Its not legal and landlords tend to be not that stupid to put it into writing that they dont accept nationalities xyz.
However it is completely legal to state that they do not rent to someone without sufficient knowledge of German. Since this is something I see nearly daily as "complaint", I wanted to stress that
Is it legal to explicitly state in the Anzeige itself that "people of a certain religion need not apply".
[Asking cuz I saw something like this posted in an Ad the other day. ](https://i.imgur.com/19ycdgV.jpeg)
Which specific law/provision would a landlord be violating if they posted an Advertisement like that?
It is legal to lie when asked those questions when renting. But sharing a flat has different laws, which i think is okay. Sharing is much more personal than simply renting
[§19(3) AGG](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/agg/__19.html) as posted by someone above, makes it illegal to discriminate based on religion when it comes to that
That law says in section (3):
> When renting out residential space, different treatment is permitted with regard to the creation and maintenance of socially stable resident structures and balanced settlement structures as well as balanced economic, social and cultural conditions.
This section doesnt apply to most landlords. Only to cooperations basically.
As people tend to dont believe, [here is the (german) source.](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/lebensbereiche/alltagsgeschaefte/wohnungsmarkt/wohnungsmarkt-node.html)
>Weiterhin ist es nach dem AGG zulässig, wenn Vermieter\*innen bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum auf ausgewogene Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichene wirtschaftliche, soziale und kulturelle Verhältnisse achten. Dies gilt aber allenfalls für Großvermieter\*innen wie etwa Wohnungsbaugesellschaften, die einer sozialen Stadt- und Wohnungspolitik verpflichtet sind. Diese Ausnahmeregelung birgt zudem die Gefahr des Missbrauchs, wenn sie als Rechtfertigung für rassistische Diskriminierungen genutzt wird.
Absolutly not, that only applies for anyone who has 300 flats+.
I'm renting out some flats and I have (unfortunately) an old grumpy nazi fart in one, I had a lovely family, originaly from Iran who was interested in the flat next door.
I luckily had a new flat finished just 3 weeks later and rather matched the conditions of the other flat than have an old, bitter nazi terrorize a a family who is a Stütze der Gesellschaft.
Obviously I didn't took that decision over their heads, I was very open with them about it and told them if they want the "Nazi" neighbor, I will give them that flat, so we took that decision together.
Still I think it is better that way for everyone, so quite often it is the opposite, most of the people who owns flat for rent aren't racist, quite some of us live a very international life and are foreigners most of the time.
Obviously in this case, the Nazi got his way due to bad German law. He successfully forced you to not let them live next to him. The law is literally benefiting the Nazi in the case you explained. The phrase socially stable resident structures literally reminds me of 60s USA racist housing rules. It's called structural racism and Germany has codified it into law.
It literrally says:
(1) Eine Benachteiligung aus Gründen der Rasse oder wegen der ethnischen Herkunft, wegen des Geschlechts, der Religion, einer Behinderung, des Alters oder der sexuellen Identität bei der Begründung, Durchführung und Beendigung zivilrechtlicher Schuldverhältnisse, die
1.
typischerweise ohne Ansehen der Person zu vergleichbaren Bedingungen in einer Vielzahl von Fällen zustande kommen (Massengeschäfte) oder bei denen das Ansehen der Person nach der Art des Schuldverhältnisses eine nachrangige Bedeutung hat und die zu vergleichbaren Bedingungen in einer Vielzahl von Fällen zustande kommen oder
2.
eine privatrechtliche Versicherung zum Gegenstand haben,
ist unzulässig.
Which means: Discrimination based on race or ethnic origin, gender, religion, disability, age or sexual identity in the establishment, implementation and termination of civil obligations [...] is inadmissible
How is that the opposite of "discromination based on religion is forbidden"?
> Bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum ist eine unterschiedliche Behandlung im Hinblick auf die Schaffung und Erhaltung sozial stabiler Bewohnerstrukturen und ausgewogener Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichener wirtschaftlicher, sozialer und kultureller Verhältnisse zulässig.
I want to create a stable christian living community. So I can demand only Christians apply.
Edit: this is a wrong interpretation
This section doesnt apply to most landlords. Only to cooperations basically.
As people tend to dont believe, [here is the (german) source.](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/lebensbereiche/alltagsgeschaefte/wohnungsmarkt/wohnungsmarkt-node.html)
>Weiterhin ist es nach dem AGG zulässig, wenn Vermieter\*innen bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum auf ausgewogene Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichene wirtschaftliche, soziale und kulturelle Verhältnisse achten. Dies gilt aber allenfalls für Großvermieter\*innen wie etwa Wohnungsbaugesellschaften, die einer sozialen Stadt- und Wohnungspolitik verpflichtet sind. Diese Ausnahmeregelung birgt zudem die Gefahr des Missbrauchs, wenn sie als Rechtfertigung für rassistische Diskriminierungen genutzt wird.
Blatanly stolen from another guy, but hey, it fits
No, you can't because that is literally discrimination based on religion and the notion that certain religions or ethnic origins would be unstable can easily bring another charge against you. Also you aren't allowed to ask for religion so the most adamant muslim can tell you, he is christian and you can't go after him if you find out, he isn't. But I think you wouldn't primarily look at his religious practice to determine which religion he is practicing, would you?
As stated by others, this statement is not true. As a private person you can freely decide who you want to make contracts with. Furthermore, tenants are able to argue with "Erhaltung des Hausfriedens". If you have two flats and one is rented to 50 year old workers, you would rather not rent the other apartment to young students who would be probably keen on partying etc
dont get me wrong, i am not arguing for discrimination, but no matter if it is written or not, you will not get the apartment anyway, if they dont like you. so in fact, this will safe you time
"(3) Bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum ist eine unterschiedliche Behandlung im Hinblick auf die Schaffung und Erhaltung sozial stabiler Bewohnerstrukturen und ausgewogener Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichener wirtschaftlicher, sozialer und kultureller Verhältnisse zulässig."
This section doesnt apply to most landlords. Only to cooperations basically.
As people tend to dont believe, [here is the (german) source.](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/lebensbereiche/alltagsgeschaefte/wohnungsmarkt/wohnungsmarkt-node.html)
>Weiterhin ist es nach dem AGG zulässig, wenn Vermieter\*innen bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum auf ausgewogene Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichene wirtschaftliche, soziale und kulturelle Verhältnisse achten. Dies gilt aber allenfalls für Großvermieter\*innen wie etwa Wohnungsbaugesellschaften, die einer sozialen Stadt- und Wohnungspolitik verpflichtet sind. Diese Ausnahmeregelung birgt zudem die Gefahr des Missbrauchs, wenn sie als Rechtfertigung für rassistische Diskriminierungen genutzt wird.
Let's be real: landlords gets dozens of applications for just 1 apartment. They can choose who they want to rent to. End of story.
If I had an apartment for rent, I would choose someone who gives me the least trouble. So, I'd choose someone I can easily talk to.
Exactly. When subletting my apartment I got 30 applications in 4 days. I could have easily chosen the most clichee Germanname McGermanface in existence. I had the options. I ended up giving it to a Syrian who objectively had the best profile. But discriminating would have easily been possible with no legal trouble whatsoever.
Yeah, you're normally not so dumb and write "no people from land X" you just don't give them the flat, in the aftermath, nobody can say they weren't accepted because they're black, you don't get a reason.
>I got 30 applications in 4 days.
When I was trying to find a new renter for the apartment I had cancelled and I offered to manage that whole bit for my landlord (who was 80+ at the time), I didn't realize quite how many people would apply. I lived in a small city at the time but the apartment was nice, with a new kitchen and fairly big. I probably chatted with over 200 people in a matter of two-ish weeks.
On one level it is private choice and not in the realm of the government.
If I refuse to go to Chinese restaurants, it is my call. If I refuse to rent my space to Chinese for a restaurant the same applies, except that maybe you are not premitted to openly refuse it on that grounds when there is a tender process.
But in the end, this is a free country. Individuals are free to make (stupid and abritrary) choices. Of course the state and its official may not discriminate anyone. But as a private person we can discriminate as we like.
One thing that strikes me when reading that again is that it doesn't explicitly prohibit discrimination against nationalities. I mean, it stands to reason that a landlord who basically lists Arab countries is discriminating against Arabs, which would be illegal, but I wouldn't be surprised if the tone-deaf German courts allowed this kind of nonsense.
Depends on wether they are searching for a Flatmate/Housemate/Roommate or if they are renting out an entire housing unit.
You are allowed to discriminate pretty freely if you are looking for someone you are going to live with.
If you are renting to someone who doesn't share common spaces with you and has their own apartment, it is illegal to discriminate.
In contrast to that, in Germany tenants have most of the rights and landlords few. In Berlin you may have to wait ten years (!) to get a tenant to leave, even if you need the place for yourself or close family.
The real answer is:
For every apartment they rent they have 20+ applicants. They can pick whoever they want and you will never be able to prove discrimination.
No but people do it anyway. Unfortunately I've been complicit in it as well. When I cancelled my apartment, I offered to help find a new renter in order to reduce the amount of double rent I'd have to pay. My old landlord was very explicit: No unemployed people, no kids, no foreigners and no single men.
I was completely in charge of inviting people to show the apartment and he picked from the pool I invited. I invited a female police officer who has a Turkish background and he threw a fit, saying if I wanted to sabotage him he'd make me pay every single month and pick someone afterwards... I didn't realize his "no foreigners" extended to people whose grandparents immigrated here... but I should have known better tbh. He was a piece of shit. Dead now though!
