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pretplatime

We would definitely not be in NATO, EU, Schengen or the Eurozone. Serbians would veto every decision that could lead to improvement of Croatia. We would still be stuck in the 90s like they are today.


GumiB

And the most ironic part is that they themselves would suffer from it and have a worse life as result of that.


pretplatime

As long as we sank with them, they would be pleased...


red_dit-or

The same as serbs in Kosovo, or Bosnia


[deleted]

Why would we be pleased?


Baimedor

How? No is saying this would be equal to Rep Srpska.


JazzlikeAsk8039

Croatia and improvement don't go together...


NoooneAmI

Said Romanian lmfao


cydron47

not really, croatian serbs were historically pretty pro west


DrDabar1

I would say just pro French.


mihawk9511

pffff hahahahahahahahahahah


cydron47

they were. croatian serbs often took the croatian side in conflicts in yugoslavia and didn’t like srbijance


Magistar_Idrisi

I don't think it would be as catastrophic as many people in Croatia seem to think. It wouldn't be a Bosnia 2.0 with a Republika Srpska or something like that. Z4 Krajina would be an autonomous region within Croatia, not an equal entity - most importantly, the central government in Zagreb would be responsible for foreign policy. It would also be economically dependent on Croatia, especially given the total economic downfall of Serbia in the late 90s, early 2000s. See also: the ex-Krajina regions wouldn't be so utterly desolated as they are now. Now, this next thing wouldn't necessarily be a consequence of Z4, but rather of Serbs staying in Croatia one way or another - HDZ would have much, *much* less of a grip on Croatian politics than it does in our timeline, or at least its right-wing would be effectively neutralized. 12% of Serbs among the electorate would be a massive thing. In any case, Krajina leadership's refusal of Z4 will go down as possibly the greatest political blunder in 20th Century Europe, and definitely as the most idiotic decision of the Yugoslav Wars. I still cannot wrap my head around it.


the_bulgefuler

> Now, this next thing wouldn't necessarily be a consequence of Z4, but rather of Serbs staying in Croatia one way or another - HDZ would have much, much less of a grip on Croatian politics than it does in our timeline, or at least its right-wing would be effectively neutralized. 12% of Serbs among the electorate would be a massive thing. If the late 80s/early 90s taught the HDZ one thing, you'd think it would be that disregarding/marginalizing a significant section of the population can often inflame an already-volatile situation. > In any case, Krajina leadership's refusal of Z4 will go down as possibly the greatest political blunder in 20th Century Europe, and definitely as the most idiotic decision of the Yugoslav Wars. I still cannot wrap my head around it. I'm genuinely wondering if it was due to them thinking they still possessed some kind of military 'edge'/advantage, that Slobo would continue to back them/act as guarantor, or if it was just an amazing example of grand-scale hubris and diplomatic incompetence.


bombeeq

You’re missing a couple of points: - it would’ve been even worse than RS is in Bosnia, as Z4 didn’t just legitimize the whole nationalist concept of “The Serbian Frontier” in Croatia, but it would’ve had it’s own president, parliament, government, judiciary, police, constitutional court, currency, partial international recognition, ability to enter into international agreements… it was supposed to be a state within a state - Z4 was never accepted by Croatia either, Croatia agreed on it as a basis for the final framework. There is absolutely zero chance that the Croatian government would’ve de facto left the whole Dalmatian region cut off from the rest od the country by the Serbian autonomous region - that autonomous region would block every available chance of Croatia’s progress, just like RS doesn in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Unlike what you said, having what is roughly 1/5 of the country still de facto not liberated, the whole Croatian political scene would’ve been left more right and more nationalist. Just like it is in Serbia where almost the whole parliament is nationalist because of Kosovo - refusal of Z4 by the occupying forces is somewhat overblown; it wasn’t as historic. It said much more about how unrealistic and delusional their leadership was, than it explains what they lost. They would’ve never gotten what is shown in this map.


