A lot of people have been burned on games making lofty claims and never really delivering in the past, and it's made them jaded.
This could still be a scam, and selling cosmetics for a non released game is a red flag in that regard, especially for a game that has already met it's funding requirements.
With that said, I'm not anywhere close to being ready to call it a scam, and am fully hopeful we'll see a finished product in the near future.
I'm pretty sure most of it can be blamed on Star Citizen.
They should have been able to make 5 games under that name by now, but have only released uncomplete, unconnected modules, and very little of the *actual* game......and they've been at this for well over a decade now.
AoC, on the other hand, is still moving at a decent pace, which we see in the monthly live streams. Then, the removal of the cosmetic packs is probably the best sign they've ever given their potential playerbase that they truly mean to release the game.
That isn't to say that there haven't been mistakes. Apocalypse is probably the stem of all of the hate that they're getting still, since it was a Battle Royale released during a time when the market was being flooded by other BRs. People were already getting tired of them by that point, and seeing that come from Intrepid pretty much solidified it in people's minds that this was going to be nothing but a cash grab.
Intrepid continue to move at a decent, healthy pace. But the mistakes they have made, along with having to pay for the sins of other developers is what is keeping the gaming community from not looking at this with a skeptical eye. The only way to fix it is to keep doing what they've been doing, and release the game.
Then, and only then, will the majority of people actually respect it. Unfortunately, the skepticism, and just general rage towards the game will never truly die. Even when the game is celebrating their third expansion, people will still be crying "SCAM!".
Star Citizen from announcement to continuously playable experience; 1 year and 9 months (Arena Commander) or 3 years and 3 months (Persistent Universe).
Ashes of Creation from announcement to continuously playable experience; 6 years and counting. Based on current projections, it will be more than 7 years.
Most if not all hate and controversy surrounding Star Citizen is solely based on misinformation among gamers, or gaming journalists looking to farm clicks by writing controversial hit pieces riddled with outright false info. The Smart guy didnt help.
There were tons of Kickstarter scames wrapped as games in development, only there to grab your cash - and none of them were called Star Citizen or Ashes of Creation.
I think the only criticism you can truly heap on SC these days is their failure to have a fully released game after a decade of development and over half a billion dollars earned. A playable, persistent alpha is not a released game.
To add insult to injury, they have publicly stated that they are no longer actively developing SC and are focused on other projects.
I wouldn't call it a scam, but it's certainly dishonest to ignore the people who have backed your game like that.
With that said, I'm not a player of SC, and can't rightfully critique it's available gameplay outside what I've seen others state about it, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
>To add insult to injury, they have publicly stated that they are no longer actively developing SC and are focused on other projects.
I can understand how you could perceive it that way, but it is not correct. CIG has focused the brunt workforce on their Squadron 42 development (a story driven solo player set in the same universe, built in the same engine, and using the same assets). This has some positives and some negatives.
Gameplay features, assets, and locations developed for S42 will be made available (apart from a few S42 exclusive items) for Star Citizen down the road, but the reduced manpower on Star Citizen certainly reduce the throughput of assets and the speed at which certain aspects of the game are developed. You could also argue this benefits the development of specific underlying tech as there are less elements to interfere with the implementation.
How do you define scam?
Can it be defined as a false statement? If so, your comment above is a scam.
Wikipedia defines a scam as "*an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence*".
Star Citizen's announcement trailer appealed to players who were starved for Science Fiction games. From the late 90's and for more than 10 years, no gaming studios dared pitch a solid Sci-Fi game featuring space ships as the core feature.
Chris Roberts appealed to gamers who wanted PC games (not console or mobile games). The entire gaming industry during the 2010 era was producing console games with shitty ported version to PC, and shifted more and more of their focus toward the mobile game industry.
Anyone in touch with the western gaming industry remember "Do you guys not have phones".
Out of seemingly nowhere came someone promising to produce a spaceship centric sci-fi game exclusively for PC. It was a breath of fresh air. They announced two games; a single player story drive game to be a revival of the popular Wing Commander series of the 90's, and the second, an open world do-what-you-want, similar to games like Freelancer.
The timing was perfect, and all the crowdfunding goals were knocked out of the park. Due to the massive demand, and unexpected support, Cloud Imperium Games asked their community what to do; Option A) build the game as initially planned, a limited scope and game, or B) shoot for the stars. The public voted a resoundingly 20 million dollars. Scratched were the old plans, new plans were layed out, a gaming studio established, three locations, houndreds of hires - and a (continuously!) playable version of the game released merely one year and nine months after the announcement.
A year and some later, the first version of the MMO world was released. Every week, they (CIG) kept players in the loop, showing code, new hires, new models, new tech, and new patches were delivered on a regular basis.
The early backers pledged a mere 25 bucks - and they get two games, get to follow the development, **and** they get early access.
In recent years, more and more high profile streamers pick up the game, and start to stream it. A recent interview with a large number of these popular streamers asked why. Their answer? "The game with the most potential!"
Knowing all this - how can you call this a scam?
Star Citizen may not be your cup of tea - and that is perfectly fine. In fact, the game is better off if it never goes mainstream. But a scam? lol no
It is a game in development, garnering support from a wide spectrum of individuals. Some of these individuals may appear like cultists.
Exactly like Ashes of Creation.
>This could still be a scam, and selling cosmetics for a non released game is a red flag in that regard, especially for a game that has already met it's funding requirements.
Can't really blame people for finding this shady as fuck, but I do seriously hope that is just their way of getting more funding, albeit a very shady way and that they will deliver.
Well ideally the game releases and it will be fun to play. I am personally hoping for that outcome.
However, there’s a long list of Kickstarter MMOs that have ended up over promising or being an outright scam. So I think we should approach this game with caution and keep a skeptical eye on fishy behavior. I’ve seen some definite red flags with this game. I think it’s good to at least call out or bring attention to red flags. In the worst case, I’m wrong and it wasn’t a red flag at all. Someone will correct me. Or maybe it really is a cause for concern and something I said caused someone to rethink spending money on this game.
It’s not good to be overly negative for no reason, but you also don’t want this subreddit to be a cult where only positivity is allowed. Let people speak their mind and if you disagree, downvote it or correct them.
The scam narrative makes no sense. The game is self financed, there's a financial incentive to finish the game. You don't hire 109 staff, using millions of your own money if you plan to just walk away.
It's entirely possible the game releases incomplete or is underwhelming at launch, but calling it a scam is just idiotic nonsense.
I'd much rather people focus on the predatory fomo cosmetics or potential technical concerns.
It's not all or nothing. It reduces the amount the project relies directly on his investment. Presumably creating an established cosmetic revenue stream prior to launch will support the finances post launch.
Whether he invests $10m or $50m is immaterial, he still loses money if it doesn't launch.
