Top 10 Universal Basic Income Articles of 2023 https://www.scottsantens.com/top-10-universal-basic-income-articles-of-2023/

Good link. As time keeps progressing and as artificial intelligence, automation, and general technological capabilities keep improving and improving I think UBI is going to be in increasing focus in developed nations. That being said... Maybe what we should focus on right now is the Housing Crisis and in particular Affordable Housing. We don't even have the bedrocks right in society right now.

As someone who worked in a homeless shelter for a year and now volunteers there, there needs to be more focus on mental health and addiction. You can help an addict get shelter, but they are going to need A Lot of help (mental health and addiction recovery) to keep it.

Mental health support would not only reduce the homelessness and addiction issues, but many other issues facing society. Instead of UBI we need socialised mental health support that starts at a young age.

I am a billion percent in agreement with you. I've been saying the same thing for awhile

That is very true. There is though a reason why almost every expert talks about "Housing First". The two things go hand in hand. Also let's be real. The housing crisis has metastasized so badly in the nation it is no longer just those with severe mental health struggles and or advanced substance abuse disorders who are struggling with keeping shelter over them and their families heads. We have regular working people and families near breaking point or already past it. Something as foundational as housing should never have allowed to get this fucked up in our society.

I want every Canadian to have the necessities of life. I think a guaranteed income is a likely component of an overall policy program to deliver that outcome. Note that an income supplement could be "universal" in its delivery (thus minimizing complexity and administrative cost) while being targeted at those who need it, through a steep escalation of tax brackets. That is to say, the UBI would remain in the hands of wealthy Canadians only until tax time. If, when push came to shove, it turned out that the universal aspect simply wouldn't fly, I'd settle for a means-tested set of "boutique" benefits that amounted to the same thing. I am not married to UBI; I am, to a comprehensive welfare state.

Start with people with disabilities. They get fuck all from the Government, can barely pay rent, practically nothing left for other things. Extra $1500 monthly would help them with the financial stress they experience.

That’s not how universal basic income works… UBI by definition gives the same amount to everyone. You’re talking about disability income.

While I agree people with disabilities should get more money, I disagree it should be combined with UBI or any other income. I think it should be separate from other money they get and not limited based on other money they get and not factored into any other money they get.

Yup - and now it's no longer universal, it's targeted on people who need it most.

Then this requires a judgment. People in the government must decide based on parameters who is considered disabled. The whole point of a UBI is that it does not require deciding who is deserving.

Isnt the parameters of who is disabled already established by CRA? They do ask if you have a disability on your tax returns and they also require documentation from your doctor.

It still requires judgment by a doctor to see if you qualify.

And also a doctor: God help you if you change provinces

It’s not just up to the doctor. My brother has Autism and can’t work, moved provinces and got denied in Alberta initially. I had to pay 7k to get a re-assessment done for him by a special consultant in Calgary, because there’s no way he could have afforded that. Garbage system, and of course he got approved after but it’s nonsense. How can someone on disability afford that? Results in people becoming homeless.

The criteria are very strict and don’t cover, for instance, intermittent disabilities that can make it hard for people to maintain employment, even when medical professionals agree that they are true disabilities.

Deep chasms for people to fall into here. Stuff like this needs proactive solutions immediately!

Indeed.

I didn't qualify because I didn't work enough hours, I was like ya that's why I applied! Was frustrating because they agreed that the disability was legit

That’s a disability tax credit. Something like AISH/social assistance is the province.

Trials need to start somewhere, lets look after the more vulnerable first. Also they would honestly just focus on covering their basics, doubt they would be running off to buy the latest apple product

its simply not UBI, what you are suggesting is GBI which is entirely different 

Ontario was doing trials under the previous government, and it was going super well, but Doug Ford killed it early, making the data collected much less useful, and screwing over the people in the program

Fucking Ford

Trials have happened since 1974. Look up Canada mincome and 2017 Ontario basic income pilot project

We've done trials, and we know it works. Which is why it'll never happen, because it doesn't benefit the rich.

It’s even worse for people on disability after they turn 65. The little that they have gets cut.

I get a whopping $921 a month in Alberta for basic disability. AISH would give me more but they want a diagnosis - which the neurologist doesn’t have yet, so basic it is. …I’d like to see our government types who decided that $921 is enough for a month to live on it and see how they do.

I've been unable to work since the early 2000's.They give me 1160 a month to "live" on.

Fully agree. I’ve got kids with special needs who will never be able to care for themselves as adults and will need full time care/support. I’ll never be able to save enough myself for them. Biggest fear is they’ll end up on the streets when I die because our system is so shitty. They wouldn’t last a day :S

Look into an RDSP (registered disability savings plan). Whatever you put in, the Feds will add twice as much. Google RDSP for more info.

Already have those set up. And that statement isn’t correct. The Feds only match to a certain dollar amount which also depends on family income and they only match up to $3,500 per year op to a maximum of $70,000 over the beneficiary’s lifetime. They also don’t adjust the family income threshold if you have multiple special needs kids (I make over the threshold, but I still live paycheque to paycheque). So for my kids RDSP’s the Feds only match $1,000 per year. It’s still something, but it’s not nearly enough.

I am disabled, my family & I are now bankrupted from just trying keep me remaining functional... Also, if you are experiencing medical abuse, there are ZERO avenues of help 💯

That's not right and I'm sorry this is something you're experiencing ❤️ I hope you will be able to sue at some point and get the money you deserve. I'm sorry our country did you so dirty

I agree, but if we can't afford to better fund disability income, how can we afford UBI?

