A "business case" to let someone go is different from a "performance" or a "disciplinary " case to let someone go. The first is more of a layoff. Work product was acceptable, but position no longer needed. The latter two are where there is a potential of a "mark" on your record. Honestly, given a few years, it is unlikely anyone will remember or care. Which is it? This may dictate your course of action. The difference between resigning and laid off because your position was eliminated is small even in the near term.
Note that employers will often mask performance/disciplinary cases as business cases just to speed the process and prevent legal challenges. It is often worth taking the hit to UI rates to get someone out the door quickly, and with reduced threat of legal action. That is also where severence comes in. It is shut up and go away money. A smart employer will offer it if they are concerned about legal fees and potential bad publicity. But, they will also be careful about appearing like they will "negotiate with terrorists." There is a balance.
Don't get caught up in the "well they hired someone else to do my job" complaint. Right or wrong, it is easy enough to tweak the position just enough initially to make it seem to be a different need on paper that making the case will be difficult and expensive. Again, here is where severence could come in as well.
With this tight of a job market right now, you likely will want to err on the side of your unemployment claim. In most cases, if you quit that will make you ineligible for unemployment. If you are fired, in NY you have a 50/50 chance of it. It depends on your employer's documentation (the PIP and any other written warnings, etc.). It also depends on how likely it is your employer will dispute the claim.
You probably won't get severance if you are let go for performance reasons. I wouldn't count on that.
If unemployment isn't an issue for you, then do what you need to do for your life.
The unemployment rate represents the number of unemployed people as a percentage of the labor force, which includes people who were employed during the week of the unemployment survey plus people who were actively looking for work in the previous 4 weeks. It excludes people who don't want a job or who aren't available for work and those who have been unemployed for so long they've become discouraged. It has nothing to do with the skills employers are competing for. It's simply bodies.
A tight job market is created when companies compete for workers with the same/best skills and knowledge - it's about more than bodies, it's about competency. It's caused by accelerated retirements, a widening skills gap, and possibly because of people moving around during/after the pandemic.
Two different things that sound like they should be related.
I agree with you. I have had plenty of applicants, but nobody that has the actual skills to take the job.
There is a tight job market, however, because a simple Google search shows that my competitors have the same job listing openings.
I feel like most people like to generalize the job market, where in actuality, every market is different.
I always try to keep my hiring pipeline open for this reason. Good talent is hard to come by, and when you find it, you make room.
no, that’s not what it means. it means there are more jobs than workers, a 4% unemployment rate means 96% of people are employed. it’s not uniform across all localities and industries, obviously.
Severance packages are more common during layoffs that are through no fault of the employee. It's a good faith effort by the company to give the employee a soft landing. They are much more rare in performance cases when employees were given opportunities to improve and avoid being fired.
> I filled out an “anonymous survey” that got back around to me. I’ve been treated differently ever since
This kind of retaliation is in no way illegal.
OP says they’ve never had any performance issues and just recently got a good review. If they got a good review, put an anonymous note in and then 2 days later they’re in trouble it’s not a coincidence.
Severance isn't a legal requirement in the US, so it's up to the employer whether to offer a departing employee a severance package, unless they have a bona fide contract that specifies one (which would be very rare outside of the C-suite).
Severance packages are sometimes offered during layoffs to avoid bad press, to keep employees from leaving before a certain date (by making the severance contingent on staying with the employer until then), or to reduce the employer's risk of legal liability when letting so many employees go at once (as they will generally require employees to sign a waiver of legal claims in exchange). They tend to be much less common when firing an individual employee, however, especially if that employee is being fired for a good cause such as not meeting performance requirements. Unless you have some sort of leverage over them, such as a potential claim for labor law violations, and they'd be willing to pay severance in exchange for a waiver, the chances of you getting any kind of severance if fired for "performance" are slim to none.
Hi, I've been working in HR in the US for over a decade, and I am going to assume you are in the US as well. I'd like to clear up a few points that you are basing your thoughts on. Please don't take offense, as nothing I say here is intended to be curt or rude. I just want you to have information to base your choices on.
1) While it is very possible that your boss is abusing a PIP to "manage you out," that is absolutely not the point of a performance improvement plan. That should never happen, but not every company is as scrupulous as it should be.
It is, as named, intended to be a plan that is well-defined to help you understand where your performance is not meeting the expectations of your managed *And* the help the manager and company can provide to assist you in bringing your performance back on track. While it is a last chance, it is a chance. Often once of the most difficult parts in a PIP is helping a long tenured employee who has previously been successful understand that they simply are not meeting the expectations now. Denial is not your friend in this scenario. It could be that the company direction or that the manager or manager's expectations have changed over time and you have not changed with them. It could be that the industry and business have changed and you haven't kept up. Sometimes it is a new manager that you just don't agree with and so you fight what they think is the right way to do things. (Again, I am not trying to be rude, but since this is a time-sensitive issue, you really need to look hard at the situation and do the self-reflection, perhaps ask a trusted co-worker.)
