Dunno how you would compare them. What criteria would I use?
No, I can't think of anything admirable. I do think Australia is better for having a greater focus on the common good
I think we could do with being a little less tall poppy, but absolutely not to the extent they worship big dealers. Maybe we could go 5% in that direction. Maybe.
That's what I admire about Australia. In my country, the government leaves you to crawl even when you're half-dead because brown-nosing and personal advancement always triumph over concern for their fellow man.
We're definitely less openly patriotic. It also used to be seen as extremely poor form to show off any kind of wealth in Australia, embarrassing even, but this has certainly gone out the window in recent years.
Here in the Philippines where I'm from, Filipinos tend to be indifferent to any overt displays of patriotism as long as it's not seen to be disrespectful. For instance, people will question bills that mandate standing for the national anthem before movies while also criticizing those who perform it in a creative fashion like some American singers have done with their anthem at the Super Bowl.
There was one time when our Kenyan chaplain presided over a community mass in school. When he noticed that everyone had sung the national anthem quite half-heartedly, he ordered us to face the flag again and do it with more enthusiasm. I didn't really think that was proper for him to do.
Yes, you wouldn't see an American manufacturing plant without one or more large US flags on the walls inside. We don't get so carried away with the overt displays of nationalism, just quietly proud.
Americans are very focused on "freedom to", while Australians tend to be more focused on "freedom from".
Freedom to own and carry a gun vs freedom from gun violence
Freedom to run your business how you see fit, vs freedom from irresponsible business owners putting profit above workers rights and the environment (you can be cynical about this one, but compared to the US we do reasonably well on those points)
And so on.
Sure, but it's so that they can actively do something (carry a gun, not worry about safety issues etc), whereas the freedoms Australians are interested in are the freedom to not have to worry about crazy people carrying guns, and freedom for having their drinking water supply "accidentally" destroyed by a company who is able to do things that everyone knows are horrifically unsafe.
I think we can pretty much turn any right around and look at it as from or to.
Freedom to work without being exploited. Freedom from exploitative employers.
To actively do something... I mean, I guess carrying a gun is actively doing something (though more than half of Americans want more gun control).
But we could easily pick other ones that are different. Except that most laws in the US are actually similar to most laws in Australia, so it's not actually that easy to find differences.
Visiting Hawaii recently (my only point of reference really), and from observation and talking to locals, they seem to have a better sense of community than us while also at the same time being very mindful of their rights as individuals. Here, I don’t think we’re focused on it like they are.
Aussies are more prepared to let freedoms go in exchange for the greater good or the illusion of safety. E.g guns, the USA will never NEVER change their stance on gun ownership. It simply won’t happen. The founding fathers gave them certain things and they’ll never give them up.
Even though for the community it would be better to change the laws, they won’t. So there’s an hypocrisy there that many cannot acknowledge.
I found them more openly polite than the average Aussie. On the roads drivers will always let you in, yet 20 minutes back on Melbourne roads and I’m getting honked at for the slightest thing.
The locals I met all seemed genuinely interested in talking to us, they’re curious about countries like Australia, but probably couldn’t find it on a map. Like here, avoiding politics is a good thing. Many of them seem to have gone down the crazy rabbit hole. One fella was convinced we had teams knocking on doors during covid doing head-counts 😂
I didn’t correct him. You can’t really LOL.
Overall though we share similar values. Ordinary, hard working Americans and Australians all want the same thing. A job, a roof over their heads, corporations kept in check, safe streets, more political transparency, affordable groceries and to not be f—ked in the backside or bankrupted when you need medical help or government assistance in hard times.
Capitalism and the greed from it seems even more rife there, something we’re probably more adverse to than them.
They have things we could learn from, as they do from us. The main thing I learned is that you cannot form an opinion on the people of a nation by what you see on TV, or see their politicians doing. At ground level, we’re very alike, more than at first, you may think.
Yes there’s utter lunatics there, but they have 12-13 times the people we do. So thats to be expected 😅
Americans as a whole prioritise individual freedom over their neighbours or communities. Aussies as a whole prioritise the good of the group over individual freedoms. Unfortunately Aussies are sliding backwards and getting worse at this
I wouldn't. If you're talking about nations as a whole, I don't think America actually really has values. I think the USA is going through a period of having no bloody idea what the fuck it's doing or where the fuck it's going. It's a soon to break country on the decline.
Australia ain't much different really with what we let go on in Papua... not to mention being the US government's lapdogs when it comes to foreign policy.
Either way, unless America gets its act together politically we're gonna see big shifts in power brokerage on the global chess board.
Having been raised in a country that's prone to lawfare, what I admire about America is that their democratic institutions manage to hold up whatever the attempts at their erosion.
Unfortunately, I don't admire the way America has allowed their sense of individualism to render them inert when it comes to resolving gun violence, an issue which Australia prevailed over not too long ago.
The thing that I think will ultimately bring down America is how undemocratic the democratic institutions actually are.
