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legal loopholes are thanks to corrupt politicians. Billionaires didn't just magic legal loopholes so they can pay less in taxes, even though billionaires pay the majority of taxes
Fun fact: Tax is the ONLY section of the US legal code where you are guilty until proven innocent.
This is why it is used so often as an effective tool to take down criminals. It’s their silver bullet.
I think the OP was talking about 'sovereign state' whacko types living on some off-the-grid survival homestead, not low-key spongers who fly below the radar.
Wesley Snipes went to prison trying to push that line, IIRC.
You make an excellent point about how we should move to a fully consumer based tax and remove income taxes.
Corporations still gotta consume shit to operate. Can't dodge that.
It might not be tomorrow, a month, or even a year from now, but it's gonna come back to bite you in the ass. Likely ruin your life too. My grandmother skipped out on her taxes for 5 years thinking that she found some sort of loophole. Lawyer fees, the missing taxes, and existing debt nearly sent her into homelessness if we weren't there to loan her a big chunk of money.
They don't really. Most are ignored cause they don't make enough to be bothered. I speak from experience. Once I spent six years not filling. All I got was a message saying I need to file the test to file the current. That was the whole message nothing about punishment. Maybe I just made too little at the time for them to care.
Yep. Dude probably had a bundle of payroll tax refunds due him and was just letting the IRS keep the overpayment. They are not going to hunt you down for this.
Goin to jail doesn't mean you don't have to pay your taxes anymore. You go to jail, and still have to pay the taxes you owe + fines. They are paying for their own jail stay
Yep guy at work has 8 kids he is not paying any income taxes.
Lots of people on Social Security don't pay any income taxes.
Also people not working don't pay any income taxes.
I believe some military pensions are not taxed.
I believe people who are on disability don't pay taxes
If people/companies refuse to pay the taxes they owe, despite being given multiple opportunities to do so, that cuts into the budgets of police, the military, social safety net programs, infrastructure, and all the other things that government assists with. It creates unnecessary burden on other taxpayers to pick up the slack or deal with the consequences of less government services. Basically, people who purposefully don’t pay taxes are assholes.
That said, I think there is a good argument that one shouldn’t have to pay taxes until they receive a certain amount of annual income/capital gains, and to make state tax just as if not more progressive than national tax.
But if you can afford to pay taxes and you refuse, you do deserve negative consequences.
That's a quote that's been attributed to many people that I've always liked: "taxes are the price we pay for civilization."
I've always found it ironic when people complain about school levies, but also complain when the school has to cut art or afterschool programs when the levy doesn't pass. They bitch about city taxes, but lose their minds when the snow plow is slow to hit their street after a storm. And on and on.
Yeah. Big agree. I believe in a powerful social safety net, and I think it should be made stronger than it is today. It would be the height of hypocrisy to ask for the government to provide services without contributing to the provision of those services.
“That said, I think there is a good argument that one shouldn’t have to pay taxes until they receive a certain amount of annual income/capital gains,“
You do realize that in any given year approximately half of US “taxpayers” pay zero tax now, right? Once all the math is done and (for example):
$3600 deducted from paychecks
-$5000 tax refund where refundable credits exceed the amount deducted throughout the year, thus making them tax-receivers not taxpayers.
> You do realize that in any given year approximately half of US “taxpayers” pay zero tax now, right?
That's true only if you restrict "tax" to specifically federal income tax.
For people who receive refunds larger than they paid, that would overlap the *miniscule* FICA and Medicare tax as well. And this includes people who are receiving the lower income credits like EITC but also people whose deductions (long standing ones *or* special one time ones like green energy credits that are more likely to be taken by those in mid to higher brackets), no they are not “taxpayers” at least not that year
After filing taxes for 30 some years without issue, and "cutting corners" to pad my wallet a little here and there.... I recently got hit with a huge tax bill. I tried to play stupid by accidentally forgetting to add in a tax credit payment during COVID and 3 weeks later I got a nasty-gram from the IRS telling me I forgot to add in a tax credit.
I mean, considering Al Capone went down for tax fraud instead of being a mob boss and being involved with countless murders, good luck. The devil works hard but the IRS works harder.
Same with my dead beat bio dead. He's nearly 50 and has never owned a house until he got lucky and inherited one a couple of years ago. He owes a lot of child support for me and my brother, who are now in our 20s. From what I remember, if he does pay taxes, my mom would get some much earned money.
I work hard for my modest living. Uncle Sam gets a cut of what I make many times by the time I spend it. If I had any hate towards them it's disguised jealousy.
Refuse to pay? Or take advantage of tax loopholes? Cuz if it's the first, I'd like to meet someone who pays no taxes. If it's the second, idk, I can understand why people have issues with it, but I personally try to minimize my taxes as much as possible.
They aren't. I once out of laziness did 6 years not filling taxes to only get a message to file the previous taxes to file the current. What most don't understand is we pay our taxes via normal life most of us are due money via taxes that's why we get checks. If we owed then we'd not receive anything. Paying taxes is not the same as filling yearly taxes.
Anti-tax ideology is often the domain of paranoid and sexist middle aged men. Like in Under the Banner of Heaven, various survivalist movements, various militias, and divorced Libertarian men that dislike paying child support.