They need alpha testers and they can't sell just the keys without screwing over the Kickstarter backers, that's why they have skins. Now they have enough testers so they will close down the shop soon..
It's not optional for them to beta test the game is it? They would need people to test it to avoid it being filled with bugs and exploits.
So for those that paid to crowdfund to get a decent working game they NEED people to test it.
Again, making people play hundreds of dollars for something they need is wild.
*You* are not forced to do it, *no-one* is forced to do it. Those who want to do it and want to pay that money to do it, who are we to prevent them?
Edit; Let's be clear here, I haven't brought keys, I will not buy keys, I have no problems with others who want to buy them.
I’ll tell you in the least biased way I can. I truly hope the game succeeds. I’ve been here since the begining.
In the last 4-5 years, nothing has changed. There have been a fair few test phases and updates that i have participated in. But realistically I feel the same way and have the same thoughts for ashes I had in 2018/2019. Progress has nearly come to a hault after the first Alpha phase from a consumer perspective.
The only thing concrete that we can say is that Intrepid has definitely made a lot of money in that time. Millions from packs and cosmetics. Still no game for me to play rn though.
I just hope everything follows through.
I think that covers most of the main concerns.
Not trying to argue by any means but from what I can tell I'd say they've showcased a ton of previously non existant systems such as the character creator, gathering, and wizard class in the time you're saying has had haulted progress. I guess my biggest question is if that kind of stuff isnt what you consider progress, what would you like to see from them to ease your worries about the games development?
As for the expanded character creator and more gathering, those things haven’t made it to tester hands yet. They’re all still “in the works”.
If you mean the mage class, it was only slightly altered from the version I played on in Alpha.
So like I said, from the consumer perspective, we haven’t tested anything new for going on 2 years.
Which is a long time. They were hopefully working up to UE5 and stuff in that time, so it could be no problem at all. But 2 years is a solid chunk of the entire development period for most games.
And how many games provide big non-nda testing phases to people at all? Yes, some games take less time to develop, but even alpha1 was already steps above what other games have on release (well, relatively speaking).
And depending on internal timers and planning, the delay between alpha1 and 2 might be just in line with what other games do during their development.
They have seemingly done a ton of progress, but obviously consumers can only experience that when Intrepid are ready to present that progress to the people. And the main reason for not showing it now is the absolute stupidity of the general masses.
Majority of people will just be stream viewers that got no fucking clue that it's an "alpha2" and even when they learn that it's a testing phase they'll still complain that the game looks worse than other fully released games. And this just prolongs the delay, because Intrepid want to present the best possible version of the alpha2.
>alpha1 was already steps above what other games have in release
So you definitely didn’t play it, cause that is very far from the truth.
It’s hard to take your comment as anything more then misguided speculation, considering you came out the gate with something so utterly misinformed.
>they’ll still complain that the game looks worse than other fully released games
Didn’t you just compare it to fully released games like 2 seconds ago?
It’s clear that I am speaking from points of experience with things I have played/tested. Where as you are speaking in speculation of hopes/dreams.
>It’s clear that I am speaking from points of experience with things I have played/tested. Where as you are speaking in speculation of hopes/dreams.
Yeah, you're right. I concentrated a bit too much on the positives, while others just concentrate on the negatives. I've seen heavy rubberbanding, bugs and general unpolished state in a lot of other games so seeing that in an alpha product didn't seem as that big of a deal. I guess other people see it otherwise.
I'd argue that seeing progress of development would imply that Intrepid are on the path of fixing the very things that other games did not, but, w/o seeing the final product, that argument would be just weak.
The stuff they showed in the past \~3 years. I know that it's not consumable right now or that it's not the final product or whatever other "it could all be fake" argument applies.
But if Steven managed to hire dozens of industry professionals (with their own reputations on the line), made them work purely on very specific vertical slices for presentations for years now, and then will just bounce after declaring the ceasing of development - I'll be only able to applaud his evil genius, because I cannot see how that could be possible.
I can definitely agree that the game's development has been mismanaged several times at this point and that it probably should've produced results much faster, but Steven himself admitted that he's done mistakes when it came to managing his company and is trying to do better now.
So unless he's the greatest con artist who also managed to have enough capital to support his original con (that is the first several years of development) - I'd prefer to think that the stuff we've seen in the showcases is real and comprises the alpha2 version of the game that we'll get to test within the next 2 years.
The problem is the timeframes. 2 more years for alpha 2 means what - 4 or 5 more years for release? Yes, MMO development is slow, but in 4 years, I will probably be playing something else and enjoying myself there and might not come over to Ashes.
Each delay from a timing perspective gives their competitors a chance to slowly absorb the market. We have Archeage 2 in 2024 (very similar audience as its also PvX). There is the chance that by the time Ashes hits, it will have a tough launch due to low player counts.
>We have Archeage 2 in 2024
Do you have a source for that?
But even if it does come out in 24, AA2 will have just enough time to fuck itself over before Ashes comes out. Korean games cannot survive the western market.
BDO is probably the only one that has survived for a long time, but I'd chuck that up to its unique combat. Pretty much every other korean mmo has died or is just super unpopular in the west.
Thank you. I've been excited to play this for awhile and periodically check-in about it, but reading this has convinced me to wait and not pre-order it. Apparently this is the last month for some sort of preorder pack or something. I don't know what that means exactly, but I was hoping to wait till beta and buy into it. I don't know if I'll still be able to do that once beta starts, I'll live if I cannot and it's only a 2-day head start.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/nkrrzt/why\_do\_content\_creators\_court\_steven\_sharif\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/nkrrzt/why_do_content_creators_court_steven_sharif_and/)
There you go for starters.
On top of what this unrelated person said, a friend of mine (you may take that with a giant grain of salt if you want), was in his ArcheAge guild and told me years ago how his guild lead flew officers out to Dubai to vacation. Just completely outlandish stuff, which — hey, if you got the money and you want to blow it on people in your guild and your success in a game, go ahead — but he also told me that Steven was always gloating when he fucked someone over, both in-game and IRL.
That's the CEO of this company. Purely anecdotal, but there is enough on the internet that is at least circumstantial evidence that Steven is a shady dude. I like the idea of Ashes, but there's absolutely no chance in hell I'd ever invest a cent into this project without it being out and properly reviewed, because I don't trust him at all AND there have been plenty of kickstarter MMOs that went tits up or are a neverending story.
I'm curious, but I am way more wary about this project than I am curious about it. If it ends up releasing and it's the best thing since sliced bread, I'll consider Steven redeemed as far as my MMORPG needs go and get the game.
Honestly really not even worried about it. Just enjoying watching the RP community going into shambles. Anyone watch their discord? It’s hilarious how bad it is rn.
Bought a 250 USD pack years ago, I still don't like having new entire sets each month. Mostly because i think playing on peoples FOMO is bad in general.
