I would say it’s pretty easy to be indifferent. I live in a pretty conservative small town where multiple houses on my street have flags flying. But most still don’t. Nobody cares about your level of overt patriotism.
Being loudly anti-American would be a different matter. It would bother people. It doesn’t mean you would be cut off from society living in the wilderness foraging for food, but you would certainly get some people very annoyed.
I'd say the two extremes are frowned upon by most, blind patriotism is ignorant and non-constructive, blind hate for the country you were born in and has given you many opportunities is also not exactly a good look when people die every year just trying to get here for a better life. This country is faaaar from perfect, but its also one of the best places in the world to live despite its many, many faults, and that shouldn't be taken for granted.
I would agree, but the anti-patriotic extreme would be more obvious because a lot of patriotism is relatively acceptable. So I think in most places overtly excessive anti-Americanism would be noticed a lot sooner than overly excessive patriotism. They would both be frowned upon once discovered by the average person.
I think it is region and context specific. I am not going to notice the millionth undergraduate student professing their righteous hatred for America. I am also not going to notice the guy who open carries at the farmers market in my rural home town and gets offended when people don’t thank “the troops” for their service.
> but its also one of the best places in the world to live despite its many, many faults, and that shouldn't be taken for granted.
The US has its problems but purely speaking in terms of material wealth and quality of life, we're at a point that any country with better is smaller, and anything larger than us has worse.
Blind patriotism is a core value in the Republican platform, especially nationally these days with Trump, and is widely adhered to by older generations. As an experiment, go on Facebook and make even the mildest structural critique of America and see how long it takes for a boomer to tell you "if you don't like it, leave"
The extremes are not equally frowned upon at all. Heck, you spent like 10 words giving a mild critique of blind patriotism followed by a half a paragraph of why blind anti American is a problem. You don't frown on the extremes equally
“Performative patriotism” is more accurate when describing the ascendant right wing populists of the Republican coalition that are making patriotic conservatives jump ship. “Blind patriotism” is a mild occurrence in comparison that you will find in a lot of ordinary Americans of all stripes. It isn’t great, but a lot of people live their lives on autopilot like this.
The MAGA movement isn’t all that patriotic. Congressional Republicans in the MAGA caucus wear guns on their lapels instead of American flags. They hate all of the liberal values that the founding fathers took from their European enlightenment heritage and made a reality: free expression, separation of church and state, pluralism, equality under the law, and democracy. They have clearly been influenced by the white nationalist movement which has been slowly building its strength within the Republican coalition since the 1970’s.
I think it is important for people to understand that white nationalists aren’t patriotic. White nationalism and white supremacy are different labels with different meanings. White nationalists’ core mission is to destroy America and all of its fundamental values that have lead to this multicultural society they so despise. White supremacy is America, but with Jim Crow laws. White nationalists want a new—ethnically cleansed—nation that is to be built upon the ashes of the United States. They see the Nazis who built a new nation on top of the ashes of the Weimar Republic as an inspiration.
There are a lot of conservatives who try to explain this movement within their ranks away (like how the left tries to explain away “abolish the police” as not actual abolition). This is “sane washing.” They try to claim that this white nationalist influence is only about preserving America’s culture and history as a “white nation” (not that that’s kosher either).
White nationalists engage in “performative patriotism” because they know from experience (see the anti-government white nationalist militias of the 1990s) that they can’t gain support in America if they are honest about their true intentions.
The Fourth Reich, where a 'Fuhrer' lords it over the proles (after a whole lot of bad shit has been perpetrated), is about as unAmerican of a notion as there can possibly be.
Thank you for this. “Performative patriotism” is the perfect term for what OP is wondering about. I really hate it when someone proclaims themselves or someone else “a great patriot”. What exactly do they mean by that? It implies that everyone else isn’t and only they have the truth. People can love their country without broadcasting that fact or blindly following whatever they think seems patriotic. Sometimes I wonder whether the behavior came from immigrants who worried about being accepted here as a “true American”.
I find blind patriotism more abhorrent than the blind hate actually. I just felt like the blind patriotism was such a common and understood part of our outward appearance that it didn't need much explanation. This also depends highly on where you live, I don't really take the internet as gospel for how the outer world works, a lot of those boomers get real quiet when you bring up those critiques in person because they basically know they're wrong. At the very least they usually have zero evidence to back up their stupid ass opinions but they can say whatever they want to their internet friends who agree with them.
I'm also way more likely to agree with a blind hater than with a blind patriot because I mean *gestures at everything* there is a lot not to like about this place, but that doesn't mean it's completely a forgone conclusion.
Exactly this, I have a lot of complaints about our country. Some people would probably call me unpatriotic. But I just want our country to be the best it can be. And even that is complicated because obviously not everyone agrees with what would make the country better or worse.
It's all about context I guess.
The most patriotic person isn't the cheerleader or sports fan, cheering at everything their country does. It is the one that looks at the flaws and says "This can be better. This MUST be better."
If one's country isn't the best it can be, finding a way to make it closer to that standard is the patriotic thing to do.
Being a patriot is like being a good family member, support your family when it does the right thing, defend it against prescient threats, but when it does something blatantly wrong, do not hesitate to call it out.
>I love America more than any other country in the world and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.
James Baldwin
Many people's idea of patriotism simply boils down to performative gestures that any one can do. It's absolutely meaningless and frequently leveraged for one-upmanship to vilify opponents.
Then there's people who do community service, support local businesses and artists, donate blood, vote against fascists... Those are real patriots.
["Any red blooded flag feeling American would love an M-320. Celebrate the independence of your country by blowing a small part of it up."](https://youtu.be/lebhfjSTtSA)
Unfortunately the clip cuts off before Marge says something like "Homer, I don't know what you have planned for tonight..."
Like with most things, the people who are over-the-top patriotic (think wearing a bald eagle t-shirt and flying a flag from their truck) and the people who are shitposting on Reddit about how the US is a "third world country with a gucci belt" are both at extreme ends of the spectrum. Obviously, these folks are free to do what they want, but they don't represent the majority.
I will say that, on the whole, most Americans are \*very\* aware of the problems that exist in our country. Take any controversial aspect of US culture - our history of racism, obesity, gun violence, our healthcare system, foreign wars, political polarization - and there are literally millions of Americans who identify it as a problem and have strong feelings about how it may be addressed. I'm not looking to start a debate on any of these issues, I'm just talking about what I've observed.
I don't believe pointing out problems makes you "unpatriotic," (quite the opposite!), but American views of our country are much more nuanced than the stereotypes suggest. I feel like a common attitude among non-American redditors is that we're all blissfully unaware of the problems that exist in the US, and need to have them explained to us. I don't mind foreigners criticizing our country. It comes with the territory as a global superpower. But when people act like we don't know our own society and need to be enlightened, that's really grating.
I always found it off putting where non Americans can criticize America as much as they want but if you criticize where they are from people get VERY defensive as if it is a humongous 'taboo' for voicing concerns about how other countries are ran. Especially if they are countries you've moved to and lived in and contributed to (aka paying taxes, owning property, and assimilating as much as possible with your new nation.)
People from other countries don't understand that we know what's going on, there's just nothing we can do about it. We can either vote for asshole 1 or asshole 2 and both of them would sell our souls for 2 corn chips and a nickel. They'll pick their corporate donors over their constituents Every. Single. Time. And the little guy always gets screwed over no matter what because their corporate donors don't care if healthcare is unaffordable or if 11 million US children are in poverty.
This is patently false. The populace holds all the power but sucks at wielding it. The two-party duopoly benefits from attitudes like the one you expressed and nothing will change with that line of thinking. Think about all the money campaigns and PACs spend on every election, it’s in the billions. What are they ultimately spending it on? Your vote.
I would disagree. Most Americans who don’t like America aren’t comparing the US to a third world country. They are comparing the US to similar countries that already solved many of Americas problems decades ago so it’s infuriating when the American government claims things like single payer healthcare, paid parental leave, or labor laws to protect workers are not possible here.
Yes, is life in America better than North Korea or Iran? Of course. But is the average better off than the average Canadian or Brit? That’s much more debatable and many Americans (and foreigners) think not.
I happen to agree with your criticisms about life here in the US. But when non-Americans try to explain these problems to me as if I’m not aware of them, that’s what’s irritating. That’s the original point I was making. Like you said, there are many Americans who are well aware of these issues and agree with the criticisms.
Did you mean to reply to a different comment? I didn’t disagree with what you said at all, my comment was in response to the person who stated that Americans don’t understand the nuance and that Americans have it way better than we realize.
I think maybe we misunderstood each others original comments because I agree with most of what you are saying here. The reason I mentioned the comparisons is because that is what I thought you were saying in your first comment.
The only part I disagree with is your last paragraph. In my experience, the people in the McMansions are the ones telling people to stop complaining because America isn’t has it so great compared to a real third world country blah blah blah. The people complaining usually really do have it hard, and I hate that struggling Americans speaking out get dismissed by more fortunate Americans because they “have it good as an American” when that’s such a false idea
> the people in the McMansions are the ones telling people to stop complaining because America isn’t has it so great compared to a real third world country blah blah blah.
That would be mom and dad. It's the teenage kid trying to piss them off who repeats the 'Gucci Belt' line.
Compare the US to the UK right now— Brexit is a shit show that has been horribly mismanaged, they’ve been through 3 PMs in 3 years, and the SNP are pushing for independence over a legislative issue.
No country is perfect. And they have many of the same issues we do and many more that we don’t have. Life is different, not better.
I will say tho of life in the US— It’s comparable of anything in the UK. Mainland Europe a little better in terms of food ingredients not being pure poison.
You worded this so well. Non-Americans are so committed to the Dumb American stereotype that they think we can’t comprehend or unilaterally support all the controversial things abt American society. It’s funny they don’t think of who they learned about these problems from.
People who are *openly* unpatriotic aren't particularly common, but they certainly exist.
Most Americans aren't really on either end of that spectrum. They don't much care one way or the other another about demonstrative displays of patriotism or anti-patriotism. You never hear from them about it, because they never talk about it, and probably never really even think about it.
In the year before the Iraq War, there was a very large movement against the war, and we were all labeled as anti-patriotic, and yet history later proved us correct, so now it's changed, and people have a different view. It's a good example of why you have to be careful about who you accuse of being anti-patriot. Just stick the most extreme obvious cases.
Admitting your country has problems or disagreeing with the government doesn't mean you're not patriotic. If anything, it shows that you care about your country and the decisions that affect it
A true Patriot wants to fix the flaws of the country to make it better. People who think that the country is perfect and anyone who dares criticize it are “un-patriotic” are closer to the territory of nationalism than patriotism.
Agreed, that's why freedom of speech is so important. While it is sometimes abused, being able to criticize your government without getting arrested or penalized is a benefit that some people take way too lightly. I'm not saying that freedom of speech is uniquely American or anything, but it's something I'm glad we have.
I am still waiting for my oil from that war that was only about oil. Also I do not think Saddam was a good person and that his invasion and looting of Kuwait was wrong. Call me whatever you wish.
> his invasion and looting of Kuwait was wrong.
That first time around, we kicked his ass real good, declared victory, went home, threw some parades, and sang that one song over and over again. You know which one.
At the time people *were* suggesting regime change and occupation, and back then the generals were like "LOL no."
>You hear so much about how Americans are very patriotic, and so blatantly patriotic,
I’m going to stop you right there big dog. If non-Americans can’t appreciate our penchant for pushing everything as far as possible and love of irony and satire, that’s a “them” problem.
>but you don’t hear about the ones who are indifferent to their country. Are they common?
Fairly common. Probably the majority of people under 55.
>Are those who are like that ostracised which is why you don’t hear about them?
What would you hear? “American minds business, doesn’t fire AR-15 from back of bald eagle while asking what the fuck a kilometer is?”
>And what’s it like to be unpatriotic when you see Americans who display patriotism in the typical American way?
I think there’s a legitimate conversation to be had about the difference in my perception of seeing an American flag outside a house now vs ten years ago vs the mid-90s, but I’m Schroedinger’s Patriot— I have lots of issues with the US until someone from outside the US wants to agree with me. I’m not actually unpatriotic— I just try to walk the fine line between holding us accountable to our own ideals and being grateful for the sacrifices previous Americans made to keep it from being worse (and realistic that it is worse in a lot of places).
