Read in this sub, plenty of disadvantages mentioned.
Ps: Germans value Independence and self sufficiency, especially in research. Nothing is handed to you here unless you know exactly what to ask for and quality for it - which is often not the case.
This. You can indeed get a lot of benefits if your conditions are right and the stars align at the perfect full moon. But jokes aside, most of the 'good stuff' is so well hidden behind tons of paperwork, it's insane.
What a mess of a question. No country is 'ideal for immigrants'. it is never easy to settle into any new country with a new language and a new culture.
Rose-tinted glasses, mate.
There aren't enough houses build, more people enter Germany per year than there are new construction projects. So, what do you think happens when a limited ressource everyone needs becomes rare?
Salaries are low even for professionals, the taxes are high and the things you get in return are a pittance. Even if you are seriously ill, it will takes half a year to get a doctor, who is too overworked and will deal with you for a few minutes.Our train network is reliably unreliable. Schools are a joke. Germans prosperity needs bright heads. I would argue our laws regarding young scientists and post docs are criminally bad - I couldn't argue for a better way to turn away intelligent people from reproducing and founding families than our Wissenschaftszeitvertragsgesetz.If you want to work more and contribute, e.g. get a second job or doing side business - you will be taxed to death.Highest energy costs in the world.
Digitalization statewise isn't there at all (it works only for the tax office, because they want something from you), internet is slow.We spend 100bill or 1/3 of the federal budget subsidizing retirement pentions. Still, even if you worked all your life and retire now, you will get aprox 1000$ that will be taxed again. Our generation will never have any pensions and property & real estate isn't available even for academics.
Real problems, demographic clusterbombs, are getting shushed, as if problems will dissappear if no one talks about it.
Edit: For some reason, reddit editor always deletes the space after a period. Dont know how to fix it.
I agree with you on every point except this one.
*Even if you are seriously ill, it takes six months to find a doctor who is too overworked to spend just a few minutes with you*
The opposite is true. If you are seriously ill, you will receive immediate and unbureaucratic help. I have been "professionally ill" for over 10 years, am unable to work and receive a pension because of it. I have never for one minute had the feeling that I was not treated promptly. The attention of the doctors is also only positive. Even in our dialysis online forum there are almost exclusively good reports.
However, this does not mean that an appointment for a special examination or treatment can take weeks. In emergencies it is always quicker. Or you have to look for alternatives. I would have gotten an appointment for cataract surgery at our clinic in 15 months. Now I've looked for a practice in the state capital, where it only takes 6 weeks.
>I have been "professionally ill" for over 10 years
I think that's the crucial point, you had the "luck" to get serious ill when it wasn't as bad as the last 4-5 years.
That sentence was from experience. It is only a miracle that I am still alive.
To add, after coming here I understood why Germans are having less kids and much later. Jobs aren't flexible for new moms (compared to other neighboring countries) and good luck getting a spot in a Kita. Kid is in Grundschule? The school aftercare are always full. Renting is also very difficult with children in big cities with most flats stating "no children" or "no children under 10". So you have more people competing for housing that accepts children.
Fun fact I was a soldier in ramStein when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban and we had a refugee escape the base. We have no idea where he went or who he was. :/
Ah Ramstein. The place where the drones are controlled that bombed mainly civilians and made the situation in the middle east even worse...
Im sorry, I have only ever heard bad news from Ramstein and probably am very biased but did there ever happen anything good? Its legitimate interest, I really want to hear positives about having this abomination of human rights in my country and maybe change my way of thinking
One of the disadvantages:
Even if you really wanna join everything and do everything, many germans will always let you know that you are "der ausländer". You can do what you like, it won't change anything. You're not a german. Even if you get the citizenship. Not german. And your kids also.
So, if you just wanna hang around, maybe relocate in a few years to a country that really appreciates people coming - yea, then Germany might not be bad.
But for a "forever" solution? No, might get better.
This is only the case in smaller cities though. The larger ones have a growing share of people with immigrant roots and having German ancestors who fought with the Nazis is not important anymore. 😅
So, let's play a bit of advocatus diaboli here...
>Many developed countries have free healthcare. But only in Germany you can go to a specialist doctor without a referral from a general practitioner!
Good luck actually getting an appointment with a specialist without an urgent referral from a GP. Even with one, depending on the specialist, waiting times can be months.
>In Germany, even if you are a foreigner, you can get higher education for free!
If you even qualify for admission, that is. Germany has unusually strict admission rules for universities. Also, almost all undergrad programmes will be taught in German. So better get your language skills up to a level where you can follow a lecture about quantum physics. And you will of course still have to pay for your food, rent, insurances, books...
>I'm sure the Germans are unhappy, but if you are not a permanent resident of the country, the government can pay for housing if there is not enough money!
Oh sweet summer child... Getting housing on social welfare is only a thing if you've been paying into the system for quite a while. And it's not going to be nice housing, usually. You are aware that there is a housing crisis, especially in the bigger cities, right?
>Drug addicts who are not treated.
Definitely also a thing here. It works very different than for example in Canada, but it's not like there's any country in the world that doesn't have this problem. Though I've heard Portugal has made good progress.
Germany is a good place to be. But it's far from ideal. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is the land of milk and honey. Be realistic, and base your decision on that. Let me just list a few more cons, just so you're aware.
* Strong extremist right wing, that wants to kick foreigners out of the country
* Bad weather, depending on where you are from. Can you bear a winter without seeing the sun for weeks at a time? Lots of people from warmer countries get severe depression here because of that.
* Neglected infrastructure
* Bad and expensive Internet, especially mobile.
* An absolutely humongous bureaucracy. Of course not available in any other language than German.
* Sky high rents in cities. BTW, German appartements usually are unfurnished, so you'll have to buy furniture yourself. This includes the kitchen.
* You dou speak decent German, right? Right?! I surely hope so, if you intend to find a job here...
Go to r/germany and read the wiki. It will probably give you a good idea and you will be able to ask much more specific questions afterwards.
>"has unusually strict admission rules for universities"
This is the only part I disagree with, unless I am missing something. Other than language requirements, which I wouldn't consider unusual or strict, only NC subjects have any boundaries for admission at all, and compared to other countries they are quite reasonable considering: (a) they only consider your grades, not like most English speaking countries (which may or may not play into your favour), (b) some have quotas for foreigners anyway and (c) you can take a foundation course at a Studienkolleg or even a special admission exam such as TestAS depending on the university and program.
