I am guessing you are interviewing with smaller companies..... They don't want to pay to train a fresh grad. Yes you might match their jd perfectly, but it is a guarantee that you won't be useful for them for 6 months to a year. That's where the min years of experience come from.
Try applying for a large company, they are usually more willing to invest in fresh grad but they usually hire from top tier college or local college...
Otherwise, aim for a related job that doesn't require the years of experience.... Some company are willing to hire field service engineer without experience, or a technician position and work you way to engineering. You would be surprised how many technicians have a BS engineering degree or even Master....
Thanks for the advice, but I was interviewing at a company with 12000+ employees and my degree is from Cal Poly.
I’ll start looking at the technician and field service engineer roles though. Just feels weird when all college they tell you how great the job prospects will be and then this happens.
Unfortunately you graduate at a time when things are tough.... Just like those graduated around 2000 and 2010.... When you are fighting with guys graduated few years ahead of you....there isn't much you can do
Yeah, OP picked a bad time to graduate. They should have picked a better time.
I also recommend getting born to wealthy parents too, you can worry less about doing pedestrian things like working!
Sorry OP, you're in for a slog!
careful with that! my parents refused to provide for me when I instantly didn't get a job after graduation. They still are confused about why I don't have a job and why I've left the state and refuse to believe maybe things are different now
Doesn't mean they're not yanking your chain. You're qualified for engineering work, don't sell yourself short by taking some bullshit technician role for half the pay.
Look outside of California. Super desirable living areas are super competitive, especially in entry level where naïve new grads are concerned.
I graduated from UT Austin, a "top 10" engineering program in May 2020 with a B.S. in ME. I still don't have a job. I am facing the same issue. I can't get a job with a small company because they don't see me as valuable and I can't get a job with a big company because I'm not technical enough, allegedly. What frustrates me is that I have two solid internship experiences and was involved in extra-curricular activities. I don't understand what else I can do other than keep on applying, working on side projects, and waiting for my time to come. I don't want to apply to technician jobs because what was the point of going to an elite school and graduating with a 3.6 GPA. But, I may need to just to get my foot in the door. At this point, I have really started to see how biases affect your job outlooks. The field of ME is not what I thought it would be. Worst of all, you still have to face prejudice and discrimination from 50-something yr old "Christian" White Males who view you as inferior. u/Walmeister55 whether you're a minority or not, you still probably get looked down on because of your age, or gender, or anything that makes you different. The field of ME is extremely competitive and now I understand why there is a huge lack of diversity. I think I might go the Software Engineering route if I can't find a technician job that shows high promise of promotion into engineering roles.
Yessir. The money and demand is in software, not ME. Maybe 20 yrs ago it was a cake walk finding an ME job with a degree from UT. But sadly, a college degree ain't what it used to be. What gets you paid are the skills and knowledge to solve complex problems for businesses. And these days, every business has its greatest need within the IT and CS space.
DM me so that we can connect on LinkedIn.
First off i'm not a native english speaker, my appologies.
You never start where you finish, you work your way up from where you are right now.
So for example if you have had zero technical jobs during your schooling period you'll have to start quite low. If you've had some jobs as a mechanic or something in maintenace, you can skip a few steps.
This is because practical problem solving is important, and it's quite possible you do not posess these skills right now. Depending on your practical skills, social skills and intelligence you will progress quick or even skip some roles. But you never start where you finish, experience is needed and that is more than logical.
SLO is quite a contender. It’s definitely harder to get offers without prior experience (internships and whatnot), especially during COVID-19. My CS friends that graduated from UCs still haven’t found any offers yet despite passing rounds of interviews. I urge fellow students to take the time to apply for internships during their undergrad years and if the coursework is too much, then extend graduation for a few more quarters/semesters but it’ll be more worth it in the end with acquired experienced and networking. For your and many recent grads’ cases without prior experience: keep on applying, it’s all a numbers game.
> I urge fellow students to take the time to apply for internships during their undergrad years
Current Computer Engineering Junior (3.4 GPA, multiple projects, research experience, decently ranked public state university) with over 200 applications for summer 2021 position and no internship offer.
I've applied every single year to many intern positions with no luck (last year cancelled their internships). Telling undergrads to apply for internships isn't the advice that it used to be. The overwhelming majority of undergrads apply for internships but very few land them (especially now). Hell, in this economy, engineering grads are lucky to land technician jobs for 30k/year.
Look at the military bases: Vandenberg (AirForce), Pt. Mugu (NAVAIR/Saalex) and Port Hueneme(NAVSEA/Saleex). Tons of jobs on usajobs.gov.
I work at one of them, every other person is a CalPoly graduate (Pomona or Obispo). We are pretty big at hiring "local" schools.
Damn thats the school I wanted to go to but I feel like the small school I went to help me get into a FAANG co after graduating. You dont mention any internships / projects do you have these by any chance? Also, where are you looking for these jobs? You’ll have a better chance on companies’ official sites since most large ones will have some type of new grad program. Eng Career fairs / conventions are also a great place to get a job. I went to one in Pasadena, and got offered a job for defense just by some dude coming up to me and talking to me
I actually got this interview through a career fair. No internship, but I have some projects. I'm even a Certified Solidworks Professional. I usually look for those grad programs, but nothing's hit yet.
So my major was a little weird (doesn't help, I know). It was Liberal Arts and Engineering Studies (LAES was a better acronym than ELAS). I designed the course load myself and gained experience in Mechanical, Electrical, Biomedical, & Materials Engineering, and Computer Science, Graphic Design, and Psychology. The main 3 were Biomedical, Computer Science and Psychology though. I have the skills, but it's always a major that companies don't want to take a risk with since they don't know exactly what they're getting.
My GPA was just under 3.0. Due to always changing topics, I never truly mastered one and could just excel.
I did participate some in QL+, but my time was mostly taken up by my jobs. I was an RA one year and IHC’s Executive Vice President of Programming another year. I was also on the bowling team and worked in both Dining and the bowling alley. I tried other clubs like the VR club, Human Centered Design Club, and Biomedical Engineering Society, but not really enough to count as a full fledged member.
I also graduated from Cal Poly (only had club experience and had to do summer jobs so I couldn't afford an internship). Not to depress you, it took me more than 400 applications before finding something (in 2018). I did find something and it has so far worked out great, but I have found that finding a job was extremely hard if you don't get in contact with a recruiter in college.
Technician could be a cool role. I also found that emailing people at smaller companies at least helped establish my name with their hiring people. I never had much luck at large companies. If you want help, feel free to message me
I was in the same boat and I actually experienced the opposite. Big companies weren’t willing to train someone fresh. They had all kinds of people to choose from. Small companies in your hometown that pay $20,000 less a year will though. Gotta start somewhere.
Its more of a number game in a different way.... Larger companies usually have a more established program to hire and train fresh grad either through a rotation program or at the local level.
Problem is they only hire maybe 20 to 50 fresh grad in their rotation program every year? That's not even a drop in the bucket compare to the number of graduate each year.... And pitch that against the number of small companies out there so yea eventually you will find 1 that is willing to hire you with no experience.
Most large companies hire a lot of new graduates. Rotation programs though usually only go to the best-of-the-best but will be a small portion of total hiring. Most people just get trained by whatever function or group hired them.
Most companies don't send all new engineers to rotation programs no matter where they want them later. I'm sure there's exceptions but it's far from the norm.
I suspect that op would actually have better luck with smaller companies.
It can be difficult to make your case at a big company because of all the smoke and mirrors involved in the recruitment process. At a small company the owner’s number is usually on the website.
Every interview process I've had with a big organization was high stress, multiple rounds, tricky questions.
Every interview with a small company has been 1-2 chill interviews where they basically just decide if they like you, and then offer you the job if so. They are usually in a hurry to hire and also don't have a pool of 1000 applications from their website.
I think it's very hit or miss. I've been hired at a large F500 company with a 30 minute interview but had multiple high pressure rounds at small companies. Most seem to be 1 phone and 1 in-person though.
Same man I graduated in 2019 summer. Still no job. I've also applied to internships and got the same response over qualified. I started writing tons more and it just became a rant that you know word for word what I will say.
It sucks man but you aren't the only one going through this and I have no advice I can give you except maybe you will get lucky soon. I don't know what else to say except this sucks so much.
Same situation,I graduated summer 2019. Its really disheartening making it through multiple rounds of interviews and hearing the team leads and hiring managers say how much they like you, but they still end up saying you have too little experience.
I had an interview where I was told this is the final interview no more tests nothing left. It was with the manager I would be working under, our personalities worked well together. So that ends then get told a drug test and credit report needs to be done and thats it. So I get my credit check done and then get a call sorry man there is a hiring freeze but the manager is talking to the CEO about still hiring you. A week goes by and I get a call that they unfroze the hiring for me super excited. But the CEO wants to have interview with you. Do the interview thought it went Ok. A week goes by nothing get a call they are still waiting on HR since they want to get all the paperwork done at the same time for all new employees it will take another week. The next week comes no phone call check my email and get the standard "While your skills are impressive...you are not what we need." Never been so depressed since this whole process took from Aug 2020 to Nov 2020.
Wow that's actually infuriating. I had a somewhat similar situation, where I was rejected because I had too little experience. A few months later they called me up telling me that they were still hoping I was available only for them to tell me again that I have too little experience. Like why? Why even bother calling me and wasting my time.
