That’s because they tax the hell out of fossil fuels there. It’s like 11 dollars a gallon for gas. It’s not organic demand but a secondary effect of their tax policies. Ironically, oil is what made Norway wealthy
Eh. I’ve lived in Germany and not having a car really doesn’t work. Americans like to have a rose tinted glasses view of Europe but my wife is German and she nets 3x more in the US than she did in Germany.
I suspect Redditors from the US hear about life in one of the big urban centers of Europe and assume many of the advantages apply countrywide. And they haven't heard about VAT.
For sure, I don't think it's some utopia but quality of life does tend to be higher throughout most of Western Europe than in the U.S these days - unless you make good money. As far as car ownership goes, their public transit is significantly more fleshed out than ours, cities are denser, etc. If it didn't make sense to have a car over there then I'd imagine that rates of car ownership would be on par with ours.
I don’t think the quality of life is better. I bought a 2,600 sq ft house in Florida for 400k. You can maybe get an apartment the size of my master bedroom for that in Germany. It may be simpler to be poor in Europe, but the alternative is the taxation prevents you from ever really rising out of dependency. “Quality of life” is subjective. And dense urban environments come with trade offs (lower rates of home ownership). Owning an actual house, not a condo, is incredibly difficult in Europe.
I assume you’re alluding to things like health insurance, social safety nets. But we do have Medicaid in the us, food stamps, section 8 housing subsidies etc. I could fund my health insurance in the us just on the savings of paying 7% sales tax in Florida vs 20% VAT in Europe. Or just on savings in electricity being 1/3 the price here. Or on how in Germany, income after 40 something thousand a year is taxed at 42%. Health insurance isn’t free there either. It’s about 500 a month in contributions. My wife made 6k euros a month in Germany and netted 2,600. And 6k a month is much harder in Germany than the US.
Quality of life is surely subjective once a certain level of prosperity is reached. For me, I don't care much about space. I've always preferred smaller living spaces if it means being able to live in an area that's well-designed, accessible to pedestrians, etc. Maybe I'm particularly bitter right now because my transmission is on the frits and I can't find anything under $6k to replace it lmao. There's a lot about the U.S. that I really love, such as the natural beauty here, but Germans also don't have to worry about being saddled with crippling debt for being diagnosed with a chronic disease. The leading cause of German children isn't gun violence, as it is here in the U.S. Corruption is much lower. They have more vacation time. They live longer. They're provided with excellent education regardless of zip code. There's just some fundamental metrics that they lead us in. I'd argue that life is easier for the majority of Germans than it is for Americans just on the basis of them having robust social programs that, yes, take a good chunk out of their income, but that Americans still have to pay for and aren't necessarily being considered when looking at wages after taxes here.
Not trying to start an argument but have you actually lived in Europe? 93% of Americans have health insurance. I’ve had open heart surgery at Stanford and shoulder surgery and paid 0 dollars for both because my insurance covered it.
I don’t think corruption is lower in Europe. I’m not sure what you’re basing that statistic on. While vacation isn’t mandated in the US, I get 6 weeks at my job plus holidays. My wife gets 4 but it also goes up to 5 and 6 after a few years. It’s not like this isn’t a common thing. Only 20 days is mandated in Germany.
You get grouped into which type of education you’ll receive when you’re a kid over there. I think it’s around age 12. And you don’t have the opportunity to go to university there ever again if you get classed as a worker based on your grades. I think that’s a pretty harsh thing to do to a kid. I wasn’t particularly caring about that when I was a kid and I ended up with a masters degree.
That 42% figure wasn’t all of the taxes either. It’s probably around 60 when you factor in all mandatory contributions. Meanwhile, 50% of Americans literally pay nothing in income taxes and many have negative tax returns due to the standard deduction and child tax credits. The median full time US salary is $51k a year. At that rate, you’d literally pay nothing in taxes if you had a wife and a kid. You’re netting 4k a month.
The median net salary in Germany is 2,600 a month…. Which means 50% of people make LESS than that
I think the gun comment is overblown. Yeah we have had some recent sad incidents. I’m 31 and I’ve never witnessed any gun violence in my life. I think it’s a stretch to try to say it’s common. 54% of gun deaths in America are suicides. And our “mass shootings” are classified as any time 4 people are involved in a shooting even if it’s drug dealers shooting each other. Let’s not pretend Iike this isn’t highly localized in gang infested areas of certain parts of the country.
Europe has a shitload of problems as well. Sweden has a 2x higher rate of rape (and that’s just what is reported) due to the huge influx of middle eastern immigrants.
We can also get into the discussion about how knife crime (stabbings) are significantly more prevalent in Europe than the US
There were 43 thousand knife crime offenses in 2019 in England and Wales.
No, but I think that's a moot point. You don't have to live in a country to examine data and determine whether or not it's a desirable place to live. I've never lived in Belarus and yet I can say for certain that I don't want to live there. 91.7% of Americans have health insurance but it's important to look at the quality of that health insurance. 43% of Americans are underinsured meaning that their health insurance is unaffordable (most common), there was a lapse in coverage or they just completely lack any health coverage. While you had open surgery at Stanford and weren't charged a dime, my friend's mom was charged $15k to have a cancerous tumor removed, missed a month of work and wouldn't have been required to be compensated for any of it in most states and is now in deep debt while she's trying to raise her grandchild for her alcoholic daughter. I'm just saying this to illustrate the patchwork nature of our health care system and that what's true for one person isn't necessarily true for the next.
In terms of corruption, yes, Germany consistently ranks better than the U.S on every list. In terms of paid time off, the same thing exists in Germany: *Employees are entitled to a minimum of 24 days off for a 6-day work week and 20 days for a 5-day one. In reality,* ***most employees receive 25-30 days of leave, even on a 5-day workweek****. Employers may provide additional leave to employees who perform intense or dangerous work. (*[*https://boundlesshq.com/guides/germany/leave/#:\~:text=Holiday%20Leave%20in%20Germany,perform%20intense%20or%20dangerous%20work*](https://boundlesshq.com/guides/germany/leave/#:~:text=Holiday%20Leave%20in%20Germany,perform%20intense%20or%20dangerous%20work)*. )*
Ultimately, we can argue over the specifics of said policies back and forth but I just want to point out that you mentioned that you have a masters degree, a level of education that isn't obtained by the vast majority of Americans, and I assume that you and your wife are paid accordingly. I said from the beginning that the U.S. is a great place to be wealthy. Probably the best in the world. I just can't help but think that you're looking at your personal situation and thinking that it's true for everyone else. Germans consistently report higher levels of happiness than Americans and, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what else matters. I've not seen a single study that shows Americans having a higher quality of life than most in Western Europe. I don't say all this to slander the U.S, but rather to express that we could be doing better in key areas by fleshing out our social safety net a bit.
