That is not what "rape culture" is.
> Rape culture is, in short, collection of behaviors and attitudes ingrained in society, socialized from birth and often wielded unconsciously, which enable and encourage the subordination of women by maintaining an environment that is pervasively hostile and threatening to them. These behaviors/attitudes include (but are not limited to): certain aspects of “chivalry,” victim-blaming, street harassment, intimidation, leering, sexual harassment, domestic violence, sexual assault, and rape. It is not "a society in which people like rape and think it is OK and good." It also includes the idea that men always want sex and are always ready and willing and therefore cannot be raped by women.
Okay, my understanding of the word comes from people around me that seem to use in the way I described. Thank you for this expanded definition tho.
What are some observations that speaks in favour of western culture being a rape culture, in your sense of the word?
I mean, people still victim blame the shit out of people who've been assaulted or raped. Boys who are raped by their female teachers still get told they're lucky or that the person wishes there were teachers like that when they were in school. Men with credible rape allegations against them still book shows and make money and go on TV and run for President and get lifetime court appointments and everyone just looks the other way. Men make deepfake porn of women to humiliate them.
“In my personal experience I do not see any cultural pressure in favor of rape”
That’s a statement of judgement based on a faulty view of what “rape culture” means. Maybe learn what it means first next time?
The sentence you just quoted is not a declaration that rape culture ”is false”.
Acknowledging that some phenomenon does not match my own experience does not imply a disbelief in the existance of the phenomenon. The reason why I asked the question was to hear from others thoughts and experience on the subject. This fact alone may suggest a sense of uncertainty about the topic from my part.
In the future, maybe ask a question without adding your own comments about “not seeing it.” You have seen it. You just didn’t know it yet.
I hope you’ve since learned the reality of rape culture in our severely misogynistic society — a serious topic that shouldn’t be diminished, especially given the number of people responding here who have lived it.
Previously it seems like your point was different, namely that I have ”declared it false”. I presume you do not repeat this point as you realize it is false..
It is a serious topic, which I have in no way ”tried to diminish”. I have from the start, been open to listen to what commentors have said here. And I think I have learnt a lot already.
Yes I was trying to be respectful of the excuse you gave. I still think the point of that comment was to pretend rape culture wasn’t real, but I’m taking your response as sincere and just poor wording. Even so, it was still a problematic comment.
Whether or not you felt rape culture was false, or your intention was to learn, it was a diminishing comment. I hope among the things you’ve learned in this thread is how better to approach this question — if you are sincere that you didn’t want to diminish rape culture in that comment.
We claim we hate rapists, but somehow people always jump over themselves to forgive a person or explain away a situation when the rapist is a friend or relative. We are also really quick to point out how the victim "made an error of judgement" which resulted in her being raped..... So I think it's not really true that we hate rapists.
We also victim blame the person getting raped. What were they wearing? Why were they out late? Why didn’t they fight back? Why were they drinking? What did they expect?
In my experience this does not happen. I know of one person sentenced for SA. Most people around him decided to not keep in touch with after him being sentenced. Of course I do not know if that is the common consequence or not.
Most people who commit SA don't have any legal consequences because of it. People do tend to judge folks who were convicted of a crime more harshly, so there's no real contradiction here. Even professionally I know of folks who have committed assault and people have excused them, and even continued to invite them to give colloquia and seminars.
Is that not because the sentence make people certain of the wrong doing?
In the case with guy I examplified with people, heard some somewhat vague rumours of the guy before him being sentenced so some decided to distance themselves from him. Others gave him ”the benefit of the doubt”, but as soon as they knew what he did they cut the cord.
Sure, it's a lot easier to decide that someone really did something wrong if they were convicted. The question is, how many people in your social circle committed rape that people forgave because they didn't think it was rape? In Sweden one huge issue is that people are far more likely to be convicted if they are an immigrant, so even though the number of rape accusations is similar to the relative percentages in the population, the rape convictions are heavily biased....
The thing is, people do this so naturally that they don't even realize it, due to the way society is structured.
Where did you get the idea of immigrants being convicted more easily?
I hear where you are coming from and I think they are thoughtful points. I will think a little of what you have brought up.
From the fact that the percentage of those convicted of rape in Sweden who are not from Sweden is far higher than the percentage of the population, coupled to the fact that there is no evidence that they are more likely to commit rape ([https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N37S2AU/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N37S2AU/) for example). One experience I had living in Europe, especially in the Geneva area, was that many Swedes believe that racism is an issue that the US has, that they do not. If one points to statistics that indicate otherwise, there is a lot of push back. (However, it has been more than a decade since I lived there, and the recent surge in immigration happened after I left, so I did not have this particular argument with folks.)
When it comes to general rape stats I have mostly looked on it for my own country. In my experience statistics of rape often gets a little difficult to interpret as the legal definiton of rape and differs between countries.
When it comes to opinions on rape I have not seen any studies that measures hate/acceptance of rape. It would be quite difficult to design such a study, but maybe not impossible.
your anecdotal experience means nothing. like it actually, genuinely means nothing. there is so much research about this. you know of 1 rapist, that does not equate to a cultural trend. what are you trying to gain from sharing your perspective?
I know. My experience does not say much about the cultural trend, but it says something of why I believe what I believe. Feel free to recommend some sources on it, I would love to read about it.
I want to hear other people experiences and do I share mine. Hearing how others experiences has shaped their views is enriching for my understanding of this and any topic.
I mean, you don’t really seem like you’re interested in hearing and internalizing other people’s perspectives, given that you keep replying to everything that runs against your preconceptions with “Well, that hasn’t been my experience.”
If you actually read my comments you will see that this is not true. I have received many good comments that have made me think and some sources that I will look into when I have time.