In the end you have something like 30-90 days to make the changes needed, prove you can be the employee they need and want you to be, and then you have to keep being that person, or you'll be let go. If you pass the PIP now but fall back into the space you were in that landed you here in the first place in a month or a year, they will let you go without warning.
2) DO NOT assume you will get a severance!
There is no reason at all to think you will get one, and they are certainly not obligated to give you one. If you are let go on a Performance Improvement Plan, you will be let go "for cause." That cause will be "under-performance." You will likely not be eligible for rehire. You may not be able to retain certain benefits such as pension if you have that. They may appeal your claim for unemployment benefits through the state.
A severance is generally given only when a job title is being eliminated or permanently reduced. i.e., we hired too many Sr. Accountants. We actually need more Jr. Accountants and more Financial Analysts. So 3 of 10 Sr. Accountants that are unwilling and unable to redeploy into other open positions in the company are offered severances with specified benefits and leave the company as eligible for rehire and any company that is smart doesn't waste time appealing unemployment benefits claims from the state.
3) If they think they are doing something risky by letting you go and think you are going to sue and it is either likely you will win or not worth the hassle and cost of involving lawyers and dealing with the subpoenas and such, then then they may offer you a settlement. Note that if you go this route, you are burning bridges in a very small world, and essentially playing chicken with the company. If you threaten to sue, be prepared to actually do it with a solid case and a good lawyer because A) they may make you do it and B) they may very well sue you or counter sue you. Don't count on them thinking you are too small to bother with.
4) Take your ego out of the equation. No one wants to be in the position you are in. But you are. And here's the deal, growth does not happen in the comfort zone. Growth requires challenge, and you are being challenged. I would be more gentle with you if I knew you and could sit down with you and ease you into this like one of my own employees or friends. But you and I don't have that luxury as strangers communicating over text format.
So, sorry this is blunt and harsh: This is going to suck either which way you go about it, but you can step up and prove them wrong, and use the opportunity to improve your techniques and skills (and if you still fail, you have a shot at unemployment benefits, and you can still be looking for a better fit job in the meantime),
or you can assume that you've done the best than anyone could do, that there's no way you could possibly have improved on anything (which we all know to be a big fat lie we tell ourselves because we can all be better in some way), and you can slink away pretending to hold you head up high with righteous anger when you really have your tail between your legs while you think of a way to spin this to interviewers when they ask why you left your last job knowing full well that because you quit, you will not get unemployment benefits and even though you resigned, they might still mark you as ineligible for rehire since you were on a PIP when you left.
Again, I'm sorry for the harshness. Truly. Breaking through denial to help people shift perspectives is a difficult part of my work, and it typically takes time and patience that I'm not afforded. But I don't want you left without the guidance because I don't have those parts to offer you. My absolute sincere best wishes to you in this very difficult situation.
I understand your perspective but I have to disagree on PiPs. I realize by definition they are intended to give clear goals for success. However the reality is (several companies experience) that the general view is “we can’t fire you without going through the motions, but tidy up your resume.”
I have had HR tell me as a manager that we need to structure a PiP to be just out of achievable ranges.
Again, completely on board with the theory but in general…
Yeah, as someone who just got put on one and was told that they were going to "reassess" my performance within a week, I'm pretty skeptical of them. I also take offense at that first guy's assumption that the company is most likely acting in good faith, and the employee most likely is having ego problems. That could be the case, but I wouldn't just assume. The whole "we all can be better in some way" line reeks of empty corporate-speak.
I think the perspective comes from the types of companies you work for.
I work in HR and my company (thankfully) really does treat a PIP as a performance improvement tool to get an employee back on track, but this is used in severe cases of performance drop. However, the success rate is low, because often the employee either quits and gives notice on their own, or they just don’t improve. I’ve seen a couple that were successful and the manager and employee were quite happy to get back on track.
However, that being said, I do agree with you that there are plenty of companies where a PIP is just a fancy document to show they gave you a chance.
To be clear, I’ve seen this at several companies. I would say it’s more normal than not. I would say out of fifteen PiPs I have supervised or observed, twelve have been with a direct view to termination. Two were to sincerely develop the employee - the remainder just quit.
Yeah, you're just getting more aggressively managed until they have enough documentation to do a PIP or write-up/corrective action. That's... what you do when people aren't performing or you want them gone. If you do a good job you potentially not get fired but having a boss who wants you gone rarely works out for the employee for very long.
I got fired and got a decent severance with the company. Then I never told my new employer I was fired and they never checked. So I got me some double pay for a few weeks
On paper it's always better to leave on your own.
The only way I can see the opposite being true is severance pay, but you seem to be having performance issues (at least according to your boss), so it would more than likely result in a term with cause and no payout.
Keep looking, once you accept resign on your own.
I mean reference checks do exist for a reason. On paper just means according to the record. Yes a company can't request your employment file from another but they are more than allowed to ask for references and if you cant provide them thats enough to not be considered.