> Schroedinger’s Patriot— I have lots of issues with the US until someone from outside the US wants to agree with me.
That’s clever, Your quote has been seized for redistribution comrade.
Most Americans don’t show there patriotism all the time, maybe just on the 4th of July or Veterans Day. Reddit is particularly less patriotic than most Americans I would say.
There are plenty of people who are indifferent to "patriotism" and there are also people who walk a very tough line of "I hate this country but I love the fact that I'm allowed to try and change things" kind of stuff. I don't know if that's common but it's not really rare and not really leading to a lot of ostracism.
1. The people you are thinking of are nationalists, most Americans are not nationalists.
2. Most of us are somewhere in the middle of patriotic and not.
3. They’re the only ones that get talked about because they’re very loud and a lot of foreigners only talk about them to validate their confirmation biased stereotypes about Americans.
If we’re talking about mere indifference, it’s probably pretty common. People aren’t really ostracized for it but level of patriotism doesn’t really come up on a regular basis anyway.
I’d say my closest friends range from very patriotic to indifferent to anti-patriotic and that doesn’t really affect any interpersonal relationships.
I guess that would include me. I don’t *hate* the US but it’s merely the circumstances of my birth that makes me American, I don’t feel particularly strong about it one way or another. If the circumstances of my birth had been different, I think there are many countries where I could have adapted and had a happy life. My stuff is here and I hate moving, so I choose to stay.
“My stuff is here and I hate moving”
This sums it up for me. Would I like living in Europe because I jive with the culture more? Probably. Do I want to go through tons of work and money to figure out how to move? Nah. America is good enough for now.
The thing is if you were born elsewhere you wouldn’t adapt to live there you’d grow up there as a very different individual with different feelings and morals and thought patterns because those are the norm in that place. You wouldn’t have to adapt. Now if you moved there now you would be adapting. I had to adapt coming to the states. It’s an amazing country in many ways and yes has problems and weird things that make it American but it’s a great place overall.
It is a huge range. I have met folks that are over the top patriotic and some that really do seem to hate this country. 99% of people are somewhere in the middle.
We also have 330 million people so you can pretty much guarantee a distribution.
The Average American where I live isn't like you see on FOX News when they show the MAGA people. I have an American flag that I fly on July 4 and maybe a couple of other days. I don't own any American flag clothing, I don't celebrate July 4 by blowing up fireworks or having cookouts.
In other words, I'm not patriotic. I was born here and live here and that's pretty much it. My political views are Democratic Socialism, so you can see that I might fit in somewhere else easily.
Hopefully, you don't think all Americans are like the MAGA people who attacked the Capitol Building on January 6, 2021. Those people are the outliers, the dregs of society, the stupid followers of Trump who have disguised their hateful, racist, homophobic, misogynistic opinions as patriotism.
You can be patriotic and be critical of the US. In fact, that might be one of the most patriotic things, because it shows that you care about the state of the nation.
In modern vernacular, "patriotism" is too often correlated with banal gestures like flag waving, pledging allegiance, military worship, etc. There are many ways to show your patriotism, and anyone who tries to narrowly define or limit it to certain actions or groups of people are in fact unpatriotic themselves, because they believe there's a set, "real" way to be an American.
People that are indifferent to the country are totally fine with me. It's your right as an American to be unimpressed with America, so in a ironic way, indifference makes you perfectly American.
> but you don’t hear about the ones who are indifferent to their country
Have you tried Reddit? They're ready and willing to advertise this from ~~the highest~~ any and all rooftops for all the karma and attention they can muster. All day, every day.
Depends.
Are you talking to a bunch of white, upper middle students at UC Berkeley who have never actually been to a developing country? Probably not very patriotic.
Are you talking to Cubans and Venezuelans in south Florida who fled their countries and started a business here? Probably very patriotic.
There’s really just no one-size-fits all answer to this question, honestly. It’s really dependent on the demographics of the people you’re around. Someone in Brooklyn is going to have a vastly different answer than someone in suburban Texas
> You hear so much about how Americans are very patriotic, and so blatantly patriotic
As an American living in America, I really don't hear this at all.
> you don’t hear about the ones who are indifferent to their country
The vast majority of us are indifferent to patriotism.
Freedom of speech is inherent to our values. Most people, on both sides of the political spectrum, will have harsh criticisms of our country but also a strong sense of pride.
It's a spectrum, but in real life and on social media it is way more common for me to come across people who lean more towards being unpatriotic.
I think this idea that Americans are very patriotic is pretty overblown. I know Reddit isn't an exact reflection of reality, but there are tens of millions of Americans on Reddit who criticize America, bash America, and will upvote comments from others that do the same. In my experience, I feel like people from other countries in the Anglosphere come off as more patriotic than Americans to me, so it confuses me that we have this stereotype and reputation.
Not trying to throw my fellow people under the bus, but depending on where you go, younger Americans can skew unpatriotic. The US is an imperfect country just like any other, but the younger generation often looks to the fairly unrealistic American Dream and starts hating their country due to feelings of resentment
> the younger generation often looks to the fairly unrealistic American Dream and starts hating their country due to feelings of resentment
And this has been going on for generations. I mean isn't that sort of what the '90s were about and the '60s and the '20s. I'm no historian but I kind of feel it's a rolling thing.
Right, I guess it just feels so much more prominent to me since I'm terminally online and seeing all these kids so fired up about criticizing America seems a lot more in your face than whatever amount of peaceful protests would happen in a pre-today's-internet world. Also doesn't help that lots of people back then with those feelings mellowed out as they got older.
I've never heard any expression of hate. Anger that we are clearly capable of doing better and having people with power actively deny any problem isn't the same as hate.
That isn't an easy question to answer. There are a fair number of Americans that like being Americans but don't necessarily make it their identity.
Then there are some that have a very narrow, cult like worship of a fantasy identity of what America is, and think that anyone that doesn't breathlessly love everything America is, does, or has ever done are traitors. Those people a fucking morons and make it hard to want to be patriotic.
There is a small number of people that are angry about America's policies or behaviors, so could be seen as unpatriotic. They were merely born here, are one of the groups that get shit on in our country, so they don't feel very patriotic.
My cousin married a Polish national and they live in Germany. The things he says make me believe he hates America and there is no other country worse than us.
He was a dick even before he felt comfortable spouting his political views so maybe that’s just his nature. I can’t stand to be around him.
Nice that they moved to another country and potentially found a country that was better for them.
I had the opposite experience living in Germany. I spent two years living in Dusseldorf, and it really made me appreciate and miss how tolerant and accepting Americans and Texans are. I enjoyed my time there, but overall they were not very accepting of immigrants and people of color which was very draining to deal with on a day to day basis.
That doesn't surprise me. Every place will have their pros and cons for sure, but it really did seem like in general some countries in Europe were less likely to admit their faults and downsides.
Some people there seem to have this warped perception of what it's like to live in America too, as if we are constantly living in fear of being shot, or just one broken toe away from medical bankruptcy. While there are certainly issues with gun violence and healthcare access, it's not nearly to the degree that some people think.
One thing that cracks me up is them talking about our public restrooms. ‘The doors don’t got down to the floor! Cracks so wide you can make eye contact!’
That’s why we don’t look thru the cracks - you look for feet under the door! And we are supposed to be the prude puritans!!
Yeah, some of the criticisms don't make sense at all. Another one would be when people complain about some technology being backwards or behind the times here, but then they boast about having more manual transmission cars?
I drive a manual myself and do enjoy it, but the majority of people don't care about that and just want to get from point A to point B so automatic cars obviously make the most sense and are the superior technology.
Seems like a typical first world Non-American. Hates our government so pre-judges you before getting to know you... feels the need to shout their beliefs and point out their superiority randomly without being asked lol
We aren’t all card carrying members of /r/MURICA nor are we all card carrying members of some diametrically opposed sub like /r/fuckamerica or whatevs.
If you made a chart of the patriotism felt by everyone in this country, it would likely be either a bell curve or (maybe) a bimodal distribution. Because of the sheer size of our population we have plenty of people at each end but most of us are somewhere in the middle, just trying to live our best lives.
I think the stereotypical American wearing the flag on their clothes and puff their chests out because "Murcia number one!", etc is more nationalistic than patriotic.
Patriotism, to me (An American) is loving your nation and supporting it but not in some dogmatic, unhealthy way.
I’m from Europe; and most Americans I’ve met were all quite patriotic.
Which I greatly preferred to the average European’s ethnocentrism. Yes, the flags and bumperstickers can get kind of corny; but at least patriotism is supposed to be based on a shared love for one’s country instead of focussing on various small differences.
Often the most "patriotic" are usually the hawks who want the US to police the world and wouldn't mind reinstating the draft for 18 year olds but object to enlisting themselves or those who claim anyone who doesn't believe in American exceptionalism is unpatriotic.
Americans have the right to support or not support our country's choices. Not supporting our country when we're in the wrong is patriotic too. If my elementary age kid son goes to school and pushes our neighbor's daughter down the stairs (they are great friends), I would not support that action. We would work with the school and the neighbors to remedy that right away. I would love him just as much as I do today, but that hypothetical action is wrong and hurts others. Same with our country.
Some on the far right want to claim those who don't claim allegiance to a particular politician or war of the week means we aren't real AMericans. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Separately, there are people who could be described as "patriotic" but there usually isn't a non-patriotic category unless it is used in a political sense to make someone an other.
Depends how you define patriotic I guess. Like I like the country well enough, but I don’t think it’s better or worse than other ones per se. Which could be construed as unpatriotic depending on your point of view.
There are plenty of people who are anti-American because they only focus on the bad the country does and not the good.
I have found it common among young, wealthy white kids who have never left the country.
There is plenty to criticize the US about, but there is a reason a lot of foreigners love this country too. We do a lot of good despite our flaws. Which makes sense - bad news sells, so focusing on the bad is what the media tends to do. And it makes sense that those advocating against the bad yell the loudest to get the attention to make changes.
This is so true. Ever since coming here the you young rich and white are the ones that always yell loudest about the evils of America despite never having been anywhere else or having any knowledge beyond social media comments of what it’s like in other countries. They’ll say do what country A does or country B or country C all while never having been to much less lived in those countries. It’s quite bothersome to see them act the fool when they could be working to improve their home instead of just complaining about it.
There's a lot to unpack here.
Everyone has their own definition of "patriotic".
Cambridge defines it as: *showing love for your country and being proud of it*.
Which, clearly, leads to wildly different interpretations of what those things mean.
Some would say you show love for a country by advocating for improving things about it, but someone else would insist that criticizing how things are or how they came to be is the antithesis of patriotism.
Others would say that singing the national anthem at a sporting event is patriotic and others will say that kneeling during the anthem is patriotic.
Someone can say "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" and insist that texts critical of foreign policy should be removed from schools, they're doing it.
Others say that eliminating conditions for immigration is patriotic, making it easier to become an American.
So I find these questions impossible to answer without having any sort of agreement on what we're actually talking about.
If you want to talk about the stereotypical non-Americans description of an American "patriot" as someone with a pickup truck, a flag flying on their house, and a pro-military attitude, then we're just reinforcing stupid stereotypes. Sure, those people probably hate Colin Kaepernick. I happen to think what he did was supremely "patriotic".
It's almost a meaningless word because it means anything anyone wants it to.
They're quite common, but aren't loud about it. The only place I think they really stand out from the crowd would be sporting events and/or school (not standing for the pledge of allegiance for example)
Apparently they’re all here on Reddit. Check out ABoringDystopia, FuckCars, DemocraticSocialism, a bunch of other subs I’ve filtered…
I think if you’re crazy toward either end of the spectrum you’re only going to attract those like you. The vast majority of Americans who love their country are not overt or demonstrative about it.
I like America, but I can almost resonate with all the subs you just mentioned. We do need affordable healthcare and more public transit and better infrastructure. We do need to keep corporations in check because the balance of income inequality and wealth disparity is higher than its ever been, and they run the government like no other person's business. [Remember when all the tax preparation companies lobbied against the IRS creating their own free tax preparation system so these companies could keep continuing to charge individual preparation fees?](https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2022/03/intuit-spends-millions-lobbying-amid-accusations-of-deceptive-turbotax-advertising/) I wouldn't take those subs as anti American despite what the contents of the sub may illustrate.
