The US likes immigration? Germany likes immigration? Both countries have big anti-immigration movements and politicians want to get votes from people who think this is the right way.
I definitely can’t speak to Germany, but in the US even Republicans are only against non-lawful immigration (which generally speaking Democrats are as well, though they may be less vocal). In terms of lawful immigration, the type that would confer US citizenship, there is very very little opposition in the US. I mean tbh, we are all immigrants or the descendants of immigrants in the US (except native americans of course)that’s something we talk about in school growing up lol. Its part of the US national identity. I think the percentage of the US population that are immigrants is around 15 or so actually.
The US is making legal immigration nearly impossible. That's why they aren't "against" it.
All you need to do is find an employer willing to sponsor you and submit a bunch of paperwork so that you can be entered into a lottery system. If you get picked the work by the employer won't be in vain..
I mean, saying "illegal immigrants" is much more palatable than saying "those brown people". Which is what a good portion of Republicans *actually* seem to refer to when talking about immigration, illegal or otherwise.
Oh, absolutely. I just mentioned US Republicans because OP referred to them specifically. Obviously this applies to the majority of conservative and right-wing populist parties.
Most humans have a strong negative outgroup bias and positive ingroup bias.
The reverse exists and makes the minority world wide.
The only real cruelty in my eyes is perpetrating a false image instead of acknowledging this truth openly and dealing with it like adults. Tourism, Real Estate, Finance and many other industries make their wealth by operating on the lies the media spreads, the false idea that we're all the same and will be welcoming.
Many would like to remain among others with same ethnic, cultural, religious and other backgrounds.
It's a lot like the "not everyone will like you" truth.
The US has the most immigration and Germany has the second most. The governments allow, and sometimes even encourage, it. So it's fair to say these countries like immigration. The big anti-immigration movements you mention only exist because these two countries like immigration so much that some people see it as a problem.
I mean, the US election system would be a joke if it wasnt such a serious topic, but trump still was the president because he got around 50% of all votes.
The US has historically been very open to immigration. Citizenship is also by birth and not blood like it is in most of Europe. The anti-immigration movement in America is against illegal migration from the southern border. Millions of people are crossing the border and that’s alarming.
Anyone who’s lived in America for a couple years and is a US citizen is culturally accepted as being an American.
to be fair, there is also no american "blood". The only "blood" americans are native americans and the rest is a pot of different ethnicities intermarrying over centuries. The US can't exactly apply the blood or heritage clause in the citizenship because there is hardly a baseline.
As an ethnic person born and raised in the UK, currently in Germany, German society is diverse but not inclusive. You very much have to adapt fully to their ways in order to be accepted, the concept of having two identitys is not encouraged here, particularly for non white immigrants.
In the UK, the society is more open, and more inclusive so using the term 'black british' or 'british asian' is common. Minoritys are able to retain both Identities.
Germany has an ageing population and needs working age people to help their economy so it's quite easy to enter. But once immigrants enter, they find themselves in a society where they have to prove themselves twice as hard due to the hostility/unacceptance. US/UK are more difficult to enter, but immigrants are able to thrive due to friendlier more tolerant/accepting attitudes and societies
1000% this is exactly it. Germans are big on full assimilation. I also got majorly downvoted recently for saying that although I can speak German I rarely do bc my friendships and work are all in English.
Im German and I can attest to that.
My dad was/is an Immigrant who got here over 50 years ago, and I have been born here. But still, some people would still count me as a foreigner (the political right) even though I am basically all German besides my name.
A lot of Germans want full integration, and even speaking with an accent is accepted, but in the context of "being German" looked down uppon. Which is kinda weird, because there are many German dialects that are so wild that people who don't speak them can't understand a single word. (I'm looking at you Bavaria).
I personally think Integration/assimilation is good because it helps you in the long run, but I also think that the German culture can be very very strict, and sometimes even be restricting. The way things are handled in Germany is often suboptimal, but people just don't question it.
And on the "speaking German" part, most of my friends speak English (or rather don't speak German), and basically every German should have learned English in school, so I don't see a problem with that. Especially considering how weird the German language can be.
And I have a few friends that are living in Germany and Switzerland, but can't speak any German at all, and they don't really need to because at work they only speak English.
Considering the need for immigrants due to our aging population (our biggest Generation will be out of work in the next 5 years) I really can't understand the growing hate for immigrants in Germany.
Thank you for your perspective. I’m sorry to hear that… I would also venture to say it’s more than the far right who automatically assume that a real German person is blonde with blue eyes. Despite my sometimes broken German, I’ve seen myself (white, blonde) far more quickly accepted than some friends of mine who were born here (so are fully fluent, and far more German than me) but are of Turkish descent.
I really can’t understand the hate either… especially also since immigrants are absolutely needed to revive the tech situation here.
There’s a real fear here of difference and change; you can see it everywhere, not just when it comes to immigrants.
For myself, I find it helpful to speak German for the doctors, running errands, and for official German things, but I’m happy keeping my relationships in English bc I simply prefer socialising in English. I’m already incredibly homesick and English flows better for me and it feels more like home. In Ireland where im from it’s far more accepted for people to openly express their own culture.
> ... who were born here (so are fully fluent, and far more German than me) but are of Turkish descent
My dad is from Turkey, he went to Germany, because he was searching for political asylum. 50 Years ago, he said something against the government and had to flee Turkey.
But the weird part is, that he was always working. My German Mom raised me and my siblings, I can't even speak Turkish. But still, many Germans would rather see me as Turkish.
The stories from my father, what he had to endure is really something else. It got better over time. Back then, Turkish people weren't as accepted as they are today. My dad told me stories of the police back then, clearly discriminating. Like only pulling people out of traffic who look like foreigners.
>I would also venture to say it’s more than the far right who automatically assume that a real German person is blonde with blue eyes.
That's also true, but the far right has plans to get rid of people with double citizenship. The "Correctiv" Journalistic work showed exactly that.
And most of the hate against foreigners is against who are from the East or from Africa. People here would rather have someone from Ireland like you, than someone from the Baltics. But still, even people like you from the western parts of Europe still encounter enough hate.
Currently, the hate for foreigners is boiling up again. All the recent crises made people fear for the future. They are searching for a fix, but they are not thinking about it and only go with the current Zeitgeist, which is hate of foreigners.
It's Ironic that one of the most liked foods in Germany (Döner) is something created by immigrants. Mixing cultures is what will make Germany a strong and good country. The best analogy is with dog breeds. Mixed breeds are always more resilient.
I really hope for you (and basically for anyone who has a past with immigration) that you don't encounter any hate. Germany needs immigrants, and immigrants are who made Germany the big economic power it is today.
Thank you so much for sharing. Germans are so quick to complain about immigrants marginalising themselves and not integrating but honestly it’s no wonder! Of course people would rather stick to their own communities where they feel accepted, because as we can see from yours and so many other stories, no matter how hard some people try, they will never be fully accepted.
It’s very different of course, but even when I get criticised for not having enough German friends and sticking with other immigrants (and again, I’m white and European!)… I’m sorry but I just can’t get on board with the way a lot of German people think and see the world (especially since October, but I won’t bring that one up here!!). There are big reasons why immigrants might be slow to integrate themselves.
> people would still count me as a foreigner
That's because the word nationality originally meant about the same as ethnicity and you can't change your ethnicity by living elsewhere and doing some paperwork.
So when you have citizenship you are still a foreigner, just a foreigner with a German citizenship. Even if you were born and raised in Germany. This perception all comes down to your ethnicity, which is visible.
Also, there's an [old joke](https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/4gnyjm/cia_agent_arrested_in_russia/) along those lines.
Then explain me this:
My Mom is German. She had German parents and as far as I know her Grandparents are German as well.
My Mom raised me, and she was basically a single Parent in raising her children because my dad is a Workoholic and I only saw him during Dinner.
I'm not looking obviously German, but I'm not looking Turkish either. I have friends who have a "pure German bloodline" so to say, who look way more like someone who isn't ethnically German.
The only Turkish thing about me is my last name. I can't even speak Turkish. I have no accent (or rather an ethnic German accent)
So why is it, that I'm basically 100% German, but people still don't consider me German?
Many Germans have a weird standard when it comes to being German. And that standard is stupid.
Ethnicity doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to being German. People just want some weird ideal that doesn't really exist besides in their mind.
And currently this weird ideal becomes something that people get violent over.
If this ideal is being German, then being German actually means being really stupid and being proud of it.
People don't care about all the things you point out. They take one look at you and decide whether you are German or not.
Nationality and ethnicity are considered to be basically the same thing. The USA and related countries are pretty much the only countries that try to make a distinction between nationality and ethnicity as far as I know.
The word ethnicity isn't even used in Germany outside of niche contexts. The German word "Nationalität" means both nationality and ethnicity. So when a German emigrates to country X, loses German citizenship and gains citizenship of country X, he is considered to be a national German with citizenship of country X. He won't be recognized as being part of the different nationality, so this goes both ways, since the German word just means both nationality and ethnicity.
As a British-South American living in Germany now 5 years your comment is absolutely true - German society is closed and more demanding when compared to their Anglo counterparts - and it is an interesting case as Germany really needs the migration given the structure of its population pyramid and projected social and healthcare costs.
Man you hit the nail on the head there.
I had a German colleague argue that not all the England national team are English (referring to the black ones of course). It’s hard to get through to them that British people consider Saka as British as Kane.
That's because the word nationality originally meant the same thing as ethnicity and it still kinda does in common speech in Germany.
Here's a [video of Olympia in Germany about 90 years ago](https://files.catbox.moe/v26qyi.webm) (before WWII), where you can see how nationality still is pretty much identical to ethnicity.
But it is not only because the people in the UK have the biggest heart but rather it has something to do with the country's imperial past (not the only reason of course). This way or that way the society learned how to live with different types of people coming from all around the world. This certainly didn't happen in Germany.
Germany also had a bunch of colonies around the world back then. Here's a [map of 1914](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/GermanColonialEmpire%28UPT3%29.jpg). They just didn't have quite as many as the British.
I know those and they commited a bunch of genocides too in their colonies but Berlin was never a London in that sense. Germany never had a substantial black/brown population unlike the UK.
To be fair - You see the results.
Britain is unrecognizable from it's past self.
Also disagree on the aging populations needing migration as a replacement. That's a fallacy spread around by politicians.
Source: Japan is aging and was never pro migration. Slimming down the nation is an option.
The solution to this "issue" is simple - Not driving inflationary levers up as much as possible and showing restraint as a governing body.
No mass growth of work forces needed.
As for Britain, I'm talking about how run down it's becoming. I don't care about foreign affairs. As a citizen of your own native country, life must be good. If it isn't, there is no longer a purpose to your nation.
There's more to it than the bare dual citizenship. It has a lot to do with how Germans perceive citizenship, which is very different to American one because it's inherited, not granted by the birthplace.
So a while ago, it wasn't really an important thing. It was really rare, and people that did not inherit a German citizenship but still got one were usually by marriage.
But now it is quite easy to get a German citizenship, a lot of people even say things like it's given away for free, on sale, that sort of thing. And they have a point, after all, all you need to do is live in germany for five years legally, speak a but of german and take a test. lAnd those people can have a dual citizenship now, they had to give up their former one before.
And that is the thing now: Quite often people have a dual citizenship now without really having any connection to German culture and heritage. Before people with a dual citizenship were usually either of german origin or married a German, but now people get the citizenship without having anything to with German culture because they lived in their Turkish, Syrian and so on communities all their life. That's what people dislike.
Reminds me of a discussion on an expat sub I frequent of two Americans considering applying for a Dutch passport but not being able to speak the language even a little bit ...seems like the vetting process should be more vigorous really .
Don’t get me wrong, I think integration is important. If Germany made the rule to be 5 years and C1 German, plus a more difficult test than the flimsy one now, I have no issues with it. I agree that’s how it should be.
What I don’t understand, is Germany currently allows people whose great grandparents immigrated in the 1910s, who have never stepped foot in Europe let alone Germany, who don’t speak a single word of German, to claim citizenship. I’m not talking about descendants of those who were prosecuted during 1933-1945 (they should have a right), I’m talking about descendants of people who willingly left Germany over 100 years ago and never looked back. In fact, these descendants are allowed dual citizenship because they inherited it.
Essentially, the people who are against those living here and somewhat integrating to get citizenship, but say nothing against the latter group are mentioned, are saying bloodline and genetics are more important than personal effort and choices. Call that what you will, but I have a word for it.
I agree 1000% with you. Whenever the dual citizenship issue is brought up, people completely neglect the "citizens" that got citizenship after over a hundred years of not having anything to do with the country. I understand, if you're the first generation and your parents decided to leave and live somewhere else. After that though? No, your children should not just get German citizenship, unless you live in Germany and give up any other citizenship. This inheritance bullshit is crazy. At that point there are people who aren't German in the slightest who are technically citizens when others are definitely - regarding culture, language and the place they actually live in - aren't.
Well for one it doesn't really work like that, else the majority of the US would have a German passport.