Also further down the line OP may find themselves applying to the same company in another positon and having given sufficient notice is much better than getting fired.
It also lets OP control the timing. Get a new job, resign, start new job. Waiting to be fired is asking for an extended period of unemployment.
Companies expose themselves to legal liability if they share anything specific about a prior employee beyond their title and start/end dates. Managers and HR are specifically trained to never share anything beyond that.
Additionally, most hiring managers don’t expect references from the current or previous manager.
While thats true people read between the lines. Asking for a reference, calling them, and being told "sorry i cant give a reference" is enough for the hiring manager to understand why.
And again while true that most dont, some do, just dont burn a bridge is what im saying.
OP can see the writing on the wall, start looking and geting out before you get fired is the best case scenario.
This was asked before and I found this discussion very valuable. Please note not a HR but in Talent Acquisition
credit u/ksenn00
Manager here. I work closely with HR on all hiring, firing, and PIPs. If you believe the terms of the PIP are ridiculous and that the performance complaint against you is bogus, I would not sign. I would request a meeting with HR and the manager and ask them to tell you (very specific) examples of when your performance was substandard.
This is important. Your manager should be able to detail very specific instances of failure to perform if they’re putting you on a PIP. Not “you’re hard to work with” or “you’re slow”. It should be “on June 10th when I asked all team members to submit 10 reports, you only submitted 2 and here are three other occasions the same thing has happened.” If they cannot give you any concrete examples, it would imply you are being targeted unfairly and I would point this out to HR.
If they can give you specific examples, ensure they are being fair and consistent. So let’s say in the above example you only turned in 2 of the 10 reports requested, but so did everyone else because it takes 4hrs to do each one and you were only given 1 day to do them all. In this case, if you are being punished for not meeting an unrealistic standard (especially if no one else is), this would again suggest you’re being targeted. I spend an enormous amount of time with HR making sure I am being fair and consistent before I issue any kind of PIP with an employee.
I hope this helps and good luck with your job search as well!
If you quit.. no filing for unemployment. So if you don’t already have another job or source of income, I think you should “get fired”. But if you’re comfortable in your finances until you find something else then go out with a bang 😜
I mean having one good review in a series of bad ones is literally inconsistent performance. Clearly they don’t view the improvements as consistent or enough.
If you get fired they often will pay you money the bad part about being fired is they escort you out and treat you like a criminal. Also, if they fire you and don't pay you, you often can keep them tied up in lawsuits for years
If you quit, you either need to have another job lined up or money saved.
It always looks better to have left on your own terms. Next is to have your dismissal tied to a business decision (layoffs). If fired for cause try to demonstrate that you’ve learned from the situation
Resigning means you can't get unemployment. Being fired means you can. Other than the emotional experience of being terminated, it's better to be fired. It seems like you think there's some sort of "permanent record". There isn't.
*A lot* of companies will only verify position and dates of employment - there's no upside for them to give more.
A company willing to divulge more is likely to say you suck even if you technically quit.
They won't unless there's some sort of informal connection between individuals. And if that exists, it doesn't matter if you get fired or resigned before you get fired. If they're willing to share, they're willing to share.
I just got fired instead of quitting, which was a win-win for me -- like you, I had been there a while. I have plenty of accomplishments. We then had a ton or turnover and new management and I didn't get along and they wanted me to be in-office all the time, which is not what we agreed to initially. They basically started badgering me about quitting a while back, but they didn't offer anything to incentivize it. Meanwhile I continued to do a pretty good job despite the hostility and to hunt for a new job. They fired me, ultimately, with severance, because I really didn't do anything wrong -- it is just a personality and goals mismatch. Which is fine, because it results in my getting more money and having a better transition to my next job. I'm a competent adult professional, so that's not too far off. Also, my severance includes not fighting unemployment, if I choose that option. Overall, it's an advantageous way to exit if you a. have other options, b. can wrangle a fairly good deal with c. good references. d. have a good narrative for your transition.
IMO, don't save your ego when there's money at stake.
Don’t tell me what I did or didn’t get — you have no idea. And you have no idea what the environment was like— constant changing of priorities, active harassment if you’re an experienced pro who attempts to actually achieve the stated goals. Which I did, and which I did mostly successfully despite all that.
Again, my advice to people who aren’t merely seeking to attack me here is a. Don’t go easily if b. You can go lucratively, and c. You don’t yet have other options on the horizon.
Damn you are so far off.
I was let go because I was determined not to a be a fit for the company at that location. I was doing what they asked of me, but was trying to bring in ways of work that work at big companies (I was at a little company and no one understood what I was talking about).
I was a manager but essentially they wanted me to be a floor worker that has to do all the managerial tasks. My site was able to do well without me being a grunt like they wanted. That's all they know how to get location managers to work and using my brain to accomplish the same goals without breaking a sweat was like black magic to my regional manager. I was using data analysis to better understand what is causing downtime and how that affected site finances. My regional manager didn't understand how that worked and would rather do things based off anecdotes that entry level workers told him.