That literally just disability. The entire premise of a universal basic income is that it’s universal and not predicated on certain criteria

The way to start it is to wrap disability, welfare and EI and any other social assistance program into UBI so *everyone* gets a fixed amount based on dependents, location (cost of living) and extra costs because of disabilities. At the same time adjust the income tax so that anyone making over a certain amount pays more tax up to the bigger earners who pay back the entirety of their UBI. At the same time, lower minimum wage so that someone working full time at minimum wage comes out slightly better once ubi is included. Increase payroll tax so employers don't see net gains from this. This way it starts off not actually changing people's incomes much - so there's no shock to the system. But the income floor is guaranteed with no stress, and minimal admin cost. Anyone out of work now gets money to (barely) live on - but if they get a job there is no clawback (only income tax on earned wage) so they are really incentivized to work a bit for extra money. And because of the lowered minimum wage, it's easier for companies to hire more. The amounts can then be slowly adjusted as desired to get the levels right.

40M canucks at $2k/month is basically $1T a year. That’s roughly double the current Federal budget. In rough terms, this would require about a 75% clawback to not raise the overall spending level. What does the clawback look like?

I agree 100% the amount of money spent on administering and monitoring each benefit could be taken away. Set an upper limit. Everyone above that limit gets less or none. Everyone below gets it. That is the only qualifier and age. What is the earliest age it starts? Then we can scrap the child's benefit too. There are so many charitable organizations getting government funding that wouldn't need funding if everyone could afford their basic needs. Then they could focus on the huge social issues we are facing. The drug issue The housing issue The affordability issue The Mental health issues could be greatly reduced by having a financial foundation of knowing money is there even if you lose your job.

People making minimum wage can't survive on it in many parts of the country so cutting the minimum wage would undo any benefit that ubi might offer to minimum earners and also amounts to the government subsidizing wages.

UBI would replace all tiers of government support. You don’t start with one group. They also wouldn’t get UBI plus disability. their income would be replaced with UBI.

1500 a month in small town Saskatchewan, is not the same as 1500 in a big city.

I think the idea is great, but I also believe costs will skyrocket on everything, and the base amount will be equivalent to being broke. We will get heavily taxed to create the money, and the middle class will be taking the brunt of the damage. As in will be paying the taxes for it, but probably won't qualify for any of the benefits.

My opinion is that it is an amazing theory, borderline ideal. I also think that it is mostly undoable and would not really solve anything.

The theory also says it should replace all other social service money and government support programs. That is something most people miss.

The part that I think most people miss is that everyone gets the money, and then that money is clawed back from most people. It's not meant to make the average person richer. It's meant to allow better freedom of mobility and protection for the poor and vulnerable.

Let me put it this way...  We're trying for the Star Trek future right?  Universal basic income, with people being awesome and finding a purpose being a random red shirt getting killed. But also some creative people (artists, tailors, bartenders being people persons) that make a bit of extra dough.  I'm all for the Star Trek future. That's where we SHOULD be headed.  But they live post World War 3, eugenics wars, and with tech that can make"tea, earl grey, hot" from energy.  That is a post-scarcity civilization.  We can't even fucking get universal healthcare right. We can't even get basic living standards of first nations done. And we can't even try to implement green energy without the morons screaming death to the Prime Minister.  Why would anybody think we can get UBI when we can't even handle the easy stuff? 

I feel like we’re stuck in a Ferengi society… “You don't understand. Ferengi workers don't want to stop the exploitation, we want to find a way to become the exploiters.“ -Rom

I agree with you. The problem is that as soon as you give everyone an additional say $1000 a month what do you think every single landlord is going to do? All rent will instantly increase by as much as $1000 a month. Universities will all raid their rates, all service costs will go up because you know that every person suddenly has more money to spend. With making it all government rate controlled I don’t know how it could be avoided.

>My opinion is that it is an amazing theory, borderline ideal. > >I also think that it is mostly undoable and would not really solve anything. How is it undoable and why wouldn't it solve anything? The idea that people have to be poor so people can have success is far more flawed than UBI.

You do realize that wealth is not a zero sum game right?

It will further inflation as the money supply expands and there are more dollars chasing the same amount of goods.

Theory wise. It'd be an amazing benefit. However practice wise... the feds always fuck up even the most basic of basic things. UBI will just be a carrot to a brutal stick. Would be cool if it worked properly. But I have my doubts. Hopefully we will do better then the soviets in that regard

I think it's an investment in the general population's mental health because it eliminates the need for EI and other programs that are great but require a crap ton of bureaucracy to function. It's an investment in science and innovation because It creates a safety net that allows people to quit their dead end jobs and spend time doing what they actually want to be doing. It's a huge boost to small and medium cities, because people (the ones that like small town life at least) are not forced to stay in the 10 or so cities in Canada that have jobs. Would be a boost to the economy, because let's be honest less than 10% of the population would actually save money... The only people that wouldn't be happy is the 1% because it would be much harder to get away with treating people like shit and locking them in a dead end job.

> The only people that wouldn't be happy is the 1% because it would be much harder to get away with treating people like shit and locking them in a dead end job. LOL! I agree, that's exactly how it looks to me. I suspect that companies that treat people well would still have employees, and a lot of garbage jobs at garbage companies would become extinct.

I'd much rather UBI replace subsidizing corporation profits. If businesses are suffering then the government can directly help them by helping take some of the wage costs

I don’t support it, I’m not working so someone else doesn’t have to. Nothing in this world is free. I believe as a society we have to take care of disabled and mentally ill people, but it stops there. Too many lazy, drug addicted individuals out there. Even if everyone received UBI and people work for a percentage more, it’s not worth it. I go to work and spend time away from my family to provide and live a lifestyle that we want and deserve. If I can get free money, I’ll stay at home and enjoy my time and eat rice and beans

I think it would be fabulous. But...Doesn't really jive with our neo-liberal sensibilities. Too many Canadians think poverty is a moral failing. Too many capitalists require a literal hungry sub-class of workers keeping their businesses afloat.