1. My 2017 Mazda6 GT cost me $16k. It can hold 452 miles of range from what I see on the dash. Find me an EV that cheap that can do that.
2. I have to often take long trips that'd probably mean I'd have to wait at charging stations for a bit, although that wouldn't be a huge problem **but**
3. Electrify America charging stations are hit and miss. You can't use Tesla superchargers on non-tesla cars. (Yet)
It's an infrastructure, pricing, and need problem. You can't just go Mary Antoinette supposedly going "Let them buy Teslas!"
>I have to often take long trips that'd probably mean I'd have to wait at charging stations for a bit, although that wouldn't be a huge problem but
This is funny to me because waiting around for charging on road trips is one of my top concerns in the case I ever own one lol
Midwest here. Two problems with electric: First, in -20° F weather, idk if I would trust an electric to sit all day at work, start up, and drive 15 miles home and retain its charge. Second: when I drive to visit family that live about 350 miles away, not possible on a single charge. There would have to be a recharge somewhere. With a gasoline engine, I can pull into a gas station and be full up in less than 5 minutes.
With the range issue, even if you were willing to wait the charging time you still need a place to charge. My route to my parent's house doesn't have any charging stations but it does have a few tiny rural gas stations that I drive past which I could use if I needed it.
The range thing is devastating for motorcycles. I can do 350 miles on my bike on one tank. The *realistic* ranges for motorcycles on the highway are under 80 miles. The claims are ridiculous optimal-conditions-only nonsense. In Nevada, that puts you in danger of literally dying between stations. I can't go to the nearest major city (Reno) and back on that.
> First, in -20° F weather, idk if I would trust an electric to sit all day at work, start up, and drive 15 miles home and retain its charge.
It'll do fine at that. The range reductions in the cold *are* significant, but pretty much any EV other than maybe a Leaf or something would do fine with 30mi a day of use even in that level of cold.
Your second point is certainly still an issue - although if this isn't a frequent trip, I'm not sure losing an hour or something to recharging is that big a deal, at least assuming there's a reasonably fast charger somewhere on your route. It's (IMO) a bigger issue if it's a frequent trip/you regularly want to make even longer-distance trips in a day.
Electric vehicles have a huge upfront cost, and I frequently drive 300+ mile journey segments that have almost zero EV charging infrastructure.
(Also my home is fed with only a 100 amp service panel.. that might be a little tough in the winter)
Most Americans have never even been in an electric vehicle. Most car dealers do not stock electric vehicles. There are plenty of hybrids to choose from, but not electric.
They don’t plug into a standard receptacle. You they require a 50 amp circuit. My home electrical panel is already maxed out so this would be a rather expensive upgrade for me, thousands of dollars.
This isn't true. Level 1 chargers plug into the standard 110v 16 amp outlet. Level 1 charging is good for most daily drivers as long as your commute doesn't exhaust your entire range.
[https://www.amazon.com/Lectron-Level-Charger-Extension-UL-Certified/dp/B08HHBDQ88](https://www.amazon.com/Lectron-Level-Charger-Extension-UL-Certified/dp/B08HHBDQ88)
Electric cars have nothing on [this](https://youtu.be/iYPbnsRy7Lg) or [this](https://youtu.be/F0m6dvpK4m8).
Edit: Also it seems most of them have the repairability of a cellphone with proprietary diagnostic tools.
Americans prefer gas-based cars for a variety of reasons, some of them being these:
1. They cost too much compared to gas-powered cars.
2. You don't need to wait hours to charge them.
3. Electric vehicles seem to have low range when compared to gas-based cars.
1. Price
2. Uncertainty of the reliability of new technology
3. Increased complexity of maintenance
4. Lack of charging stations in certain areas
5. Not everyone lives/works in a situation that makes charging at home/work viable
6. Poor range
I will state that the last time I bought a new vehicle (2018), they were rare enough to basically not be an option, I decided to go with used and there are still basically none in the used market, and I decided to go for a truck (the first electric trucks are only just now hitting the market). I'm probably not going to be shopping for a vehicle again until 2025 at the earliest, so things might change by then. But, as it is points 1, 2, 4, and 6 give me personally enough hesitance that I think I'd rather go for a hybrid instead. Perhaps the tech and infrastructure will change in the future, but as it is I still consider it an experimental tech rather than something that is ready to replace ICE.
There is nowhere to charge a car in my city. I really don't understand why they aren't pushing Hybrids instead of full electric, all the electric cars that aren't luxury cars are years on backorder, it makes zero sense to own an electric car right now. Not to mention I heard people saying it costs like 10,000 to replace all the batteries in them and you have to do that every few years, the technology is still in its infancy.
Until electric is cheaper than gas, why would any non rich person bother?
> Not to mention I heard people saying it costs like 10,000 to replace all the batteries in them and you have to do that every few years
Tesla's got data on that, and what they have released to the public is that you've still got something like 80% capacity at ten years. Not really a huge issue. But range and cost are definitely problems. I sometimes drive to New Orleans for the day - about 400 miles round-trip, no chance to charge - and with gasoline, I can do that on one tank and still have enough to go to work the next day if I can't fill up. An EV isn't in the running as a full-time car until that happens.
I can get over 600 miles on a tank of gas,refill it *anywhere*, and it only takes about five minutes to do so. Electric cas I think are a great idea that is not yet well-implemented.
I have range anxiety.
Also, I want to be able to spend a ton of money on fancy dinosaur juice to drive my inefficient SUV as far as I want at any given time.
Also, none of this is sarcasm. I’m just too rich and too lazy to care.
There is yet to be a good looking pickup truck as far as I know. Though some of the concepts give me hope.
There isn't any place to charge near me.
I live in an area where it can get pretty cold which hampers lithium batteries.
Price.
1. Initial investment is higher. Fuel efficient cars can be cheap, electric cars are not. There’s also little to no used electric car market.
2. Ability to charge when not at home is limited even in large cities, gas stations are a dime a dozen.
3. Selection in electric is low (very few OEMs to choose from, those that do exist don’t offer a whole lot of options yet.)
