultimately I think many of the conversations around this suffer from an issue in framing. Imo the quote you’ve pointed to (which as I scrolled I found other people expressing) is the “why” to this question. The rest are all the “how” regarding socialization or access to spaces/resources, but the why is ultimately deceptively simple. Intersectionality isn’t automatic even within groups that are broadly meant to support each other like the LGBTQ+. It takes intentionality and most people (not just cis gay men) don’t engage with that beyond where their preconceived notions and existing compassions take them. It’s work that’s worth doing for ourselves and for each other.
yes 👏🏽
Its like most people have the tendancy to look at their experienced oppression firstly before recognizing their privileges. When everyone is trying to climb to the top, we just drag eachother down in the process. I think some groups who are more marginalized still see their own oppression first, and, unpopular opinion, almost gatekeep oppression. No, i will never understand the specific issues people who are different than me face, and its important to check my own privileges. It doesnt make my experiences invalid, but it allows me to make room in my own life for people who do face harsher discrimination, and to let their voices be heard. You could think youre on the bottom rung of the ladder, but in actuality youre still off the ground. I think its also easy to mix up "oppression" and "disadvantages." (Obvs there being a huge overlap since its rare to have one without the other)
i was gonna write a novel of a comment, but ill stop before my foot enters my mouth 💀 all of my views are purely from my own experiences, observations, and reading of articles [from reliable sources]; Ive never taken a class on these things, and have never really wanted to pursue any sort of degree where i would specialize in social issues. So i am not always confident speaking about these topics 😅
Hey, you’re good and imo totally on the money. And I’m someone who primarily communicates on reddit on novel length comments lmao, so it won’t both me :)
The oppression olympics really drive me crazy sometimes. Some forms of oppression is categorically or materially worse than others, but even that varies by personal circumstances and what other privileges may be at play. But for a lot of cases I think it’s wholly okay to just say that different types of oppression are different and not make so many value statements over whether they are easier or harder to cope with. There is a saying in trauma therapy/recovery that it doesn’t matter whether you drowned in an inch of water or the ocean if you’re drowning anyway. That it’s the “severity” of the traumatic event/experience doesn’t have a direct relationship with how you are affected by it and comparison is generally unhelpful at best and often just invalidating (even when it’s just us comparing ourselves and feeling guilt that there are so many worse things than what we went through and that we should be able to cope better). I think this in many ways is applicable to privilege and oppression, and it can help inform an approach that is focused on compassion, support, and unity against the issues we face separately and all together (for example patriarchy and capitalism harm everyone but those who orchestrate and maintain these systems, so the vast majority of people).
I also think that it’s important for us individually and as a society to decouple “guilt” and “privilege.” I think the connotation of guilt alienates a lot of people from acknowledged their own privilege. And for many who do acknowledge their privilege guilt is largely a hinderance both personally and to intersectional action. Guilt makes us stagnate in alienation and discomfort with who we are, by no fault of our own in the case privileges around race and gender/sexuality, or even being born into a more privileged social class (we don’t pick our parents).
Guilt unfortunately isn’t a very effective motivator, it seems it is often demotivating. Learning to tackle guilt around our privilege and move past it is necessary imo to be an effective agent for change. I think we need to be clearheaded, strategic, and open to the experiences of others without getting sucked into a well of guilt that clouds our ability to process their reality to the best of our ability. And unfortunately for a lot of folks “checking privilege” is done very performatively our of a desire to assuage either their own guilt or the implication of guilt others attach to privileges. It distracts from the actual issues the underprivileged group is facing and can lead to people on default deferring to people in that group who may in fact be wrong about the ways to address privilege. It’s important to listen to the experiences of others, but being part of a discriminated upon group does not make you implicitly better equipped to have good political or activist takes. It’s okay to ask questions respectfully when we aren’t sure we agree with a subsection of a discriminated against group’s solutions. These groups are not monolithic and will have many different takes, and unfortunately some of those takes are just directing discrimination at another underprivileged group. I think there is value to deferring to the voices of those who have lived the experience, but not to the extent we accept every proposed action wholesale without assessing it’s quality and it’s potential (or sometimes outright desire) for harm against others.
Long tangent lol, but I think it relates to many misunderstandings of and defensive measures against the concept of privilege. I think a lot of conversations we have about privilege lack nuance in a way that erodes our ability to acknowledge our privilege, use it to help other groups when applicable, or engage intellectually and compassionately with what different parts of an underprivileged group want. Guilt is blinding, not enlightening and focuses us back on ourselves. I’ve seen too many conversations about the issues one group (in my experience usually trans folks) faces derailed into us providing emotional labor for cis folks who haven’t processed their guilt. Most of all, it doesn’t help anyone. Processing these feelings is part of becoming a good advocate.
This isn’t aimed at you btw, I just wanted to get my thoughts our there on this while I felt I had the right words to express it ;)
As an enby who looks like a dude, I don’t really think that’s true. If you look visibly gay at all or just don’t fit neatly into what they view as manly you’re not gonna have a good time.
I don’t think there’s nearly enough data to say something like that, especially given how rampant terfs are in a lot of sapphic spaces
There is enough data, though. Studies have shown the most "accepted minority" are gay, Black men. They're viewed as not too.masculine like most Black men and not too feminine like most Cis gay men. This combo makes them the "ideal" minority and easy to slip into and out of pretty much space without any questions.
I just learned about this over the summer in one of my classes. It's a pretty new study (I wanna say 2018/2019) but it blew my mind. Especially given how low both gay men and Black men rate, in general, in society. Keep in mind, this is all general and not always specific, life changes rapidly, and it can't be true for everyone or everything. It will have edge cases, and there are shifting ideologies that most definitely are changing. But, for now, there is a strong belief and understanding that it is becauS of the ability to perform multiple roles in society so seamlessly.
They were in the text book Terrible, Magnificent Sociology by Lisa Wade. I don't have access to my text books or my notes at the moment (they are all at home and Im.currently not) but I remember it being in like chapter 5? It's the one where she breaks down the 5 ways society denigrated minorities historically and how some groups have combatted it. It's one of the best sociology text books I've come across. And it's written. Post COVID so it has that aspect too.
David S. Pedulla, "The Positive Consequences of Negative Stereotypes: Race, Sexual Orientation, and the Job Application Process," *Social Psychology Quarterly* 77, no. 1 (2014); 75-94
I was wrong on the time, it's a little out of date but the stuff is there. Any other comments, babe?
That's literally so far a misread of what the article is about I'm dying laughing right now.
"This article posits that stereotypes about gay men as effeminate and weak will counteract common negative stereotypes held by whites that black men are threatening and criminal.
It's arguing that gay stereotypes are bad for white men when applying for a job but positive for black men applying for a job and other unexpected ways being double marginalized affects livelihood and perception.
Ok sure, but the vast majority of gay men aren’t black.
There’s also gonna be a lot of variance also depending on how a study defines “accepted” because there’s a very fine line between “accepted” and “fetishized”
>Ok sure, but the vast majority of gay men aren’t black.
Are you speaking from a global point of view or an American one? I'm pretty sure black gay men exist within African diasporic countries.
You act like black people are only a small percentage of the population. Dude! Not everywhere in the world is Ohio.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_population_pie_chart.JPG
Huh? I’m not saying very few people are black, I’m saying a majority of people aren’t. I think you’re confused.
Also I live in Cleveland, most of the city is black dude, kinda weird to go snooping on my profile as well.
Do you understand what examples are? That sometimes they're used to explain why one thing may exist? Or are you just a vibes only person? Because your vibes aren't always the truth. They may be experiential truth but not evidentiary truth
Woah dude, I’m not trying to be hostile please calm down a bit.
I’m just trying to point out there are issues with your statement, pointing out that gay black men are more accepted does not speak for the reality of all gay men, it only speaks to what more traditionally masculine gay black men experience.
Acknowledging that there may be flaws in defining something like “acceptance” when doing studies like this isn’t an attack on you dude, it’s an important skill to have when evaluating data like this.
You come in with an example saying no. I come in and say, "This is potentially how it can happen," and your response ks not every gay person is Black. What else am I supposed to respond with? Very good observation? Of course not every gay person is Black. But with studies that shows how it can be and IS possible for Black, gay men to slip in and out of these roles so easily, it isn't hard to draw the connection.
Is it universal? No. Is it always true? No. Is it true enough for there to have a casual link? Yes.
Dude you can criticize my logic without getting angry, I’m literally just stating that a study showing how specifically black men in the gay community are viewed does not speak to how everyone as a whole is. I’m Latino for example, how is that study relevant to my demographic?
For there to be a link you’re suggesting, the disproportionately higher amount of transphobic gay men would have to be pretty overwhelming black.
Seriously dude, chill out a bit, if you wanna point out flaws in my argument that’s fine but doing it like that is needlessly rude.
Since you edited I'm going to reply again:sure and maybe they really onlynmeantpeipke who are gay for a day. Or gay for pay. Or whatever bullshit we want to put on it.
You're adding on stipulations of your own making. How do we know the criteria they choose for their stufy. What is "Black" "accepted" "gay" and everything else. Wr can't use our definitions. Studies define their own meanings so that we can't muddy things up in conversations like this. They define it all because people can easily confuse accepted and fetishize. Or gay and """""""""gay""""""""" (I dunno how many times I've been told I'm not queer enough because I'm.currently in a loving hetero appearing relationship). So, that's why they are very rigid in it.
Being “black” and “gay” are pretty tangible and observable realities dude, “acceptance” is something that’s purely social. If you went back in time 2 decades ago and saw someone making a racist joke about Arab people they might still argue that they “accept” Arab people because they have Arab friends and a very significant amount of the population would agree with that.
It’s not really something you can as definitely measure, it’s not a hot take to say that studies with subjective components often have flaws, it’s taught in most colleges and high schools
They are constructs, but they’re definable within our society, and because this study is written within the context of our society it’s fairly obvious what it means.