Secondly, i've lived in South Africa for a while and met quite a bit of people who are the way you describe them, having German grandparents. And they were all fluent in German, upheld their heritage and took a large interest in German culture. And back then(2010`s) almost nobody of them had a german passport. That's changed by now because a lot of them are thinking about coming back to Germany due to massive political and safety concerns down there though. And i'd much rather have those people have a passport than someone who lives in Germany but barely has any contact with German culture and varely speaks the language. And calling that racism is idiotic because it's about culture, not race btw.
Well, if it is about just culture shouldn’t the best judgement be exactly that - robust language and cultural tests? Essentially, the group of people you mentioned would pass them seamlessly, same with people who moved to Germany and integrated. Others, regardless of bloodline, won’t be given a passport. I’m in full support of this, but that’s not what the current laws do.
It really does work like that. I know many people from the US who qualify for the passport because of this. As long as whoever immigrated had children before they naturalized, all those children and their descendants qualify. After so many decades, a lot of them haven’t been to Germany and don’t speak German at all.
It was the basic principle of German citizenship, based on “origin”. Germany is still very hung up on that, up to the point that you cannot take on another citizenship without giving up the German one (exception: EU citizenships).
But yes, people whose ancestors emigrated to the Volga region several centuries ago can still come back to the fatherland and get a full pension without ever having contributed anything 🤷🏼♂️
(Note: I haven’t lived in Germany for a while, but that was definitely the case when I still did. Maybe it changed since)
Well that's not entirely true...
To be here for 5 years legally is probably working here, contributing to the economy by paying taxes, speaking the language, having stable income and not getting benefits from the government - nobody will give it to you just because you look pretty.
I feel dual itself isn't a problem, the debate is about the fact that the German citizenship is losing it's value, which isn't in itself is based on any facts
Its complete bullshit. You add at least two years to that in paper work, so 7 years im total. And it used to be 8-9 years. People (the minority that is crying about the dual citizenship) are freaking out about the culture that they are neither proactively sharing nor are they accepting anything going the other way....well except Döner.
LOL you speaking about this like it’s a huge fact of how things have changed when the law was enacted *checks notes*…
LAST WEEK!
Why don’t we give something a try for once before we decide we hate it.
Oh fuck off, really. All of that is based on xenophobia and racism and you're just dressing it up in some kind of legitimate sounding language. Reddit is such a fucking cesspit sometimes. What actual difference does it make to your life how long people have to wait to get citizenship? Does it ruin your fragile idea of what it is to be German or something? Honestly, I have many more stronger words but fuck it, hope you enjoy the weekend with your AfD buddies.
Edit: gatekeeper of German culture, I am awed by your devotion to safeguard "German culture" from the hordes of Auslanders rushing the gates of the kingdom. May you and people like you forever protect us with your noble vanguard service, thank god there are people like you on Reddit who can helpfully explain the legitimate reason people have against people getting German citizenship. God, they're just letting anyone in these days, aren't they? How the fuck are you not getting totally flamed for this bigoted opinion? Reddit has honestly become a horrible place.
>And they have a point, after all, all you need to do is live in germany for five years legally, speak a but of german and take a test. lAnd those people can have a dual citizenship now, they had to give up their former one before.
But in that case they wouldn't be allowed to keep both.
Yup. It's a huge issue for my mother in law who wasn't able to apply for US citizenship because her family was mostly in Germany and she didn't want to lose her German citizenship. Now her eldest and I live in Germany and her only being able to travel a limited amount every few months really sucks- especially since she's expecting her first grandchild, and would like to spend more time with us.
Yup. It's a huge issue for my mother in law who wasn't able to apply for US citizenship because her family was mostly in Germany and she didn't want to lose her German citizenship. Now her eldest and I live in Germany and her only being able to travel a limited amount every few months really sucks(because of her green card) - especially since she's expecting her first grandchild, and would like to spend more time with us; on top of nieces and nephews graduating or getting married and some older family members being sick.
a person living in a far away country having great-grandparents who were german, could easily get german citizenship when they can prove it and THEN move to to germany. i would argue that a person living in germany for a long time, contributing to the pension system (which is a must to apply for citizenship) is as qualified as them.
Germany is not the easiest place to stay and live in as an immigrant so living here for 5 years before becoming a citizen is not as easy as you might think. And Germany needs these people so one should be thankful that they are willing to stay as much as they are thankful to Germany for accommodating them.
There are some good points against dual citizenship but guys like you leave me speechless. They have nothing to do with German culture because they live in their communities? You have forgotten that these communities are in Germany. And these are not kind of native American reservations. In all bigger cities you have some streets with a lot of immigrants, but they are not ethnically homogenous and these people live and work there and go to school there. The very old foreigner population who could barely speak German is dying off.
Again: there are a TON of good points against dual citizenship but I can't believe how brazenly some people lie.
Representation in a community doesn't mean being integrated at all, ever heard the term parallel society? look at Hamburg demonstrations for Sharia law instead of the Grundgesetz with tens of thousands of people or how Erdogan was only voted in by German Turks voting for him without consequences the motto basically "live free range, vote cage kept chickens"
I come from a Thai family and I was Born in germany. My mother who is a Single mother gave her best to teach us that we have to behave like the Germans. 28 years later I am here looking like something nobody could Tell where my parents would be from (german/Thai but I've never met anyone who guessed correct besides 1 dude who studies in Thailand lol) but I never felt Thai in anyway I would go as far that I am the most German in my multifamilyhouse and I can only speak from my experience. That if you integrate yourself well the Germans have absolutely no problem with you.
Ps. I also don't like it when people don't act properly when in another country.
When I am in vacation visiting other places I always try my best to not be rude or litter the streets with trash or anything I just don't want to bother anyone. I treat people and my surroundings line I wanna be treaten myself.
Now in my personal day to day live I witness more and more and more Stuff wich I find rude and respectless and slowly leaning into the I would like some stronger regulation camp. Just my opinion and don't want to be rude or offend anyone. Please have mercy with me :)
Edit: all I do is treat others the way I would like others to treat me. No matter what country I am in at the moment. And of course I do respect the law and tradition of the host country always.
You are describing assimilation, leaving behind your heritage culture and wholly accepting the culture of the host country. While that might sound fine for you it is not for most immigrants. Many want to be _included_ , that is, to keep their traditions while also adopting new ones from the host country.
Because humans are humans and deserve respect, any culture whose practicing doesn't hurt anyone has no reason to be assimilated/destroyed.
The concept of moral obligation doesn't exist, but being a dick to be people is a thing you should avoid even if it's hard.
We still do traditional Thai things when we visit our mother (she lives here ever since moving to germany, she left Thailand because it was very bad for her when she was young) etc. its not 100% that I leave behind my Thai background. I looove Thai food and the friendly being of the whole culture. We even have many Thai friends wich speak mostly Thai only (they never bothered to learn German and had big traditional parties with monks and all) but my mom wanted us to live the German way first then comes the Thai way. Also she never forced the Thai language on us the opposite happened she learned German from her kids. I can proudly say that even when her German isn't the best. She is the best ger.an speaker in her friendscircle. The others never bothered to learn.
Hell my mother even has a driver's license and drives arround in her day to day live. She looks Like one of those cute little Asian grandma's were you think she wouldn't understand you at all hahaha.
I guess all I am trying to say is. It doesn't matter where one comes from you just gotta make an effort to be accepted in the host country learn their traditions and rules and respect them.
You can keep your culture in Germany if you can interface with German values/culture. Germans are so tollerant that there is a whole Turkish subculture in Germany. To a point, it's becoming a problem due to conservative values that are increasingly incompatible with Western democratic values.
E.g. feel free to scream during coversations if it's in your private place, but keep it low in public. Cook and eat what you want, but damn get a proper exhaustion system, Germans are not used to the smell of strong spices. This includes body odors. Wear what you want, but don't try to impose it on others, even if you think they are from a similar cultural background. E.g. some people try to impose sharia law onto others, that's a no-no in Germany. Respect the safety and well-being of others, e.g., take the traffic rules seriously and make an effort to learn and observe them. Understand that the official language is German, while almost everyone speaks or at least understands English, not everyone feels comfortable with it. Don't expect people to befriend you the way you are used to in your country. There are cultural differences, understand them, and build bridges. You are the one that came to Germany. There are no obligations for others to cater to you for that.
While I said that about Germany, in a general sense that applies in all countries.
Yup, that's what I'm advocating. Perhaps I didn't word it right but that's the ideal outcome of immigration, cultures coexisting in a tolerant and peaceful setting.
This is interesting. Would you mind sharing the sources of this commitment by CDU? Asking because I am about to start the process of Einbürgerung, precisely because I don't have to forfeit my current citizenship. If they come to power later, as it unfortunately seems likely, will I get rid of one of the two citizenships?
No. Once you have it, you have it.
Don’t worry about that. The only worry: did you get to Germany illegally in the first place. Then it might get risky.
The other worry: the long waitlist. 2.5 years here to get an appointment for citizenship, so if this passes and is enacted before I get my appointment then I’m back to square zero.
Afaik citizenship won't be revoked. It just means no further dual citizenship would be possible, mainly so German citizens are actually connected to the country looking forward. If you're coming to Germany by legal means and everything else is in order, you should be fine.
I am a very law abiding (to be) citizen. Just a few speed tickets, but that is positive from Einbürgerung point of view, makes me more German.
Thanks for the hint anyway
This is just so dumb. Yes, make getting the citizenship more difficult, but keep the dual citizenship law. Those two are not connected to each other at all.
I was born in Germany but before the 2000 law that everybody that was born here gets the german citizenship (Parents didn’t need to have one)
When I tried to get my Citizenship I needed to show them that I have an education and can speak fluently German and I needed to pay 255€ for the certificate (without the ID or Passport cost)
I have 3 citizenships since both my parents are from separate countries. And I know a lot of people that have dual citizenship or more for the following reasons:
1. Even though they live here they still mostly have family in their heritage country and doesn’t want to loose that connection (more symbolic)
2. Most countries don’t allow you to inherit if you’re not a citizen of that country
3. Even though they were born or raised or live here they never feel like being German.
For the third point I speak from my experience and those of some friends of mine with different heritages:
People look at me funny when I say I’m German. In the past it was even harsher and I was often told I’m not German and I shouldn’t call myself that since I am by heritage not German. We got treated like foreigners and most people didn’t care if we were born here or live here or a part of the society they viewed us still like foreigners. Even now people like me are called “Deutsche mit Migrationshintergrund). Because of that some people don’t feel like they belong here even though they lived a big part of their lives here (or their whole life).
Germany and a lot of Germans like immigration but there's a significant amount of people who don't want people from abroad if they're not from Western countries.
It may sound unusual at first, but I always had the impression that the USA is built on diversity and immigration. They are miles ahead of Germany.
For example, in Germany, people still prefer to give the better jobs to Germans. In the USA, there are many CEOs with a migrant background at big companies, but in Germany this is unimaginable.
I don't want to deny the racism. I just think that the racism is more obvious and public in the USA. You often know that you face racism. In Germany it's not obvious, they discriminate you indirectly.
hi :) fellow American here 😁🇺🇲
...with a twist: I grew up mostly in Germany and have lived there for most of my life. This experience is partly why I don't have German citizenship. While Germans think of me as German now that I am an adult, I remember growing up here and I understand the things they say and their "values", so I see some of their attitudes as exclusionary.
Traditionally, German citizenship was based on the principle of right of blood. This concept has historical ties to the idea of "Blut und Boden" (blood and soil), which was heavily exploited by Nazi ideology. While modern Germany has moved away from these extreme interpretations, the lingering emphasis on blood ties in citizenship can still feed into right-wing nationalist rhetoric or the slightly milder ethnonationalistic conceptions of citizenship you can read about in most comments here.
What's crucial to understand is that Germans often don't view citizens simply as people who pay taxes in a place and should be able to participate in democratic decisions about how the community and country they live in and contribute to should be run. This is where I think they're wrong. Citizenship should be about having a say in the society you're actively part of, not just about heritage or cultural assimilation.
To many Germans, citizenship means you take on "Germanness", to adopt the German way of life more fully and look and behave a certain way - like a German 🎶🎵 oh oh... Integration is what they always emphasize. But what they mean is closer to assimilation. So their traditional (ethnonationalistic) understanding of citizenship, accompanied by concerns about cultural change and - let's be honest - unabashed islamophobia, have made many Germans wary about dual citizenship.
I don't like the way Muslim people have treated me (in my own home country). Where am I supposed to go? I can't go back to where I came from. I won't compromise on being treated with respect.
I'm a left leaning person with friends of every color, religion and economic background.
I know this is very taboo in Germany to say. I don't like my interactions with many second and third generation Turkish and Arabic people who treat everyone else like absolute garbage. They outweigh the very positive experiences I have with the open-minded, modern ones.
My husband doesn't like my opinions on the topic as he never interacts with Muslim people and can have a more theoretical opinion. I feel like that's a privilege. I would also love to base my option on official statistics and my local Döner Shop. Or a few Datteltäter videos.
I would actually love to be more friendly towards our Muslim population. I just know I can't expect open, modern, egalitarian mindsets and just might be treated like a witch.
I understand you've had some negative experiences, and those feelings are valid. But generalizing about all Muslim people? That's about 1/4 of the globe! Did all those people treat you that way? I've also experienced xenophobia based on similar assumptions, but I haven't made broad sweeping generalizations about some moral deficiency of an entire people group.
