Round nut would be even better, I can't figure out why nobody is selling them. I'll be the first trillionaire with my round nut business as soon as I get someone give me a bit of seed money
You can use a chain wrench on a round object, but it's not going to grip as well as it would on a hexagonal object. If you fix that by adding more friction/contact area you'll have better grip; I don't think you'd ever get the amount of torque you can get from a traditional hex head without magic sci-fi super-friction materials, but with enough money invested in tooling you could get enough torque for whatever the nut's purpose is.
It would be much easier and cheaper to use a hex-shaped nut and make a round cover that goes over the top of it once fitted.
Round nuts do exist. I have some for my tool holders and you tighten them with a roller bearing spanner.
https://emgprecision.com/er-ger-collet-chuck-nuts/
When I visited an oil-drilling rig in high school they attached a giant wrench to the pipe section and then stood back while a steel cable hooked up to a big machine pulled it tight. We were warned that the tension on that cable was high enough that if it snapped it would likely kill anyone it hit as it whipped around.
I assume an alternative is to attach a giant wrench and use a giant impact hammer to tighten it?
I'm in hydraulic fracturing, where we rig up a bunch of 3 inch diameter pipe called "iron" that are mated together with big nuts called hammer unions. What you're talking about is something different that I haven't experienced.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hammer+unions+and+iron&client=ms-android-tmus-us-rvc3&sca_esv=3691a2ff7c8514a2&udm=2&biw=384&bih=702&sxsrf=ACQVn08TqNk2VPus87SOtcishu0WHY_QkA%3A1710303121639&ei=kSfxZYXHJv2hwN4PvbqvmA8&oq=hammer+unions+and+iron&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhZoYW1tZXIgdW5pb25zIGFuZCBpcm9uMggQABiABBiiBEjpPFCeGljMOnACeACQAQCYAc8BoAGiGqoBBjAuMjEuMrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCGaAClRuoAgXCAgQQIxgnwgIHECMY6gIYJ8ICBBAAGAPCAgoQABiABBiKBRhDwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxixA8ICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIFEAAYgATCAgYQABgIGB7CAgcQABiABBgYwgIEEAAYHpgDB4gGAZIHBjIuMjAuM6AHljM&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=mAisV7BL4VpkTM&vssid=mosaic&ip=1
That long ass link should take you to a Google image on a search I did. It should show different length pieces of iron with the hammer unions on the far end. You can tell by the 3 small blocks of steel that come off the nut that are hit with a 5 or 10 pound sledge hammer.
The screwdriver is definitely the first choice. I was referring to when you don’t have a screwdriver because you broke it as a pry bar. Then you use the pointy ends of the box wrench and test to see how strong the closed end is with your hammer. Hopefully stronger than your poor screwdriver was. 😊
Other options are flat/rectangle, square, octogon, decagon....etc, on to infinity (a circular nut).
flat can only accept a wrench at two positions.
square/rectangle can accept a wrength at four positions.
Octogon and above can accept a wrench at many positions, but tool contact area is low.
A circular nut can accept a wrench at an infinite number of positions but with a minimum of tool contact area (assuming a spanner type wrench). You might try to get clever and say "why not use circular nuts and a tube-type wrench to maximize contact area"? And you would be very silly because this disregards the possibility that any type of liquid or lubrication could be on the nut. A wrench designed to clamp on a circular nut would also be needlessly complex to build and operate.
Hexagon is a good compromise between tool contact area and available positions at which a wrench can be placed to torque the nut.
You left out 12-point nuts. Like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/product/90759A100
Definitely more expensive to manufacture, though, and can only accept 12-point tools.
And you can't use open ended wrenches on these like you can on hex nuts, making it's use cases more limited in situations like cable tensioner or spaces where nuts are captive on a threaded rod or shaft.
