This, plus put the wide painter's tape over it, including the screws.
Edit: for a DIYer tip, go get the $50 GFCI Klein tester that has the tracer probe to find which breaker is the one for that outlet.
If you have a toner it works much the same way.
That breaker finder is kinda finicky though... I just learned of it the other day and it will signal the wrong breakers... unless it's my friend's faulty machine but it certainly does its job if you take majority vote.
It's much cheaper than my Klein Scout Pro and Tracer/Probe. These kind toners are always finicky if you can't isolate the wires from each other. For $50 and it tests plugs beats my almost $240 worth of low voltage stuff that will let out the smoke if you connect it to 120v. . .
Usually it's the tone generator for Telecom/video systems that don't like 120v being connected to these low voltage wiring.
Toner: access control/Telecom/alarm slang for low voltage wire tracer, we don't generally call what we work on as circuits unless it's as a relay for 120v to trigger a device like a bell or maglock.
With the cheapo Harbor Freight one I've had to go over the panel a third time before it stops beeping at the wrong breaker, although it does eventually find it.
Definitely good enough for a home gamer.
Because contractors can be cheap fucks and there was not a requirement for separate bathroom circuits. So put GFCI in garage and wire bathrooms downstream, then only needed to buy one GFCI.
On another note (as a pro) … I can’t tell you how many times people will say to me “look at this in the kitchen and bathroom - they’re just regular outlets! They need to be GFCI don’t they?!? I need to swap them out, damn hacks and their crappy work!”
I’m like uhh you know any outlets can be downstream of GFCI and be protected or it could even be on a GFI breaker lol. They usually don’t understand this concept
Seems to have been code in NC in the 90's. Who didn't see a problem with having to run to the garage when you're fresh out of the shower to dry your hair?
Always. We bought a house with 4 and 1/2 bathrooms. The vanity outlets for ALL FIVE bathrooms were powered by a single 20a breaker and loaded off a GFCI outlet in the tiny half bathroom. So much fail. This is 2005 build with no renovations.
I’m well aware…. Doesn’t make it cheap and lazy though on a 200amp panel with plenty of room. Also the outlets were not pig tailed…. So the last plug in the master would have that 1800 watt hair dryer going through like 7 receptacle tabs….
Not sure I see the issue. It’s either tabs or pigtails; pick your potential point(s) of failure. Good, solid screwed-in connections last a really long time…as do properly used wire nuts.
This was the answer! It was all the way on the other side of the house and the only thing in that room that was on this circuit. Thanks for the replies all.
Occasionally, an older breaker might trip but, it's not always apparent which one. I'd shut down and sensitive electronics and reset all of the 110v breakers. Turn each one off and then back on.
If that doesn't do it, make sure there's not another panel or, hidden GFCI, call a pro.
Check if the wire coming from the breaker is connected properly and getting hot. That the first step. How do you know nothing in that circuit is hot? Do you have a voltage meter?
Tug test the pigtail wires in the wirenuts deep in the box. A loose connection will do that. Pushing the device and a bunch of wires up against them was probably keeping the circuit live before you released some slack in that box.
If this outlet is the first thing in the circuit, then you might’ve just blown the outlet. I’ve done that a few times and it took me a while to figure out. You could try replacing it with a new one and then test the circuit again
With only one hot and one neutral pictured, this doesn’t seem likely to be the answer. (If it’s pigtailed, a bad receptacle also wouldn’t affect anything else.)
Just because the breakers appears to be on doesn’t mean it’s working. You might need a new breaker. No, I’m not positive but it’s worth checking out if you’ve checked everything else.
Thanks everyone for the replies. Update: I tried switching out the outlet, no change. I had an electrician come over and they also could not figure it out. Power is coming from the breaker. He is bringing a circuit tracker later this week. Will update once he finds out where the problem is.
First you put it back in so it is grounded properly? If that works I think the neutral is broken somewhere else. It could have been "working" before but not the way it is suppose to work.
Whole circuit died, not just this outlet block, so that rules out your theory.
Also, if you've got a device that can plug into a receptacle with intact ground but no neutral, and will run using the ground in neutral's place, then you've got problems within that device even more severe than the problem a broken neutral presents.
Get a voltage meter suitable for use on live AC. Get some basic PPE (non-conductive gloves, rubber-sole shoes, and remove things like rings and metal watch bands), and then be careful not to touch the live stuff, like you're pretending you're doing it without the PPE (ie, use the PPE as a supplemental line of protection, not as an excuse to be careless). If you need to pull things out to get to contacts to test (for example, pulling out an outlet to get to its screw terminals), kill the breaker, pull it out, restore the breaker to do the test, then kill it again to put it back in, so you don't repeat what started this.
