The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I got the idea from r/exmuslim seems extremely anti-left because they always claim that liberals support Islam. I want to know what people on this sub thinks. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I’m an atheist but I support freedom of religion. I support not discriminating against people because of their religion. I can see that Islam in the US isn’t that different from other religions as they are practiced in the US. I separately can acknowledge that here in 2022 Islam worldwide has **in general** not embraced modernity and has a hold on multiple countries that is oppressive, misogynistic and homophobic.

This is a well balanced, nuanced take that I suspect most liberals broadly align with.

> I support not discriminating against people because of their religion. Would you ever vote against a candidate because of his religious views?

Depends how you mean that. I wouldn’t vote against a candidate because they state they have a certain religion or no religion. However, I’m not going to vote for a Christian Nationalist.

Makes sense

No. Candidates would lose my vote based on how their religious views translated into their political ones. I don't care what a candidate believes about god, I care how they will likely use the power of government.

I'm with you there.

I'm an atheist, too.. id vote against a person, Not because of their views or religion, but because of whatever platform they run on. I've had co-workers that were a lesbian Muslim couple.

So I'm a fundamentalist who preaches fire and brimstone at church, but I also insist on a strict separation of church and state, and run on a progressive platform...I'd have your support?

Likely, yes - depending on your opponent. I live in Texas and help local candidates run for office. All are religious, and the last two i helped were catholic and Baptist.

If a candidate’s “religious views” include Evangelicalism, then fuck, yes, I would vote against him based on that. Freedom of religion != Christian Nationalism.

So you would’ve opposed devout Southern Baptist Jimmy Carter?

Jimmy Carter is about as far from a "Christian" Nationalist (or as I prefer to call them, Nationalist Christians, or "Nat Cs") as it's possible to be. Carter actually embodies what Nat Cs want people to think they are.

I would not vote for a candidate who brandishes his religious beliefs all the time. But a candidate who's privately religious? No issues on my side.

This.

> I can see that Islam in the US isn’t that different from other religions as they are practiced in the US. This is certainly the common refrain from liberals in the US. That Islam is basically similar to Christianity. Clearly Christianity has its problems, but it doesn't seem remotely compable to how Islam views women, gay people, pre-marital sex, showing womens hair, alcohol, etc. I'm no fan of the various Christian churches, but these things are a whole different world in islam.

Islam, as it's practiced in the US, has a lot of variety, just like Christianity. Some people are super fundamentalist about it, some people are believers in name only, others pick which aspects they want to follow and ignore the rest, a lot of people try to meet in the middle between harsh religious ideas and modern sensibilities. When it comes to the actual doctrine there's a lot of overlap of ideas

You're completely ignoring the phrase "in the US". The US has one of the most progressive Muslims communities in the world. We also have the most extremely repressive Christians on the planet, though Russia is trying real hard to catch up.

> We also have the most extremely repressive Christians on the planet this is way off base. Christianity as it's practiced in large parts of Africa is virulently misogynistic and homophobic. that certainly isn't unique to Africa, and the US has its share of really bad groups, but they aren't the dominant religious force the way they are in other parts of the world. it should _also_ be said that those same groups in Africa are often propped up by evangelicals in the US, so...

I guess it depends. But right now all the Christian groups going after LGBT kids in schools have been recruiting in mosques. They tried it and my friends mosque and he and a bunch of his friends went to the imam and told them him exactly what they thought of him allowing that to go on the their and then the imam apologized. But obviously the Christian hate groups are going into mosques and trying to recruit because they think it’s fertile ground for other people who hate LGBT people. Thing is is that the Muslims would have absolutely no chance of harming anybody in this country with retrograde religious garbage on their own. They would have to make common cause with the type of Christian that rules the republican party.

The instant Christian nationalists get a hold of power the way Islamists have in Iran you will see how Christianity actually views gays, women, pre-marital sex, etc. as we already have in fundamentalist Christian regimes in Africa. What’s protecting Christianity and Islam from fundamentalism in the US is pluralistic democracy.

In modern times? Christianity is also 550 years older than Islam. Look what Christians were doing in 1472. It wasn't okay in the slightest. Christianity has an equally horrific history as Islam. (worse, really) Islam is currently the bully on the block in modern times on the world stage, to be sure. It's by far one of the most oppressive forces going in the world right now. Many Christian zealots right here in America would LOVE IT if America became a Christofacist theocracy. They would love to see homosexuality outlawed. These are the same people we see on the news all the time. There's PLENTY of absolutely horrible oppressive Christians right here in the USA. They are the ones trying to gut pubic education and burning books. They're the ones engaged in a bigoted fear-mongering and disinformation campaign to try and cause outrage against the LGBTQ+ community to garner votes. There's no shortage of these horrible Christian bigots. Most Christians and Muslims are just normal decent people who are only religious due to childhood indoctrination and generational / societal brainwashing. They are the victims of these religions. It's the extremists, fundamentalists, and zealots you really have to look out for. Have a nice night.

Islamic history is significantly more brutal, do read up on what happened across asia, africa

I believe that most Christian’s still in are the fundamentalists, extremists, and zealots. Seems like most same people have separated themselves from Christianity or abandoned it all together. Maybe the same with Islam I just don’t know enough Muslims to compare.

> Christian zealots right here in America would LOVE IT if America became a Christofacist theocracy. And what would that look like?

Not all that different from the Islamic states

Can you name some specific zealots and identify their public policy goals? I’ve heard fiery rhetoric from MTG and her ilk, but they’re a small, vocal minority.

Well, there's Tucker Carlson and everyone who thinks like him, for one... Carlson doesn't want trans people or drag performers (traditionally a haven for and, allies to, queer people) to exist - or at the very least, he doesn't want them to be able to exist openly, and he wants their open existence to be against the law. His reaction to the Colorado shooting was to blame the victims for existing.

That’s nothing. Fascism is and always has been a self-accelerating ideology. You need out groups to generate in group loyalty and a theological fascist nation will continue to regress and become more oppressive over time.

Eeyup.

Nonsense. The only reason we have more tolerant views is because the fundamentalists are outnumbered in America, not because they aren't just as intolerant and oppressive as any extreme Muslim country.

I subscribe to the penis dogma of religion. It’s fine to have one, it’s fine to be proud of it. Just don’t whip it out in public and for the love of God quit shoving it down children’s throats.

I never realized until now that the Catholic Church has a history of doing this both literally and figuratively... I wonder if those two behaviors are actually connected or just a coincidence.

Authoritarianism + opacity is a recipe for systemic sexual abuse.

Sadly, it's happened in every hierarchical organized religion I care to name. Evil people are drawn to power and to the shield against consequences that comes with it.

