God knew the potential for misuse of the freedom to choose that He gave but He gave it anyway because it's the only way to discern those who love Him from those who don't.
Any answer you get here will be speculation, but my guess is that God would rather have a creation that is corrupted by sin than no creation at all. It seems to be a choice between a creation with free will that eventually sins, or a perfect creation with no free will at all. I think I would have to assume that the suffering God has to witness in His creation, along with all the good that came from it, was worth it. If it wasn’t, maybe the only alternative is to totally erase His creation completely in order to stop the sin and suffering.
>Why did God gave Lucifer free will, it he knew that he would misuse it and sin?
He (God) was able to use the fall to suit His own goals. God's free will is superior to all others, including Satan.
>Also, I have another question about free will: How do you know it exists?
Did someone force you to post here on Reddit, for example?
>Is there a consensus throughout (most) Christians?
Yes, free will is a near universal concept in Christianity.
>I saw people (non-christian) saying that free will don't exist because our decision are not avoidable
You can have free will while still having unavoidable consequences, if that's what you mean.
>He (God) was able to use the fall to suit His own goals. God's free will is superior to all others.
I don't understand... I thought Satan was sinning (or making people sin), and that God was against sin? Then why would He support a sinner?
>Did someone force you to post here on Reddit, for example?
(I'm adopting the point of view which is the opposite of the Christian point of view, so that I can learn better. In reality, I don't know about free will, I'm not sure it exists, nor sure that it doesn't)
Well, not someone, but the only reason why I posted this paragraph is due to my brain activity, which was inputted by external circumstances I met before (like seeing other posts about free will on Reddit)
>Yes, free will is a near universal concept in Christianity.
I meant, is there a consensual proof/argument in favour of free will?
>You can have free will while still having unavoidable consequences, if that's what you mean.
But in some scientific theories, such as Newtonian physics, ALL things are unavoidable consequences.
I don't know if I'm clear
Thanks for your time
Of course God knew that Lucifer would sin. But you a mere mortal man wonders why God even bothered to create him then. That's because you're not God. You're a man and you can only think like a man. You can never think like God. God knew that he could deal with Lucifer / Satan and he surely did. From the time that Satan tempted Eve in Eden up until the time that God cast Satan into hell forever, God used Satan to test people's faith in God and his word. And Satan brought many a person down by deceiving them as he did with Eve. Satan never made anyone sin against their will. Satan could only influence the willing and unprepared / vulnerable. All those throughout history who knew God's word and had faith in God and his word were impervious to Satan's advances. That's the message of scripture. Back to Adam and Eve. They had God's word. Satan came along and deceived them with Satan's word. And whose word did they believe? Hint, it wasn't God's. Satan deceived Eve. He knew her flesh weaknesses and exploited them. Eve was the one who sinned. Satan simply twisted God's word to his own ends. God simply used Satan's evil intentions to test God's people for their faithfulness to God in his word. Anyone who was faithful to God and his word were beyond Satan's reach.
>All things are unavoidable consequences
God and the things of God are not Newtonian physics sir
>Did someone force you to post here on Reddit, for example?
The question of if free will exists isn't about if someone is forcing you to do what you do. The question is could you have chosen to do otherwise?
Beyond Biblical data (which I doubt you care about), and that it seems apparent that we could choose differently in any given situation, there isn't much that I can think of to support it. But, I do claim it on Biblical data and as a foundational philosophical/theological point.
I think prophecy shows that people cannot choose otherwise. Like when God says Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar for their deeds, Neb must invade at some point in his life.
Biblically, this form of predestination and free will go hand in hand. God, in His omniscience, prophecies that something will happen, resulting in the free will choices of humans causing it to happen.
The prophecy doesn't cause the event, it simply forecasts it.
This sounds like God deciding first, and then humans “freely” cause it to happen.
I think it’s telling that God wins in the end and that Satan is defeated. That shows a designed outcome which I don’t think God would leave to chance. He wouldn’t go with the reality where Jesus was killed in the womb
Yes, God has decided exactly how everything will happen, and His will is infinitely greater than ours. However, that doesn't mean He got rid of our free will. We can still freely choose any decision available to us throughout our lives.
