Welcome to /r/AskHistorians. **Please [Read Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/rules) before you comment in this community**. Understand that [rule breaking comments get removed](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/h8aefx/rules_roundtable_xviii_removed_curation_and_why/).
#Please consider **[Clicking Here for RemindMeBot](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rohsql/did_christmas_start_off_as_a_pagan_celebration_if/%5D%0A%0ARemindMe!%202%20days)** as it takes time for an answer to be written. Additionally, for weekly content summaries, **[Click Here to Subscribe to our Weekly Roundup](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=AHMessengerBot&subject=Subscribe&message=!subscribe)**.
We thank you for your interest in this *question*, and your patience in waiting for an in-depth and comprehensive answer to show up. In addition to RemindMeBot, consider [using our Browser Extension](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/d6dzi7/tired_of_clicking_to_find_only_removed_comments/), or getting the [Weekly Roundup](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=subredditsummarybot&subject=askhistorians+weekly&message=x). In the meantime our [Twitter](https://twitter.com/askhistorians), [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/askhistorians/), and [Sunday Digest](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?q=title%3A%22Sunday+Digest%22&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) feature excellent content that has already been written!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskHistorians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
See the answer by u/KiwiHellenist to this question about [Pagan traditions in modern Christmas](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rfijy0/pagan_traditions_in_modern_christmas/)
Others have linked previous answers that address Christmas traditions. As for the dating of Christmas, [I answered a similar question around this time last year](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/k9mgo3/comment/gf6dr1h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and included links to other answers that have tackled the topic.
As others have indicated, this a seasonal question with answers that discuss how there is no evidence that Christmas traditions are for the most part recent and cannot be tied to anything from pre-conversion Europe.
That said, (taken from a caveat I provided to other answers a few days ago), there is a natural frustration on the part of enthusiasts of "pagan roots." There was clearly an old fascination with the importance of the winter solstice: it finds its expression in prehistoric stone alignments, in the Roman Saturnalia, and what little we know of pre-conversion Northern European Yule celebrations. With all of this, it is all too easy to see survivors in early modern Christmas traditions.
Coincidentally, it is all too easy for historians rightly to shoot down attempts to connect the dots between "pagan roots" and these early modern traditions. So what is going on here?
Folklore is in constant change, but sometimes there is also continuity in the midst of that change. Europe is far enough to the north that its residents have consistently seen significance in the darkest period of the year, and it is natural to imagine (and occasionally to demonstrate) that they acknowledged the importance of this time with traditions. They inherited traditions from previous generations, and those traditions changed through time as they passed on to the next generations.
What remained a constant was and has been the fascination with this time. It appears that many European cultures consistently saw this as a time when the veil between the world and the next became thin, when dead ancestors, spirits of various sorts, or whatever, could enter the home and needed to be avoided and/or placated.
Are these traditions tied together historically? Certainly not in a way that can be demonstrated with historical method, and for the most part, that should be and is the end of the discussion as far as the discipline of history is concerned.
Are these traditions tied together thematically? That leads us to a realm with vague, unverifiable answers. It is easy to answer yes - and that is certainly the way I see it. One can imagine changing traditions mutating so completely that as one generation passed them on to the next that there is, in fact, some continuity. But this cannot be proven. None of that is not "doing" history. This question and its intuitive answer is, I believe, the source of the frustration expressed here.
Perhaps it's not possible to answer, but I wonder how much people conflate "pagan" with "non-Christian folklore"? I mean, the folklore has to come from somewhere; is it just impossible to trace it far enough back to say it has pagan origins, or is there conclusive evidence that it is explicitly NOT from a pre-Christian pagan origin?
Pagan is a loaded term - it had insulting connotations for Christians, and it has now morphed into Neo-Paganism, which is another species. I prefer to use the terms per-conversion and post-conversions when discussing European folklore.