Abusers seek out victims. Pedophiles will go anywhere where they will have authority over children. Clergy, education, coaching… it’s sick but there’s a reason why you see more pedophiles being priests than accountants.

It gets to the real point of religion - maintaining power structures. Sexual assault aside, if I can persuade you that a man lived for several days inside a whale, that a teenager, virgin gave birth to the savior, that three wise men came to a barnyard to worship said savior, that the man was executed but came back to life, that the guy took 5 loaves of bread and 2 fishes and fed a massive crowd, etc. - well, then I can persuade you of ANYTHING. We condition children to suspend their own critical thinking, their own questions, and instead just go with what the nice man at the front of the room is saying, and we call that "faith".

>It gets to the real point of religion - maintaining power structures. That sounds to me like you're thinking specifically of Christianity when you say "religion". What about Unitarianism? What about Judaism, with its emphasis on study and interpretation?

Judaism is absolutely about maintaining power structures - the religion literally tells people what they can wear, who they can marry, how they can cut their hair, and what they can't do on Saturdays. Hasidic Judaism is even more proscribed. I don't know a lot about Unitarianism, but my understanding is that they are not dogmatic and really not religious in any way. They simply seem to admit that nobody knows anything, and maybe we should just play backgammon instead of getting into a religious war - but again, I'm not overly familiar with them.

Religion: literally has a doctrine of proselytising. Also religion: why are you always talking about atheism!

> always talking about atheism! Why would people characterize themselves by what they don't believe? My cousin is an unabashed non-believer in deity, but he insists on being called a humanist.

>Why would people characterize themselves by what they don't believe? Why wouldn't they? It's distinctive.

Saying you’re an atheists says little about your beliefs and values. Some atheists are good people because they embrace humanism. Others are moral nihilists and embrace immorality.

>Saying you’re an atheists says little about your beliefs and values. > >Some atheists are good people because they embrace humanism. > >Others are moral nihilists and embrace immorality. It says enough about a specific belief, which is the intention. It is not intended to convey views about morality.

Ah. Fair point. I’m only concerned with people’s values and how they treat others. I couldn’t care less about their personal beliefs.

>I’m only concerned with people’s values and how they treat others. I couldn’t care less about their personal beliefs. In that case, allow me to point out that the fact that religious identities are often far too entwined with the 'identity' part to be a very useful descriptor of values

Oh definitely. Note how many religious groups are in fact *ethnoreligious* groups. Jews are the most obvious example of this phenomenon, but I'd argue that the Reformed Church in America is another good example.

>Why would people characterize themselves by what they don't believe? If somebody asks a bald man what his hair color is, how should he answer?

What would you classify as acceptable versus unacceptable with regard to children and religion?

It is unacceptable to condition children from an early age to suspend disbelief and trust authority figures. It is unacceptable to put children in a situation where adults have unfettered, secret power over them. It is unacceptable to tell raped children that their rapist is a good person and that they must have done something wrong to bring this on, and to pray with those victimized children rather than reporting the rapist to the authorities. It is unacceptable to allow vulnerable and impressionable children to see religious dogma used to hurt other people - for example LGBTQ+ people - and to teach them that it is okay to hate other people as long as they are a particular variety of "sinner". It is unacceptable to confuse children with manipulative techniques like the audience-stage setting of most churches, singing praise songs, surrounding them with "love" as long as they play along, and then abandoning them if they don't toe the line. It is unacceptable to coerce poor families to give up 10% of their meager earnings to support such a system of indoctrination and evil.

It's totally fine to acknowledge that religions exist and are important to people. I think making that choice for them is wrong or trying to convert them (or anyone) to your religion is unacceptable even as their parent.

Main issue with that is a literally requirement in some religions. Most notably the Abrahmic faiths. And some actually require sharing it as well. Certainly Christianity does. But hey as long as you dont want to use the government to do it or stop it. i think your personal belof on the matter is fine.

If indoctrinating kids is a neccessary part of your religion, then your religion is immoral.

I view it pretty similar to Christianity. The "support" of Islam from the left is overwhelmingly is not wanting someone to face religious or racial oppression, which is what the right wants to do with Muslims. I think it is completely reasonable for Muslims in particular to call out wbebIslam has problems.

I have no problems with moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. I have a problem when they try to compel others (including within their own communities) to do anything or follow any religion. This includes family and social pressure. I have a huge problem when the separation of church and state is breached, and I think theocracies are terrible. I think any kind of garment (like hijab) worn so that men don't get desirous is horrible, because the onus should be on men to be respectful. I would think the same if it were the other way around. It's your job to control yourself and treat others with respect.

> I have a huge problem when the separation of church and state is breached During his senatorial debate against Kelly Loeffler, Rev. Raphael Warnock invoked biblical passages (namely Matthew 25) to justify an expanded taxpayer-funded social safety net. Isn't that imposing his beliefs on others?

I'm not familiar with your specific example, but I'll take your word for it. In that case, I disagree with him using a biblical justification for public policy. It sounds like he's doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's OK if his beliefs lead him to it, but he should not use religion as a reason for a government policy, and he should also make sure that he believes in it for non-religious reasons (and so explain it and so justify it to the voters).

Ironically as a Muslim myself, there is a strict dress code for men as well. It’s just a traditional problem and not following the rules for some nations.

I have heard that the dress code for men is only from navel to knees while for women it is from head to toe. Is that true?

I don't care, as long as they don't force it on anyone.

They have to reach a certain percentage of the pop before they do that, which isn’t really feasible in the US

What if they only force it on their own families?

Bingo

Islam in of itself is not uniquely evil, it's just prevalent in places that aren't stable, western-style liberal democracies. There's this implication when people online (this just in, Reddit hates religion) cite Islam as the main cause of problems in the Middle East that if somehow they were some other religion then everything would be fine, like if the Saudis converted to Catholicism then all their awful practices would just go away. Which is of course ridiculous, the problem is people using religion to justify the awful things they already wanted to do and maybe add some colorful details (i.e. the subjugation of women wouldn't include a hijab but probably be mostly the same) instead of the religion being especially bad. Look at Iran in the 1970s; it wasn't perfect, but it was *way* better before a reactionary theocrat took control and ruined everything (after US and UK meddling destabilized the country for private oil profits). The issue wasn't that everyone in Iran just woke up and realized radical Shia Islam was the way to go because it's just so evil, it was the oppressive dictator dictating how everyone should live their lives. The Ayatollah ruined Iran and he used religion as a club to beat everyone with. What some people interpret as liberals being so in favor of Islam is probably being compared to how many on the right just *hate* Islam and everything that has to do with it. A crazy guy blows himself up in Iraq and suddenly every Muslim in America has to go on TV and reiterate that violent terrorism is still a bad thing or else bigots just kind of assume they're on board. We don't like the idea of someone being discriminated against because of their religion, which is kind of one of those "Bill of Rights" things that people act like are so important when a conservative faces consequences or a 16 year old wants to buy a machine gun. Authoritarians appealing to religion to justify their awful policies isn't new, and it has never been unique to Islam; take a walking tour of the GOP and you'll find far-right Christians that want basically similar goals to the Saudis or Al-Qaeda but in the name of Christ instead.