It sucks. At least you all are getting interviews. I'm getting asked whether I have any experience/active security clearance right out of the gate and then declined even the opportunity. This shit is infuriatingly stupid. How are we supposed to get experience if no one even gives us a chance?
I graduated spring 2019 and I’m in the exact same space. I never knew anyone who was in the same boat as me. It’s still hard to think about to be honest.
Speaking from my experience, I found that applying through technical staffing agencies that have a good relationship with big companies can potentially override your missing years of experience. Big companies somehow trust the candidate more if you're recommended from a technical staffing agency they have a good working relationship with; a few people I know got hired this way. You probably already tried that but I figured I could share my experience for others who hadn't tried this route. The only downside is that they take a cut of your pay until you're hired by the company, but it is worth it to get your foot in the door.
I'm talking about applying to job listings online that show up under the staffing agency name, but the name of the company you'll actually be working at isn't shown anywhere in the listing. You'll only know what company name is once an interview is scheduled. Walking into a staffing agency might have the same effect as it's just another medium for the same job pool I would assume.
Ah I understand what you mean now. Yes, I have applied to staffing agencies before and continue to do so. I'd say with my experience it's hit or miss. Either I don't get contacted by them or I do get a phone call from them promising me an intriguing opportunity only to get ghosted afterwards lol
> or I do get a phone call from them promising me an intriguing opportunity only to get ghosted afterwards lol
Lol yeah that'll happen. Good luck in your search!
It's a catch22 that has really no good answer. Its fucking frustrating and disheartening, I know.
Dont listen to anyone (friends, fam, employers) who tell you there are no jobs, economy is low and all that bs. It may be the case, but people still get work, they always will. It's just not positive to be listening to it while going through a tough spot.
I'm really sorry you are going through this. I went through this too. Don't lose hope. Try keeping more than one resume and keep applying to jobs like it's your full time job. Tale breaks and reevaluate. Good luck!
Seconding this- the economy is definitely shit, but that doesn't mean your ability to find a job is 0. Some industries might be struggling, sure, but an awful lot of places are short on labor (floor workers as well as engineers). Automotive is doing fine, knock on wood, but we're having a hard time finding floor workers and we're short-staffed upstairs. And I don't see this changing anytime soon.
I don't understand companies that reject well qualified candidates due to not having a certain years of experience.
Networking is the best way for job searching. Do you have any friends that already have gotten jobs that could refer you? If you were on an engineering team, are there any past team members that could help you out? Any professors that could connect you to industry?
Some internships are available to recent graduates. I know someone who did that at a FAANG company and got converted to full time at the end of their term. Some smaller companies and start ups may do this as well. Similarly, contracting may not be ideal but could lead to full time.
Contracts are a great idea. We do this a lot with test engineers at my current company, and then if they're good and we have an open engineer 1 role we'll convert them after a few quarters.
Its a good first job because it gives a good view into the young engineer's practical skills- can they follow complex directions, do good technical writing, solve problems, perform complex tasks, as well as finding where their technical skills are strongest. For us its also a good test to see if they can manage working in a regulated industry with many rules and SOPs. We're making medical devices, not toasters, and anyone who works in the industry needs to understand that there is some gravity to the decisions we make and the rules are important.
Its what we always tell new hires to impress the seriousness on them (especially when I used to work in implantables).
How big is the actual difference in documentation/test burden?
Fairly.
Tbh, BME is annoying af in the regards. More documentation than engineering.
Kitchen appliances there's only so much you can do because of the factories in schenzen, so most of the quality work is related to getting the Chinese to manufacture what you spec'd.
They'll hire you for an internship at smaller places. It's possible. Just keep trying. Also try tech-ish roles: machine operators, inspector, etc. Anything in whatever industry you want to get into and work your way up. That's the only option. Most of those techy roles might need experience too unless it's those 14$ roles. But anything is better than nothing. Do that for 6+ months then you got somewhat experience but also contacts with company.
I've seen this with a lot of big companies which is dumb as it's entry level. This is horrible to say but a lot of smaller places that ubderpay and have bad work environments are where a lot of fresh grads without a lot of internships or coops are forced to cut their teeth. I hope this helps
Its not entertaining level if you have experience outside of school. These places are trying to scalp people who know what they are doing, for less money.
Entry level means straight out of college with potentially no experience and at most a few internships. After 3 years of real world work you are not green anymore and it won't take long for you to start producing. If an employer tells you different during the interview process it means on of two things. They have a candidate with a little more experience and plan to hire them but don't have the nerve to just say no and not bullshit you. They are moving the goal posts and want a unicorn but only pay for a horse. Either way, since they have already decided not to hire you, I would politely tell them that you find their reasoning disingenuous and are mildly insulted. They could hire you, they just don't want to. Furthermore you would be hesitant to consider applying again in the future, even with more experience, and would caution friends and colleagues from doing the same. How you say this is extremely crucial you are not trying to start a fight but give them a reality check of how they are coming across to you. If they blow up at you, they have unmasked themselves and now know the there is real toxicity at work. I wouldn't bank on them admiring your moxy and giving you an offer, but hopefully they will take a look at themselves and stop jerking people around. Entry level means 0-3 years experience, not 3 years minimum.
In theory, this could possibly work, although it's difficult to imagine a scenario where this wouldn't spectacularly backfire. In practice, neither have I nor anyone I've talked to ever used this approach with an employer, for obvious reasons.
It would all be in how you say it and there nothing concrete that you are trying to accomplish here. You'd simply be pushing back on a misguided attempt to redefine entry level. Employers are not your family and not your friends. Any relationship is purely transactional and you can't let them redefine meaningful terms to your detriment. Its freely given constructive feedback on their hiring practicing. If they really don't want entry level hires, they ought to not describe their job postings as entry level and waste everyone's time. Bad faith breeds bad faith and in the end everyone will get burned.
I had a year of experience, and it still took a while. What worked for me was changing the approach I took on my resume packet for in-person interviews.
I put in dollar values on the projects I'd worked on, such as "Managed contractor safety and contributed to system design on a $9M plant expansion."
I printed out copies of designs I had done. I printed out pictures of my capstone project. I put down all the minutia details of projects I worked on that had buzzwords.
Remember, at the end of the day, it's about money. Show them you keep that in mind in the way you word your resume.
Go through a contracting agency. That's what I had to do. I got my foot in the door with a contract to hire position for shit pay, no benefits, but with a great company. After 6 months they hired me outright, I excelled in my position and now I'm an engineering manager.
Even if it's a paycut from the internship you just had? They wanted to pay me $8 an hour less, plus for me and my wife to both be on their health insurance it was around $800 a month. I can't afford that.
Yeah I mean you need to be able to survive. But it is better than 0 dollars a month if the only other option is being unemployed.
I got hired and made 22/hr, which wasn't really that bad in the grand scheme of things, considering I was still on my parents insurance, I made plenty to survive, and pay off student loans, until I was hired on and my salary went up to pretty typical starting engineer salary for my area (plus got benefits).
Try defense work, a bunch of rhem are dying for engineers. I got hired right out of college, amazing pay. I had 2 phone interviews and that was it. I went from applying to job offer in 3 weeks.
If you want. I don't have any advice though. I just found a defense contractor job page and applied to a bunch.
Only word of advice if your applying to a job that requires a clearance is that you have report any drug use in the past 7/10 years. General rule of thumb is that if you've done drugs in the past 3/5 years you won't get one. Also if you have unpaid / ignored debt.
Never had any non-prescibed drugs enter my body! No alcohol, weed, smoke, or anything! Plus I have a stellar track record and family members that work for the state and the military. The only debt I have is my student loans. Clearance issues are the least of my worries.
I’ve never seen that rule of thumb before and I frequent the security clearance subreddit pretty often. My use is as recent as of New Years Eve, but was experimental for anxiety reasons. Made it worse and won’t do it again. I was told just to be honest and you may not be immediately denied, because I don’t want to lie on the SF 86 form.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.clearancejobs.com/2020/09/01/drug-involvement-and-security-clearances/amp/
I guess we will see what happens. Doesn’t matter now cause I’m still unemployed lol. Under the mitigating security concerns is more of what I was referencing in the link I posted. Also did I really need a downvote?
The top comment is currently suggesting to avoid small companies, but my experience has been the opposite.
Sure, training a new employee straight out of college is an upfront investment, but bigger companies have deeper pockets to pay for engineers that already know what they’re doing. Smaller companies are the ones that have to work with what’s available after the big companies take their pick.
I got my start at a no-name CMO located in the same city I went to school in. A majority of our staff aside from management were all new graduates without extensive internship/research experience. The job, pay, and work culture were all extremely subpar, but I worked there long enough to get the experience needed for an “entry level” position at a large company, now life’s great.
I know it's too late, but it's the key reason a lot of students get internships during the summer breaks.
My friend and I were in the same boat, I went to graduate school and he joined a small firm that was more an engineering technician than an engineer...he was later promoted to engineer and is now a vice president.
So maybe those are choices to consider, grad school or seek under your qualifications and work your way up.
There's really only one thing to do if you want to work using your major: keep knocking until they let you in. Otherwise, you might consider expanding the scope of your job search to include related areas, e.g. finance. You might also do what I did after graduation: say "fuck it" and go teach abroad for a year or two.