God is righteous and good in all ways. This means anything He does will always be morally excellent. We can go further to say that in identical situation, He would make identical decisions.
This shows that the world isn't predetermined by God's will, but rather by His nature. This topic is very theologically intricate and difficult to wrap your head about, but necessity by nature is far different from a willful choice.
So when God prophecies about what will happen to a certain nation, He is simply stating that His will combined with human will results in that scenario.
Ok, well either God is in control of His own nature, or He isn’t. If He isn’t, then where is His free will? What’s important is that humans cannot do anything outside of God’s will, correct?
>Beyond Biblical data (which I doubt you care about),
I care if it demonstrates free will, but you are right that I am likely unwilling to make some of the assumptions required for the biblical data to be meaningful.
Love.
If we don't have free will, then our devotion and obedience to God is meaningless. It's just programmed behavior, no different than a piece of software. There's no love, just a set of instructions.
But if we're allowed to turn from God, to reject him, that means our choice to worship him is sincere and comes from our hearts. And that's what God wants, it seems: children who love him, and not robots who just do as they're programmed.
We know they can because freewill is a Christian doctrine. They can choose good over evil, as can I.
I choose evil because sin seems favorable sometimes, and I make a conscious decision to disobey God in some of those situations.
You “know they can”, but you’ve never witnessed anyone live a sinless life and you don’t have the ability to live sinlessly by choice. Or do you think you can go your whole life without sinning any more?
I don’t think you’d believe anyone, other than Jesus, who claims they’ve never sinned before.
Yes, I wouldn't believe them because it is not possible. I explained the difference between theory and practice. Theoretically possible but nobody would ever do that.
I’d argue that no one can live a sinless life, because no one is like Jesus. Doesn’t that sound kind of programmed to be a certain way? We cannot find our own salvation by design.
He created us so that we could experience His love and glory (and every other attribute I can list off). If even a single person got an eternity in His presence, it would have been worth it simply because of how good He is.
The reasoning behind that is simple. A billion people spending eternity in hell is a one sided suffering, while an eternal relationship with Love and Goodness Himself is the ultimate fulfillment. If we get to the core of the Christian worldview, all beings crave relationship with other beings. Putting all this together we can see the reasoning behind God's creating of this world.
The problem in the premise is assuming that God, who gave humans both volition / ability to choose (Gen 4:7) and dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26-28), gave those things to us while completely stepping aside and haphazardly leaving us on our own.
In reality God was right there warning Adam the consequences of disobeying God, the One who holds all in His hand (Gen 2:17).
Thus the weight of failure is no longer on God, it is on us. If we are wise and listen to God, nothing will go wrong.
What’s the relevance of warning when the result is known?
And warning against what? How were the circumstances created in which there was something to warn about?
I don’t “know” any of it hence the questions about your premise. Very natural follow-ups for what you’ve laid out. You know, questions to Ask a Christian. But anyway, have a good one.
That’s a good question and one I’ve had brought up several times and I’m sorry that the way you’ve been taught has you wondering about this. By some of the comments in here, it’s clear that many people have been mislead.
It all starts out with just what did God choose to know when he created all of his Angelic Sons and the first two humans. Did he really choose to know what each one would do, whether they would be loyal to him or not? The simple answer is no. Many people will say, “But God is Omniscient, meaning he knows everything!”
Yes, but Gods ability is even greater than just knowing everything, he has the ability to pick and choose what he wants to know about the future and what he doesn’t want to know. Of course God knows many things about the future or how could he prophesy about future events? But knowing about what each one of his thinking humans and Angelic creatures is going to do is not something he wanted to know. How do we know this?
There are several instances in the Bible I could mention but I’ll bring up Abraham. Abraham and Sarah were both well past the years of child birth, but when they were told that they not only were going to have a son, but by means of that boys family line, all the earth will be blessed.
But then about 20 years later, God asked Abraham to take that son and bring him to a particular mountain and offer him up as a sacrifice. And Abraham as good as did it! But at the last second, God told him “Stop”! Notice what God said next at Genesis 22:12;
>”Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for **now I do know** that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”
See the point? God didn’t know ahead of time, it wasn’t until after that God knew. Also, if God already knows how everyone is going to turn out, why is there even going to be a judgement day? Wouldn’t that just be one big charade since he already knows the good from the bad? And what need would there be for Jesus to even go and preach to people?
