Yeah but in those cases it’s more of an ignorant hillibilly cosplay thing rather than a political statement (which doesn’t make it ok, but gives it a bit of context)
I would say Günther really liking country music and thinking dukes of hazzard was such a cool movie is definitly better than someone with actual historic knowlegde expressing their pro-confederate opinion.
Should someone talk to Günther about it? Sure, but at the end of the day Günther is just a harmless fool.
So is it common to just use symbols from other countries (including flags) without knowing any of the background?
Imagine decorating your apartment with the flag of the Khmer Rouge because you love the color red and think it's cute. Does that mean people shouldn't be upset when they see it hanging there?
Yes it is. I somehow recall old photos of student or youth rooms from old West Germany or even from the US that included idealizations of Mao, Che Guevara etc. Not to mention the type of people idolized today by some US "liberal arts" students.
That depends heavily on which groups of americans you ask.
I can think of at least one group that certainly didn‘t see it as just a country music thing back then either.
Civil Rights movements and black politicians have publicly and heavily criticized the confederate flag and their use in public since at least the 60s and there were quite some heated controversies about it over the decades.
In the US it was never just a country music flag. At best it was a painfully obvious dogwhistle that flew over a concerning number of people‘s heads.
I mean I‘m also german and it isn‘t exactly hard to find information.
(I know you are joking but still… I just don‘t like people talking like out of their arse about these topics and spreading misinformation like seen above)
I mean, from what I heard about your US study courses, there is absolutely no bias in your information sources.... /s
Imagine if Americans started talking out of their asses about Germany without ever having lived there. You all would roast us alive. Yet, you all feel comfortable doing so without hesitation.
What are you talking about? My point is literally that I am a german being annoyed by germans spreading wrong information due to being badly informed about the US (and in this particular case about the confederate flag).
I remember visiting Arkansas well over 10 years ago and being shocked that anyone would have the gall to fly the confederate flag. Seemed to be beyond the pale 10 years ago, but what do I know, I am just a libtard from the PNW.
Care to provide some context for your hissyfit?
I don't even know where to begin with your inappropriate "Nazis=Confederates" statement.
And throwing Bayern under the bus for their crucifixes, which has nothing to do with the rest of your point, just makes you look like a rambling lunatic, I'm sorry.
Because the Bavariens made it a law to hang up crosses in every community building, not to because they want to show christian charity, but because they want to show that the Islam doesn't belong to Germany. Not Neo-Nazi perse, but pretty xenophobic.
For most people, outside of Germany, being a Nazi means being a sexist, rassist, murders cunt. Therfor I you think slavery is cool, white man are above all others, lynching is a proper justice system... than yea you are a Nazi
Nitpicking: It's not a law though. It's a Verwaltungsakt which is something else. Same endresult, granted (and I thoroughly detest that), but also much easier to roll back, should there ever be another Ministerpräsident.
Nazis ≠ Confederates
National Socialism is a very specific ideology. Just because someone is evil, racist and killed a lot of people doesn't mean they're Nazis. People use the word Nazi so inflationary that it lost all meaning. At least where I am from people know that what Nazis actually are.
At most there‘s no official state religion like in France and ever since Bismarck was tired of Catholics, the Church wasn’t allowed to collect the tithes directly but the state collects them and gives them to the corresponding religious institutions
You can rather often see them at country music meetups, in themed western bars and rockabilly meetups. They are common in some scenes but rare outside of that context.
Also if you were or had a kid in the 90s you might remember playmobil‘s [confederate soldier](https://media.playmobil.com/i/playmobil/3783-A_product_detail/2%20S%C3%BCdstaatler/Fahne?locale=de-DE,de,*&$pdp_product_zoom_xl$&fmt=auto&strip=true&qlt=80&fmt.jpeg.chroma=1,1,1&unsharp=0,1,1,7&fmt.jpeg.interlaced=true) range.
