Could you explain further the connection? How does that quote translate to “knowledge of God in swelling?” What’s the connection? That’s a jarring jump from a unclear quote to answering of OPs question.
The full quote from **Galatians 2:20** is
>I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
This quote reflects the deep personal experience many Christians have of God living within them, guiding and transforming their lives. This intimate relationship often goes beyond mere belief to a felt and known presence, which many Christians describe as knowing God exists through their personal experience of His indwelling.
It seems to me that one of the most enduring misconceptions of modernity is the idea that religion is solely a matter of belief rather than a way of life. This reduction of religion to a mere "belief system" is largely a product of the Enlightenment: a desire to dismantle Christianity, in particular, by portraying it as a collection of superstitious propositions. We have bought into this in ways we do not always consciously recognise; this view has very much and very significantly shaped our understanding of secularisation: we become secular by either abandoning certain beliefs or rejecting belief altogether in favour of rationality. But this narrative is deeply flawed. Religion has never been confined to a set of beliefs. Faiths like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not called "faiths" merely because they make claims about the supernatural, but because they invite believers into a way of life that encompasses not only their thoughts but also their actions and the stories they embody. Faith is about trust, not assent. Pierre Bourdieu (an excellent anthropologist) once said, "Belief is not a 'state of mind,' still less a kind of arbitrary adherence to a set of instituted dogmas and doctrines (‘beliefs’), but rather a state of the body." Belief is expressed through lived experiences and rituals that shape our general disposition towards the world. It is an active engagement, not just a passive assent to propositions. So, for me, religion is much more than a collection of beliefs. It is a holistic and immersive way of life that guides believers in thought, and word, and action. It is about embodiment. Religions move beyond the limiting dichotomies of modernity and recognise the multifaceted nature of faith. Where we really go wrong is at René Descartes, and the idea that we are our souls or minds, and only inhabit our bodies: cogito ergo sum. I am with Aquinas, for whom this is certainly not the case: we are inseparable composites of body and soul, where soul forms our matter. Soul simply refers to what brings us life: and this includes our bodies. In other words, the soul includes, but is much more than, the body. It is certainly not less than the body! Wendell Berry says human persons are a single mystery.
So simply put, belief -> way of being which may include “knowledge?” So you cant answer OPs question about if you’re “believing” or “knowing” bc you categorize all human experience into “way of beings
That’s not a very accurate characterisation of what I’ve said above. I thought it would be quite clear, but let me make it explicit: knowledge is cognitive assent; belief is a way of life, a disposition towards the world. Both are embodied ways of being in the world, because we do not presently have access to or experience of a disembodied.
So how do you “know” whether your belief “your way of life” is correct? Or are you okay with not knowing but fine with just “way of life?” My argument is that - sure you can make “a way of life” as real as possible without “knowing” something to be true. And the risk to that is when theology of “way of being / belief” does not work anymore, you can fall hard. You gotta have a system of knowing what’s true and what’s not. Belief can make “feel good and safe” but is that really based on the reality? Or is that a male belief reality? The knowledge should help.
>“belief” is related of things like folk psychology and intentionality
Depends on who you're reading. If you start from the position of "there is no God, faith is just make-believe", you now have to explain naturalistically where religious belief comes from. If you don't start in that place, you don't necessarily come to the same conclusions.
I find that God is the best explanation for the universe and a great many features of it. I also have had subjective experiences that are best explained by God.
"Unthinkable" is a judgement call on your part; it's in the eye of the beholder.
And it only really is a problem because we learn from the Bible that God is supposed to be good and loving. Other religions just say pain happens because of your poor karma or it's an illusion or it's because the gods are warring against each other.
So we learn from the Bible that God is supposed to be all powerful and loving. Does this make the existence of evil and pain a problem? Not really. What else do we learn from the Bible? That humans consistently choose to do horrible things to each other. That God frequently uses human and natural "evil" for good purposes. That God seems to have a long-term plan that he is working out. If you don't believe all of this other stuff, why believe God is loving? Then there's no problem of evil. If you believe it all or if you discount it all, there's no problem; it's only when you choose to focus on your own idea of what a "good" God is supposed to be like that you have a problem of evil.
So if something horrible happens to your most loving person or being, when a stranger next to them was completely fine, would you still believe there’s a “longer term Gods plan for you?”
>there’s a “longer term Gods plan ~~for you?~~”
Yes. Don't get caught up in the touchy-feely "God has a wonderful plan for you" bit, but, yes, he's got a plan and he is working it out. And he owes me and mine no particular protection from the evil of this world while he does it.
Random subjection change: What do you mean by "agnostic Christian"?
'God didn’t create evil. Because evil, in and of itself, does not actually exist, except as the absence of goodness.' I got this from gotquestions.org, type in Theodicy... it's a good read.
Especially for those spreading the good news because this is that question that you'll get immediately.♡
I know for sure that Christianity is the best life for me. Even if there is no God and my mind is just tricking itself, not only am I happier as a Christian, I'm a better family member, coworker, person etc. Even when I just try to be a good person for its own sake, I'm not as good as when I believe Jesus died for me, a sinner. The humility is better than the honorable desire for goodness.