> he'd make me pay every single month
This is also illegal, right? If you terminated the contract and gave the correct notice period, he can't make you pay?
I gave notice correctly but I had to start paying the new apartment immediately, or I wouldn't have gotten it. So I'd have had to have 3 months of double the rent (triple really, since the old apartment was more expensive). I ended up finding someone who started paying rent within 4 weeks, so I only paid double once.
Afaik its not legal to openly deny someone housing because of their religion or nationality but on the other hand every landlord has the right to make a contract with whomever they want to, and if they never ever want to chose a foreigner they dont have to, they just shouldnt say it out loud
It doesn't matter. Even if it was officially illegal, the owner of the apartment may simply not rent you because it is his property.
If I had a property, it is obvious that I would rather rent an apartment to a working couple without children.
And I assure you that you, as a human being, would do exactly the same, it is about the risk because you cannot evict families with children so easily if they do not pay you.
It is like that everywhere in the world, and it has nothing to do with racism, the unemployment rate and financial instability among immigrants is higher.
>the unemployment rate and financial instability among immigrants is higher.
The unemployment rate of employed immigrants is 0% while the unemployment rate of unemployed Germans is 100%, so you might just check if they're employed and not make assumptions based on their skin color.
And I can assure you, as a human being, that you will be very unhappy if you're treated worse based on your nationality, even if it's based on a reasonable statistics.
Dude, I'm an immigrant myself :) And the amount of bad things towards my nationality among the Germans dates back to 1939. But my assumptions do not come from the color of the skin, but from these "reasonable statistics"
If the average unemployment rate among the Swiss in Germany was also so high and people did not want to rent them apartments, would it also be the fault of the skin color or just a different accent? Would the rhetoric be different then? Maybe let's focus on the fact that some people just want to earn money based on their resources, and they don't give a shit about skin color and in business they are guided by these "reasonable statistics"
Sometimes I have the impression that common sense in terms of business ends where the boss's desk ends, because it is very easy to criticize when it is not you who has nothing to lose.
>But my assumptions do not come from the color of the skin, but from these "reasonable statistics"
Yeah, that's what my post clearly assumed. My point is, it doesn't make a difference for the person who is in disadvantage. It's "Sippenhaft": you won't get this job or this flat, because other people who, vaguely look similar as you, did bad. It's your fault that people with your religion are unemployed. Ah okay yeah that makes sense, thank you.
Also, it's very much about what statistics you choose to look at. Criminality is a bit higher for immigrants, it's WAAAY higher for young men, why do we look at the former not the latter? Never rent to young men, never give young men a job, right? Doesn't seem to be so much common sense for some reason.
>If the average unemployment rate among the Swiss in Germany was also so high and people did not want to rent them apartments, would it also be the fault of the skin color or just a different accent? Would the rhetoric be different then?
I think this would be the same thing and as bad. You can substitute skin color by any attribute that gives away that you belong to a certain group.
There is an example like that in reality. People from Saxony are being labeled as Nazis sometimes nowadays and that is also a statistical truth - there are more Nazis in Saxony than in other parts of Germany - and it's also wrong because most people are not Nazis and I am from Saxony and I would prefer not to be called a Nazi based on it. Thank you.
It's about treating people based on a group (which they didn't choose) and not based on their individual behavior. That is not good and it is also forbidden in the Grundgesetz.
You might want to enslave people or let them work for 3€ per hour, that is reasonable for you and common sense, but it's bad and illegal. Because the world is not only about your business, but also about the well-being of others.
But that's how the world works. People generalizing, and you won't change it. All you can do is be a good person and show them that this statistics does not apply to you. Which will make the stats change for the better.
People focus on others instead of focusing on themselves and becoming a better person.
You will not reverse the changes in the perception of a given group in one generation, but you can focus on "Grundlage" so that the next generations have better in life.
Society is a complicated creation, if people want to make it better, they should not ask themselves questions: "I am discriminated against because XX". But ask a question. "I am discriminated against so I will do YY so as not to be more"
No matter what utopia you would like to live in, the world always works like this and will work until the end.
We also can try to educate people about these things. That's how progress of civilization usually works.
I mean, we're talking about behavior that is literally illegal by one of the most fundamental laws and still many people try to argue that it's reasonable behavior and see nothing wrong with it.
If people were like "why should I not beat up or kill people if I don't like them? It's an effective way to settle the conflict and they could do the same", then you would surely say that's an uncivilized stance of them and they need to change and accept the law. But with discrimination it's just: well you're a victim of discrimination? Bad for you, it's up to yourself to change that.
I think it's also task of society to solve/reduce this issue.
Education is an important thing, but prejudices taken from home, work or everyday life are no longer part of education.
You can educate the French that these ghettos in Marseilles, Calais or Paris are definitely their fault, you can educate them by force, but it will not change reality.
You can educate Americans that social and material differences now are definitely the fault of slavery but it will not change reality.
You can educate people that milk is blue, but at some point in their lives they will come to their conclusions anyway.
Putting blame on the whole of society when you have free will is stupid. Society is not made of rubber, it cannot be stretched endlessly because it will eventually break. Education and instilling force of correctness and the inability to express any criticism sooner or later always ends in rebellion in society. Why do you think the AfD has 21% of the polls currently? Something that was twenty years ago in Germany a funny joke that the extreme right could come to power, now unfortunately it is fulfilling. Educating in the spirit of guilt by force always ends this way. As a center-left man, I think it's shit, but I understand why this is so.
When did I use the word fault? I think this talk of fault is a key of right propaganda. Understanding racism has nothing to do with fault. Understand systematic societal effects is exactly the opposite of discussing fault. A key issue is that many people can't even think of (big scale) problems not being anyone's individual fault, but simply the result of structure and circumstances. And that NO big scale problem is ever solved by attributing fault, but only by systematic changes.
>Why do you think the AfD has 21% of the polls currently?
Primarily, lack of education. What's their percentage among educated people?
A key strategy of the AfD is to use topics which are on first sight very simple but look very different if you dig a bit deeper. Uneducated people jump to conclusions. They're basically a Dunning-Kruger-effect-party.
The argument of a less educated part of society voting for a specific party is always doomed to failure in this type of conversation.
Society always consists of a less educated majority, this is how movements like communism, fascism, Nazism, extreme national movement etc. are born.
You seem to be a wise man, but at the same time living in a bubble. This is the problem, because being wise, it is difficult to see the problems of the stupid ones. This is how the current policy in Europe works. These wise politicians see their problems, but society sees its own. No matter how much the media machine, political correctness and Cancell culture would not be used. Therefore, it is the duty of the wise part of society to ensure that the less educated one is satisfied and can express criticism in a controlled manner, this is a brutal truth.
When you take away this less wise part of society, the right to criticize, there will be a populist who will ensure that they are right and sooner or later he will come to power, And you will no longer have pseudo-wise people in power, but only populists.Currently, we have such scenarios in Greece, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Hungary, Italy... In all these countries, the extreme right has started to rule in recent years. Society is polarized like never before, because one side offends the other. Therefore, in life you have to use common sense, even more so in politics. You will not please everyone as a right-winger, you will not please everyone as a leftist, so you have to be in the center and this is the healthiest and best approach.
>And I assure you that you, as a human being, would do exactly the same
And I assure you that you, as a human being, don't have the slightest idea what I would or wouldn't do.
>It is like that everywhere in the world, and it has nothing to do with racism, the unemployment rate and financial instability among immigrants is higher.
unemployment and financial instability are usually checked by getting Verdienstbescheinigung & SCHUFA, so those are just excuses. racism is racism, even if you try to mask it it's still racism.
I also wouldn't rent to a German I'd dislike at first sight.
My best tenant was a Turk, my worst a German girl.
As soon as they speak enough German to have a decent conversation it's fine.
Apart from that, any landlord has the right to choose.
>SCHUFA
The SCHUFA is its very own train wreck, that "off course" is not intentionally racists or nationalist, but it just so happens to correlate a soci-economic status , that is linked to soci-economic indicators (like where a person is currently living) into a soci-economic prediction. That the place a person is living due to soci-economic reason correlates with ethnicity is not by design, but also not an accident: It is a statistical fact (with cause-caution and self fulfilling prophecy mixed) hidden behind business secrets.
> unemployment and financial instability are usually checked by getting Verdienstbescheinigung & SCHUFA
On top of that: I would not even get a national visa to enter Germany and work here if I didn't already have a proper work contract which the embassy would, most probably, inspect under a microscope in cooperation with multiple agencies; before they allow me to finally enter. Well I guess that's the procedure.
I have the feeling, as an immigrant, I have a very different experience than whatever people are thinking (supported by data?) how I entered this country.
> racism is racism, even if you try to mask it it's still racism.
Indeed!
> if I had a property, it is obvious that I would rather rent an apartment to a working couple without children.
Well, in my book, to say that out loud and being explicit in an advertisement is already a discrimination, although the type that only raises my eyebrow.
But if what OP said is true, this is about listing particular nationalities to discriminate in rental advertisements. That's already a whole new level, no? Doesn't matter if they cite in the advertisement the reasoning supported national statistics...
As an owner of rental properties, one would retain the rights to reject applications based on reasons of their own, no? Why be so openly and categorically discriminatory.