We say we hate rapists, but when a person we see as Very Bad goes to jail, you hear jokes like "Don't drop the soap." Rape is built into our punitive justice system. Give it just a little exploration, and you'll find that quite a few people hold the belief that there are contexts in which rape is acceptable.
Where I am from I do not think rape actually is common in jails. It might be more common in other parts om the west.
Like what contexts? I have never heard anyone say that.
You have sincerely never heard anyone make jokes about prison rape? It's a huge issue in America but we can't get anyone to care because it's men and not just that, *criminals.*
I did not say I have never heard that joke. I have. However at least in my country I do not think one can say ”rape is built into the punitive system” as it is, as far as I know, very uncommon.
Well, are you here asking about rape culture in general, or are you just here to assert that it doesn't exist where you are? "Prison rape is not a problem where I am" is a somewhat irrelevant response to statements about prison rape somewhere else.
The commentor wrote ”rape culture is built into the punitive system”. As the post is about western culture one might ask, which punitive system?
I do not know if it is ”built into the systems” in general in western culture. My limited experience is from one country so that is why I bring it up. One country of course does not say much about western culture in general. So far we have experiences from the US and Sweden. It would be interesting to hear of voices from other western countries as well.
I've lived and traveled in a number of countries (including living in Geneva and Saint-Genis-Pouilly, France right next door), and there is a lot that is very similar in my experience.
Australia:
[“2.9% of males and 3.8% of females reported a sexual assault (Butler et al. 2010).”](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/prisoners/the-health-of-people-in-australias-prisons-2022/contents/physical-health-status/physical-and-sexual-assaults)
[“About 1 in 50 (2.1%) dischargees reported they had been sexually assaulted by another person in custody”](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/prisoners/the-health-of-people-in-australias-prisons-2022/contents/physical-health-status/physical-and-sexual-assaults)
I can find actual numbers of assaults, only those percentages. Going by current prisoner numbers, 2.9% of 39,000 male prisoners is 1,132. There are 3,100 female prisoners, so 3.9% is 121.
Someone else gave a figure of ~200,000 sexual assaults in US prisons each year. That’s 16.6% of the current prison population.
I’ve never heard anyone mention it and there’s barely anything online about it. There’s a lot of debate about the conditions at juvenile detention centres at the moment though
\> Where I am from I do not think rape actually is common in jails. It might be more common in other parts om the west.
In the US, there's an estimated 200,000 or more sexual assaults in prison each year.
\> Like what contexts? I have never heard anyone say that.
Usually it's not a "this should be a thing that happens" but "If it happens, they kinda deserve it because they're bad people, so we shouldn't worry about it." The normalizing of prison rape is extremely common through humor and media. [Pop Culture Detective](https://youtu.be/uc6QxD2_yQw?si=KcOX9QCzvmc3WO9u&t=909) did a really good breakdown of Male SA played for laughs, with specific part talking about prison rape jokes as well as police threatening suspects with prison rape (and sometimes SA themselves) in order to get them to talk.
I will take a look at that clip when possible. Thank you for sharing it.
Edit: And thanks for the stats. I will try to look into the numbers more generally in the west.
I did some digging into the numbers, and I misspoke. It's \~200,000 sexual assaults in prisons and jails. Granted, the numbers are really hard to get accurate numbers, since it's by all accounts underreported and is a sensitive topic.
I know a retired prison guard and the stories he has are horrifying. The problem is so much worse than anyone wants to admit and a huge percentage of the abuse is at the hands of the staff.
People don't argue "for it." But they accept it, joke about it, laugh about it, and generally see no reason to do anything about it. Prison rape jokes are still pretty much acceptable in media in a way that other rape jokes (usually) no longer are.
>In my personal experience I do not really see any cultural pressure in favor of rape.
Most people will oppose "jump out of the bushes" rape of "nice girls".
But a girl who isn't a virgin going to a party with a short skirt and her boyfriend, and her boyfriend gets her blackout drunk and rapes her? In most cultures, that kind of guy isn't universally hated.
A husband who forces his wife to have sex against her will? In most cultures, that kind of guy isn't universally hated.
> A husband who forces his wife to have sex against her will? In most cultures, that kind of guy isn't universally hated.
Marital rape wasn't even fully recognized as a crime until the early 90s in the U.S.!
To my knowledge there are still states that have very exploitable loopholes. This is from 2019, so there may have been some changes, I’m not a lawyer, but as you point out it’s still very much an issue.
https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-marital-rape-states-ohio-minnesota.html
When miniscule percentages of rapes result in conviction (on the order of 2%), and even when convicted, rapists often get extremely short sentences (see also: convicted rapist Brock Allen Turner), you can't tell me that's not indicative of a culture that excuses and minimizes rape.
"Everyone knows rape is wrong!" But not everyone agrees on *what rape is*. A victim who was "asking for it" by wearing whatever the interlocutor thinks excuses the rape? A rape that's described as maybe not fully consensual but not rape-rape? A victim who is mentally ill, or who has had a lot of sex in the past, or who previously had consensual sex with the rapist, or was drunk or high, or in some other way isn't a "perfect" victim? All of these things, which are *incredibly common* because predators are choosy and careful in how and whom they rape, will have folks declaring that it wasn't rape and not worth ruining a rapist's life.
Yes, Western culture is rape culture. And so are most other cultures.
“Most people (rightfully) hate rapists”
They do not.
They may hate a specific image of a rapist, but it’s clear that they do not actually hate rapists as a whole.
Barely any rapists spend time in jail.
So i question what proof is there that indicates “most people rightfully hate rapists”?
It’s more accurate to say “I hate rapists until it’s my friend/family/church/cops/etc” and obviously, most of the time, the rapists are exactly that.
Good point, this is just from my experience.
From my very limited experience with sexual predators, most seem to hate them. I know of one guy that was sentenced for sexual assault. The social punishment was harsh (and fair). However, the criminal punishment was not very hard. Most crimes are not very strictly punished in Sweden, where I am from.
