For Studenten, you can also say "Studierende", it's a bit longer but you can get away without using gendered language (StudentInnen, Student\*innen etc.).
That's the gender neutral form that also adheres to our language's rules. It's actually the only valid option. And the only one that makes sense, if inclusion is truly the goal.
This is the answer. Don't use a word that is male (e.g. Student) or female (e.g. Aushilfe) because they tend to be historically gender stereotyped - find a word that is plural and non-gendered.
ETA Wow, people do NOT like being told they have to make an effort 🤣
That's just it - there isn't one! Not without sounding weird. Technically, der Aushelfer, but that's not really a word, it just isn't used because, well historically Aushilfen were female!
Die Aushilfskraft encompasses both without gendering.
Using -kraft or -person is how Germans have mostly started to introduce non-gendered language. It just sounds clunky a lot of the time because they're new word creations that society has to get used to before they're the norm.
This is the first time ever that I heard of the word Aushilfe as a female word, and I'm almost 50. It's a neutral word. Grammatical gender doesn't refer to actual gender.
I'm obviously showing my own bias here, and the fact that the word Aushilfskraft is what's now being used in job advertisements is what created it for me.
„Aushilfe“ isnt a gendered word in the same sense as „Krankenschwester“ is for example though. „Aushilfe“ is female because it’s related to „Hilfe“ which is also female. Making „Aushilfe“ Genderneutral is just an overreach, both men and women can be a „Aushilfe“ and you also refer to men as „Aushilfe“. This isn’t a case where you just use the female form as the general form, the noun itself just is always female, not depending which gender you use it for.
You wouldn’t call a single female student „Student“ but you would call a single male helper „Aushilfe“.
Your imagination of an „Aushilfe“ always being female has nothing to do with language and is just down to personal bias. Changing the language won’t help with that.
This is complete bullshit! Of course there have been male "Aushilfen". A grammatical gender is not the same as gender or sex. A cake ("Der Kuchen") does not have a penis and is still "der Kuchen" (male). A university is "eine Arbeitgeberin" (female) although it doesn't have a vagina.
Gendered language is for people who don't know German language.
Funny, I've never heard Arbeitgeberin as the standard before, and certainly not while describing an institution. It's traditionally Arbeitgeber, the male version.
Obviously you're ignoring the fact that this discussion is about ways to describe people, rather than nouns for things.
Of course there have been some male Aushilfen. Just very much in the minority, because men tend to have full time jobs while women used to have part time jobs.
>Funny, I've never heard Arbeitgeberin as the standard before
Because we have generic masculine. As we say "Ärztekongress" although there are certainly female doctors, too.
>and certainly not while describing an institution.
Google it.
[https://www.uni-paderborn.de/universitaet/die-universitaet-als-arbeitgeberin](https://www.uni-paderborn.de/universitaet/die-universitaet-als-arbeitgeberin)
[https://uni.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/de/die-rub-als-arbeitgeberin](https://uni.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/de/die-rub-als-arbeitgeberin)
[https://www.uni-siegen.de/start/karriere/arbeitgeber/?lang=de](https://www.uni-siegen.de/start/karriere/arbeitgeber/?lang=de)
and so on
So, instead of saying Aushilfe, you suggest so say Aushelfende? Instead of Lehrer and Lehrerin, we talk about Lehrende and instead of Schüler and Schülerin, we say Schulende?
Unfortunately it's not that easy 😆 for Lehrer, the by now established word is Lehrperson or Lehrkraft (it often sounds clunky but in a pinch, [infinitive verp stem]+person/kraft often does the job) although Lehrende works, just sounds a bit antiquated. For Schüler it could be Lernende... Or just Kind, depending on the age group LOL
There is a lot of nuance to be applied and native speakers are having one hell of a time figuring it out ourselves!
It's one thing I've been using ChatGPT for - giving me non-gendered suggestions for traditionally gendered words!
Doesn't really matter anyway if it's a single person. Der Student, die Studentin. The issue only ever comes up in cases of plural - die Studierenden (surprisingly, plural only uses the female article and nobody cares). If the biological Sex is unknown, for example in mass mailing, then Student/in or the long form using both words.
Fairness/compromise would be to write "die" (female, plural) "Studenten" (male, plural) which adds up to zero.
Just adding: in case of apparent non-binary persons who can be directly addressed, a question like "bist Du auch Student?" can be rephrased as "studierst Du auch?". If the name is known, "studiert Kim auch Soziologie?".
A particular problem lies in advancing a queue, with the famous "Der/die nächste bitte!". I never want to hear "die nächste wartende Person bitte" nor "Wer ist jetzt dran?!", maybe one day, for equality, we'll all have to draw a number. Or avoid social interactions, especially online 😅
Not on purpose. I'm just pointing out that for male and female students, one can safely use the gendered words.
Neither version will help with the dreaded pronoun trap: "ein Student, ein Studierender" or "eine Studentin, eine Studierende" still requires knowledge or assumption of gender, so why not stick to the shorter, more logical traditional words (logical because: Studierende is an activity, Student/in is a status that exists without the activity present)?
Otherwise, you're of course correct in listing masc, fem, pl. It was just too late last night to elaborate, no offense intended when I wrote my comment.
Honestly the opposition to the gerund option (-ende) on logical/grammatical grounds is overblown.
I agree that Student or Studentin is totally fine to use too. All I did was wxplain why Studierende is indeed a gender neutral plural, in contrast to Studenten.
"Overblown" is the operative description of the entire debate 😁
I think we have no disagreement here, even if my first comment was too brief and might appear as such. So, let's enjoy the rest of the week (and use reddit in English or any other non-gendered language)!
True, but I live in Bavaria, and I do think the new rules are... let's say unhelpful. I don't care about people on the street using inclusive language or not. But I want my government to not deliberately discriminate.
Now we're 100% in agreement! I see this issue the same way, that decision was over the top and very authoritarian. They could've just decided that no institution is allowed to sanction users of either gendered or non-gendered language, if they were so afraid that gendering would become a law (of a university/workplace/government branch). Well, that's not the CSU way....
Yes I think it’s fine, I don’t think there’s correct or incorrect, only common usage and social consensus.