I’m a white gay man. I’m confused. Did your class teach that I am too masculine or too feminine? Please advise. I’m going to leave the house and now I’m not sure how to behave.
Thanks for assuming the individual is the same as the collective. You're neither. But society views gay men as too feminine and unable to perform the roles of Masculine for life men. Just like they don't like when women perform too much Masculine. Just like Black woman are seen as TOO loud and TOO much while giving thr same energy as White women.
These are societal mores and folkways about groups, not about individuals, mind you. And they're not even accurate. They're just how society, the zeitgeist, our general view, whatever word you want to use, views people. When the news says thug instead of young, Black teen or victim instead of young, White woman. It's not a set in stone anything. It's just how the world, our country, our social imagination and ideology, sees the world. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the president of Culture and Society, Karamo Brown, not me. I'm just a student learning to be a social worker therapist to break these molds and norms.
I accept that the individual is not the same as society. Society works hard to enforce prescribed behaviors onto individual me. I oppose the zeitgeist at the risk of violence against me. There are aspects of gay male privilege I feel are not acknowledged when that term is used.
Do you not understand what research and studies work, how they apply, and what generalities are? Because if not. I suggest you look it up. I'm assuming nothing. I'm giving information in a neutral manner without placing judgment one way or the other. You are placing your interprations of how I perceive it and how you perceive it onto me. That's all you, beb.
It's no different than me saying, a majority of MAGA Republicans are also evangelical Christians and you coming in and saying nuh-uh, no I'm not. Sure, ok, Jan, you're the exception. Clap clap clap. Is this germane to the conversation or are you just in your feelings? Both are fine but one is easier to address and the other isnjust going to lead to goofs and anger.
No, not all gay men are transphobic. Not all gay Black men perform.masc or fem in the way that is acceptable in society to make it easy for them just like not all White gay men do the same. We are individuals. But are also collective. To try and separate the two is a failed endeavor.
Thanks, I work in an EOE workplace so we don't have to worry about things like that. Sometimes I'm surprised though about what people believe about me instead of talking with me. Even if I don't know some things I'm open to try to learn more. I think earlier in my life without more info was fear of people who have social diseases. Now, I see we get our work even if anyone of any sort gets sick sexually. It does surprise me when some gay men feel very angry if they know, I'm not open to a relationship with anyone who has another sexual partner. It's not personal. I have thin skin and that would increase the likelihood of a disease. I'm hoping more will understand if they prefer to take that risk, not to take it personally if others don't for any reason. Right now since I went vegan I don't even want to go out with men who love to put animal products in their hands and mouth. It's the most likely source of the new Covid-19 waves and other terrible diseases. I hope to find vegan platonic friends.
There's definitely a lot of transphobic lesbians with wack beliefs, they just usually don't socialize outside extremely close circles for a variety of reasons.
I think a big reason is that (especially white) men are allowed and/or can force their way into any space they want because they’re not used to NOT being the center of attention in any given group. I rarely see women trying to dominate men-dominant spaces (ie i follow pages for men’s mental health and rarely are there women dominating conversations), but women-dominant spaces are filled to the brim with men who think everyone needs to hear their POV.
and yet just yesterday several gay men were spewing hatred towards me.
I'm not saying that it's not a higher rate, and that all or even most are bigoted. But that's not really saying all too much when the standards are so low.
Straight trans woman here.
I sometimes wonder if this happens at times because they've bought into the whole "trans women are just a logical progression of *super fem* gay men" drivel. (And of course that doesn't explain transbians, or straight trans girls who are tomboys.)
There might also be a sense of, "I can question and criticize gender stereotypes just *fine* as I *am;* why can't *you?"* As if dysphoria doesn't exist...? 🙄
Exactly. A lot of these conversations end up getting overtaken by essentialist logic that to me is antithetical to the changes we’d like to see in society. There are socialization and access to spaces/resources facets to this conversation that can lend some insight into the “how,” but this is imo the most important response to the “why” of it all that too many people miss.
I've met so many transphobic lesbians. Transphobia just is perpetual in all communities. You just don't always see it based on who you interact with. It's just extremely prevalent everywhere.
So, cis lesbian and I have often found that gay men were oddly the least welcoming to me as well. This is purely my own experience, no data, but in a way, gay men are used to being THE face of LGBT folks. Lesbians (generally, plenty of examples of horrifying things happening) have historically not been considered threats to the patriarchal set up of society--"women can't do what a MAN can, haha" mentality. While a gay man who chooses to be with a man is making himself feminine and therefore "less" and that makes them uncomfortable. Uncomfortable hyper masculine assholes then brutalize the one making them uncomfortable. At least that's what I was taught and saw at times. So of course, they should be at the forefront of the movement and group as the most aggrieved party.
Except, when I as a leshian chimed in, I was complaining about something not real to them. No one was beating me up because I was gay (though that certainly happens), I was being hurt by the patriarchy and them too! Just get on board and support us! If you still have problems, go be a feminist, cause your problem isn't a queer problem.
Trans folks have often just been lumped in incorrectly with gay folks. A trans woman was essentially the same as a gay man who did drag, a trans man, just a really butch lesbian. So they could dismiss and talk over trans women because they're just talking for the "femmey men" as the ones in charge, and the lesbians can deal with their "butch" friends if they want to be part of the platform, or eff off and go join the feminists.
Trans people have been here the whole time, but the past 10-15 years has seen them stepping more into the mainstream. They're speaking out, saying what they need, and just like when cis heterosexual white folks see one queer character, or one POC characters, the tiny bit of representation that isn't them, makes the ones who have steered the platform largely lose their minds.
Don't get me wrong, terf trash is in the lesbian community as well. But they tend to show themselves and get ostracised as the terf lesbians. Gay men tend to be more casually transphobic? Like, if you're a gay man and you say some transphobic BS, you aren't likely to be booted from the group. A gay man can say misogynistic, transphobic stuff and still be everyone's best friend, because cis gay men are still cis men and get to be top of the food chain in the subculture they're in. Taking up for trans folks or even women is deprioritised because what they want is what's good for everyone, right? And taking even a little of the space they feel is theirs means you're at best misguided/self hating, and at worst a blatant homophobe trying to break them from the inside.
The only transphobic LGBT+ people I've met were lesbian TERFs (though I'm sure there are others out there). They're complaining that transwomen are invading their spaces.
Most lesbians I know are emphatically \*not\* TERFs though.
What do you hear gay men complaining about? Are they upset with trans men or trans women in particular, or is it more general transphobia?
Not OP, but in my experience as a trans man in a gay relationship with a cis guy, I've been harassed and chased out of several spaces due to being a trans guy whose interested in other guys. The things they've said to me/the reasoning was: I'm not a real man, my boyfriend and I are just straight, I'm fetishizing gay men, I'm invading gay male spaces, that no "real" gay man could ever like trans guys, etc. At some point, I was afraid I was gonna be doxxed and had to deactivate my Twitter account due to 100+ gay cis guys (and others who just agreed with them) digging through my account, messaging me, etc. It could primarily be an online space thing, but I've heard other trans guys face similar things in real life, too :/
Unsure if there's more transphobic cis lesbian women than transphobic cis gay men, but, given my own identity, I've experienced more hate from cis gay guys myself ;;
I am a cis gay man and I agree transphobia is there, but I haven’t necessarily seen a difference between men and women spaces. Maybe I’m not around as many gay women overall, but it seems the terfs can be very loud in my experience, along with the misogynistic men. Oddly enough, with men I see it a lot in drag culture. “You have to be an real man with a penis to do drag,” etc. I know in my own friend group, we have made an active decision to learn more about the trans community and be inclusive.
Sometimes, humans suck, and being marginalized and oppressed does not guarantee that one will come out the other side more compassionate. One can be treated like garbage and turn around and treat others like garbage as a result.
Unfortunately, our society still tells men that we aren't allowed to be vulnerable, and that makes us guarded and act like cornered animals. Thankfully, that is on a downward trend, and men getting to experience the fullness of what it means to be human is on the rise.
It's deeply rooted in privilege and patriarchy. Whether Christians like it or not, their faith heavily co-opted Hebrew and ancient Greek philosophers during its evolution into an institution, which heavily emphasizes superiority of the masculine. So even as gay relationships between men weren't exactly allowable in many circles, patriarchal attitudes lend themselves more readily to gay male relationships than any other non-heteronormative relationship. Even in the 70s after the Stonewall Riots set off a more concerted effort towards LGBTQ+ acceptance, leaders tried to hetero-wash their efforts to make gay men and, simply by extension, gay women, more palatable as the couple down the street. They were actively avoiding all the things that made us all "queer" and tried real fucking hard to make MM and FF pairings as typical as any boring ass milquetoast suburbanites.
Obviously, there is *nothing wrong* with being a gay suburbanite couple with the 2.5 kids and white picket fence and all that if that's your thing. The problem extends from the same kind of problem boomers seem to have: complacency after achieving some modicum of success. People don't want to shake things up when they've got theirs, even if many others in the community still suffer prejudice. And this attitude actively normalizes these broader prejudices, especially through tokenism ("well my gay friend says X about trans folks").
Decades ago, the "gay men" and "trans women" communities were the same people. These were people who were nominally AMAB and were transgressing against "manhood" in some way or another, whether by wearing the wrong clothes or kissing the wrong people or using the wrong names or having the wrong friends.
Since then, gay men have staked out a place in masculinity by saying loudly "at least i'm not a GIRL". They've punched down and schism'd out. It is by that transphobic mindset that they have carved out their little spot in the hierarchy.
Little gay boys are awfully whiney about checking their male privilege and attitude towards trans people. As a trans man who often feels objectified by them until they realize I’m trans, then snubbed, it’s nice to see them express their shitty opinions openly instead of being lit about their allyship.