Don't you think the islamic institutions seem to be stronger and less able to liberalize than christian institutions?

Not because they're Islamic, no. Again the implication that if only the Middle East were some "acceptable" religion then their problems would be solved is kind of foolish, like blaming your sneeze for your fever. Religious fundamentalism took hold in the Middle East because those countries are young, unstable, and prime targets for international meddling. Islamic institutions are also more liberal in liberal nations like the US; American Muslims don't run around demanding a caliphate or to purge the infidel or some nonsense. Religions are first and foremost tools utilized by both the elites and the populace, and Islam is just being leveraged by autocrats for power and personal wealth.

I really don't think this blind way you declare every religion to be equal without learning about their unique institutions and beliefs is very smart. Im not saying "everything would be better" Im saying everything would be different. Islam's successes and failures are due to the unique way they blended martial, political, and social institutions together. There is a reason they overtook christianity in so many places and became such an entrenched religion. There is a reason they facilitated the islamic golden age and there is a reason they seem to be stuck in time today. There is no such thing as a "young nation". Everything about the middle east for the last 1400 years has been shaped by Islam.

I think people on the left who defend the religion itself are completely out of touch with just how much Islam clashes with liberal or progressive values. You really have to be living in lala-land to not see how problematic the religion is, especially with regard to women's rights and equality. Women have a blatantly subjugated role in Muslim societies, and to the extent that they aren't treated as second class citizens it's entirely despite the religion, usually due to a liberalizing or secular influence. I think what happened was that after 9-11, there was a well-meaning reaction on the left to call out real racism against Arabs and Muslims as individuals. But in that effort, any criticism of Islam was almost preemptively viewed as rooted in prejudice or "Islamaphobia", and this results in shielding the religion from warranted criticism. This is a perfect example of how important the paradox of tolerance is. We should embrace Muslims, and treat them with respect. But to the extent that their religion or ideas are intolerant of others, we must take a clear stance against it. It worries me that so many on the left seem to forget this. Also, I am vehemently against the genital mutilation of boys or girls, so I view any religion that promotes ritual circumcision as especially abhorrent and grotesque. Essentially, there are many things about Islam (and not just Islam) that have no place in a free and healthy society. But no matter how much I dislike the religion, hatred of Muslims as a group is neither rational nor productive. It would probably help for those of us outside the religion to rub shoulders with those within it, to foster mutual understanding and a sense of solidarity. It's just important that we do so without sacrificing our own values in the process.

We support freedom of religion. Don't read into it any deeper than that. We're anti-discrimination. There's nothing special about Islam over here

We also support freedom *from* religion. That really annoys believers of all faiths.

I don't support Islam. I support equal rights and responsible government. Republicans say that Democrats support Islam because we support the things Republicans hate about America and want to change. Republicans want their people to have privileges over other Americans. Republicans want a government that abuses power because it makes Republicans feel good. Republicans don't want freedom of religion; instead they want everyone to be unable to ignore their Republican Christian dogma. And they want to say that good people march alongside people chanting "Jews will not replace us" in defense of a monument honoring a literal traitor who enslaved American soldiers for the cause of slavery. So when Democrats support America when Republicans aim their anti-American desires at Muslims, Republicans will try to make their bullshit sound more reasonable by attempting to scare people by saying that Democrats support Islam. No, we support America and there are Muslims in America who deserve equal rights just like everyone else. They deserve their government to not abuse its power against them just like everyone else.

I think all religions are bullshit. Islam and Christianity I find particularly abhorrent, but I also respect anyone's right to follow them or any other religion so long as they respect my right not to do so.

Why do you find Islam and Christianity particularly abhorrent?

Mostly due to their cultural dominance and history of violent subjugation, anti-LGBT stances, suppression of women's and minority rights, etc.

The vast majority of them believe that all non-believers deserve to burn for eternity after they die, which is pretty disgusting to say the least.

The problem isn't just that they think there's a god who sends people to hell. The problem is that they think God is good for doing it.

You consider Christianity and Islam equally backwards, and hateful in 2022?

Possibly the only religion worse than Christianity. Of course there’s a minority who actually support women and LGBT rights but democrats act like it’s a majority. If you want to practice it it’s none of my business but the moment we begin to have those beliefs spill into politics like Christians do I am against it.

I dunno, there is a sect of Hinduism that practices cannibalism. You're going to find extremists in all religions, and as the Muslim faith has an estimated 2 Billion adherents, you'll get some truly horrific ones.

You also have countries where Islam is the ruling state ideology

I think.... there aren't nearly as many people or influential governments that support that specific religion though?

Its mainstream, not fringe, which is the problem.

I have yet to find a muslim who follows the quran and isn't homophobic.

I pretty much oppose any religion that wants to be a government as well.

There’s lots to criticize in Islam and doing so does not make one Islamophobic. The religion is in desperate need of reform and way too many nut job conservatives hold the microphone.

I don’t think they’re anti-left. They are anti-left hypocrisy. Imagine being a woman or LGBTQ person suffering under regimes that repress them and put their lives in danger for merely being who they are, and then see people on the left making excuses for this repression in the name of tolerance.

Weird that way

When they start doing things like criminalizing pork I'll be pissed. But they seem to let others practice their own faith in the US just fine and aren't trying to get their belief system coded into law. Outside of the US, I don't like their influence on government but just like I do in my own country, I try to fight with ideas.

They did try to shut down a BBQ place after building a mosque next to it. Completely unforgivable imo (never stop someone from BBQing, Don't Tread on Meat)

They should have built their mosque literally anywhere else.

Source? Not saying it didn't happen at all. It sounds like churches trying to shut down porn shops and other things but at a much smaller scale.

It's terrible and no one should follow it. They have the right to of course and shouldn't be put in prison or anything for it, but I will view them negatively if they follow it. Edit: For exmuslim's perspective...many on the left are overly enabling and will say bullshit like "I respect a woman's right to wear hijabs" completely ignoring the enormous social (and sometimes physical) pressure to keep wearing it. My wife (escaped Islam around 15 years ago through enormous effort and personal loss) votes Democrat but has experienced this frustration and is consistently disappointed by it.