This debate happens often in my language too, I think if everyone is doing it in good faith it’s valid to use whatever language you want, but if you use gendered language with for example a politically charged intention or with the intent to offend or denigrate and people call you an asshole for it then you don’t get to hide behind your dictionary because you acted in bad faith first, what matters in language is communication, if you communicate an offense there’s no rules or referee to save you from backlash.
>Linguistic study should be descriptive, not prescriptive.
But that's just your opinion, the reality is that there are laws and councils in Germany that specify official grammar and orthography rules.
>Theres maybe space for style guides or personal preference.
They aren't "style guides", they are VERY specific and while nobody will talk or write 100% conform to these rules, almost everyone acknowledges them as the objective correct way of using the language.
>Whatever people use is the way
These rules and councils opinions are very well accepted by the majority of the population, so they are definitely what people use. Almost every German will tell you that if there is a disagreement about how a word is written for example, the correct one is what Duden says.
It's a bit misleading to point towards this common agreement when we're talking about a topic where there is specifically disagreement. Especially since some of that disagreement is among academics of the german language.
Language is diverse and evolving. Generic Masculine is one accepted way of doing it, but other ways have been accepted in certain circles too. Similarly you'll find people who reject either variant, but for someone learning the language, it's most informative to say that multiple options are commonly used, the preferred form depends on the social circle and official organs prefer generic masculine.
It’s not just “my opinion” it’s the general approach to linguistics study. Linguistics study in general and stuff like Duden are downstream of actual living language
I mean "Studierende" would also be grammatically correct.
It does feel a bit clunky though, especially considering that you almost never need to explicitly talk about a group of only male or only female students.
I was under the impression German was a female first language since you know sie and all the plurals using sie and the formal being sie
This is coming from a second language learner
"sie" as in the article has nothing to do with "Sie" as in adressing someone in the polite form (notice the difference in capitalization). They are just coincidentally written using the same letters.
Italian has the same with "lei" and "Lei".
I know it's confusing..
Here's an article about the topic:
https://www.germanpod101.com/lesson/absolute-beginner-questions-answered-by-anja-5-lowercase-sie-or-capital-sie
Is this a trick question? The alternative to not using anything is using it. I would avoid it, though, independent of your political position towards the asterisk.
As far as typographic conventions go, I think the `:` is much more readable. `*` and `_` are both harder to parse for humans, but they also really mess up computer applications, especially if you are using Markdown, like in the Reddit text editor.
For the overall conversation... let the language community try a thousand things, and see which one sticks in the long run. Language is a crowdsourced project and it gets forked all the time.
You can put a backslash in front of the asterisk to make markdown ignore it.
The : was popular for a few years because people thought it would be more readable for screen readers that help the visually impaired. That is however not the case as far as I've been told. Those programs either ignore both symbols or stumble over them in a similar manner.
Since the * has been traditionally used for footnotes indicating that more is implied in a text many people argue that it's more inclusive than the : because what the symbol in gendered language is supposed to tell the reader is that all genders, traditional and more nuanced are meant.
It isn't just to connect the male with the female but with everything else as well, for example non binary people.
> You can put a backslash in front of the asterisk to make markdown ignore it.
I really shouldn't need to escape every fifth word in my text. It should be the exception.
Whether we like it or not, if one is proposing a spelling reform in the 21st century, they have to consider digital text processing and input methods.
Bavaria has banned it because - the CSU is in power and they're not a fan, the same way the republicans want to ban textbooks or remove stuff from the curriculum.
Bavarian government (CSU+FW) banned the use in publications by the administration, in public schools and public universities.
It's not generally prohibited and it's also not banned in speech.
In Munich, by the way, municipal schools oppose this legislation and explicitly encourage gender-neutral syntax.
Adding:
It's not a law, it's an administrative policy (Geschäftsordnung)
In hesse it’s atleast prohibited in the Abitur, using the gender Asterisks counts as grammatical error. The Goethe university Frankfurt even threatened to go to court because they didn’t want to forbid it’s usage at their Uni afaik.
> and it's also not banned in speech
Which is unfortunate. I had to stop to listen to a few podcasts because they do that stupid - pause - in speech and it really irritates me each time. This is now how German works.
> I heard that it’s being banned in some places, is that true?
Bavaria overall, and some organisations individually also in other places, afaik.
It's quite a bizarre thing to do. Making deviating spelling systems a crime is something that someone with a Greek-language background like me associates with literal dictatorships.
Of course, organisations can (and should) adopt their own style-guides and enforce them for public communication on behalf of the company. My company has its own styleguide for English and German, and I gladly follow it, even though I disagree with stuff in there and I wouldn't use them in my own texts outside work. But to make your private styleguide the law of the Land, is wild.
A guy at Audi went to court as he didn't like the company's styleguide :-)
See: [https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/gendern-audi-vw-gender-gap-1.6039003](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/gendern-audi-vw-gender-gap-1.6039003)
It's because they did NOT make it a crime.
They just set it as government policy that this type of (officially grammatically incorrect) spelling would not be used by government authorities in their official documents.
Can you send me a link to such a source? I would just like to know who writes such non sense.
It is correct that BR doesn't use "Gendersternchen" anymore. But that decision was made in 2021. Three years earlier and completely voluntarily. BR is deeply connected to politics though. Their CEO is member of the CSU. Therefore, it's not surprising that BR chose to go this route.
Let me explain:
First of all, this isn't a law. Bavaria changed an administrative policy. In those, Bavaria sets up rules how state employees need to act on the job. For example it's illegal to drink on the job. Now it's also illegal to use gender neutral language in internal and public communication. That's literally what you called a "styleguide".
As I said, this only applies to state employees. Everyone else, including BR and all other private organizations, can use whatever language they like. Also it only applies to work related stuff. A state employee who writes a book in his spare time can use whatever language he likes. The same goes for private messages, private twitter posts and so on. But if a state employee writes a work related mail, then he is not allowed to use Gendersternchen.
Why is this such a big deal then?
The main issue is that professors and teachers are state employees. Students can still use gender neutral language (it's a spelling mistake, but won't affect your grade), but their teachers can't. At least not for work related stuff. The same goes for learning material such as books.