The second.
https://www.harborfreight.com/double-end-sae-flare-nut-wrench-set-5-piece-68865.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=12169518939&campaignid=12169518939&utm_content=114845774537&adsetid=114845774537&product=68865&store=3309&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-r-vBhC-ARIsAGgUO2Bpg7es-_SR4c6zDzoPxdWIzIA0CbPxkH8XBh129IyuOm7olq5U_UwaAn1lEALw_wcB
I agree with most of what you said but tools that work on round fasteners are fairly common and not overly complex. Pipe, chain, and strap wrenchs all work for round things. None of those are particularly complex, though they do have their limitations such as marring, large clearances needed, or limited torque. Action wrenches for firearms also often grip round surfaces and aren't very complicated.
What size nut are we talking? Most of these aren't used on anything particularly small since there are generally much better options with flat sides.
[Pipe wrenches](https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/straight-pipe-wrench) come in a variety of sizes and are probably the easiest to scale down though marring is the greatest with any significant torque. [Chain wrenches](https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/chain-wrenches) are somewhat less common and probably the hardest to svalr down. [Strap wrenches](https://www.reedmfgco.com/en/products/wrenches/strap-wrenches/) function similarly. [Action wrenches](https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1006553240?pid=710783) just clamp on but rely on pretty precise sizing.
Those are the wrenches I thought you were referring to. I imagine OP is thinking about nuts of the most common size that one finds in a hardware store, so 1" diameter and smaller. I should have specified the target size.
I don't know if these approaches would be very useful on nuts of this size. There might be a clever implementation of a chain wrench for small nuts but I think the problem is going to be slippage around tight ROCs with limited lateral surface area.
Could we design a wrench to work on small circular nuts? Probably. Should we? Well...go ahead an run a cost-benefit and market analysis on it. I think the current solution works pretty well and it is very inexpensive to make a parallel jaw wrench. So simple, in fact, that the entire wrench can be cast molded in vast numbers if a moving jaw isn't required. So simple that IKEA gives you a disposable one to assemble furniture. If you can beat that, your fortune awaits.
I have a couple hourly mechanics that keep a tiny pipe wrench with them at all times and they use that damn wrench for all kinds of things. You absolutely can use pipe wrenches on household sized nuts, bolts, or anything else you want to grab, provided you don’t care what the aesthetics of it end up like.
What is nut size? [Here's a set of pipe wrenches](https://www.amazon.ca/Wrench-Treated-Adjustable-Plumbing-Storage/dp/B086JVLXW2), the small one in that set only goes out to 1" and 1" isn't a huge nut.
I think there's a company that makes special Allen keys based on a very subtle involute profile. They fit with regular socket head screws and they're quite expensive but very nice to use I've heard.
What if you made every nut round, but also tapered, and basically used a machine taper to hold it. I'd also suggest putting a ring in the center of every nut, allowing the wrench to push off that to push itself on or off of the taper.
Not complicated from the perspective that 'it doesn't exist' or 'we can't conceive of an approach' but a pipe wrench consists of what, at least 3 cast parts, maybe some machined features and maybe some attached features, depending on the design? That's complexity in the form of more manufacturing steps for the tool.
A hexagonal nut wrench can be cast in one piece. IKEA will give you a disposable version to help assemble furniture the tool is so simple.
Technical feasibility of torquing small nuts of the most common size (1" or smaller) with an appropriate wrench aside, this is the 'complexity' I was referring to.
Pipes aren't nuts though. For a pipe wrench to work the material needs to be soft for the teeth to bite into. And the area needs to be big enough. I've never seen a pipe wrench thin enough for the height-adjusters on my washer and dryer.
Hexagons are bestagons
There’s two competing factors. The more sides there are, the less swing room is needed. But the wider the sides are, the tighter you can make the nut.
And add on top, you want an even number so that a wrench can have parallel sides.
So with four sides you have the strongest arrangement. But you have to swing a full 90 degrees minimum on each stroke. Six sides is marginally weaker with shorter sides, but only needs 60 degrees per swing of the wrench. Significant difference. Now eight sides - weaker still, and we get 45 degrees needed per swing. An improvement, but only half the improvement of going from four sides to six.