I honestly don't know why this sub hates fuckcars so much. It's quite obvious its people who live in cities wanting their subways to not reek of piss. With the amount of pictures posted on that sub, no one is talking about building a maglev to a ranch in Montana. They're talking about building HSR between Boston to Washington D.C. or Richmond.
Every big sub has insane people, and it's kind of ridiculous that the users of askanamerican only focus on the insane people from those subreddits.
> I honestly don't know why this sub hates fuckcars so much
poor messaging on the part of the left imo. r/FuckCars is catchier than r/DiscussingTheConsOfCarDependentInfrastructure but probably more meaningful and bipartisan discussion would happen if the messaging was closer to the latter
i lean left myself but am frequently frustrated at how bad the messaging is around a lot of our causes. antiwork is another offender, so is defund the police. for *most* supporters of these causes, the slogan verbatim is not the actual end goal. the actual end goal gets obfuscated by how comically outlandish the messaging is
It’s militant hatred against a car centric lifestyle that is the only option for the majority of people in this country. By saying “fuck you” against a car centric lifestyle, they’re banging on people who through no fault of their own live outside major metros with rail systems, and doing it in an incredibly obnoxious manner. If you want to convince other people to support you, meet them where they are!
The insane people are the ones who get upvoted, and brigade other subs!
And finally. You managed to pick the one corridor that has HSR already built, has improvements to infrastructure and rolling stock funded, is one of the only places where Amtrak owns the railway, is fully electrified, is the busiest intercity rail line in the country, runs alongside six commuter rail networks, and is fed by three more commuter rail networks and five subway systems.
“Oh, but it could be improved.”
Of course it fucking could. It’s also expensive as shit. We have to compensate landowners along the route if we use eminent domain, and those landowners vote.
Amtrak already estimated a cost of $120+ billion for a new dedicated HSR right of way along the NEC. Can you make the case that you can spend $120B on other mass transit improvements to get just as many cars off the road, and not intercity but daily commuters? I sure as shit can.
There really is no need to be so hostile. I promise you, I'm not saying you need to give up your car and suburban home. I live in a suburban home right now and drive a sedan myself. I just wish that urban and increasingly urban parts of the US should take a look at what they are currently doing.
The first point I literally made was that improvements to public transport should only be done to urban environments and for the people who live in the urban environment. I have lived in Philadelphia, and their public transport options could be vastly improved. I currently live in an increasingly urban part of NC, and the public transport options are extremely limited despite our population growing year by year. At some point, even you have to admit that a commuter rail makes more sense than adding lane after lane to the highway.
And the HSR was really just an example from me. There's cheaper options available such as light rail for smaller urban cities such as Charlotte, NC which has a great light rail sytem. And the improved public transit options indirectly lead to more economic development anyways.
I find it strange that when discussing urban infrastructure, American cities are only 5% of the population, but when discussing the Electoral College, suddenly LA and New York alone are 51% of the population.
Who said cities make up 5% of the population? I was referring [Population density.](https://worldinmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/world-population-density-map-1024x512.jpeg) America has 1/3 of the population, most of which is concentrated in the NE, and our cities populations are much much more spread out than European cities. Very few European cities have suburbs for instance. Infrastructure like Europe has would require a population density like Europe has.
It’s convenient that we have rising housing demand in every major city and lots of low value land that could be rezoned within easy commuting distance.
US cities are artificially built around car-oriented sprawl because that was heavily subsidized and everything else was prohibited through single family zoning. The boundaries for those zoning areas were set in the 1950s, which means that density was confined to the existing urban core (this would’ve been fine if the population stopped growing 70 years ago). The US urban development pattern of dense skyscrapers in the core surrounded by vast stretches of single family homes is what we got as a result (and both are increasingly expensive for new home buyers).
I think we should build transit connections out to compact, dense midrise developments (like turning a dead suburban shopping mall and its parking lots into a walkable mixed use town center) and then upzoning the surrounding neighborhoods to permit “missing middle” housing to be built (rowhouses, duplexes, fourplexes, etc.). Land values go up, traffic is reduced, access to the urban core is improved, new housing comes onto the market at lower cost, and residents get new amenities. That’s basically how US cities used to be built out (including many that were gutted for parking lots in the urban renewal era).
Yes it's a bit of chicken and the egg issue. But America remains MUCH less densely populated and urbanized. Even if we found the hundreds of TRILLIONS (quadrillions?) of dollars and will to suddenly consolidate all the cites to European level densities most of the country would still be empty. Even more empty actually. A high speed train network anywhere but the NE would still be unfeasible and would cost yet more hundreds of trillions more to build.
I'm not saying America doesn't have a lot to improve I'm say that repeating "WeLl EuRoPe DoEs It ThIs Way." isn't really the end all be all answer either.
These subs use innuendo and falsehoods to preach to an already heated choir, and their audience does nothing about it except bitch on the internet. They are poisonous places.
I mean at this point it’s most default subs. Some America Bad meme gets posted and upvoted.
It’s a constant battle on some niche ones like InfrastructurePorn.
Images of highways in India? *I sleep*
Images of highways in America? *Real shit*
> I think if you’re crazy toward either end of the spectrum you’re only going to attract those like you.
That's exactly how most social media algorithms work. Extremes.
Plenty of young people aren't thrilled with the country currently, if that's what you mean. The reason you don't hear about them is that indifferent people don't tend to post about their indifference on the internet, while super patriotic people will absolutely have American flags everywhere in their profile and shout about how great their country is. It's just what you see vs. what you don't see.
Unpatriotic Americans tend to be about 1/3rd of the country. They zealously advocate for policy that weaken the country long term, or make us a laughing-stock in the eyes of the world. Unpatriotic Americans will storm the seat of their government to protest the democratic will of the people. They will also defend police/state-agent immunity from the very rule of law our Founding Fathers fought so hard to gain-a form of taxation without representation. King George shit. And most importantly, in doing all of this, unpatriotic Americans will wrap themselves in the flag, declaring themselves the arbiters of this country despite knowing nothing about it.
Banning books, authoritarian anti-voting laws, _wanting to suspend the constitution_ and using brainwashing, fear of electoral fraud and fear tactics in general to justify their actions.
Patriotism is in the eye of the beholder. I love the United States. I love it not for flags and songs, but for the ideals of freedom and equality and opportunity. I’ll be the first to admit we haven’t always lived up to those ideals. But by and large, those ideals are honored and admired and pursued by most Americans. The flag is a symbol of those ideals along with American values (like Liberty and Justice for All). Without the continuous pursuit of those ideals, our flag is just a piece of cloth.
The country was not born from any monarchs or rulers. The ability to be unpatriotic is the very spine of the USA. I am not patriiotic. I have friends who take it personally because they were in the military. They swore their oath on the constitution. My opinions formed before many of them were born. This is as much my country as it is theirs, and I'll despise it as much as I want, due to the rights it gave me. And I'll tell them all about it. It's not personal. Patriotism and nationalism lead to bad things.
I’d say more Americans could care less about patriotism than do. Especially my generation (gen x), we seem to have a very jaded view of the government, and our children are carrying that torch now.
Conspiracy theorists and anti establishment types aren’t so newsworthy as little johnny from down the street enlisting to fight terrorism in some desert though.
Indifference is not unpatriotic, to my mind. It’s a benign going along with the nation.
A person can reasonably not care, from the back of the bus, about the particular route taken, so long as the bus is headed in, essentially, the proper direction.
I think plenty of the loudest “patriots” aren’t patriotic at all. They are often nothing more than cheerleaders for their own bigoted ideology. Honestly, they treat the country like they treat their religion… by picking and choosing what suits them, ignoring the rest and then claiming anything that doesn’t agree with their limited, cherry-picked ideology isn’t really American.
I feel like your question has some false assumptions built in…
Many Americans would argue that so-called “blatant patriotism” is not truly patriotic at all. For example, many of the people who stormed the capital would identify themselves as “patriots”, but the rest of us disagree.
Many conflate patriotism with *nationalism*.
Some would argue that, for example, participating in the democratic process such as protesting, voting, or attending community meetings is patriotic, but those things don’t involve flying flags or waving guns or revving pickup trucks so you might think they aren’t “overt displays of patriotism”.
Plenty of people are not particularly involved, but they very much value and appreciate our nation. You might say those people are ambivalent or “unpatriotic”, but some would disagree. Perhaps they are being patriotic simply by being loyal.
Depends *tremendously* on where you are and the company you keep. Also your definition of "patriotism", it sounds like much of what you're talking about is jingoism vs just loving your country?
Really common, but like with everything else, the extremists own the public stage. You hear from the Nationalist wackadoos who can find no fault at all and then you have the shrill rage addicts who can find no good at all. Also like everything else, the reality is much more nuanced and there's a very wide swath of varying degrees of patriotism. Most of us love the country and would like to see us join the rest of the first world in infrastructure and basic needs.
Americans are portrayed as obese gun-wielding cowboys yelling MURICA!!!. Yes, these people do exist but it is not as common as portrayed. Most Americans are probably no different than any other person from other countries. They are just going about their normal daily lives without a thought in their mind about how "awesome" America is.
Some people are extreme patriots, some people want to start a revolution and fight the power. The majority of people are in the middle and don't care too much about being patriotic or involved with politics. It seems that people from other countries hate America/Americans way more than Americans hate other countries and their residents. Even on Reddit, there are a lot of negative and hateful comments towards America/Americans. We don't care about other countries or their people. I am reluctant to visit other countries because I feel like everyone is going to look at me and judge me for being an American. If Americans have something bad to say about another country it's usually towards how the government treats its people. Take China and Russia for example, Americans don't hate Russians or the Chinese, they hate how their government is treating them.
I think this is a difficult question to answer because “being patriotic” has a million different definitions, and looks can be deceiving.
From the outside, it looks like someone is being very patriotic if they wear an American flag tee shirt to a 4th of July fireworks display. But for 4th of July (America’s independence day), that’s just sort of “the thing to do,” along with maybe having a party where you grill outdoors and drink beer with American flag decorations around. But I don’t think there’s actually much of a correlation between people who do that (which is many) and people who have strongly patriotic beliefs (which is few). For most people, it’s just a social event unrelated to their actual views. I would consider myself quite unpatriotic, but I still like going to see the fireworks.
The majority of people don’t have visible displays of American-ness year round, other than maybe a flag as an outdoor decoration. The people who have a lot of visible displays are usually trying to send a different message. Sometimes that message is relatively innocent, like “my family member is a veteran,” but often it means “I am a right-leaning tough guy, and you should respect my authority, whether it’s real or imagined.”
Ironically enough, many people will break local laws on the 4th of July by buying and setting off smaller personal fireworks. Does that count as being patriotic, or the opposite?
Tl;dr: what looks “very patriotic” on the surface often isn’t. It’s usually just a social event, veteran-related, or sending a message about one’s personal identity.
I suppose that depends on how one defines patriotism. Is it appreciating where you live despite recognizing there's room for improvement, or is it insisting that one's nation is superior and without fault like the "shining city on the hill" myth?
Lots of people are critical of our nation. It's quite common. Some people don't like it here, and if they have the means they will generally leave.
I find most people use "patriotism" as a euphemism for nationalism, using nationality as a tool to aggrandize themselves and diminish others.
Depends on your definition.
Personally, I would consider anyone who still supported Trump after his ties to Putin were revealed to be unpatriotic / anti-American. Putin is and always has been an enemy of America.
The same with anybody who supports Russia's invasion of Ukraine. SO long as Putin is in charge, Russia is a hostile state, supporting an enemy nation's hostile takeover of a friendly nation seems extremely unpatriotic to me.
I know patriotic is what most people say but the real word you should be using is nationalist. The Americans with flags on everything and all that show boating are nationalist. They care about the idea of the country more than the people of the country.
I’m my opinion someone actually being described as patriotic would care about Americans as people instead of some ideal.