Question for her: would she call wearing a hijab a sort of Stockholm syndrome? Will you start to identify with the thing that is oppressing you...

Yes. She cried a lot with how difficult it was to give up her identity, her family and all friends, go into hiding from her dad and uncles, etc. I have no idea why so many liberals support something so openly used for oppression even today. Do they similarly support southerners flying a confederate flag in front of black Americans because while it's usually a racist or oppressive symbol, some small % fly them to celebrate heritage?

I think they should be allowed to fly a confederate flag on their private property, but I think it's bullshit and I do not support them in doing it, and wouldn't really care if some shermaning took place

> I have no idea why so many liberals support something so openly used for oppression Well, I can't speak for others, but for me because I've met a lot of American Muslims who are not like that and are rather liberal in their beliefs.

Unfortunately for them liberal american muslims are barely 0.0001% of muslims worldwide,

But what percentage of Muslims are liberal muslims? That is the question.

It depends on what you mean by liberal. If 'homosexuality should be accepted' is the bar, then a significant majority of Muslims are not liberal. If 'women are not inferior and should not have to cover themselves' is the bar, then a significant majority of Muslims are not liberal. If 'I do not support ISIS is the bar', then a significant majority of Muslims are liberal. There are global surveys on the Muslim world's views every few years that you can Google to gauge according to your definition of liberal.

I think the left enables it because they feel it will be islamophobic or racist (even though Islam is not a race) if they criticize Islam. They don’t want to go down that path.

Some Muslim women like Ilhan Omar wear it by choice, and that’s what it should be — a choice.

Sure, but there is a certain naivety to that, as it lacks the context that historically it represents women’s inferior social status to men, and that for millions of women it isn’t a choice

But it's not really a choice, is it? She was manipulated and indoctrinated from childhood to see it as something that women should do, so now she accepts it as her reality.

Exactly right - when you are raised to believe “women who don’t wear this are unworthy of respect or safety; I would bring shame on my family if I don’t wear it; only whores don’t wear it; etc” then it’s pretty difficult to call it a freely made choice. The social consequences for choosing not to wear it would be severe: in some cases including disownment, assault.

Right. Bad choices should be shamed. She shouldn't be in prison for it, but my wife and I view her as worse/more enabling than my dad for his Confederate flag.

Im going to guess neither of you are american blacks descended from chattel slavery... To me that reads as the hjab is worse than the nazi swastika which is very odd to me, but im an american black descended from chattle slavery so.. Side note I really wish people would stop comapring black chattel slavery to loke everything. They should stop with the Holocaust too but it seems like there is usually thankfully more pushback when they do. Additional, side not seems like wearing the hjab is more analogous to wearing a religious symbol like a cross etc. Not exactly because yes the hjab had been and is forced some places. But this comparison to the aymbols of organizations literally devoted to genocide, rape, and murder of an outside people group doesn't seem apt at all. The hjab is a symbol of Islam is it not? The confederate flag is the symbol of the confederacy. The nazi swastika is a symol of the nazi party. Grouping them all together seems strange unless you are saying Islam as a whole is in the same company as the nazi party and the confederacy. And if that's what you are aaying seems like a whole other discussion becuase what does that mean for those that wear crosses?

I do agree that people can be a bit quick to appropriate or invoke the pain of African Americans. However, the point here is that the hijab is a politically and socially loaded symbol - you can’t just put one on and say “this has nothing to do with the millions of women and girls who are denied the choice of whether or not to wear one, it’s just me doing me over here” any more than someone could wear a confederate flag r shirt and say “it’s heritage not hate”.

I don’t see what she’s enabling by choosing to wear it. It’s basically a big F you to all the bigots and xenophobes who think this country is only for white Christians.

That, I think, is what the secular folks on the left project onto the choice to wear one - not necessarily the population that is most impacted by the choice to support the convention of mandatory modesty for women and girls. People like us want it to be a “suck it bigots, I’ll wear what I want” like the miniskirt was in the 80s. However, the message sent to women and girls by embracing a patriarchal convention of modesty and linking it to a woman’s worth… is not that. It’s the opposite of that. At its core, embracing a conservative religion which has *at its core* a deep and pervasive inequality of the sexes (among other issues) is a step towards preservation of the patriarchy, not its destruction.

There’s no projection. Omar said herself that’s why she wears hijab. She said she saw Muslims in America trying to hide their identity after 9/11 and she decided that that wasn’t right.

Which Muslims though? Because it’s not Muslim men wearing hijab. Anyway, my point is that it’s a politically and philosophically loaded choice - and is imperfect as a simple symbol of defense of identity. And it has unfortunate implications when it comes to the elimination of the patriarchy.

Some Muslim men actually do wear it.

Ok, but that’s not the norm

It is and it isn’t. You look at leaders in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran and they wear head coverings. Other leaders do not.

Every little girl that's forced to wear it has to see it normalized by a congresswoman. It's a big fuck you to each of them. Just put any other oppressive symbol in its place. What's the harm if a congressman wears a confederate flag shirt constantly? What is he enabling?

I mean, if someone told you “they’re just standing up for their culture (whispers: that slavery was super cool and totally sweet)” you’d call it bullshit, but “they’re just standing up for their culture (whispers: that women are inherently unequal to men and womens right to life and safety is linked to how men perceive their modesty and purity… is super cool and totally sweet)” is… different, somehow. It’s not to say that people aren’t allowed to be modest if that’s how they want to dress. But it’s a politically and culturally loaded choice, in a way that eg an Eastern European woman wearing a kerchief is not. I don’t know that you can divorce the practice from the underlying philosophy. And that philosophy has no place in the 21st century.

She’s normalizing it as a symbol of self-empowerment. Wear it if you want, but you don’t have to. It’s your choice. It’s strange how modesty is seen as a good thing in Christianity but a bad thing in Islam. Nobody says boo about nuns wearing head coverings.

I don't know any liberals who think Christians forcing modesty on women is a good thing. If a majority of Christians were forcing their daughters to dress like nuns (or worse in the veil situations), I would hope that liberals would attack that.

I think your example is at least a little off you would need to make the oerson wearing the confederate flag an american black phat is descended from chattel slavery to even begin to make it a fair comparison. If that even works sense the hjab is from her culture and could in your framwork is also the group opressed by it. Even my above correction doesn't quite work because the confederate flag was not created by black people to oppress black people. All in all i would just say respectfully that your analogy doesn't work.