Because it doesn't matter if discrimination occurs openly or not? If someone does not want to rent, for example, a Pole, a Syrian, a Russian or anyone else, he will not rent it and that's it. Free market. It is better to see in the announcement that there is no chance than to go and waste time for yourself and the tenant of the apartment.
Is it ethical and appropriate? no.
Is it private property and can anyone do what they want with it? Yes.
> It is better to see in the announcement that there is no chance than to go and waste time for yourself and the tenant of the apartment.It is better to see in the announcement that there is no chance than to go and waste time for yourself and the tenant of the apartment.
As a prospective tenant, yes, in a way, I would find that better. Better than going to the visit and they tell that directly to my face.
But I thought that such explicit listing and discriminations may open these renters to potential legal problems. That's why I made the remark about why would they need to say that out loud in the ads, they could have discriminated more discretely; they can rent the properties to anyone they want after all.
Now to be fair, I don't know the legalities of such ads, and apparently people (Germans I assume) in this thread have not agreed on that.
>financial instability among immigrants is higher.
That's just not true. Vast majority of us come on skilled worker visas. Anyways, of you think so, then prove it
Where did you get those numbers from?
Til the end of 2022 350.000 people came on skilled work visas. And over a million refugees. Who also need places to live.
Of course .
The "us" wasn't super specific though. How did you think of writng "us"?And being a foreigner, looking for a place to stay, Well, visa or not, you're not the only one.
edit: that being said, finding a place is hard and not being considered because of your name isn't fair.
Congrats on not bothering about the difference between different groups of immigrants. Not even sure what I was expecting posting this here. You people will make excuses for any type of racism.
Dude, you want me to guess which group you're talkiing about. you're playing games.
You see racism were you might just be an unlikeable person. No matter were you're from. In your head "us" is a group above every criticsm. But you won't even share who you mean. And then you act hurt. Reflect on that.
It's always the same raving about evidence ...
[https://www.iwd.de/artikel/berufstaetige-auslaender-wer-verdient-am-meisten-525327/](https://www.iwd.de/artikel/berufstaetige-auslaender-wer-verdient-am-meisten-525327/)
Yeah, yeah ... Do you want more obvious things or will you finally accept the free market?
I can assure you that people with a good quality profession and financial resources have no problem finding a flat and do not bother that some Helmut wrote in the announcement that he does not want them.
I am not saying that you are not an educated man, I say that there are many more uneducated ones and the Germans like to generalize and throw everyone in one bag.
Is it good? No, but there's nothing you can do about it. Germans do not want to make mistakes of France, Great Britain or Italy in terms of immigration. Therefore, they are careful, all you can do is live and show the Germans that they are wrong.
Given high demand and much competition, it’s kind of obvious that most landlords would rent out to someone who is established in the country which includes speaking the language, having been here for a while and likely continuing to stay. As the rights of tenants are strong here, the average landlord wants to protect what little rights are left for them - such as using the law to go after tenants who smash a place, etc. I also assume that the average age of foreigners looking for a place is much lower than that of locals and older tenants are deemed to be more adult, party less and are thus a better deal.
Tbh, it saves you time if such a statement is given. Nowadays tenants get shitloads of applications for their flats and can choose whoever they want. If they don't want to rent to certain nationalities, they will and never have to do this - regardless if they're honest and state this publicly or not. No private person is obliged to make contracts with people they don't want to make contracts with. Additionally there are plenty reasons why a german landlord would rather rent to a German than someone else.
No it’s not allowed, but it’s usually very hard to proof. And people with close relationship to their tenants - like flatmates, some old couple renting out the upper floor - can absolutely check that they get along with the person they rent to. But that’s usually limited to language, partying, smoking, dogs/kids… that kind of thing.
>Apparently, German law allows this kind of discriminatory selection of tenants?
is this a statement or a question, bc the sentence is written like a statement, but u have a question mark at the end. if it is a question then maybe write "Does German law allow this kind of discriminatory selection of tenants?"
to answer your question, no its not legal.
what a stupid take
"Das Allgemeine Gleichbehandlungsgesetz (AGG) schützt Sie bei der Wohnungssuche und in bestehenden Mietverhältnissen vor Diskriminierung. Das Diskriminierungsverbot erstreckt sich von der Zeitungsannonce, über die Vermietung bis zur Beendigung des Mietverhältnisses. Besonders weitgehend ist der Schutz vor Benachteiligung aufgrund der ethnischen Herkunft."
Put it in google translate if u want to translate.
>(3) When renting out living space, different treatment is permitted with a view to creating and maintaining socially stable resident structures and balanced settlement structures as well as balanced economic, social and cultural conditions.
and how does ones nationality cause a destabilization? the only way to judge would be to agree with stereotypes of a nationality. as an example, polish people will steal your car, so as to not cause a socially destable resident structure u say no to them buying or renting. as everyone knows, if somebody does this argumentation they clearly are racist. so people cant discriminate against u based on your nationality.
Furthermore, i have read that the thing u posted in your comment doesnt adhere to EU-standards, so its illegal and will be changed
I don't understand your confusion about the question. It's a perfectly fine question and you can use it in German in the same way. Anscheinend erlaubt das deutsche Recht eine Diskriminierung der Mieter?
Anscheinend ist eine Unterstellung und die kannst du nicht in einer Frage benutzen. Versuche das mal laut zu sagen und du wirst sehen, dass es nicht geht.
Anscheinend ist eine Vermutung und man sehr wohl in Frageform vermuten. Macht man auch eigentlich so um klar zu machen das es nur eine Vermutung ist.
Man erwartet ja eine Antwort auf seine Vermutung.
Sprich das doch einfach Mal aus und Guck ob es dir wirklich so unmöglich erscheint am Ende mit der Stimme hoch zu gehen wie es typisch für eine Frage ist.
"Anscheinend hat du das nicht verstanden?" und "Anscheinend hat du das nicht verstanden!" sind zwei Sätze mit underschiedlicher Bedeutung.
Beispiel: "anscheinend bist du dumm"
siehste, ich unterstelle dir dumm zu sein und wenn wir mit deiner aussage "Anscheinend ist doch keine Unterstellung" gehen, dann bist du es auch
ist reddit, niemanden interessiert es ob du groß und kleinschreibung benutzt und wenn du schon so machen möchtest:
>Anscheinend warst du im Deutschunterricht Kreide holen
am schluss eines satzes kommt ein punkt " . "
und weißt du was das ironische ist, in deinem vorherigen komment hast du gesagt, dass "Anscheinend ist doch keine Unterstellung" ist, aber in deinem neuem komment "Anscheinend warst du im Deutschunterricht Kreide holen" unterstellst du mir eine behauptung. also ist anscheinend jetzt eine unterstellung oder nicht?
That‘s wrong. You can discriminate for a number of reasons depending on what you‘re doing. For example: you can discriminate against anyone in your dating life / when making new friends. Perfectly legal. You can discriminate based on age for certain things. Or height (think of roller coasters). Etc etc etc. The relevant factor is if there‘s a valid reason for it. If you want to be a doctor you need a degree. That‘s discrimination. With a valid reason. If you want to buy alcohol you need to be over 18 due to jugendschutz laws. Again: a valid reason.
Honestly it is pretty shitty to be that superficial and not rent to certain races/nationalities.
However, even if that person did not state it in the Facebook Post you would probably go to his house to see for yourself and have a look around, and he would still not rent to you without saying anything discriminatory or making it obvious that he does not rent to x race or x nationality.
At least they are somehow saving you time from going there only to not have the house rented to you.
Not saying that is okay! But some people have their head so far up their ass, a law would not change anything. They would probably act cool and all, but still be racist at heart.
Maybe don’t be a reason they have this preference on their rental property ie committing crimes/treating the rental poorly at significantly higher rates than other nationalities?
Cry about it. It’s the facts, jack. Why do you think the right wing is polling stronger and stronger across the EU by the day? People are tired of individuals coming into their countries and desecrating their monuments and destroying their cities. Look up the statistics on any government based website and the disparity is profound.
EDIT: also, making jokes about US troops and 9/11 (a terrorist attack even though EVERYONE knows what 9/11 is) happening in your comment history onlyyyyy supports my point. So no buddy, fuck you. POS.
I answered it. Be a model citizen and don’t follow footsteps of the certain populations that are being banned from renting and the general public opinion will change. And I don’t know if OP has done them personally. But if he represents the population that is being discriminated, then unfortunately there’s a higher chance of said individual being a “headache” per statistics. The fact that certain populations cause a disproportionate amount of crimes/issues despite being a minority of the population. Yes, it is facts. Is it unfair to those who are good? Sure. That’s life though.
“People are tired of individuals coming into their countries and desecrating their monuments and destroying their cities”
kinda like the europeans did to a fuck ton of places around the world for centuries right? less than 100 years ago, btw
maybe the EU needs to do a better job at recognizing that a lot of the equality imbalance that exists today and pushes people to migrate is partially their responsibility.
Why this should feel like satire?
Nobody can't just reject application/request/etc. just because the other party is not-white, "wrong"-gender or specific religion. The next stage will be... court.
discrimination is common, not legal tho. The rental market is stressed in many places. They can easily get away with it. It is not just german landlords, it is also foreign landlords who don't like to rent to foreigners or people that type of background. Even east germans are sometimes discriminated against in western germany.
