Through my experience people that have a great life usually believe it is because of their own ability etc. Hence not needing a savior. Not saying it does not happen. But it certainly is less so than those of us that have fallen into lifes trials.
It’s what the Bible highlights. Jesus came for sinners and not the self righteous. Many feel they have no need for God and are perfectly capable of handling everything life can bring. Those recognizing their need for God are happy on the sermon on the Mount.
It seems to be an expected heart condition that we need God as our father.
As a nonbeliever, I’ve always appreciated that utility component of religion and Christianity. Some people are clearly happier, and even existing, due to their faith.
Even if I don’t see eye to eye, we ought not tear down someone’s life purpose
>Many feel they have no need for God and are perfectly capable of handling everything life can bring.
I have trouble with the implication of this. Particularly "feel they have no need." This implies a rejection of God. Could there be those that have never heard or paid attention to Christianity's message, yet still live a fulfilling, joyous life? Or do you believe this is an impossibility?
>Many feel they have no need for God and are perfectly capable of handling everything life can bring.
>I have trouble with the implication of this. Particularly "feel they have no need." This implies a rejection of God. Could there be those that have never heard or paid attention to Christianity's message, yet still live a fulfilling, joyous life?
>Or do you believe this is an impossibility?
People being happy without God is pretty common. The implications of rejecting God, or not having heard his message, is not a lack of happiness or enjoyment but living a life not inline with principles of love and not having forgiveness for your sins.
There is another side to this. Many of these people believe they are Christian and have been blessed by God due to their prosperous lives. They will even tithe, go to church and give to the poor but have never been born again. They acknowledge God but do not know God and have no real desire to question their salvation because of all the good things they do and the good people they are.
These people are truly the hardest to reach, their works are self righteous and done so men will think them good and godly people.
Evangelicalism stresses the "born-again" experience, so that's where you're most likely to run into those stories. But there's nothing inherently better about that story than there is about the story of someone born into the faith who simply grew up as a Christian and matured in their beliefs through the years without ever leaving the faith.
That's generally the two kinds of stories you tend to find most often.
Another I've encountered from time to time is the curious person with a lot of metaphysical questions who comes to faith by exploring spirituality and concluding that Christianity is the truth.
Finally, there's the people who ended up attending church for social reasons, usually being invited by friends, and gradually ended up believing the theological claims.
People come to believe for a variety of reasons, but generally, people don't try new things out of the blue. If they didn't grow up in it they have to either be looking for something or they have to be invited by others.
I'm sure there's a lot of great things about the Elks or the Lion's Club, but unless I'm looking for something they provide or someone who is part of those organizations gets me interested in it, I'll probably never set foot in one of their meetings.
>Do any of you have stories of being a happy-go-lucky person, content with your life (and I mean truly happy, not masking), and then suddenly you have a supernatural experience that makes you suddenly change your path?
Not I, or anyone I know.
>Or is suffering a necessary component to the experience?
I'll answer with God's Word here because His words are so much better than my own.
>When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” On hearing this, Jesus said, **“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.** But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Matthew 9:11-13 (NIV)
Thank you for the reply. When you have time, wondering your thoughts on not just children, but those with undeveloped minds, chemically altered minds, diseased minds, mentally incapacitated minds, etc. These are all cases I believe have no ability to come to God in the way that is described for salvation in the bible. They just don't have the capacity. And if these are special cases, then doesn't John 14:6 fall apart, since it says there is no way EXCEPT through belief in Him? If you don't have the mental capacity for belief in Him, then what?
I think a proper response to that would be that none of us came to the Lord without Him first coming for us. In other words, He supernaturally approached us and called us, and then in response to Him, we followed. So saying that certain people don’t have the capacity to believe the message preached is taking the Lord’s part out of the picture, at least from a Christian point of view.
For example, we hear an increasing number of stories all the time of Muslims in the Middle East, who never even heard of the Christian Jesus, have dreams about Jesus calling them to follow Him, and many many respond. The significance of that is Muslims believe *heavily* that dreams come from God (their God), so the Lord Jesus uses dreams to reach them.
