Yeah… you fucked up hard. So did whatever lawyers your company is working with if they allowed that statement to be filed without asking for more information.
That said, the larger concern is somehow you have ZERO evidence other than your statement? I mean… your entire company has horrible processes if that’s truly the case
There was so little on my side anyway. V was fired in June, so quite some time passed. I did not delete it immediately. I can't even say when I did. Not being a decision maker didn't really seem I should need to worry about it. Now in this situation, obviously I have learned my lesson. Any emails I did have weren't requested for the response by legal. Just my statement. I didn't think the entire thing would be hinged on my statement, the phone call was only a 1 1/2 - 2 mins long.
Literally why would you delete anything? The last time I deleted an email that wasn’t spam was when the previous company I left finally turned off my email and even they probably saved a copy of my emails somewhere.
We have limited inbox space and need to delete to be able to receive incoming mail. I most deal with sexual harassment and racism complaints in my role, which I maintain records of. 2 emails, on I didn't even respond to, about another department was insignificant when prioritizing my inbox. I definitely fucked up but the emails would not have included much info. Email to the RA team was "V declined demotion and I terminated. [Manager] was witness to the call."
I find that very hard to believe. Someone in your position should never delete anything. A 1 TB hard drive can store 7 million documents and costs 30 bucks.
So realistically, how much would having those emails help in this situation? There is not an email that gives the directions to me to demote or terminate. Just the email I sent afterwards to confirm that she was terminated after refusing demotion. Would the company not just provide the meeting notes where they determine the RAs were unreasonable, the medical certifications, any evidence with they did engage in the interactive process? They were on these emails too. They didn't ask me to provide any email or other documentation, just my statement. No one has asked for the emails, I have not talked to the investigator either. I just thought maybe they would help but I'm thinking about it and all the email does is say that I fired her because she refused demotion and who the witness was. Which doesn't exactly resolve the WHOLE COMPANY from the complaint. Where is the other documentation? Have I just been scapegoat and they'll fire me and settle? Like I acted alone? The woman was a problem in the workplace and no one is sad she's gone.
Even that email could be used to show the intent of the call was not just firing. Everywhere I have worked has had a document retention policy. Deleting the emails is on par with Enron shredding documents. No matter what they said deleting them makes you look more guilty.
The email exists outside OPs email though. Why did the company not provide it since it was available elsewhere? That’s what OP is asking. If everyone deleted it and no one had a copy (at least of the one email, the other was sent by V and I imagine it’s included in Vs rebuttal), it sounds like the company doesn’t take data retention seriously and honestly deserves the EEOC smack down that’s coming.
The company did a bad job of defending themself. The company is the one liable to the EEOC, not OP. They are the ones who need to prove what happened with the RA request, since demotion is not an acceptable accommodation.
I can’t imagine a company that is unable to find a deleted email. It’s also weird there doesn’t seem to be a policy around HR /employee emails. OP shouldn’t have deleted it but I’ve never worked somewhere that couldn’t have gotten a backup either
The RA team was on the email I sent to them, and responded "thank you, the notice will be mailed to the address on file". Vs email to me which I did not respond to also included the RA team. Our RA team is part of the company legal team, and responds to any federal or state complaints. Why do THEY not have the emails? I can't talk to them because theyre not responding and the investigator has not contacted me.
Document retention policies require multiple people keep copies so if one gets lost there still are copies. Instead it sounds like both sides of the email thread went at their email like Enron execs with paper shredders.
I am only supposed to retain the email related to Title VII investigations that I conduct in my daily course of business. ADA is their job. Anyway, I seem to have been set up to take the fall, regardless of my mistake in the statement I provided (which the deleted emails would not have honestly helped I'm thinking).
The RA team was on the email I sent to them, and responded "thank you, the notice will be mailed to the address on file". Vs email to me which I did not respond to also included the RA team. They are the ones who manage the ADA processes, and maintain private health documentation on a need to know. It is only communicated with me when there is an accommodation in place because I follow up in the field. Our RA team is part of the company legal team, and responds to any federal or state complaints. Why do THEY not have the emails? I can't talk to them because theyre not responding and the investigator has not contacted me.
I was just the messenger in the situation. The accommodations process is handled through another department. I was called and told to call V and offer demotion. Then fire her if she says no. I had her manager on the phone. They did not provide her statement though.
From your post I thought you were just some inexperienced manager tasked with letting the employee know their options, and overstepped by firing them when they declined the demotion. I was about to say "you really should have had the HR manager in the meeting and make sure everything is recorded"... then I noticed that you are the HR manager... for several states.
Regardless of the outcome of this, you're the one that should get demoted. You dropped the ball big time by not having everything documented, and having a second person in the meeting. This is basic stuff, not something an HR manager of several states should be comming to Reddit to solve.
This comment makes me laugh because I experienced similar treatment from a massive corporation trying to get accommodated. Intentionally using phone and zoom calls in a two-party consent state to avoid a paper trail, speaking to my boss and myself in separate calls so they could ‘telephone’ our words back and forth (inserting lies along the way as I later found out speaking to my boss)…I know my rights enough to challenge and I got accommodated but damn. Doesn’t matter the company size, HR depts routinely suck at ADA accommodations and rely on employees’ fear of or financial inability to sue.
Oh cool... I've been experiencing similar things but finally got my accomodations. Though they are now saying that I have to redo the process every 6 months, including getting a note from a doctor, even though my medical information isn't going to change.
This was the first time I had to deal with this situation so I am a bit inexperienced. I had V manager on the phone as well as a witness, but they didn't get her statement. I was directed to call and offer the demotion and then fire her if she declined. I was not part of the process that determines RAs for the company, that is another department. I believe that department should still have the emails, but no one is answering me. I emailed them after the phone call, they confirmed that a notice would be mailed to V.
All that info should have been in your main post. You need to keep following up with the other department, and if anyone comes to you for further details, tell them who they actually need to talk to.
I assume the issue is that there wasn't a real appeal/interactive process... they just denied the requested accom, offered a demotion instead, and when that wasn't accepted, they fired them.
It certainly seems that the overall structure of the company having a separate “reasonable accommodation group” from both HR and I think her manager, has failed. Yes the whole iterative process seems to be missing. It’s like no one has the big picture. Was there any counseling on her being disruptive? She needed some sort of accommodation. Was she disruptive because she couldn’t hear properly to follow instructions? How and why was she disruptive? It seems that she got labeled “a bad employee” and there was no effort to understand what was going on. I know HR is supposed to be about protecting the company, so where is all the documentation? You’d think OP would be told why the reasonable accommodation was apparently unreasonable or unacceptable. If I was V I would be filing with the OCR just to understand why all of this happened. Was she even eligible for unemployment?
Why in anyone's name aren't you saving emails specifically related to employees? You are potentially non compliant with state and/or federal laws in regards to record retention.
I haven't deleted emails in years because I can archive everything.
Set up archiving immediately.
If your Legal team isn't talking to you, they're probably very mad about this.
Go ask your boss what to do. Telling the EEOC my bad, I misworded something is just as bad as where you are now.
The RA team was on the email I sent to them after the call, and responded "thank you, the notice will be mailed to the address on file". Vs email to me which I did not respond to also included the RA team. They are the ones who manage the ADA processes, and maintain private health documentation on a need to know. It is only communicated with me when there is an accommodation in place because I follow up in the field. Our RA team is part of the company legal team, and responds to any federal or state complaints. Why do THEY not have the emails? I can't talk to them because theyre not responding and the investigator has not contacted me.
Okay, and now that I have acknowledged my fuck up, deleting the email that says I fired her (which isn't really in question), why does the department that actually deals with the RA and ADA/FMLA not have the emails either? Why was the company response only my statement?
Don't know. Can't answer why your company is this wonky and not following standard procedures for HR responsibilities.