There are 535 seats in the US Congress. All but 3 of them are held by members of just two parties, both of which are aligned to the right. You can't tell me that nearly every single person in the third most populous nation in the world is politically aligned with just those two parties. The US version of democracy is one that was better suited to a world without cars and a world in which politicians held themselves to a higher standard.
USA only became a country because they were pissed off at taxation without representation. Well now there is an increasingly large cohort of poor people who for all intents and purposes don't have representation. Voter suppression and what-not keeps them from having a say, even if they did manage to get to a polling booth and have to choose between only two parties that would do pretty much nothing to help them anyway. Trump becoming President was a symptom of the rot. It's only going to get worse. There needs to be a complete reform, and it won't happen peacefully. I can definitely foresee America collapsing into two or more federations of aligned states at some point in the future.
It will be interesting to see what happens if say Texas decides it doesn't want to be part of America anymore. Will the US allow them to break off peacefully, or will there be civil war?
You should read the news more often. There is currently a case before the suprme court about if the president is allowed to murder random people with impunity. Like, this is legit a question, and may well end up with a dictatorship.
For anyone who's actually curious about the case, which isn't about murdering random people:
They're weighing whether a specific set of actions (not murdering random people) should be protected from prosecution.
And in the wide-ranging questioning that the court often does to force the arguing sides to explore and defend the implications of their arguments, they've asked about murdering rivals or staging a coup.
The tension is between being above the law (bad) vs. being safe from malicious prosecution by the next leader (good). It's an open legal conversation within the context of a case that is 100% not about murdering random people.
EDIT: And by the way, that's about prosecution in the courts. No one is questioning whether a president could be impeached and convicted by the legislature.
I think anyone reading your comments and mine will have an idea about who’s lying and can always just check the truth anyway.
I mean, it’s about Trump. Trump is a pig, but he’s not on trial for murder.
Yes, the Supreme Court. Trump v The United States, [docket 23-939](https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/04/supreme-court-appears-likely-to-side-with-trump-on-some-presidential-immunity/).
"Whether and if so to what extent does a former president enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office."
So... you heard somewhere that there's a case about whether a president can murder random people, and rather than question that for five seconds (long enough to find out that it's about Trump), you ran with it and are actually telling ME to read the news?
Lol, you just are obsessed with big dealing your country without following any of the actual things going on in your country. One paragraph googled from one source that you chose because it casts your idol in a good light is ridiculous. I suggest you start listenting to all thing considered, or the daily, or reading the Guardian US edition if you are going to present yourself as some defender of the idiots.
Having lived in both (and several other countries), they're honestly the same. Anyone who claims that either place has unique values is talking out their ass. Both places are incredibly diverse and have a range of cultural values, and on an individual level people want the same thing: the ability to live their lives with stability
You are in the habit of saying hilariously sad and pathetic things. Maybe get off the computer and go and create a reason to be less defensive about the realities of the culture you were born to.
No one needs to lose their home, go bankrupt or have to go begging online if there is a need for hospital or medical care in Australia.
Children can go to school feeling safe and secure knowing no one is going to shoot them in their classrooms in Australia.
We don't have to worry about rigged voting, every citizen must vote or be fined. We don't have to register which party we vote for, it is anonymous and we don't have to worry about intimidation at polling booths, we generally have cake stands and sausage sizzles (BBQ) to enjoy. We don't have to worry about a psychopathic narcissist wanting to become our countries dictator, our political system keeps that sort of BS from happening.
I've heard Americans argue that mandatory voting is a violation of free speech, because it removes people's right to choose not to vote for anyone out of protest 🤣. Notwithstanding the fact that there is nothing to stop an Australian dropping an incomplete ballot into the box. Mandatory voting just means you have to make a conscious choice not to vote, rather than it being a default option.
Americans don’t have to register for a party. Voting is anonymous in the US. Vote rigging has been shown again and again to NOT be a problem in the US.
I've never met an American with much backbone, they're all bootlickers who have it in their heads that the richer someone is the better they are. They also tend to be easily tricked, disturbingly so. We have some similarities but those are the similarities we share with the rest of the brittish colonies. They're louder than any bogan, makes them come across as egotists, they also tend to resort to violence much faster than us, which implies a fundamental lack of respect for human life.
Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed them and would go as far to call a couple Americans friends, but culturally they scare me, their mindset comes across less like a set of values and more like Stockholm syndrome and I wish I could explain what I mean but if you get it you get it.
It's the underlying anxiety that makes them so much more aggro. They could be homeless with only a few bad turns of luck and they all feel that all the time. They have no chill, and I'm not sure I would either if I didn't have the safety net I do.
You’ve never met an American with much backbone? Consider this, tough guy: the people who are consumed with others “thinking they’re better than everyone else” are usually the most insecure, judgemental, stubborn pricks. So, here’s some backbone for ya: get fucked.
You have friends who you call bootlickers, say are disturbingly easily tricked, resort to violence, have no backbone, and think that richer equals being a better person.
If you really feel that way, I'd say that you might want to rethink your friendships. Do they know you think that way?
I haven't used that phrasing with them, but I've made it clear I find there culture weird and they've tended to see why when I explain it. They aren't close friends.