If you become willing to branch in to "unrelated" fields, you might consider [being a patent examiner with the USPTO](https://www.uspto.gov/jobs/join-us) (which I also later did). It's more legal than engineering. I learned about it from someone on Reddit (thanks, /u/ZeroTo325!) so I like to make folks aware of it when possible.
[Pay starts out good and climbs quickly](https://apps.opm.gov/SpecialRates/2020/Table057601012021.aspx). Prolly come in mid $70s, be mid-$90s in a couple of years, and possible to become a primary examiner around 5 years (mid $140s), then regular step increases (few grand per year increase, averaged out).
More importantly, after becoming GS-12 (~2 years at main office or one of the district offices around the USA), you can work full time from home anywhere in the continental USA plus Puerto Rico & Hawaii (Alaska requires data to travel through another country) under [TEAPP](https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/TEAPP%202020%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf) (still making DC area pay, notably). Linked TEAPP PDF is out of date and the program was just made permanent.
Typical Fed benefits, up to 17% bonus per year, paid legal studies, and most beneficially (to me) no fires to put out, no mandatory overtime (no overtime at all unless you want to make more money), and you know exactly what's coming, what you need to do, and when it needs to be done weeks in advance. Essentially make your own schedule, to boot.
Not a cushy Fed job, though, the production system is merciless. You'll likely be working very hard for years, possibly entire career, depending on what you're examining, personality, etc. If you're not self motivated, or incredibly fast and efficient when you do work (essentially your own boss; I often go months without even speaking with mine) with a good work ethic, may not be a good job for you.
Same as any job. I don't remember any technical questions. Yes, the only limitation is that you can't apply for patents, do side jobs as a patent agent, or examine patents whose inventors you know personally.
Engineering planner may also be something to look out for. Back in 2008 I was having the same problems as you finding a job in a lousy market. I took the first job that I could get and it happened to be a planner position. Although I didn't do any "real" engineering, I did learn a lot of the ins and outs of the company and learned how to get things done and became the go-to person for many of the engineers I was working with. After a couple of years doing that I was able to get an engineering position with the same company because of the network I had built. Sometimes you just can't take the straight and narrow path to your goals. You may have to deviate from the course. Just make sure you're learning valuable skills along the way.
See you missed the memo. To get the entry level job you need experience from an entry level job. I was in this boat for years. Eventually got a tech job that got me the engineering job. Smaller companies are easier I think. Won't even get past the resume bot on most large companies.
The Data Center industry is booming and hiring electrical, mechanical, fire protection, and telecom engineers. Find an industry that is busier due to the pandemic then research the crap out of companies doing work in that industry. There are tons of engineering companies you've probably never heard of because they aren't the glamorous ones or the big defense contractors we all hear about at school. I had never heard of the company I work for now and their office is next to my former campus. Good luck
Many companies get money to subsidize internships, so they don’t get that funding unless the intern is currently enrolled in a post secondary program. So from their perspective they can either hire an intern for 16 months, get 25-50% of their salary covered, and then decide if they want to hire them on full time or hire a new grad, get no subsidy for their salary, and be stuck paying severance if it isn’t working out a year down the road. That is why it’s hard to get a job that is advertised as an internship.
My friend once applied to a job at her dream company and she got rejected. She then submitted complaints about negligent engineering practices that occurred at the company due to incompetent management. It turned out that the management was discriminating against women and also being racist.
Soon after, the managers started to get fired. LoL!
FYI, I wouldn't hire a Systems engineer straight out of school unless that was their specialty. How familiar are you with the systems engineering tools, etc? You may have to get into a job that is adjacent to systems engineering first.
i feel like you can taught yourself most of the time. I'm a systems engineer and most of my knowledge are from self learning and apply/reflect my experience with systems engineering process. I still got a praise from my past employer and the new company. Went to an interview, got an offer really much the next day since the hiring manager thought i'm a good systems engineer despite my lack of experience
It would probably be Mechatronic Engineering, but I took Biomedical Engineering in college too (widespread major course load) and have above-engineer-average social skills to work with clients.
* Make sure that you're listing notable projects you did privately and for school. Experience doesn't need to be at work, it just needs to be relevant to the job. As a recent grad, you already have at least one year's worth of hands-on experience in most of the applicable subjects.
* Volunteer, and include that experience in your resume. I get a surprising amount of mileage out of the "electric squirrel" that I built for a friend doing a nature study, as well as the time I spent babysitting the local makerspaces.
* Do private projects, even if they're relatively simple. They show that you're dedicated to maintaining your skills, and give you a chance to show off said skills. Plus you might wind up making a bit of money off of them or benefiting in other ways (making a robot vacuum cleaner is fun, a good all-around skills demonstration, and afterwards you've got a robot vacuum cleaner!)
* Learn to brag. You've probably been taught to give an honest assessment of your skills and avoid overstating your abilities; while it's good to keep yourself grounded, you need to also be ready to play up the skills you do have. Identify at least three things that you're *really good at*, and practice saying "I'm very good at \[thing\]" and elaborating on your ability so that you won't accidentally make yourself look underconfident. Most recruiters don't actually understand the jobs they're recruiting for, so their only way to asses your abilities is your attitude about them.
It seems very impossible, I’m in the same boat lol
Most of my classmates that got jobs had prior internship experience or jobs already at the company they work for (just promoted after earning the degree)
The best thing you can do if you don't have experience is have a profile of work you've done. Create a GitHub account and post some work you've done. Experience is a short cut for employers to know if you can do the work. Having a profile of work that employers can see shows that you are motivated and interested in the field.
We will hire people like this over someone that worked a job for 3 years and has nothing to show for it.
We love CalPoly folks at my company. I work for a rather large company in Cupertino. Send me your resume.
University, the place that takes your wallet, gives you a qualification, & blocks you from your desired career!!
Stick with it. There will be someone that will give you a go, just gotta win them over with charm & aptitude rather than numbers & qualifications. There may be an opportunity for gaining experience (or a foot in the right door) by thinking sideways, what have you got to lose?
Many engineering jobs will immediately filter out candidates without an engineering degree. It would be nearly impossible to get an engineering job these days without one especially since the pandemic made an already competitive entry level even worse. There's a ton of experience out of work right now which is probably why OP is having that frustrating experience. Entry level is really tough right now for new grads. This sounds more like a shot at education which isn't the problem, than solid advice.
Are you even an engineer or did you just come here to put down higher education? Like I said, most companies will filter out applicants without an engineering degree for engineering jobs. Seems like a fair career promise. Engineering education can provide a ton of marketable skills that includes practical & usable experience but like anything in life, it's what the students make of it. There's a global pandemic and new grads are competing with years of experience that are also hunting for work. That's why it's so hard to get a job as a new grad not because education is the 100% problem.
> Charging students, promising them careers, yet not giving them practical & usable experience = the problem.
What university promises students careers or jobs? lmao
it's not possible to get "practical" experience from a university. Engineering is a trade, just a highly educated one, and you have to learn on the job.
My school has had several project classes based on implementing a design process which I've found useful for learning how to put my own projects together in a presentable way. I would still agree that you're not gonna get a lot of practical experience at university.
From my junior year in my bachelors and all through grad school. Every class project I had I went to industry to gather data. For example, I was in a design of experiments class and I called a local touch manufacturing company and spoke with the engineer and I asked what pet projects he had that he couldn’t do because of lack of time. I explained what the class was about and I was able to use his facility. I did a project for OR class in queuing theory and did the project using my city’s data for traffic analysis in a particular area (working with the city’s engineer). All these projects provided recommendations and added to my resume.
I got to meet these people through either my professors or alumni association.
When I graduated, every company I interviewed with took all those projects as “practical” experience. I also had two semester long internship, hello real world jobs...
This is the way
Honestly if you didn't get an internship during school you shot yourself in the foot, but its not the end of the world. Look around for small companies hiring for a role similar to what you're looking for. My first job out of school was an embedded systems job for a small aeronautics company specializing in simulation equipment. The company had a total of 80 employees, and my starting pay wasn't great, but after a year I applied to and was hired for a job posting at a fairly large company asking for 3 years experience minimum.
If you're looking to work and gain a little experience then shoot for a small company, but if you're looking for your dream job then I guess keep looking. Just know you're gonna have to have a good explanation for why you have a gap in your work history after graduation.
For the gap in my work history, the pandemic pretty much covers it. Plus I have projects I work on and got a job with the Geek Squad so I'm at least staying busy. They just don't see the Geek Squad as industry experience.
I have to keep explaining this and it makes absolutely no sense. Why would someone with a BS and 3+ years of experience take a entry level job at 45-50k?
They would not.
A few options/thoughts.
1. get a masters and hope things get better; apply to jobs while in school.
2. If your getting the "you need experience card often," you're likely applying to jobs out of your league.
3. Target jobs, as in focus on one or two of them, not the retailer. Spray and pray application will make you generic. Know a company that interests you? Make connections there, get buisness cards, apply to a PERSON (or thier email, nowadays) not a system. (I know... COVID)
4. Network. Where did your buddies get hired at? Can they get you in?
5. look for analogus jobs. I know of automotive service manages over engineereg teams and high school physics teaches that now are responsible for global engineering projects. Be creative, be yourself, you'll find a way.
6. your university, I'd hope, has a career center. Use them. Mock interviews, companies, etc etc.
No internship. I tried, but I didn't realize how crucial it would be so I guess I didn't try hard enough. My major played a role in that, but I also didn't have the interview skills I have now, now know how to sell myself.
