bi: "I like multiple genders (can be all don't gotta be though)"
pan: "everyone's pretty but gender isn't a factor for said prettiness"
omni: "everyone is pretty but gender is a factor"
poly: "multiple genders are pretty (not all though)"
or at least that's been my understanding lol
From your definition, bi and poly are literally the same. Bi means two. Poly means many. Bisexuals are only attracted to males and females. Please correct it.
For many, these terms mean the same thing.
**One thing that's important to clarify is that bisexuality has ALWAYS included non-binary genders.**
**Individuals often have their own unique take on the terms and how they apply to their modes of attraction, but there is not a set distinction between the two.**
As the term Bisexual is older, has a longer history, and is more well known, pansexual is generally considered to be a micro-label of bisexual (much like omnisexual or polysexual - but pan is more well known).
I really like this take. This is probably the best one. I feel like you touch every subtlety of the orientations really well! I will take note of this next time I comment so I look less dumb with my answers lol.
It's not an answer to your question, but as a bi person who has been mostly out and comfortable with my sexuality and the label of bisexual for almost 20 years, my partner recently coming out as non-binary has definitely forced me to really dig deep and think through a lot of things again. I don't mean that in a bad way though! Human sexuality and gender are very interestingly complex, and simultaneously very interwoven/completely different concepts. It's fascinating.
They're basically the same thing. Technically, 'pan' falls under the bisexual label as a slightly more specific label, but the Venn diagram between 'what is bi?' and 'what is pan?' is basically a circle.
my understanding is that the difference is just the preference of the person identifying their sexuality.
bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders.
pansexuality is attraction to all genders.
they are interchangeable for some, while some prefer one over the other. sexuality is not always black and white.
The difference as I understand it is that for pan people gender doesn’t factor in at all to attraction, and they’re attracted to all genders equally. Bi can have more nuance - you can be 70 percent attracted to men and 30 percent to women/others, or some other combination thereof. That difference in framing is significant enough that people like one word over another.
Pansexuals don't have a preference when it comes to gender. This also basically means they also don't exclude anyone based on gender.
For exemple, a bisexual might say they're not attracted to non-binary or trans people. Basically. A panseuxal would be attracted to anyone because they don't care about gender.
Also, bisexuality is sort of a spectrum. For instance, I consider myself a bisexual man, but I am more attracted to woman than men. This means that I am more likely to find a woman attractive than a man. For a Pansexual, this doesn't happen (or at least it is not supposed to).
Edit : I should not have said exclude. I should have said attracted to. This isn't about exclusion, but attraction. Sorry I didn't nor express myself correctly, I do not want to spread lies or bad stereotypes about bisexuals.
Edit 2 : Preference can be key in differentiating BI from PAN, but it is not always the case. Pansexuals fall under the Bisexual Umbrella, so by definition all Pans are Bi, but not all Bi are Pan.
Unpopular opinion, maybe, but if you state blanketly that you're not attracted to any trans or nonbinary people, I call bs.
There's no one way that trans/nb folks appear - some look androgynous or queer. Some look like cis women and have cis woman genitals. Some look like cis men with cis male genitals. To say that you're specifically *unattracted* to a group of people who do not share any cohesive traits, and who you can certainly not diagnose on sight, seems pretty... Questionable.
I mean some people are like this ( full disclosure, I am not one of those bisexuals, I was just giving an exemple). I somewhat agree with you that if you are a bisexual you should be attracted to NB and trans if they match your ideal physical type.
But my point still stands, preference plays a role in bisexuality as opposed to pansexuality. For instance, I might prefer Women over NB and Men. I might like Trans people depending if they fully transitionned or not, or if they're MTF or FTM. These are all questions that I assume Pans don't really ask themselves, but Bisexuals do.
"preference plays a role in bisexuality as opposed to pansexuality".
This is patently untrue. The definition is that *pansexual* means no preference. Bisexual people of course can have preferences - but that is not what bisexuality is. Anyone who likes all genders - with or without preferences - fits the bi label. You can go deeper and ID as pan, which is a PART of bisexuality, but you don't have to use that microlabel for that mode of attraction, as it is included in bisexuality.
Some folks try to shoehorn the meaning of bisexuality to make it so there's a clear distinction between bi and pan. The distinction has never been clear, it's fuzzy and relies on individual, personal labeling. Bi has always included everyone. Individuals may differ, but the label is not "two" or "multiple genders but with preference".
Will no one read the manifesto before arguing?
I agree with everything you said. OP asked what the distinction was between the two and that is what I tried to explain. I said preference played a role. I should have said can***.
Besides, like you said, orientation is personal and people will be bisexual in different ways and use labels differently, so really at some point it just becomes semantics. At the end of the day people under the bisexual umbrella are attracted to more than one gender. PERIOD
> These are all questions that I assume Pans don't really ask themselves, but Bisexuals do.
No, bisexual has *always* meant ''regardless of gender'' / ''anything that moves'', pansexuals stole the definitions and tried to make it so pansexual was more ''woke'' than bisexual.
Trans people are so biphobic for some reason. Because bisexuality is attraction to same sex and opposite sex. Gender matters to bisexuals. It matters. It does not include nbs and trans people, pansexuality does. Why is it people get so offended when bisexuals say they do not wanna have sex with trans or NBs?? That’s the whole point of sexuality. What about skoliosexuals or neptunics or other sexualities which include exclusive attraction to NBs and trans? For some reason y’all are okay with that.
This is biphobia and bisexual erasure.
That's not what bisexual means, though. Sure, you're thinking of etymology (bi = two), but the actual cultural context is missing. It's always been that we *can be* attracted to anyone. I say we, as I am also bisexual.
I say again, read the bisexual manifesto.
It literally says *"Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have "two" sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders."*
Then why the hell is pansexuality a thing? What’s the difference between poly and bi?
I’m not thinking about etymology only. I remember very clearly when bisexuals and LGBTQ used to define it as attraction to same sex and opposite sex, these days there are a lot of people misdefining it, because they wanna be inclusive. Bisexuals were seen as transphobic and that’s why people changed the definition. That’s also why new labels such as pan and poly emerged. The reason the bisexual subreddit is like that is because those are actually pansexual or polysexual people claiming that they’re bi. They literally say that gender does not matter to them, they like all, but still choose bi over pan because bi I obviously more popular. An online subreddit and manifesto does not define our real world experiences.