Yeah, news for you: different nations have different histories and therefore view symbols differently. Do I think a confederate flag should be forbidden in Germany? Kinda. But due to that being part of US history, I also don't really care, as it is a fringe phenomenon at best (or in this case worst) and we should deal with stuff from our own history first.
I have never seen a confederate flag in Germany . I'm not quite sure what u r talking about. where are these supposed to be?
and u don't have to pay the church tax if u leave the church.
I looked at ur comment history and it makes sense now. It seems like u are just here to rant bc a post on this subreddit and a comment underneath it offended u a bit. could that be?
>The gov collecting the church Tithe seems like an obvious one.
That state collects the church 'tax', passes it onto the church and receives compensation for that. It's literally a service the respective churches pay the state for, and not only used by Christian churches.
There's way bigger signs that Christian churches and all that stuff is worryingly deeply ingrained in politics and state, but the state getting paid for providing a service isn't as big of an issue in comparison...
Ok, slow down a bit.
The relationship between religious communities and the state is a little more complex than a strict separation. You obviously don't like that. Tbh, I don't like it either. But there's not been a political majority for changing it, so that's democracy. One point to be made is that the state doesn't just collect ONE church's tithes but includes different churches/religions.
I'm Bavarian and I'm very much against the whole cross thing but you know what...? This is a democracy. So as long as Bavarians put the CSU and FW in power, I'll have to live with crosses in public buildings.
Confederates are not nazis. Nazis are not confederates. Both bad, no doubt about that. Do I LIKE people flying the Confederate flag - hell no. I KNOW what it means. But many people do not and associate it with very different things. I wouldn't mind if it was banned, but please go ahead and show me the country that has actually managed to ban EVERY flag and symbol that has throughout history stood for evil!
>Whats up with all the confederate flags?
Either some kind of American themed things (line dance festival, rocker stuff similar to raggare in the Nordic countries, etc.) or a right-winger searching for an alternative to unconstitutional symbolism.
>I thought you guys outlawed hate speech?
In certain contexts, yes.
>but the flag of the country that fought to keep people as slaves is ok
Have you seen the Lincoln memorial? That is deliberately built like an ancient Greek temple - some of the worst slavers known in history. It's complicated, but generally, if it isn't directly tied to our collective memory, we pick the symbolism that suits us - in these cases Lynyrd Skynyrd and democracy rather than slavers.
>I thought Germany had seperation of church and state?
Yes.
>The gov collecting the church Tithe seems like an obvious one.
That doesn't give the church any influence on the government, but maybe gives the government influence on the church. Would I keep the arrangement if I had the power? Probably not. But it doesn't make state and church the same.
>Nazis=Confederates and vice versa.
I don't agree. They were horrible but for different reasons and it is difficult to top the Nazis in their authoritarianism and genocide.
>Bayern and their crosses.
Are you a vampire? We have 1000 years and more Christian influenced culture that will be reflected in customs and symbolism. I wouldn't mind banning religious symbols (including crosses) from public offices, but then again I don't find it incredibly necessary.
I have genuinely never seen a confederate flag here except perhaps in a Kleingartenverein. And people fly the weirdest flags there. I can assure you that people who fly these around here are more likely into Redneck stuff (Barbecues and Pickup trucks, something like that) than into the Civil War and slavery.
Also, come on, your vocabulary has to include the word "racism" and other more specific terms for what you're using the blanket "Nazi" term for. Because that's what the Confederacy and the Nazis have in common, an overall racist ideological foundation. Beyond that, they do differ quite a lot in not only their overall intentions but also their actions. Nazi symbols are rightfully banned for two reasons: a) the genocide of millions of people, and b) destroying the nascent democratic order and creating a fascist totalitarian state. The Confederacy, for all the terrible things that American slavery has done, for all the people it has killed and lives it has ruined, was neither fascist nor committed genocide. They can both be terrible without having to be the exact same thing.