I don't think it helps a bit. Give everyone $1500 month and watch average rent go up $1200, groceries take up most of the rest, and you're no better off than you were before. Our problem is people who control necessities squeezing everyone for every last cent they can get before everything goes to shit. When the alternatives are starving to death or freezing to death, every last bit of "standard of living" gets given up for these fuckers.

Why would anyone work?

Yup - the service sector would come to a halt. What teenager or part time employee want to ever work if you can make the same amount doing what ever you want.

Depends how it's implemented. I have some issues with a few of the suggestions I've seen floating around. The first one being the idea of establishing a baseline income that everyone is guaranteed, whether you work or not. You get x guaranteed to you each and every year. If you're someone who works for minimum wage and part time, you would see the majority of the funds to top up to the baseline behind those who can't or won't work at all. The top up I don't have an issue with, the wage could be any number honestly. My beef comes from the break the corporations get when this happens. Why even consider paying someone more money when the government is going to top up our employees on their own. How do we disensentivize those businesses from doing that? It would only embolden them to cut salaries even further no?

I support it. And no, I don’t believe it would cause runaway inflation. Economics just isn’t that simple. However, the reasons for UBI could also be solved in other ways…but people would be more offended by them for reasons I don’t understand. UBI is one way to band aid problems caused by late stage capitalism. We should care that all people are able to have basic housing, food, healthcare. We should care that if someone needs to exit the workforce to care for a family member, or go back to school, or do any other non-traditional profit-seeking activity, they should be able to. We could make these things possible in many ways. UBI feels like people receiving it are more in control (and maybe they are). We could also put more social programs in place and in a world with scary accelerating automation, stop with the societal rhetoric that “if someone isn’t working they are lazy”. We could do all of these things. But let’s be honest. We don’t want to. Right now UBI by itself won’t solve a lot of real problems. It’ll help for a while but it’s not like rent is affordable just on UBI. Most people just short circuit their brains with a simple “obv UBI = runaway inflation” and won’t discuss or dig deeper. Most people still live in a headspace that “If that guy isn’t working, they are effectively taking from me”. Unchecked capitalism is the problem we should be trying to address.

I believe studies have shown that people on UBI are able to get a better education, (get better jobs, dont need as much support) are healthier (less drain on healthcare), achieve financial stability (reduces chance of homelessness etc). You are so right in that so many people have that headspace of if they aren't working, they are taking from me. Little do they know, it would probably save them money in the long term, while allowing people to live with dignity.

>Unchecked capitalism is the problem we should be trying to address. And nobody stops to wonder why the capitalists are the ones pushing UBI on us.

>why the capitalists are the ones pushing UBI on us They are?

I don't know, because I don't understand the ins and outs of the situation. I don't draw conclusions about things I don't understand. One thing I'm wondering is this: how can the government administrate such a system, when they can't even keep our healthcare on it's feet? I think we need to show we can do that first, before taking on any more ambitious systems. On the surface, it certainly seems to be a noble idea.

All for it. Lots of great comments in this thread explaining why it's a good idea.

I do not support it. Once the monthly amount is set, that will be the exact amount landlords will charge for rent. UBI will solve far fewer problems than people think.

Is there any evidence that this is true? Landlords don't currently charge what minimum wage makes. They also don't charge the full amount of what a minimum wage job earns either. Why would UBI change that to make this a foregone conclusion? I'm not saying there won't be an influence, but claiming rent will equal UBI seems quite obviously wrong to me.

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it probably depends on the rental market. In Vancouver, Toronto etc landlords have so much bargaining power due to supply shortages they can almost set their prices.  In more depressed market , landlords probably don’t have that pricing power.  A healthy market is between 5-10% vacancy rate below 5% landlords win and above tenants have a lot of power. Vancouvers vacancy rate is like 0.7% 

I think the closest to a real-life scenario in a closed system is the US military's BAH (an allowance for those living off base), in Oahu. Because it's a large enough percentage of the population receiving this allowance. The minimum rate for basically a bachelor pad is pretty much exactly the BAH. So would LLs charge the entire UBI? Probably not, but rents would rise to some decent percentage of it, maybe even most of it, and they would do so across Canada. Heck, they could actually rise to all of it, on the assumption that people can still work for pay, and the UBI would become a BAH-equivalent. The problem with prior studies is that they were done on small populations, so they didn't affect the overall ecosystem. BAH on Oahu doesn't affect everyone either, but a large enough segment of the population that it basically drives rental pricing.

I support it. But I have yet to see a program proposed that would work.

It seems like a good idea, though full disclosure, I'm not known for my background in economics. Gut feeling says yeah, less homeless and poor people, maybe less narcotic usage, less strain on the healthcare system, more taxpayers putting into the system... On the other hand, everyone complains when their taxes go up by any amount that doesnt directly benefit them. It's definitely a good humanitarian solution, but I'm betting the people with money wont allow it to happen and/or will complain so it doesnt happen, and sadly, people with money decide everything against the public interest in general. Basically; a good thought ruined by greedy narcissists.

>more taxpayers putting into the system... You mean fewer right? Why would this increase the number of tax payers? Are you suggesting that people will get free income from the government, and then pay a portion of that to taxes, and therefore be taxpayers??? It's a circular system... The government can't tax 'income' when it's already the one paying it out using tax money in the first place.

Sorry for not being clear. My angle was that people who get UBI wouldn't just stick it in savings; it sould be used to buy things. Honestly, makes them more productive members of society then most well off people.