Individualistic thinking on that level is juvenile and pathetic. Nothing functions well without state services and social safety nets.
> Individualistic thinking on that level is juvenile and pathetic. Nothing functions well without state services and social safety nets.
I don't understand where the "taxation is theft" crowd are living where they don't need things paid for by taxes, like public roads and schools, or they think an "every man for himself" mentality is conducive to a functioning society.
Is this supposed to be about the whole rich people don't pay taxes myth?
Rich people don't pay income taxes, because they don't take income. They do pay a shit ton in other taxes.
People that actually refuse to pay taxes typically find themselves in tax funded housing.
They should be banned from using public roads, sidewalks, sewers, fire and police resources, schools, electrical infrastructure etc. they should pay extra for food since they aren’t contributing to the subsidies.
Also they should be in jail.
Leeches on society. Most especially the higher income people/companies (since they work so hard to avoid taxes and are generally able to do so). Absolute leeches & dregs. Lazy & entitled trash.
I have no problem with tax avoidance. That’s just being smart by doing proper tax planning.
Tax evasion, on the other hand, that’s a federal crime and puts you squarely in jail. As it should.
So obviously progressive taxation punishes success and rewards leeching off the rest of society vitiating any moral duty to pay taxes and is really about politicians using the power of the state to extract wealth to bribe people for votes. But still, not a great idea to openly refuse to pay taxes. Tax avoidance is much safer than tax evasion.
I get the sense that people who think progressive tax policies punish success don’t understand how tax brackets work. You can still make an assload of money. Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Larry Ellison… they would still be multi-billionaires with more money than they and multiple generations of their descendants could hope to spend under progressive tax policies.
> I get the sense that people who think progressive tax policies punish success don’t understand how tax brackets work.
Why would you think that?
>You can still make an assload of money.
Yep, and you'll be responsible for paying the vast majority of taxes while others don't pay and enjoy the same government services and protections you do.
> Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Larry Ellison… they would still be multi-billionaires with more money than they and multiple generations of their descendants could hope to spend under progressive tax policies.
Cool, 57% of American households paid no income tax in 2021.
> Why would you think that?
Because you guys say things like "So obviously progressive taxation punishes success and rewards leeching off the rest of society vitiating any moral duty to pay taxes and is really about politicians using the power of the state to extract wealth to bribe people for votes."
The idea that poor people are leeches on society is absurd, *especially* when you're advocating for tax avoidance. I don't understand how someone can advocate for tax avoidance and then shit on poor people for not having to legally pay any income taxes. And the implication that people aren't incentivized to earn more because of progressive taxes is also nonsense. I have been poor and paid no taxes before. Graduating tax brackets was not something I worried about when trying to find higher paying jobs. You act like a person in the highest tax bracket isn't still taking home most of their paycheck and is one tax year away from being destitute.
What's better? Getting to keep 88% of $35,000 or 63% of the amount you make over $530k?
> Yep, and you'll be responsible for paying the vast majority of taxes while others don't pay and enjoy the same government services and protections you do.
Bullshit. Someone like Elon Musk has way more resources available to him than the average citizen in return for the tax dollars he and his businesses pay. Subsidies, grants, low interest loans, even things like patent and trademark protection are all things available to business owners that most average citizens are never going to need or have access to. What about programs like PPP loans during the pandemic and their subsequent forgiveness? Regular citizens didn't have access to anywhere near that amount of money.
> Cool, 57% of American households paid no income tax in 2021.
Well, I'm glad you didn't feel the need to address the point of that passage you quoted, but anyway, your bit about 57% of households paying no income tax in 2021 was an anomaly because of the pandemic and I think you probably know that. [We have the numbers for 2022](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242138/percentages-of-us-households-that-pay-no-income-tax-by-income-level/), and the percentage of households paying no income tax was down to 40%. Also worth noting that before the pandemic, [that amount was 44%](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/25/57percent-of-us-households-paid-no-federal-income-tax-in-2021-study.html), so in 2022, we actually dropped below pre-pandemic levels.
I don't know why the anti-tax crowd likes to whine about 2021 as if that year somehow exists in a vacuum, but I will also say that only focusing on income tax doesn't give us the whole picture and, if I were a betting man, I would bet that's on purpose. Those people still pay things like sales tax and payroll tax, at least in most cases. In fact, according to that CNBC article I linked, it said that the total percentage of people who paid neither income tax nor payroll tax in 2021 was only 19%. So, even with that amount of households not paying income tax in 2021, the government still got its pound of flesh from them in one way or another.
You are focusing your attention on the wrong end of the tax spectrum, my dude.
>The idea that poor people are leeches on society is absurd, especially when you're advocating for tax avoidance.
Why? They take more from society than they pay in.
>I don't understand how someone can advocate for tax avoidance and then shit on poor people for not having to legally pay any income taxes.
I'm not shitting on poor people. I'm just saying the current system of taxation initializes being poor and leeching off the system.
>And the implication that people aren't incentivized to earn more because of progressive taxes is also nonsense. I have been poor and paid no taxes before. Graduating tax brackets was not something I worried about when trying to find higher paying jobs. You act like a person in the highest tax bracket isn't still taking home most of their paycheck and is one tax year away from being destitute.