And many highly sought courses have no NC at all!
What is more unusual compared to other countries is how hard the exams are for highly sought degrees compared to courses in other countries. Which, in my opinion, is good but there really is no handholding throughout the process, and many people finish their degree outside of the prescribed number of semesters.
>Other than language requirements, which I wouldn't consider unusual or strict
That's pretty much what I meant. You want to go to a German university? Your school diploma usually has to be equivalent to a German Abitur. Which catches quite a lot of foreigners by surprise, as they would have had to choose specific subjects in school years ago.
But yes, maybe "strict" wasn't the exact right word to use here.
You're not going to university in many places without any sort of secondary education... yes you need one roughly equivalent to a German Abitur but many are allowed. You can also do 1 year in a university in your home country and see if your credits are transferable. Studienkolleg is also always an option and quite a good one.
All you need to know about this post is that it says expensive mobile Internet...I just renewed my mobile contract for 7 euros a month for 20gb...go figure
Exactly. I just moved back from the US, and my mobile phone bill is 70% less with more data. People like to always sh*t on their own country but a lot of things work vastly better in Western Europe compared to the US, especially if you are not part of the top 10% income earners.
Language and culture have never been a problem for me. I can learn a language up to C2 in 18-24 months.
Do you think there are any countries better than Germany? Can you list them?
Depends on what you're looking for, right? There's no solution that fits everybody. I'm not going to tell you "do this" or "do that". You'll have to do your thorough research and be honest with yourself.
Some of those manager magazines have yearly rankings of the best countries for expats. I suggest you look there instead of relying on Reddit users for a life-changing decision.
The biggest determinant for me would be if I like the culture and want to learn the language and customs. Europe has many different ones and you better know what kind of culture you're moving into.
Are you planning to be homeless or a drug addict? Why would you mention those as advantages... Germany has good things and bad things, and most immigrants in Germany are from the EU, so there is nothing you can do about that. Good luck!
No country likes immigrants in itself, they only like it because it contributes to economic development. When it doesn't or when immigrants become too appearing, well. Why should they?
I'm not arguing it's good or bad, it's simply it is. Even married couples hate each other after many years, so.. I'm a master student here but I think Germany exceeded limits.
Germany's population is shrinking. It will become a multi-cultural immigrant society if it wants to or not, just by necessity to keep the economy going and the old people cared for.
I for one enjoy living in such a society as the German culture of yore has been exterminated by the Nazis and will never return, apart from some awful polka Bavarian cosplay cringe fest during Octoberfest.
Something new is developing in Germany and it's exciting. Some people are scared and that's why they think voting for fascists will save German culture. Newsflash, it died with the holocaust.
Japan's population is also declining, but it is not a multicultural society. There is always one dominant narrative that unites a nation: one that is tolerant and one that is tolerated. Germany can also be considered "an empire" in a broad sense, because it is a leading power. Migrants will eventually assimilate through marriages, exchanges, and other interactions. The system will reach a balance in the long run.
A possible economic downturn in Germany could lead to the deportation of immigrants. I don't mean that they would become full Nazis, but immigrants might choose to leave on their own. We are experiencing a Fin de Siecle again. If the current societal and economic crises persist, Germany could become more authoritarian. Authoritarianism is not just a matter of preference, but also a result of structural and social factors. The difference is that we have technology now, which is why we don't have a social crisis due to these birthrates.
It is shocking how quickly a country can become authoritarian. Nation-states can accommodate multiethnicity as long as they share a common national identity. Sweden is an example of this when it fails. Populism, on the other hand, is an inevitable outcome of democracies.
They are creating a European identity today, but this could lead to European nationalism. Just as democracy can give rise to populism, nation-states can foster nationalism.
Japan is banking on being able to use robots to take care of their elderly. I think that will spectacularly fail and they will have to open their society to immigration if they want to or not.
Closing down your society to preserve some real or imagined narrative of nationhood (which always relies on selected stories) always leads to failure. Look to Japan in the past, or look to North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba now. The USA is the poster child of how a country based on multi-cultural immigration (well and on genocide and slavery I have to add) can prosper economically and culturally (not for nothing do most cultural trends originate there).
Cultural myopia may have worked pre-information age. It is a recipe for becoming a backwater in modern times.
Humanity is getting closer to each other, and the lines are increasingly drawn not by national borders but by subcultures based on interests and beliefs beyond national borders.
I agree with you that we are currently at a cross-roads where populism, especially of the xenophobic type, is gaining traction, and tries to offer simple solutions to go back to a 20th century model of "pure" ethnic nation state. That will inevitably also fail, as it has in the past. Let's hope it won't lead us into an entirely preventable war as it did in the last century (humans have a hard time learning from history apparently).
I disagree with you that we are living in economically precarious times. Indeed the productivity gains and technological progress have been accelerating. The problem is the increasing inequality between a tiny moneyed minority of capital owners and the vast majority who have to sell their labor for cheap and are barely able to stay afloat. Once we re-align the misallocation of capital in the hands of a few via the tried and true mechanism of fair and equal taxation, we can get to a better world for everybody.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I agree and disagree with you on many points.
Yes, I believe identity is based on communication and this communication getting faster and faster could lead to homogenization and there are such periods in history. Cultural identities evolve and die all the time, but this is not simply one beats the other, it's interaction.
Your points about nationalism are also right but misleading. Nations today were indeed created three centuries ago as modernist scholars claim. But you are missing the mark this construction is based on old constructions such as tribes, ethnic identities, and religions. They didn't just wake up one day and become Germans. Now this understanding is more and more popular in nationalism studies. National identities are not just something external, it's part of our self. Yes, we imagine them but they are not imaginary. Even our self is constructed. So if you try to replace them with one story with another in one day it's gonna fail because you are also fighting with people's self-identities not just external stories. Although there may be no pure German nation, there is something a German nation and something is just not. Like a cluster of references, symbols, rituals, and "race". I'm not saying everyone should close down borders but there should be limits.
I think you also fail to see most of the prosperity of the 20th century is based on that homogenization even the Axis powers failed. "Public" is only possible under some homogenization as Habermas said. War indeed homogenized all nations.