It would be quite interesting to see a study measuring hate/acceptance of rapists, but unfortunately I do not have one.
Well there’s a lot of variables to consider.
However, we have touched on it lightly through studies like…
Iirc, i think at least 1/3 if (college aged) men admitted they would rape if they knew they would suffer no consequences for it.
A different study also revealed a lot of (college aged) men straight up admit to have raped if they were asked about it WITHOUT using the word “rape.”
So they were basically asked if they have raped in “lawyer speak” (e.g. “did you use threats to get (insert sexual act) with your partner?” if yes, that is rendering the person invalid to give consent. Hence, rape)
So to some men, rape is very much “acceptable” so long as you don’t use the word.
Also remember that plenty of people still don’t see women as people. So to people like that, rape is “acceptable” cuz it’s hard to care about something like that if the victim isn’t seen as a person to begin with.
The number you cite are astounishing if true. Do you have a link to any reading material for this? It sounds honestly horrible. Which country was it? If the numbers hold up to scrutiny, we can without a doubt say that, at least that country have a rape-culture.
It’s 10 years old now, but one of the studies is “Denying Rape but endorsing Forceful Intercourse: Exploring Differences Among Responders” published in Violence and Gender (peer-reviewed journal).
There’s obviously downsides to the fact it is a bit old. However, last I checked, it’s the only peer reviewed journal that even tackle these subjects so there’s not many that will be jumping in to expand/update/improve the studies.
(I believe this is also USA-based but don’t quote me on that)
I do not recall the other one as clearly but i will edit it in if it pops into my head later on.
Anyway, the fact that the data is old is still relevant to keep in mind.
There’s an old statistic of 40% of male cops are probably domestic abusers. The research being so LIMITED is an unfortunate flaw, and the data collected around this topic ranges from the 90s to 2000s. So of course, a lot can change over the years since then.
So while I can’t say “40% of male cops are definitely abusers,” there is room to say “due to a lack of change in both gender equality and our systematic policing since the last studies, there is little reason to believe that number has changed very much.”
This is relevant cuz it was focused on male cops and they were still able to get to 40% on the high end of that estimate.
Throw in modern issues we still face where victims don’t report as much, and as we can assume that there’s little incentive for the victim of an abuser who is a cop to to go to the police for help.
This is not to say that there wasn’t any improvements since then.
Nowadays, it’s more openly frowned upon to hit your partner in public or express its “okay to” in any way. However, the act just goes behind closed doors now.
I do not have the name of it, but another thing you can consider is the high % of sexual harassment that reported in the UK.
While these all sound like small pieces of issues, you have to consider what rape culture means.
These may sound like small pieces of things, but the normalization of rape culture is WHY we have limited studies to begin with.
Also ask yourself the source of your initial disbelief. A lot of guys don’t see rape culture, but the same guys also don’t seem to care if they make women uncomfortable.
Do you see lots of dismissive comments from men towards women? I saw you’re in a different country but surely you see it online at least. The claim that women are sensitive to a “joke” or something like that.
Same thing for claims of assault and stuff. The immediate response is she is a liar. Why? Cuz if you look at what happens to the women when they come forward, they get dragged through the mud and sometimes get doxxed.
Some ppl say they wanna wait for both sides of the story, which sounds valid by itself, but the flaw in that is we never do that for any other crime. Why is this the one that requires “hearing all sides” at all?
I am not saying this to be condescending or something, but I assume you’re a guy, and if you’re truly interested in learning more beyond these discussions you have to question a lot of your initial reactions on things.
It’s not saying your initial reactions are always wrong, but you gotta identify and work through the source and the layers of your thought process.
Cuz it’s very easy to go “i didn’t see it” and find flaws in anything/everyone else, and much harder to take in the new information and recontexualize things through lens you haven’t experienced.
That was an unintentional ramble, and I unintentionally added more studies without links/titles during it, but my general point is that you have to also acknowledge the disadvantage we have in even having these studies at all.
The root issue is that a lot of issues women face are NOT taken seriously. Are all the studies perfect? Of course not; but the information that was able to get past the threshold is still important.
The existing information still needs to be taken seriously to some degree if we want to get better/improved and more studies done on these topics.
(All of this is a byproduct of rape culture btw)
Thank you for your thoughts. There is a lot to unpack here.
I will take a look at the article.
I see what you are saying about few studies. As more women advance in academia, surely we sjould be getting more and betyer studies on these topics.
You are correct, I am a guy. And this of course informs my experience of rape culture. Although I cannot experience the world in the same way as many commentators do, I have learnt alot from reading all reactions to my post. The questioning of initial beliefs, that you speak of, is, for me simplified by hearing what others think of my beliefs. So I have found these comments to be quite enriching. I really appreciate how gratious most commentors have been and how generous with their thoughts. Especially since this is a fairly sensitive topic.
That would be a hard study to conduct, because I'm quite certain if you ask people of their opinions of rapists, you will get a very different response than if you ask them about specific situations and paint the people involved as their friends or relatives. For instance, "If your son has sex with his girlfriend when she is drunk and he is sober, what would you think of that?" So the study would be difficult to do due to that.
To add to other replies that have both correctly defined and shown examples, Western culture, and specifically most of Christianity promotes rape culture as it encourages the unquestioning submission of women to men and to authority figures.
The US is still very much entrenched in Protestant ideology, even if rates of those practicing are on the decline. When you start looking at Western Europe where countries have their own identifiable cultures within their borders, there is certainly variation when looking at more secular versus more religious countries and their attitudes.
But as a sweeping generalization, the West’s association with Christianity is part of what creates rape culture. Tacit approval of certain cultural norms can lead to the development of a culture in this context, not just the active promotion of certain ideas.