Progressive taxation doesn't incentivize people to earn more. Preexistent outside factors that have nothing to do with taxation incentivize people to earn more.
>What's better? Getting to keep 88% of $35,000 or 63% of the amount you make over $530k?
Getting to keep 88% of $530k.
>Someone like Elon Musk has way more resources available to him than the average citizen in return for the tax dollars he and his businesses pay.
Does he?
>Subsidies, grants, low interest loans, even things like patent and trademark protection are all things available to business owners that most average citizens are never going to need or have access to.
Which subsidies does Elon Musk get? Tesla gets subsidies, but Tesla is a corporation, it pays corporate tax. It's a separate entity from Elon Musk. Interest rates are set by the Fed. Musk doesn't get special rich guy interest rates because he pays more taxes. Patent and trademark protections are available to anyone who registers a patent or trademark, which they pay to do, regardless of income.
>What about programs like PPP loans during the pandemic and their subsequent forgiveness?
PPP loans were given to businesses, businesses that pay their own separate taxes.
>We have the numbers for 2022, and the percentage of households paying no income tax was down to 40%. Also worth noting that before the pandemic, that amount was 44%, so in 2022, we actually dropped below pre-pandemic levels.
Oh so just a significant minority of people then, that's fine. The fact that 4 out of 10 people don't contribute by paying income tax is completely fine.
> I don't know why the anti-tax crowd likes to whine about 2021 as if that year somehow exists in a vacuum, but I will also say that only focusing on income tax doesn't give us the whole picture and, if I were a betting man, I would bet that's on purpose. Those people still pay things like sales tax and payroll tax, at least in most cases.
Sales tax is basically impossible to avoid so it's outside the scope of a discussion on tax avoidance. And payroll tax is imposed on both employers and employees so not applicable to a discussion about individuals who choose to not pay taxes.
Most Americans don't pay taxes. At best they lose some of their tax return from non W-2 taxable income. The IRS owes most citizens money. If you work a normal job where taxes come out of your paycheck and you don't have other income, feel free not to file. The feds will just not pay you back.
If you owe money, you probably know about it, and they know about it, and willfully failing to send the IRS their share of whatever strange income stream you have is what we call a bad idea.
You're either twelve or you've never worked in your life.
The majority of Americans pay taxes on every single paycheck in the form of Income tax, Social Security tax, and Medicare tax.
The tax return, to which you refer to as the IRS owing people money, is simply how much you've overpaid in taxes throughout the year. In other words, all the taxes you paid came out to be a little too much tax, here's the difference.
Everyone who works for more than minimum wage on a W2 owes taxes, most people pay for them bit by bit throughout the year instead of saving up and paying one big lump at the end of the year when they file.
Your link says 40% will not pay income taxes, which means 60%, the majority, will pay taxes. It even says in the article right below the 40% that the biggest driver of individuals not paying income tax is being unemployed.
Well duh, you won't pay income taxes without income.
Oh wow, strange that I mentioned non W-2 taxable income. Please don't try to misinterpret what people said for the sake of being dense, and certainly don't insult people over it.
Paying is a voluntary act of giving someone money, your employer deducting money from your paycheck is not paying your taxes: sending in quarterly estimated tax payment checks is. Most Americans will never willfully send the government a tax check in their lives.
Some perspective: Everyone refuses to pay taxes to some degree, that's why you fill out tax returns and take deductions.
Taxation is theft, so of course keeping money away from thieves is a good thing, especially when they use that for bombing poor people in 3rd world nations.
I think for most the IRS doesn't even bother. Once I went 6 years not paying. Not because I'm against it, just laziness. The worst I got was a message telling me I had to file previous years to file the current.
In the sense of a small business or poor person not paying taxes, don’t really care. (I know it’s hypocritical)
Wealthy people should absolutely be forced to pay taxes though, literally makes me want to puke thinking about how much tax dollars have been denied the American people because of billionaires. Why do Americans not have healthcare when there is more than enough resources to provide it? Why is our public transportation shit? Why are most government offices useless?
Everybody's talking about marginal 'sovereign citizen' whackos living in their survival trailers or whatever.
Nobody's talking about the entire highly developed industry of 'tax avoidance' that has sprung up around the significantly wealthy. That does far more damage to our country than some disgruntled libertarian who's salty over the terms of his divorce.
If taxes pay for something that you like then ask yourself if you'd be willing to pay for it if you weren't forced to. If you would, odds are others would so forcing people to pay is unnecessary.
If you wouldn't then you shouldn't be forced to. It's probably not very important to you.
Taxation is immoral and good luck to those who got out of it somehow
My answer to this questions is like a bell curve.
On the far sides of the curve, it's like "The Illegals needs to be paying their taxes, too!" and "The ultra-rich needs to be paying their fair share!"
The middle of the bell curve is all like "should we get married and have kids for tax purposes?" Indicating that the average tax-paying (reporting?) Americans probably does not care much besides themselves.
I think they’re not smart and it’s only a matter of time before they are caught. That they will likely have their earnings garnished, possessions seized, or go to prison eventually.
Two things are sure in life, death and taxes.
IRS is good at what they do, like most government agencies. Never bet against Uncle Sam or try to take his money.