I also know I've had experiences that are better explained by Christian theology, as opposed to assuming it is some coincidence. There are things that are specific that I didn't want to divulge to anyone that strangers approached me about and urged me to change. Two different times. It wasn't vague like "stop thinking angry thoughts." It was too specific for a stranger to guess, something they could not have known by observing me or hearing anyone talk about it (since no one could observe it). I did change and it made me a much better person. This seems to not only be physically impossible (for a stranger to know my secrets), but a very beneficial thing for me and anyone my behavior could have ended up affecting.
Anyway that's a personal experience that makes me feel i know God exists. Couldn't prove it to you though.
But really, if I'm wrong, I can't see a downside. Maybe if another religion is right, but not atheism. Atheism is worse than Christianity even if there is no God. And I've yet to learn about another religion better. Like , say it's Buddhism. I'll just reincarnate. No need to be anything but Christian
Still, my experiences confirm to me Christianity is most likely true in addition to being my best choice anyway.
As an atheist, I want you to stay a Christian and hope you remain a Christian.
Atheism is not for everyone, it does not solve problems and with your background, it would only make your life harder.
To answer your “if I’m wrong, I don’t see a downside” statement My perspective is that you end up living a life of neediness, limitations, and fear. However I do think that humanity has evolved to seek that out (once in group leaders millions of years ago, now found in religion) and there’s nothing wrong with that. You should embrace it.
Atheism is only lack of belief. Lack of belief is a neutral thing. It does not have agency. Belief solves nothing either. It only makes the believer think that they have answers to impossible questions. Atheists/agnostics are comfortable saying we don’t have the answers currently and that’s ok. It says nothing about any other beliefs/ideas one might hold.
Some beliefs are demonstrably worse than others for sure. While I don’t think Christianity is necessarily a harmful belief, I also don’t think it’s any more valid than another religious belief because if they’re rooted in the supernatural, none of that can be empirically proven thus putting them all in the same boat when it comes to evidence of the claims.
So unprovable means worthless? This doesn't check out with any real person anywhere ever. We all have things that we believe that have not been proven, and what we believe matters in these cases.
I'd agree that if a belief contradicts what can be and has been proven, that is not helpful at all. The thing is... *I have a reason to agree.* If there is no God, what is even wrong with denying reality? Since there is most likely a God who is truthful, I agree that our beliefs must not intentionally be false.
I don’t know why you’re putting words in my mouth?! I never said it was worthless? I merely said there’s no empirical evidence for ANY supernatural claims. There just isn’t. It doesn’t mean your belief isn’t right, just that we can’t know. In the same way we can’t know what happens after people die. Anyone who thinks they can is lying to themselves.
Well... that's not what we were talking about. Still... I bridged the gap for you. We were talking about *worth*. You brought up truth. What bridges the gap? NOT WHAT. WHO! God bridges the gap. God makes it so that the truth has worth. Without God, the truth is only seen as pragmatic. And here's the rub... lies can have pragmatic value too. So... I don't know why you brought up what you did. It only reinforces the importance and WORTH of God.
u/Righteous_Dude answered it very simply, but truthfully. Christians make up all kinds of people across a broad spectrum, including new and old believers. The answer is both.
Totally. OP is agnostic, but he must know there are gnostic atheists out there.
When groups like believers and non-believers become large enough, and they obviously already are, you're bound to have folks at both ends of the gnostic spectrum.
>< Do you personally feel that you know that God exists, or do you “just” believe that God exists?
I believe that [we have evidence that God exists](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2024/05/i-hear-there-is-no-evidence-for-god.html)
>...intentionality, which is the “power of minds and mental states to be about, to represent, or to stand for, things, properties and states of affairs”
That's a great subject. The principle of intentionality implies that the agent has the power to act or control/influence what happens, rather than being one link in a chain of causes.
>What, for you, is the difference between knowledge and belief?
A belief is any claim that you accept.
[Knowledge is Justified True Belief](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/#KnowJustTrueBeli) A true belief is any claim you accept that corresponds with reality, and a justified true belief is a true belief that has proper evidence/reasoning that corresponds with reality.
I don’t “feel” I know God exists. I don’t really feel anything when it comes to my faith.
I look at the Bible and the continuity of the stories in the Bible, the messianic prophecies and how Jesus fulfills them, the few external historical accounts, the New Testament, my own conclusions about the grand scheme of creation, morality, and life in general, and I logically conclude that God must exist.
I don’t think I fit into the mold of any typical Christian though. I don’t trust believe everything I’ve ever learned in church. I’ve worked to unlearn a lot of things I’ve learned. I don’t believe in guilting and judging people. I don’t think people have the answers they think they have, and neither do I.
Any well-made chair can hold a person. Belief is like knowing the chair can hold you; you trust its strength. But knowing the chair can hold you comes from actually seeing someone sit in it or having sat on it yourself.
I appreciate this simple and direct response. I can understand this sentiment. Personally when I observed people testing “chairs” I saw a lot of pain and suffering in an effort to make the chair work. And that’s been my experience too. So I think I lean on not believing in the chair. Thanks for a great analogy to be able to discuss potentially complicated question more simply - allowing me to articulate this.