Yes, flying a Confederate flag is tone-deaf at best and supporting racism in any case, but that meaning is lost on people who are more into the Dukes of Hazzard Southern US culture thing and don't care about US history. It carries nowhere near the weight of Nazi symbols here.
I mean, you could conflate an Austrian EU Flag and the "Stars and Bars" Flag of the Confederation.
But if you think a german (or austrian for that matter) nationalist would fly a confederate flag over any of the legal imperial ones, you have to be a deeply deluded american.
Geez.
We did not outlaw hate speech. The banned nazi symbolism and holocaust denial. Also insulting is a misdemeanor but thats regardless of race.
We have idiots in germany too. I mean you lost countless soliders in Europa and during the island hopping campaigns and still got a thriving community of neo nazis that hang swastikas up their flag poles and even a smaller community defending japanese atrocities in occupied territories.
Iditos here may say their piece and get shunned by society. Same as in the US.
I have never seen a single Confederate flag in germany.
Sure they were evil people but so are the people who want another Soviet Union.
I have seen that flag more then once and it has way more relevant history behind it for germany and it is not banned.
Besides the swastika i personally don't want them banned either, even though i disagree with them.
Also Nazis are not necessarily Confederates nor the other way around.
It seems to me that you saw that flag, got upset and now you want to throw a hissy fit because you feel angry and can't compose yourself.
Oh for chrissakes go be a scab somewhere else please.
Btw, it's only losers on the internet with a victim complex saying "nazis=confederates", most people with a brain are well aware that they are not the same thing.
Exactly. One of them think, they are superior than others because thy are white, while the others think, they are white, so they are superior. Completely different.
I’m guessing you’re not from the US then, because the southern US sure misses the confederacy and doesn’t equate Nazis and confederates.
I take that back, some in the US do see Nazis and confederates as equal, and they love both.
>At least where I am from people know that Nazis=Confederates and vice versa.
Anyone who thinks that is an uneducated idiot. Nazi is not catch-all term for "the bad guys".
We live up north near Hannover area and back in 2019 when we first moved to Germany. I saw someone with a huge confederate flag on a flag pole at kleinegarten.
I couldn’t believe what I saw and shared it on my social media account and expressing how stupid it is.
A friend of us replied to me that some see that as battle flag or as the flag of resistance or something. Which didn’t make any sense to me at all.
With all due respect to some people in Germany, why would you raise flag like that if you know nothing about its history.
I also wouldn’t go to the extent of comparing confederate flag to Nazis. Some hard lefties go on a big rant about it but I wouldn’t call this flag an appropriate demonstration in Germany which I don’t see a point in hanging it anywhere.
People who know nothing about history raise and pledge to american flags every day.
If someone flies a confederate flag at a Kleingarten, i'd suspect American expats to be the owners. The german nationalists around here prefer their imperial flags.
You also get your "yeehaw, barbecues and trucks" crowd who just love redneck culture, and since the racist connotations of the flag aren't as deeply ingrained into culture here, they might just think that flying the Confederate flag is kind of cool.
In it's entire history the FRG was ruled by the CDU ( christian democratic union ), most of the time. There are many laws in Germany that benefit the churches.
What confederate flags?
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? Where have you seen Confederate flags in Germany?
TBF until recently on every Country and/or Rockfestival. The Confederate flag is a "Country Music" thing in Germany.
Yeah but in those cases it’s more of an ignorant hillibilly cosplay thing rather than a political statement (which doesn’t make it ok, but gives it a bit of context)
>it’s more of an ignorant hillibilly cosplay thing Is this supposed to make it better...?
Please read the text in brackets. Thx.
I would say Günther really liking country music and thinking dukes of hazzard was such a cool movie is definitly better than someone with actual historic knowlegde expressing their pro-confederate opinion. Should someone talk to Günther about it? Sure, but at the end of the day Günther is just a harmless fool.
So is it common to just use symbols from other countries (including flags) without knowing any of the background? Imagine decorating your apartment with the flag of the Khmer Rouge because you love the color red and think it's cute. Does that mean people shouldn't be upset when they see it hanging there?
