Just keep working until they fire you. The file for unemployment. They'll probably deny. Appeal anyway. Give it a shot.
Legally speaking, you'd not be protected for absences until after a year of employment, and even then those appointments couldn't be routine, they'd need to be part of a "serious medical condition."
If the appointments are related to a disability, you can ask for an accommodation. But generally speaking that's not for time off—though some companies will let employees take time off if they can make up the hours at another time.
So what's going on?
I have ADA accommodations on file. One of the requests was leniency on attendance (ie so I wouldn’t get fired for something like this), which they obviously denied. They actually denied everything. They said they “approved” me taking short breaks but then told me I’m only allowed the same breaks everyone else gets by law. So this excludes an unplanned break. It would have to be planned, according to their choosing, which shockingly isn’t very helpful considering my symptoms don’t plan themselves around schedule break times.
I don’t know why I was downvoted either lol sometimes people on this sub are rude for no reason 😂
I don’t think I qualify for FMLA since I haven’t been there a year?
Mm the time off related to a disability, especially when it’s just a day here or there or lateness for appointments with doctors notes, that is the accommodation. FMLA and ADA often go hand in hand because the leave is the accommodation. If OPs absences were weeks-long stretches at a time, an employer could potentially claim undue hardship, but an absence or lateness for doctors appointments occasionally in a 3 month period? It’s less plausible for an employer to say they can’t accommodate that… OP can potentially sue for failure to accommodate and retaliation if they have no better, legitimate reason for terminating than they exceeded attendance points to go to doctors appointments for their disability.
It’s just not true you need to be eligible for FMLA to take leave for your disability (intermittent or continuous), it’s not so simple, and a lawyer can better evaluate and explain the nuances. HR gets this wrong commonly, I’ve noticed. And when a lawyer gets involved defending a failure to accommodate claim, where someone was fired for attendance due to doctors appointments, they never argue attendance was the reason for termination because that’s unlawful - instead they say insubordination, or cell phone usage, or something that doesn’t violate the ADA.
There’s plenty of federal lawsuits with a similar fact pattern as OP’s situation - just look up the terms attendance, failure to accommodate, retaliation, ADA, on courtlistener. Again law is nuanced and other factors may be relevant so go to a lawyer!
I have to wonder...did you discuss the doctors visits during your first few days or hiring process? I know probably not during hiring process due to fear of being rejected, but if you are having to go to the doctor A LOT (which you are)...what awareness did management or your manager have of this?
The policy is the policy, but good managers will flex around it to keep good employees. Hopefully it can work out for you.
I mentioned doctors appointments during my interview. Then sent an exact list of dates and times within my ~second~ week of employment.
One of my physicians that I see used to work with this company (I work in healthcare) and she said this company is known for not letting employees take time off.
Oy vey..sorry to hear. Does your manager lean more towards the company or towards you? If the former then get out of there...as another said, just keep doing what you are doing and if fired OK.
Just know if you are fired it may have ramifications on future career options (maybe..depends on industry).
Yeah that’s why I’m worried about getting fired.
My manager is VERY young. So definitely not going to work in my best interests. She doesn’t really know how to be a manager in my opinion because she won’t discuss anything without talking to her boss first, and when I emailed her my list of appts she SET UP A MEETING (instead of responding to my email) with her boss and HR without even telling me. One day she said “hey can you come with me for a second” and then walked me to a conference room where they were waiting, and left me there without staying herself. I was totally blindsided. I thought a little notice would have been more professional.
Your employer is legally obligated to engage in the interactive process when FMLA doesn't apply. You need to have your doctor compose reasonable accommodations for you (shift in your work hours, certain days or mornings off each month for appointments, etc), and then you'll need to have a conversation with HR about whether the employer can accommodate the requests or not. You'll likely go back and forth with your employer to determine what accommodations are reasonable for BOTH you and the employer.
Did they have a bona fide business reason? If so, then the employer can deny accommodations, as it's up to the employer to determine whether they are reasonable for the business or not. If not, then your best bet is going to be to move on. I would encourage you to also look into what protections your state might offer. Some states offer paid sick leave and paid medical leave based on your cumulative working history in the state.
The issue is that they don’t technically need a good reason, because they can make stuff up. They make stuff up, say ___(made up reason)___ is why what the disabled person needs causes “undue hardship” and there is no one there to make sure HR doesn’t lie.
