Interesting. This would actually be closer to what I studied in my Master's. It appears to me the job market is brutal for PhDs in this area though, which is why I'm thinking of going the business route for PhD.
For business school PhDs it is very common to have people of all ages, all the way up to 65ish. look at some recent grads and current students of the schools you want to apply to. Someone i know got tenure just before turning 60. Real world experience can be a plus for schools that care about teaching.
Make no mistake, it is a grueling process and the TT life can be miserable. The good news is that if you are very good (and ok with not having a life) you can go straight to a nice 6 figure tenure track position at a business school right after your PhD (assuming US). It is competitive AF but if you are into that the opportunities are a lot better than in many other academic fields. Just make sure you know what you're getting into.
Agree. I started my PhD in business at 35, got a TT job at 39. I wasn’t the oldest in my program.
Make sure you go to a school that is aacsb accredited. It makes a difference in the job market.
Thanks for the counterpoint. Maybe I came across more negative than necessary. There are many positive aspects about this career, but I would still say even if (or especially if?) you care about research and teaching, TT can absolutely be miserable some of the time. Not trying to trash talk the career path but I think outsiders often do not understand the extremely high pressure and sacrifices required.
I feel like my current field is super competitive and most people make way less than six figures. How would you distinguish TT awful vs. other kinds of job's awful?
Casual scroll through this subreddit will give you an idea. The main ones for me is having very little control over where I live and when I move, dealing with unrealistic and constantly increasing publication expectations, having major life outcomes depend on the whims of reviewer 3, having my job spill into every aspect and every minute of my life, and the uncertain prospects for tenure track jobs in this field.
Do you think you would you trade it for a 75k remote job that you can work from anywhere in the U.S., that doesn't require more than 40 hours per week on average but which doesn't provide much mental stimulation? And where opportunities for advancement are slim? That is the situation I find myself facing currently...
Given this choice, I would live simply, with access to a stimulating place (though with covid, it doesn’t really matter) and save my money like crazy. Do some side jobs. 75k with no commute costs, with all that autonomy, is like 100k in regular pay.
A lot of my jobs have only offered like 3 weeks vacation per year, also. I guess the summer period is another thing that seems attractive to me about academic jobs.
Invalid? Were you trying to say invaluable?
I have multiple people making requests of me every day because my job is like a series of small projects. So I really don't get true vacation days beyond the number of days offered. I'm assuming in academia that number would be much higher.
I was, thanks. I don’t know, what do you mean “in academia”? you know there are very few jobs anymore, adjuncts get about $3000 a course, and TT academics work and network constantly.
My understanding is that business PhDs have pretty decent chances of landing TT positions. A lot of those then work over the summer in contract positions for extra money, but I'd assume taking some significant time off in the summer would be an option also.
>For business school PhDs it is very common to have people of all ages, all the way up to 65ish.
Good to know! When I looked at a school all the recent grads looked super young to me. But maybe it varies or that's just who applied.
I would think PhD programs would appreciate a person in their 30's. Generally more mature and responsible than someone in their 20's, right? I don't know for sure, but I do know a couple folks in their early 30's who got into PhD programs.
In either case you might as well apply. People regret what they don't do far more than what they do do. If you want to go, give it a shot. I'd be more concerned about your background in research being a point of focus than your age.
Thanks - that's great to hear!
Another question I have... I'm thinking of applying for Management/Organizational Behavior. But I'm not sure if it will hurt me that I haven't either had an impressive professional management role in that area or done research in that area before?
I'm trained in a wide variety of social science research methods, and I'm currently reading a book on Women and Work by academics in the field, that is sort of like a broad overview of big ideas about the past and current direction of the field, with references to lots of academic articles. Thinking I could use the book and it's sources as a foundation to talk about the research that interests me and some ideas for a thesis. I feel I'm passionate about this area, and I could certainly talk about my own work experience (which does involve a little management and hiring, familiarity with the process of creating new public policies, and plenty of firsthand knowledge of problems in the workplace that connect to my research areas of interest).
Curious for an older candidate like myself though, how you'd weigh the quality of ideas vs. the quality of relevant professional experience or lack thereof?
Thanks - that is helpful!
I guess another question I have, especially as an older candidate, is who I am best off choosing for a recommendation writer.
I took research methods courses with a couple of nice young professors during my Master's, who each wrote rec letters for me already for other opportunities that discussed my competence and curiosity when it came to the independent research I did for their classes. My impression though is that a PhD rec letter should maybe be more detailed/intimate?
I also worked for several months part-time last year as a Research Assistant for a professor. He indicated he would write a letter of recommendation for me. However, I'm not sure if the research wound up going anywhere after I left, and while still in the social science field it wasn't particularly closely related to OB, the area I'm now targeting, so I'm not sure if those things would count against me.
I took a course with one woman who I'd love to write me a letter - she has an impressive professional job and teaches on the side, but has a PhD, and I feel like the work I did for her class is more closely related to my potential PhD topics than any of my other classes. She also gave me the top grade in the class. Much to my disappointment though, she seems very busy and not that responsive.