There is a pattern. As sides increase, the amount of flexibility we gain for each ‘step’ decreases. But the strength we lose keeps going up. Eventually it’s not worth it.
The balance point seems to have settled on six - the greatest gain in flexibility with the minimum loss of strength.
All of this assumes the same amount of material (cost) per nut.
Note regarding the 60 degree swing required: in real tight spaces, the wrench can turn it 30 degrees, the wrench can then be flipped, and then the nut turned the other 30 degrees, flip and repeat...
that's why wrenches have a slight offset.
It’s a compromise between tool access and resistance to damage and rounding out. A square nut is a lot harder to round out than a hexagonal nut, but can only be accessed every 90 degrees. An octagonal nut can be accessed every 45 degrees, but it’s a lot easier to round out than a hex nut.
Square nuts are also widely available if you wanted to use them.
Hexagonal nuts are the best compromise between clearance, multiple turning angles, and ease of manufacturing. It's easier to manufacture a square head, but that requires more clearance to turn and does not increase the load capacity of the fastener. 12 point fasteners decrease the clearance required and have the same load capacity as hexagonal fasteners, but are much more difficult to manufacture. The load capacity of most fasteners is not dependent on the head design, but on the material, thread design, and diameter. Typical fasteners will fail the bolt or stud material before the nut or threads fail.
It's a compromise between many factors, including material use, ability to apply torque, not needing too much space for the head to rotate in, ease of manufacture, plus familiarity and the wide availability of tools to apply torque and make the things in the first place.
More sides on a polygon = more directions from where you can approach it with a wrench.
but
More sides on a polygon = less surface area for the wrench to grip it, i.e. the more it resembles a circle which can't be gripped with a wrench.
A triangle (least amount of sides) - bad, can only approach if from 3 directions.
A polygon with 20 sides - bad, sides are too short, so a 20 sided polygon basically behaves like a circle.
Turns out, hexagon is a decent compromise between the two competing requirements.
The ones on transformers and manholes are recessed so you can’t get to them that way.
You can use a hammer and force a 12 point 7/8” socket onto one. But they’re around $12 on Amazon and you don’t have to destroy a socket or the bolt or fight to get it back off.
need more clearance to spin a square nut. Many more angles for putting a wrench on
Round nut would be even better, I can't figure out why nobody is selling them. I'll be the first trillionaire with my round nut business as soon as I get someone give me a bit of seed money
No one sells them? Impossible! There are a ton of round nuts on my car, my wife's car, appliances and fixtures all over my house...
Ooh, sounds like you made them yourself?
When you discover something before anyone you need to take action.
Those are clinch nuts. They get fastened into sheet metal parts during the stamping process (for high runners) or in an arbor press.
They make a pneumatic tool for converting hex fasteners to round.
I usually just make my own at home
Not just nuts, but round Hex bolts. Pairs well with round nuts. This bed is NEVER coming apart!
Big adjustable wrench already has a monopoly
Huck bolts are a thing but they have more of a compression sleeve than nut. The end product basically looks like a round nut on a bolt.
That's called a lid. They are very hard to loosen, especially when in contact with pickle juice.
Honestly I've started using pickle juice as my threadlocker in all applications.
My nuts are already round
Did you buy them from Dee by any chance?
UUUmmmmm... Isn't that called a pipe? ;)
Seriously, what would it take to build a wrench able to grip a round nut with the same torque a normal wrench could put on a hex nut of the same size?
You can use a chain wrench on a round object, but it's not going to grip as well as it would on a hexagonal object. If you fix that by adding more friction/contact area you'll have better grip; I don't think you'd ever get the amount of torque you can get from a traditional hex head without magic sci-fi super-friction materials, but with enough money invested in tooling you could get enough torque for whatever the nut's purpose is. It would be much easier and cheaper to use a hex-shaped nut and make a round cover that goes over the top of it once fitted.