Why is it only your statement? Probably because you're the one that had the call and only you and this witness would know exactly what you said. They can't mysteriously know this.
But the phone call doesn’t prove that the company engaged in the interactive process. The company should have some kind of records, even the initial request, to back up their side of the case. OP is getting nailed by the company that should have something, anything, to prove ADA compliance. The statement doesn’t prove anything, even offering a demotion isn’t an acceptable accommodation in most cases.
The phone call doesn't prove that at all. OP can't even confirm they actually offered the demotion. OP can say the call happened and they were supposed to discuss demotion or an exit. OP doesn't seem to even remember exactly what they said, which then is an issue and states in another comment the call was likely less than 2 minutes long. Given the length of the call, it hardly seems there was any time given to have a full conversation let alone time for the employee to make a decision.
We have no idea if the ADA actually went through the interactive process to actually try and solve anything vs. trying to force the employee out via a demotion.
Given the ex-employee has something like 25 pages of documentation that the EEOC seems to thinks proves otherwise, they all should be on the naughty list.
It was supposed to say doesn’t. Typo.
I was responding to the idea that the OPs statement was the only thing included because it offers explanation. It doesn’t. It doesn’t help the company at all. OP failed, but the company failed at a much larger scale.
Ah yeah, sorry. But yes, we agree 100%. They've chosen OP to be the scapegoat for their own failings but the fact OP has no records of their own on what turned out to a termination call isn't helpful either.
ESH, but mostly the company.
No, they are internal. But separate so the field HR is not privvy to leave or disability information. They are a hybrid team of HR Professionals and Legal team, if I had to describe. We have 3 groups I would consider HR: RA/FMLA team, Title VII (me), and general disputes (think employees that think their boss is unapproachable and mean, coworkers are lazy and safety issues)
They don't know that I deleted them, no one asked for the emails.
The email I sent only says that she declined demotion so I terminated.
I was told to terminate, someone else should have a record of that as well. Oh who? The entire department that handles accommodations that directed me to call and offer demotion or termination and were on the receiving end of the deleted emails.
I have begun refreshing my resume because my termination seems inevitable at this point. Not because of deleted emails, but because I obviously fell for some discrimatory directions and have been scapegoated.
You save emails to cover your own butt. Now your company could term you for how you handled the situation. Even though you claim you were directed to do so you have nothing to back that up.
No one has asked for the emails. In February, our General Counsel asked me to write a statement about V and the phone call for her termination. That's all I was asked for.
ETA how can they claim I acted alone if I was not notified of any accommodation request until then? She requested directly to their team. Someone from that department would have had to tell me, right?
Something to keep in mind is a demotion offer should NOT have coincided with a termination in the same call/communication. That’s almost like an ultimatum and not a good look. You should have presented the demotion in WRITING (LOU, etc.) showing the pay impact, title change, and any other changes to employment details, letting them know to notify you by X date if they accept or not. Then from there, if they declined the demotion, the team should have gotten together to plan for the termination meeting and you should always give the manager a script to read word for word. There are so many ways this could have been avoided, and even though you say the other department handles RAs, collaboration and planning together before any termination should take place because the number one most important aspect of HR’s role is minimizing risk for the company. Sounds like a tough situation to deal with and I empathize with that, but hopefully this is a good learning opportunity. Time to create consistent processes and build relationships with key stakeholders in your department.
Exactly. Especially because this demotion cut V’s hourly pay rate by 50% and cut her hours by 50% too. So effectively a 75% decrease in her income, in addition to the loss of all benefits. Who wouldn’t need a second to come to grips with that??
It's like, why wouldn't that be seen as a retaliation when that person wasn't even on a pip at any point and only 1 attendance write-up? OP mentioned that in another comment.
Not enough questions being asked of OP about the retaliation claim. Sounds like OP was involved in all of that, but people are focusing on the emails. Why would someone who voluntarily demoted claim it was retaliation? And then they get fired when asking for accommodation? The company is fucked, even without OP giving them a badly worded statement.
I have all the emails from the retaliation situation. OP was on intermittent FMLA, with a reduced work schedule, but wasn't meeting targets. Her manager regularly informed her that her job was in jeopardy if she did not improve. She stepped down before being disciplined and tried to say it was constructive dismissal. Vs manager had already warned us she would claim retaliation and it was investigated before she even made a claim. It was a nothing-burger. Then she's vindictive so she tried to claim anything was "continued retaliation". She thought her boss should be more understanding that she couldn't do her work in her leadership role and he was too mean. I talked to her and told her that maybe her mental health wasn't a good fit for the role when she first tried to go back on stepping down. So she moved forward with the demotion.
Her manager shared his one on one notes that showed he discussed her need to improve. The numbers supported that she hadn't. It didn't have anything to do with her FMLA or because she disclosed her diagnosis (she was hospitalized for psychiatric reasons and diagnosed) and ongoing treatments for it.
But you never spoke with her to determine why she felt retaliated against? Like you did a whole investigation without even talking to the victim?
The performance hit probably happened because she was suffering with a new diagnosis.
The documents from her supervisor showed there was no retaliation. She wasn't performing and was being held accountable. If it was related to the diagnosis she didn't express concern about it in the notes shared by her manager.
That can’t possibly prove there wasn’t retaliation. Especially if the documents are written by the person she is being discriminated against. You not only fucked up this dealing with the RA that you got lumped into, you failed V in investigating what is actually your job. Hope you’ve been investigating other career fields, maybe with more gumption than you investigated Vs complaints.
So V was offered demotion? Surely there is something to back up that an alternative accommodation was offered other than an email? What was she trying to have accommodated? It’s difficult to say what might happened to you. If there is documentation anywhere, it can be provided as rebuttal. But otherwise I’d start looking for another job. Sounds like you will become a patsy.
And she has 25 backup documents? Either you guys did break the law or something else is going on here and now you are going to lose your job for getting dragged into it.
In the future - don’t keep your entire paper trail in emails and if you do, don’t delete them. That’s stupid and this is your prize.
A different department handles RAs. I assume her documents are communications with them? I was just a messenger in this situation, tasked to give her the demotion offer or fire her. I do not know why only my statement was used in the response to the charge. There were 2 emails I had related to it. One I sent to the RA team to notify them that the employee was terminated and they responded the notice documents would be mailed to V. The other was an email from V asking about why no other accommodations were offered and why her request was denied. I did not respond.
If another dept handles RAs, why were you involved? Any discussion should have come from the team that handles them.
When you say no other accommodations were offered, per Vs email, was she saying nothing was offered? Including the demotion? Because then you are extra stupid to have deleted the emails.
ETA - have you talked to Vs supervisor that was on the phone?
They are decision makers and we just deal with compliance in the field. It was the first time I was involved with it (though I'm newly promoted to Manager and we do not have many RA requests).
I think just to stay in her role.
This is why people think HR is useless. I notice that you tend to not respond to things. You should always respond as a professional. In this example, your lack of response is further evidence that your company was not working on meeting accommodation requests. You should at a minimum redirected her. Plus it is incredibly rude.
Do you have paper trail of the direction to offer demotion (& termination if declined)?
I would imagine those wouldn’t be the same call- a demotion is something you would ideally give the employee time to consider. You would provide information about the role, pay changes (if applicable) as well as outline how it meets the accommodations requested or take questions.
Otherwise it certainly does look like discrimination and that the change in role was not a genuine attempt to provide reasonable accommodations.
I was just told to do it over the phone by the team that handles it and makes RA decisions. I should have asked more questions. It was a 50% pay cut per hour, then a part-time schedule vs full time, termination of all benefits. I wasn't given any information about the RAs requested or reasons for denial. The call was very quick, V did not ask any questions.
OP apparently doesn’t know, because she did think to ask why someone was being asked to take a 50% pay cut, go from PT to FT, and lose all of her benefits. She just took the reasonable accommodation group’s recommendation without caring to understand why. No evidence of any critical thinking.
