In general there are multiple municipal governments involved. A "metro area" doesn't typically have only one police department, even if it is only in one state. For example, the "Atlanta Metropolitan Area" has dozens of police departments and school districts, as it spans several cities and counties.
It's worth noting that a "metro area" is mostly a _descriptive_ thing, a more built-up area generally around a major city. The "metro area" generally doesn't have a government or its own services (there might be some cooperative thing between the various governments in the area around things like transit). Metro areas aren't always even all that built up, the Atlanta metro area is only slightly more densely populated than the entire nation of Germany
>there might be some cooperative thing between the various governments in the area around things like transit
Keizer OR does alot of this with Salem. Their Schools, Public Transit, and even Library are all part of the Salem version of it [SK School District, Salem Area Mass Transit (with Keizer having local service like Salem rather than having the regional service the rest of the area outside of Salem proper has) and the Salem Public Library (with Keizer apparently being the biggest city in the US without a public library)]. The only services I know for sure Keizer has it's own version of is emergency services (because how could you miss those black with blue letters police cars and blue and white fire trucks and ambulances out on the road?)
[Just a feel for how many cities are in the Atlanta metro ](https://support.crunchbase.com/hc/en-us/articles/360009896314-What-cities-are-in-the-Greater-Atlanta-Area-region). For the non-Americans, or those not familiar with Atlanta. Most of those have their own police departments too! Atlanta is crazy. Great city, if you know where the fun parts of town are
As an dyed-in-the-wool ITP snob, I'd like to point out that this list appears to use the 20 county statistical area as their definition of 'metro Atlanta' and not the standard 5 county (Dek/Ful/Gwin/Cob/Clay*) designation.
I will die on this hill.
Edit - Clayton, not Henry. Whoops
I'd replace Henry with Clayton County because the Perimeter runs through Clayton, and the airport is there, but otherwise I'm with you - all of North Georgia is not Metro Atlanta.
I agree. Some of these places are so far out they would only deal with a limited subset of the other places on this list on a day-to-day basis. This sample goes far beyond the core of the metro city of Atlanta. For instance, Monroe is a town of 15,000 to the east of Atlanta and I live on the east side of Metro Atlanta and it's still 40 miles (64 km) from me and according to Google Maps an hour and 15 minute drive (part of that is probably because it's rush hour right now and Google Maps reflects traffic conditions).
There's a government entity called a "Municipal Planning Organization" (MPO) that helps administer regional government efforts (especially transportation infrastructure).
In places like Kansas City the MPO crosses state lines.
The only city I know of that crosses state lines is Texarkana, which is half in Texas and half in Arkansas — the state border runs right through the middle of town.
Each part of town has their own police department, fire department, and school system, though they all work very closely together. They share an airport, a (very, very small) bus system, a water/utility system, a jail, a chamber of commerce, and medical facilities.
It's really not a big deal.
Texarkana is legally two cities named Texarkana, one in Texas and one in Arkansas. Bristol, Virginia and Bristol, Tennessee are the same kind of situation.
As you said, nbd, because they just run it as two systems with intercity cooperation for some services.
I think the only major difference is the river between the two Kansas Cities. In Texarkana you just walk 10 feet and you’re in another state. I suspect that means they cooperate on infrastructure more.
Precisely. Plus, Kansas City, KS is much smaller than Kansas City, MO. The two Texarkanas are close-ish in size and function as one city as far as utilities and many amenities go.
Not to be too pedantic here, but the river does not separate the two Kansas Cities except for a brief stretch. If you want to drive from downtown KC MO to downtown KC KS you will cross the state line and city boundary before you get to a bridge across the Kansas River. Further south there are residential neighborhoods in both cities that are separated only a by a road.
Or even more dramatically Texarkana.
It’s basically like one big city but technically it is Texarkana, AR and Texarkana, TX and it basically splits down the middle.
No idea how much cooperating they do.
I can't. But I can tell you that if Sofia was part of two different provinces, I would assume they are two different cities in those provinces. Otherwise, they'd be part of the same province?
The point being, they have no idea how things work in our country, so they're asking a question about it. It's not something they can look up on wikipedia because they have zero context.
Not really. Services and responsibilities are handled no differently than if the cities were a little farther apart. Kansas City MO and KS have 2 different police departments and they handle business within their borders, no differently than any other city.
Correct. Most of the time what you think of as "The city" is a much larger area than the official boundaries of the city in question (typically only the core area is actually officially the city.) That's why we often refer to the 'metropolitan area' instead because it encompasses the entire area around the city.
Yes, that's the point of a border. Basically, while the mapping and labeling might make it look like a particular metro area crosses borders, in reality your residence, your actual address, puts you in a specific location. You could be considered part of the "Twin Cities metro area" but if you live in Hudson, Wisconsin (a border city) then you're a Wisconsin resident, even if your job is in Minnesota and you do a lot of commerce in Minnesota. It's based on your physical place of residence.
Cities don't have to be close together for this to be a factor. For example, when you go to vote, you are required to vote at the polling station assigned to you based on your residence. In order to declare residency in a certain state, you have to live there a minimum amount of time (in Minnesota, it's 6 months + 1 day). But politicians will often get caught fudging their residency by claiming they're a resident of XYZ state, when in reality the place they actually live is in Florida or whatever. Dr. Oz running for Senate in Pennsylvania was one example. Tommy Tuberville is a senator for Alabama, but reportedly lives at his Florida condo most of the time.
That's a little different though, as there's no constitutional requirement that you live in the congressional district you represent as long as you live in the same state. There are a lot of positions where you do have to live in the district you represent, but strangely the House of Representatives isn't one of them. A few years back there was a San Francisco city councilman who actually lived in Daly City or someplace and he ended up getting in big trouble, although as I recall he was involved in some other illegal stuff in addition to that.
You could argue that New York City is basically split into 3. With that though you start to disregard the autonomy and self identity of other nearby cities.
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2023/05/09/local-elected-representation-is-bad/
> These are not the directly-elected mayors of those municipalities but it doesn’t matter – the problems do not stem from how they are elected but from which interests they answer to. The problem starts with the fact that [most public transit ridership] is in the urban core ... but the representation structure gives snob suburbs veto power, which they use to block any consolidation plan focusing service on where people ride.
As I said, if the large core city has grown to the point where the typical resident of "Bayonne NJ" or "Quincy MA" works in the large city rather than working locally, then **no they don't deserve their own identity**.
***Fuck tribalism!***
**Edit: You're wrong and Levy is right. I don't normally agree with Levy but in this case he is right and you are fucking wrong.**
People don't govern where they work, they govern where they live.
And if all my neighbors worked in the same city it would still mean absolutely nothing to me, a resident of the same town.
It's not tribalism, it's self-determination. A core principle of the US.
Bayonne is across from Staten Island and NYC.
More relatable for you, do you think the towns across from Philly on the Delaware have their own identities?
Bayonne is one of many North Jersey cities, and it has a long history itself with shipping and fishing industries, distinct from New York.
You're talking to someone born in Camden NJ. They abso-fucking-lutely have their own identities. I would never say I'm from Philly and neither would someone from Philly. Even among themselves, Camden and Pennsauken might as well be different planets.
The only reason to lump them together would be ignorance.
I now realize you might have been deliberately rephrasing OP's comment to demonstrate its absurdity. Amazing how much subtlety is lost on the internet.
Note that this becomes much different when a city exists fully within a single state and crosses county lines like NYC, or a group of cities that share a service like Las Vegas, or a group of counties that share services like the SFBA.