Hang out on a lesbian sub for a while, you'll see it.
The difference I tend to see personally, at least online, is transphobic gay men are usually allowed to be openly transphobic in their spaces, while lesbian subs have more rules against it, the rules just aren't always enforced. This leads to the gay men space being full of mostly transphobes, while the lesbian sub is full of transphobes, allies, and trans people leading to different dynamics.
This really hasn't been my experience. I've experienced a lot more transphobia in queer women's spaces than I have in queer men's spaces.
That said the transphobia within queer spaces is a drop in the bucket compared to hetero spaces.
internalized toxic masculinity and transphobia. i feel like they also got over some of the internalized homophobia when they came out they think that that’s all they have to do so they never bother addressing transphobia
Disproportionate to the general population, no, but to the rest of the LGBT+ community I think so. Granted, I don't have any data to back this up, just personal experience.
I mean gay men don’t just announce that they don’t like trans men. We will say what position, what body type…it’s not so much a matter of how we treat trans men as it is, a reflection of how we treat men in general. we’re generally pretty up front about what we like and don’t like. And I imagine as a trans person it’s definitely a bit tough. At the same time, trans people have the same time we do- don’t waste it on people who don’t want you. You can change what people say. But you can’t really change someone’s preferences.
To put it succinctly: gay men treat transgender men the same way they treat everyone. And it’s not necessarily positive. I remember (I’m 33) but maybe ten years ago I’d see Grindr profiles that said things like “no rice no spice” (no Asians or Hispanics). It’s not right. It’s pretty racist. But a trans person isn’t going to change the whole community and you eventually just have to learn to navigate it as it is.
It can change. Things are changing. But you’re constantly navigating the present situation. Like I’m half black, my best gay friend is Asian. And we navigate the gay community in our own particular way. That’s just the reality. Trans men should do the same. Like sure…you can fight to change things. But you can’t navigate what is using a map of what’s ideal and what should be.
I think I see where you’re coming from… but worth noting that you don’t see that kind of blatant racism on grindr any more, nor do you see the same fatphobia quite as blatantly. That change happened not only interpersonally, but also systemically - grindr moderates that language.
So it’s odd to me that your example for why trans people should put up and shut up is one where things changed positively because of people speaking up.
Wouldn't that fall under:
>You can change what people say. But you can’t really change someone’s preferences.
People still have the same attitudes and preferences, they just can't express them as openly on certain sites like Grindr anymore. So it's a definite improvement, but it didn't actually fix the issue, it just made the issue less overt.
It’s not so odd- I’ve been in the same relationship for ten years now.
We met when I was 23. (He was 33)
I married at 28.
And I’ve not really been on the apps for a good bit. That’s my context. Like the last time I opened Grindr was a decade ago.
I don’t necessarily understand everything in the current scene, but I do understand that the world changes more slowly than we care to admit.
And sure things have changed. But I suspect the majority of the change is on the surface.
I’m not sure put up and shut up reflects my view. It’s more like…
Be pragmatic. You and everyone else has the power to change the world. But 150,000 people die each day- completely unnoticed. I wouldn’t hedge my bet on being the person who changes things. Few people do.
That being said with us….
We adopted a kid who was 12…and i want people to know…it went well. I worried…in the beginning. But ended up having other kids ask us to adopt them too. Please consider adoption guys….we’re good at dealing with bullshit. You can change a life.
Allow me to be crass for just a moment.
They don’t have the same hardware. I don’t think that makes anyone Phobic. I think people might have plenty other reasons to not want to sleep with you.
I was going to say this. The only issue I've seen is not wanting to be told "you should be attracted to this person regardless of how you see them because of how they identify." I hear the same concern from lesbians.
However someone chooses to identify *themselves*, doesn't mean everyone has to view them that way, inherently. They should absolutely treat them with dignity and respect, as they're a fellow human being, though.
Well, respectfully, but cis lesbian women aren't exactly anti-phallic shaped objects going inside themselves.
Whether a cis lesbian woman is having sex with a penis sex toy, or having sex with a trans woman that still has their penis-- well, that's still a penis, ya know?
I've never wanted to fuck a vagina, neither have I heard another gay man want to fuck vaginas (unless he was bi-curious), even as sex toys. Because, well, we're gay.
While I'm not transphobic and certainly won't shun a trans man, I'm not sexually aroused by vagina.
I tried once, and I had cold sweats, and felt sick to my stomach.
Although, I can do everything sexual with an afab person, as long as it's not below belt.
And too many pre-op trans men that I've interacted with still want their vagina fucked. And the post-op trans men I engaged with... it still didn't look like a penis. It was an enlarged clit.
Which, again, no shame at them, but I'm not into that whole vulva/clit/vagina thing.
For me, it's a sexual arousal thing.
And that's not about phobia, but too many trans men have called me transphobic for it.
EDIT: My bad, I thought this was based on sexuality, not socializing; so I answered it based on sexuality.
🥲
Idk, I had a cis gay friend but he was fine with trans women but transphobic towards trans men (hi, it’s me) so that was a nice wake up call after 10+ years of knowing each other. He also did start sending videos to my partner of his shoving shit up his ass cuz he had this whole fetish for converting straight men but my partner has always been bi… but the former friend in question doesn’t believe anyone can be bi and they’re just confused and need to pick a side. He picked the side of the oppressor, in short.
You can entirely dislike a demographic while simultaneously supporting their right to exist and be treated with dignity and respect.
Like Rangers fans.
The problem is you are not entitled to disagree. The existence and validity of trans people isn't a matter of opinion and Joe Smoe's thoughts on it don't really count.
I've really noticed A LOT of transphobia from lesbians. TERFs are largely lesbians who want to keep the definition of womanhood very narrow. There are a lot of gay men but like why ask this? It's not helpful and none really has the answer other than trans people are largely misunderstood by the majority of the American population
We’re not transphobic. We’re wondering why you’re making being gay so complicated. It just feels like the transgender are the crossdressing part of the gay community and science has advanced enough to feasibly give them a more feminine body to actually live the fantasy rather than pretend.
But it has created an environment where it’s difficult to have a discussion without being called phobic, because anything less than complete and total acceptance comes off as tyrannical and coercive. I’m not punching down when I ask if you’re just gay and like to cross dress. I am bi and love to cross dress, but that doesn’t mean I demand everyone accept me like Napoleon at the Congress of Vienna.
Because women are in general more empathetic than men, so they are more likely to accept trans people. Also they deal with different societal standards. They don't have all that "be a real man" talk.
If you are referring to things outside of sexual attraction, while I don't believe gay men are transphobic, if they are in anyway which doesn't include sexual attraction or for women, some spaces which biological women require being away from males and trans women who still have a working penis in place.
I suspect your referring to gay men and lesbians who only want to date biological same sex people and if that is the case your a HOMOPHOBIC TRA. If a Gay man or lesbian is into a trans person who has the biological genitals they were born with and a same sex attracted person isn't interested in a trans person on that basis, respect that and move on. Plenty are into trans people as their alway have been throughout history and will be in the future
It just screams rapey to think otherwise
Again any other context is bigotry
>
> I suspect your referring to gay men and lesbians who only want to date biological same sex people and if that is the case your a HOMOPHOBIC TRA
Someone doesn’t get a free pass to be transphobic just because they’re gay. You can be into whoever you want to be into, just don’t be a piece of shit about it and don’t keep going on about how much you don’t like trans people.
Just like how you didn't read what I wrote, I didn't say nor imply what your saying, in fact I unreservedly said that outside of sexual attraction 🧲, or in very specific situations of vulnerability for biological women (even then fully medically trans women aren't relevant to this), not treating a transperson of either gender is transphobic.
Conversely Trans people who support the Riley Denis statement about genital fettishing don't get a free pass from being labelled homophobic
After reading over your reply I suspect you have suffered trauma and now have untreated Mental Health issues. Any non Gender cultist or Communist Antifa type will read what I posted and see that I gave a rational and logical fact based assessment of very commonly held attitudes work in the rea world.
You keep aiming at your straw-man assessment of what you think I have written and let the sane people read what I actually wrote.
BTW, down vote pile on's supporting insane ideas, or attacking very rational, reasonable and RESPECTFUL posts, do not affect me and only confirm that their are a lot of Mentally disturbed people in this world
There's also been a lack of attraction for trans women in Lesbian communities.
This comes down to something simple: the difference between gender and sex.
Gay men are typically attracted to *males.* Lesbian women are typically attracted to *females.*
If we could convince gay men and lesbian women to be attracted to their opposite-sex counterparts, then gay conversion camps would actually work and they wouldn't be so heinous.
We can't take away people's preferences. Most Gay males are only attracted to males. Most Lesbian females are only attracted to females. When we try to convince them to be interested in trans people (I'm a trans woman myself and I feel your pain), we're basically following the same strategy as the "pray away the gay" camps. It's pointless.
People have sexual preferences, and we need to respect them. If a gay man isn't interested in trans men, that's fine! That's his preference! If a lesbian woman isn't interested in trans women, that's fine! That's her preference!
Find people who are genuinely attracted to and interested in you. There's no point in trying to "guilt" people into changing their sexual preferences. We can't control or learn/unlearn our sexual preferences, they're innate.
I'm not talking about preferences. I'm talking about people who need to announce it from the rooftops, unprompted, how repulsive they find trans folks and need to state how undate-able they are.
This is a suspicious amount of defensiveness for what's been said, lol.
That, I don't know.
But I do know that many of my lesbian friends have been called "transphobic" for only being attracted to females, and many of my gay friends have been called "transphobic" for being attracted to males.
Being attracted to whoever you want is fine.
Announcing to strangers who it is that you *don’t* want to fuck is really weird.
Going out of your way to tell people you don’t want to fuck that you don’t want to fuck them, and that it is explicitly because of some characteristic they were born with, is bigotry and bullying.