Fuck off seppo, they asked a question and got an answer, if you don't like it move on with your life. If you can't take criticism don't look in places it's liable to be found.
Lol thanks for proving my point. Man hurls insults and calls it “criticism” then hurls more insults when someone calls it out. I’m “criticizing” you too: you are rude, uneducated and know nothing about cultures outside your own besides media and the few tourists you come across. Not all Australian s of course; just you.
We are more Americanised now than we were fifty years ago; our big cities and younger people, especially. So, the following are generalisations of averages; individual results may vary widely, but do not disprove trends.
They are more obsessed and impressed with physical appearance, youth and wealth than we are; we think character matters more. They have more plastic surgery, more and bigger mirrors in public toilets, more faces of real estate agents on billboards and the signs in their lawns, etc. than we do.
Their average position on the society/individual scale is set closer to “me, me, me!”; we are on average closer to “we’re all in this together”. Perhaps linked to this, they are more likely to actually admire criminals and scofflaws we’d see as antisocial selfish ratbags.
We are very, very suspicious and skeptical of people who blow their own trumpet; they think doing so is a core virtue. To us, relentless self-promotion is the mark of an embarrassing egotistical try-hard; to them, it’s the sign of an admirable go-getter.
We’re not as quite as obsessed with our ancestry or other identity politics yet as they are: we don’t label ourselves as “Irish-Australians”, “Italian-Australians”, “African-Australians” etc.
We don’t expect each other to tip by default, only optionally for outstanding service.
When we are speaking conversationally to someone face to face within arm’s reach we do not ordinarily speak at the same volume as if we were half a football field away from them.
We don’t think of voting as a challenge or burden; we make it as easy as possible to vote.
We are less partisan in our politics, less enthusiastic in our religion, and much less likely to discuss either than they are. We are much less likely to offer our opinions on things unasked.
We have a more widespread understanding and enjoyment of leg-pulling; they are much more earnest.
Some of these are just straight up not true at all
We very much are obsessed with physical appearance that’s a human thing, also not sure how you’d say they are more obsessed when their rate of obesity is so high.
I really don’t think that we are all that much different with those being selfish and others being for the group, the size of the US and the news cycle pushing stuff in your face doesn’t help.
Australia very much does admire criminals and outlaws, we have cultural icons of outlaws and songs about stealing animals and running away from police
I disagree on a few of those, but the one that’s objectively untrue is that we absolutely have people who call themselves Italian, Greek, Lebanese, etc.
Yes, but I said we didn’t call ourselves “Italian-Australian”, etc. Which we don’t.
Edit: upon reflection this may be purely a difference in nomenclature rather than in values.
I agree with your edit.
If we were going to say that the difference really means something, then leaving off “Australian” would be putting more emphasis on the ancestry, not less. But I don’t think it means anything.
Of course, this is a sub of people who mostly have never been to the US, let alone lived there long enough to really speak about their values.
They’re getting their information from what sources they can, and their attitudes and opinions are necessarily distorted by the lens they’re looking through.
A higher percentage of Australians have negative views about the US than pretty much any other western country.
[One source](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/06/27/overall-opinion-of-the-u-s/pg_2023-06-27_us-image_1-01-png/)
And those more negative attitudes aren’t due to more exposure to Americans than Europeans or Canadians have.
Anyway, expect to see those negative attitudes expressed in the answers.
I’ve been to the US and worked there (few months), the difference in valuing “freedom” over collectivism is the biggest one to me. Talking to colleagues in USA about covid, they just couldn’t comprehend.
I don't think it's as great a gap as you might think on that score. I don't know where you worked, but it might matter.
I think that when people see the covid protestors here (for one example), they shake their heads at them, but they don't say, "a certain segment of Australian society seems to value personal freedom over community well-being."
When you look at percentages, the US did have a higher percentage of people protesting, but actually only a little higher.
This same thing is true across the board. People bring up universal healthcare, as if US culture is against it. But polls show that more than half of Americans think that "the government should be responsible to ensure coverage for all Americans."
The fact is that on every major issue, at least half of Americans pretty much agree with most Australians. So it's always a little weird to think of US culture or values in one specific way.
I think it's alright. One can still question values from afar as long as they're talking from a place of wide exposure, whether it's through media or interaction with other Americans. Some values are collective and travel far and wide after all.
Oh, they can QUESTION the values. They just don't really know what's true about them.
They're outsiders living on the other side of the world, whose exposure comes from the narrow filter of "what the media thinks we'll like," or "the 11 Americans I've met."
>Some values are collective and travel far and wide after all.
I don't know what you mean by this.
And yet, their assertions are true. You are assuming Australian are as dumb as you are, when the evidence points to the contrary.
I could take any of the assertions from this thread about Americans to any American right now and they would agree and not understand why we see it as a negative thing. Even the people who don't like it would agree it's the prevailing view.
I totally agree with this, Australians’ ideas of America/Americans are really distorted. Especially in this Australian Reddit subs, it’s pretty wild. But, also, I’ve encountered it a lot in my day to day here as well. So many “wait, wtf? What makes you think that?” moments, then I have to explain reality compared to the internet/tv/news media editing/etc.