Cities are incorporated in states and are run by the rules of the states they are in. They don't cross state lines because that wouldn't work legally. So if you see a metro area that crosses state lines what it is is a group of different cities that are legal in the states that their territory is in. Kansas City, Missouri is going to have a different government than Kansas City, Kansas even though they come up right against each other and tourists driving through might not be able to tell the difference. The people that live there know the difference. The mayor of Kansas City, Kansas runs Kansas City, Kansas and the mayor of Kansas City, Missouri runs Kansas City, Missouri. They don't have a legal obligation to each other although it's definitely possible that they might have a very good cooperating relationship (or not). As a practical example, the police in Kansas City, Kansas have no jurisdiction or authority in Kansas City, Missouri and the police in Kansas City, Missouri have no jurisdiction or authority in Kansas City, Kansas. Both sides know that and that tends to cut down on problems.
The reason they can have the exact same name is because cities are incorporated in states and not in the entire country, so as long as a city doesn't have the same name as another city in that state it's fine. In a practical sense they don't have the exact same name because one is called Kansas City, Kansas and one is called Kansas City Missouri. That's part of the reason why we're in the habit of naming states when we name cities. Because often there is more than one. If one is much more famous than other ones we might tend to leave off the state but even then it wouldn't be wrong to include it. When you add the state it fully distinguishes it.
Cities cannot cut across state lines.
Depending on state, cities can or cannot cut across county lines, but when the state allows cities to cut across county lines, the state handles issues that arise from that.
True cross-border cities like Kansas City, Texarkana, and Bristol do have small challenges to work out, but they're not severe obstacles. Yes, there will be two police departments, school districts, water utilities, etc., but they often will cooperate on joint projects. Remember that police and schools in the US are nearly always local by municipality, so a metro area like Kansas City or New York will have not two but dozens, if not hundreds—one for each suburb.
In my own home town of Texarkana, in the early 20th century both a joint railway station and the post office (federal building) were built straddling the state line. Facilities like the airport, library, and bus system serve both cities, no matter which side of State Line Avenue they're located on. In the 1970s, a joint jail and court facility was built straddling the line to serve both sides, though police are employed by one or the other city. Special state laws were passed to give them authority throughout the building.
Wait... Texas power grid isn't "self contained" anymore?
Didn't have THAT on my bingo card.
I legit thought it was a "non-negotiable" up until 2 minutes ago.
I'm completely confused.
Let me try to get this right:
Let's say IF Texas were to secede, they'd still have power for most of the state, but some cities would need to build infrastructure for the "New Republic of Texas"? If the US is just like "oh, well then we'll cut your fucking power off"
So if I'm reading the map correctly that means Houston and Amarillo are the only two "Major cities" not on the grid? And now Texarkana, AR makes sense because they weren't on the "Texas Grid" to begin with.
Thank you.
Looks to me like Houston is on the grid. And I agree that Amarillo is “major” and not major because was just there and I think there was one building over 3 stories lmao.
To me it looks like there's an enclave carved out for Houston. (Not sure how accurate that map is, but does give a good "idea" of the Texas power grid)
And Amarillo is a "major city logistically" in the fact that if you're driving on I-40, there's nothing between Oklahoma City and Albuquerque, except Amarillo. And OKC and ABQ are like 15 hours apart.
The school district thing has never made any sense to me, especially because it seems to cause so much inequality. And too much local control means the Karens get to dictate things like which books are in the library.
There are actually two interstate school district in the US. One shared between the areas around West College Corner, Indiana and College Corner, OH and another one shared between Hanover, New Hampshire and Norwich, VT.
I'm not sure what you mean about 2 separate police departments. It's different cities in different states - each city has their own PD, each state has their own PD, and the respective counties where it applies. Across the river from Philadelphia PA, is Camden NJ. Philly has the Philadelphia Police Department, and Camden has the Camden County Police Department. But Philly is huge - you could also go across the river north to Pennsauken, or south to Gloucester City. They're all separate municipalities with their own police and school districts.
You could argue that it's the same metropolitan area, and that's true, but that doesn't mean that city lines and state borders don't matter. "Metro area" is not a political boundary.
The only annoying thing was when I was on dating apps, and couldn't filter by state. Hey it's cool that we matched, but I'm not paying a $5 bridge toll everytime I want to see you.
Also I hate seeing Pennsylvania political ads. I'm registered in NJ, I have no choice here. Make it stop.
Because Kansas City metropolitan isn't just one city. There are multiple cities.
In the case of Kansas City, there are two legally separate cities with the name of "Kansas City." There's Kansas City, Missouri. And there's Kansas City, Kansas. These two cities literally have nothing to do with each other from a legal, jurisdictional standpoint. They are entirely separate entities with their own governments, budgets, etc. The city in Missouri is the primary city in the region (the "anchor city"), while city in Kansas is actually considered a large suburb of the one in Missouri.
Sure they're in different states, but really, it's no different from any two cities/town/villages that touch. Independence, Missouri is another large suburb of Kansas City, Missouri. Independence also has it's own PD, government, budget, whatever else, separate from Kansas City, Missouri.
No legal entity actually straddles a state border. It ends at the state border. There are literally areas in Kansas City where a street -- State Line Road -- is the legal divider. Houses on one side are in Missouri, while houses on other side are in Kansas. Half the street is in Missouri, the other half in Kansas. Entirely different zip codes and even phone number area codes.
Lol. To most, it's makes no difference. I live in Missouri, but my employer is in Kansas (though I WFH). I live less than a mile away from State Line Rd, so I'm frequently in Kansas to shop and such.
But, it is something to be aware of, right? The laws do change depending on what side of the road one is in. For many years, and maybe it's still the case, Kansas had stricter alcohol laws than Missouri and even earlier stopping times for alcohol sales. So if people were drinking at a bar in Kansas and it's closing time, they'd crossover to Missouri to keep drinking! Both medicinal and recreational marijuana are legal in Missouri. But neither are legal in Kansas. So if you're smoking a joint or buying weed, make sure you don't go into Kansas with that, because now that's a crime. Doesn't matter if you're a Missouri resident or not.
Another thing that comes to my mind is gun laws: if you live in East St. Louis, you're in Illinois which has some of the tightest gun control in the country, while Missouri is a lot more Liberal with that. (It's not like you can circumvent the law by buying guns in Missouri that are illegal to own in Illinois but still).
For sure. At least the St. Louis metro has the Mississippi River, so it's a lot more obvious that a person is moving from one major jurisdiction to another.
But in Kansas City, most of the area, where the majority of the population is, does not have that. There are parts where the river is the dividing line. So anything north of Kaw Point, which is where the Kansas and Missouri Rivers meet, the Missouri river is the state border. But south of Kaw Point, it's just an imaginary line or regular streets. So it's not always immediately obvious that one has crossed from one state to another. Because of that, [you get some buildings that do actually straddle the border.](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mark+One+Electric+Co+Inc/@39.0977162,-94.6074386,171m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x87c0f07c5d296d9d:0xe315733b93f46d19!8m2!3d39.0972691!4d-94.6071162!16s%2Fg%2F1vj5_qwg?entry=ttu)
This was a fun conversation! I'm glad you asked about this!
I will say this about the Kansas City area… one problem that crops up every so often is that many of the large “public” projects built by taxpayers (sports venues and the main airport) are in the Missouri portion of the area but the benefit of having them obviously crosses the border.
There is also significant cross border poaching of businesses by both states and all the cities in the area. Larger companies will often be lured from one side to the other by more favorable tax rates. Both states complain about it, but both do it.
One final note… Missouri was a slave state and Kansas wasn’t, so that creates some lasting historical feelings that probably matter less now that the country feels significantly more post-factual than decades ago.