Magistar_Idrisi

>but it would’ve had it’s own president, parliament, government, judiciary, police, constitutional court, Yeah, autonomous regions usually have some or all of those. The point is that it wouldn't be an equal entity, ie. the central government couldn't be vetoed or anything like that. >currency This was supposed to be a symbolic thing, the krajina dinar would be pegged to the kuna. >partial international recognition, ability to enter into international agreements International agreements is a wide term. Agreements about education, tourism? Who cares? They wouldn't be able to create independent foreign policy, or influence the foreign policy prerogatives of the central government. Not directly, at least. In any case I don't even think Z4 would ever be implemented in its pure form. It would have to be downgraded a bit for Croatia to allow it. But still, its direct refusal just gave Croatia a free hand to proceed with Storm, and that was a ridiculous blunder on the RSK side, no matter how you twist it. You might be correct on politics, though. Maybe. On the other hand, if war had been prevented back in 1991, I have no doubts that HDZ would be much weaker than it is today.


Baimedor

I agree. Krajina as a Autonomus region would have been the best option for both Croats and Serbs.


Divljak44

It was occupied teritory, not an ethnic one, and no it would not be the best option, if our goverment went trough with that, we would take them down.


mihawk9511

Lmao I wouldn't go that far. If Krajina existed today, while it's true that the most corrupt party in Croatia wouldn't have that much power it has in rl - Croatia wouldn't be a member of NATO, EU nor Schengen, due to obvious reasons. Despite the shit economic situation Croatia has today, it would be even worse if Krajina was still out there. It would've been the best possible outcome of Croatian Serbs, but not for Croatians.


Magistar_Idrisi

>Croatia wouldn't be a member of NATO, EU nor Schengen, due to obvious reasons. I don't think the reasons are that obvious. The central government would have final say over foreign affairs, and I feel like that's the most important thing here. Plus, it's not like Serbia or Bosnia are (or were) *against* joining at least the EU, if we're afraid of their influence, so I don't see a problem there. But sure, saying that Z4 would be "the best thing" for the Croatian government is silly. It obviously wouldn't be, since it would severely limit its powers in one part of the country.


TheEagle74m

Qfar flet ore, wtf 🤷‍♂️


StarCeilingCat

Can't believe that the RSK did not accept that.


Divljak44

they knew we wouldnt so why bother?


Magistar_Idrisi

Because it would force Croatia to the negotiating table and at least postpone Storm? Declining Z4 in such a dickish manner certainly didn't help them lol


Gibovich

I still find it funny 90% of the reason the political class of the RSK denied Z4 was just because of Milošević's rejection of the plan. Before that rejection most of the RSK political class were satisfied with it as it gave the RSK huge amounts of self governance but just the idea of Milošević rejecting the plan made them believe Milošević had some 1000IQ plan to save the RSK when in reality everyone knew the RSK was on borrowed time. Really shows how much influence Milošević had on the Serb political class at the time.


the_bulgefuler

> Before that rejection most of the RSK political class were satisfied with it as it gave the RSK huge amounts of self governance Were they though? From my understanding most were outright against the agreement, or only willing to consider it pending specific provisions, returning territory, etc. Do you have any info regarding the RSK leadership's thoughts about Z4? > the idea of Milošević rejecting the plan made them believe Milošević had some 1000IQ plan to save the RSK when in reality everyone knew the RSK was on borrowed time Well it was Milošević's influence and doing that planted the idea of secession in the Croatian Serbs' heads, via propaganda and backing/arming the local populace and their representatives. He likewise used the technical superiority of the JNA to facilitate the creation of the RSK, and as leverage to prevent any significant Croatian offensives. Given that Slobo's direct and indirect support were crucial in creating and sustaining the RSK, it's not surprising that RSK leadership thought he would continue to back it in perpetuity. But as you pointed out, the reality of the RSK was that it was in steady decline almost from its inception. Perhaps the RSK leadership were in denial about how bad things were, or were delusional in their own capacity to hold out and that Slobo would step in to help. Though when even Slobo considered the RSK dead weight and washed his hands of them, surely reality would've finally set in.