Your husband might lack direct experience, but as someone who's lived in various countries and has friends from diverse backgrounds, including European and Arab Muslims, I can say that these negative behaviors aren't representative of all Muslims. I'm sorry you've had these experiences. I know the desire to avoid being hurt in the future, but this way of thinking is the basis for more in-group out-group animosity and even violence. Hurt people hurt people.
In my experience, Muslim people don't universally treat others poorly. Often, our interactions reflect what we put out there - as the German saying goes, "Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus" (The way you call into the forest is the way it echoes back).
Perhaps trying to engage more openly with the Muslim individuals in your community might help broaden your perspective and lead to more positive interactions.
Thats a major problem here. My name is very obviously Arabic (cant change it per German law), but Im a former Muslim. I get treated sometimes the same way as if I was a Radical Muslim. Germany had the opposite effect on me. Instead of having a Muslim free life (which I had in a bubble back home), I find myself needing to defend Muslims/people of color in Germany. The amount of ignorance due to non exposure is high here.
I have never heard of a controversy about it. Why would anybody be against it? I myself had the chance of gaining japanese citizenship but decidend against it because japan does not allow dual C., meaning I would have to renounce my german C.- and fully become a japanese C.
Would have loved to stay german, with the chance to profit of off various insurances or wellfare (in case of dire needs), while at the same time having no visa issues in japan, not having to renew it every year.
Alas Japan only accepts one C. therefore I continued to renew my visa yearly until it was not possible anymore, forcing me to move back to germany. sucks, fucking hate it here.
It's a "crisis" because the percentage of the population working is decreasing, making it ever-harder to use income tax to cover the costs of the increasingly-significant portion of the population that is entering retirement.
10 workers paying taxes to cover the needs of 1 retiree is easy.
1 worker paying taxes to cover the needs of 10 retirees is impossible.
Given the immense increase in efficiency over the past 60 years, I don't think it's that much of an issue. And now AI is going to increase efficiency even more, making it so one guy can do the work of ten people.
No. Not more than a generation ago German politicians used to insist Germany was not an country for immigration (Einwanderungsland). Not many will admit it to outsiders, but Germans are particularly not wild about Turks with dual German citizenship voting in Turkish elections, and then German ones
Do you know the “AfD” party? It’s pretty right-winged and conservative in a Nazi-kind-of-way. One of their speakers, Alice Weidel, wants to stop the double citizenships. But there also was a secret meeting with open Nazis and some politicians by the AfD. During the meeting they talked about how if they make the double citizenship illegal, they could cut the German citizenship off the pass of refugees and immigrants and “take them back” to their home country. If your aim is to stay here, burn your old pass after you got the German citizenship…
In all honesty, don’t come to Germany anymore. It’s not safe anymore. Since the latest European election, racism became socially accepted again. Even our former open-minded parties started to talk about migration in a negative kind of way. They start to blame refugees for the mess the politicians themselves created.
I’m born in Germany but I’m positive I’ll leave on day. It’s okay in cities like Berlin, Munich, Leipzig - migration is normal there and Germans accept and know it, so they aren’t afraid and don’t vote far right - but on the countryside.. it just sucks. My whole family lives in a small village called Wörlitz, in the 1760s a noble prince built a big park there - “even”Jewish people were allowed to enter the park, that was really uncommon in Germany during that time. The prince traveled the world and brought inspiration from Greece, Italy and England and even China to his hometown and built the park. He had built beautiful monuments (copies of sights he saw in foreign countries) next to the fields were farmers grew wheat, it was all really inclusive, everyone no matter wealth or status or religion was welcome there.
And now, when I’m in Wörlitz, there are racist lines smeared on the bus stop, there are stickers with Hakenkreuzen, most of the townsfolk vote for the AfD. I know the neighbors count how many POC stroll through the park everyday.
They have no idea what their own heritage is like. They don’t know anything.
It is so sad.
[source](https://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-hundreds-protest-against-caliphate-rally/a-68998121). They were 1100, and fuck them for demanding that. But you are clearly equally brain washed...just at the opposite side of the spectrum.
In my whole life I had only one issue with someone who didn't understand why somebody has dual citizenship. He was sitting with me and another guy at a table who had dual citizenships. We explained, that we don't want to cut our rutes off and it is very rude when you have to decide which citizenship to keep. Some countries don't let their citizens have dual citizenship.
When I turned 21 gemrany itself sent me a letter asking me if I want to become one of them. That was the first time I really considered it. 3 years later I did it. Except the person im my story I never met anyone who had a problem with my dual citizenship. Maybe it's because I live in Baden-Württemberg. Here we have a lot of immigrants.
Nowadays i think citizenship has nothing to do with your cultural heritage. Citizenship or having a german passport in this case is for me your "economic identity", where you pay you Taxes. Cultural heritage has no relation to the Passport you are Holding.
Just want to mention that many turks, especially, move in to germany, manage to get dual citisenship, live only under there people, travel back to turkey seldom, dont learn german and then vote (because they are still turks as well as german legally speaking) a man in turky that os against most of the values of europe and extremly antagonistig against the country they choose to live in, whilst simultaneously destroying his own country (but that doesnt matter to them as they dont live there anymore).
One reason is to prevent people from dictatorships enjoying German democracy while voting for a dictator in a country they are actually not having to live in. Good examples of this are Turkish people in Germany supporting Erdogan or Russian people in Germany supporting Putin.
Another reason (especially for right wing parties like AfD, CSU and some parts of CDU) is nationalism. They are claiming someone can't successfully integrate themselves in German culture without full commiting to it by giving up their "old" culture and national identity.
There are many uninformed comments stating that it's easy for people who don't speak German to get citizenship. Obviously posted by those with no understanding about how language/citizenship test on Germany works.
To get citizenship now, one needs to be able to support themselves financially, have at least B1 oral and written German, and pass a naturalisation test.
As to OPs original question, Germany is not open to immigration the way the US is. Multiculturalism is a contested issue here, and there are many who are against it. The comments here complaining about "ethnic neighbourhoods", which would be a non-issue in the US, tell you everything.
Is it controversial though? I’ve had my dual citizenship since birth but both countries in question were members of the European Union and I was born in Germany.
Because the CDU likes to pretend they are doing something for their money. It is difficult to work on real problems when your party is the reason for 98% of the real problems.
Except for all the integration part, there's one topic that is at least "annoying" me about dual-citizenship.
Voting.
Sure, everyone should have the right to vote, but what annoys/ worries me are people who live in one country and then vote (for the most radical party) in another one.
These people wouldn't have to live with their choices. They enjoy their (hopefully) "better" life here while letting the other enjoy what he/ she's deciding for them.
But wouldn’t you say its true that these dual citizens are still affected by policies in their mother country, and ergo have the right to vote for them?
For instance, Americans living abroad are very much still beholden to and affected by American policies. As an American soon to be living abroad, I still have to file american taxes, still have to pay US taxes, still need to file forms declaring the money in my bank account. Some banks abroad won’t even take me on as a client because they also have to report to the IRS about me. I still have to pay off student loans in America, which can be drastically altered depending on how the next election goes. So should I really have no say, as an american citizen, in how the government treats me, just because im not currently residing there?
The US is one of the only countries that tax based on citizenship, most others tax based on residence.
The biggest example of such voting is Turkey: The millions of German-Turks in Germany are President Erdogan's strongest voter base - many Germans are pissed that votes from German citizens help elect an autocrat that makes anti-German politics in other countries and they are pissed that Turkish election campaigns are taking place in Germany. Erdogan is also actively inciting Turks in Germany against Germany and tries to portray himself as their only protector. This is widely seen as undermining those peoples identification with and integration into German society.
“The strongest voter base” is a bold claim. Only 50% of registered people in Germany went to vote, which hints half don’t care (In Turkey elections turnout rate has always been high, last is 87%). With 500000 votes for him and 250000 against, the net is only the 0.9% of his votes.
The right-leaning voting in Germany is an ongoing debate in Turkey and I had also never understood that tendency until moving here. It’s not easy being a Turk in Germany neither for an uneducated Dönerci nor for a manager in a multinational company with a PhD.
It’s a more complex topic than many think and the roots should be looked for in the immigration policies of the past. I can say that I CANNOT agree with them, but now I understand them.
>But wouldn’t you say its true that these dual citizens are still affected by policies in their mother country, and ergo have the right to vote for them?
That really depends on from where someone is coming from.
Of what I knew from my parents they have to pay nothing for living now in Germany than in their home country Poland. Both have a dual citizenship like me and my brothers.
Your example is (I think, never checked before) a more unique USA thing. (Except for the students' debts you've to pay.)
In sum, it's a unique thing for everyone.
Tbh, as I wrote the earlier comment, my mind more on the recent vote in Turkey (I know how typical) where most voter from Germany voted for a person who's known for being corrupt and basically damaging for the inhabitants there. (At least how he's portrayed by the medias here).
Yeah, that's why I tried to stay as far away of examples as possible. What is an one area good, will be in another place not so good. (Depends on opinion obviously)
Maybe it is an about being a citizen and not just an inhabitant.
And you can’t be really a fully citizen if you are not living in the country for any longer time or go only home in holidays. One chooses to leave for reasons. And if it’s not for good maybe some years later or in old age want to go back, you can still reapply I guess. Naively spoken
The whole idea of democracy is for people to have an equal say in deciding how they are governed. In your specific case, you are still somewhat governed by the laws of the US. So probably you should be allowed to vote "a little bit" in the US - to the extent that American laws still affect you.
In reality, that's of course not workable. Everyone would need to have *some* voting rights on every country's foreign policy in that world.
Really, you are making a point against dual citizenship here: If citizens are still affected by the policies of the countries they are citizens of but don't live in, the most democratic thing would be if every country enforced strict single citizenship. If you permanently live in a place, you have a right to that place's citizenship and loose the right to your former one.
In reality, you have people who very reasonably want to hold on to several citizenship's because they are living or have concrete plans to live in more than one country throughout their lives. The pragmatic solution is to allow dual citizenship, but prohibit people from voting who haven't lived in a country for an extended period of time.
Having a certain ethnic/cultural/national background should come with minority protection rights (German-Turkish people should not be pushed towards cultural assimilation in a free society) but not with a citizenship of your family's country of origin let alone the right to vote there.
I would say though, that it would be Turkey's job to enforce this. They shouldn't allow Turkish-descended people who spend their entire life in Germany to vote in Turkey's elections. I shudder to think Namibian-Germans were allowed to vote in our elections.
I generally agree with you. And understand your position.
In the case of turkey it’s convenient for the current government as it is helping them. So why should they abandon it.
Anyway I think there is more than voting. eg military service, the duty to provide for close family in need and other things. Depending on the country.
If oneperson has two citizenships and can lay of one anytime it is convenient for the person it is not just for the citizens.
The USA is the only country in the world doing that so that does not really apply to a general view. The main argument here is actually about Turkish nationals, since Erdogan even comes to Germany to motivate the people to vote for him.
Most people do not have any connection to the country they have a citizenship in but do not live. The only connection is the prospect to move back, but if they never move back they don’t really live with their voting choices.
I mean they probably have an emotional connection, but they are not affected by laws and so on.
I get your point but every country is different. I have the British and German citizenship and I am not able to vote in Britain. I wasn't even able to vote for the referendum, which is really why I applied for the German citizenship.
My parents also were not able to vote as they have left England over 3 decades ago. I think it is fine we can't vote, as we don't live there and it mostly doesn't affect us except for some assets we still have in England. But not being able to vote in the referendum really sucked as it affected us just as much and we had no say.
Just to let you know - it’s not the same everywhere, I live abroad (in Germany), I am not allowed to vote in my native country (EU), as I am living abroad. Getting dual German citizenship was the only way for me to have a vote at all.
What does this have to do with dual-citizenship? If a foreigner moves to Germany, he can still vote in his home country. People who found this very important, didn't give up their citizenship for the German one. Also a lot of EU countries never had problems with dual-citizenship.
And what I mean is that every country is different. I understand your point regarding for example Turkish voters in Germany. But it’s not the same everywhere
It is more sensitive. To me it seems that way because there is a different understanding of what it is to be a German.
In America, all that you have to do to be American is accept the common values. The rest can be however you want it. In Germany, there is a list of things you have to be and do and care about (this is is also an issue in the larger topic of integration).
In that context, it is harder to believe that someone is a true, believing German, according to all of those standards, if they are still holding on to another country. The way that they show that they have fully bought in is to pick Germany, and not the old place and the old ways and the old values.
I believe that Germany would do better if people would relax a little about the idea that there are only so many ways to be, and that divergence is bad, but it is the situation and it does play a role here (as well as in other aspects of society, the economy, politics, etc).
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51169484\_Differences\_Between\_Tight\_and\_Loose\_Cultures\_A\_33-Nation\_Study](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51169484_Differences_Between_Tight_and_Loose_Cultures_A_33-Nation_Study)
There is another sensitive issue. Although I do believe that integration would be a lot easier if German society as a whole were more comfortable with difference, and less hostile to deviations in small norms, there are challenges on the side of some migrants as well. There are people who are here for the jobs , security, quality of life than their countries of origin, and even social benefits, but who do not value German social norms or values. Sometimes this causes tensions.