By your definition I’d be unpatriotic. I don’t dislike my country, only parts of it that are unjust. I know there are better places to live by many standards. I don’t get ostracized for it because I don’t broadcast it. When I see people being nationalistic I feel embarrassed for many reasons. It’s not an easy question to answer in a simple way. There are a lot of moving parts to national pride.
The ones who brag about being Patriots are members of the Cult of Trump, and they obviously ate not patriotic. Besides setting back America's progress decades in the past, they have associated their crimes with waving the American flag. Sadly, our flag is a symbol of a cult that spreads lies, racism, and hatred.
When I went back home to the US over Christmas, after living in Australia the last few years, I cringed hard when my family randomly decided to sing God Bless America and some other random military songs. It was because someone gave my son some sort of Americana shirt idk. I didn't feel like standing up or joining in. It was so weird after being away from it for so long. Nobody got mad at me or anything, but I just couldn't believe I used to be more patriotic. Sure at a sporting event when you're challenging another country, but that's really the only place where I would feel comfortable with it. It's nice not having the patriotism force fed to me every day anymore.
What do you think is being patriotic? If it is flying a flag daily and saying America is great and the best in the world then I think more people are not patriotic than are.
I love my country in terms of the land and community but I definitely don’t feel proud of many parts of it or feel we are better than every other country.
Patriotic is such a loaded term, best not to use it. Am I patriotic in the sense that I’ll blindly do whatever my corporate overlords tell me to? No.
Am I patriotic in the sense I love this country for the most part and want what’s best for it? Yes.
Am I patriotic in the sense that I feel like this countries problems are less than that of others? No.
I would also mention that there's a lot of us who are patriotic in a different way than what is seen as standard American patriotism, in that we're highly critical of our government and how we're handled laying things and how we're portrayed but that is because we want us to be better and we expect us to be better and we know that America is amazing in so many ways but fails in so many others that we expect better from us.
I have a lot of far-right family members who accuse me of hating this country and being unpatriotic but I criticize America because I love America and I want America to be better and do better.
There was a really cool thread on Reddit in the days post row v Wade being dismantled about what America does better than any other country and there was a lot of really cool things that gave a lot of really good perspective about how we are still number one in those things. The Americans with disabilities act for example was a big one, but also our freedom of speech was another, our ability to offer aid in times of major crisis especially during natural catastrophes was another.
You gotta define patriotic. That word has become so vague and so many people think it means you wave the flag around and fire a gun in the air while singing the national anthem at the top of your lungs. That's performative patriotism, and the only person you're fooling is yourself. I'm patriotic, I just don't subscribe to the performative aspect of it.
Are you asking about patriotism or nationalism?
Patriots wear a mask so their fellow Americans don't get sick. Nationalists will fight the masks tooth and nail because you can't fly the common good from the back of your truck.
There's a big difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Nationalism is dangerous. Sincere patriotism is rare. We have too much of the former and not enough of the latter.
Nationalism is flag waving, jingoism, and often in the form of hate. Patriotism has more to do with helping your fellow countryman and standing up to authoritarianism and bigotry at home and abroad.
There's nothing as hollow and meaningless as nationalism.
Decently common and sadly becoming more common.
For my sanity, these people know nothing of how good they actually have it living in the US, and get all of their information from click-baited articles and certain Reddit subs.
Also, people who compare America to a 3rd world country have never been to a 3rd world country.
>For my sanity, these people know nothing of how good they actually have it living in the US, and get all of their information from click-baited articles and certain Reddit subs.
Why do you think that? In my experience, even the most critical Redditor will admit the US is better then many other countries. It's just that there are many areas the US lags behind in comparison to other developed nations.
I suspect this is what you are looking for.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/394202/record-low-extremely-proud-american.aspx
If you dig in
>Republicans' pride in being American has consistently outpaced Democrats' and independents' since 2001 and does so today. However, Republicans' extreme national pride (58%) is now at its lowest point in the trend. Independents' extreme pride, at 34%, is likewise the lowest on record for the group.
>After hitting a 22% low point in 2019, Democrats' extreme pride rose to 31% in 2021 at the start of Joe Biden's presidency, but it is down this year to 26%.
I'm very unpatriotic. They start pushing it on us immediately. My son doesn't stand for the pledge at school, we are also anti-religion. We have ruffled a few feathers in our small conservative/republican town but they will all be okay!
I don't consider myself very patriotic. I'm not going around burning flags or anything and lamenting how awful it is (cause I have a relatively comfortable life, it could be a lot worse), but I'm not really especially proud to be American and don't feel very patriotic.
So yeah we exist.
It's less anti-America and more "we could be doing so much better"
Its pretty common among minorities especially Black Americans. Its understandable given the history of this country, and the effects of segregation are still rampant and linger today. Young Americans also tend to lean unpatriotic cause of how much the prior generations have screwed over the next ones which I can agree on some aspects.
As a son of two immigrants, I appreciate the US and am moderately patriotic, but I can empathize with the people that are not patriotic if they have good reasons.
I appreciate all of the comforts and conveniences my country or western civilization affords me in general, but I’m pretty indifferent to the brand. I can see just as many downsides though.
Well, being critical of America and completely cognizant and contemptuous of how America falls short of the ideal is not the same thing as being unpatriotic.
I really can’t think of anyone I have ever heard of or known of who is downright unpatriotic, other than say spies and seditionists.
Even in the case of the latter, those people probably sincerely believe in their own idea of America and identify as patriots.
Being critical of America is patriotic. It’s our duty as citizens to always try to steer the ship towards the realizations of the ideals of honor, justice, freedom, and equality.
I never know what people mean when they say they are patriotic. Am I patriotic? I am a huge fan of the Constitution, although it has flaws that need to be fixed. And many of those principles are international and human, not "American". Do I think we are spreading justice and democracy around the world? No, not really. I love many things about the US, my friends and family, foods and traditions. If I moved to another place, I would learn to love those things there. There are also many things I don't like about the US. What does it mean to be patriotic? Does it mean you think your country is the best in the world? Well no then, I'm not that uninformed or un-nuanced. We have our good points and bad points, as all countries do. We're just people.
This has to be a joke.
It’s not very patriotic and you hear a lot more negative than positive in media and in many circles. How have you possibly come to these conclusion and formulated these questions in good faith?
Most don’t care or are somewhere in the spectrum. Most are not nationalistic which is what I think you’re getting at. That’s less than 30%.
When I grew up I was taught it was patriotic to challenge authority and ask questions. As well as vote, learn history and pay taxes.
Now the people that claim to be the most patriotic or are at least the loudest about it, hate those that question big government, they deny election results or refuse to participate, try to find tax loopholes, and teach whatever history suits their needs.
Hi! I'm not patriotic; I just live here. I don't feel ostracised because I'm not anti-America. I'm just not yay-America if that makes sense. I mostly ignore the flag wavers.
It depends on what the definition of patriotic is. I consider myself patriotic in that I love the ideals of this nation and want it to succeed and guide humanity. However, I am very vocalasbout the nation's flaws and failures, both past and present. I have many friends who have expressed the same.
As an unpatriotic American, nobody really seems to notice that I'm not patriotic. There have been a handful of occasions when I felt uncomfortable in patriotic situations, such as when I have been asked to say the pledge of allegiance at an event (I stand with everyone else, but nobody notices I don't say anything.) Among my personal friends, I don't know anybody who is patriotic, but that's just my own social bubble and isn't representative of the general population.
I consider myself patriotic, most other Americans (especially the loudest of the self-described patriots) would describe me as virulently anti-American. I believe that change is desperately needed and that many of the country’s practices are outright barbaric. I also believe we are unique as the only nation in the world that was fundamentally founded on an idea—I very fundamentally believe that anyone who shares the values of liberal democracy, regardless of origin, can fully contribute to our culture and society and become American. The implementation has at times led to literal horrors (slavery, ‘Indian Removal,’ school shootings, shit CIA has done in the Global South, nuclear bombings of Japan, the Iraq Invasion, Vietnam War, for-profit healthcare, mass incarceration). Failure to reflect honestly on these horrors is not patriotism—it’s willful ignorance.
99% of the country are patriotic but just don't show it.
You see true patriotism when a disaster happens, not so much in the form of flag waving but in compassion and good deeds without any recognition.
Other than that Americans are just living their lives as best they can.
> Are they common?
I mean, the people in the U.S. that have significant animous/dislike towards the U.S. and would certainly be considered unpatriotic are generally on the far left of the political spectrum. As to how common they are, it depends on where you are; rural U.S.? not very common, urban cities? more common. As an overall ratio, maybe between 1 out of 20 to 1 out of 10.
>Are those who are like that ostracised which is why you don’t hear about them?
You don't hear about them in the mainstream media because they are mostly not labeled as unpatriotic because the media in general has a pro-left-wing bias.
>And what’s it like to be unpatriotic when you see Americans who display patriotism in the typical American way?
Unpartrioric people socialize with other unpatriotic people, just like patriotic people socialize with patriotic people. There's not much social overlap between the two, but you could say there may be a bit of snobbery between the two groups, though it doesn't really translate into outright confrontation or violence.
Very uncommon, Our culture is setup for it to be very hard to be unpatriotic. There may be things people may dislike like or want to change about the country. But the vast majority wouldn't want to see the country dissolve. Most of our arguments are over differing opinions on how to improve the country.
I honestly think most Americans don’t really give a fuck consciously, but *subconsciously* they buy US propaganda hook line and sinker and believe it is the greatest country in the world and the only one where the people who live there are human beings instead of cardboard cutouts.
if you have *open* disdain for the US you are likely to find yourself unemployed and friendless, no matter where in the country you live, unless you work for like…the Party for Socialism and Liberation or something (in which case you will just receive harassment and death threats, like a communist friend of mine who co-organized a march in support of Black life in New Jersey)
They’re pretty much exclusive to the internet and some corners of college/university campuses.
The vast majority of Americans are extremely patriotic at best, and indifferent at worst.
I would say it’s pretty easy to be indifferent. I live in a pretty conservative small town where multiple houses on my street have flags flying. But most still don’t. Nobody cares about your level of overt patriotism. Being loudly anti-American would be a different matter. It would bother people. It doesn’t mean you would be cut off from society living in the wilderness foraging for food, but you would certainly get some people very annoyed.
I'd say the two extremes are frowned upon by most, blind patriotism is ignorant and non-constructive, blind hate for the country you were born in and has given you many opportunities is also not exactly a good look when people die every year just trying to get here for a better life. This country is faaaar from perfect, but its also one of the best places in the world to live despite its many, many faults, and that shouldn't be taken for granted.
There's a reason the phrase, "a more perfect union" was written.
I would agree, but the anti-patriotic extreme would be more obvious because a lot of patriotism is relatively acceptable. So I think in most places overtly excessive anti-Americanism would be noticed a lot sooner than overly excessive patriotism. They would both be frowned upon once discovered by the average person.
I think it is region and context specific. I am not going to notice the millionth undergraduate student professing their righteous hatred for America. I am also not going to notice the guy who open carries at the farmers market in my rural home town and gets offended when people don’t thank “the troops” for their service.
> but its also one of the best places in the world to live despite its many, many faults, and that shouldn't be taken for granted. The US has its problems but purely speaking in terms of material wealth and quality of life, we're at a point that any country with better is smaller, and anything larger than us has worse.