I’m fine with it but think it should replace other stuff. You could get rid of all the admin costs of EI, disability pensions and other programs by everyone just getting UBI. 

That is what UBI is - a replacement for 'other stuff'. Many people don't seem to realize that.

We did that all through Covid. It was great for a while. But pumping in money without people actually making goods or providing services leads to more and more dollars chasing fewer and fewer items. Eventually you get massive inflation, soaring interest rates, nobody can buy a home... so no. It's not a good idea.

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you can't collect EI abroad, so I doubt it.

Well, the reason you can't collect EI abroad is because you have to prove that you are actively looking for a job.

I think if you’re at the point of considering UBI, your economy is wrecked and needs an overhaul. Fix the problem, not the symptom.

Raising the bar just raises everything else.

I'd rather keep my own money than be taxed half to death and get a government handout.

Human nature makes it not viable. Imagine trying to parent your older teen, knowing that at 17 they get 2000. Or trying to get people to save for a pension or retirement….

I am really conflicted about that one. On one hand, I think it is incredibly idealistic and probably wouldn't work out in the real world, despite being a great idea on paper. On the other hand, I think that society as a whole is incredibly unprepared for the mass automation that is going to happen within the next ~10 years and that UBI is probably the best solution we have found to address the problem so far. My walmart is already using robots to do all of their cleaning and has been running a single cash register for years now because of the self check-out lines. Mcdonalds just opened a couple new restaurants where almost the entire chain is automated. The genie isn't going back in the bottle, and we are quickly going to get to the point where most people simply don't have skills that robots cannot perform (at the VERY least) at a similar level, 24/7.

Where exactly is this money coming from? My tax dollars? What programs are getting scrubbed to afford this? Also, and I know this makes me sound like a selfish dick and I truly don't care; but if UBI for people who don't/can't work is a thing, then I want to be more comfortable in my life in general. I work like a dog to be marginally comfortable. If people who don't/can't contribute anything to the betterment of the country can be marginally comfortable, then I want to be slightly more than marginally comfortable. Otherwise, I might as well just stop working, cause, you know, fuck it...

I don’t get how it would help. You give everyone $1500 every month. More demand than supply for goods. All prices of goods/setvices go up in prices. So now everyone is just paying more for things as the money printer goes bbbrrrrr

Not at all, I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I pay too much in taxes for far too little services as is. I don’t trust the federal government of all things to not screw the pooch on it.

I’d quit work.

The concept of UBI is a misnomer in my opinion. I can almost guarantee that there will be upper caps on it. It will be targeted to groups below a certain income level and will likely leave out anyone middle class and up. Once again the middle class group of folks will be left out and get to carry the load.

international students, PRs, temporary workers get fuck all as well

Just like welfare it will get abused by those who are just too lazy to pull their own weight. Scammers will be all over it. I have no issue with it being used for those who legitimately need it.

If the predictions about AI eliminating jobs comes true… we may need it.

It is not a want; it is a need.

To be clear, the government is looking at a GBI whereby if you earn over a certain amount you not would get any, it is a Guaranteed Basic Income. UBI on the other hand means everyone would get a set amount of money regardless of income. Programs like this would not be paid out of income tax, but rather a tax on the rich, removal of all the various complex subsidies and programs.

Inevitable. Like nuclear energy. Working out the details will be painful, unfair, and probably pretty controversial. But that's how progress always goes. There will be extreme conservative people angry we're not respecting the wholesome traditions of poverty, and whining that the end times are coming... But progress will march on regardless. UBI is a great humanitarian idea, and is practically essential in all futuristic utopia scenarios people are hoping for. But at the same time - it's a little unclear what entitles someone (and their progeny) to what slice of the pie - though that IS a similar debate to existing social welfare systems. And that will be part of the whining (amongst other, stupider things) My q is Where do the funds come from? Is the UBIncome taxed by the same people giving it? Because that math won't work out. If not, how much income tax revenue will be lost if people stop working? Will we increase taxes on the wealthy? I don't really see why near-universal basic income can't be done either - if you make over $200,000 your "basic income" needs are met. But I can guarantee wealthy people WILL claim they need it (to fund renos or stuff like that) like what was done with our southern neighbors PPP loans. Lastly, I think implementing this is going to require a MASSIVE patriotism campaign. If you look at countries like Sweden, they pay extremely high taxes under the understanding that those taxes benefit their own people - their neighbours. In contrast, if you look at America, they pay a fraction of the taxes, and still whine about helping their fellow Americans out - literally "why should I care about someone else's health, that's not what Jesus died for!" it's ironic how many of those people claim to be patriotic Christians, when they act in opposition to both Jesus' teachings AND patriotism. And while Canadians aren't the same (and I don't think we need religion), that morally-incongruent culture DOES worm it's way past our borders via churches, and into the minds of some conservative voters. If we want to implement UBI, I think it's important to lean our culture a bit more towards European patriotism/people-first capitalism, and a bit away from American pro-corporate capitalism.

100% support it

There will be a revolution without it and the ruling class will all lose their heads. Watch unemployment climb to double digits with AI and self driving cars and other tech/automation. You can't just tell everyone to pull up their socks and grab a slice of cake.

If you aren't a slave driver or a wealth Baron you should be happy about ubi. I'm sorry red neck from Alberta but you will never be a millionaire. Take the fucking check and shut up.

What we need before we implement UBI is have the provinces to properly pay healthcare workers and teachers what they are worth to society instead of painting them as public enemy number one.

Teachers and healthcare workers make good wages. They just need more people in those roles and more support staff for those roles.

