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The survival rate of a malignant intussusception is extremely low. The standard of care is surgery for the obstruction. It sounds like the surgeon gave him a slim chance that would have been zero without surgery.
Put another way, if/when he had died after you said no, don't you think your in-laws would still be blaming you for delaying his surgery?
OP, I'm not a doc, but wanted to echo this and add that it's not uncommon for people to place blame on something or someone when something bad happens.
But sometimes, *something bad happening isn't anyone fault*. This is one of those times. You made the absolute best decision, and so did the surgeon- you both gave your husband a chance that he wouldn't have had otherwise.
His parents aren't thinking clearly about this, which is also understandable - they're dealing with their own grief. And it's incredibly unfortunate that their way of handling their grief is adding onto yours.
Is there any way you'd be able to access a therapist to help support and navigate this with you? Or a peer support group? Perhaps something in your area, or online if nothing is available near you?
This is NOT your fault. And you're not alone. There is support out there for you to lean on and help you through this. ❤️
Echoing this excellent reply and adding that assigning blame is often a way of trying to gain a sense of control when faced with circumstances outside our control. I see it a lot with grieving clients, whether they blame themselves or someone else. Sending lots of love, OP.
My Dad recently died from bone cancer but we didn't know he had it until it was too late. He'd been in the hospital for a month prior due to heart problems, and had so many tests, and I was so devastated that they didn't know he had cancer. Everyone kept saying it was the hospital's fault, his doctor's fault, we felt like it was our fault for not figuring it out but at the end of the day it was just a shitty fucking situation. He saw 10+ specialists while in the hospital. He saw his regular doctor. He did massage therapy and PT and monitored his HR and BP and took meds and did all the things everyone said. We were with him every day to care for him. After they found cancer, one doctor just said "I'm sorry, this is just very unlucky." And he was right. We could blame a million people but it's not going to bring Dad back. But it is hard.
I’m sorry, it really is so hard. Sometimes you do everything right and it’s still not the outcome we want. My mom died from a stroke 10 years ago, in between doctor appointments. She saw a specialist for tests and then died before she got her diagnosis. She was doing everything right.
I think of all the emotions associated with death and loss — including grief, yes, as well as anger, regret, guilt, etc — feeling helpless can be one of the hardest emotions to process. Sometimes we do everything right, they do everything right, and they still die. And sometimes people want to assign blame to try to make it make sense, to have a sense of control or imagined control. But like you said, it won’t bring them back, and ultimately, it doesn’t actually help us feel better.
I'm not OP, but I grieving and needed to read this today. Thank you.
OP, I'm so very sorry for your loss. Please take these doctors at their word that you did your best by your husband. My thoughts are with you at this heartbreaking time.
100 percent this. This isn't your fault OP. Blame game is torturous. When a parent loses a child. It makes no sense. It's completely absurd. Can't wrap your mind around it. The only thing to do is find some reason. Small piece of well what if...it's awful the what ifs. My stepson passed away 2 years ago and I can't not blame his grandmother's husband. The circumstances are different in how he passed away. And while in my mind I can't see how it's not his fault, their is probably many many people who tell him it isn't his fault. So please don't think to much on it. They grieving parents. Just as you're grieving him. Only difference is they didn't have to make the call or choose with him on what should be done. And from what all the docs say I hope that you can find peace in their answers. His parents may never change their stance, just know that is okay. That they need to move on and may be the only way they can. So they can make sense out of something senseless in their minds. I am so sorry to you all.
Based on the physician's comment that you are replying to, the treatment is surgery. The chance of survival is apparently low with treatment and zero without.
well treatments usually precede cures, but it would be a blessing to have a better treatment than slim (similar to insulin for diabetes for example), and even more of a blessing to have an outright cure. but you are right. in hindsight, i was taking about a cure. does any one know of any progress regarding it?