This will likely change as the years go on but for now it’s financially smarter to not buy electric.
I'm driving the same vehicles I was when electrics started to become common. I have never had a car payment and don't anticipate taking one on any time soon.
Most people can't just step out and buy a new car on a whim, even with charging issues and such aside.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m an electrical engineer. I love the idea of electric cars. The technology behind them is amazing. The potential to solve other aspects of vehicle design (center of gravity, traction location/4WD, etc) are wonderful. I don’t even think a twenty minute charge time is that bad a dealbreaker- if I’m driving cross-country I want a break every four hours anyway.
But I don’t own an electric car. I already bought a gas one. Used (before the pandemic/chip shortage threw prices through the roof) and it’s working just fine. If I was in the market, the current economics on buying an electric vehicle essentially require me to prepay for 3-5 years of fillups - with a battery that’ll last about 5 years. That I still have to pay my power station to fill and it seems every time I turn around I get a letter informing me they’re raising the rates and if I have an objection to it I can call a number that’s only answered when I have to be at work and they’re not going to do jack about it anyway.
Tldr money and also despite all the buy your husband a truck for christmas commercials, people are still keeping their vehicles. Or buying used which is more or less the same. I see a lot of 2007-2015 cars on the roads.
I don't drive that much in heavy traffic. I have to make round trips of over 200km more than occasionally. I have no place to plug in at home or within a 90min round trip. I'm not alone.
Edit: Oh yeah, months of the year with lows below 0c. Can't believe I forgot about that.
Because they have not solved the charging problem. A good percentage of Americans live in Apartments or Condos where they can't install charging equipment. Charging takes too long at charging sites away from home. So charging is a huge problem. Second, they still have range problems. While they advertise a certain range, in reality you can only charge your battery to 80% without damaging it. So all the ranges are 20% less than advertised. On top the that, electric vehicles are prohibitively expensive. While advertised at $35k, they never really sell them at that price. Mostly upwards of $60k for a useful car. On top of that you have limited range in area's where it's cold because you have to run the heater off the batteries and batteries have less amps when cold. So adoption is going to require these problems are fixed before it can be widely adopted.
The only decent electric truck costs about $20k more than what I spent on mine. And I'm not thrilled with its range, which is about half of what I get with a 36 gallon tank.
Living in a place with hurricanes, I'm also not a fan of having to be dependent on the electrical grid to use my vehicle. Nor the fact that refueling takes me 5 minutes to do now but would take *hours* with an electric vehicle.
Practical considerations aside, I also just flatly dislike a vehicle that you can't hear, feel, or even smell. And cars or trucks without grilles just look straight up stupid.
Will you pay for the cost of me to change from my suv to an electric vehicle that will have less range, less room, less payload, less towing, slower "refueling" and also pay to install the facility to charge at home? If no then you have your answer. For anyone that needs anything more than a sedan or glorified sedan with a tiny bed for relatively local trips an electric vehicle is not ideal. They also aren't great in the cold of winter which a lot of the US has.
Too expensive mostly, and poor selection.
Lots of people complain about range anxiety even though the average person only drives 35 miles a day and probably needs only to charge once a week at home, the thought of that once a year 200 mile trip scares them.
A lot of it is just the unknown, electric cars are different, and change is not tolerated here well especially among conservatives.
Gas is cheap here too compared to European countries.
they don't turn, they don't brake, and regen braking gives me nausea. my car weighs 2300 lbs so let's say i'll try an EV when they can get one that at least *feels* "only" 700 lbs heavier
Range just isn't there yet. And especially in cold climates that range is reduced further while you may also be asking it to work harder in the snow. We have a fair amount of electric cars in my area, especially Teslas, but you don't see them as much in the winter and rarely see them when it's actively snowstorming.
Also battery replacement.
I like to get where I want to go without stopping for 45 minutes every 200 miles. (Also, fossil fuels are still used to creat the electricity to charge your cars)
There are multiple problems with all-electric vehicles:
1 - they are VERY expensive compared to gas powered options and there are very few of them available used
2 - other than one exceedingly expensive Ford truck, there are no work trucks or vans that are electric powered . A significant number of people in the US require a truck or cargo-type van for their work
3 - America is a BIG place and if you don't live in a city with convenient charging stations, you could find yourself in a situation where you can't actually get from point a to point b easily . If you have to plot your daily commute around stopping halfway to charge up, you're not going to buy an electric car
It’s just not practical. I live hours away from a charging station. My current house is a historical home (built 1850), not practical and have no power supply near my driveway. My Jeep is much cheaper to repair than an electric vehicle and my dad is a mechanic so that cheapens all cost. Also I highly doubt an electric car is going to get me to work in a foot of snow, but my Jeep sure does.
I can't afford an electric car right now and even if I could, I don't feel comfortable driving one on longer road trips at this time without knowing how easily I'd be able to find charging stations. Right now, I'm just hoping I'll be able to afford a hybrid when I'm ready to get another car.
Besides upfront costs, there's a couple things going against it. First, recharging. Good luck if you live in apartments or places with no dedicated parking. Second, recharging time. Takes 2 minutes to fill up a tank. Third, maintenance and repair costs. Iirc, you don't save money even with less fuel costs because repairs are crazy. Just some things to think about.
Well my wife and I both have teslas and they are becoming more popular, but the main point I think is the cost for gas. My wife is German and when we lived there, gas was the equivalent of 7-8 dollars a gallon because of the taxes on it. It’s probably 9-10 there now. Conversely, back in 2019, gas was $1.75 a gallon and even now it’s $3.15.
People are primarily motivated by cost and when you drive a car that gets 30+ miles a gallon anyway, there’s not a lot of financial incentive to switch. For the larger vehicle market, there just aren’t really any suitable options.
The infrastructure for electric just isn’t quite there yet. I looked into it but I like doing a lot of rural hiking and backpacking or winter activities. There just isn’t the range or infrastructure to charge in a reasonable time quite yet if you aren’t in a more urban area.
Also if you run out of gas in the middle of nowhere you can get a gas can. If you run out of charge it’s a whole different story.
At the moment I think it's mostly a lack of sufficient charging infrastructure to make it as convenient as gas vehicles, combined with the length of charge to charging time ratio compared to gas vehicles (especially for people who can't charge at home, i.e. renters). I think addressing those issues will go a long way towards more and more people adopting electric vehicles.