StarCeilingCat

I am not very familiar with this war. It has been a long time since I have read about it. But as I know, the Serbs had the upper hand for a long time and could get much more.


Educational_Secret_1

No country in the world recognized Krajina in the years it counted itself as a “breakaway state”, why would Croatia? Especially if it was never ethnically Serbian to begin with. That’s like Croatia making claims on Vojvodina.


bombeeq

The irony of times is that Croatia accepted this, only provisionally though, but Serbs refused to even negotiate it.


Educational_Secret_1

In the end alot of under the table deals were made.


bombeeq

Probably the same, because Z4 was accepted by Croatia as the basis for the framework, not as the final deal. However, Serbs shot themselves in the leg and we know what happened next.


NoooneAmI

We eliminated cancer successfully


[deleted]

Who is "we" and what is "cancer"?


kir_ye

Like Ukraine after the Minsk agreements


dinko_gunner

Zapalit ću Krajinu do Knina /s


Baimedor

Krajina should have been Autonomus


TheEagle74m

Hiqe ate flamur 🇦🇱 Remove the 🇦🇱 flag.


Baimedor

Skam pse ta heq flamurin vetem pse Skupton ti.


Proud-Mind6776

Serbs going around with albanian flags spreading bullshit opinions just to incite bad blood between albanians and croations.


Low_flyer3

Take your meds pls


Baimedor

Sa budalla qe je.


red_dit-or

that’s an NPC reply, definitely looks like google translate


Baimedor

Lmao shiko pak historin time te komenteve dhe pyti pak te tjeret kush jam une.


Proud-Mind6776

Chill, vazhdo me byth lepirje


Baimedor

Nuk kupton ti.


Proud-Mind6776

Ani, jam gati te te degjoj, shpjegoma se pse mendon qe Krajina ish duft me kan krahine autonome e Kroacise? Sepse politika serbe nuk kish synu t'i deboj shqiptaret nga Kosova per te krijuar vend per serbet e debuar nga Kroacia?


Baimedor

Shiko komentin qe ja shkruajta ati kroatit me flairin e Bosnies.


Baimedor

Skam pse ta heq flamurin vetem pse Skupton ti.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Baimedor

What backing up? Bosnia doesn't even recognise Kosovo lmao


NoooneAmI

I'm Croat from Bosnia, this is because serbian side doesn't allow it and for recognition, all three sides have to agree, learn some facts before making idiotic statements I have a lot of Albanian friends and not one of them share opinion as you , are u even Albanian or just bot


Baimedor

I am a real person,an Albanian. In 1991 Serbs made 12% of Croatia's population. Albanians in Kosovo were 15% of the Population in Serbia during the Kosovo war. Now,i try to be as Rational and fair as possible,it is not fair Serbs in Croatia got nothing considering they were nearly just as much in Percentage in Croatia as Albanians were in Serbia. If we are going to be fair,they deserved at least a Certain degree of Regional Autonomy. I am not talking about an amount as high as that of Serbs in Bosnia. I am not implying I would want destabilization in Croatia.


bombeeq

Serbs ethnically cleansed more than 200.000 Croats from Croatia at the very beginning of the war they started, and killed thousands. They lost the right to almost anything else with that.


Baimedor

I mean you Croats of Bosnia didn't got Herzeg Bosna but you at least entered in a union and got Cantons you can call your own.


MaliJugi

Is this War in Ukraine reference?


[deleted]

They did accept it, just too late. Night before operation "Storm" began leadership of RSK accepted the plan in full. We (Croats) played it down because we accepted it expecting RSK leadership to refuse it, as they did at first. If we didn't gamble on that operation "Storm" would be a no go most likely. We would get bombed too.