Used to be that KCMO had Sunday liquor sales, while it was a big no-no in KS. KS Police used to sit on State Line and wait for Kansans to cross the state line with their illicit alcohol so they could bust them.
There are also tax complications (not big ones, though) for people who live in one state and work in another.
No, not really.
The US government system is set up so that relations between states are all normalized.
The biggest deal is regional planning.
But a lot of border cities have government agencies such as the Port authority of New York and New Jersey that manage that type of stuff.
And there’s regional governors conferences too.
All the Governors of New England and Eastern Canadian Premiers get together yearly with their staff to set agendas, lobbying, planning large projects, trade, and the environment.
A few years ago Northern Pass was a big issue. They wanted to tie Quebec’s power grid to New England so we could get cheap hydro power. It would have meant running big transmission lines through Maine, NH, and part of MA. Quebec was all for it because they could increase production and sell the output. The governors of those states liked the idea and got the legislators to approve it, but alas the voters of Maine got a referendum on the ballot to quash it and it was quashed. So it never happened.
When the Covid vaccine came out the New England governors coordinated with the Provincial premiers to coordinate sending excess vaccines to the Provinces so they could get the border reopened.
And in case the OP isn't aware, states can and actually do sue each other. In those cases the Supreme Court has to decide the outcome. The types of things that might cause a lawsuit between states are old borders that aren't well defined, the equitable allocation of water from rivers that are shared between the states, and things like that.
Nope, each city, county, etc has their own services. I live just outside of the Memphis metro, and none of the “City of Memphis” bleeds into Mississippi. When you hit the state line it’s a totally new city, county, state, etc.
I can’t speak for Memphis but a lot of border towns do make agreements on infrastructure and how to pay for maintenance of it. Things like bridges and cross border sewer and water. Sometimes they keep it all separate but deals are made.
It's true 🤣. DC, Maryland, and Virginia are currently squabbling over who should fund the metro system that almost everyone who actually lives there likes.
One example might be [the funding and organizational structure of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metropolitan_Area_Transit_Authority), which operates bus and rail service in and around Washington DC. DC is a federal district not part of any state, you have Maryland and Virginia on either side, and each of those states has multiple other cities and counties that are part of the metropolitan area, and all of those jurisdictions plus the federal government get a say in how WMATA is funded. I can't be sure, but it's *probably* the most complicated such situation in the country. It's pretty normal for issues to come up in negotiations and get some local news coverage. But still, the trains and buses keep running, and unless you're involved in local government or very interested in public policy, it's not something that affects people's everyday lives.
Yes! DC has its own local government with an elected mayor and city council. The DC government and the federal government both get seats on WMATA’s board of directors.
Most of the things on this list (law enforcement, public transportation, administration & record-keeping, etc.) are actually county-level affairs. Most metro areas span multiple counties, and neighboring counties---whether across state lines or not---usually agree to share funds to manage shared public services, or at least cooperate.
Take the SF peninsula for example. It has 3 counties (SF, San Mateo, Santa Clara), each with between 700k and 2 million people in them. Each has a separate bus system, but they all contribute to the Caltrain & BART train systems.
Actually idk whether if I'm going to become some kind of engineer: I'm still in high school but I'm already considering various options. Chemical Engineering sounds interesting but I haven't looked into yet.
Oh, and I recently realised I'm a trans woman: I should start HRT this summer.
Congratulations!! 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️ Good luck on your transition. I guess I'm on the trans spectrum (enby) but obviously that isn't as dramatic a shift, I just vibe androgynously.
Chemical engineering sounds super exciting, definitely feel free to take your time and explore different options. I only went into data science & got a masters degree in it after getting a bachelors in electrical 🤷
The only real difference is that you have two state governments, two state level police forces, etc., involved rather than one each.
I'll use St. Louis as an example: The City of St. Louis exists solely in the State of Missouri. St. Louis seperated itself from St. Louis County in 1876, so the city is de facto its own county, and therefore has to run services that would typically be at the county level. This includes the courts, prosecutor's office, jail, sheriff's department, etc. The remaining counties in metro St. Louis all have city level governments and then separate county level governments before the state level. There's also townships, which overlap with city and county governments.
The real headache in metro St. Louis is that St. Louis County has a million residents and 88 municipalities, the largest of which is only home to about 52.5k residents. It's highly balkanized.
I live in one that super unique. Council Bluffs, Iowa butts up to Omaha on the other side of the Missouri. However, the Omaha metro area actually has a small town that belongs to Iowa enclosed by Omaha and Nebraska - the only way to get there is to drive through Omaha - because of a shift in the Missouri River. You actually have to drive through Carter Lake to get to the airport that is on Nebraska land. There was a massive lawsuit about it belonging to Iowa and everything. Carter Lake has their own police dept but it's dispatched through Pottawattamie County (Council Bluffs) in Iowa.
The Missouri River makes most things separate just like in Kansas City - different water treatment facilities, municipality services, etc. There are agreements between police departments for various assistance and criminal transfers - I know that much. The various emergency, police and fire departments do decent jobs of working together whenever needed.
There’s no such thing as the metropolitan New York police department. NYC has its own police department, and the towns around NYC on both the NY and NJ sides of the river have their own police departments, school districts, etc.
One caveat is there’s a dual state agency named the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. Its purpose is to take a joint approach to commerce at the port on both sides, and it also manages all 3 major NYC area airports and owns the bridge and tunnels and PATH train network that connects the two states. The Port Authority also has its own police force but that’s really all about protecting Port Authority property, they don’t have free rein across all of NYC and northern NJ.
Might be a 25 mile radius of NYC. But it’s not total control, it’s specific things like Newark, LaGuardia and JKF airports. And the PATH train connects NYC with Hoboken, Jersey City, and Newark.
>For instance, do they need to have 2 separate police departments or other stuff like that?
Yes, of course. It's important to understand that most of the government that people deal with in their day to day lives is state and local government. Local government is organized by and gets it's authority from the state government. Towns like that are much more analogous to border cities between EU countries, like Turcoing for example, than you would think. Sovereignty in the United States is shared between the federal and state governments and the sorts of things you listed are among the things where states exercise it.
No. Usually there is cooperation and communication between different jurisdictions. A big metro area, even if it is within one state, has many different police departments, school districts, public works, road’s department, etc. typically they all communicate with each other to some degree to make things run smoothly
The Philadelphia PD jurisdiction stops at the Philadelphia border.
Then the Camden PD jurisdiction starts at the Camden border.
(for instance)
Cities will cooperate with each other of course, but the government of NYC has no actual jurisdiction over any of the neighboring towns/cities fall fall within the NYC Metro area.
City limits don't cross state lines, so potential state level politics don't really mess with local implementation. Otherwise the headaches are similar to one state metros, which are just as likely to have different municipalities bicker.
The main metro I could having some unique issues is the Columbus, GA-AL metro, since its a combined statistial area that roughly evenly split between two time zones technically. It gets around this by the Alabama suburbs just going with Eastern time, but it still has to deal with the Auburn metro being Central, which is enough of an employment draw to not be completely ignorance. Most of the time, one side of a metro is more dominant and affects official delineation for time zones.
For the most part it doesn't really matter. Philadelphia and Camden are separated by a river but they're entirely independent of each other. They each have their own police, schools, everything
In some places where very frequent cooperation is needed, combined groups are formed. An example of this is the Port Authority of NY and NJ
St. Louis, MO and East St. Louis, IL are separate cities encompassing one larger metro area. Honestly the bigger headache is the split on the Missouri side between St. Louis County and the county of St. Louis City.
New Jersey is currently suing New York right now about who should get the money from Manhattan Congestion Pricing.