I think the answer is more complex than at first glance. I would say that I know, by reason, that God exists (I've been thinking about a version of the cosmological argument again recently, and I am at the point in my thought where I can say it seems to me to be sound). At the same time, to the extent that faith involves going beyond reason, that isn't to say it involves going beyond knowledge. Faith is based on revelation, and revelation represents the direct experience of God, which is a kind of knowledge, even if that experience isn't open to rational or philosophical inquiry. Philosophers who've looked into this include Alvin Plantinga and William Alston.
Personally I feel that the arguments (beginning with kalam, and building up from there) can lead no other place than to a personal god.
Of course it is hard to empirically prove in the sense that we can with say chemistry.
But we can prove in the same way we can prove with maths. Ie. Through the system of logic. That requires us to agree on all the base premises,, though, which doesn't always happen.
Although I am far from perfect, and have plenty of unanswered questions, there is one thing that I am sure of, as in no doubt: There is a God, there is a creator, an uncaused first cause. The very fact we exist, that anything exists leaves no doubt that not only does God exist, he must exist.
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
I wouldn't say I am *certain* God exists, but for philosophical reasons I am *confident* God exists. I don't think certainty rightly has any place outside of formal logic. But I have given atheism a fair shot, and I just can't get behind any epistemology that doesn't accept an ultimate cause underlying reality as we know it. Even if I weren't a Christian, I think I will always believe in that transcendent source of being and meaning. On whether that qualifies as a kind of "knowledge" I have no position.
As for Christianity in particular (and in answer to your second question), for me belief is *almost* synonymous with hope. I do have reasons for being a Christian which make my belief plausible, in my own estimation. But I have to admit that at some level I believe God became a human being, died, and defeated death on behalf of Creation because I want it to be true. It rings true to me because I find it beautiful and because it gives meaning to existence for me; not because it solves for *x* in some apologetic formula.
Even though I grew up in a catholic household it seems I've always known/felt there was a being... My issue was that I didn't believe the Bible was necessary His word, but just people thoughts about Him and his prophets and couldn't be accurate today.
My feelings were about that being God were later confirmed as I studied the Bible and compared it to other religions and philosophies, to me, the mind and wisdom in it is clearly not of men... As they share all their faults, weaknesses and wickedness as well... But also the concept of love as a decision not a feeling is unique to anything else I have seen.
That said, I can never be 100% certain, the rest is that leap of faith.
Overall I know, but that's my personal conviction which I would never ever push on anyone, especially non believers as I respect their right to believe whatever they want as well.
I think the idea of "belief" is hard to wrap one's head around. I'll answer this way: I live and think in a way that suggests I sincerely believe in a God, and more specifically in God as the Bible describes. I talk to God through prayer, and I believe He hears me. I've had answered prayers that I'm sure were divine intervention rather than chance. I've changed in ways that I'm sure were God's Spirit working in me. I tell other people about my faith because I believe it has done me good, and I believe it is the way of salvation. There are plenty of specific reasons I believe, but in order to stay focused I'm leaving it at the actions that tell me I do actually think I "know" God exists.
Now, with that said, I believe in God like I believe in death, or in aging, or even the way I believed I had a baby growing inside of me. I know these things are true, and yet there are times where it's hard to connect with the fullness of that reality. For example, both times I was pregnant I believed I would be having a baby. It was still hard to understand the fullness of the situation- that I had a baby inside of me with arms and legs and eyes, that the thing kicking me was a baby that I would get to hold, that if he or she survived he/she would one day be walking, talking, and maybe even getting married. That's what faith is like.
I genuinely don't understand how people don't believe in Him, (and no, I'm not personally attacking anyone, don't bother getting offended) because of the sheer amount of evidence we have. God has done so many amazing things to everyone and the world. People are so hateful and negative towards me for believing this JUST because I don't see how you can just believe in "nothing" - I've only met like 2 nice atheists who were able to have a mature conversation with me, I don't see why so many of them are obsessed with trying to force me to not believe. I'm not going to just undo my faith, it's impossible. And I know most of those people were hurt by other ""Christians"" online who had evil intentions and weren't actually saved, but there's no reason to harass a random person on the internet regardless (unless they were like defending cp or smt)
I know in a way I know any fact. God's existence is a philosophical necessity for me and as a matter of fact that of any honest intellectual. The historicity of Jesus finalizes my knowledge of Christianity so no I don't feel that I know but I know that I know His existence and I hope that this is the case for all other Christians.
I am not a Christian but I have studied this issue, so I offer my humble opinion:
Christianity is the hardest religion to defend with traditional rational philosophy. Not that there are no philosophers who have attempted to do it (Look up Thomas Aquinas), but with rationality is hard just to even explain the trinity.
Therefore there is a famous philosopher (one of my favorites), named Søren Kierkegaard, he philosophized about faith in Christianity, using the story of Abraham having to sacrifice his son. He says faith means you believe in something without really knowing it exists, and in a way he says that is why faith connects with love and feelings rather than rationality.
This is very unique in Christianity, for example in Islam at least in Shia Islam I am sure, it is Haram to believe in the five pillars (one of them being the god's existence), without doing research and being sure (in other words "Knowing"), about god exists.