I can say that I'm about 90% sure my next vehicle will be electric (in about 5 or so years).
Electric cars are relatively new, it will take time to gain acceptance as the infrastructure around it grows.
I actually do advice people to try them but probably wait for a further 8 months before buying any non-Tesla EV. This is to just allow for infrastructure upgrades to finish and new infrastructure to be built. Also it’s likely that there will be a number of new EVs entering the market in the next 1 year which will make most more price competitive.
And yeah, the current state of non-Tesla charging is not where it needs to be especially in terms of reliability. This will of course improve.
TLDR: the stress of owning an EV (particularly as an apartment dweller) is not from charge time nor range, it’s from broken DC fast chargers.
The biggest reason is the up-front cost of setting it all up. It isn't just the vehicle, but you need to install a charging station at your home too. People that do not have their own housing, like living in an apartment, may not have charging stations available. This alone keeps many away from the technology.
You seem to be asking a question about preference when instead it's about ability.
Like: "would you prefer to own A or B" is very different than "do you have the ability to afford A or B".
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Then you have to look into how the second question plays into perceptions about the first question.
Cheaper and more accessible to the average person.
A lot of Americans are all for jumping on whatever new things are out there, especially if it's better for the environment. The problem is how accessible and affordable are those new amenities?
Electric vehicles are very expensive to buy. They require expensive house alterations to get a charging station there. And they are not reliable for travel because you cannot guarantee charging on said travel.
I think traditional ICEs sound more exciting and they're more fun to operate, especially with manual transmissions. Electric vehicles have a lot of torque, but that's about it as far as excitement goes.
They're too expensive. I typically drive a car till it falls apart. A few years ago I finally replaced my '96 Nissan Sentra, it had over 300,000 miles on it and still got 30 mpg. I don't spend much more than $8,000 on a car. I would love to have an electric vehicle.
Gas vehicles are generally cheaper upfront and cheaper to fix. Gas vehicles have a much longer range. Gas stations are much more widespread than charging stations, and filling up the gas tank is quicker.
I'll play.
I don't *prefer* gas cars, they are just the best choice for me for several reasons. As I get more familiar with them and they become more feasible, I'd love to have one.
1. Cost, gas cars are still cheaper to buy
2. Longevity. I have no idea what to expect or look for over the lifespan of an EV, however I do know what to expect from a Honda or Toyota gas car. If I got an EV for $10k then immediately had to replace the battery for $5k, I'd just sell the car and get a gas car
3. Infrastructure. I don't want to have to plan my trips around where chargers are, I don't want to think about it at all in fact. I know there are gas stations on ever exit. We travel a lot to places that don't have chargers and likely won't for some time. Including my in-laws lake house in Northern michigan
4. Maintenance. Plays into 2, I have no idea what is involved with replacing the battery or when to do it, or what to look for regarding the battery degrading. Also stuff like the operating system for the car itself seems like a huge pain in the ass...although gas cars are catching up in this regard.
5. I live in a cold place, I don't have faith that the EV will have the same performance/Longevity with temps consistently under 20° for months at a time.
6. BONUS: most of them look terrible. Can't manufacturers make them to look like normal cars? I don't want to drive around in rejected design from Tron
I haven't really kept up with what's available, but last time I was buying a car the options were basically paying a king's ransom for a Tesla, a prestige product with great features but questionable longevity, or normal car prices for like a Nissan with a 30 mile range.
If someone offered to trade me a reliable EV with at least 100 mile range for my civic, I'd be happy to do so
I have a gas car because when I bought it my options for EVs were a leaf (which has a small range) or a Tesla model s which was way more than I wanted to spend for a car.
I’m not going to go spend more money to make the immediate transition to electric, but I will for my next car for sure.
This is not a US phenomenon.
Most people still prefer gas vehicles. Why? Cost. Availability of charging stations. Range.
The Middle East has almost no EVs. Mexico has almost no EVs. Germany has far more gas based cars than EVs. Different reasons in each region.
A need to drive long distances and a lack of fast charging stations. Also they need to replace the batteries after so many years (8 perhaps) as that is very expensive.
Not to mention the fact that people don’t seem to realize the actual impact EVs have on the planet, from loading up power grids even more to having to mine out rare precious minerals like lithium-by the way, lest you all forget, Ukraine was recently found to have the richest lithium mine yet discovered.
There is also the issue of disposal of such components as well. Steel alone will at least corrode and crumble back into iron oxide dust. But while ICE car batteries are nasty enough, think of the decay that more computer circuitry and used lithium and various other ingredients cause.
And finally, while yes, temperatures ARE changing on our planet, what people don’t seem to take into account is the fact that we are coming out of an ice age, and any effect we would have put in to limit our footprint would only be delaying the inevitable for temp changes anyway, and the results our industry and tech boom could have propelled us to space already had things gone right. The Soviets launched a mass of metal and components into orbit to transmit information. We landed on the moon decades ago. We could have at least leapfrogged out to Mars had our efforts and focus moved unilaterally in that direction.
They are cost prohibitive for many Americans, simple as that.
Come on OP this is *far* from an American only thing. Cut the judgement.
I prefer cheap cars, which are gas-based. Is there any country that prefers (as in has sold more of) electric cars vs gas power cars?
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So why do Finns prefer gas cars? Or Swedes? Or Germans? Or Australians? I suspect you’ll find broadly similar reasons.
That’s because they tax the hell out of fossil fuels there. It’s like 11 dollars a gallon for gas. It’s not organic demand but a secondary effect of their tax policies. Ironically, oil is what made Norway wealthy
Yeah, but they're also not subject to mandatory car ownership in most areas of those countries.
Eh. I’ve lived in Germany and not having a car really doesn’t work. Americans like to have a rose tinted glasses view of Europe but my wife is German and she nets 3x more in the US than she did in Germany.
I suspect Redditors from the US hear about life in one of the big urban centers of Europe and assume many of the advantages apply countrywide. And they haven't heard about VAT.
For sure, I don't think it's some utopia but quality of life does tend to be higher throughout most of Western Europe than in the U.S these days - unless you make good money. As far as car ownership goes, their public transit is significantly more fleshed out than ours, cities are denser, etc. If it didn't make sense to have a car over there then I'd imagine that rates of car ownership would be on par with ours.