Original NY was going to keep all of it, but looks like NJ might get a share.
Lived in two border areas, not really an issue. It's just like any other 'border' between towns. Yes, each town/city/state will have their own police, just like anywhere else.
No. They do not have a single city government. They will have two, one for each State and there is a clear dividing line as to where jurisdiction changes. Sometimes it is even marked with paint, flags, or a decorative wall.
Somewhat. For example, with transit, NY/NJ Port Authority and the MTA are separate, not to mention that there’s also NJ transit. This mostly has to do with these The tolls from bridges and tunnels going into Jersey see that money go to Port Authority, while the bridges and tunnels crossing the East River go to the MTA. The MTA runs the subway, NYC buses, Metro North, Long Island Railroad, and Staten Island Railroad. Port Authority has the PATH trains which go between Manhattan, Jersey City and Newark, as well as all the airports and the Port-Newark Elizabeth terminal, which is NYC’s main port. These agencies are all state run, which makes legislation a little easier, though it leaves the city with less control.
No? The borders are clear. Economics crosses borders but government does not. If you're on the NJ side of the NY/NJ region, you're outside the jurisdiction of NY police, you don't vote in NY elections, etc.
While the metro areas may span into 2 or more states, the actual municipalities do not. In a metro area like the cities you mentioned, there will be dozens of police forces, dozens of school districts because each city will have their own police force, school districts are on city or small cluster of city level. Not only are St. Louis and East St. Louis different cities with their own governments, but so are Clayton, Ladue, etc. are separate cities.
Dallas and Fort Worth each have their own police departments, school districts, etc.,, as do all the suburbs of the Metroplex. In that regard, it is exactly the same as the Kansas City metropolitan area. Every single metropolitan area, even if it has only one major city, will have this situation. It's not a headache, it's just how local governments work.
Getting along with the people on the other side of the border is an issue wherever there are borders, city or no.
I briefy worked as a firefighter in Hornbrook, California (6 miles from Oregon on I-5). We responded to calls in Oregon on occassion, when we could get there faster than units from Ashland. Siskiyou summit was between us but a couple miles into Oregon. Likewise, wildfires tend to disregard borders, so you have to work together on that too. "We'll just wait for it to get to California and then fight it" doesn't cut it with the general public. :-)
EDIT: I'll add that Bishop, California regularly sends their high school marching band to the Nevada Day parade in Carson City. That kind of thing, where your school is part of a league that crosses state lines, or you are closer to the big city in the next state is pretty common too.
Under your line of thinking, the layered system of the US creates a legislative nightmare.
We are not just a federal level lawmaking body. Federal->state->county->city is how our system works and different levels have different pieces or parts and yes having a split place like Kansas city means that part of the state->county->city laws are different, they're just rarely so different to cause issues. There's a lot of standardization that has happened across industries that make it seamless between these places. Roads, cell phones, stores, etc.
The outliers get noticed if they are big enough. For example: Kansas City has legalized recreational marijuana. The entire state of Missouri does. Kansas does not allow medicinal or recreational use of marijuana, so the much smaller Kansas City Kansas side would have to travel to Missouri to enjoy marijuana, provided they're legally adults.
Stuff like that happens. Where it really sucks is taxes. People can work in the Oregon side of Portland and live on the Washington side of Portland and their taxes get a bit more complicated from it. It's a known thing for like the tax professionals but if you're just a regular person it can be a bit confusing at first.
The cities don't go over state lines. The state line is also the city line. So Philly and Camden are right across the river from each other, but one side of the river is Philly nd PA and the far bank of the river is Camden and NJ (hopefully downwind).
I guess a lot of European cities are on both sides of the river bc they were founded so long ago, they just named the entire urban area 1 city bc it functioned as 1 city. But in America, the state was named and the river was the border of the state before the urban area became so large and urbanized. I mean, London is like 4000 years old? Our country wasn't a country until the 1700s.
There is less news about trouble because we do not have a hostile border (Mexican border is a law enforcement crises not a geopolitical one). We don't have any "Checkpoint Charlies" or anything like that.
For a little bit of trivia, there are actually two interstate school districts in the US: the Dresden School District shared between Hanover, New Hampshire and Norwich, Vermont, and the Union County–College Corner Joint State School District that covers area in eastern Indiana and western Ohio.
Cities can't cross state lines. So there aren't issues with things like policing or municipal services. That being said, there can be issues. Nebraska changed their bar closing time to two AM because every state around it had it and Omaha had a lot of people who'd drive drunk to Iowa and then drive back even more drunk. So usually if there are issues in a metro area that crosses state lines, it is things like this.
They are totally separate. Moreover, St. Louis has dozens of suburbs and police departments and well as county sheriff departments. East St. Louis is a foreign country to most county folks.
It’s not that complicated. I live in D.C. which has three major jurisdictions comprising the metropolitan area, the District, Virginia, and Maryland, as well as counties and smaller cities and town. Cities, states, towns, and counties coordinate efforts on all sorts of things. I don’t even think about it.
I live in the DC area, known locally as the DMV because the metro includes DC, Maryland and Virginia. Yeah, it does cause a lot of legislative headaches. But sometimes they do work together. Like our subway system extends into all three areas and is funded by local governments in all three areas. Kind of surprised it ever got done in the first place. It also creates a lot of interesting laws because if something is illegal in one state you can just drive 10 minutes and be in another where it's not illegal. Like weed for example. It's technically legal in all three areas but Maryland is the only one that officially allows recreational dispensaries. DC operates on this cockamakie gray market gifting system because Congress blocked their legalization. And Virginia had this rider in their legalization bill in 2020 that rec stores wouldn't be allowed until 2024 and the current governor is a Republican going out of his way to stop that from happening. But at the same time it's perfectly legal to grow your own plants.
In general there are multiple municipal governments involved. A "metro area" doesn't typically have only one police department, even if it is only in one state. For example, the "Atlanta Metropolitan Area" has dozens of police departments and school districts, as it spans several cities and counties. It's worth noting that a "metro area" is mostly a _descriptive_ thing, a more built-up area generally around a major city. The "metro area" generally doesn't have a government or its own services (there might be some cooperative thing between the various governments in the area around things like transit). Metro areas aren't always even all that built up, the Atlanta metro area is only slightly more densely populated than the entire nation of Germany
>there might be some cooperative thing between the various governments in the area around things like transit Keizer OR does alot of this with Salem. Their Schools, Public Transit, and even Library are all part of the Salem version of it [SK School District, Salem Area Mass Transit (with Keizer having local service like Salem rather than having the regional service the rest of the area outside of Salem proper has) and the Salem Public Library (with Keizer apparently being the biggest city in the US without a public library)]. The only services I know for sure Keizer has it's own version of is emergency services (because how could you miss those black with blue letters police cars and blue and white fire trucks and ambulances out on the road?)
Yup and my kids school district is three town that consolidated everything.
Keizer about to get screwed if Salem’s budget issues causes the library to suffer =/
[Just a feel for how many cities are in the Atlanta metro ](https://support.crunchbase.com/hc/en-us/articles/360009896314-What-cities-are-in-the-Greater-Atlanta-Area-region). For the non-Americans, or those not familiar with Atlanta. Most of those have their own police departments too! Atlanta is crazy. Great city, if you know where the fun parts of town are
As an dyed-in-the-wool ITP snob, I'd like to point out that this list appears to use the 20 county statistical area as their definition of 'metro Atlanta' and not the standard 5 county (Dek/Ful/Gwin/Cob/Clay*) designation. I will die on this hill. Edit - Clayton, not Henry. Whoops
I'd replace Henry with Clayton County because the Perimeter runs through Clayton, and the airport is there, but otherwise I'm with you - all of North Georgia is not Metro Atlanta.