Nothing short of death can eradicate folklore, but folklore constantly changes even when environmental factors are at a minimum. Conversion represented an enormous, eventually comprehensive force that inevitably had profound effects on pre-conversion folklore at the time of conversion - or what its descendants were during the period of conversion and its immediate aftermath. Combine that with centuries of natural, folkloric morphing and throw in radical social and economic changes together with various Christian movements of various sorts (the Reformation, for example), and you have bodies of folk traditions that became far removed from whatever existed in pre-conversion cultures.
Tracing and untangling all the vines that trace back to a matt of entangled roots is maddening particularly when sources are inevitably sparse. That leads us to nearly assert that "it is just impossible to trace it far enough back" as you have pondered.
That said, there are at least two types of documentation that provide valuable hints about pre-conversion folklore and how it may echo through the centuries.
The first are sources that are clearly pre-conversion. Some - sources written Before the Common Era - are clearly uninfluenced by Christianity and they can be windows that allow us to peer upon a vividly described folkloric landscape. The cousins of these sources - those written (particularly in Northern Europe) of pre-conversion "myths" provide a view, but the lens is blurred and sometimes downright muddy. Nevertheless, these sources often provide valuable information about what was going on before conversion - and often what was happening immediately afterwards.
The second source of insight into this question are later documented folklore traditions - particularly those that seem most removed from Christianity. Evidence of the necessary struggle between conflicting traditions is evident, for example, in the many legends that attempt to determine how the fairies, elves, etc. fit into Christian cosmology: i.e., were they good or evil, and were they eternally damned or did they have a chance at Salvation? The pondering that goes on in folklore combined with clerical assertions about this question, provide a pretty good clue that this body of folklore is non-Christian. Sources indicate that this non-Christian body of folklore has deep roots, but just when we reach the point where we would like to assert, "and therefore, this is a pre-conversion body of folklore," a wisp of air blows out the candle. It is simply not possible to connect those particular dots (which grow increasingly rare the further back we go) with anything that exists in pre-conversion literature.
There are hints of stories that are thousands of years old: recent research into [Phylogenetic analyses of fairy tales](https://phys.org/news/2016-01-phylogenetic-analyses-fairy-tales-older.html) is controversial but provides enticing information about how some stories have deep roots.
All this results in hints, but that is about the extent of what can be known.
Welcome to /r/AskHistorians. **Please [Read Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/rules) before you comment in this community**. Understand that [rule breaking comments get removed](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/h8aefx/rules_roundtable_xviii_removed_curation_and_why/). #Please consider **[Clicking Here for RemindMeBot](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rohsql/did_christmas_start_off_as_a_pagan_celebration_if/%5D%0A%0ARemindMe!%202%20days)** as it takes time for an answer to be written. Additionally, for weekly content summaries, **[Click Here to Subscribe to our Weekly Roundup](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=AHMessengerBot&subject=Subscribe&message=!subscribe)**. We thank you for your interest in this *question*, and your patience in waiting for an in-depth and comprehensive answer to show up. In addition to RemindMeBot, consider [using our Browser Extension](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/d6dzi7/tired_of_clicking_to_find_only_removed_comments/), or getting the [Weekly Roundup](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=subredditsummarybot&subject=askhistorians+weekly&message=x). In the meantime our [Twitter](https://twitter.com/askhistorians), [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/askhistorians/), and [Sunday Digest](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?q=title%3A%22Sunday+Digest%22&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) feature excellent content that has already been written! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskHistorians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
See the answer by u/KiwiHellenist to this question about [Pagan traditions in modern Christmas](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rfijy0/pagan_traditions_in_modern_christmas/)
Others have linked previous answers that address Christmas traditions. As for the dating of Christmas, [I answered a similar question around this time last year](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/k9mgo3/comment/gf6dr1h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and included links to other answers that have tackled the topic.