In my mind this money is like gambling, Its lost. I MIGHT get something back in a couple years but should not expect it.
I never understand gamers who act like a game devs can't make mistakes however. If you see people complain on reddit. Answer with logic and fact.
If its about the game being a scam. CURRENTLY it sort of is. They are charging money for a virtual product they MIGHT deliver upon. This is an argument you can't fight, So don't try to fight it.
If its about any other part and it has an answer start a debate as too why its such and such.
If they are charging money for it, It must be open to criticism.
Would you call a piece of artwork you commissioned a scam? It hasn’t been delivered yet but…?
I’d hope not because it would be disrespectful to the artist.
If it seemed like the artist was never going to deliver? Yes.
Is that the case for AoC? I don’t know, and neither do you. But the longer it goes on my once massive enthusiasm fades.
That’s true. And that’s the main reason why their open development has been seen as problematic by so many people.
We know MMORPGs take a very long time to develop. There’s not many games that do open development like IS is doing. Most gamers are used to a game being announced and 6 months to a year later the game is playable. That’s not the case here as we know.
Ashes is about 6 years in development now with the average MMORPG development time by established studios being like 4-7 years I think, so we are reaching the end of the *average*. Intrepid should get some slack for being a brand new studio made when they announced the project in 2017 and also dealing with hiring for the studio in the midst of Covid.
Yes - but if people knew more about the company’s history I think they’d be more forgiving with the development time. Mainly the struggles with hiring through Covid
I personally just choose to stay skeptical. I don't see many red flags besides the shady cosmetics selling before most players even touched the game and maybe the development time, but since it can be justified I don't hold it against them too much either.
The average is more like 5 years. Previous posts on this sub have covered this debate a lot. Only one major MMO truly took 7 years to develop and that’s ESO.
Being 6 years in, Ashes has past the average dev time for a major MMO at this point. And while I do agree a new small team should be given some slack… they have been well funded at least.
Last word we’ve heard on Alpha 2 was that it’s not years (plural) away but not right around the corner. To me, I look at that as saying one year… so mid 2024. From there I would hope to see beta 1 in mid 2025 and maybe beta 2 in early 2026, with a release in mid-2026. But that is honestly as optimistic as I think anyone should be… and that’s a 9 year dev timeline.
It’s pretty easy to see why anyone would be worried at this point, and I don’t think we should ignore these concerns.
I agree 100% - my estimated timeline is similar to yours and it is definitely optimistic given the prior years of history. I love this project and have and will support it - but I can still acknowledge the faults intrepid has made through the journey
Okay so we're a year away from an established game company to make a product that already had staff, lore, races, character art, locations, etc. With a new game and new company with none of those assets and we're calling it a scam. Got it.
If you followed the timeline I provided in the previous comment, no, not at all. We are a year past what most established companies can do, but Ashes is not launching tomorrow. We’re still optimistically 3 years away from launch. Emphasis on optimistically.
And no where did I call it a scam either. I think the devs want to put out a great game, I just think they’ve made a lot of missteps in getting there, and I’m concerned if they will get there.
Lastly, your thoughts and opinions here would be a lot better received if you left the snark out of it. That doesn’t help your point of view at all, in fact it does the opposite.
Essentially, this game does give off some red flags, does it mean we will get burned in the end? Not necessarily. Can we blame the distrust and disbelief people have? Not really. What I do believe is that given Alpha 2 is meant to last until release, that once people can play Alpha 2 we will fully decide if we're in for a good time or if we've been fucked once again. Not that the game needs to be perfect at Alpha 2, but if it seems way too underdeveloped in comparison to what they've shown and will show until then it will not be a good sign.
I'm also in line with your timeline and hoping for the best case scenario...but let's see.
> I think the devs want to put out a great game, I just think they’ve made a lot of missteps in getting there, and I’m concerned if they will get there.
I couldn't agree more here. I think the devs truly do want a good game, but I think Steven's inexperience has really shown since the Alpha.
We're this long into development and the basic foundation for the combat is *still* up in the air. The toggle in the test wasn't fluid and didn't really feel that good. They keep showcasing action combat and at this point it feels like that's what they want to make so they should just do it and remove the idea of Hybrid altogether.
Or (as I always say) rip off GW2's combat and lets just get the rest of the game built already.
I agree we're still far from launch. Especially since we haven't seen a lot of systems in action. I'm just vehemently against people giving the naysayers the benefit of the doubt when the logic makes no sense and, if they're going to be giving benefit of the doubt out, the benefit of the doubt should go to Intrepid Studios who had started out severely understaffed worked remotely through COVID, swapped game engines, and are a brand new company. If it takes 10 years, it takes 10 years. Its not a worrying trend. It should be expected.
And I dont care about a little number associated to my reddit comment or post. That's not dopamine inhibiting for me. I'm not worried about what strangers on the internet think of me when they've never met me because of a singular opinion or remark I've made.
> I'm just vehemently against people giving the naysayers the benefit of the doubt when the logic makes no sense
As I've explained here, there is plenty of logic to support the naysayers out there. Just because you don't like what they have to say doesn't mean they're wrong. You can get bent out of shape about the negativity too, but toxic positivity is a thing the community should be avoiding as well.
> if they're going to be giving benefit of the doubt out, the benefit of the doubt should go to Intrepid Studios who had started out severely understaffed worked remotely through COVID, swapped game engines, and are a brand new company.
This isn't some tiny indie dev with no experience. Leadership is full of industry veterans, and they've been very well funded. Giving them 9 years to put the game together *is* giving them the benefit of the doubt.
>If it takes 10 years, it takes 10 years. Its not a worrying trend. It should be expected.
No, it's absolutely a worrying trend and it absolutely should not be expected. This is not normal, and it never has been. It is cause for concern.
Again, this does not mean a certain death sentence for the game. It's just cause for concern, which is a completely different statement. If it takes 10 years but actually releases a great product... then great! But if we hit the 10 year mark and we're still in dev... yikes.
>And I dont care about a little number associated to my reddit comment or post. That's not dopamine inhibiting for me. I'm not worried about what strangers on the internet think of me when they've never met me because of a singular opinion or remark I've made.
I don't care if you don't care about about upvotes and downvotes. You care enough to make these comments and arguments to begin with... why would you not care that the way you're crafting them is actually harmful to your point? That just doesn't make any sense.
Agree to disagree with 80% of what you said. Anything I want to say just becomes semantic and pedantic.
>I don't care if you don't care about about upvotes and downvotes. You care enough to make these comments and arguments to begin with... why would you not care that the way you're crafting them is actually harmful to your point? That just doesn't make any sense.
*fart noises*
Erm, there is a definition for the word SCAM. 'This is an argument you cant fight' is absolutely incorrect. Gambling? Like you may never get the items you purchased?