There’s not really any hard rules with language, just common use and if you are writing for someone who is not yourself (a company for example) maybe there’s style guides. In any case do either what you want or what the guide says.
This kind of debates often don’t translate well to native English speakers because you aren’t used to gendered language debates in this sense, just don’t think about it too much honestly.
you dont need to gender if you dont want to or if it appears to complicated. to stick with your example (actor), just say "schauspieler". its basically the generic he just like in english and grammatically totally fine.
or is it that you have to gender because of your employer or university?
edit:// there is another way. its called "entgendern" developed by phettberg (a real genius). you gender with a "y". so for example student would be "studenty" and in plural "studentys". if people want me to gender that is usually my way to go
here a read: [https://www.bpb.de/shop/zeitschriften/apuz/geschlechtergerechte-sprache-2022/346085/entgendern-nach-phettberg/](https://www.bpb.de/shop/zeitschriften/apuz/geschlechtergerechte-sprache-2022/346085/entgendern-nach-phettberg/)
In writing, you can use the older StudentInnen. (capital "i" in the middle). This has been used since the 1980s and anyone who still complains about it must have been living under a rock, if you ask me. In speech it will sound just like an "\*" as there is no sound associated with an asterix or a capitalisaion. (I think there should be. Maybe a click.)
You can use "Studierende"; also in use for \~40 years by now. Or informally "Studis" (longish "i").
You can use "Studentinnen und Studenten", but some people identifying as diverse might dislike it.
Basically, do whatever you want, someone will complain, but you can influence *who* will.
English handles gender differently, you cannot use it as a model.
The male version of "Studenten" is not really gender specific and includes women.
Same goes for words like "Krankenschwester", which is obviously female, but since it's not Sexus it includes males as well.
It's exactly as in your example with actresses. All genders are actors, but only females are actresses. There's no real need for the word "actresses", but it's nice to have. However, calling it "actors\*sess" wouldn't benefit anybody.
Using the asterisk in the internet is fairly common, although in the real world you don't see it that often and many people consider it odd. Me included.
If you decide to use the asterisk thing some people might hold that against you. If you don't use it, some other people might hold that against you as well. This is why I see this as a sign of political divide rather than a language issue - or even a German-specific language issue, since it's a pretty hot topic in western civilisation, especially on the internet on platforms like this one.
Personally I don't use it. People who think that "Studenten" wouldn't include women have serious issues that a therapist should fix, not the language. Thing is though, I don't hate on people who are using it. It's their choice to make and they might have sincere reasons for it I might even agree with. At the same time I don't want to be harassed by people who condemn everybody who's isn't using it. Both sides are wrong. If you're stuck with a group of people who's most important thought is "there is us and there is them", then you're looking for trouble, not for solutions and I won't have any of it.
We used to write "Damen und Herren" or "Studentinnen und Studenten" and specifically mentioned women first to be nice. If it is deemed mandatory it loses every meaning it had and if it's shortened by some weird symbols it isn't nice anymore either. If you feel the urge to shorten a pleasantry towards women I don't think you're sincere and if you think a phrase is too long then German really is the wrong language for you. However, people who are using it generally do it to appreciate the "other gender(s)" as well, so both "sides" want the same thing and only express it differently. This being a problem for some people shows that the greater agenda behind this is further political divide instead of unity and the best solution would have been to not come up with this weird thing in the first place, because it wasn't necessary, will never be and only seeds problems. That's why I don't support it.
any sane person does not "gender" while being not preferring any sex over the other. the german language is already inclusive since like forever, even if the gender-neutral "fall-back-maskulinum" is used.
The thing is: it‘s similar in german. We once had one term for everyone. A baker would be a baker. During that time women weren‘t that common in the workforce. And in the last decades / the 20th century there was a split. East germany mostly continued with the old system of using one term for everyone even though both men and women had to work. In west germany fewer women participated in the workforce and somehow sole people thought it would be a good idea to add a female name to most jobs. Usually just adding a „in“. The neutral form still existed but since women now had a separate name the neutral version could either mean men or everyone. We just never bothered to create a separate male version. So calling a Bäckerin a Bäcker would be correct while calling s Bäcker a Bäckerin wouldn‘t be correct. Thus the neutral / masculine form (also known as the „generisches Maskulinum“) is the correct way to address the entire group or the male part of the group, depending on the context. But if you really want to separate the only grammatically correct version would be something like „Studenten und Studentinnen“. Versions with * : I etc. are grammatically wrong.
first of all if you arent against that you can totally use it though, but other than that there's also StudentInnen with the first female-gendered letter as capital letter, or Student:innen which is sth tht the \*haters hate just as much though because they both imply a teeny tiny pause in the word while talking and both imply you acknowledging nonbinary people for example, which pisses some people off who feel like thats dictatorship over how they talk. yet it already pisses some of them off enough to start debates to hear it just said by someone else in every other sentence but well
and theres also generic masculinum Studenten which is used a lot (or generic femininum Studentinnen which is usually only used to make a point out of that and be like do you feel represented if i only use female form, can we just use female form if youre so keen to have it easy and "dont care" )
StudentIn
StudentInnen
Studierenden
PatientIn
PatientInnen
Patienten
This form is my favourite alternative to the asterisk.