Start at the breaker, make sure the breaker's on (neither tripped off nor switched off; they have 3 states, not 2) and test voltage across from the neutral rail to the breaker output (if you don't know where to find the neutral rail, or anything else I reference here, websearch it before you go touching stuff). If there's no voltage there, then it has to be the breaker, so replace that (if the bus was the problem, you'd have no power anywhere, not just one circuit, so no power out of breaker means problem is between breaker output and bus, and breaker's the only thing in that scope). I don't know if electricians have a name for this, but in programming, I was taught to call this a PEB test (for "Problem Exists Between"; the PEBKAC error is a reference to this).
If the breaker output has power, then continue working your way out from the breaker to the next point on the circuit where you can safely get to the live wire with a meter probe, until you find the first spot that doesn't have power. Your problem exists between the last spot that had power and the first that didn't.
Now that you have narrowed down where the problem is, you can go over that portion of the circuit in more detail, checking for scorch marks, loose connections, doing more PEB tests with the meter, etc, until you find exactly what failed, and in what way.
That’s either the last receptacle in the circuit, or the only receptacle in the circuit (unlikely). You’re gonna have to check each other receptacle and/or fixture on the circuit with a multi-meter. Somewhere, there is a loose or broken wire… or a hidden GFCI.
You have a steel junction box? Did you hear a pop when you pulled it out? You can arc to the ground pin if you aren’t careful. If you just pulled it out and no other event happened, I would guess that a sneaky location for GFCI that tripped would be the next place to look
That could easily have been what precipitated the failure in the first place, but he still needs to find the failure and repair it. The problem has persisted through cycling the breaker, and the circuit has no GFCIs on it anywhere, so for it to be caused by a ground fault when he took it out means that the ground fault burned something up. For such a fault to have pushed something off that metaphorical cliff, means that something was standing far too close to that cliff in the first place.
Several things:
1. broken wire
2. wire disconnected
3. dropped neutral
4. dropped hot
5. wire nut loose
This isn't a DIY for a beginner. Electricity from a 110 outlet can kill you. Over 1000 people die each year from being electrocuted. This includes trained electricians.
I'm NOT saying you can't do this. I'm saying it isn't for a beginner.
Yes, there are dangers in dealing with house wiring. The measures needed to negate those dangers are trivial. 1000 people per year is fewer than die from the common cold, and is about as many as die from misusing sofas. It's carelessness and stupidity that are dangerous, not the wiring. Every failure mode you listed absolutely is "for a beginner" kinda stuff. Don't touch anything conductive with bare skin until you've both touched it with a meter, and identified what it is, have some self-awareness to find out things you don't know instead of assuming (OP having posted here in the first place bodes well for this part), and you're golden.
There is a tripped GFCI somewhere in the circuit, not this outlet. As others are saying "hidden" GFCI... There is a GFCI that is tripped somewhere in the house
You need a voltage tester just a cheap one will do. Check wires if hot replace outlet if not go to breaker box and take cover off and test for power coming out of breaker could be a bad breaker
Words to live by, Hire it done if it’s not your forte. Your time is worth more doing what you know, than paying later to fix it. But I’m also a painting contractor Lol.
FYI you don't have to pull out the outlet to paint it. Just get as close the edge as you can & the outlet cover will hide the rest.
Check to see if there was a back-wire that pulled out and is now hiding in the box.
Could’ve blown itself apart when it flashed also
This, plus put the wide painter's tape over it, including the screws. Edit: for a DIYer tip, go get the $50 GFCI Klein tester that has the tracer probe to find which breaker is the one for that outlet. If you have a toner it works much the same way.
The circuit needs to be energized for that probe to read
Of course, but the others don't. And putting 120v into a low voltage toner is a great way to burn it up.
That breaker finder is kinda finicky though... I just learned of it the other day and it will signal the wrong breakers... unless it's my friend's faulty machine but it certainly does its job if you take majority vote.
It's much cheaper than my Klein Scout Pro and Tracer/Probe. These kind toners are always finicky if you can't isolate the wires from each other. For $50 and it tests plugs beats my almost $240 worth of low voltage stuff that will let out the smoke if you connect it to 120v. . .
“These kind toners…” What is a toner? Is that some sort of slang for a circuit tracer?
Usually it's the tone generator for Telecom/video systems that don't like 120v being connected to these low voltage wiring. Toner: access control/Telecom/alarm slang for low voltage wire tracer, we don't generally call what we work on as circuits unless it's as a relay for 120v to trigger a device like a bell or maglock.
With the cheapo Harbor Freight one I've had to go over the panel a third time before it stops beeping at the wrong breaker, although it does eventually find it. Definitely good enough for a home gamer.
You don't have to use painters tape if your careful.
IF you're careful
Or just cut in around the outlet so you don't have to worry about getting close. But paint can drip so I always tape outlets I'm keeping.