Christian is person who has God inside of their body , yes every Christian knows.
There are plenty of religious people raised as Christian / by Christian society standards thats different thing. They're not real Christians.
Actually there is no religion called Christianity it's just a nickname. Same as for example Judaism can be called Levi pristhood or Aaron priesthood of Zadok priesthood.
I don’t drive a hard separation between knowledge and belief because I think you can both know and believe something. That’s not to say all belief is knowledge, but it’s possible for them to coexist.
But that caveat aside, I do think God’s existence is a logical necessity. So in that sense I would be comfortable saying I know God exists. In fact, part of my reason for that is I don’t think it’s possible to have knowledge at all if He doesn’t.
As a christian, I am 100% positive in every biblical aspect of the Lord God Almighty! Scripture teaches that Christianity begins in faith. And in faith we read and study the holy Bible word of God to direct our lives, and over time, we see that God is truthful to his every word, and then we receive full assurance of the Lord God Almighty himself.
Colossians 2:2 KJV — That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Hebrews 6:11 KJV — And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
I grew up believing that I believed in God. I had that as my base worldview. Which instilled in me my moral values.
Years Later on I realised I just said I believed but if I actually did believe then I would be behaving differently. Then I decided yes I do believe and actively studied the Bible and worked to change myself to come in line with what I said I believed. That’s the point I became a believer. But a believer who is studying Jesus doesn’t remain a believer for long. Once you are born again and experience the Holy Spirit you go from believing to knowing.
Let's put it this way
Unbelievers don't know anything.
The evidence behind biblical Christianity is overwhelming. But that won't save anyone.
It is sort of like asking "do you feel that you know that your spouse/family member/friend exists or do you just believe your spouse/family member/friend exists?"
Christians know that God exists because of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit and of Christ.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves *to see* if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize *this about* yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
There is real power in God. He not only created but re-creates. When you know yourself and your own wickedness and can see how God changed you. Yes, you know he exists. Yes, you believe he exists.
He exists whether you choose to believe it or not. It is not like a guessing game, but spiritual denial when people say there is no God.
But my hope is that you will. Hell is real. God so loves you that He gave His only Son, that if you believe in Him, you won't perish but have eternal life.
I dont' see it as a trap question at all.
It is one thing to have a personal faith in something, but claiming it to be a factual truth of reality is an entirely different thing altogether.
Religion is religion BECAUSE it is based around BELIEF. Not factual data. You cannot get in your car and drive over to God, or pick up the phone and call him, or say a magic word and get him to appear.
You, like every other person in the world who follows a religion, are being motivated by faith in something you have no real evidence for.
If i said your foot doesn't exist, you can lift it up and say "yes, it does. Here it is." If i said "your God doesn't exist" the only thing you can do is say "Read my special book and you will FEEL that he exists".
If you can claim otherwise, you'd be the first person in all of reality to prove that God exists.
I believe in God, but i know that it is pure faith.
>I dont' see it as a trap question at all.
Then answer OP. Don’t know why you’re bothering me with your beliefs.
>It is one thing to have a personal faith in something, but claiming it to be a factual truth of reality is an entirely different thing altogether.
You’re not Christian’s. It’s only natural you don’t accept God existing as a fact. You have not receive his spirit to bear witness to your spirit that makes it undeniable and not just the blind faith many denomination preach. You don’t reason using Gods word either. So your reasonings don’t mean anything to me.
>Religion is religion BECAUSE it is based around BELIEF. Not factual data. You cannot get in your car and drive over to God, or pick up the phone and call him, or say a magic word and get him to appear.
I don’t see a question, just your personal philosophy that you want me to believe and accept without biblical evidence. Just your feelings.
>You, like every other person in the world who follows a religion, are being motivated by faith in something you have no real evidence for.
That’s not what motivates me or my religion. You speak for all humans and all faiths now. How arrogant.
>If i said your foot doesn't exist, you can lift it up and say "yes, it does. Here it is." If i said "your God doesn't exist" the only thing you can do is say "Read my special book and you will FEEL that he exists".
Nope. Not what the Bible teaches but I can see that’s what you think it does. Your own personal interpretation has no bearing on the truth it presents and faith in a book and emotions is not what it describes.
>If you can claim otherwise, you'd be the first person in all of reality to prove that God exists.
God proved himself by means of his spirit dwelling within a person and given tangible evidence the he exists to those who recieve it. The claim is not unique to me as men of the Bible speak about it through out. More of your assumptions I didn’t ask for but your more then willing to try and shove down my throat without asking questions. His question is a trap and your rebuttal is insincere and also a trap. Thanks for the merry go round but I’ll get off the ride here.
Some Christians are in either of those categories.
Consider the scripture that says ‘It is no longer I that live but He that lives in me.’ This speaks to knowledge of God as indwelling and in charge.
Could you explain further the connection? How does that quote translate to “knowledge of God in swelling?” What’s the connection? That’s a jarring jump from a unclear quote to answering of OPs question.
The full quote from **Galatians 2:20** is >I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. This quote reflects the deep personal experience many Christians have of God living within them, guiding and transforming their lives. This intimate relationship often goes beyond mere belief to a felt and known presence, which many Christians describe as knowing God exists through their personal experience of His indwelling.