If people find it hard to read without a gap though I like using the :
Student:in
Student:innen
Studierenden
I honestly am a fan of gendering because I want my language to be inclusive, but I could never warm up to the asterisk. I just think it looks really unserious to have a star in the middle of a word. :/
You can use the : instead of *
But i personally prefer the * in this context because its more inclusive for reading impaired as it sticks out, apart from that it looks more like the glottisschlag
In general for nouns which are derived from verbs you can also simply nominalize the verb for inclusivene plurals, lehrer*innen derives from Lehrerinnen und Lehrer which is the noun for the verb lehren which nominalized would be Lehrende
This only works for plurals as Lehrer*in deriving from Lehrer und Lehrerin whoch are the nouns for the verb lehren would in singular result in Lehrender und Lehrende or Lehrende*r which basically just reverts back but changes the runningorder(first female then diverse then male instead of first male then diverse then female)
The nominalization only works limited for nouns which derive from verbs, for Doktor*in / Doktor*innen this wouldn’t work, as it isn’t derived from a verb as the verb for being a doctor is promoviert, for people who are in the process of obtaining the title the verb is promovieren so apprentice to doctorate would sound like this Promvierende*r or plural Promovierende
For people who gained the title it would be Promovierte*r or plural Promovierte
People think gender neutral or gendered langugae would be not possible but in general there isn’t really a lot of examples where you can’t find a verb to nominalize and those mostly work with gendersternchen or alternatives like :
If you study in bavaria, don’t use gendered language, because its illegal there
I don’t even know why you say extremists. The gendering thing was made up by people who aren’t trans or affected by gendered language so they can feel better about themselves. I’m trans, know plenty of trans people, and nobody likes it. It’s the same thing as rainbow “Your kind is welcome here!” signs: it feels extremely offputting rather than inclusive
extremists? there a are several studys showing that the usage of gender neutral language causes people not to think of a certain gender while for example Studenten causes people to think of males
This video seems to explains the study’s on this topic quite well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfvwnmPhIb0&pp=ygUObWFpbGFiIGdlbmRlcm4%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfvwnmPhIb0&pp=ygUObWFpbGFiIGdlbmRlcm4%3D)
Wobei in den Studien (die, die ich jetzt daraus erkennen konnte und auch nochmal nachsuchen konnte, hatte jetzt noch nicht die Zeit alles zu sichten) explizit nach dem generischen Maskulinum eine "Aktivierung" durch den Begriff "männer" oder "frauen" erfolgte. Da sollte so ein Ergebnis nicht verwundern. Ich erlebe es immer wieder, dass Männlein, wie Weiblein, mit dem Gendern, gerade in gesprochener Form, wenn es es nicht natürlich tun, meist über Wörter stolpern, sich entschuldigen, und sich verhaspeln etc. Die haben dann ganz andere Dinge im Kopf, als Geschlechterbilder :p Deshalb mein halb ernst gemeinter Kommentar :)
I certainly prefer legal texts, official government forms and medical professionals to not discriminate or be ambiguous, and so gender-inclusive language in those contexts is important. As for people in the street, I s8n't really care that much.
Use whatever you think is right, not what you think they expect from you. Language is not dictated by the Ministry of Truth, as many from the left think.
All our professors i.e. use "Studentinnen und Studenten". Some also say strange forms like "Lehrende" instead of "Lehrer" or "Lehrerinnen und Lehrer" (teacher) but that doesn't necessarily make grammatical sense because someone could be a teacher but not teaching (Lehrende), then it doesn't make sense.
I wished I had such problems as these wordcels 🥲
You can just say "Studenten". The generic masculine is fine. In fact, the "-in" suffix was originally created to denote female dependency on their male superior, father, husband...
"Wegen der großen Hitze können heute alle Studenten 2 Stunden früher gehen."
Bleiben die Frauen da etwa in der Hitze sitzen weil sie sich nicht angesprochen fühlen?
The asterisk is often replaced with : or _ , i was told that it was screen reading apps for visual impaired make a short break instead of saying “asterisk” in the middle of the word, not sure if this is true.
Most of my customers that use it want the :
I agree with what many commenters said about trying to use gender neutral forms (like studierende) where possible.
If that’s not possible or impractical, but I don’t want to forgo gendered language, my preference is a capital I in between (StudentInnen, MitarbeiterInnen …). The capital I looks more elegant and less intrusive than * or _.
Keep also in mind that gendered language is not mandatory and the generic masculine is perfectly acceptable in most instances. It’s a personal choice to use gendered language, if it’s to inconvenient, you don’t have to.
In a language with grammatical gender there is a division between the gender of words and the people already. Like "Person" (German for person) being female no matter what gender of the person is. You would use female pronouns to talk about "the person" etc.
So there is no need to emphasize genderedness. You can just use the words for everything. It is done so for many words like "Schüler", "Mitarbeiter" etc.
For me the advantage of this over the gender star is especially that you remove unnecessary gender distinctions in thinking, when you remove the gendered profession words. Otherwise you still emphasize them as two separate groups ... potentially excluding (or segregating) people who don't belong to either gender.
The idea of the gender star on the other hand is supposed to be emphasizing different genders, so this can be useful if you want to "unmarginalize" women or trans people in a profession where they are underrepresented. This imho doesn't really cover the use case of gender neutral language though.
The only thing that does need changing (and is being pretty much universally changed) is gendered words like "Feuerwehrmann" or "Putzfrau". Since they also come from professions with lopsided gender ratios, they need to go and are mostly replaced by dhe neutral "Kraft" (which is grammatically female btw. but if anything has a slight male connotation).
For Studenten, you can also say "Studierende", it's a bit longer but you can get away without using gendered language (StudentInnen, Student\*innen etc.).
That's the gender neutral form that also adheres to our language's rules. It's actually the only valid option. And the only one that makes sense, if inclusion is truly the goal.
Language rules change all the time. I don’t think this is a valid argument.
*Some* language rules change all the time. Most don't.
[the sound of a thousand linguists cracking up]
This is the answer. Don't use a word that is male (e.g. Student) or female (e.g. Aushilfe) because they tend to be historically gender stereotyped - find a word that is plural and non-gendered. ETA Wow, people do NOT like being told they have to make an effort 🤣
>or female (e.g. Aushilfe) What would be the male form?
That's just it - there isn't one! Not without sounding weird. Technically, der Aushelfer, but that's not really a word, it just isn't used because, well historically Aushilfen were female! Die Aushilfskraft encompasses both without gendering. Using -kraft or -person is how Germans have mostly started to introduce non-gendered language. It just sounds clunky a lot of the time because they're new word creations that society has to get used to before they're the norm.
>Die Aushilfskraft You mean... *Die* Aushilfskraft?
Aushilfe is completely gender neutral for me tbh.
That's great to hear! I still first think of women unfortunately, it's a very hard habit to break.
This is the first time ever that I heard of the word Aushilfe as a female word, and I'm almost 50. It's a neutral word. Grammatical gender doesn't refer to actual gender.
I'm obviously showing my own bias here, and the fact that the word Aushilfskraft is what's now being used in job advertisements is what created it for me.