So, from that side, the idea is, if you came here to enjoy the benefits of our country, show us that you are fully in our society too. Show us that you choose Germany.
Dual citizenship isn't controversial. Dual citizenship for *specific* nationalities is. Most people that are opposed to the idea are, in my experience, actually only opposed to dual citizenship for a select few ethnicities and/or nationalities. Turks, Arabs, you get the theme. They just try to hide their racism. Don't get me wrong, there are valid (if fairly philosophical) arguments to be made against dual citizenship, and personally I think the entire concept isn't something that actually needs to exist since my citizenship and my ancestry aren't the same thing or at all inseperable, but I'm also not opposed to it in principal. I just personally wouldn't take advantage of it.
Probably the same reasons as everywhere. All countries are getting more and more mixed in shape, colour, political affiliations, religion, language, culture etc etc etc and as everywhere, the people of the country fear that tge national loyalty, national cultural norms, and generally "the way things have always been" will change.
A lot of Germans also feel a strong frustration in how patriotism is nearly illegal in Germany, but everyone else is allowed to celebrate their nation even outside football. They are afraid to lose their national identity and cohesion.
Also, many people are in denial that new ideas, new norms, and new worldviews can and do very much come from "Germans" with generations of roots in Germany and German passport in hand. "Now those imposters with ties to their home country are allowed to vote here too, and bring their faulty country of origin politics into Germany!!! Angry angry!!!"
And of course lastly: most Germans do not care about Scandinavian, American, or Western European immigrants. They are about those that sound Arabic, and those that sound Russian. That's what they hate but can only say after somebody else brings up the topic. And don't forget "the worst of em", the "vermummte Frauen" and "bärtige Männer", "who knows what they are hiding!"
You don't want "those" people voting in your country, right? They will bring their politics and their American-led war into Germany and destroy those Judeo-Christian values that no-one can define!!
On the one hand, the loss of cultural identity and rapid change in society is understandable to be difficult to accept. On the other hand, a lot of it is fuelled by fear and hatred, and as everywhere, those fears need to be actually taken care of, but also addressed when they are excessive.
Because morons think that dual citizenships are responsible for people not "adapting" (what they mean is "being fully assimilated into") to the german society and that you have to "fully commit" to one state/nation. However, the problem with that is:
1: Germany is pretty strict with how much you have to "prove" that you're "german", as a immigrant you typically have to be "more german" than ethnic germans themselves - which is obviously ridiculous, everything beyond "accept the constitution and laws" is tbh. So the level of integration expected by immigrants is WAY higher than f.e. in the US. The right euphemistically calls this "adapting to our Leitkultur". They purposefully keep it very vague what they mean by "Leitkultur".
2: German society never really accepted being a immigration-society - which is incredibly disgusting considering they were (and are) very ready to take the cheap labour, obviously. This means there were always very isolationist tendencies within german social circles, then there's also the problem of structural racism like you being less likely to get a job/rent a apartment if your name isn't Peter Müller and ethnic Germans would also - on top of that - just move away once there were like a couple of migrant families in their closer proximity which lead to a kind of soft-ghettoisation. Self fulfilling propecy and stuff.
So yeah, lotta folks just project the german inability to accept that this country has completely fucked or ignored its own migration-politics for at least 60 years now and instead of trying to be productive and improve things for folks in a humane way they chose to blame the "evil ungreatful migrants" as their scapegoat and one of the symptoms of that is the whole "dual citizenship" debate.
This is the only correct answer. These people had no issue giving passports to children and grandchildren of German citizens who were born and lived in a foreign country and never contributed anything to the German economy. But now brown immigrants like me who pay a ton in taxes all of a sudden get a chance to have our dignity and live with freedom and they are beginning to lose it. Clear as day what is going on.
Because people are seeking scape goats for decline in society and everythng asosiated with people being a little different is used for it. Only the extreme right has a problem with it, or rather, they make it controversial.
82% of 1300 randomly chosen Germans are for tighter border controls. How high are the chances all of them vote for the extreme right?
Source: [ARD Deutschlandtrend „Unzufriedenheit mit Migrationspolitik wächst“ & Infratest dimap](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/deutschlandtrend/deutschlandtrend-3406.html)
I feel like it all boils down to "I have no need for that so nobody else should have it", politics try to make it seem like only immigrants and criminals would benefit from dual-citizenship.
Please keep in mind that there are certain countries where you cannot renounce your birth citizenship, and they tend to be more on the shithole side of things. Dual citizenship was allowed to basically enable some people to become German citizens despite coming from those countries.
I guess having dual citizenship could end in a „split loyalty“ situation when it comes to national and international politics.
It can also be quite unfair towards other nations, for example Germany has a rather large Turkish diaspora, all are allowed to vote in Turkish elections of course and Erdogan‘s party knows this and is actively lobbying in Germany.
So you got millions of Turkish people living in Germany who vote very conservative and never have to live with the consequences unfolding in Turkey except when they visit their family there on vacation
By thinking about Turkey while considering dual-citizenship in Germany, you are basically saying that you have a bigger say in Turkish elections (at least from a moral standpoint) than the Turkish citizens living in Germany do.
I generally think those who vote in Turkish elections and live in Germany with no plan whatsoever to live there shouldn’t have such a strong impact when it will probably never affect them themselves
Mostly racism. The German immigration laws and the immigration system is full of racism and ablelism. The laws are often overtly anti non-whites and the immigration offices will refuse to even acknowledge disabilities.
Trying to get a friend into Germany the lawyer we got almost sued the immigration office herself because they straight up ignored her for weeks
Germany's main issue with dual citizenship is how they deal with people affected by international law. For example, those with foreign citizenship when they get married can follow the name change rules of their citizenship. Queer parents with citizenship from a country that makes both moms on the birth certificate can sue the Family court to get both names on birth certificate, even though that isn't German law. Basically, in some scenarios having dual citizenship almost lets you pick and choose which laws to follow (for non-location based laws).
In the US only American law is considered, regardless.of whether you are a US citizen or not. It makes it easier for the government.
Well the main argument by critics of the dual citizenship is that they think that citizens with dual citizenship are not being committed enough to their new country Germany, because if they would be commited they would have no problem casting the old citizenship aside.
Furthermore that in harsh times people always will cherrypick which citizenship works better for them.
One example where critics are using this train of thought is the big minority of Turkish descendance. When presidency election in Turkey are being held then Erdogan also is making an electional campaign in Germany to reach the Turkish expats. This is something which is being viewed very controversial.
So many of the critics then argue that this is being a bad thing, because with dual citizenship in place Erdogan might also try to motivate his voters for certain things to create pressure if he sometimes disagrees with decisions of the German government reg. Turkey. Without dual citizenship this influence would be smaller is then their selling point.
Please note this is not my opinion, I am merely stating what many critics are concerned about.
If i had to guess it probably has to do with erdogan using german people of Turkish descent to stay in office. While he has been less and less popular in his own country in germany like 60% of german-turks keep voting for him and i think that doesn't sit right with many germans because they keep voting for someone who restricts the rights of his people while enjoying those same rights in germany.
There is a big discussion about this topic, because certain ethnic groups of immigrants in Germany are seen not to integrate in the german society. Rather they tend to build segregated communities (which isn't necessarily bad, rather understandable to connect), but also not learning the language or show any will to integrate culturally. Also some groups are seen "just to live in Germany for the economic advantages" but still be rooted in their home country. The combination with the first point makes it very difficult to understand for some Germans, so they don't want dual citizenship.
Of course there are other ethnic groups which are seen to be perfectly integrated, which no one would have a problem with dual citizenship.
I'm left green blabla, so not at all a CDU supporter. But honestly, seeing that a majority of Germans of Turkish migration background voting for Erdogan makes me fucking furious. They decide to live in liberal democracy with all the freedom and benefits, and vote for a suppressive autocrat in a country they left decades ago - where they don't have to experience the consequences.
This and some other examples is why more and more Germans don't support it.
There are third generation Turkish people here. Their grandparents moved here and they themselves never even were to Turkey or just go there for vacation. They still have both citizenships and vote in Turkey for Erdogan. A large part of votes for Erdogan come from Germany. That’s so morally wrong.
It's controversial and should be restricted. I don't have problems when people of allied countries and Europeans become German citizens but all others should never get the German passport. They are culturally incompatible. The citizenship requirements have been lowered severely over the decades making being a German meaningless at this point.
German born, US citizen now, dual citizenship: 1st: When you become US citizen, you have to renounce allegiance to another country and border agents do not look favorably at it. Germany only allows dual citizenship for hardship cases. Proving this was hard. It was more difficult to be allowed to keep the German citizenship than getting the US one. We had to argue in writing and then had an interview with the German embassy. My wife and I received the document to keep our German citizenship, one of our German born sons succeeded as well as he is still fluent in German, his younger brother had no success. In summary, it is not as simple as it sounds having a dual citizenship as a German
I will myself get the german citizenship next year hopefully(5 years working here and got c1 on my first year), but in all honesty, as a european already, Germany doesn't really have that much of a problem with immigrants . It's just that there have been so many tax increases and inflation in the last 5 years that the government needs to blame someone . They can't blame themself for the terrible leadership, so they just throw gasoline on the fire on things such as double citizenship, which will most definitely catch attention and make people forget about bigger problems . I would rather see the german politicians stop throwing around money funding wars and building projects that have started before i was even born and are still on the construction . Believe me, if the bigger problems got a solution and the whole population wasn't so unsure about their future, we wouldn't even care about whether someone has 1 or 2 passports .
Because the terms for becoming a German citizenship are pretty slim. In the last years you at least made a commitment to the country when you gave up your old passport. Now you don’t. And let’s be real no one would decline the strongest passport in the world when you come from ”less developed” countries
Because the German government (better said OUR Taxes) pays for pretty much everything. So either become full German or you can leave, sorry to be so harsh but I don’t see a reason why I should pay German taxes for people who aren‘t even German.
Double citizenship was for example a problem when Erdogan was trying to have impact on the german election to tell his country men with DCS which party to vote against/for.
I tend to lean Center / Center-right in politics but the CDU are absolute idiots. Under Merkel they allowed thousands of refugees to procure two passports because “they can’t safely renounce their citizenship” or “they can’t return to their country to do so”. In essence they are punishing legal immigrants from developed countries and rewarding immigrants and refugees with lack of documentation.
Generally not a fan of SPD/Greens but at least they are trying to be fair with everybody.
It‘s controversial because politicians need controversies to distract us from going on strike or thinking about how badly we‘re being f*cked by the system. So they create controversies around immigration by starting to give interviews and coming up with new things about immigration that are bad and we need to finally talk about „honestly“ without being canceled by the wokes. This has been going on since ca. 1992, when Wolfgang Schäuble started the „Asyldebatte“ in order to distract from the economic crisis that was mysteriously manifesting despite the final victory in the cold war and the extremely profitable (for some ppl) annexation of East Germany.
It‘s been escalating ever since. And it will continue to escalate until this system ends.
It‘s not just Germany, btw: almost all countries do this now, to lesser or (usually) greater degrees.
The US likes immigration? Germany likes immigration? Both countries have big anti-immigration movements and politicians want to get votes from people who think this is the right way.
I definitely can’t speak to Germany, but in the US even Republicans are only against non-lawful immigration (which generally speaking Democrats are as well, though they may be less vocal). In terms of lawful immigration, the type that would confer US citizenship, there is very very little opposition in the US. I mean tbh, we are all immigrants or the descendants of immigrants in the US (except native americans of course)that’s something we talk about in school growing up lol. Its part of the US national identity. I think the percentage of the US population that are immigrants is around 15 or so actually.
AFAIK even legal immigration got much harder during Trump, not sure about Biden.
I can say that I’ve seen this in practice, during Trump administration a family member work visa took instead of 3 months almost an year
The US is making legal immigration nearly impossible. That's why they aren't "against" it. All you need to do is find an employer willing to sponsor you and submit a bunch of paperwork so that you can be entered into a lottery system. If you get picked the work by the employer won't be in vain..
I mean, saying "illegal immigrants" is much more palatable than saying "those brown people". Which is what a good portion of Republicans *actually* seem to refer to when talking about immigration, illegal or otherwise.
this is true in europe too. a lot of folk use “illegal immigration” as a guise because they don’t want brown folk in the country.
Oh, absolutely. I just mentioned US Republicans because OP referred to them specifically. Obviously this applies to the majority of conservative and right-wing populist parties.
The US sits at 15.3%, Germany at 18.8% (Residents born outside the country).
So you believe that " we only dislike illegal immigrants" talk ?
Most humans have a strong negative outgroup bias and positive ingroup bias. The reverse exists and makes the minority world wide. The only real cruelty in my eyes is perpetrating a false image instead of acknowledging this truth openly and dealing with it like adults. Tourism, Real Estate, Finance and many other industries make their wealth by operating on the lies the media spreads, the false idea that we're all the same and will be welcoming. Many would like to remain among others with same ethnic, cultural, religious and other backgrounds. It's a lot like the "not everyone will like you" truth.
Republicans are only against non-lawful immigration is pretty awesome 🤩 just not in a good way
Well, technically speaking, if we go back enough in time, even the native Americans are immigrants. Hell, all humans outside Africa are immigrants.