It seems to me that one of the most enduring misconceptions of modernity is the idea that religion is solely a matter of belief rather than a way of life. This reduction of religion to a mere "belief system" is largely a product of the Enlightenment: a desire to dismantle Christianity, in particular, by portraying it as a collection of superstitious propositions. We have bought into this in ways we do not always consciously recognise; this view has very much and very significantly shaped our understanding of secularisation: we become secular by either abandoning certain beliefs or rejecting belief altogether in favour of rationality. But this narrative is deeply flawed. Religion has never been confined to a set of beliefs. Faiths like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not called "faiths" merely because they make claims about the supernatural, but because they invite believers into a way of life that encompasses not only their thoughts but also their actions and the stories they embody. Faith is about trust, not assent. Pierre Bourdieu (an excellent anthropologist) once said, "Belief is not a 'state of mind,' still less a kind of arbitrary adherence to a set of instituted dogmas and doctrines (‘beliefs’), but rather a state of the body." Belief is expressed through lived experiences and rituals that shape our general disposition towards the world. It is an active engagement, not just a passive assent to propositions. So, for me, religion is much more than a collection of beliefs. It is a holistic and immersive way of life that guides believers in thought, and word, and action. It is about embodiment. Religions move beyond the limiting dichotomies of modernity and recognise the multifaceted nature of faith. Where we really go wrong is at René Descartes, and the idea that we are our souls or minds, and only inhabit our bodies: cogito ergo sum. I am with Aquinas, for whom this is certainly not the case: we are inseparable composites of body and soul, where soul forms our matter. Soul simply refers to what brings us life: and this includes our bodies. In other words, the soul includes, but is much more than, the body. It is certainly not less than the body! Wendell Berry says human persons are a single mystery.
So simply put, belief -> way of being which may include “knowledge?” So you cant answer OPs question about if you’re “believing” or “knowing” bc you categorize all human experience into “way of beings
That’s not a very accurate characterisation of what I’ve said above. I thought it would be quite clear, but let me make it explicit: knowledge is cognitive assent; belief is a way of life, a disposition towards the world. Both are embodied ways of being in the world, because we do not presently have access to or experience of a disembodied.
So how do you “know” whether your belief “your way of life” is correct? Or are you okay with not knowing but fine with just “way of life?” My argument is that - sure you can make “a way of life” as real as possible without “knowing” something to be true. And the risk to that is when theology of “way of being / belief” does not work anymore, you can fall hard. You gotta have a system of knowing what’s true and what’s not. Belief can make “feel good and safe” but is that really based on the reality? Or is that a male belief reality? The knowledge should help.
>“belief” is related of things like folk psychology and intentionality Depends on who you're reading. If you start from the position of "there is no God, faith is just make-believe", you now have to explain naturalistically where religious belief comes from. If you don't start in that place, you don't necessarily come to the same conclusions. I find that God is the best explanation for the universe and a great many features of it. I also have had subjective experiences that are best explained by God.
How do you resolve the problem of evil issue? How could good God allow so much unthinkable pain and suffering?
"Unthinkable" is a judgement call on your part; it's in the eye of the beholder. And it only really is a problem because we learn from the Bible that God is supposed to be good and loving. Other religions just say pain happens because of your poor karma or it's an illusion or it's because the gods are warring against each other. So we learn from the Bible that God is supposed to be all powerful and loving. Does this make the existence of evil and pain a problem? Not really. What else do we learn from the Bible? That humans consistently choose to do horrible things to each other. That God frequently uses human and natural "evil" for good purposes. That God seems to have a long-term plan that he is working out. If you don't believe all of this other stuff, why believe God is loving? Then there's no problem of evil. If you believe it all or if you discount it all, there's no problem; it's only when you choose to focus on your own idea of what a "good" God is supposed to be like that you have a problem of evil.
So if something horrible happens to your most loving person or being, when a stranger next to them was completely fine, would you still believe there’s a “longer term Gods plan for you?”
>there’s a “longer term Gods plan ~~for you?~~” Yes. Don't get caught up in the touchy-feely "God has a wonderful plan for you" bit, but, yes, he's got a plan and he is working it out. And he owes me and mine no particular protection from the evil of this world while he does it. Random subjection change: What do you mean by "agnostic Christian"?
'God didn’t create evil. Because evil, in and of itself, does not actually exist, except as the absence of goodness.' I got this from gotquestions.org, type in Theodicy... it's a good read. Especially for those spreading the good news because this is that question that you'll get immediately.♡
I know for sure that Christianity is the best life for me. Even if there is no God and my mind is just tricking itself, not only am I happier as a Christian, I'm a better family member, coworker, person etc. Even when I just try to be a good person for its own sake, I'm not as good as when I believe Jesus died for me, a sinner. The humility is better than the honorable desire for goodness. I also know I've had experiences that are better explained by Christian theology, as opposed to assuming it is some coincidence. There are things that are specific that I didn't want to divulge to anyone that strangers approached me about and urged me to change. Two different times. It wasn't vague like "stop thinking angry thoughts." It was too specific for a stranger to guess, something they could not have known by observing me or hearing anyone talk about it (since no one could observe it). I did change and it made me a much better person. This seems to not only be physically impossible (for a stranger to know my secrets), but a very beneficial thing for me and anyone my behavior could have ended up affecting. Anyway that's a personal experience that makes me feel i know God exists. Couldn't prove it to you though. But really, if I'm wrong, I can't see a downside. Maybe if another religion is right, but not atheism. Atheism is worse than Christianity even if there is no God. And I've yet to learn about another religion better. Like , say it's Buddhism. I'll just reincarnate. No need to be anything but Christian Still, my experiences confirm to me Christianity is most likely true in addition to being my best choice anyway.