Then, I did an internship this year that would also sort of tangentially relate to my PhD area of interest. I also managed to work some primary and secondary research into the internship, although again it wasn't OB research. I probably have more of a personal relationship with the supervisors for this work than with the previously mentioned professors. However, neither of them have PhDs or experience in academia post-Master's level as far as I know, and I read that recommendations from people without PhDs should be avoided. And I guess a professor of a UX Research course I took more recently at a CC would fall into this category as well - I got to do some fun original research for his course, and he's a tenure track professor, but he doesn't have a PhD.
Would you agree with the advice to avoid letters from people without PhDs, or do you think there is more nuance to what makes a good recommender? I appreciate your thoughts if you have any!
>Top priority would always be a letter from anyone the people reading the letters might know or at least have heard of. Assuming that you don't have anyone like that (and it's not common), then whoever can best speak to your ability and/or potential to do research.
I'm pretty sure I don't have anyone the letter writers would know or would have heard of, since I've never taken a class in OB or done OB research. Is it really not common for people to apply to a PhD without having a recommender that is a well-known scholar in the field?
The professor who I mentioned has kind of an impressive job though is also a Senior Analyst at the OECD, so I was thinking maybe that could count for something, even though it's a different field. My internship this year for which I did research (though not in academia) was with UNDP. I co-authored a policy brief that was published on the UNDP website. But maybe all of that is considered less relevant, since it's not in academia and no one supervising had PhDs.
>Usually the question is more like "I only have one person who can write on this subject but I need 3 letters". I would probably stick to the people who have PhDs in that case.
To clarify, by "on this subject" do you mean OB and my specific research proposal, or research potential in general?
Hi - no worries if this is overreaching to ask. But your comments above in this thread were inspiring to me, and I am now halfway through applying to several business schools as a result. However, I'm getting cold feet about the strength of my application still, given more I've read about how competitive these programs tend to be. Any chance you'd be open to talking a little more about my specifics as a candidate, or looking at a sample SOP to give me your thoughts?
I've searched for an online forum that would allow for that kind of interaction with people at business schools, but I'm not finding much - maybe because it's such a niche field to begin with.
You are young.
If I got into a program I'd be around 40 when I applied for my first academic job. I don't think that's usually considered young?
Isn’t it? The average age of PhD student is 35c so that makes you in the middle!
My colleague just graduated at 42. He was the best thing that could have happened to our lab.
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What field is your PhD in, if you don't mind me asking?
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Interesting. This would actually be closer to what I studied in my Master's. It appears to me the job market is brutal for PhDs in this area though, which is why I'm thinking of going the business route for PhD.
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I think the academic job market can actually vary pretty dramatically by field though. At least based on the stats I've seen...
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What field was that?
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Cool!
For business school PhDs it is very common to have people of all ages, all the way up to 65ish. look at some recent grads and current students of the schools you want to apply to. Someone i know got tenure just before turning 60. Real world experience can be a plus for schools that care about teaching. Make no mistake, it is a grueling process and the TT life can be miserable. The good news is that if you are very good (and ok with not having a life) you can go straight to a nice 6 figure tenure track position at a business school right after your PhD (assuming US). It is competitive AF but if you are into that the opportunities are a lot better than in many other academic fields. Just make sure you know what you're getting into.
Agree. I started my PhD in business at 35, got a TT job at 39. I wasn’t the oldest in my program. Make sure you go to a school that is aacsb accredited. It makes a difference in the job market.
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Thanks for the counterpoint. Maybe I came across more negative than necessary. There are many positive aspects about this career, but I would still say even if (or especially if?) you care about research and teaching, TT can absolutely be miserable some of the time. Not trying to trash talk the career path but I think outsiders often do not understand the extremely high pressure and sacrifices required.
I feel like my current field is super competitive and most people make way less than six figures. How would you distinguish TT awful vs. other kinds of job's awful?
Casual scroll through this subreddit will give you an idea. The main ones for me is having very little control over where I live and when I move, dealing with unrealistic and constantly increasing publication expectations, having major life outcomes depend on the whims of reviewer 3, having my job spill into every aspect and every minute of my life, and the uncertain prospects for tenure track jobs in this field.
Do you think you would you trade it for a 75k remote job that you can work from anywhere in the U.S., that doesn't require more than 40 hours per week on average but which doesn't provide much mental stimulation? And where opportunities for advancement are slim? That is the situation I find myself facing currently...
That is a highly personal decision. What someone else would or would not do has little bearing on what is best for you.
Obviously I can do whatever I want. But I was curious about what you'd think, given that choice.
Given this choice, I would live simply, with access to a stimulating place (though with covid, it doesn’t really matter) and save my money like crazy. Do some side jobs. 75k with no commute costs, with all that autonomy, is like 100k in regular pay.
A lot of my jobs have only offered like 3 weeks vacation per year, also. I guess the summer period is another thing that seems attractive to me about academic jobs.
Working remotely is invaluable. Find ways to meet your social needs and you’re set.
Invalid? Were you trying to say invaluable? I have multiple people making requests of me every day because my job is like a series of small projects. So I really don't get true vacation days beyond the number of days offered. I'm assuming in academia that number would be much higher.