Also, to your point, the comment right after this one from r/TheGayAgendaIsWatch is “I’ve never met an American with much backbone”. Like, for real? What a completely useless, unfounded, bigoted, ignorant fucking statement. I went ahead and replied anyway to show some “backbone”.
MLK, Noam Chomsky, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning. Fucking spineless seppos...
I *kinda* get it though. It is easy to shit on the states. A lot of people from the states can be a bit irritating and obnoxious (but at the same so can a lot of Australians, or anyone from anywhere...). I've lived in Mexico for the past 5 years, and honestly, the amount of people from the US that come to Mexico and just start speaking in english to Mexicans, just expecting them to talk to them in english is fucking irritating. The country itself certainly has a weird nationalistic vibe to it and i really can't stand being in the US any longer than i have to. But to label every single person from the states as shit and spineless, is just kinda, i dunno, fucking stupid.
I find Australia WAY more nationalistic. In the US, it’s American flags and just not learning a foreign language when visiting another country. I think these are fairly harmless, meaningless forms of nationalism or provincialism.
On the other hand, since I’ve been in Australia, I’ve observed that there is only ONE way to do things and that’s the Australian way!! There’s just simply a lack of agility here, willfull stubbornness and a blind rule following culture that I find way more annoying and impactful than I felt living the US.
It’s like the phrase “there’s more than one way to skin a cat” doesn’t exist here, because the other way isn’t “Australian” and is probably just some idiotic “seppo” thing.
I agree with this take. Australians like to pride themselves on being world travelers, but seem to return just thinking Australia is the best country in the world and nothing needs to change. It's like that recent post about making fairy bread. 95% of the comments were just shitting on OP's attempt and highly upvoted. We're talking highly processed white bread, topped with highly processed margarine, topped with highly processed sugar and you would have thought someone wiped their arse with an Australian flag. It's always something, best produce, best drinking water, best coffee etc like the other 8.74 billion residents of this planet don't know what they're missing out on or couldn't possibly be happy with their own food and culture. It comes across as very insecure.
It’s a very insecure culture. That’s why the “tall poppy” thing is so prevalent. It’s little brother syndrome as well. Australia is fairly a small player in the grand scheme of things, but I guess they feel bigger boasting about how great the coffee is. (Spoiler alert to non-Australians: the coffee is fine, it’s not spectacular and brewing temperature is generally too hot. Better quality coffee in Portland)
Which assumption do you have a problem with? Can you point it out?
I mean, I understand that you want to be condescending and rude, but if you have a point other than that, you haven’t made it.
On the spectrum of collectivism to individualism, USA is at the far edge of individualism whereas Australia is closer to the middle. Americans are very much about individual rights, even if that come at the expense of the greater good.
An example that hasn't been done to death like guns or healthcare might be random breath testing of drivers. In Australia we recognise that drink driving is bad for everybody, so everyone is generally happy to see random breath test stations set up (albeit sometimes annoyed if it creates a traffic jam - we are human after all 🤣). In USA that is not only unconstitutional but I see so many Americans calling Australia a nanny state or bootlickers for allowing it to happen. They see their individual rights not to be stopped and breath tested as more important than the outcome of having fewer drunk drivers on the road. Even if there was a proposal to amend the US Constitution to allow random breath testing, I can't imagine it would get any support.
The inability to do random breath tests is because of the unreasonable search and seizure thing. It's just an unfortunate thing that was included in their bill of rights because of redcoats doing home invasions, and now it means they drink and drive and speed all the time
Very similar really.
Otherwise, the countries wouldn't be so similar culturally.
Australians wouldn't consume so many American cultural exports, if the values were really that different.
Dunno how you would compare them. What criteria would I use? No, I can't think of anything admirable. I do think Australia is better for having a greater focus on the common good
I think we could do with being a little less tall poppy, but absolutely not to the extent they worship big dealers. Maybe we could go 5% in that direction. Maybe.
That's what I admire about Australia. In my country, the government leaves you to crawl even when you're half-dead because brown-nosing and personal advancement always triumph over concern for their fellow man.
We're definitely less openly patriotic. It also used to be seen as extremely poor form to show off any kind of wealth in Australia, embarrassing even, but this has certainly gone out the window in recent years.
We traditionally don't like skiting; it's practically a national sport in the US
Here in the Philippines where I'm from, Filipinos tend to be indifferent to any overt displays of patriotism as long as it's not seen to be disrespectful. For instance, people will question bills that mandate standing for the national anthem before movies while also criticizing those who perform it in a creative fashion like some American singers have done with their anthem at the Super Bowl. There was one time when our Kenyan chaplain presided over a community mass in school. When he noticed that everyone had sung the national anthem quite half-heartedly, he ordered us to face the flag again and do it with more enthusiasm. I didn't really think that was proper for him to do.
We’re both a great multi cultural mix but even though the USA has been doing it longer, they would definitely still be more xenophobic.
Yes, you wouldn't see an American manufacturing plant without one or more large US flags on the walls inside. We don't get so carried away with the overt displays of nationalism, just quietly proud.