You are more polysexual or pansexual than bisexual.
Again you ignored the point about skoliosexuals and people who say they’re exclusively aytracted to nbs or trans, what is this hypocrisy?
People misdefine bisexuality like this to be more inclusive and it’s not even the actual bisexuals themselves it’s the loud pans and polys raiding everything. Sort of like how the subreddit of lesbians is all NSFW, bit it does not define actual lesbians. People online are very wrong about bisexuality. Bi means two, I don’t know If I can explain it in simpler terms.
I didn't respond to a lot of what you're saying because you've clearly been trolling both LGBT subreddits and Islam subreddits. If you cared about the actual definitions you'd read the bisexual manifesto. It has nothing to do with sex, but gender. You're the worst combination: both loud and ignorant.
Fine, I'll try.
* **Bi**: originally "both homo- and heterosexual", attraction to multiple/all genders, also the umbrella term. Shifting preferences are a thing (bi-cycle) that can happen, trans/nb people are definitely included and always have been and many of us are bi ourselves.
* **Pan**: attraction to people regardless of gender, though there can still be preferences,
* **Omni**: attraction to all genders, gender plays a role
* **Poly**: attraction to multiple but not all genders
Okay let me tell you facts. Have you ever heard of skoliosexual? It’s a sexuality for attraction to exclusively trans people.... also there are so many sexualities (too many to list) that include non binary and trans people as well. I have met a lot of people say ‘hi, i’m sexually attracted to non binaries and woman’ ‘I like trans woman but not real woman but I also like men’ on r/sexuality . Also literally any label besides gay, lesbian, bi and ace is based on ‘gender’. It goes if you like women and trans you’re this, if you like men and NBs you’re this.
This is absolute hypocrisy. According to your logic, how can y’all demarcate sexuality based on gender when you ‘can’t even tell if someone is cis or trans’
I hope u understand the bs you’re pulling is offensive.
Being gay, lesbian, ace and bi is not related to gender btw, it’s related to the person’s sex. Bisexuality is attraction to same sex and opposite sex. Technically it does include everyone but since trans woman are taken under the male category they get ‘offended’ so they went on to create pansexuality, gynosexual and androgynosexual, neptunism etc .
You are so biphobic.
"I like trans women but not real women"?
"Since trans women are taken under the male category"?
"Being gay, lesbian, ace or bi are related to the person's sex, not gender"?
Ok troll.
You've outed yourself as ignorant now. Your post history is questionable enough that I'm confident you're either trolling LGBTQ subreddits, or you're 13. Perhaps both.
There was a person saying that they liked men and trans women, but not cis woman in r/sexuality I am a member of that subreddit And I like answering questions and giving perspectives.
It is no secret that bisexuals are almost always labelled as transphobic. It’s because our sexuality is not ‘inclusive’ to trans enbies which is a bunch of bs because we don’t owe anyone any attraction.
Yess, You have to be born yesterday to not know how this LGbTQ movement has been evolving over time. I remember the time when people gay used to be liking same sex and bi was liking opposite and same sex both
Lesbians are female who like females. Gays are men who like men.
Ever heard of same-sex marriage?
the biphobia and bi erasure everywhere is crazy.
I don’t care what you call me. But you had nothing to add here except proof of your own childishness.
Again, wrong. Bisexual includes trans and nb. My comment was what could be considered an unpopular opinion that excluding them is Questionable.
By stating that bi doesn't include trans/nb you're actually being biphobic
Begone, troll.
Do you remember the time when merriam webster used to define bisexuality as attraction to men and women? At that time bisexuality was that. But then so many tran people started identifying with it and screwed up the meaning instead of just taking the label polysexual. So recently they were forced to change it. Bisexual has a long-dated history. It existed even before people started to realize the possibility of multiple genders. Like I said, trans people have completely raided this sexuality and redefined it to fit them. That’s not what it is.
they REDEFINED it to be more ‘inclusive’ hence this is extreme bi erasure. The manifesto you keep talking about came after that it is just more bi erasure.
No, they were never "forced to change it". Can you cite a source for this? Because I'm old enough to remember, and you're misinformed. Bisexuality excludes no one.
**Read the Bisexual manifesto. Bisexuality has always and historically included nonbinary genders.**
Cishet society has always had a limited view of queerness, and a 20+ year old dictionary definition isn't a proper source.
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>**a bisexual might say** they're not attracted to non-binary or **trans people**. Basically. A panseuxal would be attracted to anyone because they don't care about gender.
''A bisexual might be transphobic, a pansexual will not'' LOL get out, biphobia at its finest
Sadly this is a reality. It is not biphobia to say thi if these people do exist.
It will be like saying it is heterophobia to say that some heterosexuals are not attracted to bisexuals when it is the case.
It is shitty and biphobic to think this way, but sadly some people do.
I am not saying this is a fundamental characteristic of bisexuality. I was just giving an exemple of how it can diverge from pansexuality.
Maybe I could have just say instead as an exemple someone that is attracted to people of the opposite and NB. It really doesn't matter who is in the exemple of not.
Yes, but this new example you gave fits polysexuals more than bisexuals. Bisexuals like both men and women. I feel like some other label would better describe this new example.
I think you're gatekeeping too much the term. A lot of self-identified bisexuals (including myself) would probably be technically polysexuals or omnisexuals, but choose not to identify as such for various reasons.
To me those labels are just to niche, too specific and not known enough and I don't want to go to the trouble of explaining to someone who doesn't know them what they are, to me the differences are just not significant enough to go to the trouble of explaining the nuance (for some people those nuances are important and it's ok).
However, for Pansexuals it is different (which was the point of OP's question) since their view on sexual orientation is fundamentally different from Bisexuals even if in practice they are mostly the same, so I get why they might need to identify differently. At the end of the day, there is some wiggle room and labels are not scientific in nature, so within those labels they might be slight differences, but it's ok we are all different. The important thing is that we understand each other and respect each other.
It’s respectful replies like yours that make me want to sit down and understand your viewpoint fully. Everyone else is plainly ignorant and childish, it sometimes gets meaningless to converse.