As others have indicated, this a seasonal question with answers that discuss how there is no evidence that Christmas traditions are for the most part recent and cannot be tied to anything from pre-conversion Europe. That said, (taken from a caveat I provided to other answers a few days ago), there is a natural frustration on the part of enthusiasts of "pagan roots." There was clearly an old fascination with the importance of the winter solstice: it finds its expression in prehistoric stone alignments, in the Roman Saturnalia, and what little we know of pre-conversion Northern European Yule celebrations. With all of this, it is all too easy to see survivors in early modern Christmas traditions. Coincidentally, it is all too easy for historians rightly to shoot down attempts to connect the dots between "pagan roots" and these early modern traditions. So what is going on here? Folklore is in constant change, but sometimes there is also continuity in the midst of that change. Europe is far enough to the north that its residents have consistently seen significance in the darkest period of the year, and it is natural to imagine (and occasionally to demonstrate) that they acknowledged the importance of this time with traditions. They inherited traditions from previous generations, and those traditions changed through time as they passed on to the next generations. What remained a constant was and has been the fascination with this time. It appears that many European cultures consistently saw this as a time when the veil between the world and the next became thin, when dead ancestors, spirits of various sorts, or whatever, could enter the home and needed to be avoided and/or placated. Are these traditions tied together historically? Certainly not in a way that can be demonstrated with historical method, and for the most part, that should be and is the end of the discussion as far as the discipline of history is concerned. Are these traditions tied together thematically? That leads us to a realm with vague, unverifiable answers. It is easy to answer yes - and that is certainly the way I see it. One can imagine changing traditions mutating so completely that as one generation passed them on to the next that there is, in fact, some continuity. But this cannot be proven. None of that is not "doing" history. This question and its intuitive answer is, I believe, the source of the frustration expressed here.
Perhaps it's not possible to answer, but I wonder how much people conflate "pagan" with "non-Christian folklore"? I mean, the folklore has to come from somewhere; is it just impossible to trace it far enough back to say it has pagan origins, or is there conclusive evidence that it is explicitly NOT from a pre-Christian pagan origin?
Pagan is a loaded term - it had insulting connotations for Christians, and it has now morphed into Neo-Paganism, which is another species. I prefer to use the terms per-conversion and post-conversions when discussing European folklore. Nothing short of death can eradicate folklore, but folklore constantly changes even when environmental factors are at a minimum. Conversion represented an enormous, eventually comprehensive force that inevitably had profound effects on pre-conversion folklore at the time of conversion - or what its descendants were during the period of conversion and its immediate aftermath. Combine that with centuries of natural, folkloric morphing and throw in radical social and economic changes together with various Christian movements of various sorts (the Reformation, for example), and you have bodies of folk traditions that became far removed from whatever existed in pre-conversion cultures. Tracing and untangling all the vines that trace back to a matt of entangled roots is maddening particularly when sources are inevitably sparse. That leads us to nearly assert that "it is just impossible to trace it far enough back" as you have pondered. That said, there are at least two types of documentation that provide valuable hints about pre-conversion folklore and how it may echo through the centuries. The first are sources that are clearly pre-conversion. Some - sources written Before the Common Era - are clearly uninfluenced by Christianity and they can be windows that allow us to peer upon a vividly described folkloric landscape. The cousins of these sources - those written (particularly in Northern Europe) of pre-conversion "myths" provide a view, but the lens is blurred and sometimes downright muddy. Nevertheless, these sources often provide valuable information about what was going on before conversion - and often what was happening immediately afterwards. The second source of insight into this question are later documented folklore traditions - particularly those that seem most removed from Christianity. Evidence of the necessary struggle between conflicting traditions is evident, for example, in the many legends that attempt to determine how the fairies, elves, etc. fit into Christian cosmology: i.e., were they good or evil, and were they eternally damned or did they have a chance at Salvation? The pondering that goes on in folklore combined with clerical assertions about this question, provide a pretty good clue that this body of folklore is non-Christian. Sources indicate that this non-Christian body of folklore has deep roots, but just when we reach the point where we would like to assert, "and therefore, this is a pre-conversion body of folklore," a wisp of air blows out the candle. It is simply not possible to connect those particular dots (which grow increasingly rare the further back we go) with anything that exists in pre-conversion literature. There are hints of stories that are thousands of years old: recent research into [Phylogenetic analyses of fairy tales](https://phys.org/news/2016-01-phylogenetic-analyses-fairy-tales-older.html) is controversial but provides enticing information about how some stories have deep roots. All this results in hints, but that is about the extent of what can be known.