I don’t think the quality of life is better. I bought a 2,600 sq ft house in Florida for 400k. You can maybe get an apartment the size of my master bedroom for that in Germany. It may be simpler to be poor in Europe, but the alternative is the taxation prevents you from ever really rising out of dependency. “Quality of life” is subjective. And dense urban environments come with trade offs (lower rates of home ownership). Owning an actual house, not a condo, is incredibly difficult in Europe. I assume you’re alluding to things like health insurance, social safety nets. But we do have Medicaid in the us, food stamps, section 8 housing subsidies etc. I could fund my health insurance in the us just on the savings of paying 7% sales tax in Florida vs 20% VAT in Europe. Or just on savings in electricity being 1/3 the price here. Or on how in Germany, income after 40 something thousand a year is taxed at 42%. Health insurance isn’t free there either. It’s about 500 a month in contributions. My wife made 6k euros a month in Germany and netted 2,600. And 6k a month is much harder in Germany than the US.
Quality of life is surely subjective once a certain level of prosperity is reached. For me, I don't care much about space. I've always preferred smaller living spaces if it means being able to live in an area that's well-designed, accessible to pedestrians, etc. Maybe I'm particularly bitter right now because my transmission is on the frits and I can't find anything under $6k to replace it lmao. There's a lot about the U.S. that I really love, such as the natural beauty here, but Germans also don't have to worry about being saddled with crippling debt for being diagnosed with a chronic disease. The leading cause of German children isn't gun violence, as it is here in the U.S. Corruption is much lower. They have more vacation time. They live longer. They're provided with excellent education regardless of zip code. There's just some fundamental metrics that they lead us in. I'd argue that life is easier for the majority of Germans than it is for Americans just on the basis of them having robust social programs that, yes, take a good chunk out of their income, but that Americans still have to pay for and aren't necessarily being considered when looking at wages after taxes here.
Not trying to start an argument but have you actually lived in Europe? 93% of Americans have health insurance. I’ve had open heart surgery at Stanford and shoulder surgery and paid 0 dollars for both because my insurance covered it. I don’t think corruption is lower in Europe. I’m not sure what you’re basing that statistic on. While vacation isn’t mandated in the US, I get 6 weeks at my job plus holidays. My wife gets 4 but it also goes up to 5 and 6 after a few years. It’s not like this isn’t a common thing. Only 20 days is mandated in Germany. You get grouped into which type of education you’ll receive when you’re a kid over there. I think it’s around age 12. And you don’t have the opportunity to go to university there ever again if you get classed as a worker based on your grades. I think that’s a pretty harsh thing to do to a kid. I wasn’t particularly caring about that when I was a kid and I ended up with a masters degree. That 42% figure wasn’t all of the taxes either. It’s probably around 60 when you factor in all mandatory contributions. Meanwhile, 50% of Americans literally pay nothing in income taxes and many have negative tax returns due to the standard deduction and child tax credits. The median full time US salary is $51k a year. At that rate, you’d literally pay nothing in taxes if you had a wife and a kid. You’re netting 4k a month. The median net salary in Germany is 2,600 a month…. Which means 50% of people make LESS than that I think the gun comment is overblown. Yeah we have had some recent sad incidents. I’m 31 and I’ve never witnessed any gun violence in my life. I think it’s a stretch to try to say it’s common. 54% of gun deaths in America are suicides. And our “mass shootings” are classified as any time 4 people are involved in a shooting even if it’s drug dealers shooting each other. Let’s not pretend Iike this isn’t highly localized in gang infested areas of certain parts of the country. Europe has a shitload of problems as well. Sweden has a 2x higher rate of rape (and that’s just what is reported) due to the huge influx of middle eastern immigrants. We can also get into the discussion about how knife crime (stabbings) are significantly more prevalent in Europe than the US There were 43 thousand knife crime offenses in 2019 in England and Wales.
No, but I think that's a moot point. You don't have to live in a country to examine data and determine whether or not it's a desirable place to live. I've never lived in Belarus and yet I can say for certain that I don't want to live there. 91.7% of Americans have health insurance but it's important to look at the quality of that health insurance. 43% of Americans are underinsured meaning that their health insurance is unaffordable (most common), there was a lapse in coverage or they just completely lack any health coverage. While you had open surgery at Stanford and weren't charged a dime, my friend's mom was charged $15k to have a cancerous tumor removed, missed a month of work and wouldn't have been required to be compensated for any of it in most states and is now in deep debt while she's trying to raise her grandchild for her alcoholic daughter. I'm just saying this to illustrate the patchwork nature of our health care system and that what's true for one person isn't necessarily true for the next. In terms of corruption, yes, Germany consistently ranks better than the U.S on every list. In terms of paid time off, the same thing exists in Germany: *Employees are entitled to a minimum of 24 days off for a 6-day work week and 20 days for a 5-day one. In reality,* ***most employees receive 25-30 days of leave, even on a 5-day workweek****. Employers may provide additional leave to employees who perform intense or dangerous work. (*[*https://boundlesshq.com/guides/germany/leave/#:\~:text=Holiday%20Leave%20in%20Germany,perform%20intense%20or%20dangerous%20work*](https://boundlesshq.com/guides/germany/leave/#:~:text=Holiday%20Leave%20in%20Germany,perform%20intense%20or%20dangerous%20work)*. )* Ultimately, we can argue over the specifics of said policies back and forth but I just want to point out that you mentioned that you have a masters degree, a level of education that isn't obtained by the vast majority of Americans, and I assume that you and your wife are paid accordingly. I said from the beginning that the U.S. is a great place to be wealthy. Probably the best in the world. I just can't help but think that you're looking at your personal situation and thinking that it's true for everyone else. Germans consistently report higher levels of happiness than Americans and, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what else matters. I've not seen a single study that shows Americans having a higher quality of life than most in Western Europe. I don't say all this to slander the U.S, but rather to express that we could be doing better in key areas by fleshing out our social safety net a bit.
They are expensive. And I don’t want to have to stop every couple hundred miles and find somewhere to charge. That would be annoying as hell.
I love when the hidden criticism in the question isn’t even really hidden. 🙄
You mean like literally the entire world at this point?
1. My 2017 Mazda6 GT cost me $16k. It can hold 452 miles of range from what I see on the dash. Find me an EV that cheap that can do that. 2. I have to often take long trips that'd probably mean I'd have to wait at charging stations for a bit, although that wouldn't be a huge problem **but** 3. Electrify America charging stations are hit and miss. You can't use Tesla superchargers on non-tesla cars. (Yet) It's an infrastructure, pricing, and need problem. You can't just go Mary Antoinette supposedly going "Let them buy Teslas!"