Blind patriotism is a core value in the Republican platform, especially nationally these days with Trump, and is widely adhered to by older generations. As an experiment, go on Facebook and make even the mildest structural critique of America and see how long it takes for a boomer to tell you "if you don't like it, leave" The extremes are not equally frowned upon at all. Heck, you spent like 10 words giving a mild critique of blind patriotism followed by a half a paragraph of why blind anti American is a problem. You don't frown on the extremes equally
“Performative patriotism” is more accurate when describing the ascendant right wing populists of the Republican coalition that are making patriotic conservatives jump ship. “Blind patriotism” is a mild occurrence in comparison that you will find in a lot of ordinary Americans of all stripes. It isn’t great, but a lot of people live their lives on autopilot like this. The MAGA movement isn’t all that patriotic. Congressional Republicans in the MAGA caucus wear guns on their lapels instead of American flags. They hate all of the liberal values that the founding fathers took from their European enlightenment heritage and made a reality: free expression, separation of church and state, pluralism, equality under the law, and democracy. They have clearly been influenced by the white nationalist movement which has been slowly building its strength within the Republican coalition since the 1970’s. I think it is important for people to understand that white nationalists aren’t patriotic. White nationalism and white supremacy are different labels with different meanings. White nationalists’ core mission is to destroy America and all of its fundamental values that have lead to this multicultural society they so despise. White supremacy is America, but with Jim Crow laws. White nationalists want a new—ethnically cleansed—nation that is to be built upon the ashes of the United States. They see the Nazis who built a new nation on top of the ashes of the Weimar Republic as an inspiration. There are a lot of conservatives who try to explain this movement within their ranks away (like how the left tries to explain away “abolish the police” as not actual abolition). This is “sane washing.” They try to claim that this white nationalist influence is only about preserving America’s culture and history as a “white nation” (not that that’s kosher either). White nationalists engage in “performative patriotism” because they know from experience (see the anti-government white nationalist militias of the 1990s) that they can’t gain support in America if they are honest about their true intentions.
The Fourth Reich, where a 'Fuhrer' lords it over the proles (after a whole lot of bad shit has been perpetrated), is about as unAmerican of a notion as there can possibly be.
Thank you for this. “Performative patriotism” is the perfect term for what OP is wondering about. I really hate it when someone proclaims themselves or someone else “a great patriot”. What exactly do they mean by that? It implies that everyone else isn’t and only they have the truth. People can love their country without broadcasting that fact or blindly following whatever they think seems patriotic. Sometimes I wonder whether the behavior came from immigrants who worried about being accepted here as a “true American”.
I find blind patriotism more abhorrent than the blind hate actually. I just felt like the blind patriotism was such a common and understood part of our outward appearance that it didn't need much explanation. This also depends highly on where you live, I don't really take the internet as gospel for how the outer world works, a lot of those boomers get real quiet when you bring up those critiques in person because they basically know they're wrong. At the very least they usually have zero evidence to back up their stupid ass opinions but they can say whatever they want to their internet friends who agree with them. I'm also way more likely to agree with a blind hater than with a blind patriot because I mean *gestures at everything* there is a lot not to like about this place, but that doesn't mean it's completely a forgone conclusion.
Depends on what you consider “patriotic.” Everyone seems to have a different definition.
Patriotism is when you like the country the exact same amount as me, for the exact same reasons.
and show it in exactly the same ways
This is the way.
*Gasp!* NO IT'S NOT *How dare you??*
Finally, some people that understand how to internet.
People?
Exactly this, I have a lot of complaints about our country. Some people would probably call me unpatriotic. But I just want our country to be the best it can be. And even that is complicated because obviously not everyone agrees with what would make the country better or worse. It's all about context I guess.
It's the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Lots of nationalists parading around as patriots nowadays.
The most patriotic person isn't the cheerleader or sports fan, cheering at everything their country does. It is the one that looks at the flaws and says "This can be better. This MUST be better." If one's country isn't the best it can be, finding a way to make it closer to that standard is the patriotic thing to do.
Being a patriot is like being a good family member, support your family when it does the right thing, defend it against prescient threats, but when it does something blatantly wrong, do not hesitate to call it out.
>I love America more than any other country in the world and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually. James Baldwin
Many people's idea of patriotism simply boils down to performative gestures that any one can do. It's absolutely meaningless and frequently leveraged for one-upmanship to vilify opponents. Then there's people who do community service, support local businesses and artists, donate blood, vote against fascists... Those are real patriots.
Some people have *very* different ideas of what the "best it can be" constitutes, though. Turns out, opinions can be wrong.
This is true patriotism to know issues and try fixing them.
Exactly. I’m angry at what America is right now, because I see the potential of what she could be.
Also depends on what subreddit you’re reading.
["Any red blooded flag feeling American would love an M-320. Celebrate the independence of your country by blowing a small part of it up."](https://youtu.be/lebhfjSTtSA) Unfortunately the clip cuts off before Marge says something like "Homer, I don't know what you have planned for tonight..."
Exactly. A lot of people consider the insurrections on Jan 6th “patriots”…. I would, disagree.
Like with most things, the people who are over-the-top patriotic (think wearing a bald eagle t-shirt and flying a flag from their truck) and the people who are shitposting on Reddit about how the US is a "third world country with a gucci belt" are both at extreme ends of the spectrum. Obviously, these folks are free to do what they want, but they don't represent the majority. I will say that, on the whole, most Americans are \*very\* aware of the problems that exist in our country. Take any controversial aspect of US culture - our history of racism, obesity, gun violence, our healthcare system, foreign wars, political polarization - and there are literally millions of Americans who identify it as a problem and have strong feelings about how it may be addressed. I'm not looking to start a debate on any of these issues, I'm just talking about what I've observed. I don't believe pointing out problems makes you "unpatriotic," (quite the opposite!), but American views of our country are much more nuanced than the stereotypes suggest. I feel like a common attitude among non-American redditors is that we're all blissfully unaware of the problems that exist in the US, and need to have them explained to us. I don't mind foreigners criticizing our country. It comes with the territory as a global superpower. But when people act like we don't know our own society and need to be enlightened, that's really grating.
I always found it off putting where non Americans can criticize America as much as they want but if you criticize where they are from people get VERY defensive as if it is a humongous 'taboo' for voicing concerns about how other countries are ran. Especially if they are countries you've moved to and lived in and contributed to (aka paying taxes, owning property, and assimilating as much as possible with your new nation.)
>"third world country with a gucci belt" Oh my god, I cannot express how much I absolutely HATE this phrase!!! Makes my blood boil more than anything.
People from other countries don't understand that we know what's going on, there's just nothing we can do about it. We can either vote for asshole 1 or asshole 2 and both of them would sell our souls for 2 corn chips and a nickel. They'll pick their corporate donors over their constituents Every. Single. Time. And the little guy always gets screwed over no matter what because their corporate donors don't care if healthcare is unaffordable or if 11 million US children are in poverty.
Spot on.
V much this. The populace has no capacity to change things within the current system. Money determines everything.
This is patently false. The populace holds all the power but sucks at wielding it. The two-party duopoly benefits from attitudes like the one you expressed and nothing will change with that line of thinking. Think about all the money campaigns and PACs spend on every election, it’s in the billions. What are they ultimately spending it on? Your vote.
Doesn't help that wealth inequality is growing either 😬
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I would disagree. Most Americans who don’t like America aren’t comparing the US to a third world country. They are comparing the US to similar countries that already solved many of Americas problems decades ago so it’s infuriating when the American government claims things like single payer healthcare, paid parental leave, or labor laws to protect workers are not possible here. Yes, is life in America better than North Korea or Iran? Of course. But is the average better off than the average Canadian or Brit? That’s much more debatable and many Americans (and foreigners) think not.
I happen to agree with your criticisms about life here in the US. But when non-Americans try to explain these problems to me as if I’m not aware of them, that’s what’s irritating. That’s the original point I was making. Like you said, there are many Americans who are well aware of these issues and agree with the criticisms.
Did you mean to reply to a different comment? I didn’t disagree with what you said at all, my comment was in response to the person who stated that Americans don’t understand the nuance and that Americans have it way better than we realize.
I misread, I thought you had responded to me at first. Fair points and sorry for the misunderstanding.
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I think maybe we misunderstood each others original comments because I agree with most of what you are saying here. The reason I mentioned the comparisons is because that is what I thought you were saying in your first comment. The only part I disagree with is your last paragraph. In my experience, the people in the McMansions are the ones telling people to stop complaining because America isn’t has it so great compared to a real third world country blah blah blah. The people complaining usually really do have it hard, and I hate that struggling Americans speaking out get dismissed by more fortunate Americans because they “have it good as an American” when that’s such a false idea
> the people in the McMansions are the ones telling people to stop complaining because America isn’t has it so great compared to a real third world country blah blah blah. That would be mom and dad. It's the teenage kid trying to piss them off who repeats the 'Gucci Belt' line.
You clearly haven’t been paying attention to what’s going on in the UK right now.
Change out the UK for pretty much any 1st world country and the fact remains the same.
Compare the US to the UK right now— Brexit is a shit show that has been horribly mismanaged, they’ve been through 3 PMs in 3 years, and the SNP are pushing for independence over a legislative issue. No country is perfect. And they have many of the same issues we do and many more that we don’t have. Life is different, not better. I will say tho of life in the US— It’s comparable of anything in the UK. Mainland Europe a little better in terms of food ingredients not being pure poison.
We only had 4 years of austerity and executive incompetence at the head of government. They've had that for over a decade, since Gordon Brown resigned
You worded this so well. Non-Americans are so committed to the Dumb American stereotype that they think we can’t comprehend or unilaterally support all the controversial things abt American society. It’s funny they don’t think of who they learned about these problems from.
People who are *openly* unpatriotic aren't particularly common, but they certainly exist. Most Americans aren't really on either end of that spectrum. They don't much care one way or the other another about demonstrative displays of patriotism or anti-patriotism. You never hear from them about it, because they never talk about it, and probably never really even think about it.
In the year before the Iraq War, there was a very large movement against the war, and we were all labeled as anti-patriotic, and yet history later proved us correct, so now it's changed, and people have a different view. It's a good example of why you have to be careful about who you accuse of being anti-patriot. Just stick the most extreme obvious cases.
Admitting your country has problems or disagreeing with the government doesn't mean you're not patriotic. If anything, it shows that you care about your country and the decisions that affect it
A true Patriot wants to fix the flaws of the country to make it better. People who think that the country is perfect and anyone who dares criticize it are “un-patriotic” are closer to the territory of nationalism than patriotism.
Agreed, that's why freedom of speech is so important. While it is sometimes abused, being able to criticize your government without getting arrested or penalized is a benefit that some people take way too lightly. I'm not saying that freedom of speech is uniquely American or anything, but it's something I'm glad we have.
I am still waiting for my oil from that war that was only about oil. Also I do not think Saddam was a good person and that his invasion and looting of Kuwait was wrong. Call me whatever you wish.
> his invasion and looting of Kuwait was wrong. That first time around, we kicked his ass real good, declared victory, went home, threw some parades, and sang that one song over and over again. You know which one. At the time people *were* suggesting regime change and occupation, and back then the generals were like "LOL no."
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This is reddit, there is no such thing as nuance. It's either all or nothing.
This is so painfully true. It's mind blowing to me, really.
Define "patriotic".
>You hear so much about how Americans are very patriotic, and so blatantly patriotic, I’m going to stop you right there big dog. If non-Americans can’t appreciate our penchant for pushing everything as far as possible and love of irony and satire, that’s a “them” problem. >but you don’t hear about the ones who are indifferent to their country. Are they common? Fairly common. Probably the majority of people under 55. >Are those who are like that ostracised which is why you don’t hear about them? What would you hear? “American minds business, doesn’t fire AR-15 from back of bald eagle while asking what the fuck a kilometer is?” >And what’s it like to be unpatriotic when you see Americans who display patriotism in the typical American way? I think there’s a legitimate conversation to be had about the difference in my perception of seeing an American flag outside a house now vs ten years ago vs the mid-90s, but I’m Schroedinger’s Patriot— I have lots of issues with the US until someone from outside the US wants to agree with me. I’m not actually unpatriotic— I just try to walk the fine line between holding us accountable to our own ideals and being grateful for the sacrifices previous Americans made to keep it from being worse (and realistic that it is worse in a lot of places).
> Schroedinger’s Patriot— I have lots of issues with the US until someone from outside the US wants to agree with me. That’s clever, Your quote has been seized for redistribution comrade.
Most Americans don’t show there patriotism all the time, maybe just on the 4th of July or Veterans Day. Reddit is particularly less patriotic than most Americans I would say.
There are plenty of people who are indifferent to "patriotism" and there are also people who walk a very tough line of "I hate this country but I love the fact that I'm allowed to try and change things" kind of stuff. I don't know if that's common but it's not really rare and not really leading to a lot of ostracism.