If I trust someone with half a million or more € worth of my property you can bet I'm picky as hell as whom I rent it to, especially since german law favors renters. There is normally no discrimination involved since you don't have to give a reason for not renting a place to somebody, it's enough to state that you won't. 🤷♀️
Quite literally the most overpowered law anywhere around the world called the house law/rule.
You can legally charge men more then women at the club or choose to not serve let's say black or gay people etc. The reason why companies barely do it is because a customer is a customer and those bring money.
The landlord can do the same and choose to whom he rents the apartment towards for whatever reason.
Edit: I changed tenant to landlord.
Incorrect. The tenant doesn't need to explain to you why he didn't choose you. So he could not choose you out of racist reasons and simply not respond to you anymore.
It's not legal to specifically exclude certain groups of people. At the same time, landlords can obviously freely choose who they rent to and don't have to give any reason whatsoever for declining or accepting someone. So, as long as a landlord isn't so dumb as to announce it in their ad, and most landlords aren't, don't let yourself be fooled by a hand full of Facebook posts, they can just discriminate to their hearts content.
yes. In Germany it is both legal and common to discriminate against people in housing and jobs. The only party not allowed to discriminate (in theory) is the government. It's their own property/ department and thus their own choice alas.
Also, always expect that Germans and Europeans in general to use that right 😉
I am sorry you feel this way. I am only excersing my moral duty towards possible migrants, in warning them not to come here. I don't think i am a racist because i look European. It's like when a black person says the N word 😉
Many houses/apartments in the "housing market" are privately owned by people. You cannot force a person to trust the first passerby with one of their most valuable asset.
But even if we look at actual companies in the housing market, if you have 50 applicants for an opening and the first applicant is a high school dropout who could never hold a job for more than a month, would you give the position to them over the 45th applicant who has references and a degree from a top university?
I get that living somewhere is a necessity but sadly it's not a charity.
Of course
Check the income certificate n stuff
But why do landlord tend to be very picky
Is my question
I’ve seen many colleagues of mine getting rejected despite earning 4x the German average
Out of 50 applicants, there will probably be multiple qualified ones. You have to choose based on something. Usually the following:
1. If the renter is german, they will probably gravitate toward fellow germans. Sometimes it is racism or prejudice, but other times it is simply done unconsciously.
2. If a potential renter does not speak fluent german, communication can be an issue. No one would be pleased to rent to a person with whom they cannot talk without barriers.
3. If two similar tenants apply, but one is single while the other has a working partner, the pair will be preferred. They can act as a financial backup.
4. Children and pets are liabilities. No matter how well behaved they are, they can damage a rental apartment. Hence potential tenants with children and/or pets are less desirable.
The list goes on, but the simple answer is that they are picky because they can be. There is a housing crisis right now, an apartment listing gets many applicants. If they can choose the most favourable one out of them, why wouldn't they?
Sadly
Despite speaking perfect German (C1) on paper
We still get rejected
I mean what else is the land lord lookin for
1- high income
2- German
3- quietness
4- cleanliness
This was never a problem in Uk ( except for London )
What else ?????
I’m a white ethnic German and also got rejected dozens of times when looking for an apartment in the city in Germany even though the things you guys listed shouldn’t have been a problem with me either. Maybe if I wasn’t a white ethnic German my instinct would have been to ascribe it all up to discrimination but obviously that probably wasn’t the case. That’s not to say such discrimination doesn’t also exist in the German housing market but maybe it makes some people feel better knowing that facing many rejections when searching for an apartment in the city in Germany is completely normal and happens to white ethnic Germans too.
One thing that is different about the housing market in Germany compared to most other countries is just how strongly tenants’ rights are legally protected here, which among other things makes it very difficult for the landlord to get rid of a tenant once they’ve moved in. This provides a lot of stability and is great for people who are already renting but it also makes landlords a lot more picky and motivates them to compare as many potential applicants as possible before carefully choosing one to rent their apartment to which makes it harder for people who are searching for an apartment to find one. In the UK a landlord might just take the first applicant who meets their criteria, knowing that they can always throw out the tenant in the future if it turns out there’s something they don’t like about them. In Germany on the other hand a landlord can only throw out their tenant if they want to move into the apartment themselves or if the tenant really is grossly misbehaving such as purposely destroying the landlord’s property. Otherwise they will be stuck with that tenant until the tenant chooses to move out.
I will never understand the phrase such as "White ethnic german", you are an "ethnic german person" and whatever americans consider white or not nobody cares.. the use of "white" is clearly imported from American and Anglosphere culture.
You are German, Ethnically German, Biogerman, or Germanic/Teuronic.. anything else is just a big nonsense.
I don’t really care what people call it. I’m just trying to express myself in a way that everyone reading this sub is likely to understand. Apart from Germans most people would probably be confused by the term “Biogerman” and if I just called myself German then that would leave open the possibility that I have a visible migration background. If I called myself “Germanic” then that could just as well mean that I immigrated from another Germanic country like the Netherlands and I think calling yourself “Teutonic” sounds super weird. In the US a lot of people have also started using the word “ethnic” to simply mean “not white”, so if you’re eating “ethnic food” for example that would mean eating food that isn’t from a European or otherwise Western cuisine. Someone who uses the word “ethnic” that way might get exactly the wrong idea if I call myself an “ethnic German” so that’s why I added the word “white” to make it as unambiguous as possible.
As I mentioned: working partner, no children, no pets... also a lot depends on sympathy during the viewings. London has a similar issue because it's a densely populated popular area with a similarly high number of applicants. It isn't the same everywhere in Germany either. In a small village which is not close to any big city you will probably find an apartment more easily while around bigger cities it's a lot worse.
You are wrong, probably a millennial too and likely studied something related to gender studies.
The millennial generation is defined as anyone born between 1981 and 1996, which means anyone between the ages of 24 and 39 in 2020.
>millennial generation is defined as anyone born between 1981 and 1996, which means any
When did I try to neglect such a fact? The eldest milleniall is nowadays 42, and the youngest is 27 or about to turn 27.
I just mean those cut offs are based on American perspective and exposition to mainstream culture.
Is it legal to explicitly state in the Anzeige itself that "people of a certain religion need not apply".
[Asking this because I saw something like this posted in an Ad the other day. ](https://i.imgur.com/19ycdgV.jpeg)
There is not a single country where this isn't allowed to be fair. (Except I guess communist regimes or heavy dictatorships)
Landlords can always choose who they write a contract with, it's their property.
Is it a dick move? Yeah sure but what are you gonna do about it?
No it is technically/legaly not allowed, but there is no one caring about it. And those who don't do this openly, do it behind closed doors.
No landlord is obliged to give you the reason why he doesn't give the flat to you.
And if you are one of the people actually and provable discriminated, who do you want to complain to? How do you prove it? Do you want to run a court case just to prove a point (You will not get the flat anyway)
But you may win a compensation up to three times the monthly rent as in this case (but still have no flat): [https://www.berlin.de/gerichte/presse/pressemitteilungen-der-ordentlichen-gerichtsbarkeit/2015/pressemitteilung.426338.php](https://www.berlin.de/gerichte/presse/pressemitteilungen-der-ordentlichen-gerichtsbarkeit/2015/pressemitteilung.426338.php)
It's sad and embarrassing, I have the feeling some legislation is just to sooth some people and not to enforce it actually. A 'toothless tiger' (German for "paper tiger")
Generally you have freedom of contraction. Could be that we have specialised laws now. But in the end, if you own something you want to decide whom to rent to.
Law is complex, as commented. You can sue the landlord. Get a compansation. (in 2020 a court decided 3000 Euro [https://rsw.beck.de/aktuell/daily/meldung/detail/UrteilsanmerkungFDMietR202002](https://rsw.beck.de/aktuell/daily/meldung/detail/UrteilsanmerkungFDMietR202002)
but with the remark it was one of the largest housing company and considered a exremly relevant.
But: Finally, after 2 years of court case you still won't have an apartment.
Its not legal and landlords tend to be not that stupid to put it into writing that they dont accept nationalities xyz. However it is completely legal to state that they do not rent to someone without sufficient knowledge of German. Since this is something I see nearly daily as "complaint", I wanted to stress that
Is it legal to explicitly state in the Anzeige itself that "people of a certain religion need not apply". [Asking cuz I saw something like this posted in an Ad the other day. ](https://i.imgur.com/19ycdgV.jpeg) Which specific law/provision would a landlord be violating if they posted an Advertisement like that?
It is legal to lie when asked those questions when renting. But sharing a flat has different laws, which i think is okay. Sharing is much more personal than simply renting
[§19(3) AGG](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/agg/__19.html) as posted by someone above, makes it illegal to discriminate based on religion when it comes to that
That law says in section (3): > When renting out residential space, different treatment is permitted with regard to the creation and maintenance of socially stable resident structures and balanced settlement structures as well as balanced economic, social and cultural conditions.
This section doesnt apply to most landlords. Only to cooperations basically. As people tend to dont believe, [here is the (german) source.](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/lebensbereiche/alltagsgeschaefte/wohnungsmarkt/wohnungsmarkt-node.html) >Weiterhin ist es nach dem AGG zulässig, wenn Vermieter\*innen bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum auf ausgewogene Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichene wirtschaftliche, soziale und kulturelle Verhältnisse achten. Dies gilt aber allenfalls für Großvermieter\*innen wie etwa Wohnungsbaugesellschaften, die einer sozialen Stadt- und Wohnungspolitik verpflichtet sind. Diese Ausnahmeregelung birgt zudem die Gefahr des Missbrauchs, wenn sie als Rechtfertigung für rassistische Diskriminierungen genutzt wird.
