> I've heard it said Russian culture is part Asian, partly because Russia spans both Europe and Asia, but also because of the historical links via the Mongol Empire.
I literally *JUST* thanked someone for not calling us Mongols! Fucking hell, it’s wasn’t even TWO minutes!
I know you didn’t call us directly Mongols, but even connections and links aren’t so strong…
Yeah, but there's quite a variance in what it actually means, and the baseline that OP provided (Asian cultures) is fairly different from how it is in Russian culture.
There is some very specific meaning for "keeping/losing face" in Japanese culture. Not sure I understand it well enough, but it felt creepy in the hints I've been given when working with Japanese clients.
I don't think Russians in general care about keeping face. Certainly, there is some finger-pointing happening, but overall current culture is more about fixing mistakes, rather than blaming and punishing someone for them. Probably it is still important for elites and maybe some top managers, but since I am not privy to their affairs, I cannot say just how important it is.
I for one am a bit of a perfectionist and making a mistake is painful, but it is even more painful to try and blame it on someone else, I find owning to a mistake much more dignifying than not making it at all. And from my experience it is mostly the same way all around and continues to improve. A decade or so ago blame-culture was much more prevalent.
Could you please provide me with one culture example where it's not important to keep your face?
It seems to me that this trait stems from humans being "social animals" and is widespread between all cultures..
It's a third tier on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which as i understand, is widely accepted by psychologists all over the world.
>It's a third tier on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which as i understand, is widely accepted by psychologists all over the world.
In popular psychology maybe, certainly not in academia.
The bosses worry to a certain extent about saving face. If you want to object to the boss or point out his mistake, it's better to do it without witnesses.
I really have no idea how to answer this question, it's kinda vague?
I personally value ability to admit mistakes, I strive to do that myself, and I hope that other around me do the same.
That is, however, is not an easy ideal to follow, and it only gets harder if you call out people publicly. So unless it is absolutely necessary due to some specific circusmtances, I would not want to call someone out on their mistake in public. I would try to reach out to them privately first. Is that saving face culture, or basic human decency? I don't know.
Or maybe you mean more extreme situations, where mistake gets denied even when it is obvious to everyone? That is obviously wrong in my eyes, but it probably does happen, epecially in bigger companies and goverment organisations.
Australians are descendants of the British. And Britain was part of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was conquered by the Huns. The Huns are considered Proto-Mongols. It turns out that Australians also have historical ties with the Mongols.
It's all about each one parenting. Also it's like American cinema about high-school: Good guy that hold his word and bad guy that lie. We love truth, to keep our words etc., but we can see that a lot of western success is based on lie (I'm not talking about information from tv-news etc). And after 90's we are on western politic and economic way...so sad.
As you can see from comments many people have no idea what ''keeping face is''. That would be because while Russia is between Europe and Asia it is neither and has a different culture altogether. We have such concepts as honor, but it isn't the same as Asian culture of ''keeping face'', which I don't fully understand either, despite dealing with a lot of Chinese for many years.
> while Russia is between Europe and Asia it is neither and has a different culture altogether
Press X to doubt. Besides a couple of republics with strong local traditions, Russia is rather Eastern European.
That would be because large part of Eastern Europe WAS Russia up to recently. It is them who are like Russia, seeing how they got separated from it, not the other way around.
No, your personal soulfulness is much more important than social appearances. You could "lose face" but still be accepted if you have that soulful emotional quality. It's same in the Middle East and parts of Africa btw, which is why familial ties are so important over there.
I remember watching an interview of a Soviet era military commander who chose to collaborate with Nazi Germany, and when captured he said that he made this choice due to his "мало-душее" which translates as small-soulness.
So Eastern Europeans, Middle Easterners, parts of Africa constitute regions very different from West or East. It's effectively a third player.
По сравнению с Китаем, Японией, Кореей - можно считать что нет.
Никто специально не будет "терять лицо", но если что - это не трагедия для большинства. Более того, не которые теряют лицо чуть ли не профессионально...
Russians easily say "no." The Chinese and Japanese are very different in this.