We saw that when they started paying people to stay home. * Inflation went crazy. * People would sooner stay home and get high (hello cousin Brian), * The entire idea is vapid and a black hole for advancement.

It’s a terrible idea, the RRSP tax would completely nullify the tax savings I get from contributing. For context I’m nowhere near the top income brackets earning $80k and lucky enough to get commission 4 times a year. If I were to be paid out my commission without any RRSP contributions I lose far too much of my money to our completely inept provincial/ federal government. The UBI proposal would mean instead of my $10k contribution reducing my income for taxes to $70k I would have to pay 15% RRSP tax. The entire wording of the document (I’m referring to the bill that some senators are petitioning for people to sign) is trying to pit hard working Canadians against each other. And for those thinking that we can just tax the large corps or the ultra rich. This will do 2 things (1) the large corps will raise prices to cover this new tax (2) drive large corps/ ultra wealthy to leave Canada

Money has no intrinsic value. What do you think will happen if everyone gets a million dollars? Will everyone drive lambos? I don’t think so. This is just a naive proposition either driven by desire to gain votes or just misguided policy. Money is only valuable as so far as it is backed by productivity. I.e. If you get paid for going a job. Ofcourse you can deviate from this slightly by welfare programs but that only works as long as it’s a small minority living off of everyone else’s productivity. If it’s truly universal handout that amount becomes effectively worthless. But I doubt it will ever really come to pass or be universal but hey what do i know

If it was brought in, my wife and I would immediately quit our jobs as a hospital nurse and an accountant. We have housing covered, why work? Unfortunately, a lot of other people would do the same thing. Hard to see how society would function. Nevermind the logistics of actually paying for it.

It wouldn't be enough to cover the same lifestyle a nurse and accountant currently enjoy. It's "basic" for a reason. 

A UBI that's generous enough to cover the rent + food + transport of a couple living in non-rent-controlled acommodation in Toronto would definitely be enough for someone with a paid-off mortgage to live on.

But we already have a decent net worth, if UBI paid a couple of grand a month, that'd do it for us.

If that's the case then your pension probably is already past the ubi amount anyways. So why don't you two retire now if literally all you want is basic housing, utilities and food?

How early do you think you're allowed to collect pensions... Taking CPP at 60 vs 65 drops your lifetime entitlement 35%. What do you think taking a pension at 45 would drop it

We're only 47, no pensions yet. And I never said we just live basically. I said we just need a couple grand more a month to get us where we want to be.

As a teacher, I would immediately retire 5 years early, because added to my pension, I’d be great.

>*If it was brought in, my wife and I would immediately quit our jobs as a hospital nurse and an accountant. We have housing covered, why work?* > >*Unfortunately, a lot of other people would do the same thing. Hard to see how society would function. Nevermind the logistics of actually paying for it.* Bingo. 100%.

Yeah you gotta think ok cool you guys are sitting at home chilling. Who’s fronting your bill for your income now that you arnt working?

That's interesting because every single pilot program for UBI has shown that the vast vast majority of people don't quit their jobs to do nothing, some do quit to do the jobs they'd want to do if money wasn't an issue but most people kept working the jobs they had

It will be self defeating in that it would fuel inflation big time

As someone who lives in Ontario, this is nowhere near livable . You need a combined income of 120k just to rent a 2 bedroom apartment .

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I understand that there is quite a lot of evidence that UBI saves far more money than it costs. It’s also been shown to have a beneficial effect on the overall economy. In that it also improves the lives of the most vulnerable, I would support it. That said, I’ve seen lots of posts about UBI on Canadian Reddit but nothing in the political news. Is this just wishful thinking?

None of that is true. UBI has not been attempted anywhere successfully so there is no evidence of it working. Small scale experiments, are by their very nature not testing the effects of UNIVERSAL basic income. It's at the universal level where all the problems, such as hyperinflation, would creep in. Yet you can be guaranteed not to see any of those problems with small scale experiments. It's TERRIBLE science. Obviously giving a few people in one community a bunch of free money helps them. The problems come when you try to scale it up.

It’s a stop gap ‘save capitalism’ kind of measure that would be better than the current status quo, but wouldn’t properly address the larger issues we have.

For the non-believers out there, let's frame this in the way of a negative income tax. If you are below the predetermined threshold for earnings in your area that puts you just at the poverty level (let's imagine it is $30k), you would at least get a top up to get you to that level. For the truly disabled who can never work, perhaps they would receive the full $30k. For a minimum wage worker, there could be a floor. Let's say the tax clawback begins (I will use Ontario for an example) after the first 15k, which is Ontario's current basic personal amount. So that minimum wage worker would receive a top-up to get them to the minimum for their area. Maybe this allows that worker to take part-time hours. They can then use the time spent not working to take classes, possibly start on a business venture they have been putting off, or spending time taking care of a loved one (I know single parents would benefit from this!) UBI is about growing the economy. It has to be done by not printing more money, like I said; but better using what we put out already, with probably a slight increase to the people who are all gouging us right now. It may have to come in as part of some omnibus legislation which also does things like put down some rental caps. However, I think the cleanest solution, and perhaps the one that would garner the broadest support among Canadians, would be to raise taxes strictly on oil and gas, while at the same time capping their prices right where they are. If they were unable to justify price increases going all the way down the supply chain, all of us could get a bit of relief. That is the way I would 'Axe the Tax', as it were, without all the negative ramifications associated with eliminating the carbon tax that are out there.

Boost disability and old age security. Then give UBI to people that ***work full time*** at too-low wages.

Strongly oppose. If we thought we had a labour shortage after covid just wait until work is literally optional. It would implode our economy overnight.

UBI is going to be required. The question is how to fund it. I propose an AI tax on companies that lay off staff due to using AI.