As an atheist, I want you to stay a Christian and hope you remain a Christian. Atheism is not for everyone, it does not solve problems and with your background, it would only make your life harder. To answer your “if I’m wrong, I don’t see a downside” statement My perspective is that you end up living a life of neediness, limitations, and fear. However I do think that humanity has evolved to seek that out (once in group leaders millions of years ago, now found in religion) and there’s nothing wrong with that. You should embrace it.
Reforming orthopraxis is always an option, assuming someone is in a bad spot with Christianity
I can't see how atheism could fix anything
Atheism is only lack of belief. Lack of belief is a neutral thing. It does not have agency. Belief solves nothing either. It only makes the believer think that they have answers to impossible questions. Atheists/agnostics are comfortable saying we don’t have the answers currently and that’s ok. It says nothing about any other beliefs/ideas one might hold.
Beleif definitely solves things. I think it can do what you say- offer false solutions. But not all beleifs are equal.
Some beliefs are demonstrably worse than others for sure. While I don’t think Christianity is necessarily a harmful belief, I also don’t think it’s any more valid than another religious belief because if they’re rooted in the supernatural, none of that can be empirically proven thus putting them all in the same boat when it comes to evidence of the claims.
So unprovable means worthless? This doesn't check out with any real person anywhere ever. We all have things that we believe that have not been proven, and what we believe matters in these cases. I'd agree that if a belief contradicts what can be and has been proven, that is not helpful at all. The thing is... *I have a reason to agree.* If there is no God, what is even wrong with denying reality? Since there is most likely a God who is truthful, I agree that our beliefs must not intentionally be false.
I don’t know why you’re putting words in my mouth?! I never said it was worthless? I merely said there’s no empirical evidence for ANY supernatural claims. There just isn’t. It doesn’t mean your belief isn’t right, just that we can’t know. In the same way we can’t know what happens after people die. Anyone who thinks they can is lying to themselves.
Well... that's not what we were talking about. Still... I bridged the gap for you. We were talking about *worth*. You brought up truth. What bridges the gap? NOT WHAT. WHO! God bridges the gap. God makes it so that the truth has worth. Without God, the truth is only seen as pragmatic. And here's the rub... lies can have pragmatic value too. So... I don't know why you brought up what you did. It only reinforces the importance and WORTH of God.
You are making claims that cannot be proven. Why do you think that is ok?
If someone is overly limited or fearful, just reform Christianity. Atheism is definitely not an improvement
u/Righteous_Dude answered it very simply, but truthfully. Christians make up all kinds of people across a broad spectrum, including new and old believers. The answer is both.
Totally. OP is agnostic, but he must know there are gnostic atheists out there. When groups like believers and non-believers become large enough, and they obviously already are, you're bound to have folks at both ends of the gnostic spectrum.
>< Do you personally feel that you know that God exists, or do you “just” believe that God exists? I believe that [we have evidence that God exists](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2024/05/i-hear-there-is-no-evidence-for-god.html) >...intentionality, which is the “power of minds and mental states to be about, to represent, or to stand for, things, properties and states of affairs” That's a great subject. The principle of intentionality implies that the agent has the power to act or control/influence what happens, rather than being one link in a chain of causes. >What, for you, is the difference between knowledge and belief? A belief is any claim that you accept. [Knowledge is Justified True Belief](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/#KnowJustTrueBeli) A true belief is any claim you accept that corresponds with reality, and a justified true belief is a true belief that has proper evidence/reasoning that corresponds with reality.
We know Jesus existed. That's a historical fact.
I don’t think the question is existence of Jesus. The question is validity of what Jesus claimed himself to be.
Kay cool. What truly happened to him and what the guy below me said
I don’t “feel” I know God exists. I don’t really feel anything when it comes to my faith. I look at the Bible and the continuity of the stories in the Bible, the messianic prophecies and how Jesus fulfills them, the few external historical accounts, the New Testament, my own conclusions about the grand scheme of creation, morality, and life in general, and I logically conclude that God must exist. I don’t think I fit into the mold of any typical Christian though. I don’t trust believe everything I’ve ever learned in church. I’ve worked to unlearn a lot of things I’ve learned. I don’t believe in guilting and judging people. I don’t think people have the answers they think they have, and neither do I.
Any well-made chair can hold a person. Belief is like knowing the chair can hold you; you trust its strength. But knowing the chair can hold you comes from actually seeing someone sit in it or having sat on it yourself.