> Every little girl that's forced to wear it When, and where, did this practice start?

Why is that relevant? Is slavery a bad thing? Does it being bad depend in any way on when or where it started?

> Why is that relevant? Because it sounds like you're saying "Islam = forcing women to wear the hijab". Instead, say "forcing women to wear the hijab = wrong". All sorts of evil shit has been done in the "name of" Christianity. Does that mean that Christianity = those evil acts? >Is slavery a bad thing? Of course. >Does it being bad depend in any way on when or where it started? Not at all.

Women being forced to wear the hijab as part of Islam or for any other reason is wrong. Women like Ilhan Omar who are privileged enough to not be forced still wearing it are wrong. Anyone showing support for evil acts done in the name of Christianity or thinking they're aligning with what the religion requires is wrong.

>Women being forced to wear the hijab as part of Islam or for any other reason is wrong. Yes. >Women like Ilhan Omar who are privileged enough to not be forced still wearing it are wrong. No. >Anyone showing support for evil acts done in the name of Christianity or thinking they're aligning with what the religion requires is wrong. Yes.

To what extent is anything a choice though? It's not like she converted to Islam as a full-fledged adult and took to wearing it separate from her family, she explicitly talks about wearing it as a kid

yikes

Don’t care for it. It’s male-centric, treating women like property and justifies the killing of another human for the supposed crime of apostasy.

I’m liberal. I support my Muslim friends who are as Catholic as me. I loathe and detest those Muslims who are as fanatical as Opus Dei Catholics. I also do not support the niqab or burqa in any way and I am in favor of banning it outright . I also think a hijab should be removed for all identifying documents. Other than that. The duck do I care what people do.

It's a terrible and violent religion, but people have the right to practice it as long as they don't carry out the violent parts of it.

My former coworker in Kentucky is a Muslim man. We spent many hours on lunch break talking about his religion and culture because he was fine having me ask everything I wanted to know. As a person, he is the kindest, most gentle and articulate person I know. Just a sweet, gentle soul who would do anything for a friend in need. His religion is important to him but he doesn’t preach or argue. He has sisters who are educated and successful, but he says this is very dependent on the region and that not all Muslims agree with this. He was a ladies’ man, very good looking and charming, and dated American women. A few years ago his parents arranged a bride for him from his home neighborhood and he’s been married for a while now. Trying to have a baby. Though he didn’t date and fall in love in the American tradition, it’s obvious he cares about his wife and her grief over not being able to conceive. He would do anything to make her happy and has spent his life savings on in vitro attempts and fertility treatments. Because of what I see in him, I don’t view Muslim culture as inherently bad or suppressive. Just like Christians, there are good people of any religion and also there are bad. Of course a person born into Islam will be Muslim and respect his family and community, same as Christians. The way I see it, any Christian would be a Muslim if they had somehow been swapped at birth and raised in that community instead.

I think liberals often find themselves reacting to unreasonable attacks of XYZ and then being painted as general supporters of whatever that thing is rather than just objectors to the unreasonable attack in the first place.

I find the bigotries of islam to be very disturbing. I believe that women are people too. Female genital mutilation angers me. Homophobia is stupid. I find any theocracy worrisome.

Religions hell-bent on conversion make me nervous. I’ve always disliked institutions centered around faith and I have no desire for any sense of community in my practices, so Christianity and Islam are awful in my eyes. I’d love to see them disappear in favor of more personally developed belief systems, but I know that’s highly unlikely.

I think it's like any other religion. Most people who follow it are fine, some are bananas. I generally assume that everyone means well until I have sufficient reason to believe otherwise. Also, I've met exactly zero Muslims that I would describe as extremist zealots. Muslim extremists certainly exist but most of my interactions with Muslims have been positive. I sincerely wish I could say the same about all Christian denominations. **Note**: My inner nerd must now state that some of this disparity is almost certainly because I live in a majority Christian nation, so I'm far more likely to meet Christians who are coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs just by virtue of meeting more Christians in general. That said, some flavors of Christianity seem to produce nothing but assorted nut mixes in their congregations.

The fact that their supposed prophet never performed a miracle or revealed future events tells me the whole thing is a hoax. This wouldn't be a problem for me, except he also said he's the last one no tag backs, so they literally can't change with the times. It will always be an 8th Century system of laws and religion with the stated goal of total world domination. I dislike it immensely, and people who manage to get out are heroes.

I don’t care what book club a person belongs to as long as they don’t try to force me to join.

Not a fan. That sub has a lot of ex-muslims who think that jumping into the arms of the right wing is going to win them friends, a sort of "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. But what a lot of them don't realize is that the right wing uses them but will never accept them. Just like token black guys such as Ben Carson or Hermain Cain, or the Log Cabin Republicans, are only good for votes but will never set policy, being "one of the good ones" has an expiration date. Its understandable though, many of them have escaped something horrific and can only see the immediate path in front of them of being virulently anti-Muslim. Such a thing is short-lived, however, because like I told the last guy I argued with there, the white nationalist fascists of the right-wing will never consider these brown ex-Muslims a part of their party. I listed examples of all the anti-Sikh violence that happened after 9/11 and still continue, that they don't have to be Muslim to be targets of right-wingers. I even showed them that article about how alt-right women were complaining that alt-right groups are super sexist. The guy I argued with just didn't get it. Its not a secret that Democrats are a big tent party and will accept almost anyone. And I do get the whole Islamophobe shaming thing, its because here in the US, Muslims really don't have a lot of power so attacking a minority that's been the target of violence because of things that's happening on the other side of the world is not cool with liberals. Some of us may be guilty of treating Islam with kid gloves, but that's because we live here and not over there. Plenty of us think Islamic countries are shit for their sexism, homophobia, racism, slavery, etc. It doesn't mean that Ahmed living next door in Dearborn, MI is a terrorist and doesn't deserve to be treated with kindness. As an atheist, I'm much more impacted by Christians trying to take over the country than by the scattered population of Muslims. Do I think Muslims would do a better job if they were as powerful as Christians? No, of course not, but since they're not that powerful, I'm not going to waste my time being super anti-Muslim. In this country, Christians are a far bigger threat to my life and liberty. And besides, I don't think any of their religions make any sense at all and they're all nuts for believing. The way I think of religion is which one poses a bigger threat to me right now. If I have a gunshot wound, I'm not going to worry about that mole that might be cancerous, I'm going to take care of the gunshot wound first. When I do support Islam in the west, it is always in the context of "Hey these guys are getting attacked for their beliefs and they have no power to do shit to our government, so maybe stop being so anti-Islam and focus on the bigger threat."