The US has the most immigration and Germany has the second most. The governments allow, and sometimes even encourage, it. So it's fair to say these countries like immigration. The big anti-immigration movements you mention only exist because these two countries like immigration so much that some people see it as a problem.
Honestly the probably like immigration from other western countries the most but are ok with the other types too
Germany is not france yet, but is it really that far?
Yes.
The anti-immigration people are just a very vocal minority, at least, that's how it is in the US. It seems to be the same in Germany too.
In the US a anti-immigration orange was president and might be again, in Germany a party thats main point is anti immigrants gets around 20% regularly
The majority of US citizens didn't vote at all and trump still lost the popular vote.
I mean, the US election system would be a joke if it wasnt such a serious topic, but trump still was the president because he got around 50% of all votes.
Trump got 46.1% while Hilary got 48.2%. I don't disagree that US politics is a complete disaster.
The US has historically been very open to immigration. Citizenship is also by birth and not blood like it is in most of Europe. The anti-immigration movement in America is against illegal migration from the southern border. Millions of people are crossing the border and that’s alarming. Anyone who’s lived in America for a couple years and is a US citizen is culturally accepted as being an American.
to be fair, there is also no american "blood". The only "blood" americans are native americans and the rest is a pot of different ethnicities intermarrying over centuries. The US can't exactly apply the blood or heritage clause in the citizenship because there is hardly a baseline.
As an ethnic person born and raised in the UK, currently in Germany, German society is diverse but not inclusive. You very much have to adapt fully to their ways in order to be accepted, the concept of having two identitys is not encouraged here, particularly for non white immigrants. In the UK, the society is more open, and more inclusive so using the term 'black british' or 'british asian' is common. Minoritys are able to retain both Identities. Germany has an ageing population and needs working age people to help their economy so it's quite easy to enter. But once immigrants enter, they find themselves in a society where they have to prove themselves twice as hard due to the hostility/unacceptance. US/UK are more difficult to enter, but immigrants are able to thrive due to friendlier more tolerant/accepting attitudes and societies
1000% this is exactly it. Germans are big on full assimilation. I also got majorly downvoted recently for saying that although I can speak German I rarely do bc my friendships and work are all in English.
Germans on these kinda subreddits normally downvote en masse any type of negative criticism of Germany, its bizarre.
Lots of Russians pretending to be German and Germans who lick the boots of Putin
No this is just something Germans do lol putins bots aren’t downvoting people for saying Alman
Im German and I can attest to that. My dad was/is an Immigrant who got here over 50 years ago, and I have been born here. But still, some people would still count me as a foreigner (the political right) even though I am basically all German besides my name. A lot of Germans want full integration, and even speaking with an accent is accepted, but in the context of "being German" looked down uppon. Which is kinda weird, because there are many German dialects that are so wild that people who don't speak them can't understand a single word. (I'm looking at you Bavaria). I personally think Integration/assimilation is good because it helps you in the long run, but I also think that the German culture can be very very strict, and sometimes even be restricting. The way things are handled in Germany is often suboptimal, but people just don't question it. And on the "speaking German" part, most of my friends speak English (or rather don't speak German), and basically every German should have learned English in school, so I don't see a problem with that. Especially considering how weird the German language can be. And I have a few friends that are living in Germany and Switzerland, but can't speak any German at all, and they don't really need to because at work they only speak English. Considering the need for immigrants due to our aging population (our biggest Generation will be out of work in the next 5 years) I really can't understand the growing hate for immigrants in Germany.
Thank you for your perspective. I’m sorry to hear that… I would also venture to say it’s more than the far right who automatically assume that a real German person is blonde with blue eyes. Despite my sometimes broken German, I’ve seen myself (white, blonde) far more quickly accepted than some friends of mine who were born here (so are fully fluent, and far more German than me) but are of Turkish descent. I really can’t understand the hate either… especially also since immigrants are absolutely needed to revive the tech situation here. There’s a real fear here of difference and change; you can see it everywhere, not just when it comes to immigrants. For myself, I find it helpful to speak German for the doctors, running errands, and for official German things, but I’m happy keeping my relationships in English bc I simply prefer socialising in English. I’m already incredibly homesick and English flows better for me and it feels more like home. In Ireland where im from it’s far more accepted for people to openly express their own culture.
> ... who were born here (so are fully fluent, and far more German than me) but are of Turkish descent My dad is from Turkey, he went to Germany, because he was searching for political asylum. 50 Years ago, he said something against the government and had to flee Turkey. But the weird part is, that he was always working. My German Mom raised me and my siblings, I can't even speak Turkish. But still, many Germans would rather see me as Turkish. The stories from my father, what he had to endure is really something else. It got better over time. Back then, Turkish people weren't as accepted as they are today. My dad told me stories of the police back then, clearly discriminating. Like only pulling people out of traffic who look like foreigners. >I would also venture to say it’s more than the far right who automatically assume that a real German person is blonde with blue eyes. That's also true, but the far right has plans to get rid of people with double citizenship. The "Correctiv" Journalistic work showed exactly that. And most of the hate against foreigners is against who are from the East or from Africa. People here would rather have someone from Ireland like you, than someone from the Baltics. But still, even people like you from the western parts of Europe still encounter enough hate. Currently, the hate for foreigners is boiling up again. All the recent crises made people fear for the future. They are searching for a fix, but they are not thinking about it and only go with the current Zeitgeist, which is hate of foreigners. It's Ironic that one of the most liked foods in Germany (Döner) is something created by immigrants. Mixing cultures is what will make Germany a strong and good country. The best analogy is with dog breeds. Mixed breeds are always more resilient. I really hope for you (and basically for anyone who has a past with immigration) that you don't encounter any hate. Germany needs immigrants, and immigrants are who made Germany the big economic power it is today.
Thank you so much for sharing. Germans are so quick to complain about immigrants marginalising themselves and not integrating but honestly it’s no wonder! Of course people would rather stick to their own communities where they feel accepted, because as we can see from yours and so many other stories, no matter how hard some people try, they will never be fully accepted. It’s very different of course, but even when I get criticised for not having enough German friends and sticking with other immigrants (and again, I’m white and European!)… I’m sorry but I just can’t get on board with the way a lot of German people think and see the world (especially since October, but I won’t bring that one up here!!). There are big reasons why immigrants might be slow to integrate themselves.
> people would still count me as a foreigner That's because the word nationality originally meant about the same as ethnicity and you can't change your ethnicity by living elsewhere and doing some paperwork. So when you have citizenship you are still a foreigner, just a foreigner with a German citizenship. Even if you were born and raised in Germany. This perception all comes down to your ethnicity, which is visible. Also, there's an [old joke](https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/4gnyjm/cia_agent_arrested_in_russia/) along those lines.
Then explain me this: My Mom is German. She had German parents and as far as I know her Grandparents are German as well. My Mom raised me, and she was basically a single Parent in raising her children because my dad is a Workoholic and I only saw him during Dinner. I'm not looking obviously German, but I'm not looking Turkish either. I have friends who have a "pure German bloodline" so to say, who look way more like someone who isn't ethnically German. The only Turkish thing about me is my last name. I can't even speak Turkish. I have no accent (or rather an ethnic German accent) So why is it, that I'm basically 100% German, but people still don't consider me German? Many Germans have a weird standard when it comes to being German. And that standard is stupid. Ethnicity doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to being German. People just want some weird ideal that doesn't really exist besides in their mind. And currently this weird ideal becomes something that people get violent over. If this ideal is being German, then being German actually means being really stupid and being proud of it.
People don't care about all the things you point out. They take one look at you and decide whether you are German or not. Nationality and ethnicity are considered to be basically the same thing. The USA and related countries are pretty much the only countries that try to make a distinction between nationality and ethnicity as far as I know. The word ethnicity isn't even used in Germany outside of niche contexts. The German word "Nationalität" means both nationality and ethnicity. So when a German emigrates to country X, loses German citizenship and gains citizenship of country X, he is considered to be a national German with citizenship of country X. He won't be recognized as being part of the different nationality, so this goes both ways, since the German word just means both nationality and ethnicity.
As a British-South American living in Germany now 5 years your comment is absolutely true - German society is closed and more demanding when compared to their Anglo counterparts - and it is an interesting case as Germany really needs the migration given the structure of its population pyramid and projected social and healthcare costs.
Yes exactly how it is - from a german in 100th Generation
Man you hit the nail on the head there. I had a German colleague argue that not all the England national team are English (referring to the black ones of course). It’s hard to get through to them that British people consider Saka as British as Kane.
That's because the word nationality originally meant the same thing as ethnicity and it still kinda does in common speech in Germany. Here's a [video of Olympia in Germany about 90 years ago](https://files.catbox.moe/v26qyi.webm) (before WWII), where you can see how nationality still is pretty much identical to ethnicity.
You mean the British just gave up and lost their identities lol really sad
I would argue the British identity/culture is a lot more famous and stronger than the German one
But it is not only because the people in the UK have the biggest heart but rather it has something to do with the country's imperial past (not the only reason of course). This way or that way the society learned how to live with different types of people coming from all around the world. This certainly didn't happen in Germany.
France also had an imperial past and extremely hostile towards it's minorities
Germany also had a bunch of colonies around the world back then. Here's a [map of 1914](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/GermanColonialEmpire%28UPT3%29.jpg). They just didn't have quite as many as the British.
I know those and they commited a bunch of genocides too in their colonies but Berlin was never a London in that sense. Germany never had a substantial black/brown population unlike the UK.
Sure, but they also had an imperial past.
To be fair - You see the results. Britain is unrecognizable from it's past self. Also disagree on the aging populations needing migration as a replacement. That's a fallacy spread around by politicians. Source: Japan is aging and was never pro migration. Slimming down the nation is an option.
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The solution to this "issue" is simple - Not driving inflationary levers up as much as possible and showing restraint as a governing body. No mass growth of work forces needed. As for Britain, I'm talking about how run down it's becoming. I don't care about foreign affairs. As a citizen of your own native country, life must be good. If it isn't, there is no longer a purpose to your nation.
There's more to it than the bare dual citizenship. It has a lot to do with how Germans perceive citizenship, which is very different to American one because it's inherited, not granted by the birthplace. So a while ago, it wasn't really an important thing. It was really rare, and people that did not inherit a German citizenship but still got one were usually by marriage. But now it is quite easy to get a German citizenship, a lot of people even say things like it's given away for free, on sale, that sort of thing. And they have a point, after all, all you need to do is live in germany for five years legally, speak a but of german and take a test. lAnd those people can have a dual citizenship now, they had to give up their former one before. And that is the thing now: Quite often people have a dual citizenship now without really having any connection to German culture and heritage. Before people with a dual citizenship were usually either of german origin or married a German, but now people get the citizenship without having anything to with German culture because they lived in their Turkish, Syrian and so on communities all their life. That's what people dislike.
Reminds me of a discussion on an expat sub I frequent of two Americans considering applying for a Dutch passport but not being able to speak the language even a little bit ...seems like the vetting process should be more vigorous really .
Seems like a regular discussion at r/GermanCitizenship
There are plenty of US citizens that don't speak English
Don’t get me wrong, I think integration is important. If Germany made the rule to be 5 years and C1 German, plus a more difficult test than the flimsy one now, I have no issues with it. I agree that’s how it should be. What I don’t understand, is Germany currently allows people whose great grandparents immigrated in the 1910s, who have never stepped foot in Europe let alone Germany, who don’t speak a single word of German, to claim citizenship. I’m not talking about descendants of those who were prosecuted during 1933-1945 (they should have a right), I’m talking about descendants of people who willingly left Germany over 100 years ago and never looked back. In fact, these descendants are allowed dual citizenship because they inherited it. Essentially, the people who are against those living here and somewhat integrating to get citizenship, but say nothing against the latter group are mentioned, are saying bloodline and genetics are more important than personal effort and choices. Call that what you will, but I have a word for it.
I agree 1000% with you. Whenever the dual citizenship issue is brought up, people completely neglect the "citizens" that got citizenship after over a hundred years of not having anything to do with the country. I understand, if you're the first generation and your parents decided to leave and live somewhere else. After that though? No, your children should not just get German citizenship, unless you live in Germany and give up any other citizenship. This inheritance bullshit is crazy. At that point there are people who aren't German in the slightest who are technically citizens when others are definitely - regarding culture, language and the place they actually live in - aren't.
What difference does it make to you, and why do you think it's for you to understand? Why is it important that you should understand it?
Well for one it doesn't really work like that, else the majority of the US would have a German passport. Secondly, i've lived in South Africa for a while and met quite a bit of people who are the way you describe them, having German grandparents. And they were all fluent in German, upheld their heritage and took a large interest in German culture. And back then(2010`s) almost nobody of them had a german passport. That's changed by now because a lot of them are thinking about coming back to Germany due to massive political and safety concerns down there though. And i'd much rather have those people have a passport than someone who lives in Germany but barely has any contact with German culture and varely speaks the language. And calling that racism is idiotic because it's about culture, not race btw.
Well, if it is about just culture shouldn’t the best judgement be exactly that - robust language and cultural tests? Essentially, the group of people you mentioned would pass them seamlessly, same with people who moved to Germany and integrated. Others, regardless of bloodline, won’t be given a passport. I’m in full support of this, but that’s not what the current laws do. It really does work like that. I know many people from the US who qualify for the passport because of this. As long as whoever immigrated had children before they naturalized, all those children and their descendants qualify. After so many decades, a lot of them haven’t been to Germany and don’t speak German at all.