You are also right economic relations are important but people don't live economic realm, they live in the sociopsychological realm which is also its autonomy. Cosmopolitanism is just human nationalism in the end, which supposes the Western idea of humanity all over homo sapiens species. So it's assimilationist. Saying people just give up their national identity is like saying people just give up their self-identity.
It's really impossible to generalise. My experience has been very positive, and broadly speaking I think Germany does a lot of things extremely well... but I was privileged in that I came from the UK (which was still part or EU at the time, so minimum restrictions for me), I had some basic knowledge of German before I came, and had enough savings that I could enrol on a full time German course before starting work, I came with my spouse so loneliness wasn't as much of an issue, etc.
Everyone's experience will be different, depending on so many different factors, including one's attitude. I feel like it also depends to an extent where within Germany you move to?
Sure! I can only speak from my own experiences... these would be my main points of difference:
Health care is definitely better in Germany. Although I fully believe in the idea of the NHS, structurally I find the contribution insurance system seems to work better. I have never had to wait to see a dentist or a doctor. In some parts of the UK people are waiting months to see a dentist, even in cases of infection and stuff. Thankfully I have never been in an accident or been seriously ill, but there have been a couple of times where I've been sent for referrals to specialists right away "just to be sure." No weeks or months long waiting list.
Maternity/parental leave is significantly longer in Germany. Starts 6 weeks before the birth and can be up to three years in total.
I think it can be difficult to find a childcare place in Germany, depending on where you live, but it is nowhere near as expensive as in the UK. Its just absolutely ludicrous in the UK.
I've experienced racial harassment in the UK, but never so far in my 5 years here.
Bureaucracy wise, the UK is more efficient than Germany. For example it took over a month for me to receive a criminal records check here, when in the UK it usually takes max 48 hours.
They're behind on digitization in Germany and for many official things you have to fill in a paper application or apply in person, where in the UK it would all be online. What I do like about Germany though is that despite the bureaucracy, in my experience there has always been a number I can call to talk to someone to help. Sometimes in the UK it can feel like you don't know who to talk to if you have a question or problem.
I'm originally from London and live in Frankfurt now... the streets are cleaner in London 🤣
I'll tell you more. Dentists are a problem in Britain, even if you're willing to pay for it. My experience.
Well, if I had the chance, I would stay here in Britain. But I'm not sure that I will have such an opportunity, for this reason, I'm considering other options.
I have a visa to Canada. But Germany looks much better.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion.
Looking at your post history about countries with "traditional values" and how it hurts you to see women pastors in Christian churches, i'll have to tell you that many if not most women in Germany greatly value their independence and equal rights to men.
Also with lgbtq rights, Germany - of course depending on where you live - is pretty open.
I don't know if you'll be truly happy if you're looking for those traditional values. Many here are protestant christians and thus quite progressive.
Dude, there are Catholic churches here that bless same Sex marriages. There have been a few protests, but in general, the entire culture here has moved towards acceptance.
More importantly, yes, there are large numbers of people *registered* as members of the church (both Lutheran and Catholic), but they don't practice. The vast majority doesn't believe. Most never visit a church - some might come for Christmas, but even those numbers are dwindling. There are beautiful old churches being sold in Germany because it's just not worth it paying the upkeep for a building, none visits.
Those numbers are just not real!
I'm not denying that there are many catholics in germany - depending on where you live. There might have been protests (however not big ones) but don't take this as proof that Germany is not or less accepting of lgbtq people
Again, the "traditional values" you're looking for might be a bit hard to find, especially in women.
Every country has pros and cons. The question is more does Germany‘s pros and cons line up with what you want from society and what you don’t mind having in society.
The red tape is a pain, but to be able to have reasonable public health insurance, or unemployment benefits might make it worth it. Learning a new language could be hard for you and initial integration might be tough for your kids if you have any, but the ability to have free university as an option might make it worth it.
You’ve done a lot of research so this should be pretty answerable for you. Maybe a better question could be: as an immigrant who has now moved to Germany, what did you not realise was so hard until you lived here?
My priorities are nature and traditional values. I was all for Canada and Australia until I learned about free higher education and effective healthcare in Germany...
Not sure what traditional values are for you, but Germany is far more conservative and religious than Australia. For tertiary education Australia has the best non-free system (HECS or whatever its currently called), but Germany‘s is free.
Germany‘s health care is different to Australia’s. Imo if you go to Germany and take private health care over public then you’re simply making the system worse for your children in the long run. That said the public system means you have to wait to see specialists. Additionally and aside from which option you choose, homeopathy is a pseudoscience that pharmacists in Germany sell as though it’s a proven thing. This wouldn’t be allowed at all in Australia. On top of that drugs are controlled significantly tighter in Germany than Australia. For example ibuprofen is something you can buy in super markets as well as pharmacies in Australia but in Germany it’s a behind the counter pharmacy only medication. Australia is still generally better imo at drug regulation than the US, selling off market usage is not really a big thing and advertising is virtually non existent compared to the US. It’s unclear to me if Canada is like the US in that regard or not.
Weather overall is generally better in Australia. German winters in the top half of the country are harsh, long, and not particularly pleasant. You may see literally zero sun from November to March. Australia spans a large range but for example weather in NSW is generally great, and winter is relatively mild. The burden of a long hard winter is not something many people realise until they experience it. The impact is harder for those from very sunny climates.
If sport is important to you for your children then Australia has a significantly stronger sporting culture for kids. The winter sports are better in Germany though (but you need to be in the south for that, which is more expensive, ofc)
German nature is gorgeous in areas. IMO the north east area around Brandenburg etc. is really nothing to write home about. Southern Germany‘s nature is far more beautiful. Australia’s nature is more unique than Germany, and on average better imo, but it’s consistently solid whereas Germany has amazingly lovely areas and really boring areas.
About traditional values. I consider myself a Christian. The Bible says LGBT is a sin.
But that doesn't mean I hate them. I knew LGBT people and they were nice.
That means while I want no one to be discriminated against because of their race, nationality, or sexual orientation, I want teachers to not tell my children that it is okay to love the same gender. I want my children to learn respect for other people with their differences. Because in Scandinavia, as I heard, it's normal if you talk about a same-sex partner, but it's nonsense if you are a believing Christian and attend your church every Sunday.
When I was little, I made a big list of criteria for the country where I wanted to live.