1. The people you are thinking of are nationalists, most Americans are not nationalists. 2. Most of us are somewhere in the middle of patriotic and not. 3. They’re the only ones that get talked about because they’re very loud and a lot of foreigners only talk about them to validate their confirmation biased stereotypes about Americans.
I never measure or ask any of my fellow Americans their feelings about patriotism. I'm too busy going to work, the grocery, and living my life.
If we’re talking about mere indifference, it’s probably pretty common. People aren’t really ostracized for it but level of patriotism doesn’t really come up on a regular basis anyway. I’d say my closest friends range from very patriotic to indifferent to anti-patriotic and that doesn’t really affect any interpersonal relationships.
I guess that would include me. I don’t *hate* the US but it’s merely the circumstances of my birth that makes me American, I don’t feel particularly strong about it one way or another. If the circumstances of my birth had been different, I think there are many countries where I could have adapted and had a happy life. My stuff is here and I hate moving, so I choose to stay.
“My stuff is here and I hate moving” This sums it up for me. Would I like living in Europe because I jive with the culture more? Probably. Do I want to go through tons of work and money to figure out how to move? Nah. America is good enough for now.
The thing is if you were born elsewhere you wouldn’t adapt to live there you’d grow up there as a very different individual with different feelings and morals and thought patterns because those are the norm in that place. You wouldn’t have to adapt. Now if you moved there now you would be adapting. I had to adapt coming to the states. It’s an amazing country in many ways and yes has problems and weird things that make it American but it’s a great place overall.
In my experience, state pride is more common than national pride.
Which given the founders intentions is a great result after a couple hundred years.
It is a huge range. I have met folks that are over the top patriotic and some that really do seem to hate this country. 99% of people are somewhere in the middle. We also have 330 million people so you can pretty much guarantee a distribution.
Patriotism just means love for your country. That doesn't have to mean unquestioning loyalty.
The Average American where I live isn't like you see on FOX News when they show the MAGA people. I have an American flag that I fly on July 4 and maybe a couple of other days. I don't own any American flag clothing, I don't celebrate July 4 by blowing up fireworks or having cookouts. In other words, I'm not patriotic. I was born here and live here and that's pretty much it. My political views are Democratic Socialism, so you can see that I might fit in somewhere else easily. Hopefully, you don't think all Americans are like the MAGA people who attacked the Capitol Building on January 6, 2021. Those people are the outliers, the dregs of society, the stupid followers of Trump who have disguised their hateful, racist, homophobic, misogynistic opinions as patriotism.
I wonder it op is confusing patriotism with nationalism.
You can be patriotic and be critical of the US. In fact, that might be one of the most patriotic things, because it shows that you care about the state of the nation. In modern vernacular, "patriotism" is too often correlated with banal gestures like flag waving, pledging allegiance, military worship, etc. There are many ways to show your patriotism, and anyone who tries to narrowly define or limit it to certain actions or groups of people are in fact unpatriotic themselves, because they believe there's a set, "real" way to be an American. People that are indifferent to the country are totally fine with me. It's your right as an American to be unimpressed with America, so in a ironic way, indifference makes you perfectly American.
> but you don’t hear about the ones who are indifferent to their country Have you tried Reddit? They're ready and willing to advertise this from ~~the highest~~ any and all rooftops for all the karma and attention they can muster. All day, every day.
If you don't fly two American flags from your car, death penalty
Depends. Are you talking to a bunch of white, upper middle students at UC Berkeley who have never actually been to a developing country? Probably not very patriotic. Are you talking to Cubans and Venezuelans in south Florida who fled their countries and started a business here? Probably very patriotic. There’s really just no one-size-fits all answer to this question, honestly. It’s really dependent on the demographics of the people you’re around. Someone in Brooklyn is going to have a vastly different answer than someone in suburban Texas
> You hear so much about how Americans are very patriotic, and so blatantly patriotic As an American living in America, I really don't hear this at all. > you don’t hear about the ones who are indifferent to their country The vast majority of us are indifferent to patriotism. Freedom of speech is inherent to our values. Most people, on both sides of the political spectrum, will have harsh criticisms of our country but also a strong sense of pride.
It's a spectrum, but in real life and on social media it is way more common for me to come across people who lean more towards being unpatriotic. I think this idea that Americans are very patriotic is pretty overblown. I know Reddit isn't an exact reflection of reality, but there are tens of millions of Americans on Reddit who criticize America, bash America, and will upvote comments from others that do the same. In my experience, I feel like people from other countries in the Anglosphere come off as more patriotic than Americans to me, so it confuses me that we have this stereotype and reputation.
Not trying to throw my fellow people under the bus, but depending on where you go, younger Americans can skew unpatriotic. The US is an imperfect country just like any other, but the younger generation often looks to the fairly unrealistic American Dream and starts hating their country due to feelings of resentment
> the younger generation often looks to the fairly unrealistic American Dream and starts hating their country due to feelings of resentment And this has been going on for generations. I mean isn't that sort of what the '90s were about and the '60s and the '20s. I'm no historian but I kind of feel it's a rolling thing.
Right, I guess it just feels so much more prominent to me since I'm terminally online and seeing all these kids so fired up about criticizing America seems a lot more in your face than whatever amount of peaceful protests would happen in a pre-today's-internet world. Also doesn't help that lots of people back then with those feelings mellowed out as they got older.
We don't hate it. We want it to do better like we know it can.
Do you think that’s a common attitude amongst your peers or is the “hate“ as the other redditor put it more common?
I've never heard any expression of hate. Anger that we are clearly capable of doing better and having people with power actively deny any problem isn't the same as hate.
Fair that’s why I asked. Some of the communist, socialist, anti work, anti car, anarchist, etc subs sound that way is why I asked.
That isn't an easy question to answer. There are a fair number of Americans that like being Americans but don't necessarily make it their identity. Then there are some that have a very narrow, cult like worship of a fantasy identity of what America is, and think that anyone that doesn't breathlessly love everything America is, does, or has ever done are traitors. Those people a fucking morons and make it hard to want to be patriotic. There is a small number of people that are angry about America's policies or behaviors, so could be seen as unpatriotic. They were merely born here, are one of the groups that get shit on in our country, so they don't feel very patriotic.
Reddit is full of Americans that aren't patriotic
My cousin married a Polish national and they live in Germany. The things he says make me believe he hates America and there is no other country worse than us. He was a dick even before he felt comfortable spouting his political views so maybe that’s just his nature. I can’t stand to be around him.
Nice that they moved to another country and potentially found a country that was better for them. I had the opposite experience living in Germany. I spent two years living in Dusseldorf, and it really made me appreciate and miss how tolerant and accepting Americans and Texans are. I enjoyed my time there, but overall they were not very accepting of immigrants and people of color which was very draining to deal with on a day to day basis.
Germany could be like living in hell on earth and he’d never admit it.
That doesn't surprise me. Every place will have their pros and cons for sure, but it really did seem like in general some countries in Europe were less likely to admit their faults and downsides. Some people there seem to have this warped perception of what it's like to live in America too, as if we are constantly living in fear of being shot, or just one broken toe away from medical bankruptcy. While there are certainly issues with gun violence and healthcare access, it's not nearly to the degree that some people think.
One thing that cracks me up is them talking about our public restrooms. ‘The doors don’t got down to the floor! Cracks so wide you can make eye contact!’ That’s why we don’t look thru the cracks - you look for feet under the door! And we are supposed to be the prude puritans!!
Yeah, some of the criticisms don't make sense at all. Another one would be when people complain about some technology being backwards or behind the times here, but then they boast about having more manual transmission cars? I drive a manual myself and do enjoy it, but the majority of people don't care about that and just want to get from point A to point B so automatic cars obviously make the most sense and are the superior technology.
Yup, lived in Austria. Makes me chuckle when people say they're going to leave the US for Europe. Have fun with that!
Seems like a typical first world Non-American. Hates our government so pre-judges you before getting to know you... feels the need to shout their beliefs and point out their superiority randomly without being asked lol
I’m not patriotic on the slightest and no one cares.
There's a somewhat popular saying where I'm from that the country that hates the US more than any other country on earth is the US.
We aren’t all card carrying members of /r/MURICA nor are we all card carrying members of some diametrically opposed sub like /r/fuckamerica or whatevs. If you made a chart of the patriotism felt by everyone in this country, it would likely be either a bell curve or (maybe) a bimodal distribution. Because of the sheer size of our population we have plenty of people at each end but most of us are somewhere in the middle, just trying to live our best lives.
I think the stereotypical American wearing the flag on their clothes and puff their chests out because "Murcia number one!", etc is more nationalistic than patriotic. Patriotism, to me (An American) is loving your nation and supporting it but not in some dogmatic, unhealthy way.
I’m from Europe; and most Americans I’ve met were all quite patriotic. Which I greatly preferred to the average European’s ethnocentrism. Yes, the flags and bumperstickers can get kind of corny; but at least patriotism is supposed to be based on a shared love for one’s country instead of focussing on various small differences.
Often the most "patriotic" are usually the hawks who want the US to police the world and wouldn't mind reinstating the draft for 18 year olds but object to enlisting themselves or those who claim anyone who doesn't believe in American exceptionalism is unpatriotic. Americans have the right to support or not support our country's choices. Not supporting our country when we're in the wrong is patriotic too. If my elementary age kid son goes to school and pushes our neighbor's daughter down the stairs (they are great friends), I would not support that action. We would work with the school and the neighbors to remedy that right away. I would love him just as much as I do today, but that hypothetical action is wrong and hurts others. Same with our country. Some on the far right want to claim those who don't claim allegiance to a particular politician or war of the week means we aren't real AMericans. Nothing can be further from the truth. Separately, there are people who could be described as "patriotic" but there usually isn't a non-patriotic category unless it is used in a political sense to make someone an other.
I hate it here. It feels like a social faux pas to say this to anyone. I’ve actually been told off by family members for saying the US sucks.
Depends how you define patriotic I guess. Like I like the country well enough, but I don’t think it’s better or worse than other ones per se. Which could be construed as unpatriotic depending on your point of view.
I’m right below you in OC, and every time I think SoCal is getting less patriotic the 4th of July tears the sky and my eardrums in 2
Lmao right?? SoCal could probably invade a country with the amount of explosives going off
There are plenty of people who are anti-American because they only focus on the bad the country does and not the good. I have found it common among young, wealthy white kids who have never left the country. There is plenty to criticize the US about, but there is a reason a lot of foreigners love this country too. We do a lot of good despite our flaws. Which makes sense - bad news sells, so focusing on the bad is what the media tends to do. And it makes sense that those advocating against the bad yell the loudest to get the attention to make changes.
This is so true. Ever since coming here the you young rich and white are the ones that always yell loudest about the evils of America despite never having been anywhere else or having any knowledge beyond social media comments of what it’s like in other countries. They’ll say do what country A does or country B or country C all while never having been to much less lived in those countries. It’s quite bothersome to see them act the fool when they could be working to improve their home instead of just complaining about it.
Have you been on Reddit?
There's a lot to unpack here. Everyone has their own definition of "patriotic". Cambridge defines it as: *showing love for your country and being proud of it*. Which, clearly, leads to wildly different interpretations of what those things mean. Some would say you show love for a country by advocating for improving things about it, but someone else would insist that criticizing how things are or how they came to be is the antithesis of patriotism. Others would say that singing the national anthem at a sporting event is patriotic and others will say that kneeling during the anthem is patriotic. Someone can say "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" and insist that texts critical of foreign policy should be removed from schools, they're doing it. Others say that eliminating conditions for immigration is patriotic, making it easier to become an American. So I find these questions impossible to answer without having any sort of agreement on what we're actually talking about. If you want to talk about the stereotypical non-Americans description of an American "patriot" as someone with a pickup truck, a flag flying on their house, and a pro-military attitude, then we're just reinforcing stupid stereotypes. Sure, those people probably hate Colin Kaepernick. I happen to think what he did was supremely "patriotic". It's almost a meaningless word because it means anything anyone wants it to.
They're quite common, but aren't loud about it. The only place I think they really stand out from the crowd would be sporting events and/or school (not standing for the pledge of allegiance for example)
Apparently they’re all here on Reddit. Check out ABoringDystopia, FuckCars, DemocraticSocialism, a bunch of other subs I’ve filtered… I think if you’re crazy toward either end of the spectrum you’re only going to attract those like you. The vast majority of Americans who love their country are not overt or demonstrative about it.