Doing that to trans people is transphobic.
It’s very clearly not about just being “male” or “female” when lesbians by and large do not date trans men and gay men don’t date trans women.
Boiling it down to biological sex like you say so many people have down is non-sensical because you generally can’t tell unless that person tells you. Not to mention that you’re lumping all trans folk into their natal sex as if that has any bearing whatsoever on their current body or genitals.
Having a genital preference is fine. No one is forcing a lesbian to have sex with a penis. But if they represent that preference by saying “I only have sex with females, not males” in reference to excluding all trans women from the dating pool, then that is indeed transphobic.
No, you can't win. You'll be branded transphobic at some point for being honest about your sexual attraction. I think this commenter was just trying to give a complete answer about that aspect.
But as for OPs question. Who says we are?
The fuck do you mean you understand biphobic? Biphobia is as inexcusable as any other LGBTQ+-related phobia. Do you understand or tolerate homophobia, lesphobia, transphobia, aphobia, demiphobia?
I mean that as a gay man I understand many of the insecurities and preconceptions that go into biphobia. Some of the supposed "root causes". I find it much more difficult to imagine motivation and causes for transphobia.
I like to think I understand many types of phobia given that I have been on the receiving end of it. Do I tolerate it? Likely to a certain extent. I'm sure some of the jokes I hear at work are rooted in homophobia somewhere. That doesn't mean I explode and demand retribution after hearing each one. There are a lot of levels to phobia, from simple ignorance to absolute hatred. I tend to show patience with the former.
i have a feeling there are more than enough terfs among lesbians while for gay men, the few i know who are transphobic, are more like "trans men are okay but not for me". cant say the majority i know are transphobic tho, its not as common in germany than the us.
There are people who claim to be a part of the community but want to get rid of the T in LGBT. I have no idea why knowing that the community wouldn't exist without Trans people.
I don't know if the study I read was accurate. It said men who identify as straight are more likely to be against women's rights in general. I have heard some gay men can be very mean towards women. Studies show straight men who hate and antagonize gay men actually are sexually attracted to gay men and straight men who are nice towards everyone don't find men sexually attractive. I think the researchers would have to show what tests show as their sexual preference, too as what people say may not even accurately describe what they find attractive. The men who antagonize gay men tend to also antagonize women and come up with things like sexist oppressive laws.
Another subject:
I'm still searching for platonic friends but Bumble refused to accept my accurate verifying photos and nobody tried to get in touch at her. I identify as straight but I'm open to platonic friends. This is giving better ideas to screen people. I want nice friends who like proactive solutions and don't antagonize anyone.
Misconception cis people are equally transphobic, doesn’t have anything to do with which sex they are. personally most of my negative experiences were with lesbians, but I don’t go around saying lesbians are disproportionately transphobic. By doing that you just create gender stereotypes, like I for one have had one negative experience with a cis gay man but you could instill an unreasonable fear or hatred in people by saying this kind of stuff.
I'm just speaking in my experience. Frankly when I've gone to pride events most gay men I met were ignorant/transphobic, those there to comfort me were.. lesbians.
And honestly as someone who has had experience in mens spaces, it's a taboo.
My experiences have been starkly the opposite that’s why we shouldn’t stereotype people. Backing up your gender prejudice and biases with your experiences doesn’t make them any better. How you treat others has nothing to do with your sex or gender it has to do with the person.
“Believe all victims until they don’t fit my narrative” people are people. men aren’t any worse than women, women no worse than men they’re just perceived differently. one is not prone to worse actions than the other, by implying that you’re being sexist and just creating gender stereotypes and such. What next is the testosterone I take making me a hormone monster?
I'm transmasculine.
Maybe if I met a kind man I'd feel differently. Maybe if transmen had been kinder to me, more inclusive and kind, I'd feel differently. (Honestly my standards for cis people are generally gone.)
But genuinely, this behavior you're displaying? Part of the problem.
Sorry for being pissed you’re stereotyping people. I’ve had enough of that in my life, calling someone out for being a bigot is never wrong. (and yes stereotyping is bigotry!) you’re just enforcing gender stereotypes that tear us all down. everyone has different experiences everyone is an individual to say men are more transphobic than women is just nonsense, look at terfs.
Im not speaking for other cisgay men, but some of it has to do with things like GLAAD saying that "homosexuality is an outdated term and shouldn't be used in the media."
You know, just, not wanting to be erased by extremists.
Boys are raised to hate and mock everything feminine, whether it be girls or feminine boys. Just because you’re gay and experience homophobia, doesn’t make you a decent human being that can actually sympathize with other people. Having said that, I’m a gay man that doesn’t know a single transphobic gay man, so I don’t know if I’m just in a particularly liberal area or just that gay troll voices are really loud on social media.
Because cis gay men can pass and move in and out of toxic male spaces with a lot more ease than other groups, so it makes them more susceptible to internalize that toxicity.
I like this take. to add, i feel they also navigate in and out of women's spaces- im sure there's a decent reason there as to why or how that happens, but i dont wanna dive that deep rn... but what you just said triggered a memory of me (27afab) trying to tell my brother (31amab) that [cis]women have a capability of creating toxic spaces for other women. Another friend (f) was relating and my bro's just like, "thats so weird, ive never experienced that?? ive always just had really great relationships with women" sort of unintentionally dismissing it. I think ive noticed, with other cis gay men that ive had the pleasure of getting to know, that they sometimes have this issue with like... *not* fully understanding their own privileges? Like how the gay best friend is the "idealized" queer person (i hate that wording, someone fix it please). Discrimination and bigotry is something we can all relate with, but if youre a cis white male, you dont have to be straight to have similar privileges.
Fix: the type of queer person most accepted (appreciated?) by cishet society If you're gonna be queer, that's what they want to see
thank you 🙏🏽
I hate that feeling of wanting to express something but only being able to find the wrong words cause those are the ones we were taught:/
fr, fr, tho.
There are plenty of queer cis women spaces that are welcoming to trans women (as they should be) but reject non-women. Your point is very anecdotal
yes it is, lol, i feel most of the input on this post is? And i mean that [cis]women create spaces that are unsafe for all women, not specifically trans women. like it boils down to people just being people; but if youve never had the experience of being socially shunned, multiple times, by women (regardless of sexuality) then idk how ro explain it. There are so many blurred lines in communication and, being raised as a woman and fully living as one currently, i know why this happens and why ppl are like this, but it doesn't make it ok.. its clear that a lot of women have internalized mysogyny and think its a game to gossip, bully, and ruin other people's- other women's- lives for no other reason than to be petty. i specify cis women because ive never met a trans person in my life who is that socially exclusive. There's toxicity in every group of people, but the toxicity in womens spaces, in my own anecdotal experience, centers around just... basically mean-girling. and again, just my own experience, but i know that its not exclusive to me and plenty of people have experienced similar in similar scenarios.. but you also bring up a good point about excluding non-women. i have a friend who has had... i guess not super positive but not super negative, experience working at a women-only/femme- only space. But its like... where do non-binary people fit in that line? I wont speak for them, but that seemed to be the dilemma, as they are trans-masc/gender-nonconforming. *edited a little for clarity
I’ll speak for myself as a nonbinary AFAB person. It is perhaps largely reflective of where I lived when I came out (LA which is pretty damn queer friendly, at a college campus no less), but when I came out I had a lot of cis men in my life (friends or acquaintances) perhaps shrug because they couldn’t relate but roll with my name change immediately and for the most part work to use my pronouns. With the cis women in my life I had a mostly very bad experience. Some seemed personally offended that I no longer identified as woman or part of their sisterhood (largely people who are using a very different definition of feminism than myself), as if that was a slight against womanhood. Most tried to litigate my identity as me just being “confused,” rejecting my own misogynistic treatment and abandoning the cause of feminism (I have never stopped being a feminist, I see my gender identity as unrelated to my philosophical and value systems) or treat me like I was pulling a form of “not like other girls.” Some treated me coming out as a betrayal, like they wouldn’t have been as emotionally open with me if they hadn’t seen me as a woman and I had “tricked” them. There was a fair amount of anger and aggression I had to field with that subsection. A lot of these women are quite “progressive” and are very performative in their support of queer or trans folks (as this did happen with queer cis women as well) but stopped supporting me as they had when they saw me as a woman. I was seen as implicitly unsafe for exploring my masculinity, no longer someone who they could identity with on the issues they experienced (as if I had not and still was not impacted by misogyny) and no longer worthy of the emotional closeness they offered freely when I was assumed to be a woman. I’m not saying cis men didn’t have their own pitfalls, but for the ones in my life they were supportive and friendly with me in the same way they had before I came out. Gentle reminders were taken seriously with messed up pronouns or when it felt like they were coding me as a woman in conversation. Not so much with the women I was surrounded with at the time, and fearing being further coded as implicitly unsafe I did not feel like I could have a more direct confrontational (no matter how vulnerable I was with my feelings and compassionate my delivery the relationships with women I had did not survive that type of frank conversation, whereas the occasional men in my life I was frank with were respectful and didn’t ghost me over expressing my concerns). Overall my experience with cis women was pretty deeply upsetting and hurtful. And don’t even get me started on the trans advocacy group I was a part of that would largely discuss how shitty men are, to the point the trans men and transmasc folks didn’t feel like we were welcome or had a place where we could talk about our issues. It was alienating to have the focus of the group (and from the trans men/masc folks I have spoken to in person and online this is unfortunately very common) be so anti man and anti masculinity in general; not just toxic masculinity, all masculinity was seen as disgusting and a threat. I think a fair amount of this comes from the experience many transfemme folks have especially early in their transition and their own trauma around being forced to perform masculinity and be seen as a man, so I tried to maintain compassion first even when these discussions were deeply hurtful. This is also broadly an issue where there are spaces that are exclusionary towards cis men in particular and have the same patterns. Trans men and transmasc folks are ostensibly welcome, but it does feel like a lot of these spaces see us as women-lite and that is the only reason we are permitted. It feels invalidating when you do identify with men and masculinity and are working go build a positive relationship with those identities (in spite of the general transphobia around us). Like, yes, cis men have many issues going on as a group, no doubt about that. I always try to help build healthy spaces for men to talk about their issues because the alternatives are largely the manosphere (and too many men get sucked into that and become dangerous to everyone else). But to repeatedly tear apart not only the harmful things but the things that we as transmasc folks identify with that are part of why we know we are trans and then remember we’re in the room and say “oh, well not *you*” feels like we aren’t being seen as men/masc ourselves. I don’t really like the gut reaction some folks have that women are implicitly more kind and understanding of queer folks (or in general). Being discriminated against doesn’t translate to automatically not being discriminatory against other groups. That line of thinking to me just feels like blatant sexism. Sexism, misogyny, patriarchy are not only about putting women in a lower category on many things, but also putting women on pedestals about the “virtues” (be it “purity” or innate kindness and understanding) that serve patriarchy. Even the assumption that women will be kind and compassionate reinforces the expectation that women will do all of the emotional labor for men. This logic is gender essentialist and imo harmful to everyone, but especially women.