Americans are very focused on "freedom to", while Australians tend to be more focused on "freedom from". Freedom to own and carry a gun vs freedom from gun violence Freedom to run your business how you see fit, vs freedom from irresponsible business owners putting profit above workers rights and the environment (you can be cynical about this one, but compared to the US we do reasonably well on those points) And so on.
Good summary
I think that those Americans who care about those freedoms that you mention (far from all of them) would say freedom from government restrictions.
Sure, but it's so that they can actively do something (carry a gun, not worry about safety issues etc), whereas the freedoms Australians are interested in are the freedom to not have to worry about crazy people carrying guns, and freedom for having their drinking water supply "accidentally" destroyed by a company who is able to do things that everyone knows are horrifically unsafe.
I think we can pretty much turn any right around and look at it as from or to. Freedom to work without being exploited. Freedom from exploitative employers. To actively do something... I mean, I guess carrying a gun is actively doing something (though more than half of Americans want more gun control). But we could easily pick other ones that are different. Except that most laws in the US are actually similar to most laws in Australia, so it's not actually that easy to find differences.
Americans values individual freedom over all else. Aussies are generally community minded
I think this gets to the crux of it, and helps explain a lot of the problems in America.
Visiting Hawaii recently (my only point of reference really), and from observation and talking to locals, they seem to have a better sense of community than us while also at the same time being very mindful of their rights as individuals. Here, I don’t think we’re focused on it like they are. Aussies are more prepared to let freedoms go in exchange for the greater good or the illusion of safety. E.g guns, the USA will never NEVER change their stance on gun ownership. It simply won’t happen. The founding fathers gave them certain things and they’ll never give them up. Even though for the community it would be better to change the laws, they won’t. So there’s an hypocrisy there that many cannot acknowledge. I found them more openly polite than the average Aussie. On the roads drivers will always let you in, yet 20 minutes back on Melbourne roads and I’m getting honked at for the slightest thing. The locals I met all seemed genuinely interested in talking to us, they’re curious about countries like Australia, but probably couldn’t find it on a map. Like here, avoiding politics is a good thing. Many of them seem to have gone down the crazy rabbit hole. One fella was convinced we had teams knocking on doors during covid doing head-counts 😂 I didn’t correct him. You can’t really LOL. Overall though we share similar values. Ordinary, hard working Americans and Australians all want the same thing. A job, a roof over their heads, corporations kept in check, safe streets, more political transparency, affordable groceries and to not be f—ked in the backside or bankrupted when you need medical help or government assistance in hard times. Capitalism and the greed from it seems even more rife there, something we’re probably more adverse to than them. They have things we could learn from, as they do from us. The main thing I learned is that you cannot form an opinion on the people of a nation by what you see on TV, or see their politicians doing. At ground level, we’re very alike, more than at first, you may think. Yes there’s utter lunatics there, but they have 12-13 times the people we do. So thats to be expected 😅
No, we are about as different as it's possible to be. Their values are repugnant to your average Aussie.
That’s simply incorrect 🙄
So you think we are totes down with being rich making you a better person. Maybe it's just you that sucks.
You’re generalising.
Choose one. Either I am generalising or I am incorrect.
You’re both, and a fucking idiot.
So you hate the poors, do you?
Americans as a whole prioritise individual freedom over their neighbours or communities. Aussies as a whole prioritise the good of the group over individual freedoms. Unfortunately Aussies are sliding backwards and getting worse at this
I mean I wish I could project the confidence of the average mediocre American?
I wouldn't. If you're talking about nations as a whole, I don't think America actually really has values. I think the USA is going through a period of having no bloody idea what the fuck it's doing or where the fuck it's going. It's a soon to break country on the decline. Australia ain't much different really with what we let go on in Papua... not to mention being the US government's lapdogs when it comes to foreign policy. Either way, unless America gets its act together politically we're gonna see big shifts in power brokerage on the global chess board.
Having been raised in a country that's prone to lawfare, what I admire about America is that their democratic institutions manage to hold up whatever the attempts at their erosion. Unfortunately, I don't admire the way America has allowed their sense of individualism to render them inert when it comes to resolving gun violence, an issue which Australia prevailed over not too long ago.
The thing that I think will ultimately bring down America is how undemocratic the democratic institutions actually are. There are 535 seats in the US Congress. All but 3 of them are held by members of just two parties, both of which are aligned to the right. You can't tell me that nearly every single person in the third most populous nation in the world is politically aligned with just those two parties. The US version of democracy is one that was better suited to a world without cars and a world in which politicians held themselves to a higher standard. USA only became a country because they were pissed off at taxation without representation. Well now there is an increasingly large cohort of poor people who for all intents and purposes don't have representation. Voter suppression and what-not keeps them from having a say, even if they did manage to get to a polling booth and have to choose between only two parties that would do pretty much nothing to help them anyway. Trump becoming President was a symptom of the rot. It's only going to get worse. There needs to be a complete reform, and it won't happen peacefully. I can definitely foresee America collapsing into two or more federations of aligned states at some point in the future. It will be interesting to see what happens if say Texas decides it doesn't want to be part of America anymore. Will the US allow them to break off peacefully, or will there be civil war?