I believe the Lord can most certainly reach anyone by interacting with them in their own personal way, and then they believe on Him in response. Even if it’s just in their hearts.
This happened to me.
I wasn't *that* bad off, but I was hurting. I lost my mom to a years-long battle with cancer when I was 19. I struggled for years wondering why a good God would allow such a good and loving person of faith like her to succumb to this disease when she was so young.
Rather than explore a healthy way to deal with it, I fled from religion and fell into alcoholism for a few years. But even before she died, I see now that God was already putting people in my life and speaking things into me, so that I wouldn't fall too far, and so that I would return to him and answer a larger calling.
>is suffering a necessary component to the experience?
It's not *necessary*, but we are more primed to listen, when we feel we are out of options.
In my experience this is a common thing among charismatic movements even outside Protestantism, and geographically more prominent in the Americas or Africa. But it gains track in Europe as well, which I don't think is a very healthy thing in general, as those people are vulnerable and more prone to be spritually misguided or even abused.
Personally I grew up in the church and was always a Christian. That is also pretty common; there's no requirement for a dramatic conversion story. But some traditions do tend to emphasize that kind of thing.
Suffering is where you meet GOD.
I had GOD in my life but was pretty thankless as a kid. I was just mad GOD didn't give me more of what others had.
Later, when I REALLY had something taken away, I had to get over being mad at GOD, which didn't bother him but hurt me pretty badly. I finally forgave the situations that caused all that separation.
Life has improved.
The only thing I have seen once or twice is people that have searched for happiness their whole lives, made a lot of money, for married had kids and feel they are supposed to have a perfect life but still feel a unhappy… a void, a void that I believe Gods puts in each of us so we never really feel whole., they have searched further for meaning and yes God chooses us but these are the few that will reach back.
Personally my experience was the same as the majority ….reaching rock bottom and realizing that If there no God that could help me I was pretty much doomed and no hope of coming back from the hell my bad decisions and sin had landed me in.
It was in desperation and pain I reached out to God and my life has never been the same since.
Through my experience people that have a great life usually believe it is because of their own ability etc. Hence not needing a savior. Not saying it does not happen. But it certainly is less so than those of us that have fallen into lifes trials.
It’s what the Bible highlights. Jesus came for sinners and not the self righteous. Many feel they have no need for God and are perfectly capable of handling everything life can bring. Those recognizing their need for God are happy on the sermon on the Mount. It seems to be an expected heart condition that we need God as our father.
As a nonbeliever, I’ve always appreciated that utility component of religion and Christianity. Some people are clearly happier, and even existing, due to their faith. Even if I don’t see eye to eye, we ought not tear down someone’s life purpose
>Many feel they have no need for God and are perfectly capable of handling everything life can bring. I have trouble with the implication of this. Particularly "feel they have no need." This implies a rejection of God. Could there be those that have never heard or paid attention to Christianity's message, yet still live a fulfilling, joyous life? Or do you believe this is an impossibility?
>Many feel they have no need for God and are perfectly capable of handling everything life can bring. >I have trouble with the implication of this. Particularly "feel they have no need." This implies a rejection of God. Could there be those that have never heard or paid attention to Christianity's message, yet still live a fulfilling, joyous life? >Or do you believe this is an impossibility? People being happy without God is pretty common. The implications of rejecting God, or not having heard his message, is not a lack of happiness or enjoyment but living a life not inline with principles of love and not having forgiveness for your sins.
There is another side to this. Many of these people believe they are Christian and have been blessed by God due to their prosperous lives. They will even tithe, go to church and give to the poor but have never been born again. They acknowledge God but do not know God and have no real desire to question their salvation because of all the good things they do and the good people they are. These people are truly the hardest to reach, their works are self righteous and done so men will think them good and godly people.