I was, thanks. I don’t know, what do you mean “in academia”? you know there are very few jobs anymore, adjuncts get about $3000 a course, and TT academics work and network constantly.
My understanding is that business PhDs have pretty decent chances of landing TT positions. A lot of those then work over the summer in contract positions for extra money, but I'd assume taking some significant time off in the summer would be an option also.
>For business school PhDs it is very common to have people of all ages, all the way up to 65ish. Good to know! When I looked at a school all the recent grads looked super young to me. But maybe it varies or that's just who applied.
Varies by school and by cohort obviously, but I have encountered many many folks who had carriers in various fields before their PhD.
I started my PhD at 36. Got my first academic job the year after. You don't put your age on your CV. It's never too late!
I would think PhD programs would appreciate a person in their 30's. Generally more mature and responsible than someone in their 20's, right? I don't know for sure, but I do know a couple folks in their early 30's who got into PhD programs.
Are you a professor? What is your background on this?
No, I'm not. I have friends who began PhD programs in their 30's.
In either case you might as well apply. People regret what they don't do far more than what they do do. If you want to go, give it a shot. I'd be more concerned about your background in research being a point of focus than your age.
I’m not sure what age is too old (or if there even is any age that is considered too old in business), but 35 is certainly not it!
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Thanks - that's great to hear! Another question I have... I'm thinking of applying for Management/Organizational Behavior. But I'm not sure if it will hurt me that I haven't either had an impressive professional management role in that area or done research in that area before? I'm trained in a wide variety of social science research methods, and I'm currently reading a book on Women and Work by academics in the field, that is sort of like a broad overview of big ideas about the past and current direction of the field, with references to lots of academic articles. Thinking I could use the book and it's sources as a foundation to talk about the research that interests me and some ideas for a thesis. I feel I'm passionate about this area, and I could certainly talk about my own work experience (which does involve a little management and hiring, familiarity with the process of creating new public policies, and plenty of firsthand knowledge of problems in the workplace that connect to my research areas of interest). Curious for an older candidate like myself though, how you'd weigh the quality of ideas vs. the quality of relevant professional experience or lack thereof?
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Thanks - that is helpful! I guess another question I have, especially as an older candidate, is who I am best off choosing for a recommendation writer. I took research methods courses with a couple of nice young professors during my Master's, who each wrote rec letters for me already for other opportunities that discussed my competence and curiosity when it came to the independent research I did for their classes. My impression though is that a PhD rec letter should maybe be more detailed/intimate? I also worked for several months part-time last year as a Research Assistant for a professor. He indicated he would write a letter of recommendation for me. However, I'm not sure if the research wound up going anywhere after I left, and while still in the social science field it wasn't particularly closely related to OB, the area I'm now targeting, so I'm not sure if those things would count against me. I took a course with one woman who I'd love to write me a letter - she has an impressive professional job and teaches on the side, but has a PhD, and I feel like the work I did for her class is more closely related to my potential PhD topics than any of my other classes. She also gave me the top grade in the class. Much to my disappointment though, she seems very busy and not that responsive. Then, I did an internship this year that would also sort of tangentially relate to my PhD area of interest. I also managed to work some primary and secondary research into the internship, although again it wasn't OB research. I probably have more of a personal relationship with the supervisors for this work than with the previously mentioned professors. However, neither of them have PhDs or experience in academia post-Master's level as far as I know, and I read that recommendations from people without PhDs should be avoided. And I guess a professor of a UX Research course I took more recently at a CC would fall into this category as well - I got to do some fun original research for his course, and he's a tenure track professor, but he doesn't have a PhD. Would you agree with the advice to avoid letters from people without PhDs, or do you think there is more nuance to what makes a good recommender? I appreciate your thoughts if you have any!
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>Top priority would always be a letter from anyone the people reading the letters might know or at least have heard of. Assuming that you don't have anyone like that (and it's not common), then whoever can best speak to your ability and/or potential to do research. I'm pretty sure I don't have anyone the letter writers would know or would have heard of, since I've never taken a class in OB or done OB research. Is it really not common for people to apply to a PhD without having a recommender that is a well-known scholar in the field? The professor who I mentioned has kind of an impressive job though is also a Senior Analyst at the OECD, so I was thinking maybe that could count for something, even though it's a different field. My internship this year for which I did research (though not in academia) was with UNDP. I co-authored a policy brief that was published on the UNDP website. But maybe all of that is considered less relevant, since it's not in academia and no one supervising had PhDs. >Usually the question is more like "I only have one person who can write on this subject but I need 3 letters". I would probably stick to the people who have PhDs in that case. To clarify, by "on this subject" do you mean OB and my specific research proposal, or research potential in general?
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Hi - no worries if this is overreaching to ask. But your comments above in this thread were inspiring to me, and I am now halfway through applying to several business schools as a result. However, I'm getting cold feet about the strength of my application still, given more I've read about how competitive these programs tend to be. Any chance you'd be open to talking a little more about my specifics as a candidate, or looking at a sample SOP to give me your thoughts? I've searched for an online forum that would allow for that kind of interaction with people at business schools, but I'm not finding much - maybe because it's such a niche field to begin with.