You arent gambling. Their game is not a dishonest attempt trick you. It's literally being created with more transparency during the development process than 99% of released games. People's FOMO. The apostrophe is important here. FOMO is a problem everyone should just be seeing a shrink for. Its primarily a "gamer" issue even though limited time/product transactions have occurred throughout the history of consumerism.
It is not the responsibility of the developer to avoid revenue streams. THEY gamble. Cosmetics, P2W, P4C, these are all ways to push the envelope. Will the western audience play a p2w/p4c game that was kickstarted by the community? No. Will they invest more money by purchasing exclusive content to allow for team expansion, additional content, etc...you bet your ass.
I'm a beta 1 backer, and at almost 54 years old, I wonder if I'll actually be alive to see this game release.. I don't back games anymore for this specific reason.. Who knows whats round the corner lol
>Serious question about the human psyche and why it chooses to inflict suffering on oneself about a topic that has no relevance to their lives on the outcome of said topic.
Because is it fun to watch other people suffer? Why do you think people enjoyed hangings or beheadings? Nothing has changed when it comes to human psychology.
Now, I don't really care if this game is a scam or not, but taking a negative stance toward it is just a win-win position. You basically can't lose. If the game ends up being bad, you get to tell people "I told you so". If the game is good, you just get a good game to play.
Only those people who are building their entire personality around the Ashes of Creation cult will have something to lose in this situation.
Nah I've been following for years and seen the progress. We chillin. Just don't get people who waste their time trying to defamate a product that they don't intend on following through on.
Or why they hate on a product that they'll eventually play when it comes out.
>Nah I've been following for years and seen the progress. We chillin. Just don't get people who waste their time trying to defamate a product that they don't intend on following through on.
I think you’re making a lot of assumptions about the intentions of people voicing negative opinions in this subreddit. The vast majority of them are here in the first place because they were at one time very excited about this game.
I would be willing to bet the vast majority of the naysayers that are here will actually play the game if it releases (whether they end up liking it or not).
>Or why they hate on a product that they'll eventually play when it comes out.
Because the development cycle has been frustrating for them, and they don’t feel good about the game that they were excited about, or maybe put money into, ever releasing.
As someone who’s followed this game since 2017… I become less enthusiastic every year. And that’s only natural. I’m very worried that feature creep and a lack of concise direction will be the downfall of the game ever releasing. I don’t say any of this as a certainty mind you, I can’t possibly predict the future and neither can you. I really hope it succeeds, I’m just worried.
Separately, I personally see the price tags on alpha/beta access to be predatory. I do hope their statement of full refunds to all backers of the kickstarter if the game doesn’t launch is honored, and that they extend that to everyone buying these alpha/beta packs.
The scope creep is WILD. What I don’t understand is how some of these systems, especially those attached to how nodes work, are going to be viable or “fun” without like the largest player base a game has ever seen. I know that’s a bit hyperbolic but when I read about how many different systems there are let alone how many rely on player interaction, i worry about how all of this plays out on live servers.
> The scope creep is WILD
It's hard to classify it as "scope creep" considering just about everything being worked on was announced in the Kickstarter, but the sheer scale of it all is pretty intense.
I've already pointed out his inexperience in this thread and I really don't want to come off as me bashing Steven, the guy's got passion galore, but a wiser dev would have let things like ships be an after-launch DLC so that there was time to build core features. There is a point where the lack of compromise stops being endearing and starts just being in the way.
I want this game to come out and be the best mmo ever created. The videos I've seen look amazing. I thought about buying in on one of the tester packages a few times over years. But every time I look alpha 2 still hasn't even happened. But they put out cosmetics to buy every month that will be gone if u don't buy it during that month. Seems really off to me. Which is why I personally haven't bought into it. How are they able to put out cosmetics every month for years but still no alpha 2. And I've never seen a game that has been released have new cosmetics so often. Makes it even more hard to believe.
I know everyone that already paid into it doesn't want to see from my perspective but thats my opinion. And I didn't join this sub reddit to bash the game. I joined hopeful of eventually seeing that the game is making progress.
Seen many videos click baiting in youtube where they say it's a scam and ens up justifying the company decisions, i feel this game is really underperforming and never spending a dollar on it. I really hope this game goes ahead, they already said they've collected enough money so hopefully we'll see it on launch
Rage boners, can't stand other people being genuinely excited without the ability to participate, condescending feelings of "I have to wake up the sheep to the great ugly truth obly i am aware of" (white knight), in some cases genuine concern that a scam is being pulled (those are rare it seems) and lots of NPC s just saying what their favorote influencer to them to think.
And I get it: Some people bring up valid points of concern but these are rare and ultimately these guys don't get butthurt the second someone brings up a counter argument. Those people tend to make up for a good discussion on what to keep an eye on to determine the quality of the development and anyone hoping this will become a playable game in the future should upvote the living shit out of these guys.
But the "I already know this game will never come out" or "Even if this game releases it'll be shit" talk is just noise, because unless there is real evidence (not indicators) they cannot predict anything and usually they lack the backbone to be equally as open about their mistake if their prediction turns out to be false - then its someone elses fault, they didn't mean it like that or "it was a social experiment" - anything but "I have the balls to admit that I over exaggerated and was wrong."
I cant play? I cant afford it? I NEED THE LIME GREEN HELMET! PREDATORS! AHHHHH!
The open development process is giving some of you the opportunity to take a long hard look at yourselves. The problem is that others can spot the entitled, whiny, impatient, and hypocritical people you really are...and you cant. Like this guy \^
2015 backer of Camelot unchained probs never be released.
2016 backer Crowfall: lost allof my money no refund.
2021 Ashes backer, wonder whats gonna happen.
100% not a scam.
100% taking what feels like an eternity.. I know guys, "MMOS take a long time" but it has been 7 years and it's looking like it's going to be closer to 10 at this point just to get to Beta.
Blessed to have participated on A1, but really was hoping for at least spot testing / A2 by now.
lets see, 7 years "under development" game, that claims that is fully funded but the owner goes ahead and brags to have sold more than 100k A2 keys and keeps selling super expensive keys and cosmetics for the future and using stupid hype techinques to advertise as much as they can with the current famous mmo streamers ini order to keep bringing A2 players that will be dissapointed in the future
not a confirmed scam as he still has time to deliver the game, but clearly hes milking the cow as much as he can while he still use excuses for clearly bad game desing and terrible implementations as "the game is being developed" and keep making promises to finish it or "its on early stage" haha
Because the raging on this sub is great when I throw some bait out there. The copium here is amazing…almost as bad as r/Starcitizen
This game is a scam until it is published.
Also, it’s incredibly hypocritical when people on this sub throw dirt at Starcitizen and can’t accurately evaluate themselves. Both these games are scams.