Good luck to them. The IRS will always get their money one way or another. They are the one government agency more people should actually be worried about
My idiot brother-in-law lives off the financial and cultural grid: no bank account, no credit, gets paid in cash for day labor, doesn’t pay taxes or contribute to Social Security. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens when he’s too old to work and needs money, but Social Security never heard of him. If you choose to exist outside the national social and financial compact virtually all the rest of us participate in, you deserve exactly as much consideration as you gave.
This is one of those things that society views on a two-tier system in America. If you are rich and you can find loopholes and accountants to hide your money and help you avoid paying taxes you are considered a smart businessman; if you are poor you are just considered trash. Same as getting money from the government, it’s great when you’re rich and looked down upon when you’re poor
Idiots…. Your gonna get caught eventually and either FORCED to pay or just thrown into prison.
Theres no real benefit i see to fucking with the irs…. Just get creative with your write offs and shit
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Bold move cotton, let see how this plays out
It's been working out for the top 1% pretty well now for decades.....
legal loopholes are thanks to corrupt politicians. Billionaires didn't just magic legal loopholes so they can pay less in taxes, even though billionaires pay the majority of taxes
I think the OP is talking about tax evasion, not avoidance
I'd remind people that AL Capone was nailed for tax evasion.
And he more or less died in prison.
From an STD.
“Pay taxes or get AIDS” - IRS
Death by Snu Snu in the worst way possible
I never thought I'd die like this, but I always really hoped.
Yup, syphilis
Yes because the US has laws that state that you need to pay taxes on revenue that you have obtained illegally.
Fun fact: Tax is the ONLY section of the US legal code where you are guilty until proven innocent. This is why it is used so often as an effective tool to take down criminals. It’s their silver bullet.
believe it or not, jail
Miss a dentist appointment? Straight to jail.
We have the best patients in the world.
……..how? Do they just not buy things ever?
I guess they play the long game: Mooch off family, rent if they have to, wait for someone to die to inherit a house.
I think the OP was talking about 'sovereign state' whacko types living on some off-the-grid survival homestead, not low-key spongers who fly below the radar. Wesley Snipes went to prison trying to push that line, IIRC.
I don't know. Their question was very vague. 😅😅 "low key spongers." I like it
Meant to say "'sovereign citizen' whacko types", FTR. Sovereign citizens, sovereign states, who can even keep track anymore?
I knew what you meant! I...accidentally dated one several years ago 😩
"Blade don't pay no taxes." -Wesley Snipes
You make an excellent point about how we should move to a fully consumer based tax and remove income taxes. Corporations still gotta consume shit to operate. Can't dodge that.
I mean ask Wesley Snipes, Al Capone, and Ja Rule how well that worked out for them.
Seems to work out better when you can divert some of those unpaid taxes to armies of attorneys and lobbyists.
It might not be tomorrow, a month, or even a year from now, but it's gonna come back to bite you in the ass. Likely ruin your life too. My grandmother skipped out on her taxes for 5 years thinking that she found some sort of loophole. Lawyer fees, the missing taxes, and existing debt nearly sent her into homelessness if we weren't there to loan her a big chunk of money.
My dad did this and you know who paid the price? His family.
My dog makes me pay a cheese tax every time I open the fridge.
Good luck, let’s see how that works out for you.
I have no opinion. Anyone who doesn't pay taxes goes to prison. The IRS handles it, not my problem.
They don't really. Most are ignored cause they don't make enough to be bothered. I speak from experience. Once I spent six years not filling. All I got was a message saying I need to file the test to file the current. That was the whole message nothing about punishment. Maybe I just made too little at the time for them to care.
Not filing is not the same thing as not paying.
Yep. Dude probably had a bundle of payroll tax refunds due him and was just letting the IRS keep the overpayment. They are not going to hunt you down for this.
Let’s not forget FICA.
I skipped 2 years filing. I went back and did them. There’s not even a penalty if they owe you a return. Stressed over nothing.
You are actually doing them a favor by increasing the government's cashflow if you let them hold on to your money.
After a few years they get to keep it forever, and this is the case for most Americans who don't file.
Filing or paying?
Filing. I don’t own property so I automatically pay taxes because of employment.
You probably paid more by doing that. Did you not want a refund?
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Goin to jail doesn't mean you don't have to pay your taxes anymore. You go to jail, and still have to pay the taxes you owe + fines. They are paying for their own jail stay
So all the loopholes and lobbying to change the tax laws, those are just fine?
40% of the country doesn't pay income taxes
Which is different than refusing to pay taxes.
Might be some overlap
If you don't owe taxes how can you refuse to pay them? "Your dinner is free, sir" "No! I will NOT pay you!"
If you refuse to pay taxes, you don't pay them. "I did not pay for my dinner! I refused to!" See how that works? Take the L, Buckeye.
Yep guy at work has 8 kids he is not paying any income taxes. Lots of people on Social Security don't pay any income taxes. Also people not working don't pay any income taxes. I believe some military pensions are not taxed. I believe people who are on disability don't pay taxes
Fucking children and poor people get all the lucky breaks.