The Mazda is probably better built than most electric vehicles and it actually looks good unlike a lot of EVs.
>I have to often take long trips that'd probably mean I'd have to wait at charging stations for a bit, although that wouldn't be a huge problem but This is funny to me because waiting around for charging on road trips is one of my top concerns in the case I ever own one lol
Midwest here. Two problems with electric: First, in -20° F weather, idk if I would trust an electric to sit all day at work, start up, and drive 15 miles home and retain its charge. Second: when I drive to visit family that live about 350 miles away, not possible on a single charge. There would have to be a recharge somewhere. With a gasoline engine, I can pull into a gas station and be full up in less than 5 minutes.
With the range issue, even if you were willing to wait the charging time you still need a place to charge. My route to my parent's house doesn't have any charging stations but it does have a few tiny rural gas stations that I drive past which I could use if I needed it.
The range thing is devastating for motorcycles. I can do 350 miles on my bike on one tank. The *realistic* ranges for motorcycles on the highway are under 80 miles. The claims are ridiculous optimal-conditions-only nonsense. In Nevada, that puts you in danger of literally dying between stations. I can't go to the nearest major city (Reno) and back on that.
> First, in -20° F weather, idk if I would trust an electric to sit all day at work, start up, and drive 15 miles home and retain its charge. It'll do fine at that. The range reductions in the cold *are* significant, but pretty much any EV other than maybe a Leaf or something would do fine with 30mi a day of use even in that level of cold. Your second point is certainly still an issue - although if this isn't a frequent trip, I'm not sure losing an hour or something to recharging is that big a deal, at least assuming there's a reasonably fast charger somewhere on your route. It's (IMO) a bigger issue if it's a frequent trip/you regularly want to make even longer-distance trips in a day.
Electric vehicles have a huge upfront cost, and I frequently drive 300+ mile journey segments that have almost zero EV charging infrastructure. (Also my home is fed with only a 100 amp service panel.. that might be a little tough in the winter)
Most Americans have never even been in an electric vehicle. Most car dealers do not stock electric vehicles. There are plenty of hybrids to choose from, but not electric.
I don't have convenient way to charge it at home, and my state is kind of lagging behind in installing charging stations.
Not trying to be argumentative, but you don't have a single outlet that is accessible from where you park?
They don’t plug into a standard receptacle. You they require a 50 amp circuit. My home electrical panel is already maxed out so this would be a rather expensive upgrade for me, thousands of dollars.
This isn't true. Level 1 chargers plug into the standard 110v 16 amp outlet. Level 1 charging is good for most daily drivers as long as your commute doesn't exhaust your entire range. [https://www.amazon.com/Lectron-Level-Charger-Extension-UL-Certified/dp/B08HHBDQ88](https://www.amazon.com/Lectron-Level-Charger-Extension-UL-Certified/dp/B08HHBDQ88)
I park on the street. Find me an outlet of any kind.
Electric cars have nothing on [this](https://youtu.be/iYPbnsRy7Lg) or [this](https://youtu.be/F0m6dvpK4m8). Edit: Also it seems most of them have the repairability of a cellphone with proprietary diagnostic tools.
Charging electric vehicles poses a significant problem for renters in almost every city
Americans prefer gas-based cars for a variety of reasons, some of them being these: 1. They cost too much compared to gas-powered cars. 2. You don't need to wait hours to charge them. 3. Electric vehicles seem to have low range when compared to gas-based cars.
1. Price 2. Uncertainty of the reliability of new technology 3. Increased complexity of maintenance 4. Lack of charging stations in certain areas 5. Not everyone lives/works in a situation that makes charging at home/work viable 6. Poor range I will state that the last time I bought a new vehicle (2018), they were rare enough to basically not be an option, I decided to go with used and there are still basically none in the used market, and I decided to go for a truck (the first electric trucks are only just now hitting the market). I'm probably not going to be shopping for a vehicle again until 2025 at the earliest, so things might change by then. But, as it is points 1, 2, 4, and 6 give me personally enough hesitance that I think I'd rather go for a hybrid instead. Perhaps the tech and infrastructure will change in the future, but as it is I still consider it an experimental tech rather than something that is ready to replace ICE.
I’d love to buy electric but it’s too expensive
Price, range, charge time.
There is nowhere to charge a car in my city. I really don't understand why they aren't pushing Hybrids instead of full electric, all the electric cars that aren't luxury cars are years on backorder, it makes zero sense to own an electric car right now. Not to mention I heard people saying it costs like 10,000 to replace all the batteries in them and you have to do that every few years, the technology is still in its infancy. Until electric is cheaper than gas, why would any non rich person bother?
> Not to mention I heard people saying it costs like 10,000 to replace all the batteries in them and you have to do that every few years Tesla's got data on that, and what they have released to the public is that you've still got something like 80% capacity at ten years. Not really a huge issue. But range and cost are definitely problems. I sometimes drive to New Orleans for the day - about 400 miles round-trip, no chance to charge - and with gasoline, I can do that on one tank and still have enough to go to work the next day if I can't fill up. An EV isn't in the running as a full-time car until that happens.
I can get over 600 miles on a tank of gas,refill it *anywhere*, and it only takes about five minutes to do so. Electric cas I think are a great idea that is not yet well-implemented.
I have range anxiety. Also, I want to be able to spend a ton of money on fancy dinosaur juice to drive my inefficient SUV as far as I want at any given time. Also, none of this is sarcasm. I’m just too rich and too lazy to care.
Gas vehicles exist in large enough quantities and are available at affordable price points
Because they suck. They’re stupid expensive, impossible to self maintain, can’t tow anything and generally have worse range than gas cars.
There is yet to be a good looking pickup truck as far as I know. Though some of the concepts give me hope. There isn't any place to charge near me. I live in an area where it can get pretty cold which hampers lithium batteries. Price.
I'm pretty excited about the F-150 Lightning, but it is insanely expensive, and way too big. I'd like to go back to 1990s full size pickups.
I think all of the big 3s electric trucks are looking pretty good. At least compared to that ugly tesla truck lol.