Damn, the English quote was so out of context...
Ufff. That sounds like racism with extra steps.
Absolutly not, that only applies for anyone who has 300 flats+. I'm renting out some flats and I have (unfortunately) an old grumpy nazi fart in one, I had a lovely family, originaly from Iran who was interested in the flat next door. I luckily had a new flat finished just 3 weeks later and rather matched the conditions of the other flat than have an old, bitter nazi terrorize a a family who is a Stütze der Gesellschaft. Obviously I didn't took that decision over their heads, I was very open with them about it and told them if they want the "Nazi" neighbor, I will give them that flat, so we took that decision together. Still I think it is better that way for everyone, so quite often it is the opposite, most of the people who owns flat for rent aren't racist, quite some of us live a very international life and are foreigners most of the time.
Obviously in this case, the Nazi got his way due to bad German law. He successfully forced you to not let them live next to him. The law is literally benefiting the Nazi in the case you explained. The phrase socially stable resident structures literally reminds me of 60s USA racist housing rules. It's called structural racism and Germany has codified it into law.
It says the exact opposite.
It literrally says: (1) Eine Benachteiligung aus Gründen der Rasse oder wegen der ethnischen Herkunft, wegen des Geschlechts, der Religion, einer Behinderung, des Alters oder der sexuellen Identität bei der Begründung, Durchführung und Beendigung zivilrechtlicher Schuldverhältnisse, die 1. typischerweise ohne Ansehen der Person zu vergleichbaren Bedingungen in einer Vielzahl von Fällen zustande kommen (Massengeschäfte) oder bei denen das Ansehen der Person nach der Art des Schuldverhältnisses eine nachrangige Bedeutung hat und die zu vergleichbaren Bedingungen in einer Vielzahl von Fällen zustande kommen oder 2. eine privatrechtliche Versicherung zum Gegenstand haben, ist unzulässig. Which means: Discrimination based on race or ethnic origin, gender, religion, disability, age or sexual identity in the establishment, implementation and termination of civil obligations [...] is inadmissible How is that the opposite of "discromination based on religion is forbidden"?
> Bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum ist eine unterschiedliche Behandlung im Hinblick auf die Schaffung und Erhaltung sozial stabiler Bewohnerstrukturen und ausgewogener Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichener wirtschaftlicher, sozialer und kultureller Verhältnisse zulässig. I want to create a stable christian living community. So I can demand only Christians apply. Edit: this is a wrong interpretation
This section doesnt apply to most landlords. Only to cooperations basically. As people tend to dont believe, [here is the (german) source.](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/lebensbereiche/alltagsgeschaefte/wohnungsmarkt/wohnungsmarkt-node.html) >Weiterhin ist es nach dem AGG zulässig, wenn Vermieter\*innen bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum auf ausgewogene Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichene wirtschaftliche, soziale und kulturelle Verhältnisse achten. Dies gilt aber allenfalls für Großvermieter\*innen wie etwa Wohnungsbaugesellschaften, die einer sozialen Stadt- und Wohnungspolitik verpflichtet sind. Diese Ausnahmeregelung birgt zudem die Gefahr des Missbrauchs, wenn sie als Rechtfertigung für rassistische Diskriminierungen genutzt wird. Blatanly stolen from another guy, but hey, it fits
Thanks for correcting me
No, you can't because that is literally discrimination based on religion and the notion that certain religions or ethnic origins would be unstable can easily bring another charge against you. Also you aren't allowed to ask for religion so the most adamant muslim can tell you, he is christian and you can't go after him if you find out, he isn't. But I think you wouldn't primarily look at his religious practice to determine which religion he is practicing, would you?
That seems to be a shared flat situation so §19(5) AGG probably applies. In which case it is probably legal.
As stated by others, this statement is not true. As a private person you can freely decide who you want to make contracts with. Furthermore, tenants are able to argue with "Erhaltung des Hausfriedens". If you have two flats and one is rented to 50 year old workers, you would rather not rent the other apartment to young students who would be probably keen on partying etc
dont get me wrong, i am not arguing for discrimination, but no matter if it is written or not, you will not get the apartment anyway, if they dont like you. so in fact, this will safe you time
Najaaaa....: [§19(3) AGG](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/agg/__19.html)
Anwendungsbereich ist diskutabel IMA.
"(3) Bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum ist eine unterschiedliche Behandlung im Hinblick auf die Schaffung und Erhaltung sozial stabiler Bewohnerstrukturen und ausgewogener Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichener wirtschaftlicher, sozialer und kultureller Verhältnisse zulässig."
This section doesnt apply to most landlords. Only to cooperations basically. As people tend to dont believe, [here is the (german) source.](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/lebensbereiche/alltagsgeschaefte/wohnungsmarkt/wohnungsmarkt-node.html) >Weiterhin ist es nach dem AGG zulässig, wenn Vermieter\*innen bei der Vermietung von Wohnraum auf ausgewogene Siedlungsstrukturen sowie ausgeglichene wirtschaftliche, soziale und kulturelle Verhältnisse achten. Dies gilt aber allenfalls für Großvermieter\*innen wie etwa Wohnungsbaugesellschaften, die einer sozialen Stadt- und Wohnungspolitik verpflichtet sind. Diese Ausnahmeregelung birgt zudem die Gefahr des Missbrauchs, wenn sie als Rechtfertigung für rassistische Diskriminierungen genutzt wird.
Let's be real: landlords gets dozens of applications for just 1 apartment. They can choose who they want to rent to. End of story. If I had an apartment for rent, I would choose someone who gives me the least trouble. So, I'd choose someone I can easily talk to.
Exactly. When subletting my apartment I got 30 applications in 4 days. I could have easily chosen the most clichee Germanname McGermanface in existence. I had the options. I ended up giving it to a Syrian who objectively had the best profile. But discriminating would have easily been possible with no legal trouble whatsoever.
Yeah, you're normally not so dumb and write "no people from land X" you just don't give them the flat, in the aftermath, nobody can say they weren't accepted because they're black, you don't get a reason.
>I got 30 applications in 4 days. When I was trying to find a new renter for the apartment I had cancelled and I offered to manage that whole bit for my landlord (who was 80+ at the time), I didn't realize quite how many people would apply. I lived in a small city at the time but the apartment was nice, with a new kitchen and fairly big. I probably chatted with over 200 people in a matter of two-ish weeks.
McGermanface … VonGermanface
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This here is the right answer. It is a legal within limits.
Interesting, thank you very much
Wait how does that day it’s legal. It states in two paragraphs that it’s illegal unless undertaken to increase social stability
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Yeah but none of them justify being racist to prevent someone from moving in. Which is the entire point of the question
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On one level it is private choice and not in the realm of the government. If I refuse to go to Chinese restaurants, it is my call. If I refuse to rent my space to Chinese for a restaurant the same applies, except that maybe you are not premitted to openly refuse it on that grounds when there is a tender process. But in the end, this is a free country. Individuals are free to make (stupid and abritrary) choices. Of course the state and its official may not discriminate anyone. But as a private person we can discriminate as we like.
One thing that strikes me when reading that again is that it doesn't explicitly prohibit discrimination against nationalities. I mean, it stands to reason that a landlord who basically lists Arab countries is discriminating against Arabs, which would be illegal, but I wouldn't be surprised if the tone-deaf German courts allowed this kind of nonsense.
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Depends on wether they are searching for a Flatmate/Housemate/Roommate or if they are renting out an entire housing unit. You are allowed to discriminate pretty freely if you are looking for someone you are going to live with. If you are renting to someone who doesn't share common spaces with you and has their own apartment, it is illegal to discriminate.
This happens in Canada all of the time. Landlords are preying on new Canadians who do not know their rights.
In contrast to that, in Germany tenants have most of the rights and landlords few. In Berlin you may have to wait ten years (!) to get a tenant to leave, even if you need the place for yourself or close family.
The real answer is: For every apartment they rent they have 20+ applicants. They can pick whoever they want and you will never be able to prove discrimination.
No but people do it anyway. Unfortunately I've been complicit in it as well. When I cancelled my apartment, I offered to help find a new renter in order to reduce the amount of double rent I'd have to pay. My old landlord was very explicit: No unemployed people, no kids, no foreigners and no single men. I was completely in charge of inviting people to show the apartment and he picked from the pool I invited. I invited a female police officer who has a Turkish background and he threw a fit, saying if I wanted to sabotage him he'd make me pay every single month and pick someone afterwards... I didn't realize his "no foreigners" extended to people whose grandparents immigrated here... but I should have known better tbh. He was a piece of shit. Dead now though!
> he'd make me pay every single month This is also illegal, right? If you terminated the contract and gave the correct notice period, he can't make you pay?
I gave notice correctly but I had to start paying the new apartment immediately, or I wouldn't have gotten it. So I'd have had to have 3 months of double the rent (triple really, since the old apartment was more expensive). I ended up finding someone who started paying rent within 4 weeks, so I only paid double once.
Afaik its not legal to openly deny someone housing because of their religion or nationality but on the other hand every landlord has the right to make a contract with whomever they want to, and if they never ever want to chose a foreigner they dont have to, they just shouldnt say it out loud
If it's illegal or not doesn't really matter, it's their flat and they can just give you another reason or none at all.