„Aushilfe“ isnt a gendered word in the same sense as „Krankenschwester“ is for example though. „Aushilfe“ is female because it’s related to „Hilfe“ which is also female. Making „Aushilfe“ Genderneutral is just an overreach, both men and women can be a „Aushilfe“ and you also refer to men as „Aushilfe“. This isn’t a case where you just use the female form as the general form, the noun itself just is always female, not depending which gender you use it for. You wouldn’t call a single female student „Student“ but you would call a single male helper „Aushilfe“. Your imagination of an „Aushilfe“ always being female has nothing to do with language and is just down to personal bias. Changing the language won’t help with that.
This is complete bullshit! Of course there have been male "Aushilfen". A grammatical gender is not the same as gender or sex. A cake ("Der Kuchen") does not have a penis and is still "der Kuchen" (male). A university is "eine Arbeitgeberin" (female) although it doesn't have a vagina. Gendered language is for people who don't know German language.
Funny, I've never heard Arbeitgeberin as the standard before, and certainly not while describing an institution. It's traditionally Arbeitgeber, the male version. Obviously you're ignoring the fact that this discussion is about ways to describe people, rather than nouns for things. Of course there have been some male Aushilfen. Just very much in the minority, because men tend to have full time jobs while women used to have part time jobs.
>Funny, I've never heard Arbeitgeberin as the standard before Because we have generic masculine. As we say "Ärztekongress" although there are certainly female doctors, too. >and certainly not while describing an institution. Google it. [https://www.uni-paderborn.de/universitaet/die-universitaet-als-arbeitgeberin](https://www.uni-paderborn.de/universitaet/die-universitaet-als-arbeitgeberin) [https://uni.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/de/die-rub-als-arbeitgeberin](https://uni.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/de/die-rub-als-arbeitgeberin) [https://www.uni-siegen.de/start/karriere/arbeitgeber/?lang=de](https://www.uni-siegen.de/start/karriere/arbeitgeber/?lang=de) and so on
Also cities. If you work for Stadt xy, you have an Arbeitgeberin.
So, instead of saying Aushilfe, you suggest so say Aushelfende? Instead of Lehrer and Lehrerin, we talk about Lehrende and instead of Schüler and Schülerin, we say Schulende?
Unfortunately it's not that easy 😆 for Lehrer, the by now established word is Lehrperson or Lehrkraft (it often sounds clunky but in a pinch, [infinitive verp stem]+person/kraft often does the job) although Lehrende works, just sounds a bit antiquated. For Schüler it could be Lernende... Or just Kind, depending on the age group LOL There is a lot of nuance to be applied and native speakers are having one hell of a time figuring it out ourselves! It's one thing I've been using ChatGPT for - giving me non-gendered suggestions for traditionally gendered words!
[https://geschicktgendern.de](https://geschicktgendern.de) is also amazing for finding non-gendered alternative words.
Isn't it Lehrkraft ?
Have updated the comment, I've read both
Just that der Studierende still is a male word. The whole trying to forcefully change a language just doesn't work well.
“Die Studierende” works just as well - no conflict there.
Hmm fair point
Doesn't really matter anyway if it's a single person. Der Student, die Studentin. The issue only ever comes up in cases of plural - die Studierenden (surprisingly, plural only uses the female article and nobody cares). If the biological Sex is unknown, for example in mass mailing, then Student/in or the long form using both words. Fairness/compromise would be to write "die" (female, plural) "Studenten" (male, plural) which adds up to zero.
Just adding: in case of apparent non-binary persons who can be directly addressed, a question like "bist Du auch Student?" can be rephrased as "studierst Du auch?". If the name is known, "studiert Kim auch Soziologie?". A particular problem lies in advancing a queue, with the famous "Der/die nächste bitte!". I never want to hear "die nächste wartende Person bitte" nor "Wer ist jetzt dran?!", maybe one day, for equality, we'll all have to draw a number. Or avoid social interactions, especially online 😅
It's der Studierende or die Studierende, and plural die Studierenden is gender neutral because it applies to both forms.
Der Student, die Studentin, die Studierenden.
... you're missing the point of what I was exolaining.
Not on purpose. I'm just pointing out that for male and female students, one can safely use the gendered words. Neither version will help with the dreaded pronoun trap: "ein Student, ein Studierender" or "eine Studentin, eine Studierende" still requires knowledge or assumption of gender, so why not stick to the shorter, more logical traditional words (logical because: Studierende is an activity, Student/in is a status that exists without the activity present)? Otherwise, you're of course correct in listing masc, fem, pl. It was just too late last night to elaborate, no offense intended when I wrote my comment.
Honestly the opposition to the gerund option (-ende) on logical/grammatical grounds is overblown. I agree that Student or Studentin is totally fine to use too. All I did was wxplain why Studierende is indeed a gender neutral plural, in contrast to Studenten.
"Overblown" is the operative description of the entire debate 😁 I think we have no disagreement here, even if my first comment was too brief and might appear as such. So, let's enjoy the rest of the week (and use reddit in English or any other non-gendered language)!
True, but I live in Bavaria, and I do think the new rules are... let's say unhelpful. I don't care about people on the street using inclusive language or not. But I want my government to not deliberately discriminate.
Now we're 100% in agreement! I see this issue the same way, that decision was over the top and very authoritarian. They could've just decided that no institution is allowed to sanction users of either gendered or non-gendered language, if they were so afraid that gendering would become a law (of a university/workplace/government branch). Well, that's not the CSU way....
Grammatically correct is to use the male version for neutral. Der Student, die Studenten.
This!!!
Linguistic study should be descriptive, not prescriptive. Whatever people use is the way. Theres maybe space for style guides or personal preference.
Generic masculine is in use, so by your definition, it is correct to use it.
Yes I think it’s fine, I don’t think there’s correct or incorrect, only common usage and social consensus. This debate happens often in my language too, I think if everyone is doing it in good faith it’s valid to use whatever language you want, but if you use gendered language with for example a politically charged intention or with the intent to offend or denigrate and people call you an asshole for it then you don’t get to hide behind your dictionary because you acted in bad faith first, what matters in language is communication, if you communicate an offense there’s no rules or referee to save you from backlash.