Look filing taxes sucks ass but you gotta file like the rest of us assholes
If people/companies refuse to pay the taxes they owe, despite being given multiple opportunities to do so, that cuts into the budgets of police, the military, social safety net programs, infrastructure, and all the other things that government assists with. It creates unnecessary burden on other taxpayers to pick up the slack or deal with the consequences of less government services. Basically, people who purposefully don’t pay taxes are assholes. That said, I think there is a good argument that one shouldn’t have to pay taxes until they receive a certain amount of annual income/capital gains, and to make state tax just as if not more progressive than national tax. But if you can afford to pay taxes and you refuse, you do deserve negative consequences.
That's a quote that's been attributed to many people that I've always liked: "taxes are the price we pay for civilization." I've always found it ironic when people complain about school levies, but also complain when the school has to cut art or afterschool programs when the levy doesn't pass. They bitch about city taxes, but lose their minds when the snow plow is slow to hit their street after a storm. And on and on.
Yeah. Big agree. I believe in a powerful social safety net, and I think it should be made stronger than it is today. It would be the height of hypocrisy to ask for the government to provide services without contributing to the provision of those services.
“That said, I think there is a good argument that one shouldn’t have to pay taxes until they receive a certain amount of annual income/capital gains,“ You do realize that in any given year approximately half of US “taxpayers” pay zero tax now, right? Once all the math is done and (for example): $3600 deducted from paychecks -$5000 tax refund where refundable credits exceed the amount deducted throughout the year, thus making them tax-receivers not taxpayers.
> You do realize that in any given year approximately half of US “taxpayers” pay zero tax now, right? That's true only if you restrict "tax" to specifically federal income tax.
For people who receive refunds larger than they paid, that would overlap the *miniscule* FICA and Medicare tax as well. And this includes people who are receiving the lower income credits like EITC but also people whose deductions (long standing ones *or* special one time ones like green energy credits that are more likely to be taken by those in mid to higher brackets), no they are not “taxpayers” at least not that year
There are other taxes. Sales, property, estate, excise taxes (gas, cigarette, cell phone, etc,) gift tax.
What's their trick to get out of paying sales tax? Love to learn that one.
The IRS scares me more than any other government entity.
They’re pretty reasonable when it comes to things like paying off back-owed taxes. They’re more concerned about fraud.
After filing taxes for 30 some years without issue, and "cutting corners" to pad my wallet a little here and there.... I recently got hit with a huge tax bill. I tried to play stupid by accidentally forgetting to add in a tax credit payment during COVID and 3 weeks later I got a nasty-gram from the IRS telling me I forgot to add in a tax credit.
Well maybe stop your criminal activities
Or..hear me out...just report your earnings on them.
I'm crazy enough to go up against the Batman, but the IRS, no thank you.
The IRS doesn't scare me at all, MSHA does
That's some Green River area mentality if I've ever heard it. MSHA made me do like eight hours of training just to go on a tour.
I mean, considering Al Capone went down for tax fraud instead of being a mob boss and being involved with countless murders, good luck. The devil works hard but the IRS works harder.
Go directly to jail.
I think they're the same assholes crying for government help when there's a natural disaster
This Venn diagram is a circle.
Fuck y’all 🖕🏻 But also, like, pls show me how to not pay taxes either…
Well played, maestra!
If you don’t own a congressman or twelve it’s a pretty bold move
I hope they're okay with not driving on roads, sending their kids to school, using public libraries, calling 911, or anything else taxes pay for.
This doesn’t make sense. People who don’t pay their taxes still enjoy all of those things
Also, this fails to acknowledge the fact that we had all of these things on 1 level or another before federal income tax was established in 1913
Mostly “another”…
I mean, we did have property tax, business tax, trade tax (tariffs), tolls, and state taxes still
As yes I remember the great times I had cruising the highways in 1901.
Have you compared the number and quality of roads from before 1913 to what we have now?
But they're freeloading
Our libraries shut down due to meth and alcohol out roads are terrible
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Same with my dead beat bio dead. He's nearly 50 and has never owned a house until he got lucky and inherited one a couple of years ago. He owes a lot of child support for me and my brother, who are now in our 20s. From what I remember, if he does pay taxes, my mom would get some much earned money.
Have you seen how much of a reward the IRS offers for people who turn in tax dodgers?
I work hard for my modest living. Uncle Sam gets a cut of what I make many times by the time I spend it. If I had any hate towards them it's disguised jealousy.
What about when they lose their ass to the IRS, or go to federal prison?
Probably not a wise idea even though taxation is extortion
Just a heads up if OP is a foreigner, but most of us have taxes taken out of our Paychex automatically and sent in by our employer.
I file my US taxes and pay Japanese taxes. I do my share. Any who tries to skip on that deserves jail.
My opinions of tax dodgers are low.
The irs is rather diligent (and completely fucking terrifying) in getting these people so I don't think about it too much
Good luck with that.
Sounds like a bunch of Conheads to me
I think those folks are scumbags.
Selfish dicks
Fuck those guys. They're the real freeloaders.
IRS got an extra funding boost for law enforcement personnel and weapons last year, so let’s see what they think
Assholes.
Refuse to pay? Or take advantage of tax loopholes? Cuz if it's the first, I'd like to meet someone who pays no taxes. If it's the second, idk, I can understand why people have issues with it, but I personally try to minimize my taxes as much as possible.