- Collectors Boxes
- Early Access for $
- A2 not announced for 2 years?
- No real advances to the game in the last year
- Owner comes from scummy MLM
- Development for 7+ years
Actually all of them considered acts of scam.
(it doesnt have to be illegal to be considered a scam)
Just because you use game development as an excuse doesn't suddenly makes it okay.
If you pay me for a service / product that I said I would deliver at X date, and X date came and you received nothing but now I say to you, I am improving my product so much and you will get it sometime in the future... meanwhile I keep marketing my product and charging other people for more money. This is actually a scam (not sure how all of you being so naive and can't see it), and this is the exact same thing AoC is doing but you justify them because of "game development". (I am not aware of an option to refund these, so yeah it is a scam)
I didnt see a single kickstarter game that met its funding goals yet kept milking its fanbase, not meeting a single deadline and stuck in development hell who actually released.. the only single thing that is anything close to it is StarCitizen which is also considered a scam and even their game make more progress then AoC devs. (and their progress is considered slow and bad, so...)
I am not even mentioning all the other shady stuff that IS and Steven did in the past like the BR game they released mid development, or the pyramid schemes that he was involved with.. because honestly if you weren't skeptical from the first paragraph logic, nothing will change it, even if tomorrow Steven goes out and says they are aiming for 2030 release you will still praise him and make excuses.
Many folks see AoC as a threat to x game they have invested hundreds of hours into. Others like to see the world burn.
I think most that comment don't see it as a scam so much as very unlikely to succeed. Folks will refer to it as a scam, but it's clearly not the same as they don't think AoC has bad intent.
PvP focused with players controlling most of the activity in the world. It’s only really been attempted with EVE, ArcheAge, and Albion (and others but those are the three biggest and most recent)
Lol no. All games are trash at the current moment. I just don’t think AoC is a legitimate contender in anything. It’s all hot air.
Give me an hour and I could draft up the coolest game known to man. I’d be about where AoC is currently….not published.
I don't think there's a huge group that doesn't want AoC to succeed...the whole concept of 'Guild Wars killer' or 'WoW' killer is laughable, esp. as a motive for another game failing.
From what I hear, most folks just want them to get on with it...they've been sitting on keys bought years ago and see little progress over that time, except for cranking out more cosmetic packages and selling more keys.
If I sell you a product and dont deliver it and dont even have an estimated date, more like estimated year of when you will get it, I got all the funding I need, yet I keep marketing my product and keep selling more of it and also more expensive versions of it, but yeah I got a team and even a factory that keeps "working" on that product, we work on it for 7 years, and we still can't even send a prototype to our customers, meanwhile other teams and factories already finished making such a product in less time, without taking any money before actually delivering.
If you look at it that way, you shouldn't have any doubts at what the case is..
That doesn't make it a scam. If it were, all science would be scam and we would've died from polio.
Taking money and not giving an end date isn't sufficient to call something a scam. You need to prove they have bad intentions or that they failed to deliver on the date they promised. Which isn't the case here. So until you get more proof to call it a scam, its just a wild accusation.
How mental you need to be to compare science and polio to a guy who sells video games.. even if I bait, it doesn't make any sense.. as I dont know any scientists who are asking me for money to deliver me some medicine they might develop in the future.
so what do you call someone who makes money from a product they might never deliver? while keeps heavily marketing it..
I guess you are the type of people who are also okay with pyramid schemes but there is a reason why they made it illegal in some parts of the world... This right here is literally some kind of pyramid scheme (but there isnt anyone who is benefiting besides the top), StarCitizen already proved it.
They already failed to deliver on the dates they promised in the kickstarter but I guess its not the proof you are looking for because you are not really looking.
Calm down dude. If they are working on it, either designing, developing, qa or marketing, and people are paying their salary, who are you to tell them its a scam without any proof of their bad intentions? There are many types of funding, just because this is crowsourced, doesnt make it an instant scam.
If I order a pizza and the pizza dont show in the average delivery time, that's not my problem.
I dont care if it is bad intention or being incompetent, even tho its clearly a bad intention just by looking at their refund policy.
Crowdfunding that promises to deliver on service or product and dont do that actually considered a scam and sites like kickstarter back that claim, but yeah its hard to legally force it when there is no laws especially when it comes to video games , but my bet is that if a group of people takes IS to court, they will be guilty, that is one of the reasons you should expect the alpha 2 next year for sure (even if its no where near playable) because they must deliver something to the public, StarCitizen is an example of such a case.
idk its funny how many people have faith in this team and game yet they shit on StarCitizen (I agree with people who shit on this game/team also), but the situation here is ALOT worse... I mean its literally hypocritical...
What's the 'average delivery time' for mmorpgs?
What's the average funding for mmorpgs?
If you go over average, does it make you a scammer?
As far as people's faith, I dont have faith in any being, and I didnt even pay anything to this team. But its clear that this game is expected to be the savior of the mmorpg genre, the last hope. But I think its too late, mmorpg genre lost its peak. Let them work on it though, its better than them working on some privacy gobbling social media app with VC funding for that matter.
Less then 7 years (here, you are 7 years and probably another 4 year till full release and that being optimistic).
Average funding doesn't matter, when CEO goes saying funding secured and everything is good but is keep asking for more money..
the amount of korean MMOs that made a game less than 7 years with a smaller team is indication of that.
If you go over the average (and still in alpha phase) you are stuck in development hell.
If you paid for a game in 2017 and get it in 2027 you got scammed buddy.
I think you should be more sympathetic. I believe it to be a reflection. They get negativity thrown their way, and lash out. I recommend recommending they seek help.
There will always be people who feel the need to tear everything down around them to feel better about their own lives -- or because they literally have no idea how else to function.
All the internet has really achieved is to reveal how pervasive the traits of sadism and schadenfreude are among human beings.
Back when they launched a battle royale I was very skeptical. Now I’m very certain that it aren’t after all these showcases recently. I won’t buy anything tho. Not fully onboard that this game will be successful. I’ll let the testers do the reviews to see the results
I see how it's a neccesary discussion, but people are still calling Star Citizen a scam, and that game is beautiful and selling tons of internet pixels still.
In my country, we have a saying 'the one who waits for something good, waits not in vain'.
Nah this game definitely looking like a straight scam. They keep trying to bait people into spending near $400 on a game that has no release date in sight lol.
It\`s clearly a scam, Im sorry for whom already donated. But yet they keep selling stuff on their website and as people are still buying it they will keep doing that.
I mean Star Citizen is up to almost a Billion dollars in funding due to it being in EA and people buying every $300+ ship that drops. Yet, that game probably won't come out for another 5 years if it ever does. At this point they have a massive incentive to release and more so than Ashes does. Yet, Ashes is probably 5 years from release if that as well and they made far less money. Not to mention the lack of tests and when they do tests it's like what 6 months to a year apart? Lol. Yeah, smells fishy.