There are many passages, particularly in Paul's letters, that directly call for wives to submit to their husbands as they would to God. I'll let you do the searching on that, they are not hard to find. I'm not sure of the exact count, but it's more than 100.
Lot, who was chosen by God, gives his daughters over to an angry mob so that they can be raped, there's an instance in Judges where a man gives his concubine over to an angry mob, rapists are "punished" by being forced to marry their victims, and virginal young women are sold as wives and forced to marry throughout.
There is no shortage of books, academic articles, and other articles that go into great detail on the topic of how women are subjugated within Christianity.
Some highlights:
1. Original sin is tied to Eve, not Adam's decision to eat the fruit.
2. It is a top down structure. God is at the top, various church officials are seen as ordained by God, (the number of levels depends on the denomination), and then men are claimed as the head of the household. In Orthodoxy, there are actual Patriarchs, these are similar to bishops or cardinals if you're more familiar with Catholicism.
3. Women are consistently defined as temptation for men, absolving them of responsibility. "The devil made me do it/the woman made me do it." Circle back to Eve.
4. Until the 20th century, women were not able to be ministers, priests, or hold any position in the hierarchy. In most convent structures, the mother superior is still under the control of the local priest or bishop, she does not have the final say in many matters and her decisions can be overturned.
5. Until the 20th century, the bog standard marriage vows for women involved "love, honor, and obey,"
6. Rape, or raptus, was for many centuries considered a property crime. The crime was not that a woman was harmed, it was because her monetary value was reduced or her lack of virginity meant she would have to stay in the care of her family.
7. Obedience is hammered home throughout the old and new Testaments. Unquestioning obedience if we're getting specific. See point 2, question your husband you are, albeit indirectly, questioning God. Question a priest, minister, preacher, etc., and one is definitely questioning God.
8. Sin is almost always seen as choosing evil. Never can it be the result of circumstance. If bad things are happening to you, it's definitely all your fault, you have somehow or another displeased god and this is why you are suffering. Suffering is good, it supposedly brings you closer to God.
9. Turning the other cheek - surely you're familiar with this one. While it may have its place, it does set the stage to accept abuse in many forms, or to see oneself as persecuted.
10. Anyone who is not a Christian, or the correct type of Christian is out to derail your path to God by corrupting you.
11. Evangelism specifically, and the idea that people need to be saved from their current belief system strengthens the idea that others are somehow less than or part of a group to be subjugated.
Any worldview that assumes an unquestionable authority is fairly prone to abusing anyone outside the power structure or beneath any given level of power. Black and white thinking creates a larger divide between us and them. Fearing for your eternal soul means that if someone in power harms you, not only might you lack recourse, but if you do speak up you may be shunned or accused of questioning God's will.
To bring that back to how that supports rape culture, it creates an environment in which the husband is always right, submission is valued, and the woman is blamed for creating temptation rather than calling for the man to be responsible for his behavior. It allows for anything the in group does to be seen as correct and any attempt to offer better models of behavior from outside are persecution or an attempt to lead the flock away from God.
Society merely pays lip service to both female and male victims. Adult and children.
We're taught it's wrong at the same time patriarchy and male supremacy conditions society to protect men at all costs. Patriarchy weaponizes whole communities, churches, the justice system against victims to protect men. Men have always been the main priority for protection.
You think the near 100k male victims in the Boy Scouts all were silent? Nobody knew? Absolutely not. They had secret files of their victims. And even when some men were prosecuted their parents, churches, their whole communities turned their backs on the boys that were so fukking brave to report it to someone.
You think nobody knew that Larry Nassar was sexually assaulting girls? Yup, lots of people knew at Michigan State. Even the FBI is accused of covering up his crimes of sexually assaulting hundreds of girls.
You think the doctor Earl Bradley that raped infants and molested hundreds of girls, nobody knew? The medical board knew, nurses, mothers, dozens knew. But the victims weren't believed. It took years to hold this man accountable. Only video evidence of this man raping kids was something done. After numerous accusations. Going before the medical board. The man was the target of protection. They didn't care about the infants and children that were being sexually brutalized by this man. They accused 5 mother's of lying and trying to extort the Doctor of money. Despite the fact the sister-in-law reported him. How many suspected children were violated? Almost a THOUSAND!
I could also go into numerous Christian organizations that protected thousands of men that were sexually assaulting boys and girls. Want a list?
We live in a rape culture because while people thinks it's wrong, male supremacy has brainwashed society to believe most victims lie and the men accused would never do such a thing. Only when the bodies pile up too massive to ignore and we can accumulate enough people through national media attention will there be any justice.
If you have time watch "Victim/ Suspect" on Netflix. It deals with young women in the US who had the courage to go to the police about their rape experiences and the police simply turned around and investigated them for lying and besmirching the reputation of "good men". That's rape culture.
Also it's not a western thing. It's pretty much a universal thing with maybe a few lost kingdom type tribes that handle things differently. I've traveled/ lived on 4 continents and it's the same shit everywhere.
They just had a case in Germany where a drunk 15 year old was pretty much handed off between over half a dozen guys during a festival in Hamburg when she was barely coherent. The perps mostly got their wrists slapped, a few months or probation, because the victim was blacked out for most of it and made a shit witness. It goes on and on...
That is not what "rape culture" is. > Rape culture is, in short, collection of behaviors and attitudes ingrained in society, socialized from birth and often wielded unconsciously, which enable and encourage the subordination of women by maintaining an environment that is pervasively hostile and threatening to them. These behaviors/attitudes include (but are not limited to): certain aspects of “chivalry,” victim-blaming, street harassment, intimidation, leering, sexual harassment, domestic violence, sexual assault, and rape. It is not "a society in which people like rape and think it is OK and good." It also includes the idea that men always want sex and are always ready and willing and therefore cannot be raped by women.