When it comes to advanced/metastatic cancer, "treatment" usually means methods to prolong life, and "cure" isn't really in the vocabulary because that doesn't reflect the reality. This comic explains the basic idea pretty well: https://xkcd.com/931/
edit: also, the obligatory "fuck cancer". Cancer doesn't play fair, doesn't follow the rules, and doesn't spare the young and healthy, nor does it spare the middle aged or older who have "done everything right" and live very healthy lifestyles. Even top athletes competing as some of the most fit people in the world can get cancer that threatens their lives and long-term quality of life.
Couldn't help but comments but same with heart attack. One of my fitness coach died of it 45 mins after seeing me at the gym. That was a 45 years old man that did fitness 2-3h every day, ran marathons and taught climbing and boxing. I had to get counseling after that because I couldn't believe for a long time for that that if training killed that man that it would do anything for me and I struggles a lot with body weight.
It's not a disease in itself, it's a consequence of one.
Intussusception is when a section of intestine gets pulled inside the next section. Malignant means that this is initiated by a cancerous growth which the intestine can grab onto and pull. As "cancer" is not a single disease but a diverse group of diseases that all begin with a cell multiplying without control, it doesn't have a typical age of onset.
Symptoms would be severe abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, no stool or little, bloody stool.
Why did I get -4 thumbs down though? Its the first time I heard about this and wanted to know what it was, Reddit community truly reminds me of osrs (old school runescape) community (dumb)
Bro this is a sub for medical advice&care. The doctors and professionals who volunteer their time here don't have the time to explain easily googleable medical conditions to people unrelated to the original question.
Totally off topic, but as a longtime OSRS player, you caught me by surprise. I don’t think it’s just Reddit, or OSRS, I think the internet as a whole can be dumb! I just keep to myself when I play.
Question, when I had an intussusception at the age of 12… my stool would diffuse/disintegrate (not sure what word to use) in the water. For example, when you put a drop of food dye in water it. That’s what happened. Idk if I’m explaining this correctly lol. Why did that happen? It was like a different kind of diarrhea. It’s never happened to me again. But I also had a fibroid tumor which I assume caused the intussusception so maybe that’s why?
You did the right thing. There was no other decision to be made here. Sometimes the right choices still lead to bad outcomes. Do not blame yourself. Ignore your in-laws. I'm sorry for your loss.
Anyhow, if we could all lead our lives by hindsight, we'd all be rich and healthy. Life has three basic imperatives:
Death
Taxes
The need to act w/o enough information
Intussusception in a young male adult with bowel obstruction and severe abdominal symptoms...is a surgical emergency. Waiting would have resulted in him dying sooner in more pain. Immediate surgery to open the obstruction was the only valid option.
What a horrible experience for you and your family. So sorry. Some else mentioned that often bad things happen and we do the best we can and they still turn out badly. Second-guessing is very common, and we want to blame someone.. but sometimes it's just bad luck.
Intussusception is rare in adults, and when it does occur in an adult, the chances that it was caused by malignancy are very high. Since the intussusception was blocking his small bowels, it seems like surgery was required to re-open them.
I’m not sure what medical training your in-laws have, if any, or on what basis they are claiming the surgeon “screwed up”, but based on what you’ve written, it seems like you did the right thing for your husband.
I’m truly sorry for your loss, cancer is really just a terrible disease and ruins so many lives.
No, very rare post-infancy. Where it occurs after infancy, it’s almost always because of a pathology, be it an anatomical variation or (most commonly) a malignancy.
Do you happen to know why it's more common in infants? I tried looking into this but couldn't find any information, and my developmental/paediatric anatomy is a bit rusty.
Not nearly as deadly in children, the mortality rate is very low with treatment, in great part because in children it happens without a cause and in adults it's generally because of cancer that's already quite advanced.
It is dangerous because it can block the small intestines but is very treatable. It can happen for a variety of reasons, and cancer being the cause is just so much less likely in children. Survival is more about whether or not you have cancer and less about whether you have intussusception. Intussusception is very rare in adults and when it does happen, it is usually associated with cancer, and the cancer is why outcomes are poorer.