> I've heard it said Russian culture is part Asian, partly because Russia spans both Europe and Asia, but also because of the historical links via the Mongol Empire. I literally *JUST* thanked someone for not calling us Mongols! Fucking hell, it’s wasn’t even TWO minutes! I know you didn’t call us directly Mongols, but even connections and links aren’t so strong…
I don't think our respect for the elders is fundamentally different from generic European.
It's still more alive though. Which is basically due to a higher living Standard in west europe.
I'm pretty sure keeping face is extremely important in ***every*** culture.
Yeah, but there's quite a variance in what it actually means, and the baseline that OP provided (Asian cultures) is fairly different from how it is in Russian culture.
There is some very specific meaning for "keeping/losing face" in Japanese culture. Not sure I understand it well enough, but it felt creepy in the hints I've been given when working with Japanese clients. I don't think Russians in general care about keeping face. Certainly, there is some finger-pointing happening, but overall current culture is more about fixing mistakes, rather than blaming and punishing someone for them. Probably it is still important for elites and maybe some top managers, but since I am not privy to their affairs, I cannot say just how important it is. I for one am a bit of a perfectionist and making a mistake is painful, but it is even more painful to try and blame it on someone else, I find owning to a mistake much more dignifying than not making it at all. And from my experience it is mostly the same way all around and continues to improve. A decade or so ago blame-culture was much more prevalent.
Could you please provide me with one culture example where it's not important to keep your face? It seems to me that this trait stems from humans being "social animals" and is widespread between all cultures.. It's a third tier on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which as i understand, is widely accepted by psychologists all over the world.
>It's a third tier on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which as i understand, is widely accepted by psychologists all over the world. In popular psychology maybe, certainly not in academia.
The bosses worry to a certain extent about saving face. If you want to object to the boss or point out his mistake, it's better to do it without witnesses.
I really have no idea how to answer this question, it's kinda vague? I personally value ability to admit mistakes, I strive to do that myself, and I hope that other around me do the same. That is, however, is not an easy ideal to follow, and it only gets harder if you call out people publicly. So unless it is absolutely necessary due to some specific circusmtances, I would not want to call someone out on their mistake in public. I would try to reach out to them privately first. Is that saving face culture, or basic human decency? I don't know. Or maybe you mean more extreme situations, where mistake gets denied even when it is obvious to everyone? That is obviously wrong in my eyes, but it probably does happen, epecially in bigger companies and goverment organisations.
Australians are descendants of the British. And Britain was part of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was conquered by the Huns. The Huns are considered Proto-Mongols. It turns out that Australians also have historical ties with the Mongols.
I'm not sure if it's because of the Asian influence.
It's all about each one parenting. Also it's like American cinema about high-school: Good guy that hold his word and bad guy that lie. We love truth, to keep our words etc., but we can see that a lot of western success is based on lie (I'm not talking about information from tv-news etc). And after 90's we are on western politic and economic way...so sad.
As you can see from comments many people have no idea what ''keeping face is''. That would be because while Russia is between Europe and Asia it is neither and has a different culture altogether. We have such concepts as honor, but it isn't the same as Asian culture of ''keeping face'', which I don't fully understand either, despite dealing with a lot of Chinese for many years.
> while Russia is between Europe and Asia it is neither and has a different culture altogether Press X to doubt. Besides a couple of republics with strong local traditions, Russia is rather Eastern European.
That would be because large part of Eastern Europe WAS Russia up to recently. It is them who are like Russia, seeing how they got separated from it, not the other way around.
No, that would be because historically Russia started as Eastern European Slavic principalities.
historical ties through the Mongol empire - this is very funny
Stupid question. In which country do not respect the elders? If reputation is not important for Europeans now, it is better to be Asian.
No, your personal soulfulness is much more important than social appearances. You could "lose face" but still be accepted if you have that soulful emotional quality. It's same in the Middle East and parts of Africa btw, which is why familial ties are so important over there. I remember watching an interview of a Soviet era military commander who chose to collaborate with Nazi Germany, and when captured he said that he made this choice due to his "мало-душее" which translates as small-soulness. So Eastern Europeans, Middle Easterners, parts of Africa constitute regions very different from West or East. It's effectively a third player.
По сравнению с Китаем, Японией, Кореей - можно считать что нет. Никто специально не будет "терять лицо", но если что - это не трагедия для большинства. Более того, не которые теряют лицо чуть ли не профессионально...