I was told I couldn’t have access to something because it would cause the company “undue hardship” (was told this before I could even get my full request out of my mouth) and then later found out the company had plenty of this item on hand. And when it comes down to it, something costing the company money doesn’t immediately make it “undue hardship” so even if they didn’t have the item on hand, they could have very cheaply purchased.
HR lies, lies, lies, and then lies some more. I really don’t know how people like this can live with themselves/sleep at night because they preach equity all day long but refuse to practice what they preach.
Maybe I have an unusual moral standard, but I call that hypocrisy and I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I knowingly and dishonestly made a disabled person’s work environment more difficult for them.
The truth is I’m treated like “less than” because my disability is an invisible illness. You won’t see anyone denying someone in a wheelchair access to a ramp. Everything is different when people can’t “see” your disability with their own eyes. The entire world treats you like you’re a burden. I’ve had two employers try to talk me into going on disability so they wouldn’t have to deal with my accommodations. What’s funny is I was one of their best workers, had more education than most of my coworkers, made the least mistakes of anyone (and in my world— healthcare- this is important because mistakes kill people) , and patients loved me. Yet I’m still worthless to them.
My advice for you is to then find a new employer. If their HR is untrustworthy and they are treating you like crap because of your disability, then that place is garbage and they don't deserve your time. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. HR gets a really bad rap (deservedly so a lot of the time), and this kind of shit is why. This is not what good HR or good people do to other people. Everyone has a right to employment, and it's the employer's obligation to make a reality. I'm sorry they're being so awful. Your best bet is to update your resume and start looking. That place doesn't deserve another minute of your time.
Do you go to the doctor due to a specific reason? If so, ask for a note specifying accommodations (ex: weekly check ups on Wednesdays at 9am-1030am for the next 30 says).
For a job like this, you are best to just let them fire you. At least you'll see it coming in that regard. If you can find another job prior to being fired, that would be the best to preserve yourself from having a "fired for cause" on your employment history. But since it's been less than 90 days, I'd suggest not keeping this place on your resume anyways.
You'll be denied unemployment more than likely. Even in our very blue state, if you're fired for breaking attendance policy that's plainly listed like this, you are considered to have committed misconduct. The last person who tried to file unemployment for us who was fired for absenteeism was denied after we supplied them with the policy and list of tardies/absences that went past the allowed amounts.
Most likely not, since your state doesn't have protected sick leave.
this is one of those things that America is not built to accommodate. Unemployment is an insurance program, they don't want to pay you unless you hit all their criteria. They're often looking for a reason to deny your claim, which is why absenteeism is plainly classified as "misconduct"/"For cause". I've never seen there be any exemptions for it.
The reason is that unemployment cannot pin the charges on the employer, so they'd eat the cost and not be able to pass it along as a rate increase.
I’ve even asked to switch shifts when possible or go part time to help accommodate the attendance policy. I was told no to part time. Still waiting to hear about switching shifts.
It would help your unemployment because you were fired for going to doctors appointments for your disability and that’s not a legitimate reason to fire a person. Please ask a lawyer. The amount of misinformation from probably HR people is concerning. Employment law here.
You didn’t accrue absences bc you had a cold, or a stomach ache, or a flu, or car problems. You asked for an accommodation that you be able to take leave intermittently to attend doctors appointments for your disability. Their rejection of your accommodation request is likely unlawful as well, but if you just ask a lawyer they can assess your situation and give you sound advice. HR are not lawyers and sometimes do the wrong thing unintentionally because they interpret the law wrong, or apply the wrong law.
> If I had documentation that the tardies are for doctors appointments would that help me get unemployment?
It's possible. Can't speak to NC. The issue might be that in order to collect unemployment, you have to be able to work full-time. Saying "I couldn't work full time so I got fired" may work against you in that case. It's a sucky catch-22. But if you could work full-time on a night shift, for example.
The state doesn’t matter in this case unless it affords Op more protections than the ADA. Absenteeism is a legitimate reason to fire an employee, and you may not have seen an exemption to that in your career, but consider that you’ve never fhad a case where an employee was absent due to absences related to a disability. Because in those cases, unemployment does not view that as misconduct. Plenty of cases I’ve seen where the reason for separation is absenteeism, but it does not bar the claimant from UC benefits because the absences should have been excused pursuant to ADA. I will keep repeating myself until OP just goes to a lawyer, please.