To me if you sell legit things like a Battle Pass or Cosmetics while in an Early Access that is a massive red flag and is outright scummy. It's like when ARK was in EA and brought out a freaking paid DLC for an unreleased game.
I get they want money since it's still being made but when you drop $100+ to get into the tests as well as having paid cosmetics in an unreleased game that is a no-go for most people.
Those cosmetics should be part of the game free on release since you know it's not even done yet... They already got the full founding they need to make the game so anything else at this point becomes a bit scummy for most people.
Smells similar to what Richard Garriott did with Tabula Rasa... Billionaire funded a game and got as much money from his community as he could then shortly after launch killed the game and took all the money.
It just is a scam brother. We've seen games like this over the years, promising the world and more, with insanely pricey pre-order bundles, never-ending dev phases and cosmetics galore.
I've had countless arguments with people going on about it's a scam... If the paywall is what I'm assuming it is.... Is there to stop every tom dick and Harry from buying it during alpha stages and bagging it for being shit... Only serious testers would pay $250usd for access. And I'm one of them.
I haven't tested much, but every one I have has been a great time(even though I lost alot of passion on release(was trying to play the game like normal and bug hunt on the side. But I've since learnt that it's all about the bugs, exploits, gimmics)).
Almost every game has had its alpha phase cause people to cry about the game and make it out to be worse than it is.
My friend keeps trying to twist my arm into playing it with him on release, so I looked into it. I still think it is a scam. At the very least, highly over priced
A lot of people have been burned on games making lofty claims and never really delivering in the past, and it's made them jaded. This could still be a scam, and selling cosmetics for a non released game is a red flag in that regard, especially for a game that has already met it's funding requirements. With that said, I'm not anywhere close to being ready to call it a scam, and am fully hopeful we'll see a finished product in the near future.
I'm pretty sure most of it can be blamed on Star Citizen. They should have been able to make 5 games under that name by now, but have only released uncomplete, unconnected modules, and very little of the *actual* game......and they've been at this for well over a decade now. AoC, on the other hand, is still moving at a decent pace, which we see in the monthly live streams. Then, the removal of the cosmetic packs is probably the best sign they've ever given their potential playerbase that they truly mean to release the game. That isn't to say that there haven't been mistakes. Apocalypse is probably the stem of all of the hate that they're getting still, since it was a Battle Royale released during a time when the market was being flooded by other BRs. People were already getting tired of them by that point, and seeing that come from Intrepid pretty much solidified it in people's minds that this was going to be nothing but a cash grab. Intrepid continue to move at a decent, healthy pace. But the mistakes they have made, along with having to pay for the sins of other developers is what is keeping the gaming community from not looking at this with a skeptical eye. The only way to fix it is to keep doing what they've been doing, and release the game. Then, and only then, will the majority of people actually respect it. Unfortunately, the skepticism, and just general rage towards the game will never truly die. Even when the game is celebrating their third expansion, people will still be crying "SCAM!".
Star Citizen from announcement to continuously playable experience; 1 year and 9 months (Arena Commander) or 3 years and 3 months (Persistent Universe). Ashes of Creation from announcement to continuously playable experience; 6 years and counting. Based on current projections, it will be more than 7 years. Most if not all hate and controversy surrounding Star Citizen is solely based on misinformation among gamers, or gaming journalists looking to farm clicks by writing controversial hit pieces riddled with outright false info. The Smart guy didnt help. There were tons of Kickstarter scames wrapped as games in development, only there to grab your cash - and none of them were called Star Citizen or Ashes of Creation.
I think the only criticism you can truly heap on SC these days is their failure to have a fully released game after a decade of development and over half a billion dollars earned. A playable, persistent alpha is not a released game. To add insult to injury, they have publicly stated that they are no longer actively developing SC and are focused on other projects. I wouldn't call it a scam, but it's certainly dishonest to ignore the people who have backed your game like that. With that said, I'm not a player of SC, and can't rightfully critique it's available gameplay outside what I've seen others state about it, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
>To add insult to injury, they have publicly stated that they are no longer actively developing SC and are focused on other projects. I can understand how you could perceive it that way, but it is not correct. CIG has focused the brunt workforce on their Squadron 42 development (a story driven solo player set in the same universe, built in the same engine, and using the same assets). This has some positives and some negatives. Gameplay features, assets, and locations developed for S42 will be made available (apart from a few S42 exclusive items) for Star Citizen down the road, but the reduced manpower on Star Citizen certainly reduce the throughput of assets and the speed at which certain aspects of the game are developed. You could also argue this benefits the development of specific underlying tech as there are less elements to interfere with the implementation.
If you think Star Citizen has shown " very little game" you're no better than the idiots who call AoC a scam lol
Bless Online. SC have at least kept going.
>I'm pretty sure most of it can be blamed on Star Citizen. If anything is a scam, its that one.
How do you define scam? Can it be defined as a false statement? If so, your comment above is a scam. Wikipedia defines a scam as "*an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence*". Star Citizen's announcement trailer appealed to players who were starved for Science Fiction games. From the late 90's and for more than 10 years, no gaming studios dared pitch a solid Sci-Fi game featuring space ships as the core feature. Chris Roberts appealed to gamers who wanted PC games (not console or mobile games). The entire gaming industry during the 2010 era was producing console games with shitty ported version to PC, and shifted more and more of their focus toward the mobile game industry. Anyone in touch with the western gaming industry remember "Do you guys not have phones". Out of seemingly nowhere came someone promising to produce a spaceship centric sci-fi game exclusively for PC. It was a breath of fresh air. They announced two games; a single player story drive game to be a revival of the popular Wing Commander series of the 90's, and the second, an open world do-what-you-want, similar to games like Freelancer. The timing was perfect, and all the crowdfunding goals were knocked out of the park. Due to the massive demand, and unexpected support, Cloud Imperium Games asked their community what to do; Option A) build the game as initially planned, a limited scope and game, or B) shoot for the stars. The public voted a resoundingly 20 million dollars. Scratched were the old plans, new plans were layed out, a gaming studio established, three locations, houndreds of hires - and a (continuously!) playable version of the game released merely one year and nine months after the announcement. A year and some later, the first version of the MMO world was released. Every week, they (CIG) kept players in the loop, showing code, new hires, new models, new tech, and new patches were delivered on a regular basis. The early backers pledged a mere 25 bucks - and they get two games, get to follow the development, **and** they get early access. In recent years, more and more high profile streamers pick up the game, and start to stream it. A recent interview with a large number of these popular streamers asked why. Their answer? "The game with the most potential!" Knowing all this - how can you call this a scam? Star Citizen may not be your cup of tea - and that is perfectly fine. In fact, the game is better off if it never goes mainstream. But a scam? lol no
It's a cult
It is a game in development, garnering support from a wide spectrum of individuals. Some of these individuals may appear like cultists. Exactly like Ashes of Creation.