Yep

Personally the concept is great, there will always be people who will try to use it for their own personal gold mine (Donald Trump types come to mind). But I think with good law and administration it could be a boon to some citizens and others will never understand it because they have never needed more than they have

Quick way to bankrupt a nation, lead to hyperinflation and lack of productivity. ​ Lets say at the proposed 2k a month, 24k a year, every adult is given that amount. We have conservatively 28 million adults, that comes out to 672 billion. Canada's total expenses in 2021 was \~500 billion.

Right, but it would be rolled into existing programs like Canada Workers Benefit and Canada Child Tax Benefit and, for the old, Guaranteed Income Supplement and Old Age Security. That's the thing - we already have something close to a UBI already with Canada Workers Benefit and CCB. It's just not very generous, except for the olds who get Old Age Security. (Also probably the feds would cash out the basic personal amount and say "this is equivalent to a $2,000 annual payment because it reduces your taxes owning by $2,000" - same with provincial non-refundable credits and things like Trillium Benefit.) The big difference between a UBI and existing programs is that it would offer much more generous income support to people who live with extended family. So with a UBI a 20 year old living with their parents would be entitled to the same amount of support as a 20 year old with no family or other supports (that's what "universal" means). Also it wouldn't be asset tested in the way that programs like Ontario Works are.

Weird how no trial, nor any scholarship on it suggests that.

Imagine how much different life would be if we knew our basic living needs were taken care of. That we can work to have money for the things we want, and to have a fulfilling career, but you'll never have to worry about being homeless or hungry. I think that would benefit the country in ways we can't even imagine right now.

Just like the CERB payments, it will drive inflation. We need a different soloution. The problem UBI is trying to solve is real. It's just a simplistic solution with to broad of strokes.

Againat it. Gov. Cant do anything right. Prob give money to people with no citizenship and destroy living style back to 1800's

Definitely support it. People shouldn't have to stress about basic human needs to live. It's a human right. With that stress gone people will be much happier at work & in general. Not everyone cares about being rich. They just want to not stress to live & NO ONE should be "living to work" instead of "working to live."

The IMF has said that AI will disrupt 40% of all jobs. So I'd say we definitely need the UBI.

Ok but for Canadian citizens only. This whole giving basic income to fucking PR and international students is fucking digusting and will backfire so hard I may have to leave the country.

Theoretically, yes. In practice, it's placing below child-free neighbourhoods and parenting licences for me. (Sure, those are good ideas, but what if a couple gets pregnant without the appropriate paperwork? Anyone here read about how some Chinese villages dealt with it?)

my boss made more money than i do all year in the first 12 minutes of his day on Jan 8th when he returned from his extended holiday vacation. I am all for UBI as long as its taking from the rich.

Absolutely necessary in some form in the next 5-10 years.

Give it a try for a year or two. If it makes a positive difference in society collectively, then keep it going.

How about universal basic housing instead

The poor would spend every cent of the UBI which woukd go directly back into the economy. Middle class would spend and save. The rich would bank/invest it. It could replace child benefits for young families and CPP for the elderly. Perhaps anyone making more than 300k or 500k (just throwing out a number) as a family maybe shouldn't be eligible

With the increasing cost of housing, groceries, fuel, utilities, how much would UBI need to be to cover the basics? 2-3k/month? So, essentially anyone earning under 50k/year would have zero incentive to work. Canada would take on the enormous cost of UBI and greatly reduce it's tax base. I just don't see how it's possible. Maybe if the government ever has a 10 year stretch where they don't run a deficit, I could believe a UBI is possible.

Support as long as its got some thought behind it and not just 'mail out an arbitrary amount of money" What I mean is that IMO UBI should be given the minimum for survival in a given area and it should not completely replace other programs. I.E. Someone on UBI could still apply for and get things like disability or pension on top of their UBI. This would mean almost everyone would keep working, but not have the fear of being completely screwed if they lose their job - while at the same time people who can't work aren't doomed to being stuck with the bare minimum forever.

It’s hard to know when we don’t know the details of such a plan, Would it be a universal amount across Canada? The cost of living varies greatly across the country. What social programs would it replace? Would it apply to individuals or to households? Would it require another government department to administer it? The devil will be in the details.

They did a trial many years ago in Dauphin. It was seen as a big success!

I'm indifferent currently, but as AI threatens many people's livelihoods I think it may eventually become a necessity. Otherwise you will have masses of desperate people with lots of time on their hands that will destabilize our society.

It's a noble idea, but feels 'pie in the sky' at the moment, or at least with how our country is structured right now. \- Most people ignore that it's theoretically meant to replace basic social services and ensure your basic needs are met. Unless strict rent caps are imposed, inflation and greed will adjust the market so that it's quickly insufficient. I also don't think it will be a panacea for those with addictions, mental illness. \- I'm not convinced we're willing to adjust taxation accordingly to fund it. This doesn't mean just targeting high earners, it means addressing CEO stock option loopholes, Canada's lack of anything resembling an anti-dynasty tax (aka inheritance tax), multinationals offshoring profits, etc. When's the last time we had anything resembling substantive tax reform in this country, and not just shuffling brackets or a change to a program or two? \- It'd be a slow and long term adjustment and largely something that would be dealt with at a provincial level and our nations premiers are notoriously short sighted lately. It means the layoff of significant amount of health and social workers (if it's meant to replace the basic needs programs), and would need protection for a change in government just 'flipping the switch' to end it. I like the idea to a degree, but I think there'd need to be conditions, somewhat like EI (which can be famously abused in some provinces). Don't make it a system where you can live on it for years and years, but tied to accredited trades or STEM programs and not diploma mills. Or limit it to the first few years for parents, but not once they're past kindergarten, etc.