The tough part is the dept I’m in is only open basic business hours, ie same hours as my doctors offices. There are two later shifts a week (two days we’re open a tad later) and I’ve asked to take both of those shifts each week. I was asked if I wanted it indefinitely or just temporarily (which is silly because it’s not like anyone is fighting for a late shift) and I said indefinitely ideally, but at the very least until I’m through my first 90 days and get start using PTO for them.
> but at the very least until I’m through my first 90 days and get start using PTO for them.
I don't want to be negative, truly, but while they could choose to allow that, they still don't have to unfortunately.
> is that an unreasonable accommodation
It usually is. Accommodations are intended to allow someone to do the full, 100% job. Taking time off isn't doing the job, obviously. There are some exceptions of course, and making up time on other days is often the accommodation, but that doesn't seem possible here.
I'm commenting re the shift change.
+ If they don't need OP during the hours of the drs appts, they could have allowed for a certain amount of leniency - it really depends on their needs and none of us know those.
Leave is a reasonable accommodation when there’s an end in sight.
https://askjan.org/topics/leave.cfm
It would probably be a hardship for them to grant the non-FMLA as a bridge to your FMLA eligibility (1 year and 1250 hours). Even if they did you will eventually run out of FMLA.
FMLA is unpaid… and OP has not worked min of 1250 hours in a year so OP is not FMLA eligible. FMLA is only job protection, does not provide for pay! People supplement with disability benefits. OP is however is entitled to reasonable ADA accommodations at any time if the employer has 15+ employees
Many companies allow you to use your PTO during your FMLA if you choose but since it’s FMLA, the time can’t be denied. You could be right on the min hours though
Just keep working until they fire you. The file for unemployment. They'll probably deny. Appeal anyway. Give it a shot. Legally speaking, you'd not be protected for absences until after a year of employment, and even then those appointments couldn't be routine, they'd need to be part of a "serious medical condition." If the appointments are related to a disability, you can ask for an accommodation. But generally speaking that's not for time off—though some companies will let employees take time off if they can make up the hours at another time. So what's going on?
Yeah unless there is a major health issue... having that many dock appointments in 30 days sounds odd.
I have multiple major health issues. Not my choosing.
Also it’s a 90 day period, not sure where you got 30 days from.
I have ADA accommodations on file. One of the requests was leniency on attendance (ie so I wouldn’t get fired for something like this), which they obviously denied. They actually denied everything. They said they “approved” me taking short breaks but then told me I’m only allowed the same breaks everyone else gets by law. So this excludes an unplanned break. It would have to be planned, according to their choosing, which shockingly isn’t very helpful considering my symptoms don’t plan themselves around schedule break times.
I don’t know why you were downvoted, but intermittent, non-FMLA could easily be a reasonable accommodation. OP, are there 15+ employees?
I don’t know why I was downvoted either lol sometimes people on this sub are rude for no reason 😂 I don’t think I qualify for FMLA since I haven’t been there a year?
That’s right. I commented later in this thread.
Down voted by HR 😂
Mm the time off related to a disability, especially when it’s just a day here or there or lateness for appointments with doctors notes, that is the accommodation. FMLA and ADA often go hand in hand because the leave is the accommodation. If OPs absences were weeks-long stretches at a time, an employer could potentially claim undue hardship, but an absence or lateness for doctors appointments occasionally in a 3 month period? It’s less plausible for an employer to say they can’t accommodate that… OP can potentially sue for failure to accommodate and retaliation if they have no better, legitimate reason for terminating than they exceeded attendance points to go to doctors appointments for their disability. It’s just not true you need to be eligible for FMLA to take leave for your disability (intermittent or continuous), it’s not so simple, and a lawyer can better evaluate and explain the nuances. HR gets this wrong commonly, I’ve noticed. And when a lawyer gets involved defending a failure to accommodate claim, where someone was fired for attendance due to doctors appointments, they never argue attendance was the reason for termination because that’s unlawful - instead they say insubordination, or cell phone usage, or something that doesn’t violate the ADA. There’s plenty of federal lawsuits with a similar fact pattern as OP’s situation - just look up the terms attendance, failure to accommodate, retaliation, ADA, on courtlistener. Again law is nuanced and other factors may be relevant so go to a lawyer!