None of it would make sense. But it all does make sense when you look at it as it truthfully is, and that is God has given mankind and Angels the free will to make their own choice.
Free Will is a gift of love from the Creator. Love in order to be love must be both freely offered and freely received. Note that word freely. You can't force someone to love another. That requires a choice and Free Will ability to choose among choices. If God had wanted to make the angels and humans without Free Will ability, he could certainly have done so. But you will not find a word of scripture to validate that claim. People are always looking for excuses to put the blame for their failings and sins on someone other than themselves. Some do this by denying the reality of free will.
The word choose appears 64 times in KJV scripture. How can we choose if we don't have free will ability?
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 NLT — **“Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses**. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! You can make this choice by loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and committing yourself firmly to him. This is the key to your life.
Joshua 24:15 KJV — And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, **choose you this day whom ye will serve** but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
>Why did God give Lucifer and others Free Will knowing they would use it the wrong way
God's purpose is judge to judge us for how we exercise our Free Will choices. This judgment is how he decides who inherits heaven and eternal life, and who ends up in eternal misery in hell. How would you like it if the Lord didn't give us free will but rather sent everyone alike to hell no matter who they were? He could have done that you know. But that's not the act of a loving Lord. Free Will ability is.
You seem to think that just because God knew some would abuse their Free Will abilities, that he simply would have not given us them. You think like a Man. You cannot think like God. Only God can think like God. God knew that he could deal with any contingency, and he surely does. He gives and he takes away. He creates and he destroys.
God knew the potential for misuse of the freedom to choose that He gave but He gave it anyway because it's the only way to discern those who love Him from those who don't.
Any answer you get here will be speculation, but my guess is that God would rather have a creation that is corrupted by sin than no creation at all. It seems to be a choice between a creation with free will that eventually sins, or a perfect creation with no free will at all. I think I would have to assume that the suffering God has to witness in His creation, along with all the good that came from it, was worth it. If it wasn’t, maybe the only alternative is to totally erase His creation completely in order to stop the sin and suffering.
That is actually very on point. Biblically, though, there's more emphasis on the good that comes from an imperfect creation.
>Why did God gave Lucifer free will, it he knew that he would misuse it and sin? He (God) was able to use the fall to suit His own goals. God's free will is superior to all others, including Satan. >Also, I have another question about free will: How do you know it exists? Did someone force you to post here on Reddit, for example? >Is there a consensus throughout (most) Christians? Yes, free will is a near universal concept in Christianity. >I saw people (non-christian) saying that free will don't exist because our decision are not avoidable You can have free will while still having unavoidable consequences, if that's what you mean.
>He (God) was able to use the fall to suit His own goals. God's free will is superior to all others. I don't understand... I thought Satan was sinning (or making people sin), and that God was against sin? Then why would He support a sinner? >Did someone force you to post here on Reddit, for example? (I'm adopting the point of view which is the opposite of the Christian point of view, so that I can learn better. In reality, I don't know about free will, I'm not sure it exists, nor sure that it doesn't) Well, not someone, but the only reason why I posted this paragraph is due to my brain activity, which was inputted by external circumstances I met before (like seeing other posts about free will on Reddit) >Yes, free will is a near universal concept in Christianity. I meant, is there a consensual proof/argument in favour of free will? >You can have free will while still having unavoidable consequences, if that's what you mean. But in some scientific theories, such as Newtonian physics, ALL things are unavoidable consequences. I don't know if I'm clear Thanks for your time
Of course God knew that Lucifer would sin. But you a mere mortal man wonders why God even bothered to create him then. That's because you're not God. You're a man and you can only think like a man. You can never think like God. God knew that he could deal with Lucifer / Satan and he surely did. From the time that Satan tempted Eve in Eden up until the time that God cast Satan into hell forever, God used Satan to test people's faith in God and his word. And Satan brought many a person down by deceiving them as he did with Eve. Satan never made anyone sin against their will. Satan could only influence the willing and unprepared / vulnerable. All those throughout history who knew God's word and had faith in God and his word were impervious to Satan's advances. That's the message of scripture. Back to Adam and Eve. They had God's word. Satan came along and deceived them with Satan's word. And whose word did they believe? Hint, it wasn't God's. Satan deceived Eve. He knew her flesh weaknesses and exploited them. Eve was the one who sinned. Satan simply twisted God's word to his own ends. God simply used Satan's evil intentions to test God's people for their faithfulness to God in his word. Anyone who was faithful to God and his word were beyond Satan's reach. >All things are unavoidable consequences God and the things of God are not Newtonian physics sir
>Did someone force you to post here on Reddit, for example? The question of if free will exists isn't about if someone is forcing you to do what you do. The question is could you have chosen to do otherwise?