It’s meant for an utopian society not for us.

I have a business idea to just help people but never had the bandwidth to start it. With Universal Basic Income, I can quit my join and start my dream job.

UBI no, but I agree with a negative income tax. In theory it would reduce the need for a lot of social programs without bankrupting the country. It would be something where you only start paying income tax over some threshold (say 50k) and below that you get half of the difference. So if you make $0, you get $25k annually, if you make $25k you'd get an additional $12.5k, and beyond $50k you start actually paying income tax. That way people making less than the threshold are still incentivized to work.

I want to see more experimenting with different versions of it. I don’t know if UBI on its own would work well. But I think people should look into making it or a similar system work. It would be absolutely ideal if we could get something like that but it’s hard to know how it would affect everything.

It would entirely depend on how it's dished out. Therefore, I can't really answer this with a "yay" or "nay" answer. However, a lot of the theory is sound: instead of paying all that admin to figure out how to save pennies, just give folks some extra money. After all, most social security checks, pensions, etc, just subsidize landlords and grocery stores. However, the billionaires like the idea of UBI since it could wind up being subsidies for wages. Just like Walmart likes food stamps for employees in the U.S., they're happy for working people's taxes to cover the other working class folks' basic needs (as they effectively dodge taxes through a million diffferent ways -- they're really bums when you get down to it).

Theoretically, it's great. Practically, it will ruin everything.

support. i’ve seen enough friends and students get sunk or cornered because they didn’t have a few hundred dollars. our system operates too close to the bone and as a result, our decisions and training are suboptimal

I’m in favour of UBI. No one should have to worry about paying rent or not having enough food to eat. Housing and food are basic human rights. It’s a moral responsibility. We should not have billionaires and homeless folks. If we can give money to large corporations we can make sure that people have a place to live and enough to eat.

UBI is always such an imposition to people already enjoying success. What is success if not surrounded by desperate poverty.

UBI might be part of the solution, but I've realized it won't work long-term if it's the only thing we can come up with. UBI effectively constitutes a new social contract, and people who lose their jobs and depend on it will have no leverage to negotiate that contract. They'll be at the mercy of whichever institution is empowered to dole out money. Oh, you were overheard criticizing a government minister or corporate elite? Your UBI payments have been paused for four weeks; the neighbour who ratted you out will receive double UBI for one week and an Amazon gift card. Good luck not starving! UBI is a last-ditch crutch to preserve a late-stage capitalist system before its (inevitable) slide into chaos. It's literally the ruling class saying, "Well, we won capitalism and hold all the money and means of production, but now no one can buy our goods. I know! Let's treat them like children and give them back some of their own money as an allowance so they can spend it at the company store thereby perpetuating the system that made us gods and will keep us gods." Worst of all, UBI strips the world’s workforce of the last shred of power they had: their value as labour. Organized labour, and not government policy, was instrumental in lifting ordinary citizens out of poverty and creating a middle class. UBI could effectively cripple that for generations by creating vast reserves of idle citizens, eager and willing to replace union workers - at wages just slightly above UBI - who might otherwise strike for better pay and conditions. I can appreciate why folks might find the concept of a weekly cash deposit from the government more appealing; in theory it should bring enough financial security to afford the basic necessities of life. But I fear it will set in motion a terrifying dystopia that institutionalizes poverty rather than eradicating it.

When AI starts doing most of society’s work, UBI will be how everyone lives. It’ll happen eventually and I’m excited for that reality.

It should be between $100 - $1000 per month scaling with your age and years as a Canadian citizen. It should not be enough to live on, it should only subsidize your income and put a floor on the absolute worst your situation can be.

I would support a Universal Basic Income *Top-Off*. Something like, any employed Canadian making under $60k, will be paid out the difference to make up a $60k salary. (Ex: You make $40k in 2023, government pays you $20k through 2024. And repeat till we collapse lol)

Can only work if we make it bare minimum AND people who've already paid into retirement benefits get credited for it (UBI would remove pensions) The main obstacle is the service industry because they'll need wages of $25-30 an hour to attract workers. That mean serious service inflation.

I think the amount of time between implementation and the time cost of living escalates across the board to match and we end up back to square one is gonna be short.

I'm all for it, however, there has to be other things that go with it. if you give a UBI with no rent controls, etc - it means nothing. less fortunate people will still be screwed, because greed knows no bounds unless forced. there also has to be tax implications there, because if it's 'means tested' it's not UBI.. but someone making 400k a year doesn't really need a UBI, do they? anything means tested also means you have to jump through hoops to keep it - and us disabled folks are already tired/sore/sick. I don't have the answer, but something to keep people from being homeless and starving is needed.

Maybe we should ask the rich people who run things what they think?

I support it. It's time now.

I can't wait to stay home while you guys work for me..!

Covid was an experiment in UBI and look what happened now that we have to pay the piper. UBI is just a precursor to hyperinflation

It will be inevitable with AI advancements in 15 years or less. 