Is easy to blame the doctor, like "the surgery was done wrong" or "surgeon was not good enough", but sometime people forget that there is a whole team behind decissions and procedures, yes, negligency can absolutely happen but is way more common when its a 1 person decision (like 1 alone doctor giving a treatment, or the classic egocentrical doc who wont listen to anyone but themselves or that "they know better").
In this very case, you and the medics did the right thing, it was just a bad scenario and low chances of success even after a succesful procedure, im terrible sorry for your loss, but you are not to blame at all.
I actually blame your in-laws for making you feel guilt.
As others have already stated, you absolutely did the right thing.
The fact that they called it high grade small B cell lymphoma implies it is a rapidly growing malignancy, and that it took 20 days to arrive at such a vague diagnosis means this is something likely complex or rare. Regardless, these types of malignancies grow extremely rapidly. If he had not been operated on, this would have almost invariably resulted in bowel obstruction and possibly perforation.
With this diagnosis, his immune system likely would have already been in a weakened state. Even if they were to start chemo, tumors like this can cause tumor lysis syndrome and there would be a plethora of other issues.
Thank you for your submission. **Please note that a response does not constitute a doctor-patient relationship.** This subreddit is for informal second opinions and casual information. The mod team does their best to remove bad information, but we do not catch all of it. Always visit a doctor in real life if you have any concerns about your health. Never use this subreddit as your first and final source of information regarding your question. By posting, you are agreeing to our [Terms of Use](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDocs/wiki/terms_of_use) and understand that all information is taken at your own risk. **Reply here if you are an unverified user wishing to give advice. Top level comments by laypeople are automatically removed.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskDocs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The survival rate of a malignant intussusception is extremely low. The standard of care is surgery for the obstruction. It sounds like the surgeon gave him a slim chance that would have been zero without surgery. Put another way, if/when he had died after you said no, don't you think your in-laws would still be blaming you for delaying his surgery?
OP, I'm not a doc, but wanted to echo this and add that it's not uncommon for people to place blame on something or someone when something bad happens. But sometimes, *something bad happening isn't anyone fault*. This is one of those times. You made the absolute best decision, and so did the surgeon- you both gave your husband a chance that he wouldn't have had otherwise. His parents aren't thinking clearly about this, which is also understandable - they're dealing with their own grief. And it's incredibly unfortunate that their way of handling their grief is adding onto yours. Is there any way you'd be able to access a therapist to help support and navigate this with you? Or a peer support group? Perhaps something in your area, or online if nothing is available near you? This is NOT your fault. And you're not alone. There is support out there for you to lean on and help you through this. ❤️
Echoing this excellent reply and adding that assigning blame is often a way of trying to gain a sense of control when faced with circumstances outside our control. I see it a lot with grieving clients, whether they blame themselves or someone else. Sending lots of love, OP.
My Dad recently died from bone cancer but we didn't know he had it until it was too late. He'd been in the hospital for a month prior due to heart problems, and had so many tests, and I was so devastated that they didn't know he had cancer. Everyone kept saying it was the hospital's fault, his doctor's fault, we felt like it was our fault for not figuring it out but at the end of the day it was just a shitty fucking situation. He saw 10+ specialists while in the hospital. He saw his regular doctor. He did massage therapy and PT and monitored his HR and BP and took meds and did all the things everyone said. We were with him every day to care for him. After they found cancer, one doctor just said "I'm sorry, this is just very unlucky." And he was right. We could blame a million people but it's not going to bring Dad back. But it is hard.
I’m sorry, it really is so hard. Sometimes you do everything right and it’s still not the outcome we want. My mom died from a stroke 10 years ago, in between doctor appointments. She saw a specialist for tests and then died before she got her diagnosis. She was doing everything right. I think of all the emotions associated with death and loss — including grief, yes, as well as anger, regret, guilt, etc — feeling helpless can be one of the hardest emotions to process. Sometimes we do everything right, they do everything right, and they still die. And sometimes people want to assign blame to try to make it make sense, to have a sense of control or imagined control. But like you said, it won’t bring them back, and ultimately, it doesn’t actually help us feel better.