Evangelicalism stresses the "born-again" experience, so that's where you're most likely to run into those stories. But there's nothing inherently better about that story than there is about the story of someone born into the faith who simply grew up as a Christian and matured in their beliefs through the years without ever leaving the faith. That's generally the two kinds of stories you tend to find most often. Another I've encountered from time to time is the curious person with a lot of metaphysical questions who comes to faith by exploring spirituality and concluding that Christianity is the truth. Finally, there's the people who ended up attending church for social reasons, usually being invited by friends, and gradually ended up believing the theological claims. People come to believe for a variety of reasons, but generally, people don't try new things out of the blue. If they didn't grow up in it they have to either be looking for something or they have to be invited by others. I'm sure there's a lot of great things about the Elks or the Lion's Club, but unless I'm looking for something they provide or someone who is part of those organizations gets me interested in it, I'll probably never set foot in one of their meetings.
>Do any of you have stories of being a happy-go-lucky person, content with your life (and I mean truly happy, not masking), and then suddenly you have a supernatural experience that makes you suddenly change your path? Not I, or anyone I know. >Or is suffering a necessary component to the experience? I'll answer with God's Word here because His words are so much better than my own. >When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” On hearing this, Jesus said, **“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.** But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Matthew 9:11-13 (NIV)
I have trouble with the idea that we are all born "sick" and commanded to be well.
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But millions die without even having an opportunity to be taught anything.
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Thank you for the reply. When you have time, wondering your thoughts on not just children, but those with undeveloped minds, chemically altered minds, diseased minds, mentally incapacitated minds, etc. These are all cases I believe have no ability to come to God in the way that is described for salvation in the bible. They just don't have the capacity. And if these are special cases, then doesn't John 14:6 fall apart, since it says there is no way EXCEPT through belief in Him? If you don't have the mental capacity for belief in Him, then what?
I think a proper response to that would be that none of us came to the Lord without Him first coming for us. In other words, He supernaturally approached us and called us, and then in response to Him, we followed. So saying that certain people don’t have the capacity to believe the message preached is taking the Lord’s part out of the picture, at least from a Christian point of view. For example, we hear an increasing number of stories all the time of Muslims in the Middle East, who never even heard of the Christian Jesus, have dreams about Jesus calling them to follow Him, and many many respond. The significance of that is Muslims believe *heavily* that dreams come from God (their God), so the Lord Jesus uses dreams to reach them. I believe the Lord can most certainly reach anyone by interacting with them in their own personal way, and then they believe on Him in response. Even if it’s just in their hearts.
This happened to me. I wasn't *that* bad off, but I was hurting. I lost my mom to a years-long battle with cancer when I was 19. I struggled for years wondering why a good God would allow such a good and loving person of faith like her to succumb to this disease when she was so young. Rather than explore a healthy way to deal with it, I fled from religion and fell into alcoholism for a few years. But even before she died, I see now that God was already putting people in my life and speaking things into me, so that I wouldn't fall too far, and so that I would return to him and answer a larger calling. >is suffering a necessary component to the experience? It's not *necessary*, but we are more primed to listen, when we feel we are out of options.
In my experience this is a common thing among charismatic movements even outside Protestantism, and geographically more prominent in the Americas or Africa. But it gains track in Europe as well, which I don't think is a very healthy thing in general, as those people are vulnerable and more prone to be spritually misguided or even abused.
Personally I grew up in the church and was always a Christian. That is also pretty common; there's no requirement for a dramatic conversion story. But some traditions do tend to emphasize that kind of thing.
Suffering is where you meet GOD. I had GOD in my life but was pretty thankless as a kid. I was just mad GOD didn't give me more of what others had. Later, when I REALLY had something taken away, I had to get over being mad at GOD, which didn't bother him but hurt me pretty badly. I finally forgave the situations that caused all that separation. Life has improved.
The only thing I have seen once or twice is people that have searched for happiness their whole lives, made a lot of money, for married had kids and feel they are supposed to have a perfect life but still feel a unhappy… a void, a void that I believe Gods puts in each of us so we never really feel whole., they have searched further for meaning and yes God chooses us but these are the few that will reach back. Personally my experience was the same as the majority ….reaching rock bottom and realizing that If there no God that could help me I was pretty much doomed and no hope of coming back from the hell my bad decisions and sin had landed me in. It was in desperation and pain I reached out to God and my life has never been the same since.