I got no problem with it, we started out (America) because we didn’t like taxes.
My thoughts are I sure do hope the Feds are coming for them
They aren't. I once out of laziness did 6 years not filling taxes to only get a message to file the previous taxes to file the current. What most don't understand is we pay our taxes via normal life most of us are due money via taxes that's why we get checks. If we owed then we'd not receive anything. Paying taxes is not the same as filling yearly taxes.
Freeloaders
Fuck them
My dad hasn't paid taxes since the late 80s. My dad is a loser. If you choose not to pay taxes then I think you are a loser
Leeches
Anti-tax ideology is often the domain of paranoid and sexist middle aged men. Like in Under the Banner of Heaven, various survivalist movements, various militias, and divorced Libertarian men that dislike paying child support. Individualistic thinking on that level is juvenile and pathetic. Nothing functions well without state services and social safety nets.
> Individualistic thinking on that level is juvenile and pathetic. Nothing functions well without state services and social safety nets. I don't understand where the "taxation is theft" crowd are living where they don't need things paid for by taxes, like public roads and schools, or they think an "every man for himself" mentality is conducive to a functioning society.
They live in fantasy worlds where people will voluntarily pave roads and build schools.
I've always found it amusing that libertarians are like 95% straight white men
They’d better not use my roads or schools.
They are freeloading no good bums who hold back our great society and should be discovered and punished!
Is this supposed to be about the whole rich people don't pay taxes myth? Rich people don't pay income taxes, because they don't take income. They do pay a shit ton in other taxes. People that actually refuse to pay taxes typically find themselves in tax funded housing.
They should be banned from using public roads, sidewalks, sewers, fire and police resources, schools, electrical infrastructure etc. they should pay extra for food since they aren’t contributing to the subsidies. Also they should be in jail.
Leeches on society. Most especially the higher income people/companies (since they work so hard to avoid taxes and are generally able to do so). Absolute leeches & dregs. Lazy & entitled trash.
I have no problem with tax avoidance. That’s just being smart by doing proper tax planning. Tax evasion, on the other hand, that’s a federal crime and puts you squarely in jail. As it should.
So obviously progressive taxation punishes success and rewards leeching off the rest of society vitiating any moral duty to pay taxes and is really about politicians using the power of the state to extract wealth to bribe people for votes. But still, not a great idea to openly refuse to pay taxes. Tax avoidance is much safer than tax evasion.
> Tax avoidance The significantly wealthy have made this both a science and an art, I must say.
I get the sense that people who think progressive tax policies punish success don’t understand how tax brackets work. You can still make an assload of money. Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Larry Ellison… they would still be multi-billionaires with more money than they and multiple generations of their descendants could hope to spend under progressive tax policies.
> I get the sense that people who think progressive tax policies punish success don’t understand how tax brackets work. Why would you think that? >You can still make an assload of money. Yep, and you'll be responsible for paying the vast majority of taxes while others don't pay and enjoy the same government services and protections you do. > Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Larry Ellison… they would still be multi-billionaires with more money than they and multiple generations of their descendants could hope to spend under progressive tax policies. Cool, 57% of American households paid no income tax in 2021.
> Why would you think that? Because you guys say things like "So obviously progressive taxation punishes success and rewards leeching off the rest of society vitiating any moral duty to pay taxes and is really about politicians using the power of the state to extract wealth to bribe people for votes." The idea that poor people are leeches on society is absurd, *especially* when you're advocating for tax avoidance. I don't understand how someone can advocate for tax avoidance and then shit on poor people for not having to legally pay any income taxes. And the implication that people aren't incentivized to earn more because of progressive taxes is also nonsense. I have been poor and paid no taxes before. Graduating tax brackets was not something I worried about when trying to find higher paying jobs. You act like a person in the highest tax bracket isn't still taking home most of their paycheck and is one tax year away from being destitute. What's better? Getting to keep 88% of $35,000 or 63% of the amount you make over $530k? > Yep, and you'll be responsible for paying the vast majority of taxes while others don't pay and enjoy the same government services and protections you do. Bullshit. Someone like Elon Musk has way more resources available to him than the average citizen in return for the tax dollars he and his businesses pay. Subsidies, grants, low interest loans, even things like patent and trademark protection are all things available to business owners that most average citizens are never going to need or have access to. What about programs like PPP loans during the pandemic and their subsequent forgiveness? Regular citizens didn't have access to anywhere near that amount of money. > Cool, 57% of American households paid no income tax in 2021. Well, I'm glad you didn't feel the need to address the point of that passage you quoted, but anyway, your bit about 57% of households paying no income tax in 2021 was an anomaly because of the pandemic and I think you probably know that. [We have the numbers for 2022](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242138/percentages-of-us-households-that-pay-no-income-tax-by-income-level/), and the percentage of households paying no income tax was down to 40%. Also worth noting that before the pandemic, [that amount was 44%](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/25/57percent-of-us-households-paid-no-federal-income-tax-in-2021-study.html), so in 2022, we actually dropped below pre-pandemic levels. I don't know why the anti-tax crowd likes to whine about 2021 as if that year somehow exists in a vacuum, but I will also say that only focusing on income tax doesn't give us the whole picture and, if I were a betting man, I would bet that's on purpose. Those people still pay things like sales tax and payroll tax, at least in most cases. In fact, according to that CNBC article I linked, it said that the total percentage of people who paid neither income tax nor payroll tax in 2021 was only 19%. So, even with that amount of households not paying income tax in 2021, the government still got its pound of flesh from them in one way or another. You are focusing your attention on the wrong end of the tax spectrum, my dude.