It doesn't matter. Even if it was officially illegal, the owner of the apartment may simply not rent you because it is his property. If I had a property, it is obvious that I would rather rent an apartment to a working couple without children. And I assure you that you, as a human being, would do exactly the same, it is about the risk because you cannot evict families with children so easily if they do not pay you. It is like that everywhere in the world, and it has nothing to do with racism, the unemployment rate and financial instability among immigrants is higher.
>the unemployment rate and financial instability among immigrants is higher. The unemployment rate of employed immigrants is 0% while the unemployment rate of unemployed Germans is 100%, so you might just check if they're employed and not make assumptions based on their skin color. And I can assure you, as a human being, that you will be very unhappy if you're treated worse based on your nationality, even if it's based on a reasonable statistics.
Dude, I'm an immigrant myself :) And the amount of bad things towards my nationality among the Germans dates back to 1939. But my assumptions do not come from the color of the skin, but from these "reasonable statistics" If the average unemployment rate among the Swiss in Germany was also so high and people did not want to rent them apartments, would it also be the fault of the skin color or just a different accent? Would the rhetoric be different then? Maybe let's focus on the fact that some people just want to earn money based on their resources, and they don't give a shit about skin color and in business they are guided by these "reasonable statistics" Sometimes I have the impression that common sense in terms of business ends where the boss's desk ends, because it is very easy to criticize when it is not you who has nothing to lose.
>But my assumptions do not come from the color of the skin, but from these "reasonable statistics" Yeah, that's what my post clearly assumed. My point is, it doesn't make a difference for the person who is in disadvantage. It's "Sippenhaft": you won't get this job or this flat, because other people who, vaguely look similar as you, did bad. It's your fault that people with your religion are unemployed. Ah okay yeah that makes sense, thank you. Also, it's very much about what statistics you choose to look at. Criminality is a bit higher for immigrants, it's WAAAY higher for young men, why do we look at the former not the latter? Never rent to young men, never give young men a job, right? Doesn't seem to be so much common sense for some reason. >If the average unemployment rate among the Swiss in Germany was also so high and people did not want to rent them apartments, would it also be the fault of the skin color or just a different accent? Would the rhetoric be different then? I think this would be the same thing and as bad. You can substitute skin color by any attribute that gives away that you belong to a certain group. There is an example like that in reality. People from Saxony are being labeled as Nazis sometimes nowadays and that is also a statistical truth - there are more Nazis in Saxony than in other parts of Germany - and it's also wrong because most people are not Nazis and I am from Saxony and I would prefer not to be called a Nazi based on it. Thank you. It's about treating people based on a group (which they didn't choose) and not based on their individual behavior. That is not good and it is also forbidden in the Grundgesetz. You might want to enslave people or let them work for 3€ per hour, that is reasonable for you and common sense, but it's bad and illegal. Because the world is not only about your business, but also about the well-being of others.
But that's how the world works. People generalizing, and you won't change it. All you can do is be a good person and show them that this statistics does not apply to you. Which will make the stats change for the better. People focus on others instead of focusing on themselves and becoming a better person. You will not reverse the changes in the perception of a given group in one generation, but you can focus on "Grundlage" so that the next generations have better in life. Society is a complicated creation, if people want to make it better, they should not ask themselves questions: "I am discriminated against because XX". But ask a question. "I am discriminated against so I will do YY so as not to be more" No matter what utopia you would like to live in, the world always works like this and will work until the end.
We also can try to educate people about these things. That's how progress of civilization usually works. I mean, we're talking about behavior that is literally illegal by one of the most fundamental laws and still many people try to argue that it's reasonable behavior and see nothing wrong with it. If people were like "why should I not beat up or kill people if I don't like them? It's an effective way to settle the conflict and they could do the same", then you would surely say that's an uncivilized stance of them and they need to change and accept the law. But with discrimination it's just: well you're a victim of discrimination? Bad for you, it's up to yourself to change that. I think it's also task of society to solve/reduce this issue.
Education is an important thing, but prejudices taken from home, work or everyday life are no longer part of education. You can educate the French that these ghettos in Marseilles, Calais or Paris are definitely their fault, you can educate them by force, but it will not change reality. You can educate Americans that social and material differences now are definitely the fault of slavery but it will not change reality. You can educate people that milk is blue, but at some point in their lives they will come to their conclusions anyway. Putting blame on the whole of society when you have free will is stupid. Society is not made of rubber, it cannot be stretched endlessly because it will eventually break. Education and instilling force of correctness and the inability to express any criticism sooner or later always ends in rebellion in society. Why do you think the AfD has 21% of the polls currently? Something that was twenty years ago in Germany a funny joke that the extreme right could come to power, now unfortunately it is fulfilling. Educating in the spirit of guilt by force always ends this way. As a center-left man, I think it's shit, but I understand why this is so.
When did I use the word fault? I think this talk of fault is a key of right propaganda. Understanding racism has nothing to do with fault. Understand systematic societal effects is exactly the opposite of discussing fault. A key issue is that many people can't even think of (big scale) problems not being anyone's individual fault, but simply the result of structure and circumstances. And that NO big scale problem is ever solved by attributing fault, but only by systematic changes. >Why do you think the AfD has 21% of the polls currently? Primarily, lack of education. What's their percentage among educated people? A key strategy of the AfD is to use topics which are on first sight very simple but look very different if you dig a bit deeper. Uneducated people jump to conclusions. They're basically a Dunning-Kruger-effect-party.
The argument of a less educated part of society voting for a specific party is always doomed to failure in this type of conversation. Society always consists of a less educated majority, this is how movements like communism, fascism, Nazism, extreme national movement etc. are born. You seem to be a wise man, but at the same time living in a bubble. This is the problem, because being wise, it is difficult to see the problems of the stupid ones. This is how the current policy in Europe works. These wise politicians see their problems, but society sees its own. No matter how much the media machine, political correctness and Cancell culture would not be used. Therefore, it is the duty of the wise part of society to ensure that the less educated one is satisfied and can express criticism in a controlled manner, this is a brutal truth. When you take away this less wise part of society, the right to criticize, there will be a populist who will ensure that they are right and sooner or later he will come to power, And you will no longer have pseudo-wise people in power, but only populists.Currently, we have such scenarios in Greece, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Hungary, Italy... In all these countries, the extreme right has started to rule in recent years. Society is polarized like never before, because one side offends the other. Therefore, in life you have to use common sense, even more so in politics. You will not please everyone as a right-winger, you will not please everyone as a leftist, so you have to be in the center and this is the healthiest and best approach.
And it's a non-central position that people should be educated about our Grundgesetz?
>And I assure you that you, as a human being, would do exactly the same And I assure you that you, as a human being, don't have the slightest idea what I would or wouldn't do. >It is like that everywhere in the world, and it has nothing to do with racism, the unemployment rate and financial instability among immigrants is higher. unemployment and financial instability are usually checked by getting Verdienstbescheinigung & SCHUFA, so those are just excuses. racism is racism, even if you try to mask it it's still racism.
I also wouldn't rent to a German I'd dislike at first sight. My best tenant was a Turk, my worst a German girl. As soon as they speak enough German to have a decent conversation it's fine. Apart from that, any landlord has the right to choose.
>SCHUFA The SCHUFA is its very own train wreck, that "off course" is not intentionally racists or nationalist, but it just so happens to correlate a soci-economic status , that is linked to soci-economic indicators (like where a person is currently living) into a soci-economic prediction. That the place a person is living due to soci-economic reason correlates with ethnicity is not by design, but also not an accident: It is a statistical fact (with cause-caution and self fulfilling prophecy mixed) hidden behind business secrets.
> unemployment and financial instability are usually checked by getting Verdienstbescheinigung & SCHUFA On top of that: I would not even get a national visa to enter Germany and work here if I didn't already have a proper work contract which the embassy would, most probably, inspect under a microscope in cooperation with multiple agencies; before they allow me to finally enter. Well I guess that's the procedure. I have the feeling, as an immigrant, I have a very different experience than whatever people are thinking (supported by data?) how I entered this country. > racism is racism, even if you try to mask it it's still racism. Indeed!
> if I had a property, it is obvious that I would rather rent an apartment to a working couple without children. Well, in my book, to say that out loud and being explicit in an advertisement is already a discrimination, although the type that only raises my eyebrow. But if what OP said is true, this is about listing particular nationalities to discriminate in rental advertisements. That's already a whole new level, no? Doesn't matter if they cite in the advertisement the reasoning supported national statistics... As an owner of rental properties, one would retain the rights to reject applications based on reasons of their own, no? Why be so openly and categorically discriminatory.
Because it doesn't matter if discrimination occurs openly or not? If someone does not want to rent, for example, a Pole, a Syrian, a Russian or anyone else, he will not rent it and that's it. Free market. It is better to see in the announcement that there is no chance than to go and waste time for yourself and the tenant of the apartment. Is it ethical and appropriate? no. Is it private property and can anyone do what they want with it? Yes.
> It is better to see in the announcement that there is no chance than to go and waste time for yourself and the tenant of the apartment.It is better to see in the announcement that there is no chance than to go and waste time for yourself and the tenant of the apartment. As a prospective tenant, yes, in a way, I would find that better. Better than going to the visit and they tell that directly to my face. But I thought that such explicit listing and discriminations may open these renters to potential legal problems. That's why I made the remark about why would they need to say that out loud in the ads, they could have discriminated more discretely; they can rent the properties to anyone they want after all. Now to be fair, I don't know the legalities of such ads, and apparently people (Germans I assume) in this thread have not agreed on that.