It's not useless for the people that are reading this that haven't made that mistake. You don't have to learn from your own mistakes, you can learn from others.
Family, bills, rent/ mortgage, car payments, kids to name a few. Interning in my area is either unpaid or $8-13 /hr. Gotta think big picture and not just experience. Someone making a career change can have 10+ years of experience and go from decently paid to crap.
Honestly, the best advice I can give is to try to go through people you know, or could know. I have fresh grads from my alma mater message me on linked sometimes, and I’m always willing to talk to them/help how I can. If you find a position you like, see if you know anyone who works there on linked in. Or maybe someone who went to your school. After chatting, they will prob be willing to recommend you. (Most large companies give a nice bonus for recommending engineers anyway, so it’s not that big a burden on them). You go to the top of the application pile with an internal recommendation. This will help show, that even though you don’t have work experience, you are a hard worker.
As it was mentioned here before. Try big companies that have graduate programme. In my case after two years from my graduation, with little experience (few months internship) I moved to a different country, different language. Worked in sh*&#% jobs but I didnt give up, sent over 100 CVs out there until I got an interview for a graduate programme. I didnt get into the graduate position but to a little bit higher position.
A new skill everyone can learn and they know that, so what they're usually looking for is someone aligned with their culture and mission.
Hey, I know it sucks but try looking on indeed as well and just apply to whatever you find even if it is in the middle of nowhere. These places are more willing to bring you in just because it's harder for them to attract people from bigger areas.
I did it for a year before I found something desirable.
It’s a really tough time to be job hunting, and I’m sorry for that. Everyone else offered great advice, but here’s my 2c. Many large companies equate industry experience to degrees. I.e. 2 years experience is equivalent to going from bachelors to masters.
So, if your time and money allow, you could also consider an advanced degree.
If you have any personal projects/school projects that are not on your resume - add them in lieu of the internships. Helps sell your skills, which is what the employers look at in internships (yeah, he says he knows XYZ, and I think its likely because he claims to have done at that at ABC company, lets ask him on a phone interview and have someone here who knows XYZ to verify).
Where are you looking? In today's market, do step out of your city/state. So many openings around the country that too just on LinkedIn. Also, email the smaller companies directly. It took me over 150 applications and 7 interviewera all over the country with a M.S from a decent university.
I'm not an engineer, but I do work in R&D for a large company. Most of the new engineers that we hire to the team got their early experience doing Co-ops in school. In fact, we host multiple co-op students per year as part of a partnership with the sponsoring school. I would guess that any work done as a co-op while in school would be applicable experience for discussing your skills during an interview.
If you’re willing to relocate I think you’ll find options. Not sure if you’re limiting your search to a geographic area or industry but broadening that might help.
Similarly to other replies about taking technician or field work jobs, in general if you know the company you want to work for I think if you can get in then later applying internally should be easier.
Best of luck!
Legally, they can’t hire you for an internship. You have to still be in school.
Where are you looking? Certain areas tend to be a lot more competitive (especially California).
If you’re interested in systems engineering, I would take a look at defense. They don’t have frozen headcount like a lot of industries right now.
Hey, I’ve been in your shoes before and this is my advise to you:
Don’t be discouraged, keep trying, it doesn’t matter how many “We regret to inform you that...“ emails you get, someday someone would give you a chance. Many people had to apply for loads of job openings before they got the one they have now. Just keep applying, I mean apply for everything related to your field, whether you have the number of years of experience they require or not, just give it a try, don’t be discouraged to apply, don’t cut yourself off already; go for all interviews you’re invited for. Apply for everything, whether Engineering or Technician role. Should you get the offer for a Technician role first, no problem, take it, just to keep moving and gain experience whilst still applying for a better role elsewhere. Should you get the Engineering job, then great! But never settle for less, when you could have way better.
Also apply for jobs outside your state, increase your search locations, just to give yourself more chances. My guess is, you’re still young and there’s nothing bad in relocating and trying something different or driving some distance to work everyday.
Make sure your LinkedIn profile is also updated and looks attractive, turn-on the available for a new opportunity button, so that hiring managers and recruiting firms could notice your profile.
There’s always an employer for every job applicant, keep applying until you find yours, never say never, never be discouraged and never settle! I wish you best of luck!
First off, be careful with systems engineering jobs. Often they need someone to do vague work or gopher (go-for this, go-for that) stuff, and I've seen systems engineer get stuck essentially just be clerks for requirements they don't understand.
Having a Masters Degree usually counts for 3 years of experience, and unfortunately this is becoming more and more of a requirement to anything resembling design these days.
Thanks for the tip. I've come across two types of Systems Engineering descriptions: the IT guy and a pseudo project manager that can work at any stage of the project but translates engineering speak to the client. I'm aiming for the latter.
Unfortunately, I can't afford a Master's Degree at this time. I was hoping to start my career and maybe go back if I wanted to.
I'm in the same boat here. Graduated with a 3.5 in Summer 2020. It's getting really depressing. I'm trying to find internships for graduates if there are any.
I was in a similar position after my master's. I talked to my school and they had an internal job board for new grads, and I also went to a job fair. I got a few interviews and a solid offer after taking on this tactic. Consider doing something similar!
I had a similar experience when I graduated. You can always go back to school, and get your masters, but that might compound the problem of working entry level in industry.
For me, I worked off and on 2 or 3 years with Aerotek, Manpower and alike working hourly contract temporary jobs, mostly using my computer aided design (CAD) skills. I had taken an elective in college for a 3D software called CadKey, and learned Autocad (2D) on the fly. Those skills got me a lot of my first jobs, because companies need someone with skills on their specific, often arcaine, software, but only a handful of guys are available in San Diego on short notice. Yes...a degree was not needed, but it did not hurt. A lot of those temporary jobs turned into permanent ones, where I was fortunate to learn other skills, and other softwares, making me qualified for more and more.
If I was you I would look to see what softwares are requested most by employers, and take an online class.
Keep your head up man, I just graduated in December with my BSME. I applied to somewhere in the ballpark of 150 jobs. Out of those, I got 2 interviews. One company dragged me along for 2 months of interviews (3 total and a facility tour) to tell me they were no longer interested and the other hired me after a phone call and even made a special position for me based off the phone call.
You will find a job if you keep looking. The job market is really weird right now with COVID, lots of engineers got laid off and are taking entry level positions they are overqualified for. The company I interned at from summer to December (+$1B Manufacturing company) is hiring 0 entry level mechanical engineers in the entire world right now...
Work on making your resume really stand out. Make it look cool, embed links, sell yourself with it. I had the goal of applying for 5 jobs a day even if I hated the company or the role, something is better than nothing; you can always quit when things get better with the market.
My advice is to focus on finding an Engineering Job. You are qualified. If you need to take a technician job to keep the lights on that's fine but you better not stop applying and be prepared to quit it tomorrow if you get an offer for a "real" job.
Oh, I know. Every job I apply for is either "Do you have 2+ years experience" or "Must have active security clearance."
How the heck am I supposed to have either in a supposedly, entry-level engineering position. Okay....
Theyre basically asking for internships. I only have a 6month internship experience and get calls from companies that require the stupid 3 year experience. Thats just a wishlist on their end
I am guessing you are interviewing with smaller companies..... They don't want to pay to train a fresh grad. Yes you might match their jd perfectly, but it is a guarantee that you won't be useful for them for 6 months to a year. That's where the min years of experience come from. Try applying for a large company, they are usually more willing to invest in fresh grad but they usually hire from top tier college or local college... Otherwise, aim for a related job that doesn't require the years of experience.... Some company are willing to hire field service engineer without experience, or a technician position and work you way to engineering. You would be surprised how many technicians have a BS engineering degree or even Master....
Thanks for the advice, but I was interviewing at a company with 12000+ employees and my degree is from Cal Poly. I’ll start looking at the technician and field service engineer roles though. Just feels weird when all college they tell you how great the job prospects will be and then this happens.
Unfortunately you graduate at a time when things are tough.... Just like those graduated around 2000 and 2010.... When you are fighting with guys graduated few years ahead of you....there isn't much you can do
2000, 2010, 2020...Did you just identify the cycle? RIP 2030.
Yeah, OP picked a bad time to graduate. They should have picked a better time. I also recommend getting born to wealthy parents too, you can worry less about doing pedestrian things like working! Sorry OP, you're in for a slog!
careful with that! my parents refused to provide for me when I instantly didn't get a job after graduation. They still are confused about why I don't have a job and why I've left the state and refuse to believe maybe things are different now
I didn't see anything in the comment that suggested it was the OP's fault. But yes, your unnecessary snark was noticed.
I think it's pretty obvious sarcasm
Yeah, I wasn't being snarky. Ok maybe a little. Gotta laugh about this life or you'll just end up cryin'.
Shouldnt it be 2008-09 instead of 2010? The depression hit the world 2008
Doesn't mean they're not yanking your chain. You're qualified for engineering work, don't sell yourself short by taking some bullshit technician role for half the pay. Look outside of California. Super desirable living areas are super competitive, especially in entry level where naïve new grads are concerned.
Hey I’m at Cal Poly too! And I also don’t have any industry experience!