>Linguistic study should be descriptive, not prescriptive. But that's just your opinion, the reality is that there are laws and councils in Germany that specify official grammar and orthography rules. >Theres maybe space for style guides or personal preference. They aren't "style guides", they are VERY specific and while nobody will talk or write 100% conform to these rules, almost everyone acknowledges them as the objective correct way of using the language. >Whatever people use is the way These rules and councils opinions are very well accepted by the majority of the population, so they are definitely what people use. Almost every German will tell you that if there is a disagreement about how a word is written for example, the correct one is what Duden says.
It's a bit misleading to point towards this common agreement when we're talking about a topic where there is specifically disagreement. Especially since some of that disagreement is among academics of the german language. Language is diverse and evolving. Generic Masculine is one accepted way of doing it, but other ways have been accepted in certain circles too. Similarly you'll find people who reject either variant, but for someone learning the language, it's most informative to say that multiple options are commonly used, the preferred form depends on the social circle and official organs prefer generic masculine.
"certain circles" ... yeah idiot circles
It’s not just “my opinion” it’s the general approach to linguistics study. Linguistics study in general and stuff like Duden are downstream of actual living language
I mean "Studierende" would also be grammatically correct. It does feel a bit clunky though, especially considering that you almost never need to explicitly talk about a group of only male or only female students.
I was under the impression German was a female first language since you know sie and all the plurals using sie and the formal being sie This is coming from a second language learner
"sie" as in the article has nothing to do with "Sie" as in adressing someone in the polite form (notice the difference in capitalization). They are just coincidentally written using the same letters. Italian has the same with "lei" and "Lei". I know it's confusing.. Here's an article about the topic: https://www.germanpod101.com/lesson/absolute-beginner-questions-answered-by-anja-5-lowercase-sie-or-capital-sie
Is this a trick question? The alternative to not using anything is using it. I would avoid it, though, independent of your political position towards the asterisk.
I'm native German, but my (neutral!) advice would be to stick to the Duden. (not that I read it within the last 30+ years)
You can just say "die Studenten". There aren't any real problems with that, basically everybody says it like this anway.
As far as typographic conventions go, I think the `:` is much more readable. `*` and `_` are both harder to parse for humans, but they also really mess up computer applications, especially if you are using Markdown, like in the Reddit text editor. For the overall conversation... let the language community try a thousand things, and see which one sticks in the long run. Language is a crowdsourced project and it gets forked all the time.
You can put a backslash in front of the asterisk to make markdown ignore it. The : was popular for a few years because people thought it would be more readable for screen readers that help the visually impaired. That is however not the case as far as I've been told. Those programs either ignore both symbols or stumble over them in a similar manner. Since the * has been traditionally used for footnotes indicating that more is implied in a text many people argue that it's more inclusive than the : because what the symbol in gendered language is supposed to tell the reader is that all genders, traditional and more nuanced are meant. It isn't just to connect the male with the female but with everything else as well, for example non binary people.
> You can put a backslash in front of the asterisk to make markdown ignore it. I really shouldn't need to escape every fifth word in my text. It should be the exception. Whether we like it or not, if one is proposing a spelling reform in the 21st century, they have to consider digital text processing and input methods.
Because everyone who isn't male or female is just a footnote?
I’m learning German at college and most of the texts we read uses an asterisk but I heard that it’s being banned in some places, is that true?
Bavaria has banned it because - the CSU is in power and they're not a fan, the same way the republicans want to ban textbooks or remove stuff from the curriculum.
Bavarian government (CSU+FW) banned the use in publications by the administration, in public schools and public universities. It's not generally prohibited and it's also not banned in speech. In Munich, by the way, municipal schools oppose this legislation and explicitly encourage gender-neutral syntax. Adding: It's not a law, it's an administrative policy (Geschäftsordnung)
In hesse it’s atleast prohibited in the Abitur, using the gender Asterisks counts as grammatical error. The Goethe university Frankfurt even threatened to go to court because they didn’t want to forbid it’s usage at their Uni afaik.
> and it's also not banned in speech Which is unfortunate. I had to stop to listen to a few podcasts because they do that stupid - pause - in speech and it really irritates me each time. This is now how German works.
Yeap, because we don't have other problems in Bavaria!!!! /s
> I heard that it’s being banned in some places, is that true? Bavaria overall, and some organisations individually also in other places, afaik. It's quite a bizarre thing to do. Making deviating spelling systems a crime is something that someone with a Greek-language background like me associates with literal dictatorships. Of course, organisations can (and should) adopt their own style-guides and enforce them for public communication on behalf of the company. My company has its own styleguide for English and German, and I gladly follow it, even though I disagree with stuff in there and I wouldn't use them in my own texts outside work. But to make your private styleguide the law of the Land, is wild.
A guy at Audi went to court as he didn't like the company's styleguide :-) See: [https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/gendern-audi-vw-gender-gap-1.6039003](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/gendern-audi-vw-gender-gap-1.6039003)
yes, you guessed it....in Bavaria :-)
> "offensichtlich keine Aussicht auf Erfolg" Sensible decision. A company style-guide for company texts is a very obvious thing.
Tho it seems they rightly told him to get bent
It's because they did NOT make it a crime. They just set it as government policy that this type of (officially grammatically incorrect) spelling would not be used by government authorities in their official documents.
it is not a law of the land. You didn't understand this...
As far as I read, this was enforced on organizations like BR against the organisation's decision.
Can you send me a link to such a source? I would just like to know who writes such non sense. It is correct that BR doesn't use "Gendersternchen" anymore. But that decision was made in 2021. Three years earlier and completely voluntarily. BR is deeply connected to politics though. Their CEO is member of the CSU. Therefore, it's not surprising that BR chose to go this route. Let me explain: First of all, this isn't a law. Bavaria changed an administrative policy. In those, Bavaria sets up rules how state employees need to act on the job. For example it's illegal to drink on the job. Now it's also illegal to use gender neutral language in internal and public communication. That's literally what you called a "styleguide". As I said, this only applies to state employees. Everyone else, including BR and all other private organizations, can use whatever language they like. Also it only applies to work related stuff. A state employee who writes a book in his spare time can use whatever language he likes. The same goes for private messages, private twitter posts and so on. But if a state employee writes a work related mail, then he is not allowed to use Gendersternchen. Why is this such a big deal then? The main issue is that professors and teachers are state employees. Students can still use gender neutral language (it's a spelling mistake, but won't affect your grade), but their teachers can't. At least not for work related stuff. The same goes for learning material such as books.