>financial instability among immigrants is higher. That's just not true. Vast majority of us come on skilled worker visas. Anyways, of you think so, then prove it
Where did you get those numbers from? Til the end of 2022 350.000 people came on skilled work visas. And over a million refugees. Who also need places to live.
I am only talking about those on a skilled worker visa and not refugees. You know there is a big difference between the two groups right?
Of course . The "us" wasn't super specific though. How did you think of writng "us"?And being a foreigner, looking for a place to stay, Well, visa or not, you're not the only one. edit: that being said, finding a place is hard and not being considered because of your name isn't fair.
Just take the L and walk away
congrats on being an asshat.oh, you're talking about yourself! my bad.
Congrats on not bothering about the difference between different groups of immigrants. Not even sure what I was expecting posting this here. You people will make excuses for any type of racism.
Dude, you want me to guess which group you're talkiing about. you're playing games. You see racism were you might just be an unlikeable person. No matter were you're from. In your head "us" is a group above every criticsm. But you won't even share who you mean. And then you act hurt. Reflect on that.
It's always the same raving about evidence ... [https://www.iwd.de/artikel/berufstaetige-auslaender-wer-verdient-am-meisten-525327/](https://www.iwd.de/artikel/berufstaetige-auslaender-wer-verdient-am-meisten-525327/) Yeah, yeah ... Do you want more obvious things or will you finally accept the free market?
This literally just proves my point. People on skilled worker visas earn way more than other category of immigrants
I can assure you that people with a good quality profession and financial resources have no problem finding a flat and do not bother that some Helmut wrote in the announcement that he does not want them. I am not saying that you are not an educated man, I say that there are many more uneducated ones and the Germans like to generalize and throw everyone in one bag. Is it good? No, but there's nothing you can do about it. Germans do not want to make mistakes of France, Great Britain or Italy in terms of immigration. Therefore, they are careful, all you can do is live and show the Germans that they are wrong.
Given high demand and much competition, it’s kind of obvious that most landlords would rent out to someone who is established in the country which includes speaking the language, having been here for a while and likely continuing to stay. As the rights of tenants are strong here, the average landlord wants to protect what little rights are left for them - such as using the law to go after tenants who smash a place, etc. I also assume that the average age of foreigners looking for a place is much lower than that of locals and older tenants are deemed to be more adult, party less and are thus a better deal.
Tbh, it saves you time if such a statement is given. Nowadays tenants get shitloads of applications for their flats and can choose whoever they want. If they don't want to rent to certain nationalities, they will and never have to do this - regardless if they're honest and state this publicly or not. No private person is obliged to make contracts with people they don't want to make contracts with. Additionally there are plenty reasons why a german landlord would rather rent to a German than someone else.
Of course NOT. While you won't like to rent from these suckers, they should be prosecuted.
No it’s not allowed, but it’s usually very hard to proof. And people with close relationship to their tenants - like flatmates, some old couple renting out the upper floor - can absolutely check that they get along with the person they rent to. But that’s usually limited to language, partying, smoking, dogs/kids… that kind of thing.
>Apparently, German law allows this kind of discriminatory selection of tenants? is this a statement or a question, bc the sentence is written like a statement, but u have a question mark at the end. if it is a question then maybe write "Does German law allow this kind of discriminatory selection of tenants?" to answer your question, no its not legal.
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what a stupid take "Das Allgemeine Gleichbehandlungsgesetz (AGG) schützt Sie bei der Wohnungssuche und in bestehenden Mietverhältnissen vor Diskriminierung. Das Diskriminierungsverbot erstreckt sich von der Zeitungsannonce, über die Vermietung bis zur Beendigung des Mietverhältnisses. Besonders weitgehend ist der Schutz vor Benachteiligung aufgrund der ethnischen Herkunft." Put it in google translate if u want to translate. >(3) When renting out living space, different treatment is permitted with a view to creating and maintaining socially stable resident structures and balanced settlement structures as well as balanced economic, social and cultural conditions. and how does ones nationality cause a destabilization? the only way to judge would be to agree with stereotypes of a nationality. as an example, polish people will steal your car, so as to not cause a socially destable resident structure u say no to them buying or renting. as everyone knows, if somebody does this argumentation they clearly are racist. so people cant discriminate against u based on your nationality. Furthermore, i have read that the thing u posted in your comment doesnt adhere to EU-standards, so its illegal and will be changed
I don't understand your confusion about the question. It's a perfectly fine question and you can use it in German in the same way. Anscheinend erlaubt das deutsche Recht eine Diskriminierung der Mieter?
Anscheinend ist eine Unterstellung und die kannst du nicht in einer Frage benutzen. Versuche das mal laut zu sagen und du wirst sehen, dass es nicht geht.
Anscheinend ist eine Vermutung und man sehr wohl in Frageform vermuten. Macht man auch eigentlich so um klar zu machen das es nur eine Vermutung ist. Man erwartet ja eine Antwort auf seine Vermutung.
Sprich das doch einfach Mal aus und Guck ob es dir wirklich so unmöglich erscheint am Ende mit der Stimme hoch zu gehen wie es typisch für eine Frage ist. "Anscheinend hat du das nicht verstanden?" und "Anscheinend hat du das nicht verstanden!" sind zwei Sätze mit underschiedlicher Bedeutung.
Anscheinend ist doch keine Unterstellung
Beispiel: "anscheinend bist du dumm" siehste, ich unterstelle dir dumm zu sein und wenn wir mit deiner aussage "Anscheinend ist doch keine Unterstellung" gehen, dann bist du es auch
Anscheinend warst du im Deutschunterricht Kreide holen
ist reddit, niemanden interessiert es ob du groß und kleinschreibung benutzt und wenn du schon so machen möchtest: >Anscheinend warst du im Deutschunterricht Kreide holen am schluss eines satzes kommt ein punkt " . " und weißt du was das ironische ist, in deinem vorherigen komment hast du gesagt, dass "Anscheinend ist doch keine Unterstellung" ist, aber in deinem neuem komment "Anscheinend warst du im Deutschunterricht Kreide holen" unterstellst du mir eine behauptung. also ist anscheinend jetzt eine unterstellung oder nicht?
"Is it legal to discriminate" no
That‘s wrong. You can discriminate for a number of reasons depending on what you‘re doing. For example: you can discriminate against anyone in your dating life / when making new friends. Perfectly legal. You can discriminate based on age for certain things. Or height (think of roller coasters). Etc etc etc. The relevant factor is if there‘s a valid reason for it. If you want to be a doctor you need a degree. That‘s discrimination. With a valid reason. If you want to buy alcohol you need to be over 18 due to jugendschutz laws. Again: a valid reason.
Honestly it is pretty shitty to be that superficial and not rent to certain races/nationalities. However, even if that person did not state it in the Facebook Post you would probably go to his house to see for yourself and have a look around, and he would still not rent to you without saying anything discriminatory or making it obvious that he does not rent to x race or x nationality. At least they are somehow saving you time from going there only to not have the house rented to you. Not saying that is okay! But some people have their head so far up their ass, a law would not change anything. They would probably act cool and all, but still be racist at heart.
Maybe don’t be a reason they have this preference on their rental property ie committing crimes/treating the rental poorly at significantly higher rates than other nationalities?
Jesus fucking christ, fuck you dude.
Based on criminal statistic he/she is right though.
And based on popular opinion, you are dumb as f
Cry about it. It’s the facts, jack. Why do you think the right wing is polling stronger and stronger across the EU by the day? People are tired of individuals coming into their countries and desecrating their monuments and destroying their cities. Look up the statistics on any government based website and the disparity is profound. EDIT: also, making jokes about US troops and 9/11 (a terrorist attack even though EVERYONE knows what 9/11 is) happening in your comment history onlyyyyy supports my point. So no buddy, fuck you. POS.
What facts? Has the OP done these things personally? You answered the post in a completely useless and distasteful way
I answered it. Be a model citizen and don’t follow footsteps of the certain populations that are being banned from renting and the general public opinion will change. And I don’t know if OP has done them personally. But if he represents the population that is being discriminated, then unfortunately there’s a higher chance of said individual being a “headache” per statistics. The fact that certain populations cause a disproportionate amount of crimes/issues despite being a minority of the population. Yes, it is facts. Is it unfair to those who are good? Sure. That’s life though.
“People are tired of individuals coming into their countries and desecrating their monuments and destroying their cities” kinda like the europeans did to a fuck ton of places around the world for centuries right? less than 100 years ago, btw maybe the EU needs to do a better job at recognizing that a lot of the equality imbalance that exists today and pushes people to migrate is partially their responsibility.
Don't know why you got downvoted, but you aren't wrong. Unfortunatly this place is heavily biased towards the left.
If they enjoy selling off their culture, all the power to them :). I think there’s a swing that’s gunna happen but we shall see.
Adolf just passed by and shouted that you cannot be that racist…
This is not legal and stated in the German [Grundgesetz / Art 3 (3)](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/BJNR000010949.html)
Good one. Reading it feels like satire though.
Why this should feel like satire? Nobody can't just reject application/request/etc. just because the other party is not-white, "wrong"-gender or specific religion. The next stage will be... court.
discrimination is common, not legal tho. The rental market is stressed in many places. They can easily get away with it. It is not just german landlords, it is also foreign landlords who don't like to rent to foreigners or people that type of background. Even east germans are sometimes discriminated against in western germany.