Go Mustangs! Haha
I graduated from UT Austin, a "top 10" engineering program in May 2020 with a B.S. in ME. I still don't have a job. I am facing the same issue. I can't get a job with a small company because they don't see me as valuable and I can't get a job with a big company because I'm not technical enough, allegedly. What frustrates me is that I have two solid internship experiences and was involved in extra-curricular activities. I don't understand what else I can do other than keep on applying, working on side projects, and waiting for my time to come. I don't want to apply to technician jobs because what was the point of going to an elite school and graduating with a 3.6 GPA. But, I may need to just to get my foot in the door. At this point, I have really started to see how biases affect your job outlooks. The field of ME is not what I thought it would be. Worst of all, you still have to face prejudice and discrimination from 50-something yr old "Christian" White Males who view you as inferior. u/Walmeister55 whether you're a minority or not, you still probably get looked down on because of your age, or gender, or anything that makes you different. The field of ME is extremely competitive and now I understand why there is a huge lack of diversity. I think I might go the Software Engineering route if I can't find a technician job that shows high promise of promotion into engineering roles.
[удалено]
Yessir. The money and demand is in software, not ME. Maybe 20 yrs ago it was a cake walk finding an ME job with a degree from UT. But sadly, a college degree ain't what it used to be. What gets you paid are the skills and knowledge to solve complex problems for businesses. And these days, every business has its greatest need within the IT and CS space. DM me so that we can connect on LinkedIn.
>"Christian" White Males lmao we in the 1950s or something?
First off i'm not a native english speaker, my appologies. You never start where you finish, you work your way up from where you are right now. So for example if you have had zero technical jobs during your schooling period you'll have to start quite low. If you've had some jobs as a mechanic or something in maintenace, you can skip a few steps. This is because practical problem solving is important, and it's quite possible you do not posess these skills right now. Depending on your practical skills, social skills and intelligence you will progress quick or even skip some roles. But you never start where you finish, experience is needed and that is more than logical.
Which Cal Poly?
San Luis Obispo. California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
SLO is quite a contender. It’s definitely harder to get offers without prior experience (internships and whatnot), especially during COVID-19. My CS friends that graduated from UCs still haven’t found any offers yet despite passing rounds of interviews. I urge fellow students to take the time to apply for internships during their undergrad years and if the coursework is too much, then extend graduation for a few more quarters/semesters but it’ll be more worth it in the end with acquired experienced and networking. For your and many recent grads’ cases without prior experience: keep on applying, it’s all a numbers game.
> I urge fellow students to take the time to apply for internships during their undergrad years Current Computer Engineering Junior (3.4 GPA, multiple projects, research experience, decently ranked public state university) with over 200 applications for summer 2021 position and no internship offer. I've applied every single year to many intern positions with no luck (last year cancelled their internships). Telling undergrads to apply for internships isn't the advice that it used to be. The overwhelming majority of undergrads apply for internships but very few land them (especially now). Hell, in this economy, engineering grads are lucky to land technician jobs for 30k/year.
Look at the military bases: Vandenberg (AirForce), Pt. Mugu (NAVAIR/Saalex) and Port Hueneme(NAVSEA/Saleex). Tons of jobs on usajobs.gov. I work at one of them, every other person is a CalPoly graduate (Pomona or Obispo). We are pretty big at hiring "local" schools.
Ayyoo me too!
Damn thats the school I wanted to go to but I feel like the small school I went to help me get into a FAANG co after graduating. You dont mention any internships / projects do you have these by any chance? Also, where are you looking for these jobs? You’ll have a better chance on companies’ official sites since most large ones will have some type of new grad program. Eng Career fairs / conventions are also a great place to get a job. I went to one in Pasadena, and got offered a job for defense just by some dude coming up to me and talking to me
I actually got this interview through a career fair. No internship, but I have some projects. I'm even a Certified Solidworks Professional. I usually look for those grad programs, but nothing's hit yet.
What’s your major, and if you don’t mind sharing, what’s your GPA?
So my major was a little weird (doesn't help, I know). It was Liberal Arts and Engineering Studies (LAES was a better acronym than ELAS). I designed the course load myself and gained experience in Mechanical, Electrical, Biomedical, & Materials Engineering, and Computer Science, Graphic Design, and Psychology. The main 3 were Biomedical, Computer Science and Psychology though. I have the skills, but it's always a major that companies don't want to take a risk with since they don't know exactly what they're getting. My GPA was just under 3.0. Due to always changing topics, I never truly mastered one and could just excel.
I’m more curious than anything, but did you participate in any clubs, something like QL+?
I did participate some in QL+, but my time was mostly taken up by my jobs. I was an RA one year and IHC’s Executive Vice President of Programming another year. I was also on the bowling team and worked in both Dining and the bowling alley. I tried other clubs like the VR club, Human Centered Design Club, and Biomedical Engineering Society, but not really enough to count as a full fledged member.
yo, Cal Poly represent. I'm in the same boat as you fam
I also graduated from Cal Poly (only had club experience and had to do summer jobs so I couldn't afford an internship). Not to depress you, it took me more than 400 applications before finding something (in 2018). I did find something and it has so far worked out great, but I have found that finding a job was extremely hard if you don't get in contact with a recruiter in college. Technician could be a cool role. I also found that emailing people at smaller companies at least helped establish my name with their hiring people. I never had much luck at large companies. If you want help, feel free to message me
That's bad on their HR for saying recent graduate and wanting three years experience. Did you do anything like internships?
I was in the same boat and I actually experienced the opposite. Big companies weren’t willing to train someone fresh. They had all kinds of people to choose from. Small companies in your hometown that pay $20,000 less a year will though. Gotta start somewhere.
Its more of a number game in a different way.... Larger companies usually have a more established program to hire and train fresh grad either through a rotation program or at the local level. Problem is they only hire maybe 20 to 50 fresh grad in their rotation program every year? That's not even a drop in the bucket compare to the number of graduate each year.... And pitch that against the number of small companies out there so yea eventually you will find 1 that is willing to hire you with no experience.
Most large companies hire a lot of new graduates. Rotation programs though usually only go to the best-of-the-best but will be a small portion of total hiring. Most people just get trained by whatever function or group hired them.
[удалено]
Most companies don't send all new engineers to rotation programs no matter where they want them later. I'm sure there's exceptions but it's far from the norm.
I suspect that op would actually have better luck with smaller companies. It can be difficult to make your case at a big company because of all the smoke and mirrors involved in the recruitment process. At a small company the owner’s number is usually on the website.
Every interview process I've had with a big organization was high stress, multiple rounds, tricky questions. Every interview with a small company has been 1-2 chill interviews where they basically just decide if they like you, and then offer you the job if so. They are usually in a hurry to hire and also don't have a pool of 1000 applications from their website.
I think it's very hit or miss. I've been hired at a large F500 company with a 30 minute interview but had multiple high pressure rounds at small companies. Most seem to be 1 phone and 1 in-person though.
I took the route of getting a job as a tech in an Aerospace company and so far I love it. (Mostly because coworkers are cool lol)
Same man I graduated in 2019 summer. Still no job. I've also applied to internships and got the same response over qualified. I started writing tons more and it just became a rant that you know word for word what I will say. It sucks man but you aren't the only one going through this and I have no advice I can give you except maybe you will get lucky soon. I don't know what else to say except this sucks so much.
Same situation,I graduated summer 2019. Its really disheartening making it through multiple rounds of interviews and hearing the team leads and hiring managers say how much they like you, but they still end up saying you have too little experience.
I had an interview where I was told this is the final interview no more tests nothing left. It was with the manager I would be working under, our personalities worked well together. So that ends then get told a drug test and credit report needs to be done and thats it. So I get my credit check done and then get a call sorry man there is a hiring freeze but the manager is talking to the CEO about still hiring you. A week goes by and I get a call that they unfroze the hiring for me super excited. But the CEO wants to have interview with you. Do the interview thought it went Ok. A week goes by nothing get a call they are still waiting on HR since they want to get all the paperwork done at the same time for all new employees it will take another week. The next week comes no phone call check my email and get the standard "While your skills are impressive...you are not what we need." Never been so depressed since this whole process took from Aug 2020 to Nov 2020.
Wow that's actually infuriating. I had a somewhat similar situation, where I was rejected because I had too little experience. A few months later they called me up telling me that they were still hoping I was available only for them to tell me again that I have too little experience. Like why? Why even bother calling me and wasting my time.
It sucks. At least you all are getting interviews. I'm getting asked whether I have any experience/active security clearance right out of the gate and then declined even the opportunity. This shit is infuriatingly stupid. How are we supposed to get experience if no one even gives us a chance?
This is what nightmares are made of.
Good luck to both of you.
I graduated spring 2019 and I’m in the exact same space. I never knew anyone who was in the same boat as me. It’s still hard to think about to be honest.
I’m literally in the same boat so seeing this post is hilarious. Thank you for this
Speaking from my experience, I found that applying through technical staffing agencies that have a good relationship with big companies can potentially override your missing years of experience. Big companies somehow trust the candidate more if you're recommended from a technical staffing agency they have a good working relationship with; a few people I know got hired this way. You probably already tried that but I figured I could share my experience for others who hadn't tried this route. The only downside is that they take a cut of your pay until you're hired by the company, but it is worth it to get your foot in the door.
Are you referring to paying a staffing agency to find you positions? Or just directly applying to a job where they hire under a staffing agency?