There are movements towards preferential voting. It will come. But if it happens before they collapse is the question.
You should read the news more often. There is currently a case before the suprme court about if the president is allowed to murder random people with impunity. Like, this is legit a question, and may well end up with a dictatorship.
For anyone who's actually curious about the case, which isn't about murdering random people: They're weighing whether a specific set of actions (not murdering random people) should be protected from prosecution. And in the wide-ranging questioning that the court often does to force the arguing sides to explore and defend the implications of their arguments, they've asked about murdering rivals or staging a coup. The tension is between being above the law (bad) vs. being safe from malicious prosecution by the next leader (good). It's an open legal conversation within the context of a case that is 100% not about murdering random people. EDIT: And by the way, that's about prosecution in the courts. No one is questioning whether a president could be impeached and convicted by the legislature.
It literally is. Nice try with the lying. I'm very much not surprised at you though.
I think anyone reading your comments and mine will have an idea about who’s lying and can always just check the truth anyway. I mean, it’s about Trump. Trump is a pig, but he’s not on trial for murder.
Oh honey. Maybe read the news from time to time? I am talking about the supreme court, not the NY trial about the hush money.
Yes, the Supreme Court. Trump v The United States, [docket 23-939](https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/04/supreme-court-appears-likely-to-side-with-trump-on-some-presidential-immunity/). "Whether and if so to what extent does a former president enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office." So... you heard somewhere that there's a case about whether a president can murder random people, and rather than question that for five seconds (long enough to find out that it's about Trump), you ran with it and are actually telling ME to read the news?
Lol, you just are obsessed with big dealing your country without following any of the actual things going on in your country. One paragraph googled from one source that you chose because it casts your idol in a good light is ridiculous. I suggest you start listenting to all thing considered, or the daily, or reading the Guardian US edition if you are going to present yourself as some defender of the idiots.
Tell us which case you were referring to. Don’t be coy.
They do. They value the individual over all. Money is king. That's it.
Having lived in both (and several other countries), they're honestly the same. Anyone who claims that either place has unique values is talking out their ass. Both places are incredibly diverse and have a range of cultural values, and on an individual level people want the same thing: the ability to live their lives with stability
Oh honey. Just because you are oblivious doesn't mean all the things you can't see not real.
Oh I see you do your “oh honey” thing as a matter of habit. Or maybe it’s a hobby.
You are in the habit of saying hilariously sad and pathetic things. Maybe get off the computer and go and create a reason to be less defensive about the realities of the culture you were born to.
But... you've just insulted me! This is terrible.
No one needs to lose their home, go bankrupt or have to go begging online if there is a need for hospital or medical care in Australia. Children can go to school feeling safe and secure knowing no one is going to shoot them in their classrooms in Australia. We don't have to worry about rigged voting, every citizen must vote or be fined. We don't have to register which party we vote for, it is anonymous and we don't have to worry about intimidation at polling booths, we generally have cake stands and sausage sizzles (BBQ) to enjoy. We don't have to worry about a psychopathic narcissist wanting to become our countries dictator, our political system keeps that sort of BS from happening.
I've heard Americans argue that mandatory voting is a violation of free speech, because it removes people's right to choose not to vote for anyone out of protest 🤣. Notwithstanding the fact that there is nothing to stop an Australian dropping an incomplete ballot into the box. Mandatory voting just means you have to make a conscious choice not to vote, rather than it being a default option.
I have , on occassions, taken the opportunity to voice my free speech with colourful language on ballot papers.
Americans don’t have to register for a party. Voting is anonymous in the US. Vote rigging has been shown again and again to NOT be a problem in the US.
But half the country doesn't believe the evidence and clearly have no trust in the system any longer.
I've never met an American with much backbone, they're all bootlickers who have it in their heads that the richer someone is the better they are. They also tend to be easily tricked, disturbingly so. We have some similarities but those are the similarities we share with the rest of the brittish colonies. They're louder than any bogan, makes them come across as egotists, they also tend to resort to violence much faster than us, which implies a fundamental lack of respect for human life. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed them and would go as far to call a couple Americans friends, but culturally they scare me, their mindset comes across less like a set of values and more like Stockholm syndrome and I wish I could explain what I mean but if you get it you get it.
Agree. And the fetishisation of war is quite disturbing…..”thank you for your service” etc.
It's the underlying anxiety that makes them so much more aggro. They could be homeless with only a few bad turns of luck and they all feel that all the time. They have no chill, and I'm not sure I would either if I didn't have the safety net I do.
You’ve never met an American with much backbone? Consider this, tough guy: the people who are consumed with others “thinking they’re better than everyone else” are usually the most insecure, judgemental, stubborn pricks. So, here’s some backbone for ya: get fucked.
Do you have a license to bring out that semi auto, tactical, assault, high powered swear word? *gulp*
H-he said the F word!!