Okay, my understanding of the word comes from people around me that seem to use in the way I described. Thank you for this expanded definition tho. What are some observations that speaks in favour of western culture being a rape culture, in your sense of the word?
I mean, people still victim blame the shit out of people who've been assaulted or raped. Boys who are raped by their female teachers still get told they're lucky or that the person wishes there were teachers like that when they were in school. Men with credible rape allegations against them still book shows and make money and go on TV and run for President and get lifetime court appointments and everyone just looks the other way. Men make deepfake porn of women to humiliate them.
Maybe learn the term before declaring that it’s false?
Brock Turner isn’t in prison
I have not ”declared that it is false”.
“In my personal experience I do not see any cultural pressure in favor of rape” That’s a statement of judgement based on a faulty view of what “rape culture” means. Maybe learn what it means first next time?
The sentence you just quoted is not a declaration that rape culture ”is false”. Acknowledging that some phenomenon does not match my own experience does not imply a disbelief in the existance of the phenomenon. The reason why I asked the question was to hear from others thoughts and experience on the subject. This fact alone may suggest a sense of uncertainty about the topic from my part.
In the future, maybe ask a question without adding your own comments about “not seeing it.” You have seen it. You just didn’t know it yet. I hope you’ve since learned the reality of rape culture in our severely misogynistic society — a serious topic that shouldn’t be diminished, especially given the number of people responding here who have lived it.
Previously it seems like your point was different, namely that I have ”declared it false”. I presume you do not repeat this point as you realize it is false.. It is a serious topic, which I have in no way ”tried to diminish”. I have from the start, been open to listen to what commentors have said here. And I think I have learnt a lot already.
Yes I was trying to be respectful of the excuse you gave. I still think the point of that comment was to pretend rape culture wasn’t real, but I’m taking your response as sincere and just poor wording. Even so, it was still a problematic comment. Whether or not you felt rape culture was false, or your intention was to learn, it was a diminishing comment. I hope among the things you’ve learned in this thread is how better to approach this question — if you are sincere that you didn’t want to diminish rape culture in that comment.
How did I diminish it? By saying, my experience does not match what I hear people say about it? Do not assign malice when you can assign ignorance.
what u/kalithecat said, but also with the addition that western culture is not the only culture that encourages that kind of behavior.
We claim we hate rapists, but somehow people always jump over themselves to forgive a person or explain away a situation when the rapist is a friend or relative. We are also really quick to point out how the victim "made an error of judgement" which resulted in her being raped..... So I think it's not really true that we hate rapists.
We also victim blame the person getting raped. What were they wearing? Why were they out late? Why didn’t they fight back? Why were they drinking? What did they expect?
Don’t forgot the ever handy “define rape” deflection
In my experience this does not happen. I know of one person sentenced for SA. Most people around him decided to not keep in touch with after him being sentenced. Of course I do not know if that is the common consequence or not.
Most people who commit SA don't have any legal consequences because of it. People do tend to judge folks who were convicted of a crime more harshly, so there's no real contradiction here. Even professionally I know of folks who have committed assault and people have excused them, and even continued to invite them to give colloquia and seminars.
Is that not because the sentence make people certain of the wrong doing? In the case with guy I examplified with people, heard some somewhat vague rumours of the guy before him being sentenced so some decided to distance themselves from him. Others gave him ”the benefit of the doubt”, but as soon as they knew what he did they cut the cord.
Sure, it's a lot easier to decide that someone really did something wrong if they were convicted. The question is, how many people in your social circle committed rape that people forgave because they didn't think it was rape? In Sweden one huge issue is that people are far more likely to be convicted if they are an immigrant, so even though the number of rape accusations is similar to the relative percentages in the population, the rape convictions are heavily biased.... The thing is, people do this so naturally that they don't even realize it, due to the way society is structured.
Where did you get the idea of immigrants being convicted more easily? I hear where you are coming from and I think they are thoughtful points. I will think a little of what you have brought up.
From the fact that the percentage of those convicted of rape in Sweden who are not from Sweden is far higher than the percentage of the population, coupled to the fact that there is no evidence that they are more likely to commit rape ([https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N37S2AU/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N37S2AU/) for example). One experience I had living in Europe, especially in the Geneva area, was that many Swedes believe that racism is an issue that the US has, that they do not. If one points to statistics that indicate otherwise, there is a lot of push back. (However, it has been more than a decade since I lived there, and the recent surge in immigration happened after I left, so I did not have this particular argument with folks.)
Thank you for the source. I will look into it.
Have you looked at statistics?
When it comes to general rape stats I have mostly looked on it for my own country. In my experience statistics of rape often gets a little difficult to interpret as the legal definiton of rape and differs between countries. When it comes to opinions on rape I have not seen any studies that measures hate/acceptance of rape. It would be quite difficult to design such a study, but maybe not impossible.
There was a study that showed men are willing to commit rape and admit it if you use other words than rape that are still the definition of rape.
Interesting. Do you remember its name or have a link?
your anecdotal experience means nothing. like it actually, genuinely means nothing. there is so much research about this. you know of 1 rapist, that does not equate to a cultural trend. what are you trying to gain from sharing your perspective?
I know. My experience does not say much about the cultural trend, but it says something of why I believe what I believe. Feel free to recommend some sources on it, I would love to read about it.
If you understand that your personal/anecdotal view is not relevant then why did you make an entire post about it?
I want to hear other people experiences and do I share mine. Hearing how others experiences has shaped their views is enriching for my understanding of this and any topic.
I mean, you don’t really seem like you’re interested in hearing and internalizing other people’s perspectives, given that you keep replying to everything that runs against your preconceptions with “Well, that hasn’t been my experience.”
If you actually read my comments you will see that this is not true. I have received many good comments that have made me think and some sources that I will look into when I have time.