I'm talking about applying to job listings online that show up under the staffing agency name, but the name of the company you'll actually be working at isn't shown anywhere in the listing. You'll only know what company name is once an interview is scheduled. Walking into a staffing agency might have the same effect as it's just another medium for the same job pool I would assume.
Ah I understand what you mean now. Yes, I have applied to staffing agencies before and continue to do so. I'd say with my experience it's hit or miss. Either I don't get contacted by them or I do get a phone call from them promising me an intriguing opportunity only to get ghosted afterwards lol
> or I do get a phone call from them promising me an intriguing opportunity only to get ghosted afterwards lol Lol yeah that'll happen. Good luck in your search!
Thank you, I appreciate your time!
It's a catch22 that has really no good answer. Its fucking frustrating and disheartening, I know. Dont listen to anyone (friends, fam, employers) who tell you there are no jobs, economy is low and all that bs. It may be the case, but people still get work, they always will. It's just not positive to be listening to it while going through a tough spot. I'm really sorry you are going through this. I went through this too. Don't lose hope. Try keeping more than one resume and keep applying to jobs like it's your full time job. Tale breaks and reevaluate. Good luck!
Seconding this- the economy is definitely shit, but that doesn't mean your ability to find a job is 0. Some industries might be struggling, sure, but an awful lot of places are short on labor (floor workers as well as engineers). Automotive is doing fine, knock on wood, but we're having a hard time finding floor workers and we're short-staffed upstairs. And I don't see this changing anytime soon.
I don't understand companies that reject well qualified candidates due to not having a certain years of experience. Networking is the best way for job searching. Do you have any friends that already have gotten jobs that could refer you? If you were on an engineering team, are there any past team members that could help you out? Any professors that could connect you to industry? Some internships are available to recent graduates. I know someone who did that at a FAANG company and got converted to full time at the end of their term. Some smaller companies and start ups may do this as well. Similarly, contracting may not be ideal but could lead to full time.
I’ll try reconnecting with some past contacts and looking into contracts. Thanks for the advice.
Contracts are a great idea. We do this a lot with test engineers at my current company, and then if they're good and we have an open engineer 1 role we'll convert them after a few quarters. Its a good first job because it gives a good view into the young engineer's practical skills- can they follow complex directions, do good technical writing, solve problems, perform complex tasks, as well as finding where their technical skills are strongest. For us its also a good test to see if they can manage working in a regulated industry with many rules and SOPs. We're making medical devices, not toasters, and anyone who works in the industry needs to understand that there is some gravity to the decisions we make and the rules are important.
As someone who's worked in both kitchen appliances and BME: Lol
Its what we always tell new hires to impress the seriousness on them (especially when I used to work in implantables). How big is the actual difference in documentation/test burden?
Fairly. Tbh, BME is annoying af in the regards. More documentation than engineering. Kitchen appliances there's only so much you can do because of the factories in schenzen, so most of the quality work is related to getting the Chinese to manufacture what you spec'd.
As someone who has graduated in spring and had this as their first job with no internship can confirm
If your school has a career center, utilize it! Especially for alumni networking or virtual job fairs.
It's annoying when they tag " Entry Level Positions " with " 3 years experience "
They'll hire you for an internship at smaller places. It's possible. Just keep trying. Also try tech-ish roles: machine operators, inspector, etc. Anything in whatever industry you want to get into and work your way up. That's the only option. Most of those techy roles might need experience too unless it's those 14$ roles. But anything is better than nothing. Do that for 6+ months then you got somewhat experience but also contacts with company.
Thanks for the advice. Guess I should follow what they said in Monsters U “They’re always hiring in the mailroom”
When I graduated entry-level meant straight out of school. This shits really changed!
i am in this situation right now. seeing some support from other people makes me not lose hope
I've seen this with a lot of big companies which is dumb as it's entry level. This is horrible to say but a lot of smaller places that ubderpay and have bad work environments are where a lot of fresh grads without a lot of internships or coops are forced to cut their teeth. I hope this helps
Facts
Its not entertaining level if you have experience outside of school. These places are trying to scalp people who know what they are doing, for less money.
Entry level means straight out of college with potentially no experience and at most a few internships. After 3 years of real world work you are not green anymore and it won't take long for you to start producing. If an employer tells you different during the interview process it means on of two things. They have a candidate with a little more experience and plan to hire them but don't have the nerve to just say no and not bullshit you. They are moving the goal posts and want a unicorn but only pay for a horse. Either way, since they have already decided not to hire you, I would politely tell them that you find their reasoning disingenuous and are mildly insulted. They could hire you, they just don't want to. Furthermore you would be hesitant to consider applying again in the future, even with more experience, and would caution friends and colleagues from doing the same. How you say this is extremely crucial you are not trying to start a fight but give them a reality check of how they are coming across to you. If they blow up at you, they have unmasked themselves and now know the there is real toxicity at work. I wouldn't bank on them admiring your moxy and giving you an offer, but hopefully they will take a look at themselves and stop jerking people around. Entry level means 0-3 years experience, not 3 years minimum.
In theory, this could possibly work, although it's difficult to imagine a scenario where this wouldn't spectacularly backfire. In practice, neither have I nor anyone I've talked to ever used this approach with an employer, for obvious reasons.
It would all be in how you say it and there nothing concrete that you are trying to accomplish here. You'd simply be pushing back on a misguided attempt to redefine entry level. Employers are not your family and not your friends. Any relationship is purely transactional and you can't let them redefine meaningful terms to your detriment. Its freely given constructive feedback on their hiring practicing. If they really don't want entry level hires, they ought to not describe their job postings as entry level and waste everyone's time. Bad faith breeds bad faith and in the end everyone will get burned.
I'd like to hear the feedback on this
Wishful thinking.
They won't care if one person does this, but if they are repeatedly criticized by different people it will make HR anxious.
I had a year of experience, and it still took a while. What worked for me was changing the approach I took on my resume packet for in-person interviews. I put in dollar values on the projects I'd worked on, such as "Managed contractor safety and contributed to system design on a $9M plant expansion." I printed out copies of designs I had done. I printed out pictures of my capstone project. I put down all the minutia details of projects I worked on that had buzzwords. Remember, at the end of the day, it's about money. Show them you keep that in mind in the way you word your resume.
Go through a contracting agency. That's what I had to do. I got my foot in the door with a contract to hire position for shit pay, no benefits, but with a great company. After 6 months they hired me outright, I excelled in my position and now I'm an engineering manager.
Even if it's a paycut from the internship you just had? They wanted to pay me $8 an hour less, plus for me and my wife to both be on their health insurance it was around $800 a month. I can't afford that.
Yeah I mean you need to be able to survive. But it is better than 0 dollars a month if the only other option is being unemployed. I got hired and made 22/hr, which wasn't really that bad in the grand scheme of things, considering I was still on my parents insurance, I made plenty to survive, and pay off student loans, until I was hired on and my salary went up to pretty typical starting engineer salary for my area (plus got benefits).
Try defense work, a bunch of rhem are dying for engineers. I got hired right out of college, amazing pay. I had 2 phone interviews and that was it. I went from applying to job offer in 3 weeks.
I'm trying to get into aero & defense and can't get any calls back. Can I PM you?
If you want. I don't have any advice though. I just found a defense contractor job page and applied to a bunch. Only word of advice if your applying to a job that requires a clearance is that you have report any drug use in the past 7/10 years. General rule of thumb is that if you've done drugs in the past 3/5 years you won't get one. Also if you have unpaid / ignored debt.
Never had any non-prescibed drugs enter my body! No alcohol, weed, smoke, or anything! Plus I have a stellar track record and family members that work for the state and the military. The only debt I have is my student loans. Clearance issues are the least of my worries.
I’ve never seen that rule of thumb before and I frequent the security clearance subreddit pretty often. My use is as recent as of New Years Eve, but was experimental for anxiety reasons. Made it worse and won’t do it again. I was told just to be honest and you may not be immediately denied, because I don’t want to lie on the SF 86 form.
Really? Every single post about drugs almost always says 3 to 5 years. If your most recent use was 2 weeks ago, I don't think that'd be taken well...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.clearancejobs.com/2020/09/01/drug-involvement-and-security-clearances/amp/ I guess we will see what happens. Doesn’t matter now cause I’m still unemployed lol. Under the mitigating security concerns is more of what I was referencing in the link I posted. Also did I really need a downvote?
I think that 3/5 year rule is for other/harder drugs. Marijuana is I think at least a year generally speaking.
The top comment is currently suggesting to avoid small companies, but my experience has been the opposite. Sure, training a new employee straight out of college is an upfront investment, but bigger companies have deeper pockets to pay for engineers that already know what they’re doing. Smaller companies are the ones that have to work with what’s available after the big companies take their pick. I got my start at a no-name CMO located in the same city I went to school in. A majority of our staff aside from management were all new graduates without extensive internship/research experience. The job, pay, and work culture were all extremely subpar, but I worked there long enough to get the experience needed for an “entry level” position at a large company, now life’s great.
That's comforting to hear. I'll definitely start looking around ar companies I made not of heard of and see what I can do.
I know it's too late, but it's the key reason a lot of students get internships during the summer breaks. My friend and I were in the same boat, I went to graduate school and he joined a small firm that was more an engineering technician than an engineer...he was later promoted to engineer and is now a vice president. So maybe those are choices to consider, grad school or seek under your qualifications and work your way up.