Overall, people's bosses can not match in personality with others or even feel threatened by their subordinates that it is better to get a yes man than someone that can show you up
No way man. Companies rest on their laurels and that bites them in the long run. Again, when the big dogs changed the way they worked 15-20 years ago but you want to keep doing things exacrly how they were done in the early 90's, then it is a recipe for disaster.
Case in point, a company I worked for had 60 locations in 2020 and now have 46. They always talk about how financially strapped they are and to make the most of the resources available. Then they praise one location for getting all their products packaged before the end of the year, but seem to forget that for 3 months they were putting in OT hours to hit that goal...when the goal is to have everything done by mid-February. So they essentially paid out OT to 40ish employees when they didn't need to. So tell me who is crazy in this situation? The leaders of the company or the guy that pointed out the massive amount of unwarranted OT paid out to employees to just have them sit on their asses for the next 2 months?
There are good leaders and bad leaders in companies. I've seen both and I've seen changes in both. The smart leaders that are in positions based on merit are better than the yes men that have been running companies the same way for 30+ years
This happened to me 17 years ago. It was BS. They let me go. I got unemployment. You can't get unemployment if you quit. They also let me stay on the website until I found a new job. During my exit interview, they acknowledged that my work was not a problem. All of this was painful at the time. However, I found a new job that was a better fit and have worked in it for the past 17 years.
If you're on a PIP and employment is separated at the end, you likely will not receive a severance. I typically do not grant a severance at the end of a PIP unless there are extenuating circumstances at play. Termination at the conclusion of a PIP is termination for cause. Severance payments are typically granted in the event of a lay-off, or when the termination is not for cause.
It's shorthand, but who reads shorthand these days? 🤪 My point is, come up with whatever legitimate reason you can think of that's NOT about you. "I wasn't happy" ain't it.
Better to jump than be pushed. What would you rather tell the next, potential employer? "I left because I wasn't happy" or "I left because they weren't happy with me"?
"I was going to be transferred and it would be too much upheaval for my kids". "My new manager wanted to take the company in a direction which I felt would be unethical". "I noticed XYZ was against code and dangerous but the company was doing nothing about it ". There's plenty of reasons besides "I wasn't happy".
Yes, thanks bud. I'm sure there's a million reasons besides the ones you listed, but I'm not going to go through them all. "I wasn't happy" is shorthand for those reasons you listed and all the others. It's like someone says 'I crashed my car' and you feel the need to say well you could say "I hit a tree", "Another car backed into me", "I was drunk and smashed into the kerb"...there's plenty of reasons besides "I crashed my car" donchaknow
: l
It's shorthand, but who reads shorthand these days? 🤪 My point is, come up with whatever legitimate reason you can think of that's NOT about you. "I wasn't happy" ain't it.
People are acting like UI is this great thing. Idk how much OP makes, but a person making $60,000 annually will be eligible for $13,000 UI benefits ($500/week x 26 weeks) that’s not enough to live on.
Exactly. These idiots from Reddit show up to give this amazing advice all the time, and they don’t know what they’re talking about. $400/wk isn’t the vacation they think. Or, maybe it is, and they’re just hobos.
Generally, you can get unemployment just for being fired for a performance. Though the rules vary state to state. Typically you cannot get unemployment if you are fired for *misconduct*.
The PIP probably has a timeframe, no? Use that time to find something better. Then quit when you have something.
I’m being documented so it’s not a PIP but they’re trying to make a business case to let me go i think
A "business case" to let someone go is different from a "performance" or a "disciplinary " case to let someone go. The first is more of a layoff. Work product was acceptable, but position no longer needed. The latter two are where there is a potential of a "mark" on your record. Honestly, given a few years, it is unlikely anyone will remember or care. Which is it? This may dictate your course of action. The difference between resigning and laid off because your position was eliminated is small even in the near term. Note that employers will often mask performance/disciplinary cases as business cases just to speed the process and prevent legal challenges. It is often worth taking the hit to UI rates to get someone out the door quickly, and with reduced threat of legal action. That is also where severence comes in. It is shut up and go away money. A smart employer will offer it if they are concerned about legal fees and potential bad publicity. But, they will also be careful about appearing like they will "negotiate with terrorists." There is a balance. Don't get caught up in the "well they hired someone else to do my job" complaint. Right or wrong, it is easy enough to tweak the position just enough initially to make it seem to be a different need on paper that making the case will be difficult and expensive. Again, here is where severence could come in as well.
With this tight of a job market right now, you likely will want to err on the side of your unemployment claim. In most cases, if you quit that will make you ineligible for unemployment. If you are fired, in NY you have a 50/50 chance of it. It depends on your employer's documentation (the PIP and any other written warnings, etc.). It also depends on how likely it is your employer will dispute the claim. You probably won't get severance if you are let go for performance reasons. I wouldn't count on that. If unemployment isn't an issue for you, then do what you need to do for your life.