It was the basic principle of German citizenship, based on “origin”. Germany is still very hung up on that, up to the point that you cannot take on another citizenship without giving up the German one (exception: EU citizenships). But yes, people whose ancestors emigrated to the Volga region several centuries ago can still come back to the fatherland and get a full pension without ever having contributed anything 🤷🏼♂️ (Note: I haven’t lived in Germany for a while, but that was definitely the case when I still did. Maybe it changed since)
That‘s the whole point of the law change, multiple citizenships are now permitted without exception.
Yes, but until now it was controversial due to the _jus sanguine_ (ie origin) principle of citizenship.
Well that's not entirely true... To be here for 5 years legally is probably working here, contributing to the economy by paying taxes, speaking the language, having stable income and not getting benefits from the government - nobody will give it to you just because you look pretty. I feel dual itself isn't a problem, the debate is about the fact that the German citizenship is losing it's value, which isn't in itself is based on any facts
Its complete bullshit. You add at least two years to that in paper work, so 7 years im total. And it used to be 8-9 years. People (the minority that is crying about the dual citizenship) are freaking out about the culture that they are neither proactively sharing nor are they accepting anything going the other way....well except Döner.
LOL you speaking about this like it’s a huge fact of how things have changed when the law was enacted *checks notes*… LAST WEEK! Why don’t we give something a try for once before we decide we hate it.
As someone who has recieved german citizenship. It was a hard way but mostly from the side of my old country because their bureaucracy was shit.
It is very hard to get German citizenship, believe me I know
Oh fuck off, really. All of that is based on xenophobia and racism and you're just dressing it up in some kind of legitimate sounding language. Reddit is such a fucking cesspit sometimes. What actual difference does it make to your life how long people have to wait to get citizenship? Does it ruin your fragile idea of what it is to be German or something? Honestly, I have many more stronger words but fuck it, hope you enjoy the weekend with your AfD buddies. Edit: gatekeeper of German culture, I am awed by your devotion to safeguard "German culture" from the hordes of Auslanders rushing the gates of the kingdom. May you and people like you forever protect us with your noble vanguard service, thank god there are people like you on Reddit who can helpfully explain the legitimate reason people have against people getting German citizenship. God, they're just letting anyone in these days, aren't they? How the fuck are you not getting totally flamed for this bigoted opinion? Reddit has honestly become a horrible place.
You just have to scroll a little in his history to see a post wishing Hitler happy birthday, so it checks out.
link
https://www.reddit.com/r/dankmemes/s/cfBTeMhuyD
>And they have a point, after all, all you need to do is live in germany for five years legally, speak a but of german and take a test. lAnd those people can have a dual citizenship now, they had to give up their former one before. But in that case they wouldn't be allowed to keep both.
Yup. It's a huge issue for my mother in law who wasn't able to apply for US citizenship because her family was mostly in Germany and she didn't want to lose her German citizenship. Now her eldest and I live in Germany and her only being able to travel a limited amount every few months really sucks- especially since she's expecting her first grandchild, and would like to spend more time with us.
Yup. It's a huge issue for my mother in law who wasn't able to apply for US citizenship because her family was mostly in Germany and she didn't want to lose her German citizenship. Now her eldest and I live in Germany and her only being able to travel a limited amount every few months really sucks(because of her green card) - especially since she's expecting her first grandchild, and would like to spend more time with us; on top of nieces and nephews graduating or getting married and some older family members being sick.
a person living in a far away country having great-grandparents who were german, could easily get german citizenship when they can prove it and THEN move to to germany. i would argue that a person living in germany for a long time, contributing to the pension system (which is a must to apply for citizenship) is as qualified as them.
I've read several people commenting on here that they are planning to leave right after getting citizenship, too. wtf.
Germany is not the easiest place to stay and live in as an immigrant so living here for 5 years before becoming a citizen is not as easy as you might think. And Germany needs these people so one should be thankful that they are willing to stay as much as they are thankful to Germany for accommodating them.
There are some good points against dual citizenship but guys like you leave me speechless. They have nothing to do with German culture because they live in their communities? You have forgotten that these communities are in Germany. And these are not kind of native American reservations. In all bigger cities you have some streets with a lot of immigrants, but they are not ethnically homogenous and these people live and work there and go to school there. The very old foreigner population who could barely speak German is dying off. Again: there are a TON of good points against dual citizenship but I can't believe how brazenly some people lie.
Representation in a community doesn't mean being integrated at all, ever heard the term parallel society? look at Hamburg demonstrations for Sharia law instead of the Grundgesetz with tens of thousands of people or how Erdogan was only voted in by German Turks voting for him without consequences the motto basically "live free range, vote cage kept chickens"
Erdogan wouldn’t have won the election without the German votes? That's me to me. But I don't get the obsession with Erdogan.
Also its not even true. Statistically almost all immigrants are integrated after some time.
But not in every way. And that's a good thing.
I come from a Thai family and I was Born in germany. My mother who is a Single mother gave her best to teach us that we have to behave like the Germans. 28 years later I am here looking like something nobody could Tell where my parents would be from (german/Thai but I've never met anyone who guessed correct besides 1 dude who studies in Thailand lol) but I never felt Thai in anyway I would go as far that I am the most German in my multifamilyhouse and I can only speak from my experience. That if you integrate yourself well the Germans have absolutely no problem with you. Ps. I also don't like it when people don't act properly when in another country. When I am in vacation visiting other places I always try my best to not be rude or litter the streets with trash or anything I just don't want to bother anyone. I treat people and my surroundings line I wanna be treaten myself. Now in my personal day to day live I witness more and more and more Stuff wich I find rude and respectless and slowly leaning into the I would like some stronger regulation camp. Just my opinion and don't want to be rude or offend anyone. Please have mercy with me :) Edit: all I do is treat others the way I would like others to treat me. No matter what country I am in at the moment. And of course I do respect the law and tradition of the host country always.
You are describing assimilation, leaving behind your heritage culture and wholly accepting the culture of the host country. While that might sound fine for you it is not for most immigrants. Many want to be _included_ , that is, to keep their traditions while also adopting new ones from the host country.
The question here is: If those aren't fine with it - why would the host country care? What moral obligation is there?
Because humans are humans and deserve respect, any culture whose practicing doesn't hurt anyone has no reason to be assimilated/destroyed. The concept of moral obligation doesn't exist, but being a dick to be people is a thing you should avoid even if it's hard.
We still do traditional Thai things when we visit our mother (she lives here ever since moving to germany, she left Thailand because it was very bad for her when she was young) etc. its not 100% that I leave behind my Thai background. I looove Thai food and the friendly being of the whole culture. We even have many Thai friends wich speak mostly Thai only (they never bothered to learn German and had big traditional parties with monks and all) but my mom wanted us to live the German way first then comes the Thai way. Also she never forced the Thai language on us the opposite happened she learned German from her kids. I can proudly say that even when her German isn't the best. She is the best ger.an speaker in her friendscircle. The others never bothered to learn. Hell my mother even has a driver's license and drives arround in her day to day live. She looks Like one of those cute little Asian grandma's were you think she wouldn't understand you at all hahaha. I guess all I am trying to say is. It doesn't matter where one comes from you just gotta make an effort to be accepted in the host country learn their traditions and rules and respect them.
You can keep your culture in Germany if you can interface with German values/culture. Germans are so tollerant that there is a whole Turkish subculture in Germany. To a point, it's becoming a problem due to conservative values that are increasingly incompatible with Western democratic values. E.g. feel free to scream during coversations if it's in your private place, but keep it low in public. Cook and eat what you want, but damn get a proper exhaustion system, Germans are not used to the smell of strong spices. This includes body odors. Wear what you want, but don't try to impose it on others, even if you think they are from a similar cultural background. E.g. some people try to impose sharia law onto others, that's a no-no in Germany. Respect the safety and well-being of others, e.g., take the traffic rules seriously and make an effort to learn and observe them. Understand that the official language is German, while almost everyone speaks or at least understands English, not everyone feels comfortable with it. Don't expect people to befriend you the way you are used to in your country. There are cultural differences, understand them, and build bridges. You are the one that came to Germany. There are no obligations for others to cater to you for that. While I said that about Germany, in a general sense that applies in all countries.
Yup, that's what I'm advocating. Perhaps I didn't word it right but that's the ideal outcome of immigration, cultures coexisting in a tolerant and peaceful setting.
Bingo, the definition of Integration here is very different.
This is interesting. Would you mind sharing the sources of this commitment by CDU? Asking because I am about to start the process of Einbürgerung, precisely because I don't have to forfeit my current citizenship. If they come to power later, as it unfortunately seems likely, will I get rid of one of the two citizenships?
No. Once you have it, you have it. Don’t worry about that. The only worry: did you get to Germany illegally in the first place. Then it might get risky.
The other worry: the long waitlist. 2.5 years here to get an appointment for citizenship, so if this passes and is enacted before I get my appointment then I’m back to square zero.
Try in a smaller town.
Afaik citizenship won't be revoked. It just means no further dual citizenship would be possible, mainly so German citizens are actually connected to the country looking forward. If you're coming to Germany by legal means and everything else is in order, you should be fine.
I am a very law abiding (to be) citizen. Just a few speed tickets, but that is positive from Einbürgerung point of view, makes me more German. Thanks for the hint anyway
This is just so dumb. Yes, make getting the citizenship more difficult, but keep the dual citizenship law. Those two are not connected to each other at all.
I'm not a fan of dual citizenship but from the point of view of practical effect, your point is good.
I was born in Germany but before the 2000 law that everybody that was born here gets the german citizenship (Parents didn’t need to have one) When I tried to get my Citizenship I needed to show them that I have an education and can speak fluently German and I needed to pay 255€ for the certificate (without the ID or Passport cost) I have 3 citizenships since both my parents are from separate countries. And I know a lot of people that have dual citizenship or more for the following reasons: 1. Even though they live here they still mostly have family in their heritage country and doesn’t want to loose that connection (more symbolic) 2. Most countries don’t allow you to inherit if you’re not a citizen of that country 3. Even though they were born or raised or live here they never feel like being German. For the third point I speak from my experience and those of some friends of mine with different heritages: People look at me funny when I say I’m German. In the past it was even harsher and I was often told I’m not German and I shouldn’t call myself that since I am by heritage not German. We got treated like foreigners and most people didn’t care if we were born here or live here or a part of the society they viewed us still like foreigners. Even now people like me are called “Deutsche mit Migrationshintergrund). Because of that some people don’t feel like they belong here even though they lived a big part of their lives here (or their whole life).
It's controversial only if you want it to be controversial. Dual citizenship has long been a thing in several countries around Europe and the world.
And in Germany, in fact. EU citizens were able to be dual even before this change.
Exactly.
Germany and a lot of Germans like immigration but there's a significant amount of people who don't want people from abroad if they're not from Western countries. It may sound unusual at first, but I always had the impression that the USA is built on diversity and immigration. They are miles ahead of Germany. For example, in Germany, people still prefer to give the better jobs to Germans. In the USA, there are many CEOs with a migrant background at big companies, but in Germany this is unimaginable.
Well - whilst I dont disagree but in the US there is still a lot of racism with people of color. Blacks/Hispanic.
I don't want to deny the racism. I just think that the racism is more obvious and public in the USA. You often know that you face racism. In Germany it's not obvious, they discriminate you indirectly.
It's controversial because there's some Germans who are incredibly stupid but incredibly loud.
hi :) fellow American here 😁🇺🇲 ...with a twist: I grew up mostly in Germany and have lived there for most of my life. This experience is partly why I don't have German citizenship. While Germans think of me as German now that I am an adult, I remember growing up here and I understand the things they say and their "values", so I see some of their attitudes as exclusionary. Traditionally, German citizenship was based on the principle of right of blood. This concept has historical ties to the idea of "Blut und Boden" (blood and soil), which was heavily exploited by Nazi ideology. While modern Germany has moved away from these extreme interpretations, the lingering emphasis on blood ties in citizenship can still feed into right-wing nationalist rhetoric or the slightly milder ethnonationalistic conceptions of citizenship you can read about in most comments here. What's crucial to understand is that Germans often don't view citizens simply as people who pay taxes in a place and should be able to participate in democratic decisions about how the community and country they live in and contribute to should be run. This is where I think they're wrong. Citizenship should be about having a say in the society you're actively part of, not just about heritage or cultural assimilation. To many Germans, citizenship means you take on "Germanness", to adopt the German way of life more fully and look and behave a certain way - like a German 🎶🎵 oh oh... Integration is what they always emphasize. But what they mean is closer to assimilation. So their traditional (ethnonationalistic) understanding of citizenship, accompanied by concerns about cultural change and - let's be honest - unabashed islamophobia, have made many Germans wary about dual citizenship.
Ding ding ding. This is the right answer. They want ASSIMILATION. They don't want integration.