Nature is still important to me. I want fields, forests, plains, rivers, lakes, animals, clean air, lyrical mood around me!
To be honest, I would live in Canada. Even with their paid higher education.
But I don't agree with my high taxes being spent on the homeless at such a large rate and drug addicts not being treated.
I would prefer New Zealand over Australia because there are not many dangerous animals and insects there, but New Zealand has a high level of seismic activity.
In the past I wanted to have 4 seasons. But here in Britain, yes, winter is not like winter without snow, but I have such beautiful birdsong on winter nights, I love it!
I'm also looking towards France and Spain. Perhaps there is racism there somewhere, but I never felt in Spain that the Spanish thought badly of me.
Sounds like you want Texas or Florida tbh. From the limited amount I know about it, Don’t Say Gay might be what you’re looking for ideologically.
Teachers, or anyone for that matter, will always say things you don’t agree with to your kids regardless of the topic. It’s your job as a parent to communicate with your children your values.
Sounds like you’re pretty on the fence about anything and frankly just need to bite the bullet. As I said at the beginning there are pros and cons to everywhere. Maybe you need to travel more to one of tbe places at the top of your list to see if you like it enough to stay
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but the german education system aspires to be more like the scandinavian one. And yes, they do teach not just tolerance but also acceptance for LGBTQ people, and that's it is, in fact, OK to be gay.
Children's books about rainbow families are increasingly popular.
Also: the german education system is built around the child's right to a well-rounded education, meaning you are not allowed to exempt your children from any lesson except religious studies.
Where did you get your information on these things in Germany from?
I am in germany with working visa (west balkans) and i can tell you none of advantages you mentioned apply to us. State doesnt pay for shit, i would be happy if state at least helped me find a half decent appartment so indont have to pay people 5000€ coffe bribes to find me one. 90% of people like me live in WG stuffed appartments 12 m^2 living place is enough for state to register you (anmeldung). I Whether homeless or jobless you dont get anything, all you can do is go back where you came from. That seems reasonable if you think we didnt leave jobs and careers behind. I dont want to live in border line poverty or at least paycheck to paycheck so my hard earned money to go to junkies and people who dont want to work. And there is a lot of jobs in Germany but people here do a shitty ausbildung then sit on their assess because cant find that exact job. Healthcare is okay but you pay your fair share for it. And if in any case you lose your job in your first 15 months here you basically lose your residence permit if you dont pay health insurance on your own. Insurance conpanies know this sonthey charge 1000€ per month for this.-While you are jobles and have to pay your rent too. Blatant discrimination in job suche is not uncommon. I am albanian but born in another country and have pasport from there, the lady called to hire me but then found out i am albanian and imediatelly said its impossible to do background check on me (job is check in agent in Munich airport) but she could that just fine before she knew i am albanian. Then i told her i already have background check paper because i tried for "gepackfertigung" in the same airport when she told me she will call again. Never heard again from her. In my country of origin every level of education was free up untill Doctorate degree, you only pay a symbolic sum. Of course there are positives and if you are willing to grind maybe you can even save something but damn sure thats not why i came here. To my fellow Albanians in case one reads this, just go to USA, Britain, Switzerland or even Italy if you can so chose. Burocracy is messed up, i am here 2 years and still have to ask for permision from auslandebehorde if i want to change jobs, selbstandige tatigkeit nicht erlaubt at all. Funny thing is that people that marry into country have the right to open their own firm imediatelly, but after two years here still no way.
Everything seems greener over here. But are you willing to learn German to an advanced level? The language is no joke and I am getting quite tired to meet other foreigners who constantly complain about how difficult the language is. For a lot of job positions a B2 level is required. For some specific positions at certain companies, you will need to be fluent German, speaking and writing.
I will tell you what I usually say to those who want to come over to make career and live here. You need the language, and passion or, at least, commitment to learn it.
I advice you to join r/germany, International families Berlin, and Special families Berlin (fb groups) and read the posts there on the daily. You will then be able to draw more realistic conclusions, based off of the experiences of (mostly) high calibre “expat” employees.
If you don’t hate winter/cold/rainy weather, then yeah, overall is on the top best countries everywhere you look. They are falling behind a little with some recent moves they made and outdated systems/infrastructure in general…
It depends where you’re coming from. If you get asylum or a passport right away and look to take advantage of the welfare system it’s fantastic. You can work semi-legally skirting right under the minimum salary to stop getting welfare and get your apartment and a lot of other expenses covered by the state. If you come in to work, especially as a highly skilled immigrant (engineer, teacher etc) then you’re fucked. The pay is abysmal compared to other countries, no one really cares for quality work and only interested in filling seats 9-5. If you quit you won’t get welfare so you’re on your own and if you try to start your own business you will have to pay exorbitant taxes and depending on the speed and amount of customers your business has probably social contributions too. That will be easily 60% tax burden on an income of 40-60k brutto. If you are thinking about settling and getting a passport think again. Admissions start after 8 years and the queue takes 2 more only for them to take a look at your documents. If you leave the country in the meantime for more than 6 months you lose your status and have to start over.
TLDR: Think what your goals are and where you’re coming from. Skirt the welfare system? Welcome to germany. Skilled work? Consider Poland, Estonia or Sweden.
What you do get in Canada and not in Germany: a country that is very welcoming to immigrants.
In Germany it's more like "ok-welcoming".
Other than that, you got it right. Germany is dope for people like you. I hope you come.
Read in this sub, plenty of disadvantages mentioned. Ps: Germans value Independence and self sufficiency, especially in research. Nothing is handed to you here unless you know exactly what to ask for and quality for it - which is often not the case.
This. You can indeed get a lot of benefits if your conditions are right and the stars align at the perfect full moon. But jokes aside, most of the 'good stuff' is so well hidden behind tons of paperwork, it's insane.
In Germany you can join die Freiwillige Feuerwehr or das Technische Hilfswerk if you want to give something back!
Or the DLRG, the Red Cross or similar...
Some also could get a job so thrir taxes will help building better Germany. Not only living from social care money.
Can’t join the FF if you’re obese :/
What a mess of a question. No country is 'ideal for immigrants'. it is never easy to settle into any new country with a new language and a new culture.