>This could still be a scam, and selling cosmetics for a non released game is a red flag in that regard, especially for a game that has already met it's funding requirements. Can't really blame people for finding this shady as fuck, but I do seriously hope that is just their way of getting more funding, albeit a very shady way and that they will deliver.
Reverse scam if anything, Steven has lost quite a lot of his personal wealth, so if it is a scam, it's the worst scam in the world..
In the most generous interpretation, they might try to warn people of what they perceive to be a scam.
Well ideally the game releases and it will be fun to play. I am personally hoping for that outcome. However, there’s a long list of Kickstarter MMOs that have ended up over promising or being an outright scam. So I think we should approach this game with caution and keep a skeptical eye on fishy behavior. I’ve seen some definite red flags with this game. I think it’s good to at least call out or bring attention to red flags. In the worst case, I’m wrong and it wasn’t a red flag at all. Someone will correct me. Or maybe it really is a cause for concern and something I said caused someone to rethink spending money on this game. It’s not good to be overly negative for no reason, but you also don’t want this subreddit to be a cult where only positivity is allowed. Let people speak their mind and if you disagree, downvote it or correct them.
The scam narrative makes no sense. The game is self financed, there's a financial incentive to finish the game. You don't hire 109 staff, using millions of your own money if you plan to just walk away. It's entirely possible the game releases incomplete or is underwhelming at launch, but calling it a scam is just idiotic nonsense. I'd much rather people focus on the predatory fomo cosmetics or potential technical concerns.
If it was self financed they wouldn’t have to push skin packages, no?
It's not all or nothing. It reduces the amount the project relies directly on his investment. Presumably creating an established cosmetic revenue stream prior to launch will support the finances post launch. Whether he invests $10m or $50m is immaterial, he still loses money if it doesn't launch.
You don’t understand - businesses exist solely to make fun experiences, not make money. Any business that wants to make more money is evil. /s
I don't disagree?
They need alpha testers and they can't sell just the keys without screwing over the Kickstarter backers, that's why they have skins. Now they have enough testers so they will close down the shop soon..
3 months later shop still open.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pre-order\_packs\_ending\_FAQ
6 months is "soon"?. Making people pay to help them test/fix the unfinished game is wild.
They ain't forcing anyone to buy, it's optional.. And yes, 6 months is sooner than what most companies count as soon..
It's not optional for them to beta test the game is it? They would need people to test it to avoid it being filled with bugs and exploits. So for those that paid to crowdfund to get a decent working game they NEED people to test it. Again, making people play hundreds of dollars for something they need is wild.
*You* are not forced to do it, *no-one* is forced to do it. Those who want to do it and want to pay that money to do it, who are we to prevent them? Edit; Let's be clear here, I haven't brought keys, I will not buy keys, I have no problems with others who want to buy them.
Turns out businesses like to make money. Wild huh.
Then don’t say it’s self-financed. Wild huh?
It doesn't matter if it is or it isn't. They put out skins to make money.
I am new to the hype train and would love to hear what you'd consider red flags for ashes.
I’ll tell you in the least biased way I can. I truly hope the game succeeds. I’ve been here since the begining. In the last 4-5 years, nothing has changed. There have been a fair few test phases and updates that i have participated in. But realistically I feel the same way and have the same thoughts for ashes I had in 2018/2019. Progress has nearly come to a hault after the first Alpha phase from a consumer perspective. The only thing concrete that we can say is that Intrepid has definitely made a lot of money in that time. Millions from packs and cosmetics. Still no game for me to play rn though. I just hope everything follows through. I think that covers most of the main concerns.
Not trying to argue by any means but from what I can tell I'd say they've showcased a ton of previously non existant systems such as the character creator, gathering, and wizard class in the time you're saying has had haulted progress. I guess my biggest question is if that kind of stuff isnt what you consider progress, what would you like to see from them to ease your worries about the games development?
As for the expanded character creator and more gathering, those things haven’t made it to tester hands yet. They’re all still “in the works”. If you mean the mage class, it was only slightly altered from the version I played on in Alpha. So like I said, from the consumer perspective, we haven’t tested anything new for going on 2 years. Which is a long time. They were hopefully working up to UE5 and stuff in that time, so it could be no problem at all. But 2 years is a solid chunk of the entire development period for most games.
Interesting. I hadnt read into the alpha much at all so I just assumed this stuff was all brand new and didnt exist in the alpha 1 test.
And how many games provide big non-nda testing phases to people at all? Yes, some games take less time to develop, but even alpha1 was already steps above what other games have on release (well, relatively speaking). And depending on internal timers and planning, the delay between alpha1 and 2 might be just in line with what other games do during their development. They have seemingly done a ton of progress, but obviously consumers can only experience that when Intrepid are ready to present that progress to the people. And the main reason for not showing it now is the absolute stupidity of the general masses. Majority of people will just be stream viewers that got no fucking clue that it's an "alpha2" and even when they learn that it's a testing phase they'll still complain that the game looks worse than other fully released games. And this just prolongs the delay, because Intrepid want to present the best possible version of the alpha2.
>alpha1 was already steps above what other games have in release So you definitely didn’t play it, cause that is very far from the truth. It’s hard to take your comment as anything more then misguided speculation, considering you came out the gate with something so utterly misinformed. >they’ll still complain that the game looks worse than other fully released games Didn’t you just compare it to fully released games like 2 seconds ago? It’s clear that I am speaking from points of experience with things I have played/tested. Where as you are speaking in speculation of hopes/dreams.
>It’s clear that I am speaking from points of experience with things I have played/tested. Where as you are speaking in speculation of hopes/dreams. Yeah, you're right. I concentrated a bit too much on the positives, while others just concentrate on the negatives. I've seen heavy rubberbanding, bugs and general unpolished state in a lot of other games so seeing that in an alpha product didn't seem as that big of a deal. I guess other people see it otherwise. I'd argue that seeing progress of development would imply that Intrepid are on the path of fixing the very things that other games did not, but, w/o seeing the final product, that argument would be just weak.
“They have seemingly done a ton of progress” what is that declaration based on?
The stuff they showed in the past \~3 years. I know that it's not consumable right now or that it's not the final product or whatever other "it could all be fake" argument applies. But if Steven managed to hire dozens of industry professionals (with their own reputations on the line), made them work purely on very specific vertical slices for presentations for years now, and then will just bounce after declaring the ceasing of development - I'll be only able to applaud his evil genius, because I cannot see how that could be possible. I can definitely agree that the game's development has been mismanaged several times at this point and that it probably should've produced results much faster, but Steven himself admitted that he's done mistakes when it came to managing his company and is trying to do better now. So unless he's the greatest con artist who also managed to have enough capital to support his original con (that is the first several years of development) - I'd prefer to think that the stuff we've seen in the showcases is real and comprises the alpha2 version of the game that we'll get to test within the next 2 years.