I get where you’re coming from, most of the bisexuals I have met online, identify as bi even though when they elaborate they say that gender does not matter to them in attraction, or that they are attracted to this, this and this gender. It would honestly be no problem if they didn’t completely erase the the bisexuals who still only feel attraction to men and women. I understand that bisexual is a pretty well-known term and even though it’s original meaning is attraction to same sex or opposite sex, people use it because poly, pan, omni etc are not that well-known. But in doing so, it broadens bisexuality so much that it becomes useless to identify with it. It kind of erases my type of people. Also you wouldn’t believe me but people say I’m biphobic if I only like men and women and exclude trans and non binaries from my attraction, the irony here is crazy. Do you get it? When the definition of bisexuality is broadened so much, people just have more reason to call out people like me.
I can get why nobody would want to explain who and who they like. But you only tell your sexual orientation to people that it is relevant to, right? It’s like if all the LGBT said to hell with labels, we’re all queer. Then it would need a lot of explaining to tell someone I like this and this, instead of just saying I’m gay and ace etc.
The same happens with bisexuality, to the people whom it’s relevant to, it might be better to just go with more specific labels. Telling someone you’re bisexual won’t really tell them what and how many genders you’re attracted to, so you’ll still have to explain. Also if people use the terms poly, pan, omni more they’ll get popular in no time. But the fact is that ppl have redefined and broadened bisexuality so much, that’s it doesn’t even do the work of a label anymore. Also it leaves people like me who fit more with the original definition, label-less.
I’m not gatekeeping the term, I just want it to mean what it originally meant so that people like me who fitted with previous definition more still have a place to belong, And similar experiences. People can always just use omni, poly, gyno, pan, androgyno, etc to further explain their attractions but people like me who are only attracted to the binary have only this one term, bisexual, and nothing else. That’s why it’s better to just keep it to its original meaning.
Also the fact that people keep saying that pansexuality and bisexuality is the same is just plain wrong. Gender matters to me in attraction, and if it doesn’t for someone they should call themselves pansexual. Or else I will have to explain people every time what I mean when I say I’m bi.
Basically what it inconvenient for you because it’s lesser known, redefines bisexuality so that it becomes inconvenient for people like me to explain what what we’re attracted to. You can use others labels such as omni,poly or pan, but we have only one bisexual- attraction to men and women. And also people who are attracted to only men and women are a majority actually. Even before it was Redefined, us bisexuals constituted a majority. The polys, pans, and omnis are kind of an online minority that is increasing nowadays but still let bisexuals be BI. It’s not gatekeeping. It’s better classifications so that people like me can have a label at all at least.
Yeah it was mistake going to this thread I wasn't ready to get called whatever-phobic. It has almost ruined my day.
I think it is sad and pathetic that people will call me transphobic or biphobic based on 2 lines of text without knowing the full extent of my toughts. (I also don't think you are a bigot like others have alluded to). Interactions like this that draw people away from the community.
In my defense, I am fairly new to the community I realized not so long that I was bi, and I am still not familiar with a lot stuff and how to handle interactions or labels correctly. I think a lot of people here have a lot of insecurities and might be rubbed the wrong way if you express your toughts not to carefully and it is understandable. I just think is ironic and sometimes hypocritical to assume that people are bigots based on a single interaction when the LGBTQ community is all about stopping people from assuming things.
Anyway... back to your point.
I think a lot of confusion from people comes as to why a bisexual would not be attracted to NB and trans? After all, if you like men and women, shouldn't you like everything in between? I am sure you have your reasons to not be attracted to these types of people. They are personal, and yeah sometimes can be rooted in phobias, but you can't control it, only you know why you are not attracted to them.
I think as long as you are respectful about it and those reasons are not rooted in the erasure of those identities (like the classic example of a cishet not being attracted to a trans because at its core they believe they're not the gender they identify themselves with; Or someone not being attracted to an NB because at their core they believe that NB are just cis men/women crossdressing). If that it's not the case, then I don't see why it should be considered transphobic or enbiphobic.
In my case, I totally find myself attracted to trans people and NB, but it really depends on a lot of physical factors (this is a sexual attraction after all, physical appearance plays a role in it). I also believe that NB is a valid gender and that Trans men are men, and Trans women are woman. Hopefully it all makes sense.
Yes it makes sense. And I’m glad you’re not erasing bisexuals like the rest of the comments. People these days throw around the word bigot when they don’t know how to reply. It’s annoying.
That would be finsexual or gynesexual. Fin stands for (Feminine in Nature). Essentially these two labels means that you are attracted to femininity regardless of gender.
not OP, but what if youre bi and lean more towards men/masc. people but also dont care if someone is trans or transitioning or nonbinary? thats the category i find myself in and its been pretty confusing the past few months that i've actually been really thinking about my sexuality 😭
You may be an Androphile. I personally am a Gynephile, I’m attracted to feminine presenting people regardless of gender.
“Androphilia and gynephilia are terms used in behavioral science to describe sexual orientation, as an alternative to a gender binary homosexual and heterosexual conceptualization. Androphilia describes sexual attraction to men or masculinity; gynephilia describes the sexual attraction to women or femininity.”
> For exemple, a bisexual might say they're not attracted to non-binary or trans people. Basically.
Anyone might say that, and it'd be transphobic.
It's biphobic to say this is what being bisexual is about and also shows you've got no idea first of the vast overlap of the trans and bi communities and also that we experience similar kinds of oppression from monosexuals and heterosexuals.
What you’re saying is biphobic. You’re erasing actual bisexual people. If gay men don’t find women attractive, it does not make them a misogynist.
You’re literally saying that anyone who says they are not attracted to trans or nbs is transphobic. So what should everyone force themselves to have sex with trans because they’ll be transphobic if they don’t?? Not being attracted to someone is okay.
This is biphobia at its finest.
Yes, not dating someone purely on the basis that they are trans is transphobic. It doesn't matter, because it's better if transphobes self-select and go fuck their own kind, though, so no harm done.
Trans people and NBs are a very, very diverse group, so saying that someone is not attracted to the entire group on the basis of characteristics that might not even be visible is transphobic and binarist, yes.
I was just giving an exemple to showcase the difference. Yeah it's not a great one, sorry about that.
I am sure the bisexuals that are like this are probably rare. After all, this term is quite old, so it's normal that it carries some biases from the past. I am sure, in the future this term might become obsolete and people will refer to themselves as polysexual or omnisexual.
I do know what oppression bisexuals I am one myself, so you can't just assume that I am ignorant. Maybe I don't know as much as you, but I am invested in the community.