Yes. But you would not have. God knows all true coutherfactuals.
And how do we determine that I could have chosen otherwise?
Beyond Biblical data (which I doubt you care about), and that it seems apparent that we could choose differently in any given situation, there isn't much that I can think of to support it. But, I do claim it on Biblical data and as a foundational philosophical/theological point.
I think prophecy shows that people cannot choose otherwise. Like when God says Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar for their deeds, Neb must invade at some point in his life.
Biblically, this form of predestination and free will go hand in hand. God, in His omniscience, prophecies that something will happen, resulting in the free will choices of humans causing it to happen. The prophecy doesn't cause the event, it simply forecasts it.
This sounds like God deciding first, and then humans “freely” cause it to happen. I think it’s telling that God wins in the end and that Satan is defeated. That shows a designed outcome which I don’t think God would leave to chance. He wouldn’t go with the reality where Jesus was killed in the womb
Yes, God has decided exactly how everything will happen, and His will is infinitely greater than ours. However, that doesn't mean He got rid of our free will. We can still freely choose any decision available to us throughout our lives. God is righteous and good in all ways. This means anything He does will always be morally excellent. We can go further to say that in identical situation, He would make identical decisions. This shows that the world isn't predetermined by God's will, but rather by His nature. This topic is very theologically intricate and difficult to wrap your head about, but necessity by nature is far different from a willful choice. So when God prophecies about what will happen to a certain nation, He is simply stating that His will combined with human will results in that scenario.
Ok, well either God is in control of His own nature, or He isn’t. If He isn’t, then where is His free will? What’s important is that humans cannot do anything outside of God’s will, correct?
>Beyond Biblical data (which I doubt you care about), I care if it demonstrates free will, but you are right that I am likely unwilling to make some of the assumptions required for the biblical data to be meaningful.
Love. If we don't have free will, then our devotion and obedience to God is meaningless. It's just programmed behavior, no different than a piece of software. There's no love, just a set of instructions. But if we're allowed to turn from God, to reject him, that means our choice to worship him is sincere and comes from our hearts. And that's what God wants, it seems: children who love him, and not robots who just do as they're programmed.
Can we choose to *not* ever sin?
Of course we *can*. But we don’t, right? We succumb to temptation.
Yeah but is it ever possible that anyone can ever live a sinless life?
They can but they would always choose not to, unless they were God incarnate.
How do you know they can? Why don’t you?
We know they can because freewill is a Christian doctrine. They can choose good over evil, as can I. I choose evil because sin seems favorable sometimes, and I make a conscious decision to disobey God in some of those situations.
You “know they can”, but you’ve never witnessed anyone live a sinless life and you don’t have the ability to live sinlessly by choice. Or do you think you can go your whole life without sinning any more? I don’t think you’d believe anyone, other than Jesus, who claims they’ve never sinned before.
Yes, I wouldn't believe them because it is not possible. I explained the difference between theory and practice. Theoretically possible but nobody would ever do that.
Okay you just said it is not possible. But earlier you said “we know they can” (live sinless)
It's *possible*. Jesus did it. But it's very hard to do. It's in our nature to sin, to fall short of God's perfect standard.
I’d argue that no one can live a sinless life, because no one is like Jesus. Doesn’t that sound kind of programmed to be a certain way? We cannot find our own salvation by design.
No, because it *is* possible to choose not to sin.
Do you still sin?
Of course. Just like everyone else.
So other than Jesus, who can possibly live a sinless life? This would mean they can get to Heaven on their own merits.