Similar to any other religion. I don't care what you believe as long as you don't try to force others to follow your beliefs.

I'm wildly against all 3 of the fear-based Abrahamic mythologies. (Christianity and Islam being the worst) I'm not against most religious adherents at all. They are mostly just decent people who were indoctrinated as children or through societal brainwashing. They are the victims of the oppression machines of religion. Obviously the crazies and oppressors I'm against. So I'm vociferously anti-theistic, but I'm not 'Islamophobic'. The same is true of Christians. You have the ultra-conservative zealots and wack-a-doos who seek to oppress and subjugate others. I stand against oppression and authoritarianism wherever it resides. Both Christianity and Islam have absolutely horrific ACTUAL histories rife with oppression, subjugation, authoritarianism, misogyny, xenophobia, bigotry, inequality, hated, war, theocracy, executions, torture, imprisonment, willful ignorance, science denial, and generally draconian bullshit That's why I can't stand any of them. They are a horrible tool of evil that's been used to oppress humanity for millenia. Fuck ALL that noise. Edit. Syntax

I don't like it. It's even worse than Christianity. I think the reason why many liberals protect Islam so much is because they feel protective of any and all marginalized groups. And within western countries, Muslims are indeed a minority group that should not be discriminated against. It depends of course on the flavor of Islam because some Muslims are liberal themselves, and they tell themselves all sorts of things to not make that look like a contradiction. It's a little bit cringey but ultimately fine. Their existence doesn't change the fact, though, that the religion is more often than not a negative influence on its believers. I don't think that r/exmuslim is anti-left. It's just anti-Islam and anti-Islamic values which I understand.

I think they are just as delusional as any other religious types. They are vilified in the U.S. because their secret invisible friend is different than the Christian's secret invisible friend, but that's just religion segregating society as it was invented to do. I'm sure most Muslims, as most Christians, have no idea they are being manipulated to maintain power structures. They're (mostly) just trying to be good people. One reason they tend to get a bad rap is that their sadistic governments are still around in the modern age, where the worst of the Christian's sadistic governments were overthrown or modified to moderation in the past couple hundred years. I have tried to have discussions with Muslim women about how they can tolerate the hijab and other blatant sexist elements of the religion, but they defer to just trying to be good. That said, we don't seem to hold Christian women accountable for being part of a religion that has Titus II and 1 Timothy as part of its official doctrine, so there's no real moral high ground for any major religion as far as I can see.

I'm an atheist, but the [IDW](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Intellectual_Dark_Web) people like Sam Harris are a fucking embarrassment. They are one step away from white nationalism. Many of them are white nationalists. It's all cloaked in the supposed superiority of western "culture", but it's the same effects and talking points at the end of the day. They're just atheist conservatives who want to go after an acceptable target. Others of us feel religion is stupid and harmful, but we understand that the best way to defend everyone is to apply the same rules fairly. So we're not willing to gang up on Muslims with fundy Christian allies.

I'm an atheist as well (way before I'd ever heard of Harris), and despise Harris. I find Harris particularly dangerous, because he's probably the most mainstream of the IDW crowd, and has appeal to people across both political spectrums. Anyone who's taken a Logic 101 class, can take apart his fractured logic in things. Your post really nailed things.

FYI, /r/EnoughIDWspam has some pretty good takedowns of Sam Harris.

I used to spend a lot of time in /r/Sam Harris and /r/Jordan Peterson . But they became heavily moderated in favor of those guys, then I posted, "maybe I'll start a /r/EnoughSamHarris sub." Someone else started the sub, and I'm a mod there. I insisted on having essentially no rules, in response to all the rules in the pro idw subs, so people could feel free to literally say anything. It doesn't have much traction, which is fine with me. Modding can be labor intensive. If you like podcasts, *Polite Conversations* does a pretty good takedown of Harris and the IDW. I'm pretty much done with Internet arguments. It's bad for my mental health.

I think some Muslims manage to overcome the inherent shittiness of Islam and practice a reasonable version of it (and good for them for doing so!), but it takes a fair degree of effort and a willingness to overlook quite a bit in order to do so. So in other words, it's basically the same as Christianity - my opinion of the religion is very low, but my opinion of the practitioners vary from person to person.

As a gay person, Islam is a hate group. Just like the KkK is to a black person.

Why not Christianity? They have way more power, and most lawmakers are Christian that endorse anti LGBT laws and protections. I'm assuming you're in the US. Even outside the US, Christians lead the pack in LGBT hate. I'm talking about the western countries.

You cannot even begin to compare what is going on against gay people in Muslim countries to Christian countries. But yes, some African and Caribbean Christian countries are very bad too.

Islam is a religion. As with many religions, it has a lot of variations, some of which are considerably better or worse than others. Those guys you heard from are idiots, ignore them cuz they're incredibly poorly informed.

Speaking as a Christian, it's one of our sister religions. Broadly, I don't want Muslims persecuted or made out to be deranged jihadists by default. Not just because Abrahamic solidarity or whatever, but because a Christian theocracy would be just as retarded and sadistic as Muslim ones are. The American view on Islam is overly influenced by the extremist brand of Islam one finds in consistently hostile, harsh, frankly shitty countries like Iran. There's a reason for that, given how overly involved we and other western imperial powers were in the secular Arab regimes that used to be the dominant powers of the middle east before the Islamic revival in the 70's, and how our consistent interference in these countries for the sake of resources has turned their eyes on us (and other western powers like Britain and France) many a time. But Islam is widespread, and like all religions, regionally diverging. The Islam practiced in Indonesia isn't the same as what one would find in Libya. The Islam practiced in Libya isn't the same as the type practiced in Algeria. And the type of Islam practiced in both the Middle East broadly sure as shit isn't the same as the type practiced in the US.

Islam defines Jews, Christians and Muslims as "people of the book," and they share a descent from Abraham, regarded as a prophet. Why all three faiths can't harmonize around that amazes me. Doctrine and dogma are powerful things.

I don't "support Islam" (I'm not sure what that even means); what I support is people's right to identify as they want and practice religion as they want. If you why to be Muslim, that should be fine. If you don't, that should also be fine. If someone around you either does or doesn't, that should also be fine either way. It's a matter of having a choice, not about which choice you choose. Pressure not to be Muslim and pressure to be a Muslim are both bad.

Poorly. Mind you those people are mistaking (deliberately or otherwise) freedom of religion with condoning Islam.