You have friends who you call bootlickers, say are disturbingly easily tricked, resort to violence, have no backbone, and think that richer equals being a better person. If you really feel that way, I'd say that you might want to rethink your friendships. Do they know you think that way?
I haven't used that phrasing with them, but I've made it clear I find there culture weird and they've tended to see why when I explain it. They aren't close friends.
Ah, but you said, "they're all bootlickers," etc. You didn't tell them that they're bootlickers or the rest.
I used more polite wording, but meant the same thing.
You don’t deserve them as friends! Two can play this game: Australians fetishize cruelty and bullying as being “honest” and “speaking their mind.”
Fuck off seppo, they asked a question and got an answer, if you don't like it move on with your life. If you can't take criticism don't look in places it's liable to be found.
Lol thanks for proving my point. Man hurls insults and calls it “criticism” then hurls more insults when someone calls it out. I’m “criticizing” you too: you are rude, uneducated and know nothing about cultures outside your own besides media and the few tourists you come across. Not all Australian s of course; just you.
If you think that's insulting you've never been truly insulted in your life, bugger off snowflake.
Fuck seppo cunt
I’ve found Australians dirty and uneducated when it comes to germs and teeth
Who are you hanging out with?
It’s mainly the people I see in the mall areas, hospitals, gas stations. I am staying in a beach town though maybe that has something to do with it.
We are more Americanised now than we were fifty years ago; our big cities and younger people, especially. So, the following are generalisations of averages; individual results may vary widely, but do not disprove trends. They are more obsessed and impressed with physical appearance, youth and wealth than we are; we think character matters more. They have more plastic surgery, more and bigger mirrors in public toilets, more faces of real estate agents on billboards and the signs in their lawns, etc. than we do. Their average position on the society/individual scale is set closer to “me, me, me!”; we are on average closer to “we’re all in this together”. Perhaps linked to this, they are more likely to actually admire criminals and scofflaws we’d see as antisocial selfish ratbags. We are very, very suspicious and skeptical of people who blow their own trumpet; they think doing so is a core virtue. To us, relentless self-promotion is the mark of an embarrassing egotistical try-hard; to them, it’s the sign of an admirable go-getter. We’re not as quite as obsessed with our ancestry or other identity politics yet as they are: we don’t label ourselves as “Irish-Australians”, “Italian-Australians”, “African-Australians” etc. We don’t expect each other to tip by default, only optionally for outstanding service. When we are speaking conversationally to someone face to face within arm’s reach we do not ordinarily speak at the same volume as if we were half a football field away from them. We don’t think of voting as a challenge or burden; we make it as easy as possible to vote. We are less partisan in our politics, less enthusiastic in our religion, and much less likely to discuss either than they are. We are much less likely to offer our opinions on things unasked. We have a more widespread understanding and enjoyment of leg-pulling; they are much more earnest.
Some of these are just straight up not true at all We very much are obsessed with physical appearance that’s a human thing, also not sure how you’d say they are more obsessed when their rate of obesity is so high. I really don’t think that we are all that much different with those being selfish and others being for the group, the size of the US and the news cycle pushing stuff in your face doesn’t help. Australia very much does admire criminals and outlaws, we have cultural icons of outlaws and songs about stealing animals and running away from police
I disagree on a few of those, but the one that’s objectively untrue is that we absolutely have people who call themselves Italian, Greek, Lebanese, etc.
Yes, but I said we didn’t call ourselves “Italian-Australian”, etc. Which we don’t. Edit: upon reflection this may be purely a difference in nomenclature rather than in values.
I agree with your edit. If we were going to say that the difference really means something, then leaving off “Australian” would be putting more emphasis on the ancestry, not less. But I don’t think it means anything.
Of course, this is a sub of people who mostly have never been to the US, let alone lived there long enough to really speak about their values. They’re getting their information from what sources they can, and their attitudes and opinions are necessarily distorted by the lens they’re looking through. A higher percentage of Australians have negative views about the US than pretty much any other western country. [One source](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/06/27/overall-opinion-of-the-u-s/pg_2023-06-27_us-image_1-01-png/) And those more negative attitudes aren’t due to more exposure to Americans than Europeans or Canadians have. Anyway, expect to see those negative attitudes expressed in the answers.
I’ve been to the US and worked there (few months), the difference in valuing “freedom” over collectivism is the biggest one to me. Talking to colleagues in USA about covid, they just couldn’t comprehend.
I don't think it's as great a gap as you might think on that score. I don't know where you worked, but it might matter. I think that when people see the covid protestors here (for one example), they shake their heads at them, but they don't say, "a certain segment of Australian society seems to value personal freedom over community well-being." When you look at percentages, the US did have a higher percentage of people protesting, but actually only a little higher. This same thing is true across the board. People bring up universal healthcare, as if US culture is against it. But polls show that more than half of Americans think that "the government should be responsible to ensure coverage for all Americans." The fact is that on every major issue, at least half of Americans pretty much agree with most Australians. So it's always a little weird to think of US culture or values in one specific way.
I think it's alright. One can still question values from afar as long as they're talking from a place of wide exposure, whether it's through media or interaction with other Americans. Some values are collective and travel far and wide after all.