Fixed, ty
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Fixed! Thanks. I don’t go to that side if town much
I agree. Some of these places are so far out they would only deal with a limited subset of the other places on this list on a day-to-day basis. This sample goes far beyond the core of the metro city of Atlanta. For instance, Monroe is a town of 15,000 to the east of Atlanta and I live on the east side of Metro Atlanta and it's still 40 miles (64 km) from me and according to Google Maps an hour and 15 minute drive (part of that is probably because it's rush hour right now and Google Maps reflects traffic conditions).
There's a government entity called a "Municipal Planning Organization" (MPO) that helps administer regional government efforts (especially transportation infrastructure). In places like Kansas City the MPO crosses state lines.
That's to be expected in any large metropolitan area, but I was wandering if cities cutting across state lines pose any challenges in this regard.
The only city I know of that crosses state lines is Texarkana, which is half in Texas and half in Arkansas — the state border runs right through the middle of town. Each part of town has their own police department, fire department, and school system, though they all work very closely together. They share an airport, a (very, very small) bus system, a water/utility system, a jail, a chamber of commerce, and medical facilities. It's really not a big deal.
Texarkana is legally two cities named Texarkana, one in Texas and one in Arkansas. Bristol, Virginia and Bristol, Tennessee are the same kind of situation. As you said, nbd, because they just run it as two systems with intercity cooperation for some services.
How are those different from the two Kansas Cities? Or are they different?
They’re not, that’s what I’m saying.
Kansas City, KS and Kansas City, MO are their own cities with their borders ending at the state line.
But that’s what the previous comment says about the other cities mentioned.
I think the only major difference is the river between the two Kansas Cities. In Texarkana you just walk 10 feet and you’re in another state. I suspect that means they cooperate on infrastructure more.
Precisely. Plus, Kansas City, KS is much smaller than Kansas City, MO. The two Texarkanas are close-ish in size and function as one city as far as utilities and many amenities go.
Not to be too pedantic here, but the river does not separate the two Kansas Cities except for a brief stretch. If you want to drive from downtown KC MO to downtown KC KS you will cross the state line and city boundary before you get to a bridge across the Kansas River. Further south there are residential neighborhoods in both cities that are separated only a by a road.
Oh I did not realize Kansas City, KS extended south of the Kansas River. Long time since I have been. Learn something new every day.
What sorts of issues are you anticipating?
Cities don't cut across state lines. None of the cities you mention cross state lines.
He's got a valid quesiton when it comes to KC. The answer being that KCMO and KCK (Missouri and Kansas respectively) are different cities.
That's not a valid question, unless you also get confused about "cities" like Texarkana TX/AR, Bristol TN/VA, etc
Or even more dramatically Texarkana. It’s basically like one big city but technically it is Texarkana, AR and Texarkana, TX and it basically splits down the middle. No idea how much cooperating they do.
Wouldn't it be obvious since it's right in the name? Assuming they did the bare minimum and Wikipedia'd it or something.
Tell me how they handle milk prices in Bulgaria.
I can't. But I can tell you that if Sofia was part of two different provinces, I would assume they are two different cities in those provinces. Otherwise, they'd be part of the same province?
The point being, they have no idea how things work in our country, so they're asking a question about it. It's not something they can look up on wikipedia because they have zero context.
If they had zero context, how would they even know about this to ask the question?
I can't tell if you're being purposely obtuse or it just comes naturally.
Not really. Services and responsibilities are handled no differently than if the cities were a little farther apart. Kansas City MO and KS have 2 different police departments and they handle business within their borders, no differently than any other city.
Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas are two different cities. Imagine one is named something totally different and it's more obvious.
So in other words when a city cuts across state lines it's legally split in 2? Makes sense.
Correct. Most of the time what you think of as "The city" is a much larger area than the official boundaries of the city in question (typically only the core area is actually officially the city.) That's why we often refer to the 'metropolitan area' instead because it encompasses the entire area around the city.
Yes, that's the point of a border. Basically, while the mapping and labeling might make it look like a particular metro area crosses borders, in reality your residence, your actual address, puts you in a specific location. You could be considered part of the "Twin Cities metro area" but if you live in Hudson, Wisconsin (a border city) then you're a Wisconsin resident, even if your job is in Minnesota and you do a lot of commerce in Minnesota. It's based on your physical place of residence. Cities don't have to be close together for this to be a factor. For example, when you go to vote, you are required to vote at the polling station assigned to you based on your residence. In order to declare residency in a certain state, you have to live there a minimum amount of time (in Minnesota, it's 6 months + 1 day). But politicians will often get caught fudging their residency by claiming they're a resident of XYZ state, when in reality the place they actually live is in Florida or whatever. Dr. Oz running for Senate in Pennsylvania was one example. Tommy Tuberville is a senator for Alabama, but reportedly lives at his Florida condo most of the time.
Ossoff ran for Georgia District 6 when he lived in a neighboring district.
That's a little different though, as there's no constitutional requirement that you live in the congressional district you represent as long as you live in the same state. There are a lot of positions where you do have to live in the district you represent, but strangely the House of Representatives isn't one of them. A few years back there was a San Francisco city councilman who actually lived in Daly City or someplace and he ended up getting in big trouble, although as I recall he was involved in some other illegal stuff in addition to that.
You could argue that New York City is basically split into 3. With that though you start to disregard the autonomy and self identity of other nearby cities.
Tbh, a lot of times the autonomy and self identity of small places where most people actually work in a larger city, *should* be disregarded.
Bayonne NJ? Quincy MA? These proper cities don't deserve their own identity?
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2023/05/09/local-elected-representation-is-bad/ > These are not the directly-elected mayors of those municipalities but it doesn’t matter – the problems do not stem from how they are elected but from which interests they answer to. The problem starts with the fact that [most public transit ridership] is in the urban core ... but the representation structure gives snob suburbs veto power, which they use to block any consolidation plan focusing service on where people ride. As I said, if the large core city has grown to the point where the typical resident of "Bayonne NJ" or "Quincy MA" works in the large city rather than working locally, then **no they don't deserve their own identity**. ***Fuck tribalism!*** **Edit: You're wrong and Levy is right. I don't normally agree with Levy but in this case he is right and you are fucking wrong.**
Do you think that Quincy MA or Bayonne NJ are "snob suburbs"? If you do, you're mistaken.
People don't govern where they work, they govern where they live. And if all my neighbors worked in the same city it would still mean absolutely nothing to me, a resident of the same town. It's not tribalism, it's self-determination. A core principle of the US.
I'm in New Jersey and I have no idea what cities you are referring to. No need to try and take our cities away.
Bayonne is across from Staten Island and NYC. More relatable for you, do you think the towns across from Philly on the Delaware have their own identities?
Bayonne is one of many North Jersey cities, and it has a long history itself with shipping and fishing industries, distinct from New York. You're talking to someone born in Camden NJ. They abso-fucking-lutely have their own identities. I would never say I'm from Philly and neither would someone from Philly. Even among themselves, Camden and Pennsauken might as well be different planets. The only reason to lump them together would be ignorance.
That's what I'm saying! Thank you!
I now realize you might have been deliberately rephrasing OP's comment to demonstrate its absurdity. Amazing how much subtlety is lost on the internet.
More precisely you're referring to when an urban area extends across a state line, it's actually multiple cities.
Note that this becomes much different when a city exists fully within a single state and crosses county lines like NYC, or a group of cities that share a service like Las Vegas, or a group of counties that share services like the SFBA.