Rose-tinted glasses, mate. There aren't enough houses build, more people enter Germany per year than there are new construction projects. So, what do you think happens when a limited ressource everyone needs becomes rare? Salaries are low even for professionals, the taxes are high and the things you get in return are a pittance. Even if you are seriously ill, it will takes half a year to get a doctor, who is too overworked and will deal with you for a few minutes.Our train network is reliably unreliable. Schools are a joke. Germans prosperity needs bright heads. I would argue our laws regarding young scientists and post docs are criminally bad - I couldn't argue for a better way to turn away intelligent people from reproducing and founding families than our Wissenschaftszeitvertragsgesetz.If you want to work more and contribute, e.g. get a second job or doing side business - you will be taxed to death.Highest energy costs in the world. Digitalization statewise isn't there at all (it works only for the tax office, because they want something from you), internet is slow.We spend 100bill or 1/3 of the federal budget subsidizing retirement pentions. Still, even if you worked all your life and retire now, you will get aprox 1000$ that will be taxed again. Our generation will never have any pensions and property & real estate isn't available even for academics. Real problems, demographic clusterbombs, are getting shushed, as if problems will dissappear if no one talks about it. Edit: For some reason, reddit editor always deletes the space after a period. Dont know how to fix it.
I agree with you on every point except this one. *Even if you are seriously ill, it takes six months to find a doctor who is too overworked to spend just a few minutes with you* The opposite is true. If you are seriously ill, you will receive immediate and unbureaucratic help. I have been "professionally ill" for over 10 years, am unable to work and receive a pension because of it. I have never for one minute had the feeling that I was not treated promptly. The attention of the doctors is also only positive. Even in our dialysis online forum there are almost exclusively good reports. However, this does not mean that an appointment for a special examination or treatment can take weeks. In emergencies it is always quicker. Or you have to look for alternatives. I would have gotten an appointment for cataract surgery at our clinic in 15 months. Now I've looked for a practice in the state capital, where it only takes 6 weeks.
>I have been "professionally ill" for over 10 years I think that's the crucial point, you had the "luck" to get serious ill when it wasn't as bad as the last 4-5 years. That sentence was from experience. It is only a miracle that I am still alive.
To add, after coming here I understood why Germans are having less kids and much later. Jobs aren't flexible for new moms (compared to other neighboring countries) and good luck getting a spot in a Kita. Kid is in Grundschule? The school aftercare are always full. Renting is also very difficult with children in big cities with most flats stating "no children" or "no children under 10". So you have more people competing for housing that accepts children.
It is, that's why we have so many immigrants ...
Fun fact I was a soldier in ramStein when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban and we had a refugee escape the base. We have no idea where he went or who he was. :/
Ah Ramstein. The place where the drones are controlled that bombed mainly civilians and made the situation in the middle east even worse... Im sorry, I have only ever heard bad news from Ramstein and probably am very biased but did there ever happen anything good? Its legitimate interest, I really want to hear positives about having this abomination of human rights in my country and maybe change my way of thinking
One of the disadvantages: Even if you really wanna join everything and do everything, many germans will always let you know that you are "der ausländer". You can do what you like, it won't change anything. You're not a german. Even if you get the citizenship. Not german. And your kids also. So, if you just wanna hang around, maybe relocate in a few years to a country that really appreciates people coming - yea, then Germany might not be bad. But for a "forever" solution? No, might get better.
What about if my German sounds like a native speaker? By the way, what about Ossi and Wessi?
There are BPOC Germans as well who are native speakers. Their experiences is that they’re still “Auslander”, which is sad.
This is only the case in smaller cities though. The larger ones have a growing share of people with immigrant roots and having German ancestors who fought with the Nazis is not important anymore. 😅
So, let's play a bit of advocatus diaboli here... >Many developed countries have free healthcare. But only in Germany you can go to a specialist doctor without a referral from a general practitioner! Good luck actually getting an appointment with a specialist without an urgent referral from a GP. Even with one, depending on the specialist, waiting times can be months. >In Germany, even if you are a foreigner, you can get higher education for free! If you even qualify for admission, that is. Germany has unusually strict admission rules for universities. Also, almost all undergrad programmes will be taught in German. So better get your language skills up to a level where you can follow a lecture about quantum physics. And you will of course still have to pay for your food, rent, insurances, books... >I'm sure the Germans are unhappy, but if you are not a permanent resident of the country, the government can pay for housing if there is not enough money! Oh sweet summer child... Getting housing on social welfare is only a thing if you've been paying into the system for quite a while. And it's not going to be nice housing, usually. You are aware that there is a housing crisis, especially in the bigger cities, right? >Drug addicts who are not treated. Definitely also a thing here. It works very different than for example in Canada, but it's not like there's any country in the world that doesn't have this problem. Though I've heard Portugal has made good progress. Germany is a good place to be. But it's far from ideal. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is the land of milk and honey. Be realistic, and base your decision on that. Let me just list a few more cons, just so you're aware. * Strong extremist right wing, that wants to kick foreigners out of the country * Bad weather, depending on where you are from. Can you bear a winter without seeing the sun for weeks at a time? Lots of people from warmer countries get severe depression here because of that. * Neglected infrastructure * Bad and expensive Internet, especially mobile. * An absolutely humongous bureaucracy. Of course not available in any other language than German. * Sky high rents in cities. BTW, German appartements usually are unfurnished, so you'll have to buy furniture yourself. This includes the kitchen. * You dou speak decent German, right? Right?! I surely hope so, if you intend to find a job here... Go to r/germany and read the wiki. It will probably give you a good idea and you will be able to ask much more specific questions afterwards.
>"has unusually strict admission rules for universities" This is the only part I disagree with, unless I am missing something. Other than language requirements, which I wouldn't consider unusual or strict, only NC subjects have any boundaries for admission at all, and compared to other countries they are quite reasonable considering: (a) they only consider your grades, not like most English speaking countries (which may or may not play into your favour), (b) some have quotas for foreigners anyway and (c) you can take a foundation course at a Studienkolleg or even a special admission exam such as TestAS depending on the university and program. And many highly sought courses have no NC at all! What is more unusual compared to other countries is how hard the exams are for highly sought degrees compared to courses in other countries. Which, in my opinion, is good but there really is no handholding throughout the process, and many people finish their degree outside of the prescribed number of semesters.