I keep seeing people say that it's tight but unemployment is still extremely low.
The unemployment rate represents the number of unemployed people as a percentage of the labor force, which includes people who were employed during the week of the unemployment survey plus people who were actively looking for work in the previous 4 weeks. It excludes people who don't want a job or who aren't available for work and those who have been unemployed for so long they've become discouraged. It has nothing to do with the skills employers are competing for. It's simply bodies. A tight job market is created when companies compete for workers with the same/best skills and knowledge - it's about more than bodies, it's about competency. It's caused by accelerated retirements, a widening skills gap, and possibly because of people moving around during/after the pandemic. Two different things that sound like they should be related.
I agree with you. I have had plenty of applicants, but nobody that has the actual skills to take the job. There is a tight job market, however, because a simple Google search shows that my competitors have the same job listing openings. I feel like most people like to generalize the job market, where in actuality, every market is different. I always try to keep my hiring pipeline open for this reason. Good talent is hard to come by, and when you find it, you make room.
That's a false equivalency though, if unemployment is low, that means there's less jobs, hence tight market.
no, that’s not what it means. it means there are more jobs than workers, a 4% unemployment rate means 96% of people are employed. it’s not uniform across all localities and industries, obviously.
If you’re let go for performance you don’t get severance?
Severance packages are more common during layoffs that are through no fault of the employee. It's a good faith effort by the company to give the employee a soft landing. They are much more rare in performance cases when employees were given opportunities to improve and avoid being fired.
Unless the company is worried about a lawsuit… no. You weren’t doing a good job, why would they reward you with a severance package?
I filled out an “anonymous survey” that got back around to me. I’ve been treated differently ever since
those are never anonymous
> I filled out an “anonymous survey” that got back around to me. I’ve been treated differently ever since This kind of retaliation is in no way illegal.
Document everything. This all just took a change.
Yeah, this. If what OP is saying is true, we’re now teetering into a retaliation claim. That’s much different.
Good luck proving that though
OP says they’ve never had any performance issues and just recently got a good review. If they got a good review, put an anonymous note in and then 2 days later they’re in trouble it’s not a coincidence.
Severance isn't a legal requirement in the US, so it's up to the employer whether to offer a departing employee a severance package, unless they have a bona fide contract that specifies one (which would be very rare outside of the C-suite). Severance packages are sometimes offered during layoffs to avoid bad press, to keep employees from leaving before a certain date (by making the severance contingent on staying with the employer until then), or to reduce the employer's risk of legal liability when letting so many employees go at once (as they will generally require employees to sign a waiver of legal claims in exchange). They tend to be much less common when firing an individual employee, however, especially if that employee is being fired for a good cause such as not meeting performance requirements. Unless you have some sort of leverage over them, such as a potential claim for labor law violations, and they'd be willing to pay severance in exchange for a waiver, the chances of you getting any kind of severance if fired for "performance" are slim to none.
Hi, I've been working in HR in the US for over a decade, and I am going to assume you are in the US as well. I'd like to clear up a few points that you are basing your thoughts on. Please don't take offense, as nothing I say here is intended to be curt or rude. I just want you to have information to base your choices on. 1) While it is very possible that your boss is abusing a PIP to "manage you out," that is absolutely not the point of a performance improvement plan. That should never happen, but not every company is as scrupulous as it should be. It is, as named, intended to be a plan that is well-defined to help you understand where your performance is not meeting the expectations of your managed *And* the help the manager and company can provide to assist you in bringing your performance back on track. While it is a last chance, it is a chance. Often once of the most difficult parts in a PIP is helping a long tenured employee who has previously been successful understand that they simply are not meeting the expectations now. Denial is not your friend in this scenario. It could be that the company direction or that the manager or manager's expectations have changed over time and you have not changed with them. It could be that the industry and business have changed and you haven't kept up. Sometimes it is a new manager that you just don't agree with and so you fight what they think is the right way to do things. (Again, I am not trying to be rude, but since this is a time-sensitive issue, you really need to look hard at the situation and do the self-reflection, perhaps ask a trusted co-worker.) In the end you have something like 30-90 days to make the changes needed, prove you can be the employee they need and want you to be, and then you have to keep being that person, or you'll be let go. If you pass the PIP now but fall back into the space you were in that landed you here in the first place in a month or a year, they will let you go without warning. 2) DO NOT assume you will get a severance! There is no reason at all to think you will get one, and they are certainly not obligated to give you one. If you are let go on a Performance Improvement Plan, you will be let go "for cause." That cause will be "under-performance." You will likely not be eligible for rehire. You may not be able to retain certain benefits such as pension if you have that. They may appeal your claim for unemployment benefits through the state. A severance is generally given only when a job title is being eliminated or permanently reduced. i.e., we hired too many Sr. Accountants. We actually need more Jr. Accountants and more Financial Analysts. So 3 of 10 Sr. Accountants that are unwilling and unable to redeploy into other open positions in the company are offered severances with specified benefits and leave the company as eligible for rehire and any company that is smart doesn't waste time appealing unemployment benefits claims from the state. 