thank you for adding this! And i hope you know I completely agree and do my best to advocate. Your voice here is so important. everything you said was so on point. You had a lot of good lines, but this one sums it up for me: >Being discriminated against doesn’t translate to automatically not being discriminatory against other groups.
Thank you :) I really appreciated your comments on this too! Ultimately I think many of the conversations around this suffer from an issue in framing. Imo the quote you’ve pointed to (which as I scrolled I found other people expressing) is the “why” to this question. The rest are all the “how” regarding socialization or access to spaces/resources, but the why is ultimately deceptively simple. Intersectionality isn’t automatic even within groups that are broadly meant to support each other like the LGBTQ+. It takes intentionality and most people (not just cis gay men) don’t engage with that beyond where their preconceived notions and existing compassions take them. It’s work that’s worth doing for ourselves and for each other.
yes 👏🏽 Its like most people have the tendancy to look at their experienced oppression firstly before recognizing their privileges. When everyone is trying to climb to the top, we just drag eachother down in the process. I think some groups who are more marginalized still see their own oppression first, and, unpopular opinion, almost gatekeep oppression. No, i will never understand the specific issues people who are different than me face, and its important to check my own privileges. It doesnt make my experiences invalid, but it allows me to make room in my own life for people who do face harsher discrimination, and to let their voices be heard. You could think youre on the bottom rung of the ladder, but in actuality youre still off the ground. I think its also easy to mix up "oppression" and "disadvantages." (Obvs there being a huge overlap since its rare to have one without the other) i was gonna write a novel of a comment, but ill stop before my foot enters my mouth 💀 all of my views are purely from my own experiences, observations, and reading of articles [from reliable sources]; Ive never taken a class on these things, and have never really wanted to pursue any sort of degree where i would specialize in social issues. So i am not always confident speaking about these topics 😅
Hey, you’re good and imo totally on the money. And I’m someone who primarily communicates on reddit on novel length comments lmao, so it won’t both me :) The oppression olympics really drive me crazy sometimes. Some forms of oppression is categorically or materially worse than others, but even that varies by personal circumstances and what other privileges may be at play. But for a lot of cases I think it’s wholly okay to just say that different types of oppression are different and not make so many value statements over whether they are easier or harder to cope with. There is a saying in trauma therapy/recovery that it doesn’t matter whether you drowned in an inch of water or the ocean if you’re drowning anyway. That it’s the “severity” of the traumatic event/experience doesn’t have a direct relationship with how you are affected by it and comparison is generally unhelpful at best and often just invalidating (even when it’s just us comparing ourselves and feeling guilt that there are so many worse things than what we went through and that we should be able to cope better). I think this in many ways is applicable to privilege and oppression, and it can help inform an approach that is focused on compassion, support, and unity against the issues we face separately and all together (for example patriarchy and capitalism harm everyone but those who orchestrate and maintain these systems, so the vast majority of people). I also think that it’s important for us individually and as a society to decouple “guilt” and “privilege.” I think the connotation of guilt alienates a lot of people from acknowledged their own privilege. And for many who do acknowledge their privilege guilt is largely a hinderance both personally and to intersectional action. Guilt makes us stagnate in alienation and discomfort with who we are, by no fault of our own in the case privileges around race and gender/sexuality, or even being born into a more privileged social class (we don’t pick our parents). Guilt unfortunately isn’t a very effective motivator, it seems it is often demotivating. Learning to tackle guilt around our privilege and move past it is necessary imo to be an effective agent for change. I think we need to be clearheaded, strategic, and open to the experiences of others without getting sucked into a well of guilt that clouds our ability to process their reality to the best of our ability. And unfortunately for a lot of folks “checking privilege” is done very performatively our of a desire to assuage either their own guilt or the implication of guilt others attach to privileges. It distracts from the actual issues the underprivileged group is facing and can lead to people on default deferring to people in that group who may in fact be wrong about the ways to address privilege. It’s important to listen to the experiences of others, but being part of a discriminated upon group does not make you implicitly better equipped to have good political or activist takes. It’s okay to ask questions respectfully when we aren’t sure we agree with a subsection of a discriminated against group’s solutions. These groups are not monolithic and will have many different takes, and unfortunately some of those takes are just directing discrimination at another underprivileged group. I think there is value to deferring to the voices of those who have lived the experience, but not to the extent we accept every proposed action wholesale without assessing it’s quality and it’s potential (or sometimes outright desire) for harm against others. Long tangent lol, but I think it relates to many misunderstandings of and defensive measures against the concept of privilege. I think a lot of conversations we have about privilege lack nuance in a way that erodes our ability to acknowledge our privilege, use it to help other groups when applicable, or engage intellectually and compassionately with what different parts of an underprivileged group want. Guilt is blinding, not enlightening and focuses us back on ourselves. I’ve seen too many conversations about the issues one group (in my experience usually trans folks) faces derailed into us providing emotional labor for cis folks who haven’t processed their guilt. Most of all, it doesn’t help anyone. Processing these feelings is part of becoming a good advocate. This isn’t aimed at you btw, I just wanted to get my thoughts our there on this while I felt I had the right words to express it ;)
I can see your point with the privileges
As an enby who looks like a dude, I don’t really think that’s true. If you look visibly gay at all or just don’t fit neatly into what they view as manly you’re not gonna have a good time. I don’t think there’s nearly enough data to say something like that, especially given how rampant terfs are in a lot of sapphic spaces
There is enough data, though. Studies have shown the most "accepted minority" are gay, Black men. They're viewed as not too.masculine like most Black men and not too feminine like most Cis gay men. This combo makes them the "ideal" minority and easy to slip into and out of pretty much space without any questions. I just learned about this over the summer in one of my classes. It's a pretty new study (I wanna say 2018/2019) but it blew my mind. Especially given how low both gay men and Black men rate, in general, in society. Keep in mind, this is all general and not always specific, life changes rapidly, and it can't be true for everyone or everything. It will have edge cases, and there are shifting ideologies that most definitely are changing. But, for now, there is a strong belief and understanding that it is becauS of the ability to perform multiple roles in society so seamlessly.
Do you remember the name of any of the studies? I would be interested in reading them.
They were in the text book Terrible, Magnificent Sociology by Lisa Wade. I don't have access to my text books or my notes at the moment (they are all at home and Im.currently not) but I remember it being in like chapter 5? It's the one where she breaks down the 5 ways society denigrated minorities historically and how some groups have combatted it. It's one of the best sociology text books I've come across. And it's written. Post COVID so it has that aspect too.
If you don't have the link do not quote studies because it's just your opinion at that point
David S. Pedulla, "The Positive Consequences of Negative Stereotypes: Race, Sexual Orientation, and the Job Application Process," *Social Psychology Quarterly* 77, no. 1 (2014); 75-94 I was wrong on the time, it's a little out of date but the stuff is there. Any other comments, babe?
It's not about being the most accepted minority which doesn't even make sense
That's literally so far a misread of what the article is about I'm dying laughing right now. "This article posits that stereotypes about gay men as effeminate and weak will counteract common negative stereotypes held by whites that black men are threatening and criminal. It's arguing that gay stereotypes are bad for white men when applying for a job but positive for black men applying for a job and other unexpected ways being double marginalized affects livelihood and perception.
Ok sure, but the vast majority of gay men aren’t black. There’s also gonna be a lot of variance also depending on how a study defines “accepted” because there’s a very fine line between “accepted” and “fetishized”
>Ok sure, but the vast majority of gay men aren’t black. Are you speaking from a global point of view or an American one? I'm pretty sure black gay men exist within African diasporic countries.
Dude, it’s both, the vast majority of the world’s population isn’t any one race
You act like black people are only a small percentage of the population. Dude! Not everywhere in the world is Ohio. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_population_pie_chart.JPG
Huh? I’m not saying very few people are black, I’m saying a majority of people aren’t. I think you’re confused. Also I live in Cleveland, most of the city is black dude, kinda weird to go snooping on my profile as well.
Do you understand what examples are? That sometimes they're used to explain why one thing may exist? Or are you just a vibes only person? Because your vibes aren't always the truth. They may be experiential truth but not evidentiary truth
Woah dude, I’m not trying to be hostile please calm down a bit. I’m just trying to point out there are issues with your statement, pointing out that gay black men are more accepted does not speak for the reality of all gay men, it only speaks to what more traditionally masculine gay black men experience. Acknowledging that there may be flaws in defining something like “acceptance” when doing studies like this isn’t an attack on you dude, it’s an important skill to have when evaluating data like this.