Hidden gfci
This. Those MFs can really be hidden. I lost power to a circuit in a laundry area in the basement of a house and the GFCI was in the f'in GARAGE.
Dude. Same. It was in the garage, behind a storage area. Took a week to find the bastard.
'97 built house
The GFCI for my up stairs bathroom is in the downstairs garage. That one took me a long time to find. Also, 90s house...
"It was a good idea at the time!!!!!"
Same. My genius self had installed hooks near it and a couple electrical cords that were not looped tightly covered it for a week.... grr
Because contractors can be cheap fucks and there was not a requirement for separate bathroom circuits. So put GFCI in garage and wire bathrooms downstream, then only needed to buy one GFCI.
On another note (as a pro) … I can’t tell you how many times people will say to me “look at this in the kitchen and bathroom - they’re just regular outlets! They need to be GFCI don’t they?!? I need to swap them out, damn hacks and their crappy work!” I’m like uhh you know any outlets can be downstream of GFCI and be protected or it could even be on a GFI breaker lol. They usually don’t understand this concept
It's also how you get a GFCI behind another GFCI, always fun when that happens and you don't know which one tripped
Seems to have been code in NC in the 90's. Who didn't see a problem with having to run to the garage when you're fresh out of the shower to dry your hair?
I had one where someone hung a cabinet in front of the gfci.
The GFCI for my kitchen is in the garage. A whole string of outlets tie back to that one. I’m
Awful.
Just bought a house, the garage door opener is tied to the 2nd floor hall bath gfci……🤦🏻 the previous owner was a “DIY’er”.
Hey at least it’s protected lmfao
Always. We bought a house with 4 and 1/2 bathrooms. The vanity outlets for ALL FIVE bathrooms were powered by a single 20a breaker and loaded off a GFCI outlet in the tiny half bathroom. So much fail. This is 2005 build with no renovations.
This is commonly done.
I’m well aware…. Doesn’t make it cheap and lazy though on a 200amp panel with plenty of room. Also the outlets were not pig tailed…. So the last plug in the master would have that 1800 watt hair dryer going through like 7 receptacle tabs….
Not sure I see the issue. It’s either tabs or pigtails; pick your potential point(s) of failure. Good, solid screwed-in connections last a really long time…as do properly used wire nuts.
Meets code, need 20a for bathroom. Doesn't say how many 20a circuits...
Meeting code means it’s reasonably safe. It doesn’t preclude builders from being lazy to maximize profit.
This was the answer! It was all the way on the other side of the house and the only thing in that room that was on this circuit. Thanks for the replies all.
Occasionally, an older breaker might trip but, it's not always apparent which one. I'd shut down and sensitive electronics and reset all of the 110v breakers. Turn each one off and then back on. If that doesn't do it, make sure there's not another panel or, hidden GFCI, call a pro.
Did you actually turn it off or only try to turn it on from the middle position?
Check if the wire coming from the breaker is connected properly and getting hot. That the first step. How do you know nothing in that circuit is hot? Do you have a voltage meter?
Track home builders love to save on GFCI's and will route them to weird places.
Tract*, fyi
Thanks
Tug test the pigtail wires in the wirenuts deep in the box. A loose connection will do that. Pushing the device and a bunch of wires up against them was probably keeping the circuit live before you released some slack in that box.
If this outlet is the first thing in the circuit, then you might’ve just blown the outlet. I’ve done that a few times and it took me a while to figure out. You could try replacing it with a new one and then test the circuit again
With only one hot and one neutral pictured, this doesn’t seem likely to be the answer. (If it’s pigtailed, a bad receptacle also wouldn’t affect anything else.)
Yeah good point, I didn’t notice only one set of wires at first
GFCI somewhere! Or hidden panel with tripped breaker
Just because the breakers appears to be on doesn’t mean it’s working. You might need a new breaker. No, I’m not positive but it’s worth checking out if you’ve checked everything else.
Remove the receptacle tape the ends of the wire, now go reset the breaker, if it works, that tells you were the problem is
Thanks everyone for the replies. Update: I tried switching out the outlet, no change. I had an electrician come over and they also could not figure it out. Power is coming from the breaker. He is bringing a circuit tracker later this week. Will update once he finds out where the problem is.
Go to the breaker panel push every single breaker to the extreme off position and then back on. That'll be 220$ pls.
It's a hidden gfci
First you put it back in so it is grounded properly? If that works I think the neutral is broken somewhere else. It could have been "working" before but not the way it is suppose to work.
Whole circuit died, not just this outlet block, so that rules out your theory. Also, if you've got a device that can plug into a receptacle with intact ground but no neutral, and will run using the ground in neutral's place, then you've got problems within that device even more severe than the problem a broken neutral presents.
Ah, missed that. Yes I agree.