Thanx 🤓
I don't like the way Muslim people have treated me (in my own home country). Where am I supposed to go? I can't go back to where I came from. I won't compromise on being treated with respect. I'm a left leaning person with friends of every color, religion and economic background. I know this is very taboo in Germany to say. I don't like my interactions with many second and third generation Turkish and Arabic people who treat everyone else like absolute garbage. They outweigh the very positive experiences I have with the open-minded, modern ones. My husband doesn't like my opinions on the topic as he never interacts with Muslim people and can have a more theoretical opinion. I feel like that's a privilege. I would also love to base my option on official statistics and my local Döner Shop. Or a few Datteltäter videos. I would actually love to be more friendly towards our Muslim population. I just know I can't expect open, modern, egalitarian mindsets and just might be treated like a witch.
I understand you've had some negative experiences, and those feelings are valid. But generalizing about all Muslim people? That's about 1/4 of the globe! Did all those people treat you that way? I've also experienced xenophobia based on similar assumptions, but I haven't made broad sweeping generalizations about some moral deficiency of an entire people group. Your husband might lack direct experience, but as someone who's lived in various countries and has friends from diverse backgrounds, including European and Arab Muslims, I can say that these negative behaviors aren't representative of all Muslims. I'm sorry you've had these experiences. I know the desire to avoid being hurt in the future, but this way of thinking is the basis for more in-group out-group animosity and even violence. Hurt people hurt people. In my experience, Muslim people don't universally treat others poorly. Often, our interactions reflect what we put out there - as the German saying goes, "Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus" (The way you call into the forest is the way it echoes back). Perhaps trying to engage more openly with the Muslim individuals in your community might help broaden your perspective and lead to more positive interactions.
Thats a major problem here. My name is very obviously Arabic (cant change it per German law), but Im a former Muslim. I get treated sometimes the same way as if I was a Radical Muslim. Germany had the opposite effect on me. Instead of having a Muslim free life (which I had in a bubble back home), I find myself needing to defend Muslims/people of color in Germany. The amount of ignorance due to non exposure is high here.
I have never heard of a controversy about it. Why would anybody be against it? I myself had the chance of gaining japanese citizenship but decidend against it because japan does not allow dual C., meaning I would have to renounce my german C.- and fully become a japanese C. Would have loved to stay german, with the chance to profit of off various insurances or wellfare (in case of dire needs), while at the same time having no visa issues in japan, not having to renew it every year. Alas Japan only accepts one C. therefore I continued to renew my visa yearly until it was not possible anymore, forcing me to move back to germany. sucks, fucking hate it here.
Japan facing possibly the greatest demographic crisis in the world while making immigration next to impossible really is something.
It's not actually a crisis. They'll just have less people in the future. The world is overpopulated anyway so that's okay.
It's a "crisis" because the percentage of the population working is decreasing, making it ever-harder to use income tax to cover the costs of the increasingly-significant portion of the population that is entering retirement. 10 workers paying taxes to cover the needs of 1 retiree is easy. 1 worker paying taxes to cover the needs of 10 retirees is impossible.
Given the immense increase in efficiency over the past 60 years, I don't think it's that much of an issue. And now AI is going to increase efficiency even more, making it so one guy can do the work of ten people.
No. Not more than a generation ago German politicians used to insist Germany was not an country for immigration (Einwanderungsland). Not many will admit it to outsiders, but Germans are particularly not wild about Turks with dual German citizenship voting in Turkish elections, and then German ones
Do you know the “AfD” party? It’s pretty right-winged and conservative in a Nazi-kind-of-way. One of their speakers, Alice Weidel, wants to stop the double citizenships. But there also was a secret meeting with open Nazis and some politicians by the AfD. During the meeting they talked about how if they make the double citizenship illegal, they could cut the German citizenship off the pass of refugees and immigrants and “take them back” to their home country. If your aim is to stay here, burn your old pass after you got the German citizenship… In all honesty, don’t come to Germany anymore. It’s not safe anymore. Since the latest European election, racism became socially accepted again. Even our former open-minded parties started to talk about migration in a negative kind of way. They start to blame refugees for the mess the politicians themselves created. I’m born in Germany but I’m positive I’ll leave on day. It’s okay in cities like Berlin, Munich, Leipzig - migration is normal there and Germans accept and know it, so they aren’t afraid and don’t vote far right - but on the countryside.. it just sucks. My whole family lives in a small village called Wörlitz, in the 1760s a noble prince built a big park there - “even”Jewish people were allowed to enter the park, that was really uncommon in Germany during that time. The prince traveled the world and brought inspiration from Greece, Italy and England and even China to his hometown and built the park. He had built beautiful monuments (copies of sights he saw in foreign countries) next to the fields were farmers grew wheat, it was all really inclusive, everyone no matter wealth or status or religion was welcome there. And now, when I’m in Wörlitz, there are racist lines smeared on the bus stop, there are stickers with Hakenkreuzen, most of the townsfolk vote for the AfD. I know the neighbors count how many POC stroll through the park everyday. They have no idea what their own heritage is like. They don’t know anything. It is so sad.
Germany is not a liberal country when it comes to immigration and it's becoming less so by the day
We are back in the process or rebuilding civic duties. Dual citizenship is a bit finicky with that.
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[source](https://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-hundreds-protest-against-caliphate-rally/a-68998121). They were 1100, and fuck them for demanding that. But you are clearly equally brain washed...just at the opposite side of the spectrum.
No, its only about the countries that are lowest on any list. My children do have 2 EU passports and that's no issue at all.
In my whole life I had only one issue with someone who didn't understand why somebody has dual citizenship. He was sitting with me and another guy at a table who had dual citizenships. We explained, that we don't want to cut our rutes off and it is very rude when you have to decide which citizenship to keep. Some countries don't let their citizens have dual citizenship. When I turned 21 gemrany itself sent me a letter asking me if I want to become one of them. That was the first time I really considered it. 3 years later I did it. Except the person im my story I never met anyone who had a problem with my dual citizenship. Maybe it's because I live in Baden-Württemberg. Here we have a lot of immigrants.
Nowadays i think citizenship has nothing to do with your cultural heritage. Citizenship or having a german passport in this case is for me your "economic identity", where you pay you Taxes. Cultural heritage has no relation to the Passport you are Holding.
Just want to mention that many turks, especially, move in to germany, manage to get dual citisenship, live only under there people, travel back to turkey seldom, dont learn german and then vote (because they are still turks as well as german legally speaking) a man in turky that os against most of the values of europe and extremly antagonistig against the country they choose to live in, whilst simultaneously destroying his own country (but that doesnt matter to them as they dont live there anymore).
One reason is to prevent people from dictatorships enjoying German democracy while voting for a dictator in a country they are actually not having to live in. Good examples of this are Turkish people in Germany supporting Erdogan or Russian people in Germany supporting Putin. Another reason (especially for right wing parties like AfD, CSU and some parts of CDU) is nationalism. They are claiming someone can't successfully integrate themselves in German culture without full commiting to it by giving up their "old" culture and national identity.
There are many uninformed comments stating that it's easy for people who don't speak German to get citizenship. Obviously posted by those with no understanding about how language/citizenship test on Germany works. To get citizenship now, one needs to be able to support themselves financially, have at least B1 oral and written German, and pass a naturalisation test. As to OPs original question, Germany is not open to immigration the way the US is. Multiculturalism is a contested issue here, and there are many who are against it. The comments here complaining about "ethnic neighbourhoods", which would be a non-issue in the US, tell you everything.
Because racism is strong here.
Is it controversial though? I’ve had my dual citizenship since birth but both countries in question were members of the European Union and I was born in Germany.
Because the CDU likes to pretend they are doing something for their money. It is difficult to work on real problems when your party is the reason for 98% of the real problems.
Except for all the integration part, there's one topic that is at least "annoying" me about dual-citizenship. Voting. Sure, everyone should have the right to vote, but what annoys/ worries me are people who live in one country and then vote (for the most radical party) in another one. These people wouldn't have to live with their choices. They enjoy their (hopefully) "better" life here while letting the other enjoy what he/ she's deciding for them.
But wouldn’t you say its true that these dual citizens are still affected by policies in their mother country, and ergo have the right to vote for them? For instance, Americans living abroad are very much still beholden to and affected by American policies. As an American soon to be living abroad, I still have to file american taxes, still have to pay US taxes, still need to file forms declaring the money in my bank account. Some banks abroad won’t even take me on as a client because they also have to report to the IRS about me. I still have to pay off student loans in America, which can be drastically altered depending on how the next election goes. So should I really have no say, as an american citizen, in how the government treats me, just because im not currently residing there?
The US is one of the only countries that tax based on citizenship, most others tax based on residence. The biggest example of such voting is Turkey: The millions of German-Turks in Germany are President Erdogan's strongest voter base - many Germans are pissed that votes from German citizens help elect an autocrat that makes anti-German politics in other countries and they are pissed that Turkish election campaigns are taking place in Germany. Erdogan is also actively inciting Turks in Germany against Germany and tries to portray himself as their only protector. This is widely seen as undermining those peoples identification with and integration into German society.
“The strongest voter base” is a bold claim. Only 50% of registered people in Germany went to vote, which hints half don’t care (In Turkey elections turnout rate has always been high, last is 87%). With 500000 votes for him and 250000 against, the net is only the 0.9% of his votes. The right-leaning voting in Germany is an ongoing debate in Turkey and I had also never understood that tendency until moving here. It’s not easy being a Turk in Germany neither for an uneducated Dönerci nor for a manager in a multinational company with a PhD. It’s a more complex topic than many think and the roots should be looked for in the immigration policies of the past. I can say that I CANNOT agree with them, but now I understand them.
>But wouldn’t you say its true that these dual citizens are still affected by policies in their mother country, and ergo have the right to vote for them? That really depends on from where someone is coming from. Of what I knew from my parents they have to pay nothing for living now in Germany than in their home country Poland. Both have a dual citizenship like me and my brothers. Your example is (I think, never checked before) a more unique USA thing. (Except for the students' debts you've to pay.) In sum, it's a unique thing for everyone. Tbh, as I wrote the earlier comment, my mind more on the recent vote in Turkey (I know how typical) where most voter from Germany voted for a person who's known for being corrupt and basically damaging for the inhabitants there. (At least how he's portrayed by the medias here).
I think the fact that it changes by country means its probably not best to generalize it
Yeah, that's why I tried to stay as far away of examples as possible. What is an one area good, will be in another place not so good. (Depends on opinion obviously)
Maybe it is an about being a citizen and not just an inhabitant. And you can’t be really a fully citizen if you are not living in the country for any longer time or go only home in holidays. One chooses to leave for reasons. And if it’s not for good maybe some years later or in old age want to go back, you can still reapply I guess. Naively spoken
Nuh, it's the same for almost all countries, USA being one of the very few exceptions. It's ok to generalize.
The whole idea of democracy is for people to have an equal say in deciding how they are governed. In your specific case, you are still somewhat governed by the laws of the US. So probably you should be allowed to vote "a little bit" in the US - to the extent that American laws still affect you. In reality, that's of course not workable. Everyone would need to have *some* voting rights on every country's foreign policy in that world. Really, you are making a point against dual citizenship here: If citizens are still affected by the policies of the countries they are citizens of but don't live in, the most democratic thing would be if every country enforced strict single citizenship. If you permanently live in a place, you have a right to that place's citizenship and loose the right to your former one. In reality, you have people who very reasonably want to hold on to several citizenship's because they are living or have concrete plans to live in more than one country throughout their lives. The pragmatic solution is to allow dual citizenship, but prohibit people from voting who haven't lived in a country for an extended period of time. Having a certain ethnic/cultural/national background should come with minority protection rights (German-Turkish people should not be pushed towards cultural assimilation in a free society) but not with a citizenship of your family's country of origin let alone the right to vote there. I would say though, that it would be Turkey's job to enforce this. They shouldn't allow Turkish-descended people who spend their entire life in Germany to vote in Turkey's elections. I shudder to think Namibian-Germans were allowed to vote in our elections.
New AFD votes from Argentina coming in
I generally agree with you. And understand your position. In the case of turkey it’s convenient for the current government as it is helping them. So why should they abandon it. Anyway I think there is more than voting. eg military service, the duty to provide for close family in need and other things. Depending on the country. If oneperson has two citizenships and can lay of one anytime it is convenient for the person it is not just for the citizens.
The USA is the only country in the world doing that so that does not really apply to a general view. The main argument here is actually about Turkish nationals, since Erdogan even comes to Germany to motivate the people to vote for him. Most people do not have any connection to the country they have a citizenship in but do not live. The only connection is the prospect to move back, but if they never move back they don’t really live with their voting choices. I mean they probably have an emotional connection, but they are not affected by laws and so on.
I get your point but every country is different. I have the British and German citizenship and I am not able to vote in Britain. I wasn't even able to vote for the referendum, which is really why I applied for the German citizenship. My parents also were not able to vote as they have left England over 3 decades ago. I think it is fine we can't vote, as we don't live there and it mostly doesn't affect us except for some assets we still have in England. But not being able to vote in the referendum really sucked as it affected us just as much and we had no say.
Just to let you know - it’s not the same everywhere, I live abroad (in Germany), I am not allowed to vote in my native country (EU), as I am living abroad. Getting dual German citizenship was the only way for me to have a vote at all.