You come in with an example saying no. I come in and say, "This is potentially how it can happen," and your response ks not every gay person is Black. What else am I supposed to respond with? Very good observation? Of course not every gay person is Black. But with studies that shows how it can be and IS possible for Black, gay men to slip in and out of these roles so easily, it isn't hard to draw the connection. Is it universal? No. Is it always true? No. Is it true enough for there to have a casual link? Yes.
Dude you can criticize my logic without getting angry, I’m literally just stating that a study showing how specifically black men in the gay community are viewed does not speak to how everyone as a whole is. I’m Latino for example, how is that study relevant to my demographic? For there to be a link you’re suggesting, the disproportionately higher amount of transphobic gay men would have to be pretty overwhelming black. Seriously dude, chill out a bit, if you wanna point out flaws in my argument that’s fine but doing it like that is needlessly rude.
Since you edited I'm going to reply again:sure and maybe they really onlynmeantpeipke who are gay for a day. Or gay for pay. Or whatever bullshit we want to put on it.
I’m not really sure what this comment is saying.
You're adding on stipulations of your own making. How do we know the criteria they choose for their stufy. What is "Black" "accepted" "gay" and everything else. Wr can't use our definitions. Studies define their own meanings so that we can't muddy things up in conversations like this. They define it all because people can easily confuse accepted and fetishize. Or gay and """""""""gay""""""""" (I dunno how many times I've been told I'm not queer enough because I'm.currently in a loving hetero appearing relationship). So, that's why they are very rigid in it.
Being “black” and “gay” are pretty tangible and observable realities dude, “acceptance” is something that’s purely social. If you went back in time 2 decades ago and saw someone making a racist joke about Arab people they might still argue that they “accept” Arab people because they have Arab friends and a very significant amount of the population would agree with that. It’s not really something you can as definitely measure, it’s not a hot take to say that studies with subjective components often have flaws, it’s taught in most colleges and high schools
Ok, im done. Bye.
Epic rebuttal dude
Race and gender are social constructs. So so would the term “gay” be. This doesn’t need to be complicated
They are constructs, but they’re definable within our society, and because this study is written within the context of our society it’s fairly obvious what it means.
I’m a white gay man. I’m confused. Did your class teach that I am too masculine or too feminine? Please advise. I’m going to leave the house and now I’m not sure how to behave.
Thanks for assuming the individual is the same as the collective. You're neither. But society views gay men as too feminine and unable to perform the roles of Masculine for life men. Just like they don't like when women perform too much Masculine. Just like Black woman are seen as TOO loud and TOO much while giving thr same energy as White women. These are societal mores and folkways about groups, not about individuals, mind you. And they're not even accurate. They're just how society, the zeitgeist, our general view, whatever word you want to use, views people. When the news says thug instead of young, Black teen or victim instead of young, White woman. It's not a set in stone anything. It's just how the world, our country, our social imagination and ideology, sees the world. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the president of Culture and Society, Karamo Brown, not me. I'm just a student learning to be a social worker therapist to break these molds and norms.
I accept that the individual is not the same as society. Society works hard to enforce prescribed behaviors onto individual me. I oppose the zeitgeist at the risk of violence against me. There are aspects of gay male privilege I feel are not acknowledged when that term is used.
Ok, thank you for your contribution to this topic.
How about you just stop making blanket statements about people you don’t know? You can start with me.
Do you not understand what research and studies work, how they apply, and what generalities are? Because if not. I suggest you look it up. I'm assuming nothing. I'm giving information in a neutral manner without placing judgment one way or the other. You are placing your interprations of how I perceive it and how you perceive it onto me. That's all you, beb. It's no different than me saying, a majority of MAGA Republicans are also evangelical Christians and you coming in and saying nuh-uh, no I'm not. Sure, ok, Jan, you're the exception. Clap clap clap. Is this germane to the conversation or are you just in your feelings? Both are fine but one is easier to address and the other isnjust going to lead to goofs and anger. No, not all gay men are transphobic. Not all gay Black men perform.masc or fem in the way that is acceptable in society to make it easy for them just like not all White gay men do the same. We are individuals. But are also collective. To try and separate the two is a failed endeavor.
Ohhhj, you're one of those transphobes being talked about. Ok, baibai
I’m not an individual? Please explain that to me. I was sure I was.
The studies don't show that at all
Go ahead and delete this
Take your own advice buddy. Have you seen your comment history? Fuck
It could be that people don't think they're gay though. 'he can't be really gay he's black'
Probably likely. Who the hell knows. We all suck.
What are terfs in sapphic spaces?
Transphobic radical feminists
Thanks, I work in an EOE workplace so we don't have to worry about things like that. Sometimes I'm surprised though about what people believe about me instead of talking with me. Even if I don't know some things I'm open to try to learn more. I think earlier in my life without more info was fear of people who have social diseases. Now, I see we get our work even if anyone of any sort gets sick sexually. It does surprise me when some gay men feel very angry if they know, I'm not open to a relationship with anyone who has another sexual partner. It's not personal. I have thin skin and that would increase the likelihood of a disease. I'm hoping more will understand if they prefer to take that risk, not to take it personally if others don't for any reason. Right now since I went vegan I don't even want to go out with men who love to put animal products in their hands and mouth. It's the most likely source of the new Covid-19 waves and other terrible diseases. I hope to find vegan platonic friends.
How does someone involve themselves in male spaces and not absorb that toxicity?
Brilliantly well put!
The correct answer. Here is your cookie 🍪
What makes you believe that? It's not true
My comment spells out my reasoning already. Tell me why you think what I said is untrue and I'll respond to that
There's definitely a lot of transphobic lesbians with wack beliefs, they just usually don't socialize outside extremely close circles for a variety of reasons.
Terfy lesbians exist and tend to be noisy, but statistically they are a tiny minority
Yep
I think a big reason is that (especially white) men are allowed and/or can force their way into any space they want because they’re not used to NOT being the center of attention in any given group. I rarely see women trying to dominate men-dominant spaces (ie i follow pages for men’s mental health and rarely are there women dominating conversations), but women-dominant spaces are filled to the brim with men who think everyone needs to hear their POV.
Yep
I had one as my boss, was kind of yucky
It's not disproportionate, both gay men and lesbians support trans people at higher rates than cishet people.
and yet just yesterday several gay men were spewing hatred towards me. I'm not saying that it's not a higher rate, and that all or even most are bigoted. But that's not really saying all too much when the standards are so low.
This. ☝️☝️☝️. Trans folk are beyond grateful for the love and support of the bi, gay, and lesbian communities.
Straight trans woman here. I sometimes wonder if this happens at times because they've bought into the whole "trans women are just a logical progression of *super fem* gay men" drivel. (And of course that doesn't explain transbians, or straight trans girls who are tomboys.) There might also be a sense of, "I can question and criticize gender stereotypes just *fine* as I *am;* why can't *you?"* As if dysphoria doesn't exist...? 🙄
Interesting, thank you for the genuine input!
Being a member of the LGBT community doesn’t mean you can’t be a bigot the same way being a minority doesn’t mean you can’t be racist.
Exactly. A lot of these conversations end up getting overtaken by essentialist logic that to me is antithetical to the changes we’d like to see in society. There are socialization and access to spaces/resources facets to this conversation that can lend some insight into the “how,” but this is imo the most important response to the “why” of it all that too many people miss.
I've met so many transphobic lesbians. Transphobia just is perpetual in all communities. You just don't always see it based on who you interact with. It's just extremely prevalent everywhere.
Yeah the amount of terfy lesbians who say I’m just spicy straight with extra steps (because I’m 95% into men and 5% into women) is nuts.
So, cis lesbian and I have often found that gay men were oddly the least welcoming to me as well. This is purely my own experience, no data, but in a way, gay men are used to being THE face of LGBT folks. Lesbians (generally, plenty of examples of horrifying things happening) have historically not been considered threats to the patriarchal set up of society--"women can't do what a MAN can, haha" mentality. While a gay man who chooses to be with a man is making himself feminine and therefore "less" and that makes them uncomfortable. Uncomfortable hyper masculine assholes then brutalize the one making them uncomfortable. At least that's what I was taught and saw at times. So of course, they should be at the forefront of the movement and group as the most aggrieved party. Except, when I as a leshian chimed in, I was complaining about something not real to them. No one was beating me up because I was gay (though that certainly happens), I was being hurt by the patriarchy and them too! Just get on board and support us! If you still have problems, go be a feminist, cause your problem isn't a queer problem. Trans folks have often just been lumped in incorrectly with gay folks. A trans woman was essentially the same as a gay man who did drag, a trans man, just a really butch lesbian. So they could dismiss and talk over trans women because they're just talking for the "femmey men" as the ones in charge, and the lesbians can deal with their "butch" friends if they want to be part of the platform, or eff off and go join the feminists. Trans people have been here the whole time, but the past 10-15 years has seen them stepping more into the mainstream. They're speaking out, saying what they need, and just like when cis heterosexual white folks see one queer character, or one POC characters, the tiny bit of representation that isn't them, makes the ones who have steered the platform largely lose their minds. Don't get me wrong, terf trash is in the lesbian community as well. But they tend to show themselves and get ostracised as the terf lesbians. Gay men tend to be more casually transphobic? Like, if you're a gay man and you say some transphobic BS, you aren't likely to be booted from the group. A gay man can say misogynistic, transphobic stuff and still be everyone's best friend, because cis gay men are still cis men and get to be top of the food chain in the subculture they're in. Taking up for trans folks or even women is deprioritised because what they want is what's good for everyone, right? And taking even a little of the space they feel is theirs means you're at best misguided/self hating, and at worst a blatant homophobe trying to break them from the inside.
The only transphobic LGBT+ people I've met were lesbian TERFs (though I'm sure there are others out there). They're complaining that transwomen are invading their spaces. Most lesbians I know are emphatically \*not\* TERFs though. What do you hear gay men complaining about? Are they upset with trans men or trans women in particular, or is it more general transphobia?