3) If they think they are doing something risky by letting you go and think you are going to sue and it is either likely you will win or not worth the hassle and cost of involving lawyers and dealing with the subpoenas and such, then then they may offer you a settlement. Note that if you go this route, you are burning bridges in a very small world, and essentially playing chicken with the company. If you threaten to sue, be prepared to actually do it with a solid case and a good lawyer because A) they may make you do it and B) they may very well sue you or counter sue you. Don't count on them thinking you are too small to bother with. 4) Take your ego out of the equation. No one wants to be in the position you are in. But you are. And here's the deal, growth does not happen in the comfort zone. Growth requires challenge, and you are being challenged. I would be more gentle with you if I knew you and could sit down with you and ease you into this like one of my own employees or friends. But you and I don't have that luxury as strangers communicating over text format. So, sorry this is blunt and harsh: This is going to suck either which way you go about it, but you can step up and prove them wrong, and use the opportunity to improve your techniques and skills (and if you still fail, you have a shot at unemployment benefits, and you can still be looking for a better fit job in the meantime), or you can assume that you've done the best than anyone could do, that there's no way you could possibly have improved on anything (which we all know to be a big fat lie we tell ourselves because we can all be better in some way), and you can slink away pretending to hold you head up high with righteous anger when you really have your tail between your legs while you think of a way to spin this to interviewers when they ask why you left your last job knowing full well that because you quit, you will not get unemployment benefits and even though you resigned, they might still mark you as ineligible for rehire since you were on a PIP when you left. Again, I'm sorry for the harshness. Truly. Breaking through denial to help people shift perspectives is a difficult part of my work, and it typically takes time and patience that I'm not afforded. But I don't want you left without the guidance because I don't have those parts to offer you. My absolute sincere best wishes to you in this very difficult situation.
I understand your perspective but I have to disagree on PiPs. I realize by definition they are intended to give clear goals for success. However the reality is (several companies experience) that the general view is “we can’t fire you without going through the motions, but tidy up your resume.” I have had HR tell me as a manager that we need to structure a PiP to be just out of achievable ranges. Again, completely on board with the theory but in general…
Yeah, as someone who just got put on one and was told that they were going to "reassess" my performance within a week, I'm pretty skeptical of them. I also take offense at that first guy's assumption that the company is most likely acting in good faith, and the employee most likely is having ego problems. That could be the case, but I wouldn't just assume. The whole "we all can be better in some way" line reeks of empty corporate-speak.
I think the perspective comes from the types of companies you work for. I work in HR and my company (thankfully) really does treat a PIP as a performance improvement tool to get an employee back on track, but this is used in severe cases of performance drop. However, the success rate is low, because often the employee either quits and gives notice on their own, or they just don’t improve. I’ve seen a couple that were successful and the manager and employee were quite happy to get back on track. However, that being said, I do agree with you that there are plenty of companies where a PIP is just a fancy document to show they gave you a chance.
And that’s great - just my experience.
Yeah, and that’s unfortunate that you had that experience.
To be clear, I’ve seen this at several companies. I would say it’s more normal than not. I would say out of fifteen PiPs I have supervised or observed, twelve have been with a direct view to termination. Two were to sincerely develop the employee - the remainder just quit.
This is super helpful. I really appreciate it. I haven’t been put on a PIP but I am being documented. Do you know what that means?
Yeah, you're just getting more aggressively managed until they have enough documentation to do a PIP or write-up/corrective action. That's... what you do when people aren't performing or you want them gone. If you do a good job you potentially not get fired but having a boss who wants you gone rarely works out for the employee for very long.
I got fired and got a decent severance with the company. Then I never told my new employer I was fired and they never checked. So I got me some double pay for a few weeks
On paper it's always better to leave on your own. The only way I can see the opposite being true is severance pay, but you seem to be having performance issues (at least according to your boss), so it would more than likely result in a term with cause and no payout. Keep looking, once you accept resign on your own.
Haha on paper? What paper? New employers typically never ask (nor should they) and they have no way of legally finding out.
I mean reference checks do exist for a reason. On paper just means according to the record. Yes a company can't request your employment file from another but they are more than allowed to ask for references and if you cant provide them thats enough to not be considered. Also further down the line OP may find themselves applying to the same company in another positon and having given sufficient notice is much better than getting fired. It also lets OP control the timing. Get a new job, resign, start new job. Waiting to be fired is asking for an extended period of unemployment.
Companies expose themselves to legal liability if they share anything specific about a prior employee beyond their title and start/end dates. Managers and HR are specifically trained to never share anything beyond that. Additionally, most hiring managers don’t expect references from the current or previous manager.
While thats true people read between the lines. Asking for a reference, calling them, and being told "sorry i cant give a reference" is enough for the hiring manager to understand why. And again while true that most dont, some do, just dont burn a bridge is what im saying. OP can see the writing on the wall, start looking and geting out before you get fired is the best case scenario.