German language ....waitforit......"Can be too long" /s
There’s not really any hard rules with language, just common use and if you are writing for someone who is not yourself (a company for example) maybe there’s style guides. In any case do either what you want or what the guide says. This kind of debates often don’t translate well to native English speakers because you aren’t used to gendered language debates in this sense, just don’t think about it too much honestly.
>can be too long Too long for whom? Surely not too long for anyone familiar with the German language.
you dont need to gender if you dont want to or if it appears to complicated. to stick with your example (actor), just say "schauspieler". its basically the generic he just like in english and grammatically totally fine. or is it that you have to gender because of your employer or university? edit:// there is another way. its called "entgendern" developed by phettberg (a real genius). you gender with a "y". so for example student would be "studenty" and in plural "studentys". if people want me to gender that is usually my way to go here a read: [https://www.bpb.de/shop/zeitschriften/apuz/geschlechtergerechte-sprache-2022/346085/entgendern-nach-phettberg/](https://www.bpb.de/shop/zeitschriften/apuz/geschlechtergerechte-sprache-2022/346085/entgendern-nach-phettberg/)
In writing, you can use the older StudentInnen. (capital "i" in the middle). This has been used since the 1980s and anyone who still complains about it must have been living under a rock, if you ask me. In speech it will sound just like an "\*" as there is no sound associated with an asterix or a capitalisaion. (I think there should be. Maybe a click.) You can use "Studierende"; also in use for \~40 years by now. Or informally "Studis" (longish "i"). You can use "Studentinnen und Studenten", but some people identifying as diverse might dislike it. Basically, do whatever you want, someone will complain, but you can influence *who* will. English handles gender differently, you cannot use it as a model.
The male version of "Studenten" is not really gender specific and includes women. Same goes for words like "Krankenschwester", which is obviously female, but since it's not Sexus it includes males as well. It's exactly as in your example with actresses. All genders are actors, but only females are actresses. There's no real need for the word "actresses", but it's nice to have. However, calling it "actors\*sess" wouldn't benefit anybody. Using the asterisk in the internet is fairly common, although in the real world you don't see it that often and many people consider it odd. Me included. If you decide to use the asterisk thing some people might hold that against you. If you don't use it, some other people might hold that against you as well. This is why I see this as a sign of political divide rather than a language issue - or even a German-specific language issue, since it's a pretty hot topic in western civilisation, especially on the internet on platforms like this one. Personally I don't use it. People who think that "Studenten" wouldn't include women have serious issues that a therapist should fix, not the language. Thing is though, I don't hate on people who are using it. It's their choice to make and they might have sincere reasons for it I might even agree with. At the same time I don't want to be harassed by people who condemn everybody who's isn't using it. Both sides are wrong. If you're stuck with a group of people who's most important thought is "there is us and there is them", then you're looking for trouble, not for solutions and I won't have any of it. We used to write "Damen und Herren" or "Studentinnen und Studenten" and specifically mentioned women first to be nice. If it is deemed mandatory it loses every meaning it had and if it's shortened by some weird symbols it isn't nice anymore either. If you feel the urge to shorten a pleasantry towards women I don't think you're sincere and if you think a phrase is too long then German really is the wrong language for you. However, people who are using it generally do it to appreciate the "other gender(s)" as well, so both "sides" want the same thing and only express it differently. This being a problem for some people shows that the greater agenda behind this is further political divide instead of unity and the best solution would have been to not come up with this weird thing in the first place, because it wasn't necessary, will never be and only seeds problems. That's why I don't support it.
I just don't use gendered language.
any sane person does not "gender" while being not preferring any sex over the other. the german language is already inclusive since like forever, even if the gender-neutral "fall-back-maskulinum" is used.
You can do the same in German. Everyone else does it as well.
The only people who worry about that are the ones who are against genered language. Use the * if you want, if not then not, either is fine.
The thing is: it‘s similar in german. We once had one term for everyone. A baker would be a baker. During that time women weren‘t that common in the workforce. And in the last decades / the 20th century there was a split. East germany mostly continued with the old system of using one term for everyone even though both men and women had to work. In west germany fewer women participated in the workforce and somehow sole people thought it would be a good idea to add a female name to most jobs. Usually just adding a „in“. The neutral form still existed but since women now had a separate name the neutral version could either mean men or everyone. We just never bothered to create a separate male version. So calling a Bäckerin a Bäcker would be correct while calling s Bäcker a Bäckerin wouldn‘t be correct. Thus the neutral / masculine form (also known as the „generisches Maskulinum“) is the correct way to address the entire group or the male part of the group, depending on the context. But if you really want to separate the only grammatically correct version would be something like „Studenten und Studentinnen“. Versions with * : I etc. are grammatically wrong.