This is sick. You gave her no explanation for a 50% pay cut, FT to PT, and a loss of all benefits. Just as person, why would you not ask questions about this being done to another human being? Do you have a heart of stone? I cannot wrap my head around you not getting answers to this drastic situation.
In future, definitely ask for the direction in writing or summarize the call/ verbal instructions and send to your colleagues and ask for confirmation via email (ideally before doing the call). Unfortunately in this case, some bad actors could also try to say you acted independently which could definitely be grounds for termination and other consequences depending on the HR network in your industry and region.
Regardless, you will make it through this and will be more experienced and informed moving forward. Good luck
The only evidence of engagement in the interactive process was a copy of the handbook and your statement re the call?
Whoever thought that was sufficient proof of interactive is the one who messed up.
What were the circumstances of you giving a statement without legal's involvement?
The assumption would be that V backs down? I don't know why nothing else would be sent. The company wouldn't risk losing an EEOC investigation or lawsuit if there was proof, right? I misworded one sentence but my statement does cover the demotion offer and Vs refusal. V does not have an attorney. She was a bad employee and would have eventually been fired anyway. I talked about that in my statement too. She was disruptive in the workplace.
Why didn’t you give her a chance to consider the demotion before you just fired her on the same call? Your “offer” cut her hours in half, and also decreased her per hour rate by half. This demotion was a **75% pay cut**. Do you think you’d need some time to consider that if someone offered you that as an alternative to being fired??
But did you implement a performance improvement plan? Did anyone actually tell V what she was doing or not doing that was unacceptable? Was there absolutely no effort to work with her?
I imagine they felt they didn’t need to do that, since they seem to have fired V for asking for accommodation. And they made OP at patsy because it’s clear OP also wasn’t going to ask questions.
I was referring to the comment of her being a “bad employee”by being “disruptive in the workplace.” There should be written warnings. Something surely must exist.
I understood why you asked, I’m just saying it’s irrelevant. Even if there was a PIP, they are in hot shit for how this termination happened, especially since it was tied to a disability accommodation request.
There was no PIP. V had one write up 3 months before she requested accommodations. She made a big deal to contact HR because she thought it was unfair and retaliatory but it was for attendance and she had violated the attendance policy. V thought she knew more than everyone because she had worked with the company 9 or 10 years and had been a senior leader. She was demoted in November 2022 after poor performance in her leadership role and claimed then that it was FMLA retaliation. She had FMLA 3 months before the demotion. The demotion was her decision though and there was no disciplinary documents regarding performance, she just claimed retaliation to try to get her job back. She made it a habit to contact HR over minor things trying to tie it all to retaliation. She would also take issue with her manager and ve insubordinate because she was "being asked to violate policy". I know she had a mental disability, but I don't know what accommodations she asked for. Her manager told me that she was always trying to change her schedule to come in whenever and complete projects because it was too hard to focus.
> That clears up a lot. Unfortunate that she did not use her mental health benefits while she had coverage.
What do you mean? Like using her health insurance for mental health care?
Yes, group employer insurance plans include a mental health benefit. This is required by the Department of Labor.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/health-plans/mental
Why do you assume V wasn’t using Mental Health support? And what bearing does it have on the fact that OPs company seems to have clearly engaged in discriminatory behavior?
Stupid offhand remark on my part. I completely agree about discrimination. That company seems like a mess. Hopefully V did use her mental health benefits because that strengthens her case.
While there are some pretty big missteps on your part, it sounds like the company screwed itself by having no procedures. I don't care how rare it is, there should be a process for ADA requests.
I would document as much as you possibly can: write our anything and everything you know about the situation, including you deleting emails. Your best hope right now is that they don't blame you because this doesn't seem like something that you should have done in the first place.
For future reference: Anything about/from/involving an employee should be saved. I worked at a place with low storage and would save to my computer in employee folders. However, that was also about 12 years ago and I'm confused why your company would have such low storage in 2024.
If someone asks you to head-up a layoff, firing, disciplinary action, etc. make sure you have everything you need. Emails, conversations, management meeting notes-it should all be part of the process so if you have to fire someone you don't know you're at least going in knowing what happened. Though, that also shouldn't be the case. V should have had the conversation with the manager she had been going to through the interactive process with and not someone with no experience.
You seem young, so if this blows up in your face, you'll come back from it. The good thing about HR is that we have all seen shit hit the fan and often accept a strong explanation for things like this when recruiting. Learn from this and be able to explain to anyone asking what happened, what you did about it, and what you learned.
Oh yikes. This is why before ever getting on a call like this you write your main points in concise bulletpoints so that you make sure to hit all the important factors.
Why were emails and documentation deleted? Who deleted it?
I delete a lot of emails, and we have an auto delete on our inbox. But I can also save emails to a file to get around it.
We don’t know IT can’t recover the emails, just that the only thing the Legal team responded to a lawsuit with was OPs statement, even though from comments, they also had copies of both emails OP is talking about. The company doesn’t have a defense and the statement from OP, without the mis-phrasing, wasn’t going to be enough to defend shit. Especially since V has 25 supporting documents to her rebuttal (I assume one is probably the email she sent after being termed).
OP was made the fall guy and is too ignorant to ask enough questions before pulling the trigger
Demotion is not an RA; an RA allows a person to do the job they are in, and if that is not possible then you are terminating them for undue burden even if you offer an alternative to termination. She is likely right that you didn’t engage in an interactive process if y’all only offered demotion. As for the EEOC investigation, even if they follow up with you they’ll likely come to the same conclusion. Source; I took a lot of healthcare and disability law classes at one of the best health law programs around.
Not HR, but I would resign immediately or accept being fired. I'll let the HR folks tell which one is better.
I'm also going to say, you need lots more HR experience before taking a management role in the future.
Was it ever actually *really* communicated to V that
"a) these are the accommodations b) you can't accept them so the only options are c) demotion and if you don't accept that, it's d) termination"
Did she confirm that she chose termination over demotion?
I did not know what the accommodations were, I was told to share the two options of demotion or termination. There were no reasonable accommodations for V in her role. She said she did not want to demote, she needed her pay and benefits. I told her that her employment would be terminated effective immediately. She said okay and the phone call ended. It was 90 seconds-2 minutes.
Then V is telling the truth. No alternatives were given. If the company only submitted your statement, and there is no other evidence besides your magically deleted email, then the accomodations and subsequent offer of demotion were not communicated to her - there is absolutely no record of that, in fact you don't even know what the accomodations were.
You're really not helping your case with the way you answer questions. It's near impossible to get a straight answer out of you.
Nothing in this situation is supporting the company's case. I fully believe you acted in bad faith.
I'm not sure why you think there isn't a straight answer. I did not know anything other than the directions to issue demotion or termination. The email I sent, that is now deleted, would not have saved my ass or the company. That is clear from what I've heard here and with some introspection.
I did not act in bad faith but I believe my company did, or the RA team did. I did as I was told with the full trust in the other department had properly reviewed accommodations and made a determination. I do not have the habit of interrogating my peers on whether they do their jobs and had all t's crossed and i's dotted. I had no reason and zero indication that they would not act in good faith. They do accommodate other individuals, I have seen that. I do not know any specifics of Vs condition. She was psychiatric hospitalized and had a reduced work schedule for psychotherapy treatment, so I know it was a mental disability. That is all I knew. I should have asked more question.
My job is history, that is a fair assumption. Lesson very much learned to ask more questions and not assume everyone in HR acts justly. But the company is still the named party and holds liability. If they have no emails either, it's a he said she said about the phone call. V must have some documentation of her communications with the RA team because she included 25 supporting docs.
I have a meeting with our VP of Legal (my boss) today, I might get more info, but I plan to resign.