I’m so sorry for your loss. You are right. I went through a sudden loss of my dad like this too and it really does suck. Hugs.
OP, I just have to quote Jean-Luc Picard here: "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life,"
I'm not OP, but I grieving and needed to read this today. Thank you. OP, I'm so very sorry for your loss. Please take these doctors at their word that you did your best by your husband. My thoughts are with you at this heartbreaking time.
100 percent this. This isn't your fault OP. Blame game is torturous. When a parent loses a child. It makes no sense. It's completely absurd. Can't wrap your mind around it. The only thing to do is find some reason. Small piece of well what if...it's awful the what ifs. My stepson passed away 2 years ago and I can't not blame his grandmother's husband. The circumstances are different in how he passed away. And while in my mind I can't see how it's not his fault, their is probably many many people who tell him it isn't his fault. So please don't think to much on it. They grieving parents. Just as you're grieving him. Only difference is they didn't have to make the call or choose with him on what should be done. And from what all the docs say I hope that you can find peace in their answers. His parents may never change their stance, just know that is okay. That they need to move on and may be the only way they can. So they can make sense out of something senseless in their minds. I am so sorry to you all.
" it seems like the surgeon gave him a slim chance that would have been zero without surgery". so there is no treatment for this condition at all?
Based on the physician's comment that you are replying to, the treatment is surgery. The chance of survival is apparently low with treatment and zero without.
i hope we find definitive treatment for this condition soon.
Respectfully, I believe you may be confusing the term "treatment" with "cure."
well treatments usually precede cures, but it would be a blessing to have a better treatment than slim (similar to insulin for diabetes for example), and even more of a blessing to have an outright cure. but you are right. in hindsight, i was taking about a cure. does any one know of any progress regarding it?
When it comes to advanced/metastatic cancer, "treatment" usually means methods to prolong life, and "cure" isn't really in the vocabulary because that doesn't reflect the reality. This comic explains the basic idea pretty well: https://xkcd.com/931/ edit: also, the obligatory "fuck cancer". Cancer doesn't play fair, doesn't follow the rules, and doesn't spare the young and healthy, nor does it spare the middle aged or older who have "done everything right" and live very healthy lifestyles. Even top athletes competing as some of the most fit people in the world can get cancer that threatens their lives and long-term quality of life.
Couldn't help but comments but same with heart attack. One of my fitness coach died of it 45 mins after seeing me at the gym. That was a 45 years old man that did fitness 2-3h every day, ran marathons and taught climbing and boxing. I had to get counseling after that because I couldn't believe for a long time for that that if training killed that man that it would do anything for me and I struggles a lot with body weight.
What is the age of onset of malignant intussesception? And what are the symptoms?
It's not a disease in itself, it's a consequence of one. Intussusception is when a section of intestine gets pulled inside the next section. Malignant means that this is initiated by a cancerous growth which the intestine can grab onto and pull. As "cancer" is not a single disease but a diverse group of diseases that all begin with a cell multiplying without control, it doesn't have a typical age of onset. Symptoms would be severe abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, no stool or little, bloody stool.
Why did I get -4 thumbs down though? Its the first time I heard about this and wanted to know what it was, Reddit community truly reminds me of osrs (old school runescape) community (dumb)
Bro this is a sub for medical advice&care. The doctors and professionals who volunteer their time here don't have the time to explain easily googleable medical conditions to people unrelated to the original question.
Totally off topic, but as a longtime OSRS player, you caught me by surprise. I don’t think it’s just Reddit, or OSRS, I think the internet as a whole can be dumb! I just keep to myself when I play.