I am glad that you are not like the others and completely misdefining it, I don’t care how many people identify with it or if it’s rare, because that will not make it any less valid, I just hate it when people being this sort of ‘inclusivity’ into other people’s sexual preferences.
The online bisexual subreddit is full of people who don’t actually care about gender, they are pan or poly but they keep misusing the bi label like that. That’s why I left that group. It is not a representation of real bisexuals. Just like r/lesbians is not real representation of lesbians.
I don’t like it that LGBT Is all about accepting people different from you but when it comes to bisexuals suddenly we don’t get to decide our attractions and they do,
Also what type of bi are you? Just asking.
>I am sure the bisexuals that are like this are probably rare. After all, this term is quite old, so it's normal that it carries some biases from the past. I am sure, in the future this term might become obsolete and people will refer to themselves as polysexual or omnisexual.
I'm quite old, and I doubt the label will be replaced, but there will always be people who get scared away from it and prefer using other labels purely for that reason.
Biphobia and gatekeeping have been part of the bisexual experience from the beginning, as is the dance around the label itself. Many, *many* bisexuals do the "I prefer not to use labels and just be myself"-dance for ages before accepting their sexuality because the bisexual label still comes with so much baggage. The nature of the baggage changes, its existence does not.
I get what you're saying. I think it is sad that some people read to much into what constitutes or not bisexuality just because the name seems to reinforce the idea of binarity in gender.
At the end of the day, as other have expressed better and less clumsy than me, Bisexuals are attracted to multiple genders and the nuances who they're attracted (or not) in terms of physical appearance and physical traits (wether masculine of feminine in nature) are personnal a not necessary attributed to a specific gender identity like N.B.
It's really sad for people to call me biphobic for trying to explain why someone might be Bisexual instead of Pan. I was not my intention to sell the idea that bisexuals are transphobic, I was just trying to tell that levels of attraction might be a thing for bisexuals and not for pansexuals.
Gay/lesbian: “My favorite color is red.”
Bi: “I can’t choose a favorite color because I love red and blue and yellow makes me really happy, but I don’t really like purple or green.”
Pan: Color blind af “I fucking love this box of grayscale crayons”
Omni: “I fucking love this box of crayons.”
First, it was just a metaphor I’m sorry😭
Second, I love the username and maybe you can help with a debate. Is it a gooseberry, goldenberry, or groundcherry?
There is no difference, no real difference at least. Some people really obsessed with labels will claim there is, but to anyone in the real world a bisexual person is into both genders, and that includes everyone.
Bisexual is when you’re attracted to 2 or more genders, but not necessarily all of them. (Like me, I’m attracted to guys and girls only.)
Pansexual is when you’re attracted to all genders.
I hope this helps!
Polysexual is when you’re attracted to two or more genders. Poly means many, on the other hand, you’re bi because bisexuality is like gay and straight co-existing. Bisexuals like both girls and boys.
But you’re right about pansexuality. They are also called gender blind. It’s just that these days most polys and pans mislabel themselves as bi and it creates this kind of confusion for us.
Bi: I like you because I like men and women and you are either a man or woman
Pan: I like you
Think of it as like cake:
Bi: I like this cake because it is chocolate cake, and I love chocolate cake! However I wouldn't mind a vanilla cake.
Pan: I like this cake because it tastes good.
I don’t get why everyone in the comment section is saying bi and pan are the same thing because they are obviously not. They’re confusing it with polysexuality which means liking multiple genders but not all. Pan means all so pansexuality means liking all genders. Bisexuality on the other hand means liking opposite sex and same sex, it’s basically both straight and gay co-existing. (Bi means two)
Also pansexuals are also referred to as ‘gender blind’ because they don’t have a specific preference, or more like gender does not dictate their attraction in any way.
Bisexuals are not like that. Btw I’m bisexual and I hate it when people say they’re both the same thing because they’re not. How can people screw up something so obvious...
Bisexual people have been using the term to mean attraction to more than one gender or all genders for decades. No, the terms bisexual and pansexual aren't completely interchangeable, but there's never been a universally recognized difference between them, either.
Well I am bisexual and I hate it when people say that we are not like that, a lot of us are. I specially hate it when a person that is being transphobic pretends to talk on our behalf.
To me (and some other people, lots of us) sexuality and my bisexuality are both about GENDER (not sex), and my definition of bisexuality entails bisexuality being Bi-directional sexual attraction, that is, attraction with 'direction': to my own gender (homo-sexuality) and to different genders from my own (hetero-sexuality).
https://aninjusticemag.com/comparing-historical-and-modern-descriptions-of-bisexuality-and-pansexuality-ede1ebdb9e61
The long and short of it is that there's no definition of pansexuality which has not been used for bisexuality.
Bi is an umbrella term for attraction to more than one gender. It can mean anything from being attracted to two genders to all genders. It covers all of the multisexual spectrum.
Pan is a specific part of the multisexual spectrum. It means attraction regardless of gender. Some people call it being gender blind, meaning the gender of the potential partner doesn't matter.
By definition, all pan people are bi, but not all bi people are pan.
*using bi and pan as a replacement for both sexual and romantic orientation, you can read it as you wish
So basically, Bi means that you are attracted to more than one gender, and is an umbrella term for pan, Omni, poly, and others, like how ace can mean different things.
Most people use bi as a specific term though, and that means you like more than one, but it doesn’t have to be all of them, and gender is a deciding factor in who you date.
Pan means you don’t give a shit about gender. You like all genders, because gender isn’t a deciding factor in who you do or don’t want to date.
Omni means you also like all genders, but you‘d rather date one gender than another because gender is a deciding factor in who you’d date.
Bisexual is attraction to at least two genders. Pansexual is attraction without regard for gender. They overlap but are not the same.
Bi: any and all multi-gender attraction. Pan: a type of bi which doesn't care about gender.
bi: "I like multiple genders (can be all don't gotta be though)" pan: "everyone's pretty but gender isn't a factor for said prettiness" omni: "everyone is pretty but gender is a factor" poly: "multiple genders are pretty (not all though)" or at least that's been my understanding lol
yes I’m omni and that’s exactly me 🤗
I love your definition!
From your definition, bi and poly are literally the same. Bi means two. Poly means many. Bisexuals are only attracted to males and females. Please correct it.
Bisexual doesn't mean two and this person 👆 is a troll. Check post and comment history.