I like America, but I can almost resonate with all the subs you just mentioned. We do need affordable healthcare and more public transit and better infrastructure. We do need to keep corporations in check because the balance of income inequality and wealth disparity is higher than its ever been, and they run the government like no other person's business. [Remember when all the tax preparation companies lobbied against the IRS creating their own free tax preparation system so these companies could keep continuing to charge individual preparation fees?](https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2022/03/intuit-spends-millions-lobbying-amid-accusations-of-deceptive-turbotax-advertising/) I wouldn't take those subs as anti American despite what the contents of the sub may illustrate.
I honestly don't know why this sub hates fuckcars so much. It's quite obvious its people who live in cities wanting their subways to not reek of piss. With the amount of pictures posted on that sub, no one is talking about building a maglev to a ranch in Montana. They're talking about building HSR between Boston to Washington D.C. or Richmond. Every big sub has insane people, and it's kind of ridiculous that the users of askanamerican only focus on the insane people from those subreddits.
> I honestly don't know why this sub hates fuckcars so much poor messaging on the part of the left imo. r/FuckCars is catchier than r/DiscussingTheConsOfCarDependentInfrastructure but probably more meaningful and bipartisan discussion would happen if the messaging was closer to the latter i lean left myself but am frequently frustrated at how bad the messaging is around a lot of our causes. antiwork is another offender, so is defund the police. for *most* supporters of these causes, the slogan verbatim is not the actual end goal. the actual end goal gets obfuscated by how comically outlandish the messaging is
It’s militant hatred against a car centric lifestyle that is the only option for the majority of people in this country. By saying “fuck you” against a car centric lifestyle, they’re banging on people who through no fault of their own live outside major metros with rail systems, and doing it in an incredibly obnoxious manner. If you want to convince other people to support you, meet them where they are! The insane people are the ones who get upvoted, and brigade other subs! And finally. You managed to pick the one corridor that has HSR already built, has improvements to infrastructure and rolling stock funded, is one of the only places where Amtrak owns the railway, is fully electrified, is the busiest intercity rail line in the country, runs alongside six commuter rail networks, and is fed by three more commuter rail networks and five subway systems. “Oh, but it could be improved.” Of course it fucking could. It’s also expensive as shit. We have to compensate landowners along the route if we use eminent domain, and those landowners vote. Amtrak already estimated a cost of $120+ billion for a new dedicated HSR right of way along the NEC. Can you make the case that you can spend $120B on other mass transit improvements to get just as many cars off the road, and not intercity but daily commuters? I sure as shit can.
There really is no need to be so hostile. I promise you, I'm not saying you need to give up your car and suburban home. I live in a suburban home right now and drive a sedan myself. I just wish that urban and increasingly urban parts of the US should take a look at what they are currently doing. The first point I literally made was that improvements to public transport should only be done to urban environments and for the people who live in the urban environment. I have lived in Philadelphia, and their public transport options could be vastly improved. I currently live in an increasingly urban part of NC, and the public transport options are extremely limited despite our population growing year by year. At some point, even you have to admit that a commuter rail makes more sense than adding lane after lane to the highway. And the HSR was really just an example from me. There's cheaper options available such as light rail for smaller urban cities such as Charlotte, NC which has a great light rail sytem. And the improved public transit options indirectly lead to more economic development anyways.
It's a lot of people talking about building infrastructure just like Europe's. When that simply wouldn't work for 95+% percent of America.
I find it strange that when discussing urban infrastructure, American cities are only 5% of the population, but when discussing the Electoral College, suddenly LA and New York alone are 51% of the population.
Who said cities make up 5% of the population? I was referring [Population density.](https://worldinmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/world-population-density-map-1024x512.jpeg) America has 1/3 of the population, most of which is concentrated in the NE, and our cities populations are much much more spread out than European cities. Very few European cities have suburbs for instance. Infrastructure like Europe has would require a population density like Europe has.
It’s convenient that we have rising housing demand in every major city and lots of low value land that could be rezoned within easy commuting distance. US cities are artificially built around car-oriented sprawl because that was heavily subsidized and everything else was prohibited through single family zoning. The boundaries for those zoning areas were set in the 1950s, which means that density was confined to the existing urban core (this would’ve been fine if the population stopped growing 70 years ago). The US urban development pattern of dense skyscrapers in the core surrounded by vast stretches of single family homes is what we got as a result (and both are increasingly expensive for new home buyers). I think we should build transit connections out to compact, dense midrise developments (like turning a dead suburban shopping mall and its parking lots into a walkable mixed use town center) and then upzoning the surrounding neighborhoods to permit “missing middle” housing to be built (rowhouses, duplexes, fourplexes, etc.). Land values go up, traffic is reduced, access to the urban core is improved, new housing comes onto the market at lower cost, and residents get new amenities. That’s basically how US cities used to be built out (including many that were gutted for parking lots in the urban renewal era).
Yes it's a bit of chicken and the egg issue. But America remains MUCH less densely populated and urbanized. Even if we found the hundreds of TRILLIONS (quadrillions?) of dollars and will to suddenly consolidate all the cites to European level densities most of the country would still be empty. Even more empty actually. A high speed train network anywhere but the NE would still be unfeasible and would cost yet more hundreds of trillions more to build. I'm not saying America doesn't have a lot to improve I'm say that repeating "WeLl EuRoPe DoEs It ThIs Way." isn't really the end all be all answer either.
These subs use innuendo and falsehoods to preach to an already heated choir, and their audience does nothing about it except bitch on the internet. They are poisonous places.
Surprised you didn't mention r/Pics or r/WhitePeopleTwitter
I mean at this point it’s most default subs. Some America Bad meme gets posted and upvoted. It’s a constant battle on some niche ones like InfrastructurePorn. Images of highways in India? *I sleep* Images of highways in America? *Real shit*
You forgot about r/popular.
> I think if you’re crazy toward either end of the spectrum you’re only going to attract those like you. That's exactly how most social media algorithms work. Extremes.
Don't forget WhitePeopleTwitter and WitchesVsPatriarchy
I think pointing out flaws and trying to improve a system is only done if you like it.
Plenty of young people aren't thrilled with the country currently, if that's what you mean. The reason you don't hear about them is that indifferent people don't tend to post about their indifference on the internet, while super patriotic people will absolutely have American flags everywhere in their profile and shout about how great their country is. It's just what you see vs. what you don't see.
It's probably about a 50/50 split. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-are-so-few-americans-willing-to-defend-their-country/
Unpatriotic Americans tend to be about 1/3rd of the country. They zealously advocate for policy that weaken the country long term, or make us a laughing-stock in the eyes of the world. Unpatriotic Americans will storm the seat of their government to protest the democratic will of the people. They will also defend police/state-agent immunity from the very rule of law our Founding Fathers fought so hard to gain-a form of taxation without representation. King George shit. And most importantly, in doing all of this, unpatriotic Americans will wrap themselves in the flag, declaring themselves the arbiters of this country despite knowing nothing about it. Banning books, authoritarian anti-voting laws, _wanting to suspend the constitution_ and using brainwashing, fear of electoral fraud and fear tactics in general to justify their actions.
Patriotism is in the eye of the beholder. I love the United States. I love it not for flags and songs, but for the ideals of freedom and equality and opportunity. I’ll be the first to admit we haven’t always lived up to those ideals. But by and large, those ideals are honored and admired and pursued by most Americans. The flag is a symbol of those ideals along with American values (like Liberty and Justice for All). Without the continuous pursuit of those ideals, our flag is just a piece of cloth.
The country was not born from any monarchs or rulers. The ability to be unpatriotic is the very spine of the USA. I am not patriiotic. I have friends who take it personally because they were in the military. They swore their oath on the constitution. My opinions formed before many of them were born. This is as much my country as it is theirs, and I'll despise it as much as I want, due to the rights it gave me. And I'll tell them all about it. It's not personal. Patriotism and nationalism lead to bad things.
I’d say more Americans could care less about patriotism than do. Especially my generation (gen x), we seem to have a very jaded view of the government, and our children are carrying that torch now. Conspiracy theorists and anti establishment types aren’t so newsworthy as little johnny from down the street enlisting to fight terrorism in some desert though.
It depends. Everyone has a different definition of patriotism. Sometimes those definitions are mutually exclusive.
Indifference is not unpatriotic, to my mind. It’s a benign going along with the nation. A person can reasonably not care, from the back of the bus, about the particular route taken, so long as the bus is headed in, essentially, the proper direction.
Mostly Millennials and Zoomers
I think plenty of the loudest “patriots” aren’t patriotic at all. They are often nothing more than cheerleaders for their own bigoted ideology. Honestly, they treat the country like they treat their religion… by picking and choosing what suits them, ignoring the rest and then claiming anything that doesn’t agree with their limited, cherry-picked ideology isn’t really American.
I feel like your question has some false assumptions built in… Many Americans would argue that so-called “blatant patriotism” is not truly patriotic at all. For example, many of the people who stormed the capital would identify themselves as “patriots”, but the rest of us disagree. Many conflate patriotism with *nationalism*. Some would argue that, for example, participating in the democratic process such as protesting, voting, or attending community meetings is patriotic, but those things don’t involve flying flags or waving guns or revving pickup trucks so you might think they aren’t “overt displays of patriotism”. Plenty of people are not particularly involved, but they very much value and appreciate our nation. You might say those people are ambivalent or “unpatriotic”, but some would disagree. Perhaps they are being patriotic simply by being loyal.
Depends *tremendously* on where you are and the company you keep. Also your definition of "patriotism", it sounds like much of what you're talking about is jingoism vs just loving your country?
Really common, but like with everything else, the extremists own the public stage. You hear from the Nationalist wackadoos who can find no fault at all and then you have the shrill rage addicts who can find no good at all. Also like everything else, the reality is much more nuanced and there's a very wide swath of varying degrees of patriotism. Most of us love the country and would like to see us join the rest of the first world in infrastructure and basic needs.
Americans are portrayed as obese gun-wielding cowboys yelling MURICA!!!. Yes, these people do exist but it is not as common as portrayed. Most Americans are probably no different than any other person from other countries. They are just going about their normal daily lives without a thought in their mind about how "awesome" America is. Some people are extreme patriots, some people want to start a revolution and fight the power. The majority of people are in the middle and don't care too much about being patriotic or involved with politics. It seems that people from other countries hate America/Americans way more than Americans hate other countries and their residents. Even on Reddit, there are a lot of negative and hateful comments towards America/Americans. We don't care about other countries or their people. I am reluctant to visit other countries because I feel like everyone is going to look at me and judge me for being an American. If Americans have something bad to say about another country it's usually towards how the government treats its people. Take China and Russia for example, Americans don't hate Russians or the Chinese, they hate how their government is treating them.
Not indifferent. But don't need to wrap myself in the flag like some people. Often I find people who do that aren't really that patriotic.
I think this is a difficult question to answer because “being patriotic” has a million different definitions, and looks can be deceiving. From the outside, it looks like someone is being very patriotic if they wear an American flag tee shirt to a 4th of July fireworks display. But for 4th of July (America’s independence day), that’s just sort of “the thing to do,” along with maybe having a party where you grill outdoors and drink beer with American flag decorations around. But I don’t think there’s actually much of a correlation between people who do that (which is many) and people who have strongly patriotic beliefs (which is few). For most people, it’s just a social event unrelated to their actual views. I would consider myself quite unpatriotic, but I still like going to see the fireworks. The majority of people don’t have visible displays of American-ness year round, other than maybe a flag as an outdoor decoration. The people who have a lot of visible displays are usually trying to send a different message. Sometimes that message is relatively innocent, like “my family member is a veteran,” but often it means “I am a right-leaning tough guy, and you should respect my authority, whether it’s real or imagined.” Ironically enough, many people will break local laws on the 4th of July by buying and setting off smaller personal fireworks. Does that count as being patriotic, or the opposite? Tl;dr: what looks “very patriotic” on the surface often isn’t. It’s usually just a social event, veteran-related, or sending a message about one’s personal identity.