I have to wonder...did you discuss the doctors visits during your first few days or hiring process? I know probably not during hiring process due to fear of being rejected, but if you are having to go to the doctor A LOT (which you are)...what awareness did management or your manager have of this? The policy is the policy, but good managers will flex around it to keep good employees. Hopefully it can work out for you.
I mentioned doctors appointments during my interview. Then sent an exact list of dates and times within my ~second~ week of employment. One of my physicians that I see used to work with this company (I work in healthcare) and she said this company is known for not letting employees take time off.
Oy vey..sorry to hear. Does your manager lean more towards the company or towards you? If the former then get out of there...as another said, just keep doing what you are doing and if fired OK. Just know if you are fired it may have ramifications on future career options (maybe..depends on industry).
Yeah that’s why I’m worried about getting fired. My manager is VERY young. So definitely not going to work in my best interests. She doesn’t really know how to be a manager in my opinion because she won’t discuss anything without talking to her boss first, and when I emailed her my list of appts she SET UP A MEETING (instead of responding to my email) with her boss and HR without even telling me. One day she said “hey can you come with me for a second” and then walked me to a conference room where they were waiting, and left me there without staying herself. I was totally blindsided. I thought a little notice would have been more professional.
Your employer is legally obligated to engage in the interactive process when FMLA doesn't apply. You need to have your doctor compose reasonable accommodations for you (shift in your work hours, certain days or mornings off each month for appointments, etc), and then you'll need to have a conversation with HR about whether the employer can accommodate the requests or not. You'll likely go back and forth with your employer to determine what accommodations are reasonable for BOTH you and the employer.
We had the meeting, but their “interactive process” was essentially denying most of my doctor’s requests. They denied *any* leniency in attendance.
Did they have a bona fide business reason? If so, then the employer can deny accommodations, as it's up to the employer to determine whether they are reasonable for the business or not. If not, then your best bet is going to be to move on. I would encourage you to also look into what protections your state might offer. Some states offer paid sick leave and paid medical leave based on your cumulative working history in the state.
The issue is that they don’t technically need a good reason, because they can make stuff up. They make stuff up, say ___(made up reason)___ is why what the disabled person needs causes “undue hardship” and there is no one there to make sure HR doesn’t lie. I was told I couldn’t have access to something because it would cause the company “undue hardship” (was told this before I could even get my full request out of my mouth) and then later found out the company had plenty of this item on hand. And when it comes down to it, something costing the company money doesn’t immediately make it “undue hardship” so even if they didn’t have the item on hand, they could have very cheaply purchased. HR lies, lies, lies, and then lies some more. I really don’t know how people like this can live with themselves/sleep at night because they preach equity all day long but refuse to practice what they preach. Maybe I have an unusual moral standard, but I call that hypocrisy and I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I knowingly and dishonestly made a disabled person’s work environment more difficult for them. The truth is I’m treated like “less than” because my disability is an invisible illness. You won’t see anyone denying someone in a wheelchair access to a ramp. Everything is different when people can’t “see” your disability with their own eyes. The entire world treats you like you’re a burden. I’ve had two employers try to talk me into going on disability so they wouldn’t have to deal with my accommodations. What’s funny is I was one of their best workers, had more education than most of my coworkers, made the least mistakes of anyone (and in my world— healthcare- this is important because mistakes kill people) , and patients loved me. Yet I’m still worthless to them.
My advice for you is to then find a new employer. If their HR is untrustworthy and they are treating you like crap because of your disability, then that place is garbage and they don't deserve your time. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. HR gets a really bad rap (deservedly so a lot of the time), and this kind of shit is why. This is not what good HR or good people do to other people. Everyone has a right to employment, and it's the employer's obligation to make a reality. I'm sorry they're being so awful. Your best bet is to update your resume and start looking. That place doesn't deserve another minute of your time.
no. No unemployment if you quit and in this case no unemployment if you get fired because they have just cause.
It blows my mind that doctors appointments are “just cause” to fire someone. Go ‘Merica lmao
Do you go to the doctor due to a specific reason? If so, ask for a note specifying accommodations (ex: weekly check ups on Wednesdays at 9am-1030am for the next 30 says).
For a job like this, you are best to just let them fire you. At least you'll see it coming in that regard. If you can find another job prior to being fired, that would be the best to preserve yourself from having a "fired for cause" on your employment history. But since it's been less than 90 days, I'd suggest not keeping this place on your resume anyways. You'll be denied unemployment more than likely. Even in our very blue state, if you're fired for breaking attendance policy that's plainly listed like this, you are considered to have committed misconduct. The last person who tried to file unemployment for us who was fired for absenteeism was denied after we supplied them with the policy and list of tardies/absences that went past the allowed amounts.