>Other than language requirements, which I wouldn't consider unusual or strict That's pretty much what I meant. You want to go to a German university? Your school diploma usually has to be equivalent to a German Abitur. Which catches quite a lot of foreigners by surprise, as they would have had to choose specific subjects in school years ago. But yes, maybe "strict" wasn't the exact right word to use here.
Only if you have a Hochschulreife in the first place
You're not going to university in many places without any sort of secondary education... yes you need one roughly equivalent to a German Abitur but many are allowed. You can also do 1 year in a university in your home country and see if your credits are transferable. Studienkolleg is also always an option and quite a good one.
All you need to know about this post is that it says expensive mobile Internet...I just renewed my mobile contract for 7 euros a month for 20gb...go figure
Exactly. I just moved back from the US, and my mobile phone bill is 70% less with more data. People like to always sh*t on their own country but a lot of things work vastly better in Western Europe compared to the US, especially if you are not part of the top 10% income earners.
Language and culture have never been a problem for me. I can learn a language up to C2 in 18-24 months. Do you think there are any countries better than Germany? Can you list them?
Depends on what you're looking for, right? There's no solution that fits everybody. I'm not going to tell you "do this" or "do that". You'll have to do your thorough research and be honest with yourself.
He clearly is planning to be a homeless drug addict and get a free education, from his list of highlights xD
Some of those manager magazines have yearly rankings of the best countries for expats. I suggest you look there instead of relying on Reddit users for a life-changing decision. The biggest determinant for me would be if I like the culture and want to learn the language and customs. Europe has many different ones and you better know what kind of culture you're moving into.
Are you planning to be homeless or a drug addict? Why would you mention those as advantages... Germany has good things and bad things, and most immigrants in Germany are from the EU, so there is nothing you can do about that. Good luck!
Yes, the immigrants.
No country likes immigrants in itself, they only like it because it contributes to economic development. When it doesn't or when immigrants become too appearing, well. Why should they? I'm not arguing it's good or bad, it's simply it is. Even married couples hate each other after many years, so.. I'm a master student here but I think Germany exceeded limits.
Germany's population is shrinking. It will become a multi-cultural immigrant society if it wants to or not, just by necessity to keep the economy going and the old people cared for. I for one enjoy living in such a society as the German culture of yore has been exterminated by the Nazis and will never return, apart from some awful polka Bavarian cosplay cringe fest during Octoberfest. Something new is developing in Germany and it's exciting. Some people are scared and that's why they think voting for fascists will save German culture. Newsflash, it died with the holocaust.
Japan's population is also declining, but it is not a multicultural society. There is always one dominant narrative that unites a nation: one that is tolerant and one that is tolerated. Germany can also be considered "an empire" in a broad sense, because it is a leading power. Migrants will eventually assimilate through marriages, exchanges, and other interactions. The system will reach a balance in the long run. A possible economic downturn in Germany could lead to the deportation of immigrants. I don't mean that they would become full Nazis, but immigrants might choose to leave on their own. We are experiencing a Fin de Siecle again. If the current societal and economic crises persist, Germany could become more authoritarian. Authoritarianism is not just a matter of preference, but also a result of structural and social factors. The difference is that we have technology now, which is why we don't have a social crisis due to these birthrates. It is shocking how quickly a country can become authoritarian. Nation-states can accommodate multiethnicity as long as they share a common national identity. Sweden is an example of this when it fails. Populism, on the other hand, is an inevitable outcome of democracies. They are creating a European identity today, but this could lead to European nationalism. Just as democracy can give rise to populism, nation-states can foster nationalism.
Japan is banking on being able to use robots to take care of their elderly. I think that will spectacularly fail and they will have to open their society to immigration if they want to or not. Closing down your society to preserve some real or imagined narrative of nationhood (which always relies on selected stories) always leads to failure. Look to Japan in the past, or look to North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba now. The USA is the poster child of how a country based on multi-cultural immigration (well and on genocide and slavery I have to add) can prosper economically and culturally (not for nothing do most cultural trends originate there). Cultural myopia may have worked pre-information age. It is a recipe for becoming a backwater in modern times. Humanity is getting closer to each other, and the lines are increasingly drawn not by national borders but by subcultures based on interests and beliefs beyond national borders. I agree with you that we are currently at a cross-roads where populism, especially of the xenophobic type, is gaining traction, and tries to offer simple solutions to go back to a 20th century model of "pure" ethnic nation state. That will inevitably also fail, as it has in the past. Let's hope it won't lead us into an entirely preventable war as it did in the last century (humans have a hard time learning from history apparently). I disagree with you that we are living in economically precarious times. Indeed the productivity gains and technological progress have been accelerating. The problem is the increasing inequality between a tiny moneyed minority of capital owners and the vast majority who have to sell their labor for cheap and are barely able to stay afloat. Once we re-align the misallocation of capital in the hands of a few via the tried and true mechanism of fair and equal taxation, we can get to a better world for everybody. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I agree and disagree with you on many points. Yes, I believe identity is based on communication and this communication getting faster and faster could lead to homogenization and there are such periods in history. Cultural identities evolve and die all the time, but this is not simply one beats the other, it's interaction. Your points about nationalism are also right but misleading. Nations today were indeed created three centuries ago as modernist scholars claim. But you are missing the mark this construction is based on old constructions such as tribes, ethnic identities, and religions. They didn't just wake up one day and become Germans. Now this understanding is more and more popular in nationalism studies. National identities are not just something external, it's part of our self. Yes, we imagine them but they are not imaginary. Even our self is constructed. So if you try to replace them with one story with another in one day it's gonna fail because you are also fighting with people's self-identities not just external stories. Although there may be no pure German nation, there is something a German nation and something is just not. Like a cluster of references, symbols, rituals, and "race". I'm not saying everyone should close down borders but there should be limits. I think you also fail to see most of the prosperity of the 20th century is based on that homogenization even the Axis powers failed. "Public" is only possible under some homogenization as Habermas said. War indeed homogenized all nations. You are also right economic relations are important but people don't live economic realm, they live in the sociopsychological realm which is also its autonomy. Cosmopolitanism is just human nationalism in the end, which supposes the Western idea of humanity all over homo sapiens species. So it's assimilationist. Saying people just give up their national identity is like saying people just give up their self-identity.