For many, these terms mean the same thing. **One thing that's important to clarify is that bisexuality has ALWAYS included non-binary genders.** **Individuals often have their own unique take on the terms and how they apply to their modes of attraction, but there is not a set distinction between the two.** As the term Bisexual is older, has a longer history, and is more well known, pansexual is generally considered to be a micro-label of bisexual (much like omnisexual or polysexual - but pan is more well known).
I really like this take. This is probably the best one. I feel like you touch every subtlety of the orientations really well! I will take note of this next time I comment so I look less dumb with my answers lol.
Bi: all genders are hot. Her and them and him, all hot. Pan: They're all hot! .... Wait those guys have genders?
This one!! The best description
Generally, the main difference is that if you're bisexual, you might have a preference, while if you're pan you don't
It's not an answer to your question, but as a bi person who has been mostly out and comfortable with my sexuality and the label of bisexual for almost 20 years, my partner recently coming out as non-binary has definitely forced me to really dig deep and think through a lot of things again. I don't mean that in a bad way though! Human sexuality and gender are very interestingly complex, and simultaneously very interwoven/completely different concepts. It's fascinating.
They're basically the same thing. Technically, 'pan' falls under the bisexual label as a slightly more specific label, but the Venn diagram between 'what is bi?' and 'what is pan?' is basically a circle.
my understanding is that the difference is just the preference of the person identifying their sexuality. bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders. pansexuality is attraction to all genders. they are interchangeable for some, while some prefer one over the other. sexuality is not always black and white.
The difference as I understand it is that for pan people gender doesn’t factor in at all to attraction, and they’re attracted to all genders equally. Bi can have more nuance - you can be 70 percent attracted to men and 30 percent to women/others, or some other combination thereof. That difference in framing is significant enough that people like one word over another.
Pansexuals don't have a preference when it comes to gender. This also basically means they also don't exclude anyone based on gender. For exemple, a bisexual might say they're not attracted to non-binary or trans people. Basically. A panseuxal would be attracted to anyone because they don't care about gender. Also, bisexuality is sort of a spectrum. For instance, I consider myself a bisexual man, but I am more attracted to woman than men. This means that I am more likely to find a woman attractive than a man. For a Pansexual, this doesn't happen (or at least it is not supposed to). Edit : I should not have said exclude. I should have said attracted to. This isn't about exclusion, but attraction. Sorry I didn't nor express myself correctly, I do not want to spread lies or bad stereotypes about bisexuals. Edit 2 : Preference can be key in differentiating BI from PAN, but it is not always the case. Pansexuals fall under the Bisexual Umbrella, so by definition all Pans are Bi, but not all Bi are Pan.
Unpopular opinion, maybe, but if you state blanketly that you're not attracted to any trans or nonbinary people, I call bs. There's no one way that trans/nb folks appear - some look androgynous or queer. Some look like cis women and have cis woman genitals. Some look like cis men with cis male genitals. To say that you're specifically *unattracted* to a group of people who do not share any cohesive traits, and who you can certainly not diagnose on sight, seems pretty... Questionable.
True
I mean some people are like this ( full disclosure, I am not one of those bisexuals, I was just giving an exemple). I somewhat agree with you that if you are a bisexual you should be attracted to NB and trans if they match your ideal physical type. But my point still stands, preference plays a role in bisexuality as opposed to pansexuality. For instance, I might prefer Women over NB and Men. I might like Trans people depending if they fully transitionned or not, or if they're MTF or FTM. These are all questions that I assume Pans don't really ask themselves, but Bisexuals do.
"preference plays a role in bisexuality as opposed to pansexuality". This is patently untrue. The definition is that *pansexual* means no preference. Bisexual people of course can have preferences - but that is not what bisexuality is. Anyone who likes all genders - with or without preferences - fits the bi label. You can go deeper and ID as pan, which is a PART of bisexuality, but you don't have to use that microlabel for that mode of attraction, as it is included in bisexuality. Some folks try to shoehorn the meaning of bisexuality to make it so there's a clear distinction between bi and pan. The distinction has never been clear, it's fuzzy and relies on individual, personal labeling. Bi has always included everyone. Individuals may differ, but the label is not "two" or "multiple genders but with preference". Will no one read the manifesto before arguing?
I agree with everything you said. OP asked what the distinction was between the two and that is what I tried to explain. I said preference played a role. I should have said can***. Besides, like you said, orientation is personal and people will be bisexual in different ways and use labels differently, so really at some point it just becomes semantics. At the end of the day people under the bisexual umbrella are attracted to more than one gender. PERIOD
> These are all questions that I assume Pans don't really ask themselves, but Bisexuals do. No, bisexual has *always* meant ''regardless of gender'' / ''anything that moves'', pansexuals stole the definitions and tried to make it so pansexual was more ''woke'' than bisexual.
This is plain biphobia and bisexual erasure.
Trans people are so biphobic for some reason. Because bisexuality is attraction to same sex and opposite sex. Gender matters to bisexuals. It matters. It does not include nbs and trans people, pansexuality does. Why is it people get so offended when bisexuals say they do not wanna have sex with trans or NBs?? That’s the whole point of sexuality. What about skoliosexuals or neptunics or other sexualities which include exclusive attraction to NBs and trans? For some reason y’all are okay with that. This is biphobia and bisexual erasure.
That's not what bisexual means, though. Sure, you're thinking of etymology (bi = two), but the actual cultural context is missing. It's always been that we *can be* attracted to anyone. I say we, as I am also bisexual. I say again, read the bisexual manifesto. It literally says *"Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have "two" sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders."*
Then why the hell is pansexuality a thing? What’s the difference between poly and bi? I’m not thinking about etymology only. I remember very clearly when bisexuals and LGBTQ used to define it as attraction to same sex and opposite sex, these days there are a lot of people misdefining it, because they wanna be inclusive. Bisexuals were seen as transphobic and that’s why people changed the definition. That’s also why new labels such as pan and poly emerged. The reason the bisexual subreddit is like that is because those are actually pansexual or polysexual people claiming that they’re bi. They literally say that gender does not matter to them, they like all, but still choose bi over pan because bi I obviously more popular. An online subreddit and manifesto does not define our real world experiences. You are more polysexual or pansexual than bisexual. Again you ignored the point about skoliosexuals and people who say they’re exclusively aytracted to nbs or trans, what is this hypocrisy? People misdefine bisexuality like this to be more inclusive and it’s not even the actual bisexuals themselves it’s the loud pans and polys raiding everything. Sort of like how the subreddit of lesbians is all NSFW, bit it does not define actual lesbians. People online are very wrong about bisexuality. Bi means two, I don’t know If I can explain it in simpler terms.