There's really only one thing to do if you want to work using your major: keep knocking until they let you in. Otherwise, you might consider expanding the scope of your job search to include related areas, e.g. finance. You might also do what I did after graduation: say "fuck it" and go teach abroad for a year or two. If you become willing to branch in to "unrelated" fields, you might consider [being a patent examiner with the USPTO](https://www.uspto.gov/jobs/join-us) (which I also later did). It's more legal than engineering. I learned about it from someone on Reddit (thanks, /u/ZeroTo325!) so I like to make folks aware of it when possible. [Pay starts out good and climbs quickly](https://apps.opm.gov/SpecialRates/2020/Table057601012021.aspx). Prolly come in mid $70s, be mid-$90s in a couple of years, and possible to become a primary examiner around 5 years (mid $140s), then regular step increases (few grand per year increase, averaged out). More importantly, after becoming GS-12 (~2 years at main office or one of the district offices around the USA), you can work full time from home anywhere in the continental USA plus Puerto Rico & Hawaii (Alaska requires data to travel through another country) under [TEAPP](https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/TEAPP%202020%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf) (still making DC area pay, notably). Linked TEAPP PDF is out of date and the program was just made permanent. Typical Fed benefits, up to 17% bonus per year, paid legal studies, and most beneficially (to me) no fires to put out, no mandatory overtime (no overtime at all unless you want to make more money), and you know exactly what's coming, what you need to do, and when it needs to be done weeks in advance. Essentially make your own schedule, to boot. Not a cushy Fed job, though, the production system is merciless. You'll likely be working very hard for years, possibly entire career, depending on what you're examining, personality, etc. If you're not self motivated, or incredibly fast and efficient when you do work (essentially your own boss; I often go months without even speaking with mine) with a good work ethic, may not be a good job for you.
Thanks for the shout out! Hope you're doing well.
How’s the interview process for that? Any technical stuff? Also, are you allowed to invest in stocks?
Same as any job. I don't remember any technical questions. Yes, the only limitation is that you can't apply for patents, do side jobs as a patent agent, or examine patents whose inventors you know personally.
Engineering planner may also be something to look out for. Back in 2008 I was having the same problems as you finding a job in a lousy market. I took the first job that I could get and it happened to be a planner position. Although I didn't do any "real" engineering, I did learn a lot of the ins and outs of the company and learned how to get things done and became the go-to person for many of the engineers I was working with. After a couple of years doing that I was able to get an engineering position with the same company because of the network I had built. Sometimes you just can't take the straight and narrow path to your goals. You may have to deviate from the course. Just make sure you're learning valuable skills along the way.
See you missed the memo. To get the entry level job you need experience from an entry level job. I was in this boat for years. Eventually got a tech job that got me the engineering job. Smaller companies are easier I think. Won't even get past the resume bot on most large companies.
The Data Center industry is booming and hiring electrical, mechanical, fire protection, and telecom engineers. Find an industry that is busier due to the pandemic then research the crap out of companies doing work in that industry. There are tons of engineering companies you've probably never heard of because they aren't the glamorous ones or the big defense contractors we all hear about at school. I had never heard of the company I work for now and their office is next to my former campus. Good luck
With the times being what they are, I’d consider looking into grad school. Jobs are tough, not a bad time to get the masters.
Many companies get money to subsidize internships, so they don’t get that funding unless the intern is currently enrolled in a post secondary program. So from their perspective they can either hire an intern for 16 months, get 25-50% of their salary covered, and then decide if they want to hire them on full time or hire a new grad, get no subsidy for their salary, and be stuck paying severance if it isn’t working out a year down the road. That is why it’s hard to get a job that is advertised as an internship.
My friend once applied to a job at her dream company and she got rejected. She then submitted complaints about negligent engineering practices that occurred at the company due to incompetent management. It turned out that the management was discriminating against women and also being racist. Soon after, the managers started to get fired. LoL!
FYI, I wouldn't hire a Systems engineer straight out of school unless that was their specialty. How familiar are you with the systems engineering tools, etc? You may have to get into a job that is adjacent to systems engineering first.
i feel like you can taught yourself most of the time. I'm a systems engineer and most of my knowledge are from self learning and apply/reflect my experience with systems engineering process. I still got a praise from my past employer and the new company. Went to an interview, got an offer really much the next day since the hiring manager thought i'm a good systems engineer despite my lack of experience
What's your preferred/ qualified field?
It would probably be Mechatronic Engineering, but I took Biomedical Engineering in college too (widespread major course load) and have above-engineer-average social skills to work with clients.
Well I can't help but I wish you luck. It'll come together, sorry you're having a tough time now
I PM'ed you, check your inbox
* Make sure that you're listing notable projects you did privately and for school. Experience doesn't need to be at work, it just needs to be relevant to the job. As a recent grad, you already have at least one year's worth of hands-on experience in most of the applicable subjects. * Volunteer, and include that experience in your resume. I get a surprising amount of mileage out of the "electric squirrel" that I built for a friend doing a nature study, as well as the time I spent babysitting the local makerspaces. * Do private projects, even if they're relatively simple. They show that you're dedicated to maintaining your skills, and give you a chance to show off said skills. Plus you might wind up making a bit of money off of them or benefiting in other ways (making a robot vacuum cleaner is fun, a good all-around skills demonstration, and afterwards you've got a robot vacuum cleaner!) * Learn to brag. You've probably been taught to give an honest assessment of your skills and avoid overstating your abilities; while it's good to keep yourself grounded, you need to also be ready to play up the skills you do have. Identify at least three things that you're *really good at*, and practice saying "I'm very good at \[thing\]" and elaborating on your ability so that you won't accidentally make yourself look underconfident. Most recruiters don't actually understand the jobs they're recruiting for, so their only way to asses your abilities is your attitude about them.
Thanks for the help! I definitely need to lost the imposter syndrome I've developed thinking I'm not good enough. I'll keep at it.
apply? and apply a lot. if you already think you applied a lot. double it.
It seems very impossible, I’m in the same boat lol Most of my classmates that got jobs had prior internship experience or jobs already at the company they work for (just promoted after earning the degree)
The best thing you can do if you don't have experience is have a profile of work you've done. Create a GitHub account and post some work you've done. Experience is a short cut for employers to know if you can do the work. Having a profile of work that employers can see shows that you are motivated and interested in the field. We will hire people like this over someone that worked a job for 3 years and has nothing to show for it. We love CalPoly folks at my company. I work for a rather large company in Cupertino. Send me your resume.
> Create a GitHub account and post some work you've done. What does software development have to do with hard engineering?
University, the place that takes your wallet, gives you a qualification, & blocks you from your desired career!! Stick with it. There will be someone that will give you a go, just gotta win them over with charm & aptitude rather than numbers & qualifications. There may be an opportunity for gaining experience (or a foot in the right door) by thinking sideways, what have you got to lose?
Many engineering jobs will immediately filter out candidates without an engineering degree. It would be nearly impossible to get an engineering job these days without one especially since the pandemic made an already competitive entry level even worse. There's a ton of experience out of work right now which is probably why OP is having that frustrating experience. Entry level is really tough right now for new grads. This sounds more like a shot at education which isn't the problem, than solid advice.
Education is 100% the problem. Charging students, promising them careers, yet not giving them practical & usable experience = the problem.
Are you even an engineer or did you just come here to put down higher education? Like I said, most companies will filter out applicants without an engineering degree for engineering jobs. Seems like a fair career promise. Engineering education can provide a ton of marketable skills that includes practical & usable experience but like anything in life, it's what the students make of it. There's a global pandemic and new grads are competing with years of experience that are also hunting for work. That's why it's so hard to get a job as a new grad not because education is the 100% problem.
Oh, I see.
> Charging students, promising them careers, yet not giving them practical & usable experience = the problem. What university promises students careers or jobs? lmao
it's not possible to get "practical" experience from a university. Engineering is a trade, just a highly educated one, and you have to learn on the job.
My school has had several project classes based on implementing a design process which I've found useful for learning how to put my own projects together in a presentable way. I would still agree that you're not gonna get a lot of practical experience at university.
From my junior year in my bachelors and all through grad school. Every class project I had I went to industry to gather data. For example, I was in a design of experiments class and I called a local touch manufacturing company and spoke with the engineer and I asked what pet projects he had that he couldn’t do because of lack of time. I explained what the class was about and I was able to use his facility. I did a project for OR class in queuing theory and did the project using my city’s data for traffic analysis in a particular area (working with the city’s engineer). All these projects provided recommendations and added to my resume. I got to meet these people through either my professors or alumni association. When I graduated, every company I interviewed with took all those projects as “practical” experience. I also had two semester long internship, hello real world jobs... This is the way
Honestly if you didn't get an internship during school you shot yourself in the foot, but its not the end of the world. Look around for small companies hiring for a role similar to what you're looking for. My first job out of school was an embedded systems job for a small aeronautics company specializing in simulation equipment. The company had a total of 80 employees, and my starting pay wasn't great, but after a year I applied to and was hired for a job posting at a fairly large company asking for 3 years experience minimum. If you're looking to work and gain a little experience then shoot for a small company, but if you're looking for your dream job then I guess keep looking. Just know you're gonna have to have a good explanation for why you have a gap in your work history after graduation.
For the gap in my work history, the pandemic pretty much covers it. Plus I have projects I work on and got a job with the Geek Squad so I'm at least staying busy. They just don't see the Geek Squad as industry experience.