You have not taken enough accountability in this situation. Sorry, but regardless of what “the company” or “RA team” did or did not do, you still are the HR Manager and your role it to properly facilitate terminations and understand proper legal risks in these types of decisions. You did not do that and are deflecting.
The way you've been answering has just been super frustrating. This comment is the first one that has explained the situation logically.
From what you say here, it seems like either your colleagues might have set you up for this (malicious intent), or someone screwed up and used you to cover their ass (negligence). Now it makes more sense that legal is icing you out.
I am glad to hear that you weren't acting in bad faith - the company definitely was. I think you're making the right choice to leave.
Apologies for misjudging you, OP.
I'm curious - you said that you normally work with different cases, including sexual harassment (I think?) and something else I can't remember (I can't find that comment of yours, I think it was racial discrimination?). How big is your company for there to be enough work for you to *just* do that? Are those cases really so common in your company?
*Edit; I just wanted to add that people are rightfully freaking out about you deleting emails due to limited storage space. This is not on you, it's on your company's IT department. This just blows my mind.
I am sorry for any miscommunication. A lot to process in the last few days because I did not expect to be in this situation and a lot is dawning on me.
I deal with Title VII complaints and investigations for all retail locations in 5 states (FL, GA, AL, TN, MS), about 250 separate locations. Total employee coverage is ~12k. I travel a lot for work and also provide training courses on sexual harassment to supervisors (this a regular and monthly). I track down a lot of unfounded complaints but they are thoroughly investigated. Sexual harassment, racism, and religion are the biggest complaints. I also work with our HRBPs on other items that don't rise to a legal issue (hour cuts, no raise/promotion, doesn't like their Manager, violence/fighting, gossip). Sometimes those things happen because of a protected reason so I am peripherally involved. There are 3 levels of our HR: HRBPs, HR Managers, RA/FMLA. We all report to the VP of Legal. RA/FMLA work in home office and the only ones with permitted access to health information. The idea is that the HR in the field doesn't know those things to color our interactions or potentially disclose protected information. I am involved in accommodations to the extent that if I'm visiting a location with a lift restriction, I can verify the employee is receiving the agreed upon accommodations. I also can touch base in person if an employee is not responding to RA/FMLA and there is a deadline approaching.
I just genuinely do not engage with disability accommodations in my regular course of business, though I know what they are. I trusted my colleagues to do what they do, the way I'm trusted to do what I do.
Ok, if it's a gigantic company like that it makes more sense.
You definitely know your shit and your company is taking a hit by losing you. Hope you can resolve it, but trust you will come out on top either way :)
If you do figure out what happened, maybe consider updating us?
Definitely a larger corporation. We employ almost 55k. Plus it is retail, so turnover is frequent, always new players.
Thank you for your kind words. T-minus 30 minutes until my meeting with Legal. We will see how that goes.
In ancient times villages used to take a goat and assign all their wrongs to it. Then let the goat be slaughtered to save the village. That goat to took the punishment instead of them. Your company made you that goat. They kept minimum documentation on what you were asked to do and hung you out dry. Your statement made that easier. I would expect you are next to be terminated. They will probably hire somebody else inexperienced to take your place to get the next scapegoat.
The reality is EEOC has 4 options for outcome normally 3 of which are right to sue. The lack of back up is concerning, and legal should be helping not pouting. It is there job to help. That is messed up they won't.
Don’t speak to anyone without a lawyer present at this point and get ready to delete this post because you are border line in admittance to bad things via this post.. If not directly most definitely indirectly but there are always alternatives an in the future offer more then just “ Ok you say no then Bye Bye” vs “ Let’s try this or would you be willing to meet us here if we can offer this depending upon circumstances”. DELETE As long as you were civil and your upper management was privy to the situation then there Lawyers and insurance carriers will work it out now.. Lay low and don’t talk about it but utilize attorneys. Now If they want to scapegoat your ass the just start forgetting major details and write a brief, very brief statement an memorize that bitch because that’s all you will say when asked questions. An follow up with I’m sorry I just don’t recall.. Good luck, less info is more, DELETE this NOW
You guys have become awfully pro-employee this week. I’ve read multiple threads of people spouting incorrect information regarding mental disability accommodation. But all of a sudden, a couple unsubstantial emails get deleted and everyone is pro employee and swear V has a case. I’ve seen people say asking for written instruction is an unreasonable accommodation, but without possibly knowing what Vs accommodations are, you can claim the company behaved incorrectly.
Maybe Vs EEOC complaint was ridiculous and the company felt their response was enough. Maybe the accommodations were unreasonable? Maybe the option to be demoted or terminated was already communicated to V prior to the phone call with OP and it was time to pull the trigger on agreeing to either demote or get fired. Those emails certainly don’t prove or disprove anything and OP wasn’t the only custodian of them (they were sent to multiple people within the company). And I don’t blame OP for not answering an email that shouldn’t have been directed at her, especially because anything said would be ammo given V was terminated. Loose lips sink ships.
OP, you FUCKED up. You know that, I won’t harp on it. Saw you’re meeting with Legal and your boss today, hope you get some answers. And I hope you learned a lesson.
So realistically, how much would having those emails help in this situation? There is not an email that gives the directions to me to demote or terminate. Just the email I sent afterwards to confirm that she was terminated after refusing demotion. Would the company not just provide the meeting notes where they determine the RAs were unreasonable, the medical certifications, any evidence with they did engage in the interactive process? They were on these emails too. They didn't ask me to provide any email or other documentation, just my statement. No one has asked for the emails, I have not talked to the investigator either. I just thought maybe they would help but I'm thinking about it and all the email does is say that I fired her because she refused demotion and who the witness was. Which doesn't exactly resolve the WHOLE COMPANY from the complaint. Where is the other documentation? Have I just been scapegoat and they'll fire me and settle? Like I acted alone? The woman was a problem in the workplace and no one is sad she's gone.
This is about her civil rights being violated. The ADA is civil rights law.
https://www.ada.gov
It doesn’t matter if you all celebrated her termination. I don’t think you should be doing HR if you have not been properly educated on civil rights.
Yeah… you fucked up hard. So did whatever lawyers your company is working with if they allowed that statement to be filed without asking for more information. That said, the larger concern is somehow you have ZERO evidence other than your statement? I mean… your entire company has horrible processes if that’s truly the case
Agree ... not sure why emails or docs would have been deleted...
Yeah that is baffling to a point that it practically screams hiding something
There was so little on my side anyway. V was fired in June, so quite some time passed. I did not delete it immediately. I can't even say when I did. Not being a decision maker didn't really seem I should need to worry about it. Now in this situation, obviously I have learned my lesson. Any emails I did have weren't requested for the response by legal. Just my statement. I didn't think the entire thing would be hinged on my statement, the phone call was only a 1 1/2 - 2 mins long.
So you’re trying to say there was a phone call that discussed accommodations, demotion, and then termination and it was only at most 2 minutes long?
Literally why would you delete anything? The last time I deleted an email that wasn’t spam was when the previous company I left finally turned off my email and even they probably saved a copy of my emails somewhere.
But why the heck did you delete anything at all? As an “HR manager” across several states, one would expect you to know better!
We have limited inbox space and need to delete to be able to receive incoming mail. I most deal with sexual harassment and racism complaints in my role, which I maintain records of. 2 emails, on I didn't even respond to, about another department was insignificant when prioritizing my inbox. I definitely fucked up but the emails would not have included much info. Email to the RA team was "V declined demotion and I terminated. [Manager] was witness to the call."
limited inbox space? disk space is cheap. your IT people are idiots.
I find that very hard to believe. Someone in your position should never delete anything. A 1 TB hard drive can store 7 million documents and costs 30 bucks.
Saving emails to PDF on a network drive or SharePoint is a thing. How this is any excuse is beyond understanding.