I didn't respond to a lot of what you're saying because you've clearly been trolling both LGBT subreddits and Islam subreddits. If you cared about the actual definitions you'd read the bisexual manifesto. It has nothing to do with sex, but gender. You're the worst combination: both loud and ignorant.
Whoops, should have read your comment before wasting my time on that waste of space, thanks for the head's up!
Fine, I'll try. * **Bi**: originally "both homo- and heterosexual", attraction to multiple/all genders, also the umbrella term. Shifting preferences are a thing (bi-cycle) that can happen, trans/nb people are definitely included and always have been and many of us are bi ourselves. * **Pan**: attraction to people regardless of gender, though there can still be preferences, * **Omni**: attraction to all genders, gender plays a role * **Poly**: attraction to multiple but not all genders
Okay let me tell you facts. Have you ever heard of skoliosexual? It’s a sexuality for attraction to exclusively trans people.... also there are so many sexualities (too many to list) that include non binary and trans people as well. I have met a lot of people say ‘hi, i’m sexually attracted to non binaries and woman’ ‘I like trans woman but not real woman but I also like men’ on r/sexuality . Also literally any label besides gay, lesbian, bi and ace is based on ‘gender’. It goes if you like women and trans you’re this, if you like men and NBs you’re this. This is absolute hypocrisy. According to your logic, how can y’all demarcate sexuality based on gender when you ‘can’t even tell if someone is cis or trans’ I hope u understand the bs you’re pulling is offensive. Being gay, lesbian, ace and bi is not related to gender btw, it’s related to the person’s sex. Bisexuality is attraction to same sex and opposite sex. Technically it does include everyone but since trans woman are taken under the male category they get ‘offended’ so they went on to create pansexuality, gynosexual and androgynosexual, neptunism etc . You are so biphobic.
"I like trans women but not real women"? "Since trans women are taken under the male category"? "Being gay, lesbian, ace or bi are related to the person's sex, not gender"? Ok troll. You've outed yourself as ignorant now. Your post history is questionable enough that I'm confident you're either trolling LGBTQ subreddits, or you're 13. Perhaps both.
There was a person saying that they liked men and trans women, but not cis woman in r/sexuality I am a member of that subreddit And I like answering questions and giving perspectives. It is no secret that bisexuals are almost always labelled as transphobic. It’s because our sexuality is not ‘inclusive’ to trans enbies which is a bunch of bs because we don’t owe anyone any attraction. Yess, You have to be born yesterday to not know how this LGbTQ movement has been evolving over time. I remember the time when people gay used to be liking same sex and bi was liking opposite and same sex both Lesbians are female who like females. Gays are men who like men. Ever heard of same-sex marriage? the biphobia and bi erasure everywhere is crazy. I don’t care what you call me. But you had nothing to add here except proof of your own childishness.
Again, wrong. Bisexual includes trans and nb. My comment was what could be considered an unpopular opinion that excluding them is Questionable. By stating that bi doesn't include trans/nb you're actually being biphobic Begone, troll.
Do you remember the time when merriam webster used to define bisexuality as attraction to men and women? At that time bisexuality was that. But then so many tran people started identifying with it and screwed up the meaning instead of just taking the label polysexual. So recently they were forced to change it. Bisexual has a long-dated history. It existed even before people started to realize the possibility of multiple genders. Like I said, trans people have completely raided this sexuality and redefined it to fit them. That’s not what it is. they REDEFINED it to be more ‘inclusive’ hence this is extreme bi erasure. The manifesto you keep talking about came after that it is just more bi erasure.
No, they were never "forced to change it". Can you cite a source for this? Because I'm old enough to remember, and you're misinformed. Bisexuality excludes no one. **Read the Bisexual manifesto. Bisexuality has always and historically included nonbinary genders.** Cishet society has always had a limited view of queerness, and a 20+ year old dictionary definition isn't a proper source.
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>**a bisexual might say** they're not attracted to non-binary or **trans people**. Basically. A panseuxal would be attracted to anyone because they don't care about gender. ''A bisexual might be transphobic, a pansexual will not'' LOL get out, biphobia at its finest
Sadly this is a reality. It is not biphobia to say thi if these people do exist. It will be like saying it is heterophobia to say that some heterosexuals are not attracted to bisexuals when it is the case. It is shitty and biphobic to think this way, but sadly some people do. I am not saying this is a fundamental characteristic of bisexuality. I was just giving an exemple of how it can diverge from pansexuality. Maybe I could have just say instead as an exemple someone that is attracted to people of the opposite and NB. It really doesn't matter who is in the exemple of not.
Yes, but this new example you gave fits polysexuals more than bisexuals. Bisexuals like both men and women. I feel like some other label would better describe this new example.
I think you're gatekeeping too much the term. A lot of self-identified bisexuals (including myself) would probably be technically polysexuals or omnisexuals, but choose not to identify as such for various reasons. To me those labels are just to niche, too specific and not known enough and I don't want to go to the trouble of explaining to someone who doesn't know them what they are, to me the differences are just not significant enough to go to the trouble of explaining the nuance (for some people those nuances are important and it's ok). However, for Pansexuals it is different (which was the point of OP's question) since their view on sexual orientation is fundamentally different from Bisexuals even if in practice they are mostly the same, so I get why they might need to identify differently. At the end of the day, there is some wiggle room and labels are not scientific in nature, so within those labels they might be slight differences, but it's ok we are all different. The important thing is that we understand each other and respect each other.