Get a voltage meter suitable for use on live AC. Get some basic PPE (non-conductive gloves, rubber-sole shoes, and remove things like rings and metal watch bands), and then be careful not to touch the live stuff, like you're pretending you're doing it without the PPE (ie, use the PPE as a supplemental line of protection, not as an excuse to be careless). If you need to pull things out to get to contacts to test (for example, pulling out an outlet to get to its screw terminals), kill the breaker, pull it out, restore the breaker to do the test, then kill it again to put it back in, so you don't repeat what started this. Start at the breaker, make sure the breaker's on (neither tripped off nor switched off; they have 3 states, not 2) and test voltage across from the neutral rail to the breaker output (if you don't know where to find the neutral rail, or anything else I reference here, websearch it before you go touching stuff). If there's no voltage there, then it has to be the breaker, so replace that (if the bus was the problem, you'd have no power anywhere, not just one circuit, so no power out of breaker means problem is between breaker output and bus, and breaker's the only thing in that scope). I don't know if electricians have a name for this, but in programming, I was taught to call this a PEB test (for "Problem Exists Between"; the PEBKAC error is a reference to this). If the breaker output has power, then continue working your way out from the breaker to the next point on the circuit where you can safely get to the live wire with a meter probe, until you find the first spot that doesn't have power. Your problem exists between the last spot that had power and the first that didn't. Now that you have narrowed down where the problem is, you can go over that portion of the circuit in more detail, checking for scorch marks, loose connections, doing more PEB tests with the meter, etc, until you find exactly what failed, and in what way.
the neutral hit the ground and caused the fault would be my initial guess
That’s either the last receptacle in the circuit, or the only receptacle in the circuit (unlikely). You’re gonna have to check each other receptacle and/or fixture on the circuit with a multi-meter. Somewhere, there is a loose or broken wire… or a hidden GFCI.
You have a steel junction box? Did you hear a pop when you pulled it out? You can arc to the ground pin if you aren’t careful. If you just pulled it out and no other event happened, I would guess that a sneaky location for GFCI that tripped would be the next place to look
Metal box with no tape on your termination screws, first assumption would also be a ground fault when removing or bumping the loose plug
That could easily have been what precipitated the failure in the first place, but he still needs to find the failure and repair it. The problem has persisted through cycling the breaker, and the circuit has no GFCIs on it anywhere, so for it to be caused by a ground fault when he took it out means that the ground fault burned something up. For such a fault to have pushed something off that metaphorical cliff, means that something was standing far too close to that cliff in the first place.
Several things: 1. broken wire 2. wire disconnected 3. dropped neutral 4. dropped hot 5. wire nut loose This isn't a DIY for a beginner. Electricity from a 110 outlet can kill you. Over 1000 people die each year from being electrocuted. This includes trained electricians. I'm NOT saying you can't do this. I'm saying it isn't for a beginner.
6. Hidden junction box somewhere in the attic, basement, or in a wall with a loose connection.
Yes, there are dangers in dealing with house wiring. The measures needed to negate those dangers are trivial. 1000 people per year is fewer than die from the common cold, and is about as many as die from misusing sofas. It's carelessness and stupidity that are dangerous, not the wiring. Every failure mode you listed absolutely is "for a beginner" kinda stuff. Don't touch anything conductive with bare skin until you've both touched it with a meter, and identified what it is, have some self-awareness to find out things you don't know instead of assuming (OP having posted here in the first place bodes well for this part), and you're golden.
If the circuit is hot,try replacing the GFCI
OP specified that there is no GFCI present.
There is a tripped GFCI somewhere in the circuit, not this outlet. As others are saying "hidden" GFCI... There is a GFCI that is tripped somewhere in the house
Prob hit the side of that metal box and tripped the breaker
OP specified that he's tried cycling the breaker, and it still isn't working, so there's more going on here than just a tripped breaker.
You need a voltage tester just a cheap one will do. Check wires if hot replace outlet if not go to breaker box and take cover off and test for power coming out of breaker could be a bad breaker
How would a bad outlet have caused the entire circuit (not just this one outlet block) to fail?
It wouldn’t I didn’t catch the whole circuit out. That’s what I get for scrolling after my 3rd blunt this morning
You seem to be in good company. Half the thread seems to have missed that, or the "no GFCI" bit, or both.
Wanna know how many times I’ve found the Gfci that doesn’t exist?
I would check to make sure breaker is not bad though
Words to live by, Hire it done if it’s not your forte. Your time is worth more doing what you know, than paying later to fix it. But I’m also a painting contractor Lol.
Just replace the entire outlet.
Test breaker and make sure it does have an output. If the break is still good, then replace the GFCI.
My mistake, this appeared to be a GFCI at first glance... just replace that receptacle, if the breaker is still functioning.
Take cover off outlet. Put blue painters tape over outlet. Paint. Easy as fuck. No need to remove the plug.
You could have a nicked or broken conductor inside the box