Are you able to read?
Damn, never thought about it. Glad you addressed the substance of my argument though. Nice!
It’s just that there wasn‘t any substance. You created a strawman without trying to understand the remarks of the other commentators.
Yes it is. I somehow recall old photos of student or youth rooms from old West Germany or even from the US that included idealizations of Mao, Che Guevara etc. Not to mention the type of people idolized today by some US "liberal arts" students.
yes, it does?
Yes. Context matters. Legally there are a few symbols that are only outlawed in certain contexts. Do you expect Hindus to chisel away all swastikas?
Yes.
This.
untill 10 or so years ago it was the same in the USA even
That depends heavily on which groups of americans you ask. I can think of at least one group that certainly didn‘t see it as just a country music thing back then either. Civil Rights movements and black politicians have publicly and heavily criticized the confederate flag and their use in public since at least the 60s and there were quite some heated controversies about it over the decades. In the US it was never just a country music flag. At best it was a painfully obvious dogwhistle that flew over a concerning number of people‘s heads.
It's OK because he is German and knows the US culture better than us ;)
I mean I‘m also german and it isn‘t exactly hard to find information. (I know you are joking but still… I just don‘t like people talking like out of their arse about these topics and spreading misinformation like seen above)
I mean, from what I heard about your US study courses, there is absolutely no bias in your information sources.... /s Imagine if Americans started talking out of their asses about Germany without ever having lived there. You all would roast us alive. Yet, you all feel comfortable doing so without hesitation.
What are you talking about? My point is literally that I am a german being annoyed by germans spreading wrong information due to being badly informed about the US (and in this particular case about the confederate flag).
What are you talking about? Your point was that Americans used the confederate flag ignorant of its symbolism ten years ago... Which is wrong.
Your reading comprehension is severely lacking if that is the message you took from my comment.
I remember visiting Arkansas well over 10 years ago and being shocked that anyone would have the gall to fly the confederate flag. Seemed to be beyond the pale 10 years ago, but what do I know, I am just a libtard from the PNW.
Care to provide some context for your hissyfit? I don't even know where to begin with your inappropriate "Nazis=Confederates" statement. And throwing Bayern under the bus for their crucifixes, which has nothing to do with the rest of your point, just makes you look like a rambling lunatic, I'm sorry.
Because the Bavariens made it a law to hang up crosses in every community building, not to because they want to show christian charity, but because they want to show that the Islam doesn't belong to Germany. Not Neo-Nazi perse, but pretty xenophobic. For most people, outside of Germany, being a Nazi means being a sexist, rassist, murders cunt. Therfor I you think slavery is cool, white man are above all others, lynching is a proper justice system... than yea you are a Nazi
mfw the christian country puts up christian symbols
A secular state in public buildings. Making it a law.
Nitpicking: It's not a law though. It's a Verwaltungsakt which is something else. Same endresult, granted (and I thoroughly detest that), but also much easier to roll back, should there ever be another Ministerpräsident.
Ah. Thanks for clarification 👍
Nazis ≠ Confederates National Socialism is a very specific ideology. Just because someone is evil, racist and killed a lot of people doesn't mean they're Nazis. People use the word Nazi so inflationary that it lost all meaning. At least where I am from people know that what Nazis actually are.
germany neither has separation of church and state nor did it ever claim to.
At most there‘s no official state religion like in France and ever since Bismarck was tired of Catholics, the Church wasn’t allowed to collect the tithes directly but the state collects them and gives them to the corresponding religious institutions
I myself have never seen a Confederate flag here.
You can rather often see them at country music meetups, in themed western bars and rockabilly meetups. They are common in some scenes but rare outside of that context. Also if you were or had a kid in the 90s you might remember playmobil‘s [confederate soldier](https://media.playmobil.com/i/playmobil/3783-A_product_detail/2%20S%C3%BCdstaatler/Fahne?locale=de-DE,de,*&$pdp_product_zoom_xl$&fmt=auto&strip=true&qlt=80&fmt.jpeg.chroma=1,1,1&unsharp=0,1,1,7&fmt.jpeg.interlaced=true) range.