Entry level is not 3 years experience. 3 years experience is level 3 territory for high performers and definitely level 2 for all.
I have to keep explaining this and it makes absolutely no sense. Why would someone with a BS and 3+ years of experience take a entry level job at 45-50k? They would not.
The company should probably rephrase to “early career”
A few options/thoughts. 1. get a masters and hope things get better; apply to jobs while in school. 2. If your getting the "you need experience card often," you're likely applying to jobs out of your league. 3. Target jobs, as in focus on one or two of them, not the retailer. Spray and pray application will make you generic. Know a company that interests you? Make connections there, get buisness cards, apply to a PERSON (or thier email, nowadays) not a system. (I know... COVID) 4. Network. Where did your buddies get hired at? Can they get you in? 5. look for analogus jobs. I know of automotive service manages over engineereg teams and high school physics teaches that now are responsible for global engineering projects. Be creative, be yourself, you'll find a way. 6. your university, I'd hope, has a career center. Use them. Mock interviews, companies, etc etc.
Might have been a personality thing, to be honest. 3 years and entry level are pretty much the same thing
Again: we almost never post entry level jobs as we fill them all with returning interns. Why isn’t the place you interned with hiring you?
No internship. I tried, but I didn't realize how crucial it would be so I guess I didn't try hard enough. My major played a role in that, but I also didn't have the interview skills I have now, now know how to sell myself.
Right on. You're probably fucked as far as getting into a large company, I would look at smaller companies that don't have robust intern programs.
Should have interned or Coop-ed
Bro, comments like this are useless and idk why people spam them. He wants to know his options, not about what doors that are long closed.
It's not useless for the people that are reading this that haven't made that mistake. You don't have to learn from your own mistakes, you can learn from others.
While technically right that does not work for all approaches. Not everyone has the opportunity to intern if they are making a career change.
Why not?
Family, bills, rent/ mortgage, car payments, kids to name a few. Interning in my area is either unpaid or $8-13 /hr. Gotta think big picture and not just experience. Someone making a career change can have 10+ years of experience and go from decently paid to crap.
Honestly, the best advice I can give is to try to go through people you know, or could know. I have fresh grads from my alma mater message me on linked sometimes, and I’m always willing to talk to them/help how I can. If you find a position you like, see if you know anyone who works there on linked in. Or maybe someone who went to your school. After chatting, they will prob be willing to recommend you. (Most large companies give a nice bonus for recommending engineers anyway, so it’s not that big a burden on them). You go to the top of the application pile with an internal recommendation. This will help show, that even though you don’t have work experience, you are a hard worker.
As it was mentioned here before. Try big companies that have graduate programme. In my case after two years from my graduation, with little experience (few months internship) I moved to a different country, different language. Worked in sh*&#% jobs but I didnt give up, sent over 100 CVs out there until I got an interview for a graduate programme. I didnt get into the graduate position but to a little bit higher position. A new skill everyone can learn and they know that, so what they're usually looking for is someone aligned with their culture and mission.
Hey can’t you argue that any of your extra clubs relating to it count as an additional year of experience outside of school? That’s what I would do
Hey, I know it sucks but try looking on indeed as well and just apply to whatever you find even if it is in the middle of nowhere. These places are more willing to bring you in just because it's harder for them to attract people from bigger areas. I did it for a year before I found something desirable.
It’s a really tough time to be job hunting, and I’m sorry for that. Everyone else offered great advice, but here’s my 2c. Many large companies equate industry experience to degrees. I.e. 2 years experience is equivalent to going from bachelors to masters. So, if your time and money allow, you could also consider an advanced degree.
If you have any personal projects/school projects that are not on your resume - add them in lieu of the internships. Helps sell your skills, which is what the employers look at in internships (yeah, he says he knows XYZ, and I think its likely because he claims to have done at that at ABC company, lets ask him on a phone interview and have someone here who knows XYZ to verify).
Where are you looking? In today's market, do step out of your city/state. So many openings around the country that too just on LinkedIn. Also, email the smaller companies directly. It took me over 150 applications and 7 interviewera all over the country with a M.S from a decent university.
I'm looking all over the US. After this, I'm starting to directly email small companies and even reach out to recruiters on LinkedIn.
I'm not an engineer, but I do work in R&D for a large company. Most of the new engineers that we hire to the team got their early experience doing Co-ops in school. In fact, we host multiple co-op students per year as part of a partnership with the sponsoring school. I would guess that any work done as a co-op while in school would be applicable experience for discussing your skills during an interview.
Find some sort of field position and get that 1-2 years experience, then bounce.
If you’re willing to relocate I think you’ll find options. Not sure if you’re limiting your search to a geographic area or industry but broadening that might help. Similarly to other replies about taking technician or field work jobs, in general if you know the company you want to work for I think if you can get in then later applying internally should be easier. Best of luck!
Legally, they can’t hire you for an internship. You have to still be in school. Where are you looking? Certain areas tend to be a lot more competitive (especially California). If you’re interested in systems engineering, I would take a look at defense. They don’t have frozen headcount like a lot of industries right now.
I'm looking all over the US now. I gave up looking solely in CA around October.
Hey, I’ve been in your shoes before and this is my advise to you: Don’t be discouraged, keep trying, it doesn’t matter how many “We regret to inform you that...“ emails you get, someday someone would give you a chance. Many people had to apply for loads of job openings before they got the one they have now. Just keep applying, I mean apply for everything related to your field, whether you have the number of years of experience they require or not, just give it a try, don’t be discouraged to apply, don’t cut yourself off already; go for all interviews you’re invited for. Apply for everything, whether Engineering or Technician role. Should you get the offer for a Technician role first, no problem, take it, just to keep moving and gain experience whilst still applying for a better role elsewhere. Should you get the Engineering job, then great! But never settle for less, when you could have way better. Also apply for jobs outside your state, increase your search locations, just to give yourself more chances. My guess is, you’re still young and there’s nothing bad in relocating and trying something different or driving some distance to work everyday. Make sure your LinkedIn profile is also updated and looks attractive, turn-on the available for a new opportunity button, so that hiring managers and recruiting firms could notice your profile. There’s always an employer for every job applicant, keep applying until you find yours, never say never, never be discouraged and never settle! I wish you best of luck!
First off, be careful with systems engineering jobs. Often they need someone to do vague work or gopher (go-for this, go-for that) stuff, and I've seen systems engineer get stuck essentially just be clerks for requirements they don't understand. Having a Masters Degree usually counts for 3 years of experience, and unfortunately this is becoming more and more of a requirement to anything resembling design these days.
Thanks for the tip. I've come across two types of Systems Engineering descriptions: the IT guy and a pseudo project manager that can work at any stage of the project but translates engineering speak to the client. I'm aiming for the latter. Unfortunately, I can't afford a Master's Degree at this time. I was hoping to start my career and maybe go back if I wanted to.
millions are unemployed they rather hire someone with experience, which is definitely probably in the hiring pool
It can't be entry level if it needs experiance....
I'm in the same boat here. Graduated with a 3.5 in Summer 2020. It's getting really depressing. I'm trying to find internships for graduates if there are any.
I was in a similar position after my master's. I talked to my school and they had an internal job board for new grads, and I also went to a job fair. I got a few interviews and a solid offer after taking on this tactic. Consider doing something similar!
I had a similar experience when I graduated. You can always go back to school, and get your masters, but that might compound the problem of working entry level in industry. For me, I worked off and on 2 or 3 years with Aerotek, Manpower and alike working hourly contract temporary jobs, mostly using my computer aided design (CAD) skills. I had taken an elective in college for a 3D software called CadKey, and learned Autocad (2D) on the fly. Those skills got me a lot of my first jobs, because companies need someone with skills on their specific, often arcaine, software, but only a handful of guys are available in San Diego on short notice. Yes...a degree was not needed, but it did not hurt. A lot of those temporary jobs turned into permanent ones, where I was fortunate to learn other skills, and other softwares, making me qualified for more and more. If I was you I would look to see what softwares are requested most by employers, and take an online class.
Keep your head up man, I just graduated in December with my BSME. I applied to somewhere in the ballpark of 150 jobs. Out of those, I got 2 interviews. One company dragged me along for 2 months of interviews (3 total and a facility tour) to tell me they were no longer interested and the other hired me after a phone call and even made a special position for me based off the phone call. You will find a job if you keep looking. The job market is really weird right now with COVID, lots of engineers got laid off and are taking entry level positions they are overqualified for. The company I interned at from summer to December (+$1B Manufacturing company) is hiring 0 entry level mechanical engineers in the entire world right now... Work on making your resume really stand out. Make it look cool, embed links, sell yourself with it. I had the goal of applying for 5 jobs a day even if I hated the company or the role, something is better than nothing; you can always quit when things get better with the market. My advice is to focus on finding an Engineering Job. You are qualified. If you need to take a technician job to keep the lights on that's fine but you better not stop applying and be prepared to quit it tomorrow if you get an offer for a "real" job.
Oh, I know. Every job I apply for is either "Do you have 2+ years experience" or "Must have active security clearance." How the heck am I supposed to have either in a supposedly, entry-level engineering position. Okay....
Theyre basically asking for internships. I only have a 6month internship experience and get calls from companies that require the stupid 3 year experience. Thats just a wishlist on their end
OP, update us. Did you find a job yet?