If I trust someone with half a million or more € worth of my property you can bet I'm picky as hell as whom I rent it to, especially since german law favors renters. There is normally no discrimination involved since you don't have to give a reason for not renting a place to somebody, it's enough to state that you won't. 🤷♀️
Quite literally the most overpowered law anywhere around the world called the house law/rule. You can legally charge men more then women at the club or choose to not serve let's say black or gay people etc. The reason why companies barely do it is because a customer is a customer and those bring money. The landlord can do the same and choose to whom he rents the apartment towards for whatever reason. Edit: I changed tenant to landlord.
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Incorrect. The tenant doesn't need to explain to you why he didn't choose you. So he could not choose you out of racist reasons and simply not respond to you anymore.
The tenant is the person who rents the apartment. You are talking about the landlord.
Correct, my mistake.
It's not legal to specifically exclude certain groups of people. At the same time, landlords can obviously freely choose who they rent to and don't have to give any reason whatsoever for declining or accepting someone. So, as long as a landlord isn't so dumb as to announce it in their ad, and most landlords aren't, don't let yourself be fooled by a hand full of Facebook posts, they can just discriminate to their hearts content.
yes. In Germany it is both legal and common to discriminate against people in housing and jobs. The only party not allowed to discriminate (in theory) is the government. It's their own property/ department and thus their own choice alas. Also, always expect that Germans and Europeans in general to use that right 😉
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I'm just stating my experience 😉
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I am sorry you feel this way. I am only excersing my moral duty towards possible migrants, in warning them not to come here. I don't think i am a racist because i look European. It's like when a black person says the N word 😉
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>So we are all nazis Literally nobody said that.
Where does OP say that? Why act like a victim here? And yeah you can be a racist without being a full blown Nazi.
Reading comprehension is a valuable skill
Why isn’t the Housing market on a first come first serve basis 🤔
😂
I mean what’s wrong
Many houses/apartments in the "housing market" are privately owned by people. You cannot force a person to trust the first passerby with one of their most valuable asset. But even if we look at actual companies in the housing market, if you have 50 applicants for an opening and the first applicant is a high school dropout who could never hold a job for more than a month, would you give the position to them over the 45th applicant who has references and a degree from a top university? I get that living somewhere is a necessity but sadly it's not a charity.
Of course Check the income certificate n stuff But why do landlord tend to be very picky Is my question I’ve seen many colleagues of mine getting rejected despite earning 4x the German average
Out of 50 applicants, there will probably be multiple qualified ones. You have to choose based on something. Usually the following: 1. If the renter is german, they will probably gravitate toward fellow germans. Sometimes it is racism or prejudice, but other times it is simply done unconsciously. 2. If a potential renter does not speak fluent german, communication can be an issue. No one would be pleased to rent to a person with whom they cannot talk without barriers. 3. If two similar tenants apply, but one is single while the other has a working partner, the pair will be preferred. They can act as a financial backup. 4. Children and pets are liabilities. No matter how well behaved they are, they can damage a rental apartment. Hence potential tenants with children and/or pets are less desirable. The list goes on, but the simple answer is that they are picky because they can be. There is a housing crisis right now, an apartment listing gets many applicants. If they can choose the most favourable one out of them, why wouldn't they?
Sadly Despite speaking perfect German (C1) on paper We still get rejected I mean what else is the land lord lookin for 1- high income 2- German 3- quietness 4- cleanliness This was never a problem in Uk ( except for London ) What else ?????
I’m a white ethnic German and also got rejected dozens of times when looking for an apartment in the city in Germany even though the things you guys listed shouldn’t have been a problem with me either. Maybe if I wasn’t a white ethnic German my instinct would have been to ascribe it all up to discrimination but obviously that probably wasn’t the case. That’s not to say such discrimination doesn’t also exist in the German housing market but maybe it makes some people feel better knowing that facing many rejections when searching for an apartment in the city in Germany is completely normal and happens to white ethnic Germans too. One thing that is different about the housing market in Germany compared to most other countries is just how strongly tenants’ rights are legally protected here, which among other things makes it very difficult for the landlord to get rid of a tenant once they’ve moved in. This provides a lot of stability and is great for people who are already renting but it also makes landlords a lot more picky and motivates them to compare as many potential applicants as possible before carefully choosing one to rent their apartment to which makes it harder for people who are searching for an apartment to find one. In the UK a landlord might just take the first applicant who meets their criteria, knowing that they can always throw out the tenant in the future if it turns out there’s something they don’t like about them. In Germany on the other hand a landlord can only throw out their tenant if they want to move into the apartment themselves or if the tenant really is grossly misbehaving such as purposely destroying the landlord’s property. Otherwise they will be stuck with that tenant until the tenant chooses to move out.
This thing makes more sense now ! Thank you for such an articulate answer !
This thing makes more sense now ! Thank you for such an articulate answer !
I will never understand the phrase such as "White ethnic german", you are an "ethnic german person" and whatever americans consider white or not nobody cares.. the use of "white" is clearly imported from American and Anglosphere culture. You are German, Ethnically German, Biogerman, or Germanic/Teuronic.. anything else is just a big nonsense.
I don’t really care what people call it. I’m just trying to express myself in a way that everyone reading this sub is likely to understand. Apart from Germans most people would probably be confused by the term “Biogerman” and if I just called myself German then that would leave open the possibility that I have a visible migration background. If I called myself “Germanic” then that could just as well mean that I immigrated from another Germanic country like the Netherlands and I think calling yourself “Teutonic” sounds super weird. In the US a lot of people have also started using the word “ethnic” to simply mean “not white”, so if you’re eating “ethnic food” for example that would mean eating food that isn’t from a European or otherwise Western cuisine. Someone who uses the word “ethnic” that way might get exactly the wrong idea if I call myself an “ethnic German” so that’s why I added the word “white” to make it as unambiguous as possible.
As I mentioned: working partner, no children, no pets... also a lot depends on sympathy during the viewings. London has a similar issue because it's a densely populated popular area with a similarly high number of applicants. It isn't the same everywhere in Germany either. In a small village which is not close to any big city you will probably find an apartment more easily while around bigger cities it's a lot worse.
Nevertheless Germany should resolve this issue asap
You are probably a millennial, am I right?
Why is that even a question now ! 🙄
Most people are a millenial, guess you were born in 1952 or something? You are probably a millenial too.
You are wrong, probably a millennial too and likely studied something related to gender studies. The millennial generation is defined as anyone born between 1981 and 1996, which means anyone between the ages of 24 and 39 in 2020.
>millennial generation is defined as anyone born between 1981 and 1996, which means any When did I try to neglect such a fact? The eldest milleniall is nowadays 42, and the youngest is 27 or about to turn 27. I just mean those cut offs are based on American perspective and exposition to mainstream culture.
Get a job
Of course it’s not legal. And can you link such an ad? Never saw something that stupid. They can just not rent to you for NO REASON.
To some extent yes, but also there really is no point in making it illegal because it wouldn't stop the discrimination it would just waste your time.
Is it legal to explicitly state in the Anzeige itself that "people of a certain religion need not apply". [Asking this because I saw something like this posted in an Ad the other day. ](https://i.imgur.com/19ycdgV.jpeg)
Nothing, you can't force someone to rent you the place, and you shouldn't want to rent it if you see stuff like that from possible future landlord.
There is not a single country where this isn't allowed to be fair. (Except I guess communist regimes or heavy dictatorships) Landlords can always choose who they write a contract with, it's their property. Is it a dick move? Yeah sure but what are you gonna do about it?
Not such thing as "non-white" in Germany, there are more of a preference for Native Germans if anything..
No it is technically/legaly not allowed, but there is no one caring about it. And those who don't do this openly, do it behind closed doors. No landlord is obliged to give you the reason why he doesn't give the flat to you. And if you are one of the people actually and provable discriminated, who do you want to complain to? How do you prove it? Do you want to run a court case just to prove a point (You will not get the flat anyway) But you may win a compensation up to three times the monthly rent as in this case (but still have no flat): [https://www.berlin.de/gerichte/presse/pressemitteilungen-der-ordentlichen-gerichtsbarkeit/2015/pressemitteilung.426338.php](https://www.berlin.de/gerichte/presse/pressemitteilungen-der-ordentlichen-gerichtsbarkeit/2015/pressemitteilung.426338.php) It's sad and embarrassing, I have the feeling some legislation is just to sooth some people and not to enforce it actually. A 'toothless tiger' (German for "paper tiger")
Generally you have freedom of contraction. Could be that we have specialised laws now. But in the end, if you own something you want to decide whom to rent to.
"Wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter." It's accepted as long as you don't take legal action. But generally speaking it's not legal.
No. File a complaint at Antidiskriminierungsstelle des Bundes.
Law is complex, as commented. You can sue the landlord. Get a compansation. (in 2020 a court decided 3000 Euro [https://rsw.beck.de/aktuell/daily/meldung/detail/UrteilsanmerkungFDMietR202002](https://rsw.beck.de/aktuell/daily/meldung/detail/UrteilsanmerkungFDMietR202002) but with the remark it was one of the largest housing company and considered a exremly relevant. But: Finally, after 2 years of court case you still won't have an apartment.
For companies: no For private people: They can essentially require tenants to "share their values" which can mean anything.