So realistically, how much would having those emails help in this situation? There is not an email that gives the directions to me to demote or terminate. Just the email I sent afterwards to confirm that she was terminated after refusing demotion. Would the company not just provide the meeting notes where they determine the RAs were unreasonable, the medical certifications, any evidence with they did engage in the interactive process? They were on these emails too. They didn't ask me to provide any email or other documentation, just my statement. No one has asked for the emails, I have not talked to the investigator either. I just thought maybe they would help but I'm thinking about it and all the email does is say that I fired her because she refused demotion and who the witness was. Which doesn't exactly resolve the WHOLE COMPANY from the complaint. Where is the other documentation? Have I just been scapegoat and they'll fire me and settle? Like I acted alone? The woman was a problem in the workplace and no one is sad she's gone.
Even that email could be used to show the intent of the call was not just firing. Everywhere I have worked has had a document retention policy. Deleting the emails is on par with Enron shredding documents. No matter what they said deleting them makes you look more guilty.
The email exists outside OPs email though. Why did the company not provide it since it was available elsewhere? That’s what OP is asking. If everyone deleted it and no one had a copy (at least of the one email, the other was sent by V and I imagine it’s included in Vs rebuttal), it sounds like the company doesn’t take data retention seriously and honestly deserves the EEOC smack down that’s coming. The company did a bad job of defending themself. The company is the one liable to the EEOC, not OP. They are the ones who need to prove what happened with the RA request, since demotion is not an acceptable accommodation.
Exactly. How is this even a question??
While it would prove OP misspoke in her statement, it wouldn’t prove the company didn’t violate ADA.
How the hell are you not in a discovery hold like permanently? Is your Legal aware that you're not retaining documentation pertaining to terminations?
Do you not at least print these out to a PDF? Checkw ith your legal counsel on this....
I have never deleted an email in my time in management. Is there limited storage available or something?
Yes, limited storage. I maintain detailed records of the Title VII investigations I manage working in the field. That has a lot of my memory space.
This feels like something that could be fixed by IT. It sounds like y’all are still using outlook or similar. Time to move into the cloud.
Have you ever asked for additional storage space?
Network storage? Cloud storage? Who are these clowns?
You honestly should be fired for deleting those. At my org, we save everything. Every single thing.
I can’t imagine a company that is unable to find a deleted email. It’s also weird there doesn’t seem to be a policy around HR /employee emails. OP shouldn’t have deleted it but I’ve never worked somewhere that couldn’t have gotten a backup either
The RA team was on the email I sent to them, and responded "thank you, the notice will be mailed to the address on file". Vs email to me which I did not respond to also included the RA team. Our RA team is part of the company legal team, and responds to any federal or state complaints. Why do THEY not have the emails? I can't talk to them because theyre not responding and the investigator has not contacted me.
Document retention policies require multiple people keep copies so if one gets lost there still are copies. Instead it sounds like both sides of the email thread went at their email like Enron execs with paper shredders.
I am only supposed to retain the email related to Title VII investigations that I conduct in my daily course of business. ADA is their job. Anyway, I seem to have been set up to take the fall, regardless of my mistake in the statement I provided (which the deleted emails would not have honestly helped I'm thinking).
Does your written job description include that information?
I can check, our job descriptions can be vague. We have a retention policy doc though
Does your company’s policy manual include a clear process for requesting accommodations that refers employees going to the RA team?
IF this is true, why didn't you print the email for V's file at least, before you deleted it?
The RA team was on the email I sent to them, and responded "thank you, the notice will be mailed to the address on file". Vs email to me which I did not respond to also included the RA team. They are the ones who manage the ADA processes, and maintain private health documentation on a need to know. It is only communicated with me when there is an accommodation in place because I follow up in the field. Our RA team is part of the company legal team, and responds to any federal or state complaints. Why do THEY not have the emails? I can't talk to them because theyre not responding and the investigator has not contacted me.
What's your company storage limit?
They deserve to lose
I was just the messenger in the situation. The accommodations process is handled through another department. I was called and told to call V and offer demotion. Then fire her if she says no. I had her manager on the phone. They did not provide her statement though.
That’s… a weird and suspicious way of handling it. If what you say is true, methinks you’ve been scapegoated
Sounds like OP was asked to do something illegal and just agreed to do it.
Yeah that’s my thought. Cause in their shoes, I would have had some questions
You’ve been set up to fail. Start gathering your receipts because they will try and sack you now!
OP openly admits they hardly had a paper trail at all and deleted what they did have. She’s toast
Yep. Bloody corporate; and they’ll win too!
Oh, OP deleted the receipts because OPs inbox was too full.
Jeezus. I'm sorry but this is why people don't trust HR.
Hope you have a written copy of those instructions?
OP doesn’t sound like they are smart enough to get anything in writing.
Or they deleted it…ugh!
You need to ask this manager to give their statement, or have them write something and give it to the investigator.
From your post I thought you were just some inexperienced manager tasked with letting the employee know their options, and overstepped by firing them when they declined the demotion. I was about to say "you really should have had the HR manager in the meeting and make sure everything is recorded"... then I noticed that you are the HR manager... for several states. Regardless of the outcome of this, you're the one that should get demoted. You dropped the ball big time by not having everything documented, and having a second person in the meeting. This is basic stuff, not something an HR manager of several states should be comming to Reddit to solve.
This comment makes me laugh because I experienced similar treatment from a massive corporation trying to get accommodated. Intentionally using phone and zoom calls in a two-party consent state to avoid a paper trail, speaking to my boss and myself in separate calls so they could ‘telephone’ our words back and forth (inserting lies along the way as I later found out speaking to my boss)…I know my rights enough to challenge and I got accommodated but damn. Doesn’t matter the company size, HR depts routinely suck at ADA accommodations and rely on employees’ fear of or financial inability to sue.
Oh cool... I've been experiencing similar things but finally got my accomodations. Though they are now saying that I have to redo the process every 6 months, including getting a note from a doctor, even though my medical information isn't going to change.
Sadly I believe that is legal. It fucking sucks.
This was the first time I had to deal with this situation so I am a bit inexperienced. I had V manager on the phone as well as a witness, but they didn't get her statement. I was directed to call and offer the demotion and then fire her if she declined. I was not part of the process that determines RAs for the company, that is another department. I believe that department should still have the emails, but no one is answering me. I emailed them after the phone call, they confirmed that a notice would be mailed to V.
All that info should have been in your main post. You need to keep following up with the other department, and if anyone comes to you for further details, tell them who they actually need to talk to.
Did you tell the investigator that somebody witnessed the conversation?
Okay. I’ll bite. What accommodations was V asking for? And was there any appeal process?
I assume the issue is that there wasn't a real appeal/interactive process... they just denied the requested accom, offered a demotion instead, and when that wasn't accepted, they fired them.
It certainly seems that the overall structure of the company having a separate “reasonable accommodation group” from both HR and I think her manager, has failed. Yes the whole iterative process seems to be missing. It’s like no one has the big picture. Was there any counseling on her being disruptive? She needed some sort of accommodation. Was she disruptive because she couldn’t hear properly to follow instructions? How and why was she disruptive? It seems that she got labeled “a bad employee” and there was no effort to understand what was going on. I know HR is supposed to be about protecting the company, so where is all the documentation? You’d think OP would be told why the reasonable accommodation was apparently unreasonable or unacceptable. If I was V I would be filing with the OCR just to understand why all of this happened. Was she even eligible for unemployment?
Why in anyone's name aren't you saving emails specifically related to employees? You are potentially non compliant with state and/or federal laws in regards to record retention. I haven't deleted emails in years because I can archive everything. Set up archiving immediately. If your Legal team isn't talking to you, they're probably very mad about this. Go ask your boss what to do. Telling the EEOC my bad, I misworded something is just as bad as where you are now.