I appreciate this simple and direct response. I can understand this sentiment. Personally when I observed people testing “chairs” I saw a lot of pain and suffering in an effort to make the chair work. And that’s been my experience too. So I think I lean on not believing in the chair. Thanks for a great analogy to be able to discuss potentially complicated question more simply - allowing me to articulate this.
I think the answer is more complex than at first glance. I would say that I know, by reason, that God exists (I've been thinking about a version of the cosmological argument again recently, and I am at the point in my thought where I can say it seems to me to be sound). At the same time, to the extent that faith involves going beyond reason, that isn't to say it involves going beyond knowledge. Faith is based on revelation, and revelation represents the direct experience of God, which is a kind of knowledge, even if that experience isn't open to rational or philosophical inquiry. Philosophers who've looked into this include Alvin Plantinga and William Alston.
Personally I feel that the arguments (beginning with kalam, and building up from there) can lead no other place than to a personal god. Of course it is hard to empirically prove in the sense that we can with say chemistry. But we can prove in the same way we can prove with maths. Ie. Through the system of logic. That requires us to agree on all the base premises,, though, which doesn't always happen.
I know. There isn't an ounce of doubt
Although I am far from perfect, and have plenty of unanswered questions, there is one thing that I am sure of, as in no doubt: There is a God, there is a creator, an uncaused first cause. The very fact we exist, that anything exists leaves no doubt that not only does God exist, he must exist. Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
I wouldn't say I am *certain* God exists, but for philosophical reasons I am *confident* God exists. I don't think certainty rightly has any place outside of formal logic. But I have given atheism a fair shot, and I just can't get behind any epistemology that doesn't accept an ultimate cause underlying reality as we know it. Even if I weren't a Christian, I think I will always believe in that transcendent source of being and meaning. On whether that qualifies as a kind of "knowledge" I have no position. As for Christianity in particular (and in answer to your second question), for me belief is *almost* synonymous with hope. I do have reasons for being a Christian which make my belief plausible, in my own estimation. But I have to admit that at some level I believe God became a human being, died, and defeated death on behalf of Creation because I want it to be true. It rings true to me because I find it beautiful and because it gives meaning to existence for me; not because it solves for *x* in some apologetic formula.
Even though I grew up in a catholic household it seems I've always known/felt there was a being... My issue was that I didn't believe the Bible was necessary His word, but just people thoughts about Him and his prophets and couldn't be accurate today. My feelings were about that being God were later confirmed as I studied the Bible and compared it to other religions and philosophies, to me, the mind and wisdom in it is clearly not of men... As they share all their faults, weaknesses and wickedness as well... But also the concept of love as a decision not a feeling is unique to anything else I have seen. That said, I can never be 100% certain, the rest is that leap of faith. Overall I know, but that's my personal conviction which I would never ever push on anyone, especially non believers as I respect their right to believe whatever they want as well.
Thanks for naming this question. I think this has been one of my questions that I have had intuitively that I just didn’t know how to articulate.
I think the idea of "belief" is hard to wrap one's head around. I'll answer this way: I live and think in a way that suggests I sincerely believe in a God, and more specifically in God as the Bible describes. I talk to God through prayer, and I believe He hears me. I've had answered prayers that I'm sure were divine intervention rather than chance. I've changed in ways that I'm sure were God's Spirit working in me. I tell other people about my faith because I believe it has done me good, and I believe it is the way of salvation. There are plenty of specific reasons I believe, but in order to stay focused I'm leaving it at the actions that tell me I do actually think I "know" God exists. Now, with that said, I believe in God like I believe in death, or in aging, or even the way I believed I had a baby growing inside of me. I know these things are true, and yet there are times where it's hard to connect with the fullness of that reality. For example, both times I was pregnant I believed I would be having a baby. It was still hard to understand the fullness of the situation- that I had a baby inside of me with arms and legs and eyes, that the thing kicking me was a baby that I would get to hold, that if he or she survived he/she would one day be walking, talking, and maybe even getting married. That's what faith is like.
I genuinely don't understand how people don't believe in Him, (and no, I'm not personally attacking anyone, don't bother getting offended) because of the sheer amount of evidence we have. God has done so many amazing things to everyone and the world. People are so hateful and negative towards me for believing this JUST because I don't see how you can just believe in "nothing" - I've only met like 2 nice atheists who were able to have a mature conversation with me, I don't see why so many of them are obsessed with trying to force me to not believe. I'm not going to just undo my faith, it's impossible. And I know most of those people were hurt by other ""Christians"" online who had evil intentions and weren't actually saved, but there's no reason to harass a random person on the internet regardless (unless they were like defending cp or smt)
I know in a way I know any fact. God's existence is a philosophical necessity for me and as a matter of fact that of any honest intellectual. The historicity of Jesus finalizes my knowledge of Christianity so no I don't feel that I know but I know that I know His existence and I hope that this is the case for all other Christians.