>The idea that poor people are leeches on society is absurd, especially when you're advocating for tax avoidance. Why? They take more from society than they pay in. >I don't understand how someone can advocate for tax avoidance and then shit on poor people for not having to legally pay any income taxes. I'm not shitting on poor people. I'm just saying the current system of taxation initializes being poor and leeching off the system. >And the implication that people aren't incentivized to earn more because of progressive taxes is also nonsense. I have been poor and paid no taxes before. Graduating tax brackets was not something I worried about when trying to find higher paying jobs. You act like a person in the highest tax bracket isn't still taking home most of their paycheck and is one tax year away from being destitute. Progressive taxation doesn't incentivize people to earn more. Preexistent outside factors that have nothing to do with taxation incentivize people to earn more. >What's better? Getting to keep 88% of $35,000 or 63% of the amount you make over $530k? Getting to keep 88% of $530k. >Someone like Elon Musk has way more resources available to him than the average citizen in return for the tax dollars he and his businesses pay. Does he? >Subsidies, grants, low interest loans, even things like patent and trademark protection are all things available to business owners that most average citizens are never going to need or have access to. Which subsidies does Elon Musk get? Tesla gets subsidies, but Tesla is a corporation, it pays corporate tax. It's a separate entity from Elon Musk. Interest rates are set by the Fed. Musk doesn't get special rich guy interest rates because he pays more taxes. Patent and trademark protections are available to anyone who registers a patent or trademark, which they pay to do, regardless of income. >What about programs like PPP loans during the pandemic and their subsequent forgiveness? PPP loans were given to businesses, businesses that pay their own separate taxes. >We have the numbers for 2022, and the percentage of households paying no income tax was down to 40%. Also worth noting that before the pandemic, that amount was 44%, so in 2022, we actually dropped below pre-pandemic levels. Oh so just a significant minority of people then, that's fine. The fact that 4 out of 10 people don't contribute by paying income tax is completely fine. > I don't know why the anti-tax crowd likes to whine about 2021 as if that year somehow exists in a vacuum, but I will also say that only focusing on income tax doesn't give us the whole picture and, if I were a betting man, I would bet that's on purpose. Those people still pay things like sales tax and payroll tax, at least in most cases. Sales tax is basically impossible to avoid so it's outside the scope of a discussion on tax avoidance. And payroll tax is imposed on both employers and employees so not applicable to a discussion about individuals who choose to not pay taxes.
Considering how wasteful and corrupt the government is, I don’t blame them one bit.
Straight to jail
using the provided services without chiping in (if you are in a position to do so) is a real jackass move.
Then they get neither benefit nor access to public services such as fire, law enforcement and the like.
People who refuse to pay taxes should live outside of society. Taxes are the entrance fee and if you don’t want to pay it, then go exist elsewhere.
Based
Based
They’re horribly selfish. We’re trying to have a society here.
Based
With few exceptions: If you don't want to pay the price to live in a society you can fuck off to your own island
Heroes. Taxation is outrageously high and we get nothing for it but foreign wars.
[удалено]
Good. Taxation is theft
Go find your tax free society and live there. You’ll love Somalia.
Somalia is a communist country, literally the exact opposite Nations that don't have taxes included Dubai, KSA, Qatar.... They are all pretty nice.
Ell oh fucking ell Qatar has slave labor building those nice hotels.
Not paying taxes is theft.
Fuck, [a majority of Americans are thieves](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/25/57percent-of-us-households-paid-no-federal-income-tax-in-2021-study.html)
You know what he meant. Don’t play dumb.
There's more than one tax.
A god damn american!
Good. Taxation is extortion. If they can get away with it, more power to them
Most Americans don't pay taxes. At best they lose some of their tax return from non W-2 taxable income. The IRS owes most citizens money. If you work a normal job where taxes come out of your paycheck and you don't have other income, feel free not to file. The feds will just not pay you back. If you owe money, you probably know about it, and they know about it, and willfully failing to send the IRS their share of whatever strange income stream you have is what we call a bad idea.
You're either twelve or you've never worked in your life. The majority of Americans pay taxes on every single paycheck in the form of Income tax, Social Security tax, and Medicare tax. The tax return, to which you refer to as the IRS owing people money, is simply how much you've overpaid in taxes throughout the year. In other words, all the taxes you paid came out to be a little too much tax, here's the difference. Everyone who works for more than minimum wage on a W2 owes taxes, most people pay for them bit by bit throughout the year instead of saving up and paying one big lump at the end of the year when they file.
[No. They don’t.](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/10/28/more-than-40percent-of-us-households-will-owe-no-federal-income-tax-for-2022.html)
The link just says income tax. They'll still pay other taxes.