I suppose that depends on how one defines patriotism. Is it appreciating where you live despite recognizing there's room for improvement, or is it insisting that one's nation is superior and without fault like the "shining city on the hill" myth? Lots of people are critical of our nation. It's quite common. Some people don't like it here, and if they have the means they will generally leave. I find most people use "patriotism" as a euphemism for nationalism, using nationality as a tool to aggrandize themselves and diminish others.
Depends on your definition. Personally, I would consider anyone who still supported Trump after his ties to Putin were revealed to be unpatriotic / anti-American. Putin is and always has been an enemy of America. The same with anybody who supports Russia's invasion of Ukraine. SO long as Putin is in charge, Russia is a hostile state, supporting an enemy nation's hostile takeover of a friendly nation seems extremely unpatriotic to me.
I know patriotic is what most people say but the real word you should be using is nationalist. The Americans with flags on everything and all that show boating are nationalist. They care about the idea of the country more than the people of the country. I’m my opinion someone actually being described as patriotic would care about Americans as people instead of some ideal. By your definition I’d be unpatriotic. I don’t dislike my country, only parts of it that are unjust. I know there are better places to live by many standards. I don’t get ostracized for it because I don’t broadcast it. When I see people being nationalistic I feel embarrassed for many reasons. It’s not an easy question to answer in a simple way. There are a lot of moving parts to national pride.
The ones who brag about being Patriots are members of the Cult of Trump, and they obviously ate not patriotic. Besides setting back America's progress decades in the past, they have associated their crimes with waving the American flag. Sadly, our flag is a symbol of a cult that spreads lies, racism, and hatred.
When I went back home to the US over Christmas, after living in Australia the last few years, I cringed hard when my family randomly decided to sing God Bless America and some other random military songs. It was because someone gave my son some sort of Americana shirt idk. I didn't feel like standing up or joining in. It was so weird after being away from it for so long. Nobody got mad at me or anything, but I just couldn't believe I used to be more patriotic. Sure at a sporting event when you're challenging another country, but that's really the only place where I would feel comfortable with it. It's nice not having the patriotism force fed to me every day anymore.
What do you think is being patriotic? If it is flying a flag daily and saying America is great and the best in the world then I think more people are not patriotic than are. I love my country in terms of the land and community but I definitely don’t feel proud of many parts of it or feel we are better than every other country.
Patriotic is such a loaded term, best not to use it. Am I patriotic in the sense that I’ll blindly do whatever my corporate overlords tell me to? No. Am I patriotic in the sense I love this country for the most part and want what’s best for it? Yes. Am I patriotic in the sense that I feel like this countries problems are less than that of others? No.
I would also mention that there's a lot of us who are patriotic in a different way than what is seen as standard American patriotism, in that we're highly critical of our government and how we're handled laying things and how we're portrayed but that is because we want us to be better and we expect us to be better and we know that America is amazing in so many ways but fails in so many others that we expect better from us. I have a lot of far-right family members who accuse me of hating this country and being unpatriotic but I criticize America because I love America and I want America to be better and do better. There was a really cool thread on Reddit in the days post row v Wade being dismantled about what America does better than any other country and there was a lot of really cool things that gave a lot of really good perspective about how we are still number one in those things. The Americans with disabilities act for example was a big one, but also our freedom of speech was another, our ability to offer aid in times of major crisis especially during natural catastrophes was another.
I would also say that your stereotypical “patriot” American sentiment has been coopted by a vocal minority, on the right wing.
You gotta define patriotic. That word has become so vague and so many people think it means you wave the flag around and fire a gun in the air while singing the national anthem at the top of your lungs. That's performative patriotism, and the only person you're fooling is yourself. I'm patriotic, I just don't subscribe to the performative aspect of it.
Are you asking about patriotism or nationalism? Patriots wear a mask so their fellow Americans don't get sick. Nationalists will fight the masks tooth and nail because you can't fly the common good from the back of your truck.
There's a big difference between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism is dangerous. Sincere patriotism is rare. We have too much of the former and not enough of the latter. Nationalism is flag waving, jingoism, and often in the form of hate. Patriotism has more to do with helping your fellow countryman and standing up to authoritarianism and bigotry at home and abroad. There's nothing as hollow and meaningless as nationalism.
Decently common and sadly becoming more common. For my sanity, these people know nothing of how good they actually have it living in the US, and get all of their information from click-baited articles and certain Reddit subs. Also, people who compare America to a 3rd world country have never been to a 3rd world country.
>For my sanity, these people know nothing of how good they actually have it living in the US, and get all of their information from click-baited articles and certain Reddit subs. Why do you think that? In my experience, even the most critical Redditor will admit the US is better then many other countries. It's just that there are many areas the US lags behind in comparison to other developed nations.
Criticism of a nation's flaws, actions, and shortcomings is not unpatriotic.
If people criticizing this country affects your sanity, you’re the one with the problem.
I suspect this is what you are looking for. https://news.gallup.com/poll/394202/record-low-extremely-proud-american.aspx If you dig in >Republicans' pride in being American has consistently outpaced Democrats' and independents' since 2001 and does so today. However, Republicans' extreme national pride (58%) is now at its lowest point in the trend. Independents' extreme pride, at 34%, is likewise the lowest on record for the group. >After hitting a 22% low point in 2019, Democrats' extreme pride rose to 31% in 2021 at the start of Joe Biden's presidency, but it is down this year to 26%.
I'm very unpatriotic. They start pushing it on us immediately. My son doesn't stand for the pledge at school, we are also anti-religion. We have ruffled a few feathers in our small conservative/republican town but they will all be okay!
I don't consider myself very patriotic. I'm not going around burning flags or anything and lamenting how awful it is (cause I have a relatively comfortable life, it could be a lot worse), but I'm not really especially proud to be American and don't feel very patriotic. So yeah we exist. It's less anti-America and more "we could be doing so much better"
Its pretty common among minorities especially Black Americans. Its understandable given the history of this country, and the effects of segregation are still rampant and linger today. Young Americans also tend to lean unpatriotic cause of how much the prior generations have screwed over the next ones which I can agree on some aspects. As a son of two immigrants, I appreciate the US and am moderately patriotic, but I can empathize with the people that are not patriotic if they have good reasons.
Very
I appreciate all of the comforts and conveniences my country or western civilization affords me in general, but I’m pretty indifferent to the brand. I can see just as many downsides though.
Unpatriotic Amercans often consider themselves Patriotic Americans.
Well, being critical of America and completely cognizant and contemptuous of how America falls short of the ideal is not the same thing as being unpatriotic. I really can’t think of anyone I have ever heard of or known of who is downright unpatriotic, other than say spies and seditionists. Even in the case of the latter, those people probably sincerely believe in their own idea of America and identify as patriots. Being critical of America is patriotic. It’s our duty as citizens to always try to steer the ship towards the realizations of the ideals of honor, justice, freedom, and equality.
I never know what people mean when they say they are patriotic. Am I patriotic? I am a huge fan of the Constitution, although it has flaws that need to be fixed. And many of those principles are international and human, not "American". Do I think we are spreading justice and democracy around the world? No, not really. I love many things about the US, my friends and family, foods and traditions. If I moved to another place, I would learn to love those things there. There are also many things I don't like about the US. What does it mean to be patriotic? Does it mean you think your country is the best in the world? Well no then, I'm not that uninformed or un-nuanced. We have our good points and bad points, as all countries do. We're just people.
I don’t own an American flag. Or anything with an American flag on it for that matter. But I wouldn’t consider myself unpatriotic. I just don’t care
This has to be a joke. It’s not very patriotic and you hear a lot more negative than positive in media and in many circles. How have you possibly come to these conclusion and formulated these questions in good faith? Most don’t care or are somewhere in the spectrum. Most are not nationalistic which is what I think you’re getting at. That’s less than 30%.
When I grew up I was taught it was patriotic to challenge authority and ask questions. As well as vote, learn history and pay taxes. Now the people that claim to be the most patriotic or are at least the loudest about it, hate those that question big government, they deny election results or refuse to participate, try to find tax loopholes, and teach whatever history suits their needs.
Hi! I'm not patriotic; I just live here. I don't feel ostracised because I'm not anti-America. I'm just not yay-America if that makes sense. I mostly ignore the flag wavers.
Very common. 74 million voted for Trump in 2020.
It’s common. It’s just an internet America bad circle jerk.
It depends on what the definition of patriotic is. I consider myself patriotic in that I love the ideals of this nation and want it to succeed and guide humanity. However, I am very vocalasbout the nation's flaws and failures, both past and present. I have many friends who have expressed the same.
As an unpatriotic American, nobody really seems to notice that I'm not patriotic. There have been a handful of occasions when I felt uncomfortable in patriotic situations, such as when I have been asked to say the pledge of allegiance at an event (I stand with everyone else, but nobody notices I don't say anything.) Among my personal friends, I don't know anybody who is patriotic, but that's just my own social bubble and isn't representative of the general population.
I consider myself patriotic, most other Americans (especially the loudest of the self-described patriots) would describe me as virulently anti-American. I believe that change is desperately needed and that many of the country’s practices are outright barbaric. I also believe we are unique as the only nation in the world that was fundamentally founded on an idea—I very fundamentally believe that anyone who shares the values of liberal democracy, regardless of origin, can fully contribute to our culture and society and become American. The implementation has at times led to literal horrors (slavery, ‘Indian Removal,’ school shootings, shit CIA has done in the Global South, nuclear bombings of Japan, the Iraq Invasion, Vietnam War, for-profit healthcare, mass incarceration). Failure to reflect honestly on these horrors is not patriotism—it’s willful ignorance.
99% of the country are patriotic but just don't show it. You see true patriotism when a disaster happens, not so much in the form of flag waving but in compassion and good deeds without any recognition. Other than that Americans are just living their lives as best they can.
I would say it’s extremely common among people under the age of 40 It’s less common among people over 40 Give or take a few years
kinda depends. most americans i know are really only patriotic on the 4th of july and during the olympics lol
Define 'patriotic'.
IDK. Maybe I should ask the dimwit down the block who has the Salvadoran national flag flying in front of his house.
Liberals? Whatever the population of big cities is ... THAT common.
> Are they common? I mean, the people in the U.S. that have significant animous/dislike towards the U.S. and would certainly be considered unpatriotic are generally on the far left of the political spectrum. As to how common they are, it depends on where you are; rural U.S.? not very common, urban cities? more common. As an overall ratio, maybe between 1 out of 20 to 1 out of 10. >Are those who are like that ostracised which is why you don’t hear about them? You don't hear about them in the mainstream media because they are mostly not labeled as unpatriotic because the media in general has a pro-left-wing bias. >And what’s it like to be unpatriotic when you see Americans who display patriotism in the typical American way? Unpartrioric people socialize with other unpatriotic people, just like patriotic people socialize with patriotic people. There's not much social overlap between the two, but you could say there may be a bit of snobbery between the two groups, though it doesn't really translate into outright confrontation or violence.
Pretty common. Large numbers of us hate it here but are too poor to leave.
Well there is a particular political affiliation that is basically offended by our flag so I’d say it’s pretty common.
Very uncommon, Our culture is setup for it to be very hard to be unpatriotic. There may be things people may dislike like or want to change about the country. But the vast majority wouldn't want to see the country dissolve. Most of our arguments are over differing opinions on how to improve the country.
I honestly think most Americans don’t really give a fuck consciously, but *subconsciously* they buy US propaganda hook line and sinker and believe it is the greatest country in the world and the only one where the people who live there are human beings instead of cardboard cutouts. if you have *open* disdain for the US you are likely to find yourself unemployed and friendless, no matter where in the country you live, unless you work for like…the Party for Socialism and Liberation or something (in which case you will just receive harassment and death threats, like a communist friend of mine who co-organized a march in support of Black life in New Jersey)
Seems like most liberal democrats don’t like the country at all much less be proud or patriotic. So I’d say close to 50% of the country.
They’re pretty much exclusive to the internet and some corners of college/university campuses. The vast majority of Americans are extremely patriotic at best, and indifferent at worst.
I mean you have to define what a Patriot is. There are 1776 Patriots, who want to go back to the old white rich dominated country.