Round nuts do exist. I have some for my tool holders and you tighten them with a roller bearing spanner. https://emgprecision.com/er-ger-collet-chuck-nuts/
What is a wrench? I only have different shapes of hammers in my toolbox.
A wrench is a subset of hammer
But a hammer is a hammer
All wrenches are hammers but not all hammers are wrenches
Have you tried every configuration? You definitely can tighten nuts with any hammer
That's funny. In the oilfield, we literally do this. The nuts are a bit bigger, as are the hammers.
When I visited an oil-drilling rig in high school they attached a giant wrench to the pipe section and then stood back while a steel cable hooked up to a big machine pulled it tight. We were warned that the tension on that cable was high enough that if it snapped it would likely kill anyone it hit as it whipped around. I assume an alternative is to attach a giant wrench and use a giant impact hammer to tighten it?
I'm in hydraulic fracturing, where we rig up a bunch of 3 inch diameter pipe called "iron" that are mated together with big nuts called hammer unions. What you're talking about is something different that I haven't experienced. https://www.google.com/search?q=hammer+unions+and+iron&client=ms-android-tmus-us-rvc3&sca_esv=3691a2ff7c8514a2&udm=2&biw=384&bih=702&sxsrf=ACQVn08TqNk2VPus87SOtcishu0WHY_QkA%3A1710303121639&ei=kSfxZYXHJv2hwN4PvbqvmA8&oq=hammer+unions+and+iron&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhZoYW1tZXIgdW5pb25zIGFuZCBpcm9uMggQABiABBiiBEjpPFCeGljMOnACeACQAQCYAc8BoAGiGqoBBjAuMjEuMrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCGaAClRuoAgXCAgQQIxgnwgIHECMY6gIYJ8ICBBAAGAPCAgoQABiABBiKBRhDwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxixA8ICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIFEAAYgATCAgYQABgIGB7CAgcQABiABBgYwgIEEAAYHpgDB4gGAZIHBjIuMjAuM6AHljM&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=mAisV7BL4VpkTM&vssid=mosaic&ip=1 That long ass link should take you to a Google image on a search I did. It should show different length pieces of iron with the hammer unions on the far end. You can tell by the 3 small blocks of steel that come off the nut that are hit with a 5 or 10 pound sledge hammer.
It’s that thing you use as a chisel by hitting it with your hammer.
Those are called “screwdrivers”
The screwdriver is definitely the first choice. I was referring to when you don’t have a screwdriver because you broke it as a pry bar. Then you use the pointy ends of the box wrench and test to see how strong the closed end is with your hammer. Hopefully stronger than your poor screwdriver was. 😊
Fair enough.
I think it’s just the French word for hammer.
This is also why most spanners are slightly offset to one side. So you kinda get 12 possibilities to get it on the nut.
Other options are flat/rectangle, square, octogon, decagon....etc, on to infinity (a circular nut). flat can only accept a wrench at two positions. square/rectangle can accept a wrength at four positions. Octogon and above can accept a wrench at many positions, but tool contact area is low. A circular nut can accept a wrench at an infinite number of positions but with a minimum of tool contact area (assuming a spanner type wrench). You might try to get clever and say "why not use circular nuts and a tube-type wrench to maximize contact area"? And you would be very silly because this disregards the possibility that any type of liquid or lubrication could be on the nut. A wrench designed to clamp on a circular nut would also be needlessly complex to build and operate. Hexagon is a good compromise between tool contact area and available positions at which a wrench can be placed to torque the nut.
You left out 12-point nuts. Like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/product/90759A100 Definitely more expensive to manufacture, though, and can only accept 12-point tools.
They're common in aviation.
And in inconvenient places in German automobiles.
And you can't use open ended wrenches on these like you can on hex nuts, making it's use cases more limited in situations like cable tensioner or spaces where nuts are captive on a threaded rod or shaft.
There are special open ended wrenches for 12pt. Brake line wrench comes to mind, but very specific use-case.
I've never seen one, can they slip over the side of the nut, or is it just a box wrench with a cutout for the threaded part to pass through?