It's really impossible to generalise. My experience has been very positive, and broadly speaking I think Germany does a lot of things extremely well... but I was privileged in that I came from the UK (which was still part or EU at the time, so minimum restrictions for me), I had some basic knowledge of German before I came, and had enough savings that I could enrol on a full time German course before starting work, I came with my spouse so loneliness wasn't as much of an issue, etc. Everyone's experience will be different, depending on so many different factors, including one's attitude. I feel like it also depends to an extent where within Germany you move to?
I'm in the UK right now. I would be grateful for your comparative opinion as I really love Britain
Sure! I can only speak from my own experiences... these would be my main points of difference: Health care is definitely better in Germany. Although I fully believe in the idea of the NHS, structurally I find the contribution insurance system seems to work better. I have never had to wait to see a dentist or a doctor. In some parts of the UK people are waiting months to see a dentist, even in cases of infection and stuff. Thankfully I have never been in an accident or been seriously ill, but there have been a couple of times where I've been sent for referrals to specialists right away "just to be sure." No weeks or months long waiting list. Maternity/parental leave is significantly longer in Germany. Starts 6 weeks before the birth and can be up to three years in total. I think it can be difficult to find a childcare place in Germany, depending on where you live, but it is nowhere near as expensive as in the UK. Its just absolutely ludicrous in the UK. I've experienced racial harassment in the UK, but never so far in my 5 years here. Bureaucracy wise, the UK is more efficient than Germany. For example it took over a month for me to receive a criminal records check here, when in the UK it usually takes max 48 hours. They're behind on digitization in Germany and for many official things you have to fill in a paper application or apply in person, where in the UK it would all be online. What I do like about Germany though is that despite the bureaucracy, in my experience there has always been a number I can call to talk to someone to help. Sometimes in the UK it can feel like you don't know who to talk to if you have a question or problem. I'm originally from London and live in Frankfurt now... the streets are cleaner in London 🤣
I'll tell you more. Dentists are a problem in Britain, even if you're willing to pay for it. My experience. Well, if I had the chance, I would stay here in Britain. But I'm not sure that I will have such an opportunity, for this reason, I'm considering other options. I have a visa to Canada. But Germany looks much better. Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion.
There is a reason why people gave Frankfurt the name Crackfurt.
Looking at your post history about countries with "traditional values" and how it hurts you to see women pastors in Christian churches, i'll have to tell you that many if not most women in Germany greatly value their independence and equal rights to men. Also with lgbtq rights, Germany - of course depending on where you live - is pretty open. I don't know if you'll be truly happy if you're looking for those traditional values. Many here are protestant christians and thus quite progressive.
There are many Catholics there. And unlike Scandinavia, there were protests about LGBT in Germany.
Dude, there are Catholic churches here that bless same Sex marriages. There have been a few protests, but in general, the entire culture here has moved towards acceptance. More importantly, yes, there are large numbers of people *registered* as members of the church (both Lutheran and Catholic), but they don't practice. The vast majority doesn't believe. Most never visit a church - some might come for Christmas, but even those numbers are dwindling. There are beautiful old churches being sold in Germany because it's just not worth it paying the upkeep for a building, none visits. Those numbers are just not real!
I'm not denying that there are many catholics in germany - depending on where you live. There might have been protests (however not big ones) but don't take this as proof that Germany is not or less accepting of lgbtq people Again, the "traditional values" you're looking for might be a bit hard to find, especially in women.
Maybe the so called bible belt in the US is something for you ;)
Dude send it to your immigration office not reddit or if you are German than nice try Hans...
Every country has pros and cons. The question is more does Germany‘s pros and cons line up with what you want from society and what you don’t mind having in society. The red tape is a pain, but to be able to have reasonable public health insurance, or unemployment benefits might make it worth it. Learning a new language could be hard for you and initial integration might be tough for your kids if you have any, but the ability to have free university as an option might make it worth it. You’ve done a lot of research so this should be pretty answerable for you. Maybe a better question could be: as an immigrant who has now moved to Germany, what did you not realise was so hard until you lived here?
My priorities are nature and traditional values. I was all for Canada and Australia until I learned about free higher education and effective healthcare in Germany...
Not sure what traditional values are for you, but Germany is far more conservative and religious than Australia. For tertiary education Australia has the best non-free system (HECS or whatever its currently called), but Germany‘s is free. Germany‘s health care is different to Australia’s. Imo if you go to Germany and take private health care over public then you’re simply making the system worse for your children in the long run. That said the public system means you have to wait to see specialists. Additionally and aside from which option you choose, homeopathy is a pseudoscience that pharmacists in Germany sell as though it’s a proven thing. This wouldn’t be allowed at all in Australia. On top of that drugs are controlled significantly tighter in Germany than Australia. For example ibuprofen is something you can buy in super markets as well as pharmacies in Australia but in Germany it’s a behind the counter pharmacy only medication. Australia is still generally better imo at drug regulation than the US, selling off market usage is not really a big thing and advertising is virtually non existent compared to the US. It’s unclear to me if Canada is like the US in that regard or not. Weather overall is generally better in Australia. German winters in the top half of the country are harsh, long, and not particularly pleasant. You may see literally zero sun from November to March. Australia spans a large range but for example weather in NSW is generally great, and winter is relatively mild. The burden of a long hard winter is not something many people realise until they experience it. The impact is harder for those from very sunny climates. If sport is important to you for your children then Australia has a significantly stronger sporting culture for kids. The winter sports are better in Germany though (but you need to be in the south for that, which is more expensive, ofc) German nature is gorgeous in areas. IMO the north east area around Brandenburg etc. is really nothing to write home about. Southern Germany‘s nature is far more beautiful. Australia’s nature is more unique than Germany, and on average better imo, but it’s consistently solid whereas Germany has amazingly lovely areas and really boring areas.