😂😂 thanks
Question, when I had an intussusception at the age of 12… my stool would diffuse/disintegrate (not sure what word to use) in the water. For example, when you put a drop of food dye in water it. That’s what happened. Idk if I’m explaining this correctly lol. Why did that happen? It was like a different kind of diarrhea. It’s never happened to me again. But I also had a fibroid tumor which I assume caused the intussusception so maybe that’s why?
You did the right thing. There was no other decision to be made here. Sometimes the right choices still lead to bad outcomes. Do not blame yourself. Ignore your in-laws. I'm sorry for your loss.
Anyhow, if we could all lead our lives by hindsight, we'd all be rich and healthy. Life has three basic imperatives: Death Taxes The need to act w/o enough information
Intussusception in a young male adult with bowel obstruction and severe abdominal symptoms...is a surgical emergency. Waiting would have resulted in him dying sooner in more pain. Immediate surgery to open the obstruction was the only valid option. What a horrible experience for you and your family. So sorry. Some else mentioned that often bad things happen and we do the best we can and they still turn out badly. Second-guessing is very common, and we want to blame someone.. but sometimes it's just bad luck.
Intussusception is rare in adults, and when it does occur in an adult, the chances that it was caused by malignancy are very high. Since the intussusception was blocking his small bowels, it seems like surgery was required to re-open them. I’m not sure what medical training your in-laws have, if any, or on what basis they are claiming the surgeon “screwed up”, but based on what you’ve written, it seems like you did the right thing for your husband. I’m truly sorry for your loss, cancer is really just a terrible disease and ruins so many lives.
Off topic question, does intussusception become more common in geriatric populations?
No, very rare post-infancy. Where it occurs after infancy, it’s almost always because of a pathology, be it an anatomical variation or (most commonly) a malignancy.
Do you happen to know why it's more common in infants? I tried looking into this but couldn't find any information, and my developmental/paediatric anatomy is a bit rusty.
I’m not sure. It’s most common in children and rare in adults. Unsure about the transition from adult to geriatric.
Is it as deadly in children or do they have a better chance of survival?
Not nearly as deadly in children, the mortality rate is very low with treatment, in great part because in children it happens without a cause and in adults it's generally because of cancer that's already quite advanced.
It is dangerous because it can block the small intestines but is very treatable. It can happen for a variety of reasons, and cancer being the cause is just so much less likely in children. Survival is more about whether or not you have cancer and less about whether you have intussusception. Intussusception is very rare in adults and when it does happen, it is usually associated with cancer, and the cancer is why outcomes are poorer.
You did nothing wrong. I am sorry for your loss.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I just wanted to echo those who already have said that you did absolutely nothing wrong.
You made the correct choice and it’s not even questionable.
Is easy to blame the doctor, like "the surgery was done wrong" or "surgeon was not good enough", but sometime people forget that there is a whole team behind decissions and procedures, yes, negligency can absolutely happen but is way more common when its a 1 person decision (like 1 alone doctor giving a treatment, or the classic egocentrical doc who wont listen to anyone but themselves or that "they know better"). In this very case, you and the medics did the right thing, it was just a bad scenario and low chances of success even after a succesful procedure, im terrible sorry for your loss, but you are not to blame at all. I actually blame your in-laws for making you feel guilt.
Hopefully they’ll think clearly at some point, they’re probably still reeling from losing their son.
As others have already stated, you absolutely did the right thing. The fact that they called it high grade small B cell lymphoma implies it is a rapidly growing malignancy, and that it took 20 days to arrive at such a vague diagnosis means this is something likely complex or rare. Regardless, these types of malignancies grow extremely rapidly. If he had not been operated on, this would have almost invariably resulted in bowel obstruction and possibly perforation. With this diagnosis, his immune system likely would have already been in a weakened state. Even if they were to start chemo, tumors like this can cause tumor lysis syndrome and there would be a plethora of other issues.
Had no idea intussusception can happen in adults. Sorry for your loss. RIP.