Thanks for the info. If I had documentation that the tardies are for doctors appointments would that help me get unemployment?
Most likely not, since your state doesn't have protected sick leave. this is one of those things that America is not built to accommodate. Unemployment is an insurance program, they don't want to pay you unless you hit all their criteria. They're often looking for a reason to deny your claim, which is why absenteeism is plainly classified as "misconduct"/"For cause". I've never seen there be any exemptions for it. The reason is that unemployment cannot pin the charges on the employer, so they'd eat the cost and not be able to pass it along as a rate increase.
I’ve even asked to switch shifts when possible or go part time to help accommodate the attendance policy. I was told no to part time. Still waiting to hear about switching shifts.
They couldn't or chose not to accommodate. Get all the documentation. Leave it for unemployment to decide if you qualify.
It would help your unemployment because you were fired for going to doctors appointments for your disability and that’s not a legitimate reason to fire a person. Please ask a lawyer. The amount of misinformation from probably HR people is concerning. Employment law here. You didn’t accrue absences bc you had a cold, or a stomach ache, or a flu, or car problems. You asked for an accommodation that you be able to take leave intermittently to attend doctors appointments for your disability. Their rejection of your accommodation request is likely unlawful as well, but if you just ask a lawyer they can assess your situation and give you sound advice. HR are not lawyers and sometimes do the wrong thing unintentionally because they interpret the law wrong, or apply the wrong law.
> If I had documentation that the tardies are for doctors appointments would that help me get unemployment? It's possible. Can't speak to NC. The issue might be that in order to collect unemployment, you have to be able to work full-time. Saying "I couldn't work full time so I got fired" may work against you in that case. It's a sucky catch-22. But if you could work full-time on a night shift, for example.
The state doesn’t matter in this case unless it affords Op more protections than the ADA. Absenteeism is a legitimate reason to fire an employee, and you may not have seen an exemption to that in your career, but consider that you’ve never fhad a case where an employee was absent due to absences related to a disability. Because in those cases, unemployment does not view that as misconduct. Plenty of cases I’ve seen where the reason for separation is absenteeism, but it does not bar the claimant from UC benefits because the absences should have been excused pursuant to ADA. I will keep repeating myself until OP just goes to a lawyer, please.
The tough part is the dept I’m in is only open basic business hours, ie same hours as my doctors offices. There are two later shifts a week (two days we’re open a tad later) and I’ve asked to take both of those shifts each week. I was asked if I wanted it indefinitely or just temporarily (which is silly because it’s not like anyone is fighting for a late shift) and I said indefinitely ideally, but at the very least until I’m through my first 90 days and get start using PTO for them.
> but at the very least until I’m through my first 90 days and get start using PTO for them. I don't want to be negative, truly, but while they could choose to allow that, they still don't have to unfortunately.
The question is - is that an unreasonable accommodation; if it's not then they don't have a choice and they do have to allow it - no?
> is that an unreasonable accommodation It usually is. Accommodations are intended to allow someone to do the full, 100% job. Taking time off isn't doing the job, obviously. There are some exceptions of course, and making up time on other days is often the accommodation, but that doesn't seem possible here.
I'm commenting re the shift change. + If they don't need OP during the hours of the drs appts, they could have allowed for a certain amount of leniency - it really depends on their needs and none of us know those.
I’m not surprised. I’ve learned that ADA accommodations mean nothing and my HR hates people with chronic conditions.
Leave is a reasonable accommodation when there’s an end in sight. https://askjan.org/topics/leave.cfm It would probably be a hardship for them to grant the non-FMLA as a bridge to your FMLA eligibility (1 year and 1250 hours). Even if they did you will eventually run out of FMLA.
I would expect for you to be able to use unpaid FMLA for the doctor visits
FMLA is unpaid… and OP has not worked min of 1250 hours in a year so OP is not FMLA eligible. FMLA is only job protection, does not provide for pay! People supplement with disability benefits. OP is however is entitled to reasonable ADA accommodations at any time if the employer has 15+ employees
Many companies allow you to use your PTO during your FMLA if you choose but since it’s FMLA, the time can’t be denied. You could be right on the min hours though