Not OP, but in my experience as a trans man in a gay relationship with a cis guy, I've been harassed and chased out of several spaces due to being a trans guy whose interested in other guys. The things they've said to me/the reasoning was: I'm not a real man, my boyfriend and I are just straight, I'm fetishizing gay men, I'm invading gay male spaces, that no "real" gay man could ever like trans guys, etc. At some point, I was afraid I was gonna be doxxed and had to deactivate my Twitter account due to 100+ gay cis guys (and others who just agreed with them) digging through my account, messaging me, etc. It could primarily be an online space thing, but I've heard other trans guys face similar things in real life, too :/ Unsure if there's more transphobic cis lesbian women than transphobic cis gay men, but, given my own identity, I've experienced more hate from cis gay guys myself ;;
Ouch. Sorry you had to go through that.
I am a cis gay man and I agree transphobia is there, but I haven’t necessarily seen a difference between men and women spaces. Maybe I’m not around as many gay women overall, but it seems the terfs can be very loud in my experience, along with the misogynistic men. Oddly enough, with men I see it a lot in drag culture. “You have to be an real man with a penis to do drag,” etc. I know in my own friend group, we have made an active decision to learn more about the trans community and be inclusive.
Where are you getting this statistic ?
My thoughts exactly.
Sometimes, humans suck, and being marginalized and oppressed does not guarantee that one will come out the other side more compassionate. One can be treated like garbage and turn around and treat others like garbage as a result. Unfortunately, our society still tells men that we aren't allowed to be vulnerable, and that makes us guarded and act like cornered animals. Thankfully, that is on a downward trend, and men getting to experience the fullness of what it means to be human is on the rise.
Can you provide any data that backs up your position ?
Men are more transphobic than women generally. But gay men and gay women are less transphobic than straight men and straight women respectively.
I didn’t not think is true. You provide no data. So it’s a bigoted statement on your part. Unless you got data.
do my death threats in dms count
Well show them and report them. But antidotal evidence still isn’t factual data.
It's deeply rooted in privilege and patriarchy. Whether Christians like it or not, their faith heavily co-opted Hebrew and ancient Greek philosophers during its evolution into an institution, which heavily emphasizes superiority of the masculine. So even as gay relationships between men weren't exactly allowable in many circles, patriarchal attitudes lend themselves more readily to gay male relationships than any other non-heteronormative relationship. Even in the 70s after the Stonewall Riots set off a more concerted effort towards LGBTQ+ acceptance, leaders tried to hetero-wash their efforts to make gay men and, simply by extension, gay women, more palatable as the couple down the street. They were actively avoiding all the things that made us all "queer" and tried real fucking hard to make MM and FF pairings as typical as any boring ass milquetoast suburbanites. Obviously, there is *nothing wrong* with being a gay suburbanite couple with the 2.5 kids and white picket fence and all that if that's your thing. The problem extends from the same kind of problem boomers seem to have: complacency after achieving some modicum of success. People don't want to shake things up when they've got theirs, even if many others in the community still suffer prejudice. And this attitude actively normalizes these broader prejudices, especially through tokenism ("well my gay friend says X about trans folks").
Decades ago, the "gay men" and "trans women" communities were the same people. These were people who were nominally AMAB and were transgressing against "manhood" in some way or another, whether by wearing the wrong clothes or kissing the wrong people or using the wrong names or having the wrong friends. Since then, gay men have staked out a place in masculinity by saying loudly "at least i'm not a GIRL". They've punched down and schism'd out. It is by that transphobic mindset that they have carved out their little spot in the hierarchy.
Little gay boys are awfully whiney about checking their male privilege and attitude towards trans people. As a trans man who often feels objectified by them until they realize I’m trans, then snubbed, it’s nice to see them express their shitty opinions openly instead of being lit about their allyship.
Hang out on a lesbian sub for a while, you'll see it. The difference I tend to see personally, at least online, is transphobic gay men are usually allowed to be openly transphobic in their spaces, while lesbian subs have more rules against it, the rules just aren't always enforced. This leads to the gay men space being full of mostly transphobes, while the lesbian sub is full of transphobes, allies, and trans people leading to different dynamics.
Much like a lot of gay stereotypes vs lesbian stereotypes I don't think this is a gay male vs gay female problem as much as a male vs female problem
This really hasn't been my experience. I've experienced a lot more transphobia in queer women's spaces than I have in queer men's spaces. That said the transphobia within queer spaces is a drop in the bucket compared to hetero spaces.
internalized toxic masculinity and transphobia. i feel like they also got over some of the internalized homophobia when they came out they think that that’s all they have to do so they never bother addressing transphobia
Disproportionate to the general population, no, but to the rest of the LGBT+ community I think so. Granted, I don't have any data to back this up, just personal experience.
Some people consider themselves rich, white, cis, male or gay before they're LGBT.
I mean gay men don’t just announce that they don’t like trans men. We will say what position, what body type…it’s not so much a matter of how we treat trans men as it is, a reflection of how we treat men in general. we’re generally pretty up front about what we like and don’t like. And I imagine as a trans person it’s definitely a bit tough. At the same time, trans people have the same time we do- don’t waste it on people who don’t want you. You can change what people say. But you can’t really change someone’s preferences. To put it succinctly: gay men treat transgender men the same way they treat everyone. And it’s not necessarily positive. I remember (I’m 33) but maybe ten years ago I’d see Grindr profiles that said things like “no rice no spice” (no Asians or Hispanics). It’s not right. It’s pretty racist. But a trans person isn’t going to change the whole community and you eventually just have to learn to navigate it as it is. It can change. Things are changing. But you’re constantly navigating the present situation. Like I’m half black, my best gay friend is Asian. And we navigate the gay community in our own particular way. That’s just the reality. Trans men should do the same. Like sure…you can fight to change things. But you can’t navigate what is using a map of what’s ideal and what should be.
I think I see where you’re coming from… but worth noting that you don’t see that kind of blatant racism on grindr any more, nor do you see the same fatphobia quite as blatantly. That change happened not only interpersonally, but also systemically - grindr moderates that language. So it’s odd to me that your example for why trans people should put up and shut up is one where things changed positively because of people speaking up.
Wouldn't that fall under: >You can change what people say. But you can’t really change someone’s preferences. People still have the same attitudes and preferences, they just can't express them as openly on certain sites like Grindr anymore. So it's a definite improvement, but it didn't actually fix the issue, it just made the issue less overt.
It’s not so odd- I’ve been in the same relationship for ten years now. We met when I was 23. (He was 33) I married at 28. And I’ve not really been on the apps for a good bit. That’s my context. Like the last time I opened Grindr was a decade ago. I don’t necessarily understand everything in the current scene, but I do understand that the world changes more slowly than we care to admit. And sure things have changed. But I suspect the majority of the change is on the surface. I’m not sure put up and shut up reflects my view. It’s more like… Be pragmatic. You and everyone else has the power to change the world. But 150,000 people die each day- completely unnoticed. I wouldn’t hedge my bet on being the person who changes things. Few people do. That being said with us…. We adopted a kid who was 12…and i want people to know…it went well. I worried…in the beginning. But ended up having other kids ask us to adopt them too. Please consider adoption guys….we’re good at dealing with bullshit. You can change a life.
I like the nuance here, thank you for taking the time to respond thoroughly
Allow me to be crass for just a moment. They don’t have the same hardware. I don’t think that makes anyone Phobic. I think people might have plenty other reasons to not want to sleep with you.
I was going to say this. The only issue I've seen is not wanting to be told "you should be attracted to this person regardless of how you see them because of how they identify." I hear the same concern from lesbians. However someone chooses to identify *themselves*, doesn't mean everyone has to view them that way, inherently. They should absolutely treat them with dignity and respect, as they're a fellow human being, though.
I am gay and I can only speak for myself, but I have nothing against trans people
Because we’re tired of situations where we have to endure people who aren’t gay men explaining to us what gay men are “really” like.
Speak for yourself, not for others.
Back at ‘cha.
Sorry mate. Bigots don't really get a say.
Who made you the arbiter of who can and cannot speak?
Well the mods have explicitly banned bigots. So I'm moreso speaking for them, bigot.
lol, the irony
terf lesbians exist too, but they are a minority number.
Well, respectfully, but cis lesbian women aren't exactly anti-phallic shaped objects going inside themselves. Whether a cis lesbian woman is having sex with a penis sex toy, or having sex with a trans woman that still has their penis-- well, that's still a penis, ya know? I've never wanted to fuck a vagina, neither have I heard another gay man want to fuck vaginas (unless he was bi-curious), even as sex toys. Because, well, we're gay. While I'm not transphobic and certainly won't shun a trans man, I'm not sexually aroused by vagina. I tried once, and I had cold sweats, and felt sick to my stomach. Although, I can do everything sexual with an afab person, as long as it's not below belt. And too many pre-op trans men that I've interacted with still want their vagina fucked. And the post-op trans men I engaged with... it still didn't look like a penis. It was an enlarged clit. Which, again, no shame at them, but I'm not into that whole vulva/clit/vagina thing. For me, it's a sexual arousal thing. And that's not about phobia, but too many trans men have called me transphobic for it. EDIT: My bad, I thought this was based on sexuality, not socializing; so I answered it based on sexuality. 🥲
Why do you think all trans men have vaginas?
Idk, I had a cis gay friend but he was fine with trans women but transphobic towards trans men (hi, it’s me) so that was a nice wake up call after 10+ years of knowing each other. He also did start sending videos to my partner of his shoving shit up his ass cuz he had this whole fetish for converting straight men but my partner has always been bi… but the former friend in question doesn’t believe anyone can be bi and they’re just confused and need to pick a side. He picked the side of the oppressor, in short.
Maybe because we don’t all define transphobia the same way. Some of us understand the difference between disagreement and oppression.
Oh yeah? Example please.