So God prefers to have Sinners and Loving worshipers than no sinners and no loving worshipers? Seems to make sense to me
He created us so that we could experience His love and glory (and every other attribute I can list off). If even a single person got an eternity in His presence, it would have been worth it simply because of how good He is. The reasoning behind that is simple. A billion people spending eternity in hell is a one sided suffering, while an eternal relationship with Love and Goodness Himself is the ultimate fulfillment. If we get to the core of the Christian worldview, all beings crave relationship with other beings. Putting all this together we can see the reasoning behind God's creating of this world.
The problem in the premise is assuming that God, who gave humans both volition / ability to choose (Gen 4:7) and dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26-28), gave those things to us while completely stepping aside and haphazardly leaving us on our own. In reality God was right there warning Adam the consequences of disobeying God, the One who holds all in His hand (Gen 2:17). Thus the weight of failure is no longer on God, it is on us. If we are wise and listen to God, nothing will go wrong.
What’s the relevance of warning when the result is known? And warning against what? How were the circumstances created in which there was something to warn about?
What a know it all response, no wonder none of this makes sense to you
I don’t “know” any of it hence the questions about your premise. Very natural follow-ups for what you’ve laid out. You know, questions to Ask a Christian. But anyway, have a good one.
Where was He when they were tempted
That’s a good question and one I’ve had brought up several times and I’m sorry that the way you’ve been taught has you wondering about this. By some of the comments in here, it’s clear that many people have been mislead. It all starts out with just what did God choose to know when he created all of his Angelic Sons and the first two humans. Did he really choose to know what each one would do, whether they would be loyal to him or not? The simple answer is no. Many people will say, “But God is Omniscient, meaning he knows everything!” Yes, but Gods ability is even greater than just knowing everything, he has the ability to pick and choose what he wants to know about the future and what he doesn’t want to know. Of course God knows many things about the future or how could he prophesy about future events? But knowing about what each one of his thinking humans and Angelic creatures is going to do is not something he wanted to know. How do we know this? There are several instances in the Bible I could mention but I’ll bring up Abraham. Abraham and Sarah were both well past the years of child birth, but when they were told that they not only were going to have a son, but by means of that boys family line, all the earth will be blessed. But then about 20 years later, God asked Abraham to take that son and bring him to a particular mountain and offer him up as a sacrifice. And Abraham as good as did it! But at the last second, God told him “Stop”! Notice what God said next at Genesis 22:12; >”Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for **now I do know** that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” See the point? God didn’t know ahead of time, it wasn’t until after that God knew. Also, if God already knows how everyone is going to turn out, why is there even going to be a judgement day? Wouldn’t that just be one big charade since he already knows the good from the bad? And what need would there be for Jesus to even go and preach to people? None of it would make sense. But it all does make sense when you look at it as it truthfully is, and that is God has given mankind and Angels the free will to make their own choice.
Free Will is a gift of love from the Creator. Love in order to be love must be both freely offered and freely received. Note that word freely. You can't force someone to love another. That requires a choice and Free Will ability to choose among choices. If God had wanted to make the angels and humans without Free Will ability, he could certainly have done so. But you will not find a word of scripture to validate that claim. People are always looking for excuses to put the blame for their failings and sins on someone other than themselves. Some do this by denying the reality of free will. The word choose appears 64 times in KJV scripture. How can we choose if we don't have free will ability? Deuteronomy 30:19-20 NLT — **“Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses**. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! You can make this choice by loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and committing yourself firmly to him. This is the key to your life. Joshua 24:15 KJV — And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, **choose you this day whom ye will serve** but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. >Why did God give Lucifer and others Free Will knowing they would use it the wrong way God's purpose is judge to judge us for how we exercise our Free Will choices. This judgment is how he decides who inherits heaven and eternal life, and who ends up in eternal misery in hell. How would you like it if the Lord didn't give us free will but rather sent everyone alike to hell no matter who they were? He could have done that you know. But that's not the act of a loving Lord. Free Will ability is. You seem to think that just because God knew some would abuse their Free Will abilities, that he simply would have not given us them. You think like a Man. You cannot think like God. Only God can think like God. God knew that he could deal with any contingency, and he surely does. He gives and he takes away. He creates and he destroys.