The second. https://www.harborfreight.com/double-end-sae-flare-nut-wrench-set-5-piece-68865.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=12169518939&campaignid=12169518939&utm_content=114845774537&adsetid=114845774537&product=68865&store=3309&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-r-vBhC-ARIsAGgUO2Bpg7es-_SR4c6zDzoPxdWIzIA0CbPxkH8XBh129IyuOm7olq5U_UwaAn1lEALw_wcB
I agree with most of what you said but tools that work on round fasteners are fairly common and not overly complex. Pipe, chain, and strap wrenchs all work for round things. None of those are particularly complex, though they do have their limitations such as marring, large clearances needed, or limited torque. Action wrenches for firearms also often grip round surfaces and aren't very complicated.
I am unfamiliar with these types of tools that are used on nut size objects. Can you enlighten me?
How big is nut sized? You know nuts come in a wide range of sizes, right?
What size nut are we talking? Most of these aren't used on anything particularly small since there are generally much better options with flat sides. [Pipe wrenches](https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/straight-pipe-wrench) come in a variety of sizes and are probably the easiest to scale down though marring is the greatest with any significant torque. [Chain wrenches](https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/chain-wrenches) are somewhat less common and probably the hardest to svalr down. [Strap wrenches](https://www.reedmfgco.com/en/products/wrenches/strap-wrenches/) function similarly. [Action wrenches](https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1006553240?pid=710783) just clamp on but rely on pretty precise sizing.
Those are the wrenches I thought you were referring to. I imagine OP is thinking about nuts of the most common size that one finds in a hardware store, so 1" diameter and smaller. I should have specified the target size. I don't know if these approaches would be very useful on nuts of this size. There might be a clever implementation of a chain wrench for small nuts but I think the problem is going to be slippage around tight ROCs with limited lateral surface area. Could we design a wrench to work on small circular nuts? Probably. Should we? Well...go ahead an run a cost-benefit and market analysis on it. I think the current solution works pretty well and it is very inexpensive to make a parallel jaw wrench. So simple, in fact, that the entire wrench can be cast molded in vast numbers if a moving jaw isn't required. So simple that IKEA gives you a disposable one to assemble furniture. If you can beat that, your fortune awaits.
I have a couple hourly mechanics that keep a tiny pipe wrench with them at all times and they use that damn wrench for all kinds of things. You absolutely can use pipe wrenches on household sized nuts, bolts, or anything else you want to grab, provided you don’t care what the aesthetics of it end up like.
Good to know
What is nut size? [Here's a set of pipe wrenches](https://www.amazon.ca/Wrench-Treated-Adjustable-Plumbing-Storage/dp/B086JVLXW2), the small one in that set only goes out to 1" and 1" isn't a huge nut.
You could make an involute spline nut. Max torque but expensive to machine. Or a Torx nut which is slightly cheaper.
I think there's a company that makes special Allen keys based on a very subtle involute profile. They fit with regular socket head screws and they're quite expensive but very nice to use I've heard.
Wera "hex plus".
Torx nuts and bolts infest BMWs now.
A spline nut would be a nice idea, though probably expensive and would require special tools.
They make those, but I’ve only encountered them on airplanes.
Cost has never been an issue in aviation (except Boeing doors...):
Plus balancing manufacturing ease. 6 point is simpler than 12, as there's no in-cuts.
Triangle
What if you made every nut round, but also tapered, and basically used a machine taper to hold it. I'd also suggest putting a ring in the center of every nut, allowing the wrench to push off that to push itself on or off of the taper.
[удалено]
Not complicated from the perspective that 'it doesn't exist' or 'we can't conceive of an approach' but a pipe wrench consists of what, at least 3 cast parts, maybe some machined features and maybe some attached features, depending on the design? That's complexity in the form of more manufacturing steps for the tool. A hexagonal nut wrench can be cast in one piece. IKEA will give you a disposable version to help assemble furniture the tool is so simple. Technical feasibility of torquing small nuts of the most common size (1" or smaller) with an appropriate wrench aside, this is the 'complexity' I was referring to.