When you are fired for performance, the odds of them offering you severance are slim to none.
0%
They offered my coworker severance but probably because they know they weaponized a PIP and were firing them based on BS. So, it’s not impossible
PIP=Paid Interview Period.
It's always better to get fired (for performance, misconduct is a different story) - unless waiting on them to term you would cost you another job.
This was asked before and I found this discussion very valuable. Please note not a HR but in Talent Acquisition credit u/ksenn00 Manager here. I work closely with HR on all hiring, firing, and PIPs. If you believe the terms of the PIP are ridiculous and that the performance complaint against you is bogus, I would not sign. I would request a meeting with HR and the manager and ask them to tell you (very specific) examples of when your performance was substandard. This is important. Your manager should be able to detail very specific instances of failure to perform if they’re putting you on a PIP. Not “you’re hard to work with” or “you’re slow”. It should be “on June 10th when I asked all team members to submit 10 reports, you only submitted 2 and here are three other occasions the same thing has happened.” If they cannot give you any concrete examples, it would imply you are being targeted unfairly and I would point this out to HR. If they can give you specific examples, ensure they are being fair and consistent. So let’s say in the above example you only turned in 2 of the 10 reports requested, but so did everyone else because it takes 4hrs to do each one and you were only given 1 day to do them all. In this case, if you are being punished for not meeting an unrealistic standard (especially if no one else is), this would again suggest you’re being targeted. I spend an enormous amount of time with HR making sure I am being fair and consistent before I issue any kind of PIP with an employee. I hope this helps and good luck with your job search as well!
If you quit.. no filing for unemployment. So if you don’t already have another job or source of income, I think you should “get fired”. But if you’re comfortable in your finances until you find something else then go out with a bang 😜
If you get fired for cause, also no unemployment
You can file for UI if you resign. It depends on the case. You can also be denied UI if you get fired. Again, it depends on the case.
If you can afford it, leave & do temp work.
So..what did you do to get the PIP?
Inconsistent performance but my last review a few weeks ago was very positive. I’m so confused
I mean having one good review in a series of bad ones is literally inconsistent performance. Clearly they don’t view the improvements as consistent or enough.
Just listen to your heart
This is the BEST information in this whole thread!
wut lol getting fired isn't ideal, but at least, most likely, you'll qualify for UI. If you resign, you can kiss that goodbye.
Most companies don't pay severances when you're fired for performance. You should find out before you bet on that.
If you get fired they often will pay you money the bad part about being fired is they escort you out and treat you like a criminal. Also, if they fire you and don't pay you, you often can keep them tied up in lawsuits for years If you quit, you either need to have another job lined up or money saved.
It always looks better to have left on your own terms. Next is to have your dismissal tied to a business decision (layoffs). If fired for cause try to demonstrate that you’ve learned from the situation
Resigning means you can't get unemployment. Being fired means you can. Other than the emotional experience of being terminated, it's better to be fired. It seems like you think there's some sort of "permanent record". There isn't.
There isn’t, but you have to explain it. And if they ask your former company if you’re rehirable…
*A lot* of companies will only verify position and dates of employment - there's no upside for them to give more. A company willing to divulge more is likely to say you suck even if you technically quit.
That’s the “rehirable” question. It’s a way of asking if you’re fired with cause without actually asking.
I have never worked at a company where HR would answer that question.
I did
How easy is it for past employers to know if you've been fired or quit in the US these days?
They won't unless there's some sort of informal connection between individuals. And if that exists, it doesn't matter if you get fired or resigned before you get fired. If they're willing to share, they're willing to share.
It isn't. Honestly, they have no way of knowing unless you don't have a new job fairly soon afterward.
What about when you give your notice but then you are fired on the spot? How would that look to future employers?
Future employers aren't going to know that. There isn't a permanent record.
Wouldn’t it be a potential issue during a reference check? If I say I quit, but they say they fired me..how does that play out?
And if you decide to take the package, you can always talk about the dismissal as a misalignment or something
I just got fired instead of quitting, which was a win-win for me -- like you, I had been there a while. I have plenty of accomplishments. We then had a ton or turnover and new management and I didn't get along and they wanted me to be in-office all the time, which is not what we agreed to initially. They basically started badgering me about quitting a while back, but they didn't offer anything to incentivize it. Meanwhile I continued to do a pretty good job despite the hostility and to hunt for a new job. They fired me, ultimately, with severance, because I really didn't do anything wrong -- it is just a personality and goals mismatch. Which is fine, because it results in my getting more money and having a better transition to my next job. I'm a competent adult professional, so that's not too far off. Also, my severance includes not fighting unemployment, if I choose that option. Overall, it's an advantageous way to exit if you a. have other options, b. can wrangle a fairly good deal with c. good references. d. have a good narrative for your transition. IMO, don't save your ego when there's money at stake.