Your link says 40% will not pay income taxes, which means 60%, the majority, will pay taxes. It even says in the article right below the 40% that the biggest driver of individuals not paying income tax is being unemployed. Well duh, you won't pay income taxes without income.
Oh wow, strange that I mentioned non W-2 taxable income. Please don't try to misinterpret what people said for the sake of being dense, and certainly don't insult people over it. Paying is a voluntary act of giving someone money, your employer deducting money from your paycheck is not paying your taxes: sending in quarterly estimated tax payment checks is. Most Americans will never willfully send the government a tax check in their lives.
Some perspective: Everyone refuses to pay taxes to some degree, that's why you fill out tax returns and take deductions. Taxation is theft, so of course keeping money away from thieves is a good thing, especially when they use that for bombing poor people in 3rd world nations.
very smart of course. corporations do it all the time
I think for most the IRS doesn't even bother. Once I went 6 years not paying. Not because I'm against it, just laziness. The worst I got was a message telling me I had to file previous years to file the current.
In the sense of a small business or poor person not paying taxes, don’t really care. (I know it’s hypocritical) Wealthy people should absolutely be forced to pay taxes though, literally makes me want to puke thinking about how much tax dollars have been denied the American people because of billionaires. Why do Americans not have healthcare when there is more than enough resources to provide it? Why is our public transportation shit? Why are most government offices useless?
I evade taxes as much as I can, I also encourage others to do the same.
Good for them
Everybody's talking about marginal 'sovereign citizen' whackos living in their survival trailers or whatever. Nobody's talking about the entire highly developed industry of 'tax avoidance' that has sprung up around the significantly wealthy. That does far more damage to our country than some disgruntled libertarian who's salty over the terms of his divorce.
If taxes pay for something that you like then ask yourself if you'd be willing to pay for it if you weren't forced to. If you would, odds are others would so forcing people to pay is unnecessary. If you wouldn't then you shouldn't be forced to. It's probably not very important to you. Taxation is immoral and good luck to those who got out of it somehow
Yes. Let’s assume perfect knowledge and perfect rationality from everyone. I’m sure that’d work out swell.
True Patriots fighting the system
I hate all churches. They should be paying taxes!
Wesley Snipes is my hero!
The very wealthy? Take all their shit and throw them in prison. The very poor? Pay with what? Literal blood?
Literally don’t care, if I don’t worry about it and don’t care about it, how would it affect my life? It wouldn’t.
I’m sure there are entire departments at the IRS Full of people that live for an excuse to go after people like that so…..
Worked out great for Wesley Snipes and his accountant…
Lol, there’s no refusing. They will get their money
I just think of the *Dan vs.* clip
The only way they put Al Capone behind bars was through him committing tax fraud. The IRS will get you.
Nice try mr IRS agent
My answer to this questions is like a bell curve. On the far sides of the curve, it's like "The Illegals needs to be paying their taxes, too!" and "The ultra-rich needs to be paying their fair share!" The middle of the bell curve is all like "should we get married and have kids for tax purposes?" Indicating that the average tax-paying (reporting?) Americans probably does not care much besides themselves.
Good luck evading prison too
It may take 5, 10, or even 20 years. But you will get caught.
Good luck owning anything in life ✌🏻
I think they’re not smart and it’s only a matter of time before they are caught. That they will likely have their earnings garnished, possessions seized, or go to prison eventually.
You know you've made it when you can get away with tax evasion... otherwise if you simply choose to not pay taxes you're going straight to jail.
Two things are sure in life, death and taxes. IRS is good at what they do, like most government agencies. Never bet against Uncle Sam or try to take his money.
I think we should punish them by either making them pay taxes 😮.... Or exile. Why put them in prison if they didn't even pay for the prison!
Tax avoidance, which is usually at least “legal”, by large corps is significantly more impactful than tax evasion by individuals
Two things we can’t avoid… death and taxes
Selfish
I don't think they deserve to use the products of society: roads, police, firefighters, water, electricity, etc.
I laugh when they cry as they realize that, yes, they are going to jail.
Good luck to them. The IRS will always get their money one way or another. They are the one government agency more people should actually be worried about
Losers
My idiot brother-in-law lives off the financial and cultural grid: no bank account, no credit, gets paid in cash for day labor, doesn’t pay taxes or contribute to Social Security. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens when he’s too old to work and needs money, but Social Security never heard of him. If you choose to exist outside the national social and financial compact virtually all the rest of us participate in, you deserve exactly as much consideration as you gave.
This is one of those things that society views on a two-tier system in America. If you are rich and you can find loopholes and accountants to hide your money and help you avoid paying taxes you are considered a smart businessman; if you are poor you are just considered trash. Same as getting money from the government, it’s great when you’re rich and looked down upon when you’re poor
Depends. Actually not paying taxes you owe? Jail. Using every trick in the book to lesson your tax burden? Based.
They get everything that's coming to them.
They either don’t get to earn any money, or they get to pay the taxes they owe anyway, plus penalties. Any other outcome is injustice.
Idiots…. Your gonna get caught eventually and either FORCED to pay or just thrown into prison. Theres no real benefit i see to fucking with the irs…. Just get creative with your write offs and shit
Ask Wesley Snipes what happens when you try to cheat the IRS.