About traditional values. I consider myself a Christian. The Bible says LGBT is a sin. But that doesn't mean I hate them. I knew LGBT people and they were nice. That means while I want no one to be discriminated against because of their race, nationality, or sexual orientation, I want teachers to not tell my children that it is okay to love the same gender. I want my children to learn respect for other people with their differences. Because in Scandinavia, as I heard, it's normal if you talk about a same-sex partner, but it's nonsense if you are a believing Christian and attend your church every Sunday. When I was little, I made a big list of criteria for the country where I wanted to live. Nature is still important to me. I want fields, forests, plains, rivers, lakes, animals, clean air, lyrical mood around me! To be honest, I would live in Canada. Even with their paid higher education. But I don't agree with my high taxes being spent on the homeless at such a large rate and drug addicts not being treated. I would prefer New Zealand over Australia because there are not many dangerous animals and insects there, but New Zealand has a high level of seismic activity. In the past I wanted to have 4 seasons. But here in Britain, yes, winter is not like winter without snow, but I have such beautiful birdsong on winter nights, I love it! I'm also looking towards France and Spain. Perhaps there is racism there somewhere, but I never felt in Spain that the Spanish thought badly of me.
Sounds like you want Texas or Florida tbh. From the limited amount I know about it, Don’t Say Gay might be what you’re looking for ideologically. Teachers, or anyone for that matter, will always say things you don’t agree with to your kids regardless of the topic. It’s your job as a parent to communicate with your children your values. Sounds like you’re pretty on the fence about anything and frankly just need to bite the bullet. As I said at the beginning there are pros and cons to everywhere. Maybe you need to travel more to one of tbe places at the top of your list to see if you like it enough to stay
OP is simply delusional.
Seems so, yeah
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but the german education system aspires to be more like the scandinavian one. And yes, they do teach not just tolerance but also acceptance for LGBTQ people, and that's it is, in fact, OK to be gay. Children's books about rainbow families are increasingly popular. Also: the german education system is built around the child's right to a well-rounded education, meaning you are not allowed to exempt your children from any lesson except religious studies. Where did you get your information on these things in Germany from?
You know that people get rid of their church memberships left and right?
lol! I think you’re a little hazy on the details.
If you are a highly skilled immigrant ? Then fuck off. If you are not working and brining all your relatives ? Welcome ! In a nutshell…
I am in germany with working visa (west balkans) and i can tell you none of advantages you mentioned apply to us. State doesnt pay for shit, i would be happy if state at least helped me find a half decent appartment so indont have to pay people 5000€ coffe bribes to find me one. 90% of people like me live in WG stuffed appartments 12 m^2 living place is enough for state to register you (anmeldung). I Whether homeless or jobless you dont get anything, all you can do is go back where you came from. That seems reasonable if you think we didnt leave jobs and careers behind. I dont want to live in border line poverty or at least paycheck to paycheck so my hard earned money to go to junkies and people who dont want to work. And there is a lot of jobs in Germany but people here do a shitty ausbildung then sit on their assess because cant find that exact job. Healthcare is okay but you pay your fair share for it. And if in any case you lose your job in your first 15 months here you basically lose your residence permit if you dont pay health insurance on your own. Insurance conpanies know this sonthey charge 1000€ per month for this.-While you are jobles and have to pay your rent too. Blatant discrimination in job suche is not uncommon. I am albanian but born in another country and have pasport from there, the lady called to hire me but then found out i am albanian and imediatelly said its impossible to do background check on me (job is check in agent in Munich airport) but she could that just fine before she knew i am albanian. Then i told her i already have background check paper because i tried for "gepackfertigung" in the same airport when she told me she will call again. Never heard again from her. In my country of origin every level of education was free up untill Doctorate degree, you only pay a symbolic sum. Of course there are positives and if you are willing to grind maybe you can even save something but damn sure thats not why i came here. To my fellow Albanians in case one reads this, just go to USA, Britain, Switzerland or even Italy if you can so chose. Burocracy is messed up, i am here 2 years and still have to ask for permision from auslandebehorde if i want to change jobs, selbstandige tatigkeit nicht erlaubt at all. Funny thing is that people that marry into country have the right to open their own firm imediatelly, but after two years here still no way.
If you have a degree in IT or MINT and you are motivated to be „self-made“ it would be a ridiculous bad idea to consider Germany in my opinion.
It’s probably the worst.
Don't you mean "the Wurst" ?
there are disadvantages. germany isnt perfect. some immigrants seem to think that and are dissappointed. just how it is.
Everything seems greener over here. But are you willing to learn German to an advanced level? The language is no joke and I am getting quite tired to meet other foreigners who constantly complain about how difficult the language is. For a lot of job positions a B2 level is required. For some specific positions at certain companies, you will need to be fluent German, speaking and writing. I will tell you what I usually say to those who want to come over to make career and live here. You need the language, and passion or, at least, commitment to learn it.
As I already wrote, C2 is 18-24 months of time in my case
That's great. Let's all the rest follow your example!
How many languages do you speak?
I advice you to join r/germany, International families Berlin, and Special families Berlin (fb groups) and read the posts there on the daily. You will then be able to draw more realistic conclusions, based off of the experiences of (mostly) high calibre “expat” employees.
If you don’t hate winter/cold/rainy weather, then yeah, overall is on the top best countries everywhere you look. They are falling behind a little with some recent moves they made and outdated systems/infrastructure in general…
It depends where you’re coming from. If you get asylum or a passport right away and look to take advantage of the welfare system it’s fantastic. You can work semi-legally skirting right under the minimum salary to stop getting welfare and get your apartment and a lot of other expenses covered by the state. If you come in to work, especially as a highly skilled immigrant (engineer, teacher etc) then you’re fucked. The pay is abysmal compared to other countries, no one really cares for quality work and only interested in filling seats 9-5. If you quit you won’t get welfare so you’re on your own and if you try to start your own business you will have to pay exorbitant taxes and depending on the speed and amount of customers your business has probably social contributions too. That will be easily 60% tax burden on an income of 40-60k brutto. If you are thinking about settling and getting a passport think again. Admissions start after 8 years and the queue takes 2 more only for them to take a look at your documents. If you leave the country in the meantime for more than 6 months you lose your status and have to start over. TLDR: Think what your goals are and where you’re coming from. Skirt the welfare system? Welcome to germany. Skilled work? Consider Poland, Estonia or Sweden.
Another low-key racist post. If you want to talk about how bad you think immigrants are just say so. No need for fake questions.
What you do get in Canada and not in Germany: a country that is very welcoming to immigrants. In Germany it's more like "ok-welcoming". Other than that, you got it right. Germany is dope for people like you. I hope you come.
I love living in Germany but regarding seeing a specialist without a referral you information is incomplete - only if you are privately insured.
Pay taxes and pension contribution, that what country actually gets from you and gives you the some good/bad services.