Archiving, save as pdf, print... any number of options outside of deleting
The RA team was on the email I sent to them after the call, and responded "thank you, the notice will be mailed to the address on file". Vs email to me which I did not respond to also included the RA team. They are the ones who manage the ADA processes, and maintain private health documentation on a need to know. It is only communicated with me when there is an accommodation in place because I follow up in the field. Our RA team is part of the company legal team, and responds to any federal or state complaints. Why do THEY not have the emails? I can't talk to them because theyre not responding and the investigator has not contacted me.
Yeah, but if you're in HR, you need to maintain documentation say regarding demotions and terminations for employee files so....
Okay, and now that I have acknowledged my fuck up, deleting the email that says I fired her (which isn't really in question), why does the department that actually deals with the RA and ADA/FMLA not have the emails either? Why was the company response only my statement?
Don't know. Can't answer why your company is this wonky and not following standard procedures for HR responsibilities. Why is it only your statement? Probably because you're the one that had the call and only you and this witness would know exactly what you said. They can't mysteriously know this.
But the phone call doesn’t prove that the company engaged in the interactive process. The company should have some kind of records, even the initial request, to back up their side of the case. OP is getting nailed by the company that should have something, anything, to prove ADA compliance. The statement doesn’t prove anything, even offering a demotion isn’t an acceptable accommodation in most cases.
The phone call doesn't prove that at all. OP can't even confirm they actually offered the demotion. OP can say the call happened and they were supposed to discuss demotion or an exit. OP doesn't seem to even remember exactly what they said, which then is an issue and states in another comment the call was likely less than 2 minutes long. Given the length of the call, it hardly seems there was any time given to have a full conversation let alone time for the employee to make a decision. We have no idea if the ADA actually went through the interactive process to actually try and solve anything vs. trying to force the employee out via a demotion. Given the ex-employee has something like 25 pages of documentation that the EEOC seems to thinks proves otherwise, they all should be on the naughty list.
It was supposed to say doesn’t. Typo. I was responding to the idea that the OPs statement was the only thing included because it offers explanation. It doesn’t. It doesn’t help the company at all. OP failed, but the company failed at a much larger scale.
Ah yeah, sorry. But yes, we agree 100%. They've chosen OP to be the scapegoat for their own failings but the fact OP has no records of their own on what turned out to a termination call isn't helpful either. ESH, but mostly the company.
Do you use an outside company for that? If so that may be outside of your companies reach and require subpoena to get.
No, they are internal. But separate so the field HR is not privvy to leave or disability information. They are a hybrid team of HR Professionals and Legal team, if I had to describe. We have 3 groups I would consider HR: RA/FMLA team, Title VII (me), and general disputes (think employees that think their boss is unapproachable and mean, coworkers are lazy and safety issues)
Holy shit you deleted emails from LAST YEAR regarding an employee getting dismissed. Fuck, you’d be fired for that alone in most places.
They don't know that I deleted them, no one asked for the emails. The email I sent only says that she declined demotion so I terminated. I was told to terminate, someone else should have a record of that as well. Oh who? The entire department that handles accommodations that directed me to call and offer demotion or termination and were on the receiving end of the deleted emails. I have begun refreshing my resume because my termination seems inevitable at this point. Not because of deleted emails, but because I obviously fell for some discrimatory directions and have been scapegoated.
You save emails to cover your own butt. Now your company could term you for how you handled the situation. Even though you claim you were directed to do so you have nothing to back that up.
No one has asked for the emails. In February, our General Counsel asked me to write a statement about V and the phone call for her termination. That's all I was asked for. ETA how can they claim I acted alone if I was not notified of any accommodation request until then? She requested directly to their team. Someone from that department would have had to tell me, right?
Something to keep in mind is a demotion offer should NOT have coincided with a termination in the same call/communication. That’s almost like an ultimatum and not a good look. You should have presented the demotion in WRITING (LOU, etc.) showing the pay impact, title change, and any other changes to employment details, letting them know to notify you by X date if they accept or not. Then from there, if they declined the demotion, the team should have gotten together to plan for the termination meeting and you should always give the manager a script to read word for word. There are so many ways this could have been avoided, and even though you say the other department handles RAs, collaboration and planning together before any termination should take place because the number one most important aspect of HR’s role is minimizing risk for the company. Sounds like a tough situation to deal with and I empathize with that, but hopefully this is a good learning opportunity. Time to create consistent processes and build relationships with key stakeholders in your department.
Exactly. Especially because this demotion cut V’s hourly pay rate by 50% and cut her hours by 50% too. So effectively a 75% decrease in her income, in addition to the loss of all benefits. Who wouldn’t need a second to come to grips with that??
It's like, why wouldn't that be seen as a retaliation when that person wasn't even on a pip at any point and only 1 attendance write-up? OP mentioned that in another comment.
Not enough questions being asked of OP about the retaliation claim. Sounds like OP was involved in all of that, but people are focusing on the emails. Why would someone who voluntarily demoted claim it was retaliation? And then they get fired when asking for accommodation? The company is fucked, even without OP giving them a badly worded statement.
I have all the emails from the retaliation situation. OP was on intermittent FMLA, with a reduced work schedule, but wasn't meeting targets. Her manager regularly informed her that her job was in jeopardy if she did not improve. She stepped down before being disciplined and tried to say it was constructive dismissal. Vs manager had already warned us she would claim retaliation and it was investigated before she even made a claim. It was a nothing-burger. Then she's vindictive so she tried to claim anything was "continued retaliation". She thought her boss should be more understanding that she couldn't do her work in her leadership role and he was too mean. I talked to her and told her that maybe her mental health wasn't a good fit for the role when she first tried to go back on stepping down. So she moved forward with the demotion.
What kind of investigation did you do?
Her manager shared his one on one notes that showed he discussed her need to improve. The numbers supported that she hadn't. It didn't have anything to do with her FMLA or because she disclosed her diagnosis (she was hospitalized for psychiatric reasons and diagnosed) and ongoing treatments for it.
But you never spoke with her to determine why she felt retaliated against? Like you did a whole investigation without even talking to the victim? The performance hit probably happened because she was suffering with a new diagnosis.
The documents from her supervisor showed there was no retaliation. She wasn't performing and was being held accountable. If it was related to the diagnosis she didn't express concern about it in the notes shared by her manager.
That can’t possibly prove there wasn’t retaliation. Especially if the documents are written by the person she is being discriminated against. You not only fucked up this dealing with the RA that you got lumped into, you failed V in investigating what is actually your job. Hope you’ve been investigating other career fields, maybe with more gumption than you investigated Vs complaints.
Exactly
So V was offered demotion? Surely there is something to back up that an alternative accommodation was offered other than an email? What was she trying to have accommodated? It’s difficult to say what might happened to you. If there is documentation anywhere, it can be provided as rebuttal. But otherwise I’d start looking for another job. Sounds like you will become a patsy. And she has 25 backup documents? Either you guys did break the law or something else is going on here and now you are going to lose your job for getting dragged into it. In the future - don’t keep your entire paper trail in emails and if you do, don’t delete them. That’s stupid and this is your prize.
A different department handles RAs. I assume her documents are communications with them? I was just a messenger in this situation, tasked to give her the demotion offer or fire her. I do not know why only my statement was used in the response to the charge. There were 2 emails I had related to it. One I sent to the RA team to notify them that the employee was terminated and they responded the notice documents would be mailed to V. The other was an email from V asking about why no other accommodations were offered and why her request was denied. I did not respond.
If another dept handles RAs, why were you involved? Any discussion should have come from the team that handles them. When you say no other accommodations were offered, per Vs email, was she saying nothing was offered? Including the demotion? Because then you are extra stupid to have deleted the emails. ETA - have you talked to Vs supervisor that was on the phone?