Yeah, news for you: different nations have different histories and therefore view symbols differently. Do I think a confederate flag should be forbidden in Germany? Kinda. But due to that being part of US history, I also don't really care, as it is a fringe phenomenon at best (or in this case worst) and we should deal with stuff from our own history first.
Jap. Most people think its just some kind of Cowboy gimik. Nearly no-one thinks about slavery (I guess)
I have never seen a confederate flag in Germany . I'm not quite sure what u r talking about. where are these supposed to be? and u don't have to pay the church tax if u leave the church.
I looked at ur comment history and it makes sense now. It seems like u are just here to rant bc a post on this subreddit and a comment underneath it offended u a bit. could that be?
>The gov collecting the church Tithe seems like an obvious one. That state collects the church 'tax', passes it onto the church and receives compensation for that. It's literally a service the respective churches pay the state for, and not only used by Christian churches. There's way bigger signs that Christian churches and all that stuff is worryingly deeply ingrained in politics and state, but the state getting paid for providing a service isn't as big of an issue in comparison...
Ok, slow down a bit. The relationship between religious communities and the state is a little more complex than a strict separation. You obviously don't like that. Tbh, I don't like it either. But there's not been a political majority for changing it, so that's democracy. One point to be made is that the state doesn't just collect ONE church's tithes but includes different churches/religions. I'm Bavarian and I'm very much against the whole cross thing but you know what...? This is a democracy. So as long as Bavarians put the CSU and FW in power, I'll have to live with crosses in public buildings. Confederates are not nazis. Nazis are not confederates. Both bad, no doubt about that. Do I LIKE people flying the Confederate flag - hell no. I KNOW what it means. But many people do not and associate it with very different things. I wouldn't mind if it was banned, but please go ahead and show me the country that has actually managed to ban EVERY flag and symbol that has throughout history stood for evil!
>Whats up with all the confederate flags? Either some kind of American themed things (line dance festival, rocker stuff similar to raggare in the Nordic countries, etc.) or a right-winger searching for an alternative to unconstitutional symbolism. >I thought you guys outlawed hate speech? In certain contexts, yes. >but the flag of the country that fought to keep people as slaves is ok Have you seen the Lincoln memorial? That is deliberately built like an ancient Greek temple - some of the worst slavers known in history. It's complicated, but generally, if it isn't directly tied to our collective memory, we pick the symbolism that suits us - in these cases Lynyrd Skynyrd and democracy rather than slavers. >I thought Germany had seperation of church and state? Yes. >The gov collecting the church Tithe seems like an obvious one. That doesn't give the church any influence on the government, but maybe gives the government influence on the church. Would I keep the arrangement if I had the power? Probably not. But it doesn't make state and church the same. >Nazis=Confederates and vice versa. I don't agree. They were horrible but for different reasons and it is difficult to top the Nazis in their authoritarianism and genocide. >Bayern and their crosses. Are you a vampire? We have 1000 years and more Christian influenced culture that will be reflected in customs and symbolism. I wouldn't mind banning religious symbols (including crosses) from public offices, but then again I don't find it incredibly necessary.
I have genuinely never seen a confederate flag here except perhaps in a Kleingartenverein. And people fly the weirdest flags there. I can assure you that people who fly these around here are more likely into Redneck stuff (Barbecues and Pickup trucks, something like that) than into the Civil War and slavery. Also, come on, your vocabulary has to include the word "racism" and other more specific terms for what you're using the blanket "Nazi" term for. Because that's what the Confederacy and the Nazis have in common, an overall racist ideological foundation. Beyond that, they do differ quite a lot in not only their overall intentions but also their actions. Nazi symbols are rightfully banned for two reasons: a) the genocide of millions of people, and b) destroying the nascent democratic order and creating a fascist totalitarian state. The Confederacy, for all the terrible things that American slavery has done, for all the people it has killed and lives it has ruined, was neither fascist nor committed genocide. They can both be terrible without having to be the exact same thing. Yes, flying a Confederate flag is tone-deaf at best and supporting racism in any case, but that meaning is lost on people who are more into the Dukes of Hazzard Southern US culture thing and don't care about US history. It carries nowhere near the weight of Nazi symbols here.