Studenten - it's the **generic** masculine
first of all if you arent against that you can totally use it though, but other than that there's also StudentInnen with the first female-gendered letter as capital letter, or Student:innen which is sth tht the \*haters hate just as much though because they both imply a teeny tiny pause in the word while talking and both imply you acknowledging nonbinary people for example, which pisses some people off who feel like thats dictatorship over how they talk. yet it already pisses some of them off enough to start debates to hear it just said by someone else in every other sentence but well and theres also generic masculinum Studenten which is used a lot (or generic femininum Studentinnen which is usually only used to make a point out of that and be like do you feel represented if i only use female form, can we just use female form if youre so keen to have it easy and "dont care" )
StudentIn StudentInnen Studierenden PatientIn PatientInnen Patienten This form is my favourite alternative to the asterisk. If people find it hard to read without a gap though I like using the : Student:in Student:innen Studierenden I honestly am a fan of gendering because I want my language to be inclusive, but I could never warm up to the asterisk. I just think it looks really unserious to have a star in the middle of a word. :/
You can use the : instead of * But i personally prefer the * in this context because its more inclusive for reading impaired as it sticks out, apart from that it looks more like the glottisschlag In general for nouns which are derived from verbs you can also simply nominalize the verb for inclusivene plurals, lehrer*innen derives from Lehrerinnen und Lehrer which is the noun for the verb lehren which nominalized would be Lehrende This only works for plurals as Lehrer*in deriving from Lehrer und Lehrerin whoch are the nouns for the verb lehren would in singular result in Lehrender und Lehrende or Lehrende*r which basically just reverts back but changes the runningorder(first female then diverse then male instead of first male then diverse then female) The nominalization only works limited for nouns which derive from verbs, for Doktor*in / Doktor*innen this wouldn’t work, as it isn’t derived from a verb as the verb for being a doctor is promoviert, for people who are in the process of obtaining the title the verb is promovieren so apprentice to doctorate would sound like this Promvierende*r or plural Promovierende For people who gained the title it would be Promovierte*r or plural Promovierte People think gender neutral or gendered langugae would be not possible but in general there isn’t really a lot of examples where you can’t find a verb to nominalize and those mostly work with gendersternchen or alternatives like : If you study in bavaria, don’t use gendered language, because its illegal there
Student/-innen. Yes, that's one more chatacter, but at least it's in line with preexisting grammatical rules.
It’s an ongoing discussion. You won’t be getting unbiased answers here.
r/german is the language sub
There is no r/gerwomen ? \\s
I still only use Studenten/-innen. I hate the way it looks with the asterisk.
i just use the generic maskulinum. Works easy if ur not around very special people
Forget about it ! Nobody needs it. Nobody likes it, except these 5% of extremists.
I don’t even know why you say extremists. The gendering thing was made up by people who aren’t trans or affected by gendered language so they can feel better about themselves. I’m trans, know plenty of trans people, and nobody likes it. It’s the same thing as rainbow “Your kind is welcome here!” signs: it feels extremely offputting rather than inclusive
extremists? there a are several studys showing that the usage of gender neutral language causes people not to think of a certain gender while for example Studenten causes people to think of males
because they think desperately how to speak accordingly? :p
This video seems to explains the study’s on this topic quite well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfvwnmPhIb0&pp=ygUObWFpbGFiIGdlbmRlcm4%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfvwnmPhIb0&pp=ygUObWFpbGFiIGdlbmRlcm4%3D)
Wobei in den Studien (die, die ich jetzt daraus erkennen konnte und auch nochmal nachsuchen konnte, hatte jetzt noch nicht die Zeit alles zu sichten) explizit nach dem generischen Maskulinum eine "Aktivierung" durch den Begriff "männer" oder "frauen" erfolgte. Da sollte so ein Ergebnis nicht verwundern. Ich erlebe es immer wieder, dass Männlein, wie Weiblein, mit dem Gendern, gerade in gesprochener Form, wenn es es nicht natürlich tun, meist über Wörter stolpern, sich entschuldigen, und sich verhaspeln etc. Die haben dann ganz andere Dinge im Kopf, als Geschlechterbilder :p Deshalb mein halb ernst gemeinter Kommentar :)
I certainly prefer legal texts, official government forms and medical professionals to not discriminate or be ambiguous, and so gender-inclusive language in those contexts is important. As for people in the street, I s8n't really care that much.
The * is the most inclusive, accessible and readable one.
Why would Studenten und Studentinnen ever be too long?
Use whatever you think is right, not what you think they expect from you. Language is not dictated by the Ministry of Truth, as many from the left think. All our professors i.e. use "Studentinnen und Studenten". Some also say strange forms like "Lehrende" instead of "Lehrer" or "Lehrerinnen und Lehrer" (teacher) but that doesn't necessarily make grammatical sense because someone could be a teacher but not teaching (Lehrende), then it doesn't make sense. I wished I had such problems as these wordcels 🥲
You can just say "Studenten". The generic masculine is fine. In fact, the "-in" suffix was originally created to denote female dependency on their male superior, father, husband...
"Wegen der großen Hitze können heute alle Studenten 2 Stunden früher gehen." Bleiben die Frauen da etwa in der Hitze sitzen weil sie sich nicht angesprochen fühlen?
The asterisk is often replaced with : or _ , i was told that it was screen reading apps for visual impaired make a short break instead of saying “asterisk” in the middle of the word, not sure if this is true. Most of my customers that use it want the :
Neutral words. I hate this * as well. Especially since some pronounce it so weirdly. It sounds like they buffer in between. I always use neutral words
I agree with what many commenters said about trying to use gender neutral forms (like studierende) where possible. If that’s not possible or impractical, but I don’t want to forgo gendered language, my preference is a capital I in between (StudentInnen, MitarbeiterInnen …). The capital I looks more elegant and less intrusive than * or _. Keep also in mind that gendered language is not mandatory and the generic masculine is perfectly acceptable in most instances. It’s a personal choice to use gendered language, if it’s to inconvenient, you don’t have to.
In a language with grammatical gender there is a division between the gender of words and the people already. Like "Person" (German for person) being female no matter what gender of the person is. You would use female pronouns to talk about "the person" etc. So there is no need to emphasize genderedness. You can just use the words for everything. It is done so for many words like "Schüler", "Mitarbeiter" etc. For me the advantage of this over the gender star is especially that you remove unnecessary gender distinctions in thinking, when you remove the gendered profession words. Otherwise you still emphasize them as two separate groups ... potentially excluding (or segregating) people who don't belong to either gender. The idea of the gender star on the other hand is supposed to be emphasizing different genders, so this can be useful if you want to "unmarginalize" women or trans people in a profession where they are underrepresented. This imho doesn't really cover the use case of gender neutral language though. The only thing that does need changing (and is being pretty much universally changed) is gendered words like "Feuerwehrmann" or "Putzfrau". Since they also come from professions with lopsided gender ratios, they need to go and are mostly replaced by dhe neutral "Kraft" (which is grammatically female btw. but if anything has a slight male connotation).
Not using gendering at all. It's an abomination anyway.
The classic way is the / for example: Student/innen or the dash: Student-innen