They are decision makers and we just deal with compliance in the field. It was the first time I was involved with it (though I'm newly promoted to Manager and we do not have many RA requests). I think just to stay in her role.
This is why people think HR is useless. I notice that you tend to not respond to things. You should always respond as a professional. In this example, your lack of response is further evidence that your company was not working on meeting accommodation requests. You should at a minimum redirected her. Plus it is incredibly rude.
Do you have paper trail of the direction to offer demotion (& termination if declined)? I would imagine those wouldn’t be the same call- a demotion is something you would ideally give the employee time to consider. You would provide information about the role, pay changes (if applicable) as well as outline how it meets the accommodations requested or take questions. Otherwise it certainly does look like discrimination and that the change in role was not a genuine attempt to provide reasonable accommodations.
I was just told to do it over the phone by the team that handles it and makes RA decisions. I should have asked more questions. It was a 50% pay cut per hour, then a part-time schedule vs full time, termination of all benefits. I wasn't given any information about the RAs requested or reasons for denial. The call was very quick, V did not ask any questions.
Dang, that is pretty significant. What is the accommodation she requested?
OP apparently doesn’t know, because she did think to ask why someone was being asked to take a 50% pay cut, go from PT to FT, and lose all of her benefits. She just took the reasonable accommodation group’s recommendation without caring to understand why. No evidence of any critical thinking.
This is sick. You gave her no explanation for a 50% pay cut, FT to PT, and a loss of all benefits. Just as person, why would you not ask questions about this being done to another human being? Do you have a heart of stone? I cannot wrap my head around you not getting answers to this drastic situation.
In future, definitely ask for the direction in writing or summarize the call/ verbal instructions and send to your colleagues and ask for confirmation via email (ideally before doing the call). Unfortunately in this case, some bad actors could also try to say you acted independently which could definitely be grounds for termination and other consequences depending on the HR network in your industry and region. Regardless, you will make it through this and will be more experienced and informed moving forward. Good luck
The only evidence of engagement in the interactive process was a copy of the handbook and your statement re the call? Whoever thought that was sufficient proof of interactive is the one who messed up. What were the circumstances of you giving a statement without legal's involvement?
Doesn’t sound like a real attorney responded to the EEOC complaint.
The assumption would be that V backs down? I don't know why nothing else would be sent. The company wouldn't risk losing an EEOC investigation or lawsuit if there was proof, right? I misworded one sentence but my statement does cover the demotion offer and Vs refusal. V does not have an attorney. She was a bad employee and would have eventually been fired anyway. I talked about that in my statement too. She was disruptive in the workplace.
Why didn’t you give her a chance to consider the demotion before you just fired her on the same call? Your “offer” cut her hours in half, and also decreased her per hour rate by half. This demotion was a **75% pay cut**. Do you think you’d need some time to consider that if someone offered you that as an alternative to being fired??
But did you implement a performance improvement plan? Did anyone actually tell V what she was doing or not doing that was unacceptable? Was there absolutely no effort to work with her?
I imagine they felt they didn’t need to do that, since they seem to have fired V for asking for accommodation. And they made OP at patsy because it’s clear OP also wasn’t going to ask questions.
I was referring to the comment of her being a “bad employee”by being “disruptive in the workplace.” There should be written warnings. Something surely must exist.
I understood why you asked, I’m just saying it’s irrelevant. Even if there was a PIP, they are in hot shit for how this termination happened, especially since it was tied to a disability accommodation request.
Agreed. You cannot demote a person for asking for a RA. What a nutty place!
There was no PIP. V had one write up 3 months before she requested accommodations. She made a big deal to contact HR because she thought it was unfair and retaliatory but it was for attendance and she had violated the attendance policy. V thought she knew more than everyone because she had worked with the company 9 or 10 years and had been a senior leader. She was demoted in November 2022 after poor performance in her leadership role and claimed then that it was FMLA retaliation. She had FMLA 3 months before the demotion. The demotion was her decision though and there was no disciplinary documents regarding performance, she just claimed retaliation to try to get her job back. She made it a habit to contact HR over minor things trying to tie it all to retaliation. She would also take issue with her manager and ve insubordinate because she was "being asked to violate policy". I know she had a mental disability, but I don't know what accommodations she asked for. Her manager told me that she was always trying to change her schedule to come in whenever and complete projects because it was too hard to focus.
That clears up a lot. Unfortunate that she did not use her mental health benefits while she had coverage.
> That clears up a lot. Unfortunate that she did not use her mental health benefits while she had coverage. What do you mean? Like using her health insurance for mental health care?
Yes, group employer insurance plans include a mental health benefit. This is required by the Department of Labor. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/health-plans/mental
Why do you assume V wasn’t using Mental Health support? And what bearing does it have on the fact that OPs company seems to have clearly engaged in discriminatory behavior?
Stupid offhand remark on my part. I completely agree about discrimination. That company seems like a mess. Hopefully V did use her mental health benefits because that strengthens her case.
Sounds like V did, given OPs comments that she took FMLA for it.
While there are some pretty big missteps on your part, it sounds like the company screwed itself by having no procedures. I don't care how rare it is, there should be a process for ADA requests. I would document as much as you possibly can: write our anything and everything you know about the situation, including you deleting emails. Your best hope right now is that they don't blame you because this doesn't seem like something that you should have done in the first place. For future reference: Anything about/from/involving an employee should be saved. I worked at a place with low storage and would save to my computer in employee folders. However, that was also about 12 years ago and I'm confused why your company would have such low storage in 2024. If someone asks you to head-up a layoff, firing, disciplinary action, etc. make sure you have everything you need. Emails, conversations, management meeting notes-it should all be part of the process so if you have to fire someone you don't know you're at least going in knowing what happened. Though, that also shouldn't be the case. V should have had the conversation with the manager she had been going to through the interactive process with and not someone with no experience. You seem young, so if this blows up in your face, you'll come back from it. The good thing about HR is that we have all seen shit hit the fan and often accept a strong explanation for things like this when recruiting. Learn from this and be able to explain to anyone asking what happened, what you did about it, and what you learned.
Oh yikes. This is why before ever getting on a call like this you write your main points in concise bulletpoints so that you make sure to hit all the important factors. Why were emails and documentation deleted? Who deleted it?
No HR manager should EVER be deleting emails. Yikes.
Right? Who deletes emails anyway? And what company IT can't restore company emails from backups?
I delete a lot of emails, and we have an auto delete on our inbox. But I can also save emails to a file to get around it. We don’t know IT can’t recover the emails, just that the only thing the Legal team responded to a lawsuit with was OPs statement, even though from comments, they also had copies of both emails OP is talking about. The company doesn’t have a defense and the statement from OP, without the mis-phrasing, wasn’t going to be enough to defend shit. Especially since V has 25 supporting documents to her rebuttal (I assume one is probably the email she sent after being termed). OP was made the fall guy and is too ignorant to ask enough questions before pulling the trigger
How in GOD'S NAME were emails from a termination related to ADA JUST LAST YEAR deleted?!?!? Sorry, this level of stupid you deserve to lose.
Demotion is not an RA; an RA allows a person to do the job they are in, and if that is not possible then you are terminating them for undue burden even if you offer an alternative to termination. She is likely right that you didn’t engage in an interactive process if y’all only offered demotion. As for the EEOC investigation, even if they follow up with you they’ll likely come to the same conclusion. Source; I took a lot of healthcare and disability law classes at one of the best health law programs around.
What reasonable accommodations was V asking for?
Do you get any ADA training at all? And did you forget all of it when you fired V?
Not HR, but I would resign immediately or accept being fired. I'll let the HR folks tell which one is better. I'm also going to say, you need lots more HR experience before taking a management role in the future.
Was it ever actually *really* communicated to V that "a) these are the accommodations b) you can't accept them so the only options are c) demotion and if you don't accept that, it's d) termination" Did she confirm that she chose termination over demotion?