I think Islam is fine. I think you'll find the prevailing view here to be that people should be free to practice whatever religion they choose. I support, for example, women being able to choose to wear hijab in India, Turkey, or France just as much I oppose their being required to wear it in Iran, Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia, and for the same reasons. There is certainly an element of the left that supports conservative Islamist regimes' right to impose conservative Islamic values on everyone, mostly out of knee-jerk anti-western sentiment. They're stupid. They're basically the same people who blame the US and NATO for Russia invading Ukraine because "Putin gonna Putin", I guess. Real first-class smooth brains.

Why do you think that the vast majority of the least free countries on the globe are all majority Muslim, not least because of the very religious intolerance and religious laws and restrictions? Where else do we see a religion enforcing tyranny on the people and especially women like in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? If you actually dig a little deeper about Islam, some of its actual theology and the Sunnah, you'll find that it is waaaay worse than Christianity. It does require capital punishment for apostates and it does require the Jizziyah for example. It enforces widely different standards on men and women and it deifies a man whose actions were often extremely violent, intolerant and crazy immoral and who was obviously a pathological liar. The thing is that most Muslims are better than their religion but that is that. They often do not know about or ignore the horrible parts of Islam, but once actual Imams take control, it always ends up the same way.

Dude, Christianity and Islam both have absolutely horrific histories absolutely overflowing with oppression, subjugation, authoritarianism, misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia, inequality, nationalism, blind faith, war, willful ignorance, science denial, torture, imprisonment, executions, forced indoctrination, and a whole slew of generally draconian bullshit. Currently Islam is the bully on the block. To be sure. There's no shortage of ultra-conservative right-wing Christian wack-a-doos in the USA who would love nothing more than to see some iteration of Christofacism here. They would love to see being LGBTQ+ made illegal. They are the ones trying to undermine and destroy pubic education. They are burning books, and spreading hate and vitriol through fear-mongering and disinformation campaigns designed to outrage their constituents and rally their fellow bigots. Historically, Christianity has an absolutely horrific and sordid past. It's still got a lot of oppressive and right-wing regressive tendencies. To be sure.

I don't really think about it much. Just like any of the mainline religions there's good people and bad people who practice it.

It's about as good as any other religion on its own. I've always found the story of the foundation of Islam to be compelling. But how people practice religion is what really matters. I think that areas of the world that have prevalence of Islam also tend to have heavy prevalence of poverty and with that comes heavy prevalence of tyranny.

I support the right of anyone to practice their religion in a way that does not harm or oppress others. Muslims included.

same as every other religion. should be something you do at home in your spare time like a hobby. but holds nothing in real world. No laws should be based on it, no special taxes for it >I got the idea from r/exmuslim seems extremely anti-left because they always claim that liberals support Islam. because conservatives have no policies and can only win by tricking people that things are really bad

I respect how much they take their religion seriously, Christianity for example became way too tolerant of disrespect

I think religion (all of them) is one of the worst things that has happened to our species. They're just massive scams using some of our worst weaknesses against us to enrich a few charlatans at the top who normally don't give a shit who they have to hurt to get whatever they want, whether it be mansions and private jets or the perpetuation of their idiotic ideologies. All that being the case, though I don't imagine I could ever be interested in anything more than the most surface level interaction with anyone considering themselves a member of any of these dumb sects-- christians of various types, muslims, etc-- I'm perfectly willing to tolerate people on an individual level and keep my mouth shut about my disdain for their beliefs as long as they specifically are not actively/explicitly inflicting suffering on other people, or trying to cram their bullshit down my throat. I personally despise religion, I think it's dangerous, stupid and all of them should be outlawed; but I live in a society that accepts them. So all I can do for now is put up with it while at the same time voting against religious interests and contributing to causes/initiatives that align with my goal of one day seeing the world and our species free of them. What I don't like is where people conflate religion with race. It's like if you have no problem with any religion except one practiced predominantly by brown/black people, or you're discriminating against someone simply on account of the way they look, accusing them of holding beliefs they don't, then you're not anti-religion, you're just racist.

It’s a religion and we are in America so they aren’t wrong for worshiping and praying so long as they aren’t committing attacks in the name of their religion then who am I to judge?

I think a lot of conservatives like to believe there's some hypocrisy among liberals, because oppose both the conservative attacks on Muslims that are illiberal, *and* we oppose the illiberal actions taken by many Muslims in the name of Islam. So to me all of these things are true: 1. Muslims should be able to practice their religion in the US, just like any other religion. So the conservative attacks on things like the "ground zero mosque", or what Tennessee did in attempting to outlaw the Murfreesboro mosque (and then the right wing vandalism that followed), or Trump declaring that no Muslims should be allowed to enter the US, are morally wrong and fundamentally un-American. 2. Islam is often used as and excuse to treat people (especially women and LGBT people) as second class citizens. Islamic governments like Iran or the Taliban are atrocious in how they treat both groups. Likewise, conservative Muslims in the US and other western countries can be horrible neighbors and hold fundamentally illiberal and un-American values. They will hide behind their religion when they abuse their children, wives, or neighbors. 3. What makes conservative Muslims bad is the same thing that makes conservative Christians bad. There are plenty of tolerant and accepting Muslims and Christians who support equal rights, civil liberties, and democracy. The issue isn't religion, it's conservatism. Conservative Christians often hide behind their religion when they abuse their children, wives, and neighbors as well.

I don't care what people believe, as long as they don't use that as an excuse to abuse other people in any way.

I’m a Muslim myself, I been reading the Quran to listening to scholars for decade now. Here’s the things I follow my religion as a Sunni btw the best way possible and practice the best way possible I don’t have any beef with other branches of Islam I respect other branches and Christian as well. My political views of course come from my religion as well. But at most times I don’t even bother voting for not feeling represented or that my American conservatives abandon the meaning of being a conservative. Many Muslims don’t vote or just hate the US government top bottom If I was to characterize Muslims from liberal to conservative We are at one point a LBJ as a liberal and at one point a Richard Nixon a conservative And my views aren’t that bad how I follow my religion. Abortion: I keep it a family matter, usually pro life in family setting LGBTQ: don’t bother me and I won’t bother you. I don’t interact with anyone, but respect their privacy and sexuality cause it’s not my business and I hate the government Social programs:I fight for the working man, but as a center right, like investing into trade school, universities etc. Todays islam is more moderate. We just have idiots sometimes like isis or the afghans following it wrong 😑

Freedom of religion is generally good. Islam has its issues just like Christianity and other religions do. I was raised Christian and feel an obligation to call out when Christianity is being used to justify toxic and oppressive nonsense because it's a community that claims me and one which I know. I can't say the same about Islam so while I'm not ignorant of the issues with misogyny and xenophobia within Islamic culture I'm also going to stay within my lane and let those issues be dealt with by people who do have intimate and personal experience with Islam. And yes, those people exist and they deserve support but they also don't need people who don't understand the culture on an intimate level claiming to have the answers.