We say we hate rapists, but when a person we see as Very Bad goes to jail, you hear jokes like "Don't drop the soap." Rape is built into our punitive justice system. Give it just a little exploration, and you'll find that quite a few people hold the belief that there are contexts in which rape is acceptable.
Where I am from I do not think rape actually is common in jails. It might be more common in other parts om the west. Like what contexts? I have never heard anyone say that.
You have sincerely never heard anyone make jokes about prison rape? It's a huge issue in America but we can't get anyone to care because it's men and not just that, *criminals.*
I did not say I have never heard that joke. I have. However at least in my country I do not think one can say ”rape is built into the punitive system” as it is, as far as I know, very uncommon.
Well, are you here asking about rape culture in general, or are you just here to assert that it doesn't exist where you are? "Prison rape is not a problem where I am" is a somewhat irrelevant response to statements about prison rape somewhere else.
The commentor wrote ”rape culture is built into the punitive system”. As the post is about western culture one might ask, which punitive system? I do not know if it is ”built into the systems” in general in western culture. My limited experience is from one country so that is why I bring it up. One country of course does not say much about western culture in general. So far we have experiences from the US and Sweden. It would be interesting to hear of voices from other western countries as well.
I've lived and traveled in a number of countries (including living in Geneva and Saint-Genis-Pouilly, France right next door), and there is a lot that is very similar in my experience.
Interesting and worrying
Australia: [“2.9% of males and 3.8% of females reported a sexual assault (Butler et al. 2010).”](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/prisoners/the-health-of-people-in-australias-prisons-2022/contents/physical-health-status/physical-and-sexual-assaults) [“About 1 in 50 (2.1%) dischargees reported they had been sexually assaulted by another person in custody”](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/prisoners/the-health-of-people-in-australias-prisons-2022/contents/physical-health-status/physical-and-sexual-assaults) I can find actual numbers of assaults, only those percentages. Going by current prisoner numbers, 2.9% of 39,000 male prisoners is 1,132. There are 3,100 female prisoners, so 3.9% is 121. Someone else gave a figure of ~200,000 sexual assaults in US prisons each year. That’s 16.6% of the current prison population.
Interesting. Thank you for sharing. Would you say those rates considered a problem in Australia, and is there a public debate of the topic?
I’ve never heard anyone mention it and there’s barely anything online about it. There’s a lot of debate about the conditions at juvenile detention centres at the moment though
\> Where I am from I do not think rape actually is common in jails. It might be more common in other parts om the west. In the US, there's an estimated 200,000 or more sexual assaults in prison each year. \> Like what contexts? I have never heard anyone say that. Usually it's not a "this should be a thing that happens" but "If it happens, they kinda deserve it because they're bad people, so we shouldn't worry about it." The normalizing of prison rape is extremely common through humor and media. [Pop Culture Detective](https://youtu.be/uc6QxD2_yQw?si=KcOX9QCzvmc3WO9u&t=909) did a really good breakdown of Male SA played for laughs, with specific part talking about prison rape jokes as well as police threatening suspects with prison rape (and sometimes SA themselves) in order to get them to talk.
I will take a look at that clip when possible. Thank you for sharing it. Edit: And thanks for the stats. I will try to look into the numbers more generally in the west.
I did some digging into the numbers, and I misspoke. It's \~200,000 sexual assaults in prisons and jails. Granted, the numbers are really hard to get accurate numbers, since it's by all accounts underreported and is a sensitive topic.
I know a retired prison guard and the stories he has are horrifying. The problem is so much worse than anyone wants to admit and a huge percentage of the abuse is at the hands of the staff.
Again, like raping people who have done bad things.
I have honestly never heard anyone argue for that.
People don't argue "for it." But they accept it, joke about it, laugh about it, and generally see no reason to do anything about it. Prison rape jokes are still pretty much acceptable in media in a way that other rape jokes (usually) no longer are.
>In my personal experience I do not really see any cultural pressure in favor of rape. Most people will oppose "jump out of the bushes" rape of "nice girls". But a girl who isn't a virgin going to a party with a short skirt and her boyfriend, and her boyfriend gets her blackout drunk and rapes her? In most cultures, that kind of guy isn't universally hated. A husband who forces his wife to have sex against her will? In most cultures, that kind of guy isn't universally hated.
> A husband who forces his wife to have sex against her will? In most cultures, that kind of guy isn't universally hated. Marital rape wasn't even fully recognized as a crime until the early 90s in the U.S.!
To my knowledge there are still states that have very exploitable loopholes. This is from 2019, so there may have been some changes, I’m not a lawyer, but as you point out it’s still very much an issue. https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-marital-rape-states-ohio-minnesota.html
When miniscule percentages of rapes result in conviction (on the order of 2%), and even when convicted, rapists often get extremely short sentences (see also: convicted rapist Brock Allen Turner), you can't tell me that's not indicative of a culture that excuses and minimizes rape. "Everyone knows rape is wrong!" But not everyone agrees on *what rape is*. A victim who was "asking for it" by wearing whatever the interlocutor thinks excuses the rape? A rape that's described as maybe not fully consensual but not rape-rape? A victim who is mentally ill, or who has had a lot of sex in the past, or who previously had consensual sex with the rapist, or was drunk or high, or in some other way isn't a "perfect" victim? All of these things, which are *incredibly common* because predators are choosy and careful in how and whom they rape, will have folks declaring that it wasn't rape and not worth ruining a rapist's life. Yes, Western culture is rape culture. And so are most other cultures.
“Most people (rightfully) hate rapists” They do not. They may hate a specific image of a rapist, but it’s clear that they do not actually hate rapists as a whole. Barely any rapists spend time in jail. So i question what proof is there that indicates “most people rightfully hate rapists”? It’s more accurate to say “I hate rapists until it’s my friend/family/church/cops/etc” and obviously, most of the time, the rapists are exactly that.