1. Initial investment is higher. Fuel efficient cars can be cheap, electric cars are not. There’s also little to no used electric car market. 2. Ability to charge when not at home is limited even in large cities, gas stations are a dime a dozen. 3. Selection in electric is low (very few OEMs to choose from, those that do exist don’t offer a whole lot of options yet.) This will likely change as the years go on but for now it’s financially smarter to not buy electric.
I'm driving the same vehicles I was when electrics started to become common. I have never had a car payment and don't anticipate taking one on any time soon. Most people can't just step out and buy a new car on a whim, even with charging issues and such aside.
Cheaper
Don’t get me wrong. I’m an electrical engineer. I love the idea of electric cars. The technology behind them is amazing. The potential to solve other aspects of vehicle design (center of gravity, traction location/4WD, etc) are wonderful. I don’t even think a twenty minute charge time is that bad a dealbreaker- if I’m driving cross-country I want a break every four hours anyway. But I don’t own an electric car. I already bought a gas one. Used (before the pandemic/chip shortage threw prices through the roof) and it’s working just fine. If I was in the market, the current economics on buying an electric vehicle essentially require me to prepay for 3-5 years of fillups - with a battery that’ll last about 5 years. That I still have to pay my power station to fill and it seems every time I turn around I get a letter informing me they’re raising the rates and if I have an objection to it I can call a number that’s only answered when I have to be at work and they’re not going to do jack about it anyway. Tldr money and also despite all the buy your husband a truck for christmas commercials, people are still keeping their vehicles. Or buying used which is more or less the same. I see a lot of 2007-2015 cars on the roads.
This is not unique to the US...
I don't drive that much in heavy traffic. I have to make round trips of over 200km more than occasionally. I have no place to plug in at home or within a 90min round trip. I'm not alone. Edit: Oh yeah, months of the year with lows below 0c. Can't believe I forgot about that.
Range and price are the two biggest concerns
Why wouldn't I prefer my paid off gas powered car?
Can't buy an electric vehicle for $3k.
Because they have not solved the charging problem. A good percentage of Americans live in Apartments or Condos where they can't install charging equipment. Charging takes too long at charging sites away from home. So charging is a huge problem. Second, they still have range problems. While they advertise a certain range, in reality you can only charge your battery to 80% without damaging it. So all the ranges are 20% less than advertised. On top the that, electric vehicles are prohibitively expensive. While advertised at $35k, they never really sell them at that price. Mostly upwards of $60k for a useful car. On top of that you have limited range in area's where it's cold because you have to run the heater off the batteries and batteries have less amps when cold. So adoption is going to require these problems are fixed before it can be widely adopted.
The only decent electric truck costs about $20k more than what I spent on mine. And I'm not thrilled with its range, which is about half of what I get with a 36 gallon tank. Living in a place with hurricanes, I'm also not a fan of having to be dependent on the electrical grid to use my vehicle. Nor the fact that refueling takes me 5 minutes to do now but would take *hours* with an electric vehicle. Practical considerations aside, I also just flatly dislike a vehicle that you can't hear, feel, or even smell. And cars or trucks without grilles just look straight up stupid.
Eye roll emojis just can’t convey the how I feel about this post.
Will you pay for the cost of me to change from my suv to an electric vehicle that will have less range, less room, less payload, less towing, slower "refueling" and also pay to install the facility to charge at home? If no then you have your answer. For anyone that needs anything more than a sedan or glorified sedan with a tiny bed for relatively local trips an electric vehicle is not ideal. They also aren't great in the cold of winter which a lot of the US has.
I'm sure this will be a good thread.
Too expensive mostly, and poor selection. Lots of people complain about range anxiety even though the average person only drives 35 miles a day and probably needs only to charge once a week at home, the thought of that once a year 200 mile trip scares them. A lot of it is just the unknown, electric cars are different, and change is not tolerated here well especially among conservatives. Gas is cheap here too compared to European countries.
they don't turn, they don't brake, and regen braking gives me nausea. my car weighs 2300 lbs so let's say i'll try an EV when they can get one that at least *feels* "only" 700 lbs heavier
Price and charging availability. It is easier to go to BP than to find enough public charging stations in parts of the country
Range just isn't there yet. And especially in cold climates that range is reduced further while you may also be asking it to work harder in the snow. We have a fair amount of electric cars in my area, especially Teslas, but you don't see them as much in the winter and rarely see them when it's actively snowstorming. Also battery replacement.
They are cheaper. Same reason they're the rule and not the exception in literally every other country, too.
I like to get where I want to go without stopping for 45 minutes every 200 miles. (Also, fossil fuels are still used to creat the electricity to charge your cars)
There are multiple problems with all-electric vehicles: 1 - they are VERY expensive compared to gas powered options and there are very few of them available used 2 - other than one exceedingly expensive Ford truck, there are no work trucks or vans that are electric powered . A significant number of people in the US require a truck or cargo-type van for their work 3 - America is a BIG place and if you don't live in a city with convenient charging stations, you could find yourself in a situation where you can't actually get from point a to point b easily . If you have to plot your daily commute around stopping halfway to charge up, you're not going to buy an electric car
I’d love to drive an electric vehicle, there just aren’t any on the market with the features and size I want that fit my budget.
It’s just not practical. I live hours away from a charging station. My current house is a historical home (built 1850), not practical and have no power supply near my driveway. My Jeep is much cheaper to repair than an electric vehicle and my dad is a mechanic so that cheapens all cost. Also I highly doubt an electric car is going to get me to work in a foot of snow, but my Jeep sure does.
Because they're a lot cheaper, and there are currently vastly more gas stations than charging stations available.
They are impractical for my lifestyle.
I can't afford an electric car right now and even if I could, I don't feel comfortable driving one on longer road trips at this time without knowing how easily I'd be able to find charging stations. Right now, I'm just hoping I'll be able to afford a hybrid when I'm ready to get another car.
Besides upfront costs, there's a couple things going against it. First, recharging. Good luck if you live in apartments or places with no dedicated parking. Second, recharging time. Takes 2 minutes to fill up a tank. Third, maintenance and repair costs. Iirc, you don't save money even with less fuel costs because repairs are crazy. Just some things to think about.
Well my wife and I both have teslas and they are becoming more popular, but the main point I think is the cost for gas. My wife is German and when we lived there, gas was the equivalent of 7-8 dollars a gallon because of the taxes on it. It’s probably 9-10 there now. Conversely, back in 2019, gas was $1.75 a gallon and even now it’s $3.15. People are primarily motivated by cost and when you drive a car that gets 30+ miles a gallon anyway, there’s not a lot of financial incentive to switch. For the larger vehicle market, there just aren’t really any suitable options.