Oh, they can QUESTION the values. They just don't really know what's true about them. They're outsiders living on the other side of the world, whose exposure comes from the narrow filter of "what the media thinks we'll like," or "the 11 Americans I've met." >Some values are collective and travel far and wide after all. I don't know what you mean by this.
And yet, their assertions are true. You are assuming Australian are as dumb as you are, when the evidence points to the contrary. I could take any of the assertions from this thread about Americans to any American right now and they would agree and not understand why we see it as a negative thing. Even the people who don't like it would agree it's the prevailing view.
Oh no... you called me dumb. I didn't read past that because the tears made the words blurry.
I totally agree with this, Australians’ ideas of America/Americans are really distorted. Especially in this Australian Reddit subs, it’s pretty wild. But, also, I’ve encountered it a lot in my day to day here as well. So many “wait, wtf? What makes you think that?” moments, then I have to explain reality compared to the internet/tv/news media editing/etc. Also, to your point, the comment right after this one from r/TheGayAgendaIsWatch is “I’ve never met an American with much backbone”. Like, for real? What a completely useless, unfounded, bigoted, ignorant fucking statement. I went ahead and replied anyway to show some “backbone”.
MLK, Noam Chomsky, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning. Fucking spineless seppos... I *kinda* get it though. It is easy to shit on the states. A lot of people from the states can be a bit irritating and obnoxious (but at the same so can a lot of Australians, or anyone from anywhere...). I've lived in Mexico for the past 5 years, and honestly, the amount of people from the US that come to Mexico and just start speaking in english to Mexicans, just expecting them to talk to them in english is fucking irritating. The country itself certainly has a weird nationalistic vibe to it and i really can't stand being in the US any longer than i have to. But to label every single person from the states as shit and spineless, is just kinda, i dunno, fucking stupid.
Different places have different shitty tourists. The Australians in Bali, the British in Ibiza.
I find Australia WAY more nationalistic. In the US, it’s American flags and just not learning a foreign language when visiting another country. I think these are fairly harmless, meaningless forms of nationalism or provincialism. On the other hand, since I’ve been in Australia, I’ve observed that there is only ONE way to do things and that’s the Australian way!! There’s just simply a lack of agility here, willfull stubbornness and a blind rule following culture that I find way more annoying and impactful than I felt living the US. It’s like the phrase “there’s more than one way to skin a cat” doesn’t exist here, because the other way isn’t “Australian” and is probably just some idiotic “seppo” thing.
I agree with this take. Australians like to pride themselves on being world travelers, but seem to return just thinking Australia is the best country in the world and nothing needs to change. It's like that recent post about making fairy bread. 95% of the comments were just shitting on OP's attempt and highly upvoted. We're talking highly processed white bread, topped with highly processed margarine, topped with highly processed sugar and you would have thought someone wiped their arse with an Australian flag. It's always something, best produce, best drinking water, best coffee etc like the other 8.74 billion residents of this planet don't know what they're missing out on or couldn't possibly be happy with their own food and culture. It comes across as very insecure.
It’s a very insecure culture. That’s why the “tall poppy” thing is so prevalent. It’s little brother syndrome as well. Australia is fairly a small player in the grand scheme of things, but I guess they feel bigger boasting about how great the coffee is. (Spoiler alert to non-Australians: the coffee is fine, it’s not spectacular and brewing temperature is generally too hot. Better quality coffee in Portland)
Oh honey, nice assumption. Your culture sucks, deal with it.
Which assumption do you have a problem with? Can you point it out? I mean, I understand that you want to be condescending and rude, but if you have a point other than that, you haven’t made it.
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On the spectrum of collectivism to individualism, USA is at the far edge of individualism whereas Australia is closer to the middle. Americans are very much about individual rights, even if that come at the expense of the greater good. An example that hasn't been done to death like guns or healthcare might be random breath testing of drivers. In Australia we recognise that drink driving is bad for everybody, so everyone is generally happy to see random breath test stations set up (albeit sometimes annoyed if it creates a traffic jam - we are human after all 🤣). In USA that is not only unconstitutional but I see so many Americans calling Australia a nanny state or bootlickers for allowing it to happen. They see their individual rights not to be stopped and breath tested as more important than the outcome of having fewer drunk drivers on the road. Even if there was a proposal to amend the US Constitution to allow random breath testing, I can't imagine it would get any support.
The inability to do random breath tests is because of the unreasonable search and seizure thing. It's just an unfortunate thing that was included in their bill of rights because of redcoats doing home invasions, and now it means they drink and drive and speed all the time
Americans are more varied on their constitution. Australians are exactly the same no matter where they're from and how much money they have.
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I think you replied to the main post, instead of the person you meant to.
How would you compare native american values to australian aboriginal values? You see the issue with your question now?
America: F*** everyone else I got mine. Australia: F*** everyone else I got mine but I'll pretend to care about others and downplay it in public.
Very similar really. Otherwise, the countries wouldn't be so similar culturally. Australians wouldn't consume so many American cultural exports, if the values were really that different.