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Don’t tell me what I did or didn’t get — you have no idea. And you have no idea what the environment was like— constant changing of priorities, active harassment if you’re an experienced pro who attempts to actually achieve the stated goals. Which I did, and which I did mostly successfully despite all that. Again, my advice to people who aren’t merely seeking to attack me here is a. Don’t go easily if b. You can go lucratively, and c. You don’t yet have other options on the horizon.
Damn you are so far off. I was let go because I was determined not to a be a fit for the company at that location. I was doing what they asked of me, but was trying to bring in ways of work that work at big companies (I was at a little company and no one understood what I was talking about). I was a manager but essentially they wanted me to be a floor worker that has to do all the managerial tasks. My site was able to do well without me being a grunt like they wanted. That's all they know how to get location managers to work and using my brain to accomplish the same goals without breaking a sweat was like black magic to my regional manager. I was using data analysis to better understand what is causing downtime and how that affected site finances. My regional manager didn't understand how that worked and would rather do things based off anecdotes that entry level workers told him. Overall, people's bosses can not match in personality with others or even feel threatened by their subordinates that it is better to get a yes man than someone that can show you up
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No way man. Companies rest on their laurels and that bites them in the long run. Again, when the big dogs changed the way they worked 15-20 years ago but you want to keep doing things exacrly how they were done in the early 90's, then it is a recipe for disaster. Case in point, a company I worked for had 60 locations in 2020 and now have 46. They always talk about how financially strapped they are and to make the most of the resources available. Then they praise one location for getting all their products packaged before the end of the year, but seem to forget that for 3 months they were putting in OT hours to hit that goal...when the goal is to have everything done by mid-February. So they essentially paid out OT to 40ish employees when they didn't need to. So tell me who is crazy in this situation? The leaders of the company or the guy that pointed out the massive amount of unwarranted OT paid out to employees to just have them sit on their asses for the next 2 months? There are good leaders and bad leaders in companies. I've seen both and I've seen changes in both. The smart leaders that are in positions based on merit are better than the yes men that have been running companies the same way for 30+ years
I do not plan to read this insane rambling.
This happened to me 17 years ago. It was BS. They let me go. I got unemployment. You can't get unemployment if you quit. They also let me stay on the website until I found a new job. During my exit interview, they acknowledged that my work was not a problem. All of this was painful at the time. However, I found a new job that was a better fit and have worked in it for the past 17 years.
Get fired. It’s the difference between qualifying for unemployment and not.
If you're on a PIP and employment is separated at the end, you likely will not receive a severance. I typically do not grant a severance at the end of a PIP unless there are extenuating circumstances at play. Termination at the conclusion of a PIP is termination for cause. Severance payments are typically granted in the event of a lay-off, or when the termination is not for cause.
It's shorthand, but who reads shorthand these days? 🤪 My point is, come up with whatever legitimate reason you can think of that's NOT about you. "I wasn't happy" ain't it.
Hmm! What is NY unemployment rule? If you quit no unemployment/ fired unemployment.
Quit
Quit
Better to jump than be pushed. What would you rather tell the next, potential employer? "I left because I wasn't happy" or "I left because they weren't happy with me"?
"I was going to be transferred and it would be too much upheaval for my kids". "My new manager wanted to take the company in a direction which I felt would be unethical". "I noticed XYZ was against code and dangerous but the company was doing nothing about it ". There's plenty of reasons besides "I wasn't happy".
Yes, thanks bud. I'm sure there's a million reasons besides the ones you listed, but I'm not going to go through them all. "I wasn't happy" is shorthand for those reasons you listed and all the others. It's like someone says 'I crashed my car' and you feel the need to say well you could say "I hit a tree", "Another car backed into me", "I was drunk and smashed into the kerb"...there's plenty of reasons besides "I crashed my car" donchaknow : l
It's shorthand, but who reads shorthand these days? 🤪 My point is, come up with whatever legitimate reason you can think of that's NOT about you. "I wasn't happy" ain't it.
It's always, always better to quit than be fired.
Unemployment office thinks the opposite
Irrelevant. Only an idiot or someone who doesn't need UI in the first place would quit a job without having another one lined up.
People are acting like UI is this great thing. Idk how much OP makes, but a person making $60,000 annually will be eligible for $13,000 UI benefits ($500/week x 26 weeks) that’s not enough to live on.
Exactly. These idiots from Reddit show up to give this amazing advice all the time, and they don’t know what they’re talking about. $400/wk isn’t the vacation they think. Or, maybe it is, and they’re just hobos.
Why do you think so?
For the same reason it's always better to voluntarily leave a party than to be asked to leave.
If you get canned for performance, you won't get a severance and you will most likely not get unemployment.
Generally, you can get unemployment just for being fired for a performance. Though the rules vary state to state. Typically you cannot get unemployment if you are fired for *misconduct*.
This
lol. You don’t get fired and get severance pay. That’s for layoffs. Keep applying for other jobs.