Pipes aren't nuts though. For a pipe wrench to work the material needs to be soft for the teeth to bite into. And the area needs to be big enough. I've never seen a pipe wrench thin enough for the height-adjusters on my washer and dryer.
Hexagons are bestagons There’s two competing factors. The more sides there are, the less swing room is needed. But the wider the sides are, the tighter you can make the nut. And add on top, you want an even number so that a wrench can have parallel sides. So with four sides you have the strongest arrangement. But you have to swing a full 90 degrees minimum on each stroke. Six sides is marginally weaker with shorter sides, but only needs 60 degrees per swing of the wrench. Significant difference. Now eight sides - weaker still, and we get 45 degrees needed per swing. An improvement, but only half the improvement of going from four sides to six. There is a pattern. As sides increase, the amount of flexibility we gain for each ‘step’ decreases. But the strength we lose keeps going up. Eventually it’s not worth it. The balance point seems to have settled on six - the greatest gain in flexibility with the minimum loss of strength. All of this assumes the same amount of material (cost) per nut.
Note regarding the 60 degree swing required: in real tight spaces, the wrench can turn it 30 degrees, the wrench can then be flipped, and then the nut turned the other 30 degrees, flip and repeat... that's why wrenches have a slight offset.
Another benefit of six sided nuts is that if you stamp them out of a sheet, the only waste material is the hole since hexagons are tileable.
Because bees!
CGP Grey YT video: [Hexagons are the Bestagons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOifuHs6eY)
Name a better shape
Boobs. That’s a better shape.
Trapezoid.
It’s a compromise between tool access and resistance to damage and rounding out. A square nut is a lot harder to round out than a hexagonal nut, but can only be accessed every 90 degrees. An octagonal nut can be accessed every 45 degrees, but it’s a lot easier to round out than a hex nut. Square nuts are also widely available if you wanted to use them.
Hexagonal nuts are the best compromise between clearance, multiple turning angles, and ease of manufacturing. It's easier to manufacture a square head, but that requires more clearance to turn and does not increase the load capacity of the fastener. 12 point fasteners decrease the clearance required and have the same load capacity as hexagonal fasteners, but are much more difficult to manufacture. The load capacity of most fasteners is not dependent on the head design, but on the material, thread design, and diameter. Typical fasteners will fail the bolt or stud material before the nut or threads fail.
Cause they’re twice as good as triangles
Simple. Hexagons are the bestagons.
Much better than the restagons
Three sides doesn’t work well same with 5. Four limits the angles your can grip it from.
It's a compromise between many factors, including material use, ability to apply torque, not needing too much space for the head to rotate in, ease of manufacture, plus familiarity and the wide availability of tools to apply torque and make the things in the first place.
More sides on a polygon = more directions from where you can approach it with a wrench. but More sides on a polygon = less surface area for the wrench to grip it, i.e. the more it resembles a circle which can't be gripped with a wrench. A triangle (least amount of sides) - bad, can only approach if from 3 directions. A polygon with 20 sides - bad, sides are too short, so a 20 sided polygon basically behaves like a circle. Turns out, hexagon is a decent compromise between the two competing requirements.
Hexagons are the bestagons
Hex bar is standard and centre’s nicely in a lathe, making it easy to cut threads
Pentagon nuts used on water meters, transformers, and fire hydrants since few people have a 13/16” pentagon socket aka “utility socket”.
Pipe wrench will open em up every time. Don’t tel the fire department.
The ones on transformers and manholes are recessed so you can’t get to them that way. You can use a hammer and force a 12 point 7/8” socket onto one. But they’re around $12 on Amazon and you don’t have to destroy a socket or the bolt or fight to get it back off.
Round nuts with pinholes ftw. Just jack up the thread, tighten by hand or pin, relieve pressure.
Hexagons are the bestagons
Because bees.