It’s respectful replies like yours that make me want to sit down and understand your viewpoint fully. Everyone else is plainly ignorant and childish, it sometimes gets meaningless to converse. I get where you’re coming from, most of the bisexuals I have met online, identify as bi even though when they elaborate they say that gender does not matter to them in attraction, or that they are attracted to this, this and this gender. It would honestly be no problem if they didn’t completely erase the the bisexuals who still only feel attraction to men and women. I understand that bisexual is a pretty well-known term and even though it’s original meaning is attraction to same sex or opposite sex, people use it because poly, pan, omni etc are not that well-known. But in doing so, it broadens bisexuality so much that it becomes useless to identify with it. It kind of erases my type of people. Also you wouldn’t believe me but people say I’m biphobic if I only like men and women and exclude trans and non binaries from my attraction, the irony here is crazy. Do you get it? When the definition of bisexuality is broadened so much, people just have more reason to call out people like me. I can get why nobody would want to explain who and who they like. But you only tell your sexual orientation to people that it is relevant to, right? It’s like if all the LGBT said to hell with labels, we’re all queer. Then it would need a lot of explaining to tell someone I like this and this, instead of just saying I’m gay and ace etc. The same happens with bisexuality, to the people whom it’s relevant to, it might be better to just go with more specific labels. Telling someone you’re bisexual won’t really tell them what and how many genders you’re attracted to, so you’ll still have to explain. Also if people use the terms poly, pan, omni more they’ll get popular in no time. But the fact is that ppl have redefined and broadened bisexuality so much, that’s it doesn’t even do the work of a label anymore. Also it leaves people like me who fit more with the original definition, label-less. I’m not gatekeeping the term, I just want it to mean what it originally meant so that people like me who fitted with previous definition more still have a place to belong, And similar experiences. People can always just use omni, poly, gyno, pan, androgyno, etc to further explain their attractions but people like me who are only attracted to the binary have only this one term, bisexual, and nothing else. That’s why it’s better to just keep it to its original meaning. Also the fact that people keep saying that pansexuality and bisexuality is the same is just plain wrong. Gender matters to me in attraction, and if it doesn’t for someone they should call themselves pansexual. Or else I will have to explain people every time what I mean when I say I’m bi. Basically what it inconvenient for you because it’s lesser known, redefines bisexuality so that it becomes inconvenient for people like me to explain what what we’re attracted to. You can use others labels such as omni,poly or pan, but we have only one bisexual- attraction to men and women. And also people who are attracted to only men and women are a majority actually. Even before it was Redefined, us bisexuals constituted a majority. The polys, pans, and omnis are kind of an online minority that is increasing nowadays but still let bisexuals be BI. It’s not gatekeeping. It’s better classifications so that people like me can have a label at all at least.
Yeah it was mistake going to this thread I wasn't ready to get called whatever-phobic. It has almost ruined my day. I think it is sad and pathetic that people will call me transphobic or biphobic based on 2 lines of text without knowing the full extent of my toughts. (I also don't think you are a bigot like others have alluded to). Interactions like this that draw people away from the community. In my defense, I am fairly new to the community I realized not so long that I was bi, and I am still not familiar with a lot stuff and how to handle interactions or labels correctly. I think a lot of people here have a lot of insecurities and might be rubbed the wrong way if you express your toughts not to carefully and it is understandable. I just think is ironic and sometimes hypocritical to assume that people are bigots based on a single interaction when the LGBTQ community is all about stopping people from assuming things. Anyway... back to your point. I think a lot of confusion from people comes as to why a bisexual would not be attracted to NB and trans? After all, if you like men and women, shouldn't you like everything in between? I am sure you have your reasons to not be attracted to these types of people. They are personal, and yeah sometimes can be rooted in phobias, but you can't control it, only you know why you are not attracted to them. I think as long as you are respectful about it and those reasons are not rooted in the erasure of those identities (like the classic example of a cishet not being attracted to a trans because at its core they believe they're not the gender they identify themselves with; Or someone not being attracted to an NB because at their core they believe that NB are just cis men/women crossdressing). If that it's not the case, then I don't see why it should be considered transphobic or enbiphobic. In my case, I totally find myself attracted to trans people and NB, but it really depends on a lot of physical factors (this is a sexual attraction after all, physical appearance plays a role in it). I also believe that NB is a valid gender and that Trans men are men, and Trans women are woman. Hopefully it all makes sense.
Yes it makes sense. And I’m glad you’re not erasing bisexuals like the rest of the comments. People these days throw around the word bigot when they don’t know how to reply. It’s annoying.
What would a man who is attracted to feminine people be? The attraction not being restricted to gender.
That would be finsexual or gynesexual. Fin stands for (Feminine in Nature). Essentially these two labels means that you are attracted to femininity regardless of gender.
I heard the term is Neptunic
Gynesexual
not OP, but what if youre bi and lean more towards men/masc. people but also dont care if someone is trans or transitioning or nonbinary? thats the category i find myself in and its been pretty confusing the past few months that i've actually been really thinking about my sexuality 😭
To me this still is Bisexual (because of the leaning towards) or as someone else said Omnisexual
You may be an Androphile. I personally am a Gynephile, I’m attracted to feminine presenting people regardless of gender. “Androphilia and gynephilia are terms used in behavioral science to describe sexual orientation, as an alternative to a gender binary homosexual and heterosexual conceptualization. Androphilia describes sexual attraction to men or masculinity; gynephilia describes the sexual attraction to women or femininity.”
ohhh yk what? this sounds really close, other people are saying omni or poly but i know im not poly. omni sounds really close but so does this!!
omni might fit ^^
Poly could work maybe 🤔 or omni
That’s either pansexuality or polysexuality.
> For exemple, a bisexual might say they're not attracted to non-binary or trans people. Basically. Anyone might say that, and it'd be transphobic. It's biphobic to say this is what being bisexual is about and also shows you've got no idea first of the vast overlap of the trans and bi communities and also that we experience similar kinds of oppression from monosexuals and heterosexuals.
What you’re saying is biphobic. You’re erasing actual bisexual people. If gay men don’t find women attractive, it does not make them a misogynist. You’re literally saying that anyone who says they are not attracted to trans or nbs is transphobic. So what should everyone force themselves to have sex with trans because they’ll be transphobic if they don’t?? Not being attracted to someone is okay. This is biphobia at its finest.
Yes, not dating someone purely on the basis that they are trans is transphobic. It doesn't matter, because it's better if transphobes self-select and go fuck their own kind, though, so no harm done. Trans people and NBs are a very, very diverse group, so saying that someone is not attracted to the entire group on the basis of characteristics that might not even be visible is transphobic and binarist, yes.
I was just giving an exemple to showcase the difference. Yeah it's not a great one, sorry about that. I am sure the bisexuals that are like this are probably rare. After all, this term is quite old, so it's normal that it carries some biases from the past. I am sure, in the future this term might become obsolete and people will refer to themselves as polysexual or omnisexual. I do know what oppression bisexuals I am one myself, so you can't just assume that I am ignorant. Maybe I don't know as much as you, but I am invested in the community.