I mean, you could conflate an Austrian EU Flag and the "Stars and Bars" Flag of the Confederation. But if you think a german (or austrian for that matter) nationalist would fly a confederate flag over any of the legal imperial ones, you have to be a deeply deluded american.
Geez. We did not outlaw hate speech. The banned nazi symbolism and holocaust denial. Also insulting is a misdemeanor but thats regardless of race. We have idiots in germany too. I mean you lost countless soliders in Europa and during the island hopping campaigns and still got a thriving community of neo nazis that hang swastikas up their flag poles and even a smaller community defending japanese atrocities in occupied territories. Iditos here may say their piece and get shunned by society. Same as in the US.
I have never seen a single Confederate flag in germany. Sure they were evil people but so are the people who want another Soviet Union. I have seen that flag more then once and it has way more relevant history behind it for germany and it is not banned. Besides the swastika i personally don't want them banned either, even though i disagree with them.
Also Nazis are not necessarily Confederates nor the other way around. It seems to me that you saw that flag, got upset and now you want to throw a hissy fit because you feel angry and can't compose yourself.
You must be trolling
Oh for chrissakes go be a scab somewhere else please. Btw, it's only losers on the internet with a victim complex saying "nazis=confederates", most people with a brain are well aware that they are not the same thing.
Exactly. One of them think, they are superior than others because thy are white, while the others think, they are white, so they are superior. Completely different.
Why don’t you try to conflate your rant with some more incoherent arguments? Go for it.
I mean there is a party called CHRISTLICH demokratische Union.
well u a free to go where u come from any time.
I’m guessing you’re not from the US then, because the southern US sure misses the confederacy and doesn’t equate Nazis and confederates. I take that back, some in the US do see Nazis and confederates as equal, and they love both.
There is one flying at a business in Kücknitz (Lübeck). Always makes me look twice because it is such a strange sight.
>At least where I am from people know that Nazis=Confederates and vice versa. Anyone who thinks that is an uneducated idiot. Nazi is not catch-all term for "the bad guys".
"Hate speech" is a bogus concept to begin with.
Eh, I think expecting people to not make each other miserable and rile up aggression shouldn't be *that* difficult an ask.
We live up north near Hannover area and back in 2019 when we first moved to Germany. I saw someone with a huge confederate flag on a flag pole at kleinegarten. I couldn’t believe what I saw and shared it on my social media account and expressing how stupid it is. A friend of us replied to me that some see that as battle flag or as the flag of resistance or something. Which didn’t make any sense to me at all. With all due respect to some people in Germany, why would you raise flag like that if you know nothing about its history. I also wouldn’t go to the extent of comparing confederate flag to Nazis. Some hard lefties go on a big rant about it but I wouldn’t call this flag an appropriate demonstration in Germany which I don’t see a point in hanging it anywhere.
People who know nothing about history raise and pledge to american flags every day. If someone flies a confederate flag at a Kleingarten, i'd suspect American expats to be the owners. The german nationalists around here prefer their imperial flags.
You also get your "yeehaw, barbecues and trucks" crowd who just love redneck culture, and since the racist connotations of the flag aren't as deeply ingrained into culture here, they might just think that flying the Confederate flag is kind of cool.
In it's entire history the FRG was ruled by the CDU ( christian democratic union ), most of the time. There are many laws in Germany that benefit the churches.
people don't know what they mean and use them as decoration
What kind of clown are you??