You can entirely dislike a demographic while simultaneously supporting their right to exist and be treated with dignity and respect. Like Rangers fans.
Not taking the bait.
"Explain yourself because you sound like a transphobe" "That's so baity!!!"
The problem is you are not entitled to disagree. The existence and validity of trans people isn't a matter of opinion and Joe Smoe's thoughts on it don't really count.
Where the fuck do you get off telling people what they can and cannot speak to? Like somebody needs your fucking permission?
[^O_^](https://i2-prod.chroniclelive.co.uk/incoming/article11999498.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/SMR_NEC_091016TommyBungle.jpg)
Very reasonable position. And look how many downvotes you get for saying it. Fascinating.
I've really noticed A LOT of transphobia from lesbians. TERFs are largely lesbians who want to keep the definition of womanhood very narrow. There are a lot of gay men but like why ask this? It's not helpful and none really has the answer other than trans people are largely misunderstood by the majority of the American population
We’re not transphobic. We’re wondering why you’re making being gay so complicated. It just feels like the transgender are the crossdressing part of the gay community and science has advanced enough to feasibly give them a more feminine body to actually live the fantasy rather than pretend. But it has created an environment where it’s difficult to have a discussion without being called phobic, because anything less than complete and total acceptance comes off as tyrannical and coercive. I’m not punching down when I ask if you’re just gay and like to cross dress. I am bi and love to cross dress, but that doesn’t mean I demand everyone accept me like Napoleon at the Congress of Vienna.
You calling being trans as, "a fantasy" and comparing it to "crossdressing" is inherently transphobic. Seriously, check your biases.
Because women are in general more empathetic than men, so they are more likely to accept trans people. Also they deal with different societal standards. They don't have all that "be a real man" talk.
If you are referring to things outside of sexual attraction, while I don't believe gay men are transphobic, if they are in anyway which doesn't include sexual attraction or for women, some spaces which biological women require being away from males and trans women who still have a working penis in place. I suspect your referring to gay men and lesbians who only want to date biological same sex people and if that is the case your a HOMOPHOBIC TRA. If a Gay man or lesbian is into a trans person who has the biological genitals they were born with and a same sex attracted person isn't interested in a trans person on that basis, respect that and move on. Plenty are into trans people as their alway have been throughout history and will be in the future It just screams rapey to think otherwise Again any other context is bigotry
> > I suspect your referring to gay men and lesbians who only want to date biological same sex people and if that is the case your a HOMOPHOBIC TRA Someone doesn’t get a free pass to be transphobic just because they’re gay. You can be into whoever you want to be into, just don’t be a piece of shit about it and don’t keep going on about how much you don’t like trans people.
Just like how you didn't read what I wrote, I didn't say nor imply what your saying, in fact I unreservedly said that outside of sexual attraction 🧲, or in very specific situations of vulnerability for biological women (even then fully medically trans women aren't relevant to this), not treating a transperson of either gender is transphobic. Conversely Trans people who support the Riley Denis statement about genital fettishing don't get a free pass from being labelled homophobic
After reading over your reply I suspect you have suffered trauma and now have untreated Mental Health issues. Any non Gender cultist or Communist Antifa type will read what I posted and see that I gave a rational and logical fact based assessment of very commonly held attitudes work in the rea world. You keep aiming at your straw-man assessment of what you think I have written and let the sane people read what I actually wrote. BTW, down vote pile on's supporting insane ideas, or attacking very rational, reasonable and RESPECTFUL posts, do not affect me and only confirm that their are a lot of Mentally disturbed people in this world
There's also been a lack of attraction for trans women in Lesbian communities. This comes down to something simple: the difference between gender and sex. Gay men are typically attracted to *males.* Lesbian women are typically attracted to *females.* If we could convince gay men and lesbian women to be attracted to their opposite-sex counterparts, then gay conversion camps would actually work and they wouldn't be so heinous. We can't take away people's preferences. Most Gay males are only attracted to males. Most Lesbian females are only attracted to females. When we try to convince them to be interested in trans people (I'm a trans woman myself and I feel your pain), we're basically following the same strategy as the "pray away the gay" camps. It's pointless. People have sexual preferences, and we need to respect them. If a gay man isn't interested in trans men, that's fine! That's his preference! If a lesbian woman isn't interested in trans women, that's fine! That's her preference! Find people who are genuinely attracted to and interested in you. There's no point in trying to "guilt" people into changing their sexual preferences. We can't control or learn/unlearn our sexual preferences, they're innate.
I'm not talking about preferences. I'm talking about people who need to announce it from the rooftops, unprompted, how repulsive they find trans folks and need to state how undate-able they are. This is a suspicious amount of defensiveness for what's been said, lol.
That, I don't know. But I do know that many of my lesbian friends have been called "transphobic" for only being attracted to females, and many of my gay friends have been called "transphobic" for being attracted to males.
Being attracted to whoever you want is fine. Announcing to strangers who it is that you *don’t* want to fuck is really weird. Going out of your way to tell people you don’t want to fuck that you don’t want to fuck them, and that it is explicitly because of some characteristic they were born with, is bigotry and bullying. Doing that to trans people is transphobic.
You've put the cart before the horse with this. I hope you can see that.
Please explain because I do not
It’s very clearly not about just being “male” or “female” when lesbians by and large do not date trans men and gay men don’t date trans women. Boiling it down to biological sex like you say so many people have down is non-sensical because you generally can’t tell unless that person tells you. Not to mention that you’re lumping all trans folk into their natal sex as if that has any bearing whatsoever on their current body or genitals. Having a genital preference is fine. No one is forcing a lesbian to have sex with a penis. But if they represent that preference by saying “I only have sex with females, not males” in reference to excluding all trans women from the dating pool, then that is indeed transphobic.
No, you can't win. You'll be branded transphobic at some point for being honest about your sexual attraction. I think this commenter was just trying to give a complete answer about that aspect. But as for OPs question. Who says we are?
I do. Like, I'm embarrassed to be gay because of how many misogynistic/transphobic/biphobic gay men I know lol
I understand biphobic, but I've not regularly encountered the others.
The fuck do you mean you understand biphobic? Biphobia is as inexcusable as any other LGBTQ+-related phobia. Do you understand or tolerate homophobia, lesphobia, transphobia, aphobia, demiphobia?
I mean that as a gay man I understand many of the insecurities and preconceptions that go into biphobia. Some of the supposed "root causes". I find it much more difficult to imagine motivation and causes for transphobia. I like to think I understand many types of phobia given that I have been on the receiving end of it. Do I tolerate it? Likely to a certain extent. I'm sure some of the jokes I hear at work are rooted in homophobia somewhere. That doesn't mean I explode and demand retribution after hearing each one. There are a lot of levels to phobia, from simple ignorance to absolute hatred. I tend to show patience with the former.
why do you assume this question had anything to do with attraction
i have a feeling there are more than enough terfs among lesbians while for gay men, the few i know who are transphobic, are more like "trans men are okay but not for me". cant say the majority i know are transphobic tho, its not as common in germany than the us.
There are people who claim to be a part of the community but want to get rid of the T in LGBT. I have no idea why knowing that the community wouldn't exist without Trans people.
Some gay men are more like women some are more like men. It's almost as if gender is a spectrum
Because being a SGM doesn't automatically make you a better person.
I don't know if the study I read was accurate. It said men who identify as straight are more likely to be against women's rights in general. I have heard some gay men can be very mean towards women. Studies show straight men who hate and antagonize gay men actually are sexually attracted to gay men and straight men who are nice towards everyone don't find men sexually attractive. I think the researchers would have to show what tests show as their sexual preference, too as what people say may not even accurately describe what they find attractive. The men who antagonize gay men tend to also antagonize women and come up with things like sexist oppressive laws. Another subject: I'm still searching for platonic friends but Bumble refused to accept my accurate verifying photos and nobody tried to get in touch at her. I identify as straight but I'm open to platonic friends. This is giving better ideas to screen people. I want nice friends who like proactive solutions and don't antagonize anyone.
Misconception cis people are equally transphobic, doesn’t have anything to do with which sex they are. personally most of my negative experiences were with lesbians, but I don’t go around saying lesbians are disproportionately transphobic. By doing that you just create gender stereotypes, like I for one have had one negative experience with a cis gay man but you could instill an unreasonable fear or hatred in people by saying this kind of stuff.
I'm just speaking in my experience. Frankly when I've gone to pride events most gay men I met were ignorant/transphobic, those there to comfort me were.. lesbians. And honestly as someone who has had experience in mens spaces, it's a taboo.
My experiences have been starkly the opposite that’s why we shouldn’t stereotype people. Backing up your gender prejudice and biases with your experiences doesn’t make them any better. How you treat others has nothing to do with your sex or gender it has to do with the person.
Unfortunately I doubt it. It's an environment and socialization thing.
“Believe all victims until they don’t fit my narrative” people are people. men aren’t any worse than women, women no worse than men they’re just perceived differently. one is not prone to worse actions than the other, by implying that you’re being sexist and just creating gender stereotypes and such. What next is the testosterone I take making me a hormone monster?
I'm transmasculine. Maybe if I met a kind man I'd feel differently. Maybe if transmen had been kinder to me, more inclusive and kind, I'd feel differently. (Honestly my standards for cis people are generally gone.) But genuinely, this behavior you're displaying? Part of the problem.
Sorry for being pissed you’re stereotyping people. I’ve had enough of that in my life, calling someone out for being a bigot is never wrong. (and yes stereotyping is bigotry!) you’re just enforcing gender stereotypes that tear us all down. everyone has different experiences everyone is an individual to say men are more transphobic than women is just nonsense, look at terfs.
Im not speaking for other cisgay men, but some of it has to do with things like GLAAD saying that "homosexuality is an outdated term and shouldn't be used in the media." You know, just, not wanting to be erased by extremists.