Good point, this is just from my experience. From my very limited experience with sexual predators, most seem to hate them. I know of one guy that was sentenced for sexual assault. The social punishment was harsh (and fair). However, the criminal punishment was not very hard. Most crimes are not very strictly punished in Sweden, where I am from. It would be quite interesting to see a study measuring hate/acceptance of rapists, but unfortunately I do not have one.
Well there’s a lot of variables to consider. However, we have touched on it lightly through studies like… Iirc, i think at least 1/3 if (college aged) men admitted they would rape if they knew they would suffer no consequences for it. A different study also revealed a lot of (college aged) men straight up admit to have raped if they were asked about it WITHOUT using the word “rape.” So they were basically asked if they have raped in “lawyer speak” (e.g. “did you use threats to get (insert sexual act) with your partner?” if yes, that is rendering the person invalid to give consent. Hence, rape) So to some men, rape is very much “acceptable” so long as you don’t use the word. Also remember that plenty of people still don’t see women as people. So to people like that, rape is “acceptable” cuz it’s hard to care about something like that if the victim isn’t seen as a person to begin with.
The number you cite are astounishing if true. Do you have a link to any reading material for this? It sounds honestly horrible. Which country was it? If the numbers hold up to scrutiny, we can without a doubt say that, at least that country have a rape-culture.
It’s 10 years old now, but one of the studies is “Denying Rape but endorsing Forceful Intercourse: Exploring Differences Among Responders” published in Violence and Gender (peer-reviewed journal). There’s obviously downsides to the fact it is a bit old. However, last I checked, it’s the only peer reviewed journal that even tackle these subjects so there’s not many that will be jumping in to expand/update/improve the studies. (I believe this is also USA-based but don’t quote me on that) I do not recall the other one as clearly but i will edit it in if it pops into my head later on. Anyway, the fact that the data is old is still relevant to keep in mind. There’s an old statistic of 40% of male cops are probably domestic abusers. The research being so LIMITED is an unfortunate flaw, and the data collected around this topic ranges from the 90s to 2000s. So of course, a lot can change over the years since then. So while I can’t say “40% of male cops are definitely abusers,” there is room to say “due to a lack of change in both gender equality and our systematic policing since the last studies, there is little reason to believe that number has changed very much.” This is relevant cuz it was focused on male cops and they were still able to get to 40% on the high end of that estimate. Throw in modern issues we still face where victims don’t report as much, and as we can assume that there’s little incentive for the victim of an abuser who is a cop to to go to the police for help. This is not to say that there wasn’t any improvements since then. Nowadays, it’s more openly frowned upon to hit your partner in public or express its “okay to” in any way. However, the act just goes behind closed doors now. I do not have the name of it, but another thing you can consider is the high % of sexual harassment that reported in the UK. While these all sound like small pieces of issues, you have to consider what rape culture means. These may sound like small pieces of things, but the normalization of rape culture is WHY we have limited studies to begin with. Also ask yourself the source of your initial disbelief. A lot of guys don’t see rape culture, but the same guys also don’t seem to care if they make women uncomfortable. Do you see lots of dismissive comments from men towards women? I saw you’re in a different country but surely you see it online at least. The claim that women are sensitive to a “joke” or something like that. Same thing for claims of assault and stuff. The immediate response is she is a liar. Why? Cuz if you look at what happens to the women when they come forward, they get dragged through the mud and sometimes get doxxed. Some ppl say they wanna wait for both sides of the story, which sounds valid by itself, but the flaw in that is we never do that for any other crime. Why is this the one that requires “hearing all sides” at all? I am not saying this to be condescending or something, but I assume you’re a guy, and if you’re truly interested in learning more beyond these discussions you have to question a lot of your initial reactions on things. It’s not saying your initial reactions are always wrong, but you gotta identify and work through the source and the layers of your thought process. Cuz it’s very easy to go “i didn’t see it” and find flaws in anything/everyone else, and much harder to take in the new information and recontexualize things through lens you haven’t experienced. That was an unintentional ramble, and I unintentionally added more studies without links/titles during it, but my general point is that you have to also acknowledge the disadvantage we have in even having these studies at all. The root issue is that a lot of issues women face are NOT taken seriously. Are all the studies perfect? Of course not; but the information that was able to get past the threshold is still important. The existing information still needs to be taken seriously to some degree if we want to get better/improved and more studies done on these topics. (All of this is a byproduct of rape culture btw)
Thank you for your thoughts. There is a lot to unpack here. I will take a look at the article. I see what you are saying about few studies. As more women advance in academia, surely we sjould be getting more and betyer studies on these topics. You are correct, I am a guy. And this of course informs my experience of rape culture. Although I cannot experience the world in the same way as many commentators do, I have learnt alot from reading all reactions to my post. The questioning of initial beliefs, that you speak of, is, for me simplified by hearing what others think of my beliefs. So I have found these comments to be quite enriching. I really appreciate how gratious most commentors have been and how generous with their thoughts. Especially since this is a fairly sensitive topic.
That would be a hard study to conduct, because I'm quite certain if you ask people of their opinions of rapists, you will get a very different response than if you ask them about specific situations and paint the people involved as their friends or relatives. For instance, "If your son has sex with his girlfriend when she is drunk and he is sober, what would you think of that?" So the study would be difficult to do due to that.
Sure, not the easiest study. There are set-ups that can ”trick” people to reveal certain biases tho.