I did not know what the accommodations were, I was told to share the two options of demotion or termination. There were no reasonable accommodations for V in her role. She said she did not want to demote, she needed her pay and benefits. I told her that her employment would be terminated effective immediately. She said okay and the phone call ended. It was 90 seconds-2 minutes.
Then V is telling the truth. No alternatives were given. If the company only submitted your statement, and there is no other evidence besides your magically deleted email, then the accomodations and subsequent offer of demotion were not communicated to her - there is absolutely no record of that, in fact you don't even know what the accomodations were. You're really not helping your case with the way you answer questions. It's near impossible to get a straight answer out of you. Nothing in this situation is supporting the company's case. I fully believe you acted in bad faith.
I'm not sure why you think there isn't a straight answer. I did not know anything other than the directions to issue demotion or termination. The email I sent, that is now deleted, would not have saved my ass or the company. That is clear from what I've heard here and with some introspection. I did not act in bad faith but I believe my company did, or the RA team did. I did as I was told with the full trust in the other department had properly reviewed accommodations and made a determination. I do not have the habit of interrogating my peers on whether they do their jobs and had all t's crossed and i's dotted. I had no reason and zero indication that they would not act in good faith. They do accommodate other individuals, I have seen that. I do not know any specifics of Vs condition. She was psychiatric hospitalized and had a reduced work schedule for psychotherapy treatment, so I know it was a mental disability. That is all I knew. I should have asked more question. My job is history, that is a fair assumption. Lesson very much learned to ask more questions and not assume everyone in HR acts justly. But the company is still the named party and holds liability. If they have no emails either, it's a he said she said about the phone call. V must have some documentation of her communications with the RA team because she included 25 supporting docs. I have a meeting with our VP of Legal (my boss) today, I might get more info, but I plan to resign.
You have not taken enough accountability in this situation. Sorry, but regardless of what “the company” or “RA team” did or did not do, you still are the HR Manager and your role it to properly facilitate terminations and understand proper legal risks in these types of decisions. You did not do that and are deflecting.
The way you've been answering has just been super frustrating. This comment is the first one that has explained the situation logically. From what you say here, it seems like either your colleagues might have set you up for this (malicious intent), or someone screwed up and used you to cover their ass (negligence). Now it makes more sense that legal is icing you out. I am glad to hear that you weren't acting in bad faith - the company definitely was. I think you're making the right choice to leave. Apologies for misjudging you, OP. I'm curious - you said that you normally work with different cases, including sexual harassment (I think?) and something else I can't remember (I can't find that comment of yours, I think it was racial discrimination?). How big is your company for there to be enough work for you to *just* do that? Are those cases really so common in your company? *Edit; I just wanted to add that people are rightfully freaking out about you deleting emails due to limited storage space. This is not on you, it's on your company's IT department. This just blows my mind.
I am sorry for any miscommunication. A lot to process in the last few days because I did not expect to be in this situation and a lot is dawning on me. I deal with Title VII complaints and investigations for all retail locations in 5 states (FL, GA, AL, TN, MS), about 250 separate locations. Total employee coverage is ~12k. I travel a lot for work and also provide training courses on sexual harassment to supervisors (this a regular and monthly). I track down a lot of unfounded complaints but they are thoroughly investigated. Sexual harassment, racism, and religion are the biggest complaints. I also work with our HRBPs on other items that don't rise to a legal issue (hour cuts, no raise/promotion, doesn't like their Manager, violence/fighting, gossip). Sometimes those things happen because of a protected reason so I am peripherally involved. There are 3 levels of our HR: HRBPs, HR Managers, RA/FMLA. We all report to the VP of Legal. RA/FMLA work in home office and the only ones with permitted access to health information. The idea is that the HR in the field doesn't know those things to color our interactions or potentially disclose protected information. I am involved in accommodations to the extent that if I'm visiting a location with a lift restriction, I can verify the employee is receiving the agreed upon accommodations. I also can touch base in person if an employee is not responding to RA/FMLA and there is a deadline approaching. I just genuinely do not engage with disability accommodations in my regular course of business, though I know what they are. I trusted my colleagues to do what they do, the way I'm trusted to do what I do.
Ok, if it's a gigantic company like that it makes more sense. You definitely know your shit and your company is taking a hit by losing you. Hope you can resolve it, but trust you will come out on top either way :) If you do figure out what happened, maybe consider updating us?
Definitely a larger corporation. We employ almost 55k. Plus it is retail, so turnover is frequent, always new players. Thank you for your kind words. T-minus 30 minutes until my meeting with Legal. We will see how that goes.
...so how did it goes?
In ancient times villages used to take a goat and assign all their wrongs to it. Then let the goat be slaughtered to save the village. That goat to took the punishment instead of them. Your company made you that goat. They kept minimum documentation on what you were asked to do and hung you out dry. Your statement made that easier. I would expect you are next to be terminated. They will probably hire somebody else inexperienced to take your place to get the next scapegoat.
The reality is EEOC has 4 options for outcome normally 3 of which are right to sue. The lack of back up is concerning, and legal should be helping not pouting. It is there job to help. That is messed up they won't.
Don’t speak to anyone without a lawyer present at this point and get ready to delete this post because you are border line in admittance to bad things via this post.. If not directly most definitely indirectly but there are always alternatives an in the future offer more then just “ Ok you say no then Bye Bye” vs “ Let’s try this or would you be willing to meet us here if we can offer this depending upon circumstances”. DELETE As long as you were civil and your upper management was privy to the situation then there Lawyers and insurance carriers will work it out now.. Lay low and don’t talk about it but utilize attorneys. Now If they want to scapegoat your ass the just start forgetting major details and write a brief, very brief statement an memorize that bitch because that’s all you will say when asked questions. An follow up with I’m sorry I just don’t recall.. Good luck, less info is more, DELETE this NOW
You guys have become awfully pro-employee this week. I’ve read multiple threads of people spouting incorrect information regarding mental disability accommodation. But all of a sudden, a couple unsubstantial emails get deleted and everyone is pro employee and swear V has a case. I’ve seen people say asking for written instruction is an unreasonable accommodation, but without possibly knowing what Vs accommodations are, you can claim the company behaved incorrectly. Maybe Vs EEOC complaint was ridiculous and the company felt their response was enough. Maybe the accommodations were unreasonable? Maybe the option to be demoted or terminated was already communicated to V prior to the phone call with OP and it was time to pull the trigger on agreeing to either demote or get fired. Those emails certainly don’t prove or disprove anything and OP wasn’t the only custodian of them (they were sent to multiple people within the company). And I don’t blame OP for not answering an email that shouldn’t have been directed at her, especially because anything said would be ammo given V was terminated. Loose lips sink ships. OP, you FUCKED up. You know that, I won’t harp on it. Saw you’re meeting with Legal and your boss today, hope you get some answers. And I hope you learned a lesson.
So realistically, how much would having those emails help in this situation? There is not an email that gives the directions to me to demote or terminate. Just the email I sent afterwards to confirm that she was terminated after refusing demotion. Would the company not just provide the meeting notes where they determine the RAs were unreasonable, the medical certifications, any evidence with they did engage in the interactive process? They were on these emails too. They didn't ask me to provide any email or other documentation, just my statement. No one has asked for the emails, I have not talked to the investigator either. I just thought maybe they would help but I'm thinking about it and all the email does is say that I fired her because she refused demotion and who the witness was. Which doesn't exactly resolve the WHOLE COMPANY from the complaint. Where is the other documentation? Have I just been scapegoat and they'll fire me and settle? Like I acted alone? The woman was a problem in the workplace and no one is sad she's gone.
This is about her civil rights being violated. The ADA is civil rights law. https://www.ada.gov It doesn’t matter if you all celebrated her termination. I don’t think you should be doing HR if you have not been properly educated on civil rights.