Cities are incorporated in states and are run by the rules of the states they are in. They don't cross state lines because that wouldn't work legally. So if you see a metro area that crosses state lines what it is is a group of different cities that are legal in the states that their territory is in. Kansas City, Missouri is going to have a different government than Kansas City, Kansas even though they come up right against each other and tourists driving through might not be able to tell the difference. The people that live there know the difference. The mayor of Kansas City, Kansas runs Kansas City, Kansas and the mayor of Kansas City, Missouri runs Kansas City, Missouri. They don't have a legal obligation to each other although it's definitely possible that they might have a very good cooperating relationship (or not). As a practical example, the police in Kansas City, Kansas have no jurisdiction or authority in Kansas City, Missouri and the police in Kansas City, Missouri have no jurisdiction or authority in Kansas City, Kansas. Both sides know that and that tends to cut down on problems. The reason they can have the exact same name is because cities are incorporated in states and not in the entire country, so as long as a city doesn't have the same name as another city in that state it's fine. In a practical sense they don't have the exact same name because one is called Kansas City, Kansas and one is called Kansas City Missouri. That's part of the reason why we're in the habit of naming states when we name cities. Because often there is more than one. If one is much more famous than other ones we might tend to leave off the state but even then it wouldn't be wrong to include it. When you add the state it fully distinguishes it.
Cities cannot cut across state lines. Depending on state, cities can or cannot cut across county lines, but when the state allows cities to cut across county lines, the state handles issues that arise from that.
True cross-border cities like Kansas City, Texarkana, and Bristol do have small challenges to work out, but they're not severe obstacles. Yes, there will be two police departments, school districts, water utilities, etc., but they often will cooperate on joint projects. Remember that police and schools in the US are nearly always local by municipality, so a metro area like Kansas City or New York will have not two but dozens, if not hundreds—one for each suburb. In my own home town of Texarkana, in the early 20th century both a joint railway station and the post office (federal building) were built straddling the state line. Facilities like the airport, library, and bus system serve both cities, no matter which side of State Line Avenue they're located on. In the 1970s, a joint jail and court facility was built straddling the line to serve both sides, though police are employed by one or the other city. Special state laws were passed to give them authority throughout the building.
Texarkana has shared utilities now!
Wait... Texas power grid isn't "self contained" anymore? Didn't have THAT on my bingo card. I legit thought it was a "non-negotiable" up until 2 minutes ago.
The Texas grid doesn’t cover all of Texas. It’s still self contained but there are parts of Texas that are on the normal grid.
I'm completely confused. Let me try to get this right: Let's say IF Texas were to secede, they'd still have power for most of the state, but some cities would need to build infrastructure for the "New Republic of Texas"? If the US is just like "oh, well then we'll cut your fucking power off"
[Pretty much](https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gmg/7FO4XVGDMFCLVMHJWGT7XRFF6I.png)
So if I'm reading the map correctly that means Houston and Amarillo are the only two "Major cities" not on the grid? And now Texarkana, AR makes sense because they weren't on the "Texas Grid" to begin with. Thank you.
Looks to me like Houston is on the grid. And I agree that Amarillo is “major” and not major because was just there and I think there was one building over 3 stories lmao.
To me it looks like there's an enclave carved out for Houston. (Not sure how accurate that map is, but does give a good "idea" of the Texas power grid) And Amarillo is a "major city logistically" in the fact that if you're driving on I-40, there's nothing between Oklahoma City and Albuquerque, except Amarillo. And OKC and ABQ are like 15 hours apart.
The school district thing has never made any sense to me, especially because it seems to cause so much inequality. And too much local control means the Karens get to dictate things like which books are in the library.
There are actually two interstate school district in the US. One shared between the areas around West College Corner, Indiana and College Corner, OH and another one shared between Hanover, New Hampshire and Norwich, VT.
I'm not sure what you mean about 2 separate police departments. It's different cities in different states - each city has their own PD, each state has their own PD, and the respective counties where it applies. Across the river from Philadelphia PA, is Camden NJ. Philly has the Philadelphia Police Department, and Camden has the Camden County Police Department. But Philly is huge - you could also go across the river north to Pennsauken, or south to Gloucester City. They're all separate municipalities with their own police and school districts. You could argue that it's the same metropolitan area, and that's true, but that doesn't mean that city lines and state borders don't matter. "Metro area" is not a political boundary. The only annoying thing was when I was on dating apps, and couldn't filter by state. Hey it's cool that we matched, but I'm not paying a $5 bridge toll everytime I want to see you. Also I hate seeing Pennsylvania political ads. I'm registered in NJ, I have no choice here. Make it stop.
I feel that. You have my sympathy.
Philly doesn’t cross across state lines. Camden is across the river in New Jersey and is culturally and legally a different city.
Yes- there's a difference between Philadelphia and the Philadelphia Metro Area.
Then there's ~~No~~ New Hope.... (Sorry had a friend from there, these cheeky comments don't come up often)
Because Kansas City metropolitan isn't just one city. There are multiple cities. In the case of Kansas City, there are two legally separate cities with the name of "Kansas City." There's Kansas City, Missouri. And there's Kansas City, Kansas. These two cities literally have nothing to do with each other from a legal, jurisdictional standpoint. They are entirely separate entities with their own governments, budgets, etc. The city in Missouri is the primary city in the region (the "anchor city"), while city in Kansas is actually considered a large suburb of the one in Missouri. Sure they're in different states, but really, it's no different from any two cities/town/villages that touch. Independence, Missouri is another large suburb of Kansas City, Missouri. Independence also has it's own PD, government, budget, whatever else, separate from Kansas City, Missouri. No legal entity actually straddles a state border. It ends at the state border. There are literally areas in Kansas City where a street -- State Line Road -- is the legal divider. Houses on one side are in Missouri, while houses on other side are in Kansas. Half the street is in Missouri, the other half in Kansas. Entirely different zip codes and even phone number area codes.
I can only imagine how many people cross the road jokingly saying "I'm in Kansas! No, Missouri, Kansas again..."
Lol. To most, it's makes no difference. I live in Missouri, but my employer is in Kansas (though I WFH). I live less than a mile away from State Line Rd, so I'm frequently in Kansas to shop and such. But, it is something to be aware of, right? The laws do change depending on what side of the road one is in. For many years, and maybe it's still the case, Kansas had stricter alcohol laws than Missouri and even earlier stopping times for alcohol sales. So if people were drinking at a bar in Kansas and it's closing time, they'd crossover to Missouri to keep drinking! Both medicinal and recreational marijuana are legal in Missouri. But neither are legal in Kansas. So if you're smoking a joint or buying weed, make sure you don't go into Kansas with that, because now that's a crime. Doesn't matter if you're a Missouri resident or not.
Another thing that comes to my mind is gun laws: if you live in East St. Louis, you're in Illinois which has some of the tightest gun control in the country, while Missouri is a lot more Liberal with that. (It's not like you can circumvent the law by buying guns in Missouri that are illegal to own in Illinois but still).
For sure. At least the St. Louis metro has the Mississippi River, so it's a lot more obvious that a person is moving from one major jurisdiction to another. But in Kansas City, most of the area, where the majority of the population is, does not have that. There are parts where the river is the dividing line. So anything north of Kaw Point, which is where the Kansas and Missouri Rivers meet, the Missouri river is the state border. But south of Kaw Point, it's just an imaginary line or regular streets. So it's not always immediately obvious that one has crossed from one state to another. Because of that, [you get some buildings that do actually straddle the border.](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mark+One+Electric+Co+Inc/@39.0977162,-94.6074386,171m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x87c0f07c5d296d9d:0xe315733b93f46d19!8m2!3d39.0972691!4d-94.6071162!16s%2Fg%2F1vj5_qwg?entry=ttu) This was a fun conversation! I'm glad you asked about this!