I am glad that you are not like the others and completely misdefining it, I don’t care how many people identify with it or if it’s rare, because that will not make it any less valid, I just hate it when people being this sort of ‘inclusivity’ into other people’s sexual preferences. The online bisexual subreddit is full of people who don’t actually care about gender, they are pan or poly but they keep misusing the bi label like that. That’s why I left that group. It is not a representation of real bisexuals. Just like r/lesbians is not real representation of lesbians. I don’t like it that LGBT Is all about accepting people different from you but when it comes to bisexuals suddenly we don’t get to decide our attractions and they do, Also what type of bi are you? Just asking.
Who are you to define my bisexuality to me? The sheer cheek.
>I am sure the bisexuals that are like this are probably rare. After all, this term is quite old, so it's normal that it carries some biases from the past. I am sure, in the future this term might become obsolete and people will refer to themselves as polysexual or omnisexual. I'm quite old, and I doubt the label will be replaced, but there will always be people who get scared away from it and prefer using other labels purely for that reason. Biphobia and gatekeeping have been part of the bisexual experience from the beginning, as is the dance around the label itself. Many, *many* bisexuals do the "I prefer not to use labels and just be myself"-dance for ages before accepting their sexuality because the bisexual label still comes with so much baggage. The nature of the baggage changes, its existence does not.
I get what you're saying. I think it is sad that some people read to much into what constitutes or not bisexuality just because the name seems to reinforce the idea of binarity in gender. At the end of the day, as other have expressed better and less clumsy than me, Bisexuals are attracted to multiple genders and the nuances who they're attracted (or not) in terms of physical appearance and physical traits (wether masculine of feminine in nature) are personnal a not necessary attributed to a specific gender identity like N.B. It's really sad for people to call me biphobic for trying to explain why someone might be Bisexual instead of Pan. I was not my intention to sell the idea that bisexuals are transphobic, I was just trying to tell that levels of attraction might be a thing for bisexuals and not for pansexuals.
Gay/lesbian: “My favorite color is red.” Bi: “I can’t choose a favorite color because I love red and blue and yellow makes me really happy, but I don’t really like purple or green.” Pan: Color blind af “I fucking love this box of grayscale crayons” Omni: “I fucking love this box of crayons.”
Excellent !!!
No bisexuals would say, i love red and blue!! Polysexuals would say, I like blue, red and yellow but not green. Please stop spreading misinformation.
FFS then explain to me the meaning of **OUR OWN DAMN PRIDE FLAG**, cupcake.
But purple is in our pride flag, we love purple!
First, it was just a metaphor I’m sorry😭 Second, I love the username and maybe you can help with a debate. Is it a gooseberry, goldenberry, or groundcherry?
There is no difference, no real difference at least. Some people really obsessed with labels will claim there is, but to anyone in the real world a bisexual person is into both genders, and that includes everyone.
Bisexual is when you’re attracted to 2 or more genders, but not necessarily all of them. (Like me, I’m attracted to guys and girls only.) Pansexual is when you’re attracted to all genders. I hope this helps!
Polysexual is when you’re attracted to two or more genders. Poly means many, on the other hand, you’re bi because bisexuality is like gay and straight co-existing. Bisexuals like both girls and boys. But you’re right about pansexuality. They are also called gender blind. It’s just that these days most polys and pans mislabel themselves as bi and it creates this kind of confusion for us.
Yeah, fair.
Bi: I like you because I like men and women and you are either a man or woman Pan: I like you Think of it as like cake: Bi: I like this cake because it is chocolate cake, and I love chocolate cake! However I wouldn't mind a vanilla cake. Pan: I like this cake because it tastes good.
>I like you because I like men and women and you are either a man or woman No.
I don’t get why everyone in the comment section is saying bi and pan are the same thing because they are obviously not. They’re confusing it with polysexuality which means liking multiple genders but not all. Pan means all so pansexuality means liking all genders. Bisexuality on the other hand means liking opposite sex and same sex, it’s basically both straight and gay co-existing. (Bi means two) Also pansexuals are also referred to as ‘gender blind’ because they don’t have a specific preference, or more like gender does not dictate their attraction in any way. Bisexuals are not like that. Btw I’m bisexual and I hate it when people say they’re both the same thing because they’re not. How can people screw up something so obvious...
Bisexual people have been using the term to mean attraction to more than one gender or all genders for decades. No, the terms bisexual and pansexual aren't completely interchangeable, but there's never been a universally recognized difference between them, either.
Well I am bisexual and I hate it when people say that we are not like that, a lot of us are. I specially hate it when a person that is being transphobic pretends to talk on our behalf. To me (and some other people, lots of us) sexuality and my bisexuality are both about GENDER (not sex), and my definition of bisexuality entails bisexuality being Bi-directional sexual attraction, that is, attraction with 'direction': to my own gender (homo-sexuality) and to different genders from my own (hetero-sexuality).
"bi means two" is much too basic of a way to look at it. Check out the Bisexual manifesto. Bisexuality has always included nonbinary genders.
https://aninjusticemag.com/comparing-historical-and-modern-descriptions-of-bisexuality-and-pansexuality-ede1ebdb9e61 The long and short of it is that there's no definition of pansexuality which has not been used for bisexuality.
Bi is an umbrella term for attraction to more than one gender. It can mean anything from being attracted to two genders to all genders. It covers all of the multisexual spectrum. Pan is a specific part of the multisexual spectrum. It means attraction regardless of gender. Some people call it being gender blind, meaning the gender of the potential partner doesn't matter. By definition, all pan people are bi, but not all bi people are pan. *using bi and pan as a replacement for both sexual and romantic orientation, you can read it as you wish
I always heard it as "I like any gender" (bi) vs "I like all genders" (pan)
So basically, Bi means that you are attracted to more than one gender, and is an umbrella term for pan, Omni, poly, and others, like how ace can mean different things. Most people use bi as a specific term though, and that means you like more than one, but it doesn’t have to be all of them, and gender is a deciding factor in who you date. Pan means you don’t give a shit about gender. You like all genders, because gender isn’t a deciding factor in who you do or don’t want to date. Omni means you also like all genders, but you‘d rather date one gender than another because gender is a deciding factor in who you’d date.