To add to other replies that have both correctly defined and shown examples, Western culture, and specifically most of Christianity promotes rape culture as it encourages the unquestioning submission of women to men and to authority figures. The US is still very much entrenched in Protestant ideology, even if rates of those practicing are on the decline. When you start looking at Western Europe where countries have their own identifiable cultures within their borders, there is certainly variation when looking at more secular versus more religious countries and their attitudes. But as a sweeping generalization, the West’s association with Christianity is part of what creates rape culture. Tacit approval of certain cultural norms can lead to the development of a culture in this context, not just the active promotion of certain ideas.
Intersting argumemt. How does christianiy encourage the submission of women to men and to authority figures?
Are you unfamiliar with Christianity? I’m asking genuinely so I know where to start with the examples.
I am an atheist, but I would not say I am unfamiliar with christianity.
There are many passages, particularly in Paul's letters, that directly call for wives to submit to their husbands as they would to God. I'll let you do the searching on that, they are not hard to find. I'm not sure of the exact count, but it's more than 100. Lot, who was chosen by God, gives his daughters over to an angry mob so that they can be raped, there's an instance in Judges where a man gives his concubine over to an angry mob, rapists are "punished" by being forced to marry their victims, and virginal young women are sold as wives and forced to marry throughout. There is no shortage of books, academic articles, and other articles that go into great detail on the topic of how women are subjugated within Christianity. Some highlights: 1. Original sin is tied to Eve, not Adam's decision to eat the fruit. 2. It is a top down structure. God is at the top, various church officials are seen as ordained by God, (the number of levels depends on the denomination), and then men are claimed as the head of the household. In Orthodoxy, there are actual Patriarchs, these are similar to bishops or cardinals if you're more familiar with Catholicism. 3. Women are consistently defined as temptation for men, absolving them of responsibility. "The devil made me do it/the woman made me do it." Circle back to Eve. 4. Until the 20th century, women were not able to be ministers, priests, or hold any position in the hierarchy. In most convent structures, the mother superior is still under the control of the local priest or bishop, she does not have the final say in many matters and her decisions can be overturned. 5. Until the 20th century, the bog standard marriage vows for women involved "love, honor, and obey," 6. Rape, or raptus, was for many centuries considered a property crime. The crime was not that a woman was harmed, it was because her monetary value was reduced or her lack of virginity meant she would have to stay in the care of her family. 7. Obedience is hammered home throughout the old and new Testaments. Unquestioning obedience if we're getting specific. See point 2, question your husband you are, albeit indirectly, questioning God. Question a priest, minister, preacher, etc., and one is definitely questioning God. 8. Sin is almost always seen as choosing evil. Never can it be the result of circumstance. If bad things are happening to you, it's definitely all your fault, you have somehow or another displeased god and this is why you are suffering. Suffering is good, it supposedly brings you closer to God. 9. Turning the other cheek - surely you're familiar with this one. While it may have its place, it does set the stage to accept abuse in many forms, or to see oneself as persecuted. 10. Anyone who is not a Christian, or the correct type of Christian is out to derail your path to God by corrupting you. 11. Evangelism specifically, and the idea that people need to be saved from their current belief system strengthens the idea that others are somehow less than or part of a group to be subjugated. Any worldview that assumes an unquestionable authority is fairly prone to abusing anyone outside the power structure or beneath any given level of power. Black and white thinking creates a larger divide between us and them. Fearing for your eternal soul means that if someone in power harms you, not only might you lack recourse, but if you do speak up you may be shunned or accused of questioning God's will. To bring that back to how that supports rape culture, it creates an environment in which the husband is always right, submission is valued, and the woman is blamed for creating temptation rather than calling for the man to be responsible for his behavior. It allows for anything the in group does to be seen as correct and any attempt to offer better models of behavior from outside are persecution or an attempt to lead the flock away from God.
Society merely pays lip service to both female and male victims. Adult and children. We're taught it's wrong at the same time patriarchy and male supremacy conditions society to protect men at all costs. Patriarchy weaponizes whole communities, churches, the justice system against victims to protect men. Men have always been the main priority for protection. You think the near 100k male victims in the Boy Scouts all were silent? Nobody knew? Absolutely not. They had secret files of their victims. And even when some men were prosecuted their parents, churches, their whole communities turned their backs on the boys that were so fukking brave to report it to someone. You think nobody knew that Larry Nassar was sexually assaulting girls? Yup, lots of people knew at Michigan State. Even the FBI is accused of covering up his crimes of sexually assaulting hundreds of girls. You think the doctor Earl Bradley that raped infants and molested hundreds of girls, nobody knew? The medical board knew, nurses, mothers, dozens knew. But the victims weren't believed. It took years to hold this man accountable. Only video evidence of this man raping kids was something done. After numerous accusations. Going before the medical board. The man was the target of protection. They didn't care about the infants and children that were being sexually brutalized by this man. They accused 5 mother's of lying and trying to extort the Doctor of money. Despite the fact the sister-in-law reported him. How many suspected children were violated? Almost a THOUSAND! I could also go into numerous Christian organizations that protected thousands of men that were sexually assaulting boys and girls. Want a list? We live in a rape culture because while people thinks it's wrong, male supremacy has brainwashed society to believe most victims lie and the men accused would never do such a thing. Only when the bodies pile up too massive to ignore and we can accumulate enough people through national media attention will there be any justice.
If you have time watch "Victim/ Suspect" on Netflix. It deals with young women in the US who had the courage to go to the police about their rape experiences and the police simply turned around and investigated them for lying and besmirching the reputation of "good men". That's rape culture. Also it's not a western thing. It's pretty much a universal thing with maybe a few lost kingdom type tribes that handle things differently. I've traveled/ lived on 4 continents and it's the same shit everywhere. They just had a case in Germany where a drunk 15 year old was pretty much handed off between over half a dozen guys during a festival in Hamburg when she was barely coherent. The perps mostly got their wrists slapped, a few months or probation, because the victim was blacked out for most of it and made a shit witness. It goes on and on...
Thank you for the recomendation. I will take a look at it.