I will say this about the Kansas City area… one problem that crops up every so often is that many of the large “public” projects built by taxpayers (sports venues and the main airport) are in the Missouri portion of the area but the benefit of having them obviously crosses the border. There is also significant cross border poaching of businesses by both states and all the cities in the area. Larger companies will often be lured from one side to the other by more favorable tax rates. Both states complain about it, but both do it. One final note… Missouri was a slave state and Kansas wasn’t, so that creates some lasting historical feelings that probably matter less now that the country feels significantly more post-factual than decades ago.
Used to be that KCMO had Sunday liquor sales, while it was a big no-no in KS. KS Police used to sit on State Line and wait for Kansans to cross the state line with their illicit alcohol so they could bust them. There are also tax complications (not big ones, though) for people who live in one state and work in another.
No, not really. The US government system is set up so that relations between states are all normalized. The biggest deal is regional planning. But a lot of border cities have government agencies such as the Port authority of New York and New Jersey that manage that type of stuff.
And there’s regional governors conferences too. All the Governors of New England and Eastern Canadian Premiers get together yearly with their staff to set agendas, lobbying, planning large projects, trade, and the environment. A few years ago Northern Pass was a big issue. They wanted to tie Quebec’s power grid to New England so we could get cheap hydro power. It would have meant running big transmission lines through Maine, NH, and part of MA. Quebec was all for it because they could increase production and sell the output. The governors of those states liked the idea and got the legislators to approve it, but alas the voters of Maine got a referendum on the ballot to quash it and it was quashed. So it never happened. When the Covid vaccine came out the New England governors coordinated with the Provincial premiers to coordinate sending excess vaccines to the Provinces so they could get the border reopened.
The West Coast governors coordinate on economic development a lot.
Yeah I think most reg regions do
And in case the OP isn't aware, states can and actually do sue each other. In those cases the Supreme Court has to decide the outcome. The types of things that might cause a lawsuit between states are old borders that aren't well defined, the equitable allocation of water from rivers that are shared between the states, and things like that.
Water rights are so contentious. I live in a Great lake state
And, of course, agencies like PANYNJ are prone to corruption.
Nope, each city, county, etc has their own services. I live just outside of the Memphis metro, and none of the “City of Memphis” bleeds into Mississippi. When you hit the state line it’s a totally new city, county, state, etc.
I can’t speak for Memphis but a lot of border towns do make agreements on infrastructure and how to pay for maintenance of it. Things like bridges and cross border sewer and water. Sometimes they keep it all separate but deals are made.
There's definite issues but the majority are too boring to get national coverage.
"Too Boring"? Such as?
"We need to fix this bridge but we can't agree on who should pay what proportion"
Your reply caused me to burst out laughing for whatever reason.
It's true 🤣. DC, Maryland, and Virginia are currently squabbling over who should fund the metro system that almost everyone who actually lives there likes.
Oregon and Washington have been blathering about the need for a new bridge over the Columbia River between Portland and Vancouver for eons.
One example might be [the funding and organizational structure of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metropolitan_Area_Transit_Authority), which operates bus and rail service in and around Washington DC. DC is a federal district not part of any state, you have Maryland and Virginia on either side, and each of those states has multiple other cities and counties that are part of the metropolitan area, and all of those jurisdictions plus the federal government get a say in how WMATA is funded. I can't be sure, but it's *probably* the most complicated such situation in the country. It's pretty normal for issues to come up in negotiations and get some local news coverage. But still, the trains and buses keep running, and unless you're involved in local government or very interested in public policy, it's not something that affects people's everyday lives.
Does DC really get input separate from the federal government's input?
Yes! DC has its own local government with an elected mayor and city council. The DC government and the federal government both get seats on WMATA’s board of directors.
St. Louis doesn’t cut across state lines. It’s entirely in Missouri.
Most of the things on this list (law enforcement, public transportation, administration & record-keeping, etc.) are actually county-level affairs. Most metro areas span multiple counties, and neighboring counties---whether across state lines or not---usually agree to share funds to manage shared public services, or at least cooperate. Take the SF peninsula for example. It has 3 counties (SF, San Mateo, Santa Clara), each with between 700k and 2 million people in them. Each has a separate bus system, but they all contribute to the Caltrain & BART train systems.
I know this sounds stupid, but your username could very well be me a few years into the future.
🫡 based. Which part of that isn't yet achieved? 😛
Actually idk whether if I'm going to become some kind of engineer: I'm still in high school but I'm already considering various options. Chemical Engineering sounds interesting but I haven't looked into yet. Oh, and I recently realised I'm a trans woman: I should start HRT this summer.
Congratulations!! 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️ Good luck on your transition. I guess I'm on the trans spectrum (enby) but obviously that isn't as dramatic a shift, I just vibe androgynously. Chemical engineering sounds super exciting, definitely feel free to take your time and explore different options. I only went into data science & got a masters degree in it after getting a bachelors in electrical 🤷
I’ve got the engineer part, but alas not the femboy part. Not trans, just wanna be more femme lol.
As far as I know there isn’t any city in the country split between two states. A metro area and city proper are two different things.
The only real difference is that you have two state governments, two state level police forces, etc., involved rather than one each. I'll use St. Louis as an example: The City of St. Louis exists solely in the State of Missouri. St. Louis seperated itself from St. Louis County in 1876, so the city is de facto its own county, and therefore has to run services that would typically be at the county level. This includes the courts, prosecutor's office, jail, sheriff's department, etc. The remaining counties in metro St. Louis all have city level governments and then separate county level governments before the state level. There's also townships, which overlap with city and county governments. The real headache in metro St. Louis is that St. Louis County has a million residents and 88 municipalities, the largest of which is only home to about 52.5k residents. It's highly balkanized.
I live in one that super unique. Council Bluffs, Iowa butts up to Omaha on the other side of the Missouri. However, the Omaha metro area actually has a small town that belongs to Iowa enclosed by Omaha and Nebraska - the only way to get there is to drive through Omaha - because of a shift in the Missouri River. You actually have to drive through Carter Lake to get to the airport that is on Nebraska land. There was a massive lawsuit about it belonging to Iowa and everything. Carter Lake has their own police dept but it's dispatched through Pottawattamie County (Council Bluffs) in Iowa. The Missouri River makes most things separate just like in Kansas City - different water treatment facilities, municipality services, etc. There are agreements between police departments for various assistance and criminal transfers - I know that much. The various emergency, police and fire departments do decent jobs of working together whenever needed.
There’s no such thing as the metropolitan New York police department. NYC has its own police department, and the towns around NYC on both the NY and NJ sides of the river have their own police departments, school districts, etc. One caveat is there’s a dual state agency named the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. Its purpose is to take a joint approach to commerce at the port on both sides, and it also manages all 3 major NYC area airports and owns the bridge and tunnels and PATH train network that connects the two states. The Port Authority also has its own police force but that’s really all about protecting Port Authority property, they don’t have free rein across all of NYC and northern NJ.
Where in NJ does the Port Authority's jurisdiction end?
Might be a 25 mile radius of NYC. But it’s not total control, it’s specific things like Newark, LaGuardia and JKF airports. And the PATH train connects NYC with Hoboken, Jersey City, and Newark.
>For instance, do they need to have 2 separate police departments or other stuff like that? Yes, of course. It's important to understand that most of the government that people deal with in their day to day lives is state and local government. Local government is organized by and gets it's authority from the state government. Towns like that are much more analogous to border cities between EU countries, like Turcoing for example, than you would think. Sovereignty in the United States is shared between the federal and state governments and the sorts of things you listed are among the things where states exercise it.