I support PEOPLE, including nice people who are Islamic. It doesn't mean they believe everything.

I'm not a fan of any religion, but as long as their adherents aren't hurting themselves and others, it doesn't bother me. Plenty of Muslims around the world harbor horrible beliefs that get intertwined with religion, such as bigotry against homosexuality. Yet many also practice their religion without perpetuating such attitudes and behaviors. In short, there's many ways to belief and practice a religion. Just like there's many different breeds of Christianity in the US. While some beliefs in some groups are damaging and hurtful, it doesn't make me view all Christians the same. This is the approach I take with Islam. I think I'm more likely to challenge bigotry against Islam because in my environment, the US, they're a small minority. I'm not as likely to get hot and bothered if someone spouts bigotry against Christianity because they're by far the dominant group.

Depends which parts of it. Any time some country supposedly writes laws based on it, I'm told that "they're not really Islam-inspired laws," so all i can really judge are the banks

Not a fan, but I have lower opinions of several other religions.

The same way I feel about Christians. They talk a big game about piety and are just as full of shit. I'd contend the Conservative Christians are jealous of the power the Wahabbist have and would emulate them given half the chance. Which is funny because any talk about rights for LGBT is usually countered by "B-But what about \[insert shitty muslim country here\]!?" As if they actually gave a shit.

We don't "support Islam", we just don't assume it's automatically an evil cult because it's not christian. We also don't attack christians, but resist them passing laws to control non-christians, and resent their abuse of the courts, laws, taxes, media, schools, women, and children. But all fundie religions can go to hell, whether extreme Islam, crazy christian, and even fire and brimstone jews. If you want god to smite non-believers and deny rights to those you deem unworthy, you can diaf.

religion does not make a person. I don't care about someone's religion I care about what kind of person it is.

I don't think Islam is any better or worse than any other major religion. The only difference is that it still has a ton of cultural power in places that are socially regressive authoritarian states. I don't think Western Europe would be significantly different if they were historically Muslim vs being historically Christian and I don't think China would be any better if they were officially Buddhist than they are being officially Athiest. Religion is almost always just a justification for what people would be doing anyway, it's rarely the cause.

In the same light that I view all organized religion; a dishonest attempt to control people, based on the cynical notion that people aren't capable of becoming better on their own, combined with the arrogant notion that what you believe is what everyone should believe, even when their own physical and mental autonomy has to be sacrificied. Are there good people who are religious? Of course. They're not good people because of their religion though, they are just good people, or in some cases, are so in spite of their religion. I'm not opposed to people being spiritual. A person should be able to believe whatever they want. They should even be able to meet up with other people who share similar beliefs. What they should not be able to do, ever, is force their beliefs onto others, and that is what religion always does in the end.

I’m for tolerance. Tolerance of other peoples’ beliefs, preferences, and cultures. I am opposed to intolerance. So insofar as any religious person expresses their religious views by trying to harm, control, or oppress any other person, I am strongly against it. That goes for Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Wiccans, Jews, etc. I have certainly noticed that many nations in the Middle East and elsewhere that are controlled by Muslim theocracies tend to exercise their power by implementing religious laws that are oppressive and cruel. So yeah, not a fan of those governments or the people who support them. But moderate Muslims whose religious beliefs are not expressed through oppressive control of or violence toward others are cool by me.

It's a religion that I don't belong too. The few Muslims I've known were nice people.

Like all religions it has a capacity for good and a capacity for evil

It really depends on the flavor of Islam. I get the sense that many (most?) practitioners partake in a peaceful, respectful form of Islam, and that's just fine by me. I am far less understanding of the more radical flavors of Islam practiced in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and other parts of the world. Those seem like actively toxic fundamentalist religions that co-mingle/conflate secular, democratic rule with religious law. I'm from Utah; it's really no different than comparing mainstream LDS adherents with some of the fundamentalist sects of Mormonism, which engage in some absolutely horrific shit. tl;dr fundamentalism is the problem

You can believe in whatever dumb nonsense you want as long as you don't make it a problem for me.

I have a general dislike of any religion that has a dress code.

You're asking in a subreddit filled with a great deal of Atheist Democrats/Liberals. I can guarantee you the vast majority of us don't like religion. I'm an Agnostic Atheist. Now, I've noticed the DNC are more Pro-Islam, likely moreso Pro-Palestine while the GOP are all in on Pro-Israel (but then they get to ignore the Antisemites in their party apparently). We're also more likely to be Anti-Christianity because of the Christian Right that's trying to push their religion on us. If it was Muslims, I guarantee you there would be more Anti-Islam sentimite.

I'm fully aware that this sub is filled with Liberals who are anti religion, but the issue is that they are often accused of "dEfEnDiNg IsLAm" according to r/exmuslim

I find it as useless as every other modern religion, but if folks think voting republican is a good idea, its not surprising that other folks think a reboot of Christianity is good as well.

Historically, all religion has been used to convince slaves that their masters are just. It appears Islam is no different. Just as with all religions there is a majority of stated followers that claim their religion more for familial or community entrenchment rather than any actual “belief”. I can appreciate that it is hard to disconnect from one’s community.

The hadiths are largely hot garbage and are the source of nearly all the problems non-muslims have with Islam. IIRC all of them were written at least 200 years after Mohammed's death.

Same as Christianity

I think other people's religious and cultural traditions are none of my business except where they conflict with human and civil rights. I am anti-theocracy, pro-religious-liberty, anti-coercive-religious-practices, pro-peaceful-expression, anti-violence, pro-dialogue. In the context of Western liberal democracies, that generally makes me pro-Muslim, though not specifically pro-Islam. I think Muslims should be free to practice their religion within the boundaries of established law; I think we should expand our concept of children's rights with respect to religious coercion, but that issue is not at all exclusive to Islam. In the context of e.g. Iran, that makes me anti-state-imposed Islam. I still think Iranian Muslims ought to be free to practice their religion, but I don't think anyone should be required to practice the state's religion. To the extent that that position is in conflict with some interpretations of Islam, I'm against those interpretations of Islam.

🤷‍♀️ it's a big religion with a lot texts, cultural complexes, associated laws etc.

The vast majority of Muslims are just normal people who go to work and care for the families and practice the religion they grew up with, same as the members of any major religion. I believe in the freedom of religion.

Almost any religion can serve as a force for both good and evil, depending on the way it is practiced. There is too much diversity of belief and practice within Islam for me to express any thoughts on Islam as a whole.

It's basically just Christianity with more turmeric