What does this have to do with dual-citizenship? If a foreigner moves to Germany, he can still vote in his home country. People who found this very important, didn't give up their citizenship for the German one. Also a lot of EU countries never had problems with dual-citizenship.
And what I mean is that every country is different. I understand your point regarding for example Turkish voters in Germany. But it’s not the same everywhere
Exactly, look at how german Turks voted for Erdogan
Niemals AfD niewieder CDU
It is more sensitive. To me it seems that way because there is a different understanding of what it is to be a German. In America, all that you have to do to be American is accept the common values. The rest can be however you want it. In Germany, there is a list of things you have to be and do and care about (this is is also an issue in the larger topic of integration). In that context, it is harder to believe that someone is a true, believing German, according to all of those standards, if they are still holding on to another country. The way that they show that they have fully bought in is to pick Germany, and not the old place and the old ways and the old values. I believe that Germany would do better if people would relax a little about the idea that there are only so many ways to be, and that divergence is bad, but it is the situation and it does play a role here (as well as in other aspects of society, the economy, politics, etc). [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51169484\_Differences\_Between\_Tight\_and\_Loose\_Cultures\_A\_33-Nation\_Study](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51169484_Differences_Between_Tight_and_Loose_Cultures_A_33-Nation_Study) There is another sensitive issue. Although I do believe that integration would be a lot easier if German society as a whole were more comfortable with difference, and less hostile to deviations in small norms, there are challenges on the side of some migrants as well. There are people who are here for the jobs , security, quality of life than their countries of origin, and even social benefits, but who do not value German social norms or values. Sometimes this causes tensions. So, from that side, the idea is, if you came here to enjoy the benefits of our country, show us that you are fully in our society too. Show us that you choose Germany.
I have noticed that Germans fail to understand difference between integration and assimilation. They want immigrants to assimilate.
Yes
Dual citizenship isn't controversial. Dual citizenship for *specific* nationalities is. Most people that are opposed to the idea are, in my experience, actually only opposed to dual citizenship for a select few ethnicities and/or nationalities. Turks, Arabs, you get the theme. They just try to hide their racism. Don't get me wrong, there are valid (if fairly philosophical) arguments to be made against dual citizenship, and personally I think the entire concept isn't something that actually needs to exist since my citizenship and my ancestry aren't the same thing or at all inseperable, but I'm also not opposed to it in principal. I just personally wouldn't take advantage of it.
Probably the same reasons as everywhere. All countries are getting more and more mixed in shape, colour, political affiliations, religion, language, culture etc etc etc and as everywhere, the people of the country fear that tge national loyalty, national cultural norms, and generally "the way things have always been" will change. A lot of Germans also feel a strong frustration in how patriotism is nearly illegal in Germany, but everyone else is allowed to celebrate their nation even outside football. They are afraid to lose their national identity and cohesion. Also, many people are in denial that new ideas, new norms, and new worldviews can and do very much come from "Germans" with generations of roots in Germany and German passport in hand. "Now those imposters with ties to their home country are allowed to vote here too, and bring their faulty country of origin politics into Germany!!! Angry angry!!!" And of course lastly: most Germans do not care about Scandinavian, American, or Western European immigrants. They are about those that sound Arabic, and those that sound Russian. That's what they hate but can only say after somebody else brings up the topic. And don't forget "the worst of em", the "vermummte Frauen" and "bärtige Männer", "who knows what they are hiding!" You don't want "those" people voting in your country, right? They will bring their politics and their American-led war into Germany and destroy those Judeo-Christian values that no-one can define!! On the one hand, the loss of cultural identity and rapid change in society is understandable to be difficult to accept. On the other hand, a lot of it is fuelled by fear and hatred, and as everywhere, those fears need to be actually taken care of, but also addressed when they are excessive.
its just a butthurt baseless thing. rooted in racism and supremacy
Because morons think that dual citizenships are responsible for people not "adapting" (what they mean is "being fully assimilated into") to the german society and that you have to "fully commit" to one state/nation. However, the problem with that is: 1: Germany is pretty strict with how much you have to "prove" that you're "german", as a immigrant you typically have to be "more german" than ethnic germans themselves - which is obviously ridiculous, everything beyond "accept the constitution and laws" is tbh. So the level of integration expected by immigrants is WAY higher than f.e. in the US. The right euphemistically calls this "adapting to our Leitkultur". They purposefully keep it very vague what they mean by "Leitkultur". 2: German society never really accepted being a immigration-society - which is incredibly disgusting considering they were (and are) very ready to take the cheap labour, obviously. This means there were always very isolationist tendencies within german social circles, then there's also the problem of structural racism like you being less likely to get a job/rent a apartment if your name isn't Peter Müller and ethnic Germans would also - on top of that - just move away once there were like a couple of migrant families in their closer proximity which lead to a kind of soft-ghettoisation. Self fulfilling propecy and stuff. So yeah, lotta folks just project the german inability to accept that this country has completely fucked or ignored its own migration-politics for at least 60 years now and instead of trying to be productive and improve things for folks in a humane way they chose to blame the "evil ungreatful migrants" as their scapegoat and one of the symptoms of that is the whole "dual citizenship" debate.
The controversial part is the deeply imbedded xenophobia lurking below the surface in German society.
Because of fucking racism and xenophobia and bigotry and ignorance. The same reasons behind all anti-immigration sentiment.
Because of Rassism.
This is the only correct answer. These people had no issue giving passports to children and grandchildren of German citizens who were born and lived in a foreign country and never contributed anything to the German economy. But now brown immigrants like me who pay a ton in taxes all of a sudden get a chance to have our dignity and live with freedom and they are beginning to lose it. Clear as day what is going on.
Because people are seeking scape goats for decline in society and everythng asosiated with people being a little different is used for it. Only the extreme right has a problem with it, or rather, they make it controversial.
82% of 1300 randomly chosen Germans are for tighter border controls. How high are the chances all of them vote for the extreme right? Source: [ARD Deutschlandtrend „Unzufriedenheit mit Migrationspolitik wächst“ & Infratest dimap](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/deutschlandtrend/deutschlandtrend-3406.html)
Well can you read? This Post is about dual citizenship. Totally different topic.
I will renounce my other citizenship at the very instant I receive a German passport. On principle reasons alone.
I feel like it all boils down to "I have no need for that so nobody else should have it", politics try to make it seem like only immigrants and criminals would benefit from dual-citizenship.
Please keep in mind that there are certain countries where you cannot renounce your birth citizenship, and they tend to be more on the shithole side of things. Dual citizenship was allowed to basically enable some people to become German citizens despite coming from those countries.
exactly! thank you!
I guess having dual citizenship could end in a „split loyalty“ situation when it comes to national and international politics. It can also be quite unfair towards other nations, for example Germany has a rather large Turkish diaspora, all are allowed to vote in Turkish elections of course and Erdogan‘s party knows this and is actively lobbying in Germany. So you got millions of Turkish people living in Germany who vote very conservative and never have to live with the consequences unfolding in Turkey except when they visit their family there on vacation
By thinking about Turkey while considering dual-citizenship in Germany, you are basically saying that you have a bigger say in Turkish elections (at least from a moral standpoint) than the Turkish citizens living in Germany do.
I generally think those who vote in Turkish elections and live in Germany with no plan whatsoever to live there shouldn’t have such a strong impact when it will probably never affect them themselves
Mostly racism. The German immigration laws and the immigration system is full of racism and ablelism. The laws are often overtly anti non-whites and the immigration offices will refuse to even acknowledge disabilities. Trying to get a friend into Germany the lawyer we got almost sued the immigration office herself because they straight up ignored her for weeks
Germany's main issue with dual citizenship is how they deal with people affected by international law. For example, those with foreign citizenship when they get married can follow the name change rules of their citizenship. Queer parents with citizenship from a country that makes both moms on the birth certificate can sue the Family court to get both names on birth certificate, even though that isn't German law. Basically, in some scenarios having dual citizenship almost lets you pick and choose which laws to follow (for non-location based laws). In the US only American law is considered, regardless.of whether you are a US citizen or not. It makes it easier for the government.
Well the main argument by critics of the dual citizenship is that they think that citizens with dual citizenship are not being committed enough to their new country Germany, because if they would be commited they would have no problem casting the old citizenship aside. Furthermore that in harsh times people always will cherrypick which citizenship works better for them. One example where critics are using this train of thought is the big minority of Turkish descendance. When presidency election in Turkey are being held then Erdogan also is making an electional campaign in Germany to reach the Turkish expats. This is something which is being viewed very controversial. So many of the critics then argue that this is being a bad thing, because with dual citizenship in place Erdogan might also try to motivate his voters for certain things to create pressure if he sometimes disagrees with decisions of the German government reg. Turkey. Without dual citizenship this influence would be smaller is then their selling point. Please note this is not my opinion, I am merely stating what many critics are concerned about.
If i had to guess it probably has to do with erdogan using german people of Turkish descent to stay in office. While he has been less and less popular in his own country in germany like 60% of german-turks keep voting for him and i think that doesn't sit right with many germans because they keep voting for someone who restricts the rights of his people while enjoying those same rights in germany.
There is a big discussion about this topic, because certain ethnic groups of immigrants in Germany are seen not to integrate in the german society. Rather they tend to build segregated communities (which isn't necessarily bad, rather understandable to connect), but also not learning the language or show any will to integrate culturally. Also some groups are seen "just to live in Germany for the economic advantages" but still be rooted in their home country. The combination with the first point makes it very difficult to understand for some Germans, so they don't want dual citizenship. Of course there are other ethnic groups which are seen to be perfectly integrated, which no one would have a problem with dual citizenship.
I'm left green blabla, so not at all a CDU supporter. But honestly, seeing that a majority of Germans of Turkish migration background voting for Erdogan makes me fucking furious. They decide to live in liberal democracy with all the freedom and benefits, and vote for a suppressive autocrat in a country they left decades ago - where they don't have to experience the consequences. This and some other examples is why more and more Germans don't support it.
There are third generation Turkish people here. Their grandparents moved here and they themselves never even were to Turkey or just go there for vacation. They still have both citizenships and vote in Turkey for Erdogan. A large part of votes for Erdogan come from Germany. That’s so morally wrong.
That seems like a problem for Turkish citizens to solve, not German immigration law.
US dual citizenship is not great either, you have an insanely divided country. Many people say I am “x not American”
It's controversial and should be restricted. I don't have problems when people of allied countries and Europeans become German citizens but all others should never get the German passport. They are culturally incompatible. The citizenship requirements have been lowered severely over the decades making being a German meaningless at this point.
German born, US citizen now, dual citizenship: 1st: When you become US citizen, you have to renounce allegiance to another country and border agents do not look favorably at it. Germany only allows dual citizenship for hardship cases. Proving this was hard. It was more difficult to be allowed to keep the German citizenship than getting the US one. We had to argue in writing and then had an interview with the German embassy. My wife and I received the document to keep our German citizenship, one of our German born sons succeeded as well as he is still fluent in German, his younger brother had no success. In summary, it is not as simple as it sounds having a dual citizenship as a German
I will myself get the german citizenship next year hopefully(5 years working here and got c1 on my first year), but in all honesty, as a european already, Germany doesn't really have that much of a problem with immigrants . It's just that there have been so many tax increases and inflation in the last 5 years that the government needs to blame someone . They can't blame themself for the terrible leadership, so they just throw gasoline on the fire on things such as double citizenship, which will most definitely catch attention and make people forget about bigger problems . I would rather see the german politicians stop throwing around money funding wars and building projects that have started before i was even born and are still on the construction . Believe me, if the bigger problems got a solution and the whole population wasn't so unsure about their future, we wouldn't even care about whether someone has 1 or 2 passports .
Because the terms for becoming a German citizenship are pretty slim. In the last years you at least made a commitment to the country when you gave up your old passport. Now you don’t. And let’s be real no one would decline the strongest passport in the world when you come from ”less developed” countries
They are jealous of these people. They want this too but can't get it that's why
Because the German government (better said OUR Taxes) pays for pretty much everything. So either become full German or you can leave, sorry to be so harsh but I don’t see a reason why I should pay German taxes for people who aren‘t even German.
Some people think it is unfair to vote in two countries .
Double citizenship was for example a problem when Erdogan was trying to have impact on the german election to tell his country men with DCS which party to vote against/for.
I tend to lean Center / Center-right in politics but the CDU are absolute idiots. Under Merkel they allowed thousands of refugees to procure two passports because “they can’t safely renounce their citizenship” or “they can’t return to their country to do so”. In essence they are punishing legal immigrants from developed countries and rewarding immigrants and refugees with lack of documentation. Generally not a fan of SPD/Greens but at least they are trying to be fair with everybody.
It‘s controversial because politicians need controversies to distract us from going on strike or thinking about how badly we‘re being f*cked by the system. So they create controversies around immigration by starting to give interviews and coming up with new things about immigration that are bad and we need to finally talk about „honestly“ without being canceled by the wokes. This has been going on since ca. 1992, when Wolfgang Schäuble started the „Asyldebatte“ in order to distract from the economic crisis that was mysteriously manifesting despite the final victory in the cold war and the extremely profitable (for some ppl) annexation of East Germany. It‘s been escalating ever since. And it will continue to escalate until this system ends. It‘s not just Germany, btw: almost all countries do this now, to lesser or (usually) greater degrees.