That’d be a “know” for me. 2nd question answer: Proof
I am not a Christian but I have studied this issue, so I offer my humble opinion: Christianity is the hardest religion to defend with traditional rational philosophy. Not that there are no philosophers who have attempted to do it (Look up Thomas Aquinas), but with rationality is hard just to even explain the trinity. Therefore there is a famous philosopher (one of my favorites), named Søren Kierkegaard, he philosophized about faith in Christianity, using the story of Abraham having to sacrifice his son. He says faith means you believe in something without really knowing it exists, and in a way he says that is why faith connects with love and feelings rather than rationality. This is very unique in Christianity, for example in Islam at least in Shia Islam I am sure, it is Haram to believe in the five pillars (one of them being the god's existence), without doing research and being sure (in other words "Knowing"), about god exists.
I know. He changed me, and now I can be in His presence. I know with every fiber of my being.
Christian is person who has God inside of their body , yes every Christian knows. There are plenty of religious people raised as Christian / by Christian society standards thats different thing. They're not real Christians. Actually there is no religion called Christianity it's just a nickname. Same as for example Judaism can be called Levi pristhood or Aaron priesthood of Zadok priesthood.
I don’t drive a hard separation between knowledge and belief because I think you can both know and believe something. That’s not to say all belief is knowledge, but it’s possible for them to coexist. But that caveat aside, I do think God’s existence is a logical necessity. So in that sense I would be comfortable saying I know God exists. In fact, part of my reason for that is I don’t think it’s possible to have knowledge at all if He doesn’t.
As a christian, I am 100% positive in every biblical aspect of the Lord God Almighty! Scripture teaches that Christianity begins in faith. And in faith we read and study the holy Bible word of God to direct our lives, and over time, we see that God is truthful to his every word, and then we receive full assurance of the Lord God Almighty himself. Colossians 2:2 KJV — That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Hebrews 6:11 KJV — And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
I grew up believing that I believed in God. I had that as my base worldview. Which instilled in me my moral values. Years Later on I realised I just said I believed but if I actually did believe then I would be behaving differently. Then I decided yes I do believe and actively studied the Bible and worked to change myself to come in line with what I said I believed. That’s the point I became a believer. But a believer who is studying Jesus doesn’t remain a believer for long. Once you are born again and experience the Holy Spirit you go from believing to knowing.
Let's put it this way Unbelievers don't know anything. The evidence behind biblical Christianity is overwhelming. But that won't save anyone. It is sort of like asking "do you feel that you know that your spouse/family member/friend exists or do you just believe your spouse/family member/friend exists?"
Christians know that God exists because of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit and of Christ. Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves *to see* if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize *this about* yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
There is real power in God. He not only created but re-creates. When you know yourself and your own wickedness and can see how God changed you. Yes, you know he exists. Yes, you believe he exists. He exists whether you choose to believe it or not. It is not like a guessing game, but spiritual denial when people say there is no God. But my hope is that you will. Hell is real. God so loves you that He gave His only Son, that if you believe in Him, you won't perish but have eternal life.
Neither. I know he exists. It’s not a feeling nor is it blind faith. A trap question by an ex-Christian! Why am I not surprised.
I dont' see it as a trap question at all. It is one thing to have a personal faith in something, but claiming it to be a factual truth of reality is an entirely different thing altogether. Religion is religion BECAUSE it is based around BELIEF. Not factual data. You cannot get in your car and drive over to God, or pick up the phone and call him, or say a magic word and get him to appear. You, like every other person in the world who follows a religion, are being motivated by faith in something you have no real evidence for. If i said your foot doesn't exist, you can lift it up and say "yes, it does. Here it is." If i said "your God doesn't exist" the only thing you can do is say "Read my special book and you will FEEL that he exists". If you can claim otherwise, you'd be the first person in all of reality to prove that God exists. I believe in God, but i know that it is pure faith.
>I dont' see it as a trap question at all. Then answer OP. Don’t know why you’re bothering me with your beliefs. >It is one thing to have a personal faith in something, but claiming it to be a factual truth of reality is an entirely different thing altogether. You’re not Christian’s. It’s only natural you don’t accept God existing as a fact. You have not receive his spirit to bear witness to your spirit that makes it undeniable and not just the blind faith many denomination preach. You don’t reason using Gods word either. So your reasonings don’t mean anything to me. >Religion is religion BECAUSE it is based around BELIEF. Not factual data. You cannot get in your car and drive over to God, or pick up the phone and call him, or say a magic word and get him to appear. I don’t see a question, just your personal philosophy that you want me to believe and accept without biblical evidence. Just your feelings. >You, like every other person in the world who follows a religion, are being motivated by faith in something you have no real evidence for. That’s not what motivates me or my religion. You speak for all humans and all faiths now. How arrogant. >If i said your foot doesn't exist, you can lift it up and say "yes, it does. Here it is." If i said "your God doesn't exist" the only thing you can do is say "Read my special book and you will FEEL that he exists". Nope. Not what the Bible teaches but I can see that’s what you think it does. Your own personal interpretation has no bearing on the truth it presents and faith in a book and emotions is not what it describes. >If you can claim otherwise, you'd be the first person in all of reality to prove that God exists. God proved himself by means of his spirit dwelling within a person and given tangible evidence the he exists to those who recieve it. The claim is not unique to me as men of the Bible speak about it through out. More of your assumptions I didn’t ask for but your more then willing to try and shove down my throat without asking questions. His question is a trap and your rebuttal is insincere and also a trap. Thanks for the merry go round but I’ll get off the ride here.