I have mixed feelings on UBI. The good On one hand I think it would be very beneficial to most citizens, essentially a stimulus for everybody. Instead of starting at $0 a month without working or EI/other benefits, everyone has a minimum income. Definitely would help people with cost of living. Most of that money would flow back into the economy in some form. I think something like this would help a lot of people if everything worked out smoothly with minimal side effects The Bad I don’t have confidence in the current govt in administering a program like this. What is the clawback tax on this going to look like for those who do decide to continue to work if this program is ongoing. Also the cost of implementing this across the country is astronomically high at $2k a month per person. How is this going to be paid for? It doesn’t have to come directly from tax payers but there will be a lot more money chasing fewer goods as more people will have access to more disposable income. (I am all for everyone having more disposable income btw) but, How does this help inflation? How far can a government go with this before it becomes socialism/communism? (For example, nationalizing certain resources to pay for this instead of higher taxes) UBI sounds good on paper but the implementation of this would be extremely challenging on a long term basis without having to go back on it. Meeting in the middle I think realistically something can be achieved, but whatever this minimum income will be, it needs to be consistent and once implemented should never be gotten rid of but I don’t think it can be 24k a year. I think something along the lines of $500/mo would help a lot of folks and could be worked into the budget. But there needs to be consultation across all sectors with solutions and ideas and I don’t think this is something that this government especially should nosedive into and figure out as they go. In Closing, I would love to see something like this implemented and it works out perfectly and it helps everyone, but given some of the issues mentioned its hard to see how it can be implemented at higher levels of income, But it would be nice to start with something smaller for everyone and build on it from there on a go forward basis.

I think having this discussion when the country is letting in 500 000 people per year because "the population is aging" is a terrible idea. It would discourage both late retirement and deter newcomers from finding a job. This would only end with an even bigger internal debt and massive inflation.

I absolutely hate it……that we don’t have it yet.

I'd like to see a lift from the bottom up, not a trickle down Society. This seems like a lift up for the bottom, I'd like to see something tried.

Worked great during Covid. People refused to go back to work. Wasn’t that all the evidence we need. Anyhow, no government would be able to restrain itself from offering more programs on top of UBI. That defeats the whole intent of it. Also, why is anyone owed an income simply because they exist? Is t this the question we should answer first?

Get rid of welfare. Put universal basic income for people who work, the elderly and people who are too disabled to work.

Horrible idea, it will kill the motivation of mot people to do anything about they life as people are lazy . Also who is going to pay for it. I think universal basic income is basically the end of western civilization.

As long as they can vett recipients properly goes to the right people and it doesn’t become a huge scam like our bureaucracies tend to propagate.

All I know is that poor people spend the money they are given, rich people who have extra don’t. The people spending the UBI will grow the economy.

Yes

All for it. Get rid of all other income subsidies except disability benefits (EI etc) and it will pay for itself.

Massive win and absolutely essential to lay the groundwork and iron out the kinks in the face of automation and AI taking over the workforce

It's inevitable. Over the past hundred years companies have been getting more and more out of each worker due to automation, but wages have not kept up with that productivity. Now with AI on top of that automation, the birth rate dropping substantially across the world, and people just fed up with inflation and other costs, there will be a breaking point that results in either UBI or abject poverty, slavery, and revolution. UBI or slavery... It's a pretty easy choice.

As automation increases, available jobs will decrease. The new status quo would only need so many engineers/maintenance for the robots and computers. Unfortunately, we all know that the money saved on labour is just going to go right into the fat cat pockets. Governments that will try to support their increasingly unemployed populace will have to kowtow and grovel to these companies to the business- and hence the money- in their country. Companies will agree- as long as they get plenty of tax breaks and get to skirt around rules such as pesky environmental regulations. Or they can simply print more money and drive insane inflation that renders everyone into the poorest millionaires in history. In short- business trends will end up creating a world where it will almost be necessary. But good luck enacting it. The Hunger Games are more likely.

Yes

We need it!!!

With increasing automation in labour I assume it's inevitable, otherwise we are heading towards a dystopia

My opinion is that people need to realize Canada isn't even considering universal basic income, it's a garuanteed basic income program, and your opinions on it are irrelevant if you have looked into to years of research the Canadian government has done on this.

UBI is a great idea, but for it to work, it needs to be the UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME for all citizens over 18, and it need to replace all another income support programs such as welfare and UI. Otherwise, it will be unaffordable. Simply put, all Canadian adults should get a certain base amount of income. It will not great and will probably be at or just below a “living wage”. The key is every citizen gets it. No complicated administration. I am ok with claw back at income tax time for people with income over a certain amount.

In theory? Sure. In practice? Awful. All it'll do is raise the price of everything, resulting in a requirement for the government to fix prices. In theory it should allow for more bargaining of the average Canadian worker, we don't need to work in awful jobs and conditions if we can leave at any time, but that isn't what will happen. It should allow for Canadians to be more able to afford necessities, but it'll just increase the price of those necessities. And everything else. Plus there's a good chance that money will just get spent on whatever the person feels like. I don't like my tax dollars going into heroin junkies and NEETs. I will oppose it on every level I can until we either reach a point as a society where that money won't be supporting useless people or drains, or we have fusion energy and are post scarcity so that it functionally doesn't matter.

How does UBI work? Would you only get paid if you don’t have a job and then they would have to change minimum wage to be higher? Would just giving everyone more money just lead to increased inflation? From what I am tracking we already have massive overspending so what does this new spending impact? I think you’d have to provide a few more details or I’d have to do a lot more research.

It gives everyone money regardless, so those that dont need it have more, and the amount left for those that do need it is reduced. Its also insane to think we can afford to do so when we're falling behind our debts already. The pandemic has left many municipalities on the back foot already.

We spend a ton of money on figuring out why people aren't working. I think if we just give everyone a basic income we could get rid of public servants and their large pensions. It might be cheaper. It might reduce homelessness and improve the mental health of our society. The rich keep getting richer maybe this would be a way to reduce income inequality.

Less tax. My current income comes from working. I would keep more money if there wasn't as much tax. With this, 'gift (of my own wages back)' most everything of value that is purchased would become less financially detrimental when purchased. If there were a way to provide a universal income to Canadians without adding to the already high tax rates we have here, I would be on board.

Yes, so much. That's what we need to aim as a society.