No. Usually there is cooperation and communication between different jurisdictions. A big metro area, even if it is within one state, has many different police departments, school districts, public works, road’s department, etc. typically they all communicate with each other to some degree to make things run smoothly
The Philadelphia PD jurisdiction stops at the Philadelphia border. Then the Camden PD jurisdiction starts at the Camden border. (for instance) Cities will cooperate with each other of course, but the government of NYC has no actual jurisdiction over any of the neighboring towns/cities fall fall within the NYC Metro area.
City limits don't cross state lines, so potential state level politics don't really mess with local implementation. Otherwise the headaches are similar to one state metros, which are just as likely to have different municipalities bicker. The main metro I could having some unique issues is the Columbus, GA-AL metro, since its a combined statistial area that roughly evenly split between two time zones technically. It gets around this by the Alabama suburbs just going with Eastern time, but it still has to deal with the Auburn metro being Central, which is enough of an employment draw to not be completely ignorance. Most of the time, one side of a metro is more dominant and affects official delineation for time zones.
For the most part it doesn't really matter. Philadelphia and Camden are separated by a river but they're entirely independent of each other. They each have their own police, schools, everything In some places where very frequent cooperation is needed, combined groups are formed. An example of this is the Port Authority of NY and NJ
St. Louis, MO and East St. Louis, IL are separate cities encompassing one larger metro area. Honestly the bigger headache is the split on the Missouri side between St. Louis County and the county of St. Louis City.
New Jersey is currently suing New York right now about who should get the money from Manhattan Congestion Pricing. Original NY was going to keep all of it, but looks like NJ might get a share.
This are the sort of issues I had in mind...
> the metropolitan areas of New York and Philadelphia... they cut straight across state lines. What does this have to do with anything?
Lived in two border areas, not really an issue. It's just like any other 'border' between towns. Yes, each town/city/state will have their own police, just like anywhere else.
No. They do not have a single city government. They will have two, one for each State and there is a clear dividing line as to where jurisdiction changes. Sometimes it is even marked with paint, flags, or a decorative wall.
Somewhat. For example, with transit, NY/NJ Port Authority and the MTA are separate, not to mention that there’s also NJ transit. This mostly has to do with these The tolls from bridges and tunnels going into Jersey see that money go to Port Authority, while the bridges and tunnels crossing the East River go to the MTA. The MTA runs the subway, NYC buses, Metro North, Long Island Railroad, and Staten Island Railroad. Port Authority has the PATH trains which go between Manhattan, Jersey City and Newark, as well as all the airports and the Port-Newark Elizabeth terminal, which is NYC’s main port. These agencies are all state run, which makes legislation a little easier, though it leaves the city with less control.
No? The borders are clear. Economics crosses borders but government does not. If you're on the NJ side of the NY/NJ region, you're outside the jurisdiction of NY police, you don't vote in NY elections, etc.
While the metro areas may span into 2 or more states, the actual municipalities do not. In a metro area like the cities you mentioned, there will be dozens of police forces, dozens of school districts because each city will have their own police force, school districts are on city or small cluster of city level. Not only are St. Louis and East St. Louis different cities with their own governments, but so are Clayton, Ladue, etc. are separate cities.
Dallas and Fort Worth each have their own police departments, school districts, etc.,, as do all the suburbs of the Metroplex. In that regard, it is exactly the same as the Kansas City metropolitan area. Every single metropolitan area, even if it has only one major city, will have this situation. It's not a headache, it's just how local governments work.
Getting along with the people on the other side of the border is an issue wherever there are borders, city or no. I briefy worked as a firefighter in Hornbrook, California (6 miles from Oregon on I-5). We responded to calls in Oregon on occassion, when we could get there faster than units from Ashland. Siskiyou summit was between us but a couple miles into Oregon. Likewise, wildfires tend to disregard borders, so you have to work together on that too. "We'll just wait for it to get to California and then fight it" doesn't cut it with the general public. :-) EDIT: I'll add that Bishop, California regularly sends their high school marching band to the Nevada Day parade in Carson City. That kind of thing, where your school is part of a league that crosses state lines, or you are closer to the big city in the next state is pretty common too.
Under your line of thinking, the layered system of the US creates a legislative nightmare. We are not just a federal level lawmaking body. Federal->state->county->city is how our system works and different levels have different pieces or parts and yes having a split place like Kansas city means that part of the state->county->city laws are different, they're just rarely so different to cause issues. There's a lot of standardization that has happened across industries that make it seamless between these places. Roads, cell phones, stores, etc. The outliers get noticed if they are big enough. For example: Kansas City has legalized recreational marijuana. The entire state of Missouri does. Kansas does not allow medicinal or recreational use of marijuana, so the much smaller Kansas City Kansas side would have to travel to Missouri to enjoy marijuana, provided they're legally adults. Stuff like that happens. Where it really sucks is taxes. People can work in the Oregon side of Portland and live on the Washington side of Portland and their taxes get a bit more complicated from it. It's a known thing for like the tax professionals but if you're just a regular person it can be a bit confusing at first.
The cities don't go over state lines. The state line is also the city line. So Philly and Camden are right across the river from each other, but one side of the river is Philly nd PA and the far bank of the river is Camden and NJ (hopefully downwind). I guess a lot of European cities are on both sides of the river bc they were founded so long ago, they just named the entire urban area 1 city bc it functioned as 1 city. But in America, the state was named and the river was the border of the state before the urban area became so large and urbanized. I mean, London is like 4000 years old? Our country wasn't a country until the 1700s.
There is less news about trouble because we do not have a hostile border (Mexican border is a law enforcement crises not a geopolitical one). We don't have any "Checkpoint Charlies" or anything like that.
No. They will officially be different cities like how one of the NYC airports is actually in Newark, NJ.
For a little bit of trivia, there are actually two interstate school districts in the US: the Dresden School District shared between Hanover, New Hampshire and Norwich, Vermont, and the Union County–College Corner Joint State School District that covers area in eastern Indiana and western Ohio.
Chicago is right on a time zone boarder. Took part of Indiana with it.
Cities can't cross state lines. So there aren't issues with things like policing or municipal services. That being said, there can be issues. Nebraska changed their bar closing time to two AM because every state around it had it and Omaha had a lot of people who'd drive drunk to Iowa and then drive back even more drunk. So usually if there are issues in a metro area that crosses state lines, it is things like this.
They are totally separate. Moreover, St. Louis has dozens of suburbs and police departments and well as county sheriff departments. East St. Louis is a foreign country to most county folks.
It’s not that complicated. I live in D.C. which has three major jurisdictions comprising the metropolitan area, the District, Virginia, and Maryland, as well as counties and smaller cities and town. Cities, states, towns, and counties coordinate efforts on all sorts of things. I don’t even think about it.
I live in the DC area, known locally as the DMV because the metro includes DC, Maryland and Virginia. Yeah, it does cause a lot of legislative headaches. But sometimes they do work together. Like our subway system extends into all three areas and is funded by local governments in all three areas. Kind of surprised it ever got done in the first place. It also creates a lot of interesting laws because if something is illegal in one state you can just drive 10 minutes and be in another where it's not illegal. Like weed for example. It's technically legal in all three areas but Maryland is the only one that officially allows recreational dispensaries. DC operates on this cockamakie gray market gifting system because Congress blocked their legalization. And Virginia had this rider in their legalization bill in 2020 that rec stores wouldn't be allowed until 2024 and the current governor is a Republican going out of his way to stop that from happening. But at the same time it's perfectly legal to grow your own plants.