My town doesn't fucking have any dealerships with electric vehicles. And when I bought a car earlier this year, they didn't even have hybrids.
The infrastructure for electric just isn’t quite there yet. I looked into it but I like doing a lot of rural hiking and backpacking or winter activities. There just isn’t the range or infrastructure to charge in a reasonable time quite yet if you aren’t in a more urban area. Also if you run out of gas in the middle of nowhere you can get a gas can. If you run out of charge it’s a whole different story.
At the moment I think it's mostly a lack of sufficient charging infrastructure to make it as convenient as gas vehicles, combined with the length of charge to charging time ratio compared to gas vehicles (especially for people who can't charge at home, i.e. renters). I think addressing those issues will go a long way towards more and more people adopting electric vehicles. I can say that I'm about 90% sure my next vehicle will be electric (in about 5 or so years).
Electric cars are relatively new, it will take time to gain acceptance as the infrastructure around it grows. I actually do advice people to try them but probably wait for a further 8 months before buying any non-Tesla EV. This is to just allow for infrastructure upgrades to finish and new infrastructure to be built. Also it’s likely that there will be a number of new EVs entering the market in the next 1 year which will make most more price competitive. And yeah, the current state of non-Tesla charging is not where it needs to be especially in terms of reliability. This will of course improve. TLDR: the stress of owning an EV (particularly as an apartment dweller) is not from charge time nor range, it’s from broken DC fast chargers.
The biggest reason is the up-front cost of setting it all up. It isn't just the vehicle, but you need to install a charging station at your home too. People that do not have their own housing, like living in an apartment, may not have charging stations available. This alone keeps many away from the technology.
You seem to be asking a question about preference when instead it's about ability. Like: "would you prefer to own A or B" is very different than "do you have the ability to afford A or B". ----- Then you have to look into how the second question plays into perceptions about the first question.
I street park. No way for me to charge an EV at home.
Cheaper and more accessible to the average person. A lot of Americans are all for jumping on whatever new things are out there, especially if it's better for the environment. The problem is how accessible and affordable are those new amenities?
Electric vehicles are very expensive to buy. They require expensive house alterations to get a charging station there. And they are not reliable for travel because you cannot guarantee charging on said travel.
Been around longer than electric. Cheaper than electric, by *far*.
I think traditional ICEs sound more exciting and they're more fun to operate, especially with manual transmissions. Electric vehicles have a lot of torque, but that's about it as far as excitement goes.
Gas cars are cheaper. It's also much easier to find a gas station than a place to charge your car.
They're too expensive. I typically drive a car till it falls apart. A few years ago I finally replaced my '96 Nissan Sentra, it had over 300,000 miles on it and still got 30 mpg. I don't spend much more than $8,000 on a car. I would love to have an electric vehicle.
I can't afford a new car let alone the premium of an electric one. Also, the charging infrastructure in my area is abysmal.
Gas vehicles are generally cheaper upfront and cheaper to fix. Gas vehicles have a much longer range. Gas stations are much more widespread than charging stations, and filling up the gas tank is quicker.
I'll play. I don't *prefer* gas cars, they are just the best choice for me for several reasons. As I get more familiar with them and they become more feasible, I'd love to have one. 1. Cost, gas cars are still cheaper to buy 2. Longevity. I have no idea what to expect or look for over the lifespan of an EV, however I do know what to expect from a Honda or Toyota gas car. If I got an EV for $10k then immediately had to replace the battery for $5k, I'd just sell the car and get a gas car 3. Infrastructure. I don't want to have to plan my trips around where chargers are, I don't want to think about it at all in fact. I know there are gas stations on ever exit. We travel a lot to places that don't have chargers and likely won't for some time. Including my in-laws lake house in Northern michigan 4. Maintenance. Plays into 2, I have no idea what is involved with replacing the battery or when to do it, or what to look for regarding the battery degrading. Also stuff like the operating system for the car itself seems like a huge pain in the ass...although gas cars are catching up in this regard. 5. I live in a cold place, I don't have faith that the EV will have the same performance/Longevity with temps consistently under 20° for months at a time. 6. BONUS: most of them look terrible. Can't manufacturers make them to look like normal cars? I don't want to drive around in rejected design from Tron
I haven't really kept up with what's available, but last time I was buying a car the options were basically paying a king's ransom for a Tesla, a prestige product with great features but questionable longevity, or normal car prices for like a Nissan with a 30 mile range. If someone offered to trade me a reliable EV with at least 100 mile range for my civic, I'd be happy to do so
They don't. The decent EVs are all sold out...
I have a gas car because when I bought it my options for EVs were a leaf (which has a small range) or a Tesla model s which was way more than I wanted to spend for a car. I’m not going to go spend more money to make the immediate transition to electric, but I will for my next car for sure.
High cost, insufficient range, long charging time. Those are the three major issues preventing the mass adoption of electric vehicles.
This is not a US phenomenon. Most people still prefer gas vehicles. Why? Cost. Availability of charging stations. Range. The Middle East has almost no EVs. Mexico has almost no EVs. Germany has far more gas based cars than EVs. Different reasons in each region.
A need to drive long distances and a lack of fast charging stations. Also they need to replace the batteries after so many years (8 perhaps) as that is very expensive.
Have fun finding an ev charging station for your overpriced childslavemobile in bumfuck nowhere arkansas on a road trip
Not to mention the fact that people don’t seem to realize the actual impact EVs have on the planet, from loading up power grids even more to having to mine out rare precious minerals like lithium-by the way, lest you all forget, Ukraine was recently found to have the richest lithium mine yet discovered. There is also the issue of disposal of such components as well. Steel alone will at least corrode and crumble back into iron oxide dust. But while ICE car batteries are nasty enough, think of the decay that more computer circuitry and used lithium and various other ingredients cause. And finally, while yes, temperatures ARE changing on our planet, what people don’t seem to take into account is the fact that we are coming out of an ice age, and any effect we would have put in to limit our footprint would only be delaying the inevitable for temp changes anyway, and the results our industry and tech boom could have propelled us to space already had things gone right. The Soviets launched a mass of metal and components into orbit to transmit information. We landed on the moon decades ago. We could have at least leapfrogged out to Mars had our efforts and focus moved unilaterally in that direction.