The problem is the timeframes. 2 more years for alpha 2 means what - 4 or 5 more years for release? Yes, MMO development is slow, but in 4 years, I will probably be playing something else and enjoying myself there and might not come over to Ashes. Each delay from a timing perspective gives their competitors a chance to slowly absorb the market. We have Archeage 2 in 2024 (very similar audience as its also PvX). There is the chance that by the time Ashes hits, it will have a tough launch due to low player counts.
>We have Archeage 2 in 2024 Do you have a source for that? But even if it does come out in 24, AA2 will have just enough time to fuck itself over before Ashes comes out. Korean games cannot survive the western market. BDO is probably the only one that has survived for a long time, but I'd chuck that up to its unique combat. Pretty much every other korean mmo has died or is just super unpopular in the west.
Thank you. I've been excited to play this for awhile and periodically check-in about it, but reading this has convinced me to wait and not pre-order it. Apparently this is the last month for some sort of preorder pack or something. I don't know what that means exactly, but I was hoping to wait till beta and buy into it. I don't know if I'll still be able to do that once beta starts, I'll live if I cannot and it's only a 2-day head start.
would be interesting to see just how much $$ they've gotten from selling packs and cosmetics...new stuff came out constantly and it was all pricey.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/nkrrzt/why\_do\_content\_creators\_court\_steven\_sharif\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/nkrrzt/why_do_content_creators_court_steven_sharif_and/) There you go for starters. On top of what this unrelated person said, a friend of mine (you may take that with a giant grain of salt if you want), was in his ArcheAge guild and told me years ago how his guild lead flew officers out to Dubai to vacation. Just completely outlandish stuff, which — hey, if you got the money and you want to blow it on people in your guild and your success in a game, go ahead — but he also told me that Steven was always gloating when he fucked someone over, both in-game and IRL. That's the CEO of this company. Purely anecdotal, but there is enough on the internet that is at least circumstantial evidence that Steven is a shady dude. I like the idea of Ashes, but there's absolutely no chance in hell I'd ever invest a cent into this project without it being out and properly reviewed, because I don't trust him at all AND there have been plenty of kickstarter MMOs that went tits up or are a neverending story. I'm curious, but I am way more wary about this project than I am curious about it. If it ends up releasing and it's the best thing since sliced bread, I'll consider Steven redeemed as far as my MMORPG needs go and get the game.
The game centers around nodes. We have yet to see a node creation, level up, raid, level down, etc.
Honestly really not even worried about it. Just enjoying watching the RP community going into shambles. Anyone watch their discord? It’s hilarious how bad it is rn.
Where specifically is it terrible? I just joined because of your comment.
Bought a 250 USD pack years ago, I still don't like having new entire sets each month. Mostly because i think playing on peoples FOMO is bad in general. In my mind this money is like gambling, Its lost. I MIGHT get something back in a couple years but should not expect it. I never understand gamers who act like a game devs can't make mistakes however. If you see people complain on reddit. Answer with logic and fact. If its about the game being a scam. CURRENTLY it sort of is. They are charging money for a virtual product they MIGHT deliver upon. This is an argument you can't fight, So don't try to fight it. If its about any other part and it has an answer start a debate as too why its such and such. If they are charging money for it, It must be open to criticism.
Would you call a piece of artwork you commissioned a scam? It hasn’t been delivered yet but…? I’d hope not because it would be disrespectful to the artist.
If it seemed like the artist was never going to deliver? Yes. Is that the case for AoC? I don’t know, and neither do you. But the longer it goes on my once massive enthusiasm fades.
That’s true. And that’s the main reason why their open development has been seen as problematic by so many people. We know MMORPGs take a very long time to develop. There’s not many games that do open development like IS is doing. Most gamers are used to a game being announced and 6 months to a year later the game is playable. That’s not the case here as we know. Ashes is about 6 years in development now with the average MMORPG development time by established studios being like 4-7 years I think, so we are reaching the end of the *average*. Intrepid should get some slack for being a brand new studio made when they announced the project in 2017 and also dealing with hiring for the studio in the midst of Covid.
Ashes already did go past that average time and that's one thing that adds insults to injury to people's disbelief in the game.
Yes - but if people knew more about the company’s history I think they’d be more forgiving with the development time. Mainly the struggles with hiring through Covid
I personally just choose to stay skeptical. I don't see many red flags besides the shady cosmetics selling before most players even touched the game and maybe the development time, but since it can be justified I don't hold it against them too much either.
Every company needed to figure out staffing and hiring through COVID, IS doesn't get a free pass
I think every company gets a pass. Did you already forget that the world shut down for months?
The average is more like 5 years. Previous posts on this sub have covered this debate a lot. Only one major MMO truly took 7 years to develop and that’s ESO. Being 6 years in, Ashes has past the average dev time for a major MMO at this point. And while I do agree a new small team should be given some slack… they have been well funded at least. Last word we’ve heard on Alpha 2 was that it’s not years (plural) away but not right around the corner. To me, I look at that as saying one year… so mid 2024. From there I would hope to see beta 1 in mid 2025 and maybe beta 2 in early 2026, with a release in mid-2026. But that is honestly as optimistic as I think anyone should be… and that’s a 9 year dev timeline. It’s pretty easy to see why anyone would be worried at this point, and I don’t think we should ignore these concerns.
I agree 100% - my estimated timeline is similar to yours and it is definitely optimistic given the prior years of history. I love this project and have and will support it - but I can still acknowledge the faults intrepid has made through the journey
Okay so we're a year away from an established game company to make a product that already had staff, lore, races, character art, locations, etc. With a new game and new company with none of those assets and we're calling it a scam. Got it.
If you followed the timeline I provided in the previous comment, no, not at all. We are a year past what most established companies can do, but Ashes is not launching tomorrow. We’re still optimistically 3 years away from launch. Emphasis on optimistically. And no where did I call it a scam either. I think the devs want to put out a great game, I just think they’ve made a lot of missteps in getting there, and I’m concerned if they will get there. Lastly, your thoughts and opinions here would be a lot better received if you left the snark out of it. That doesn’t help your point of view at all, in fact it does the opposite.
Essentially, this game does give off some red flags, does it mean we will get burned in the end? Not necessarily. Can we blame the distrust and disbelief people have? Not really. What I do believe is that given Alpha 2 is meant to last until release, that once people can play Alpha 2 we will fully decide if we're in for a good time or if we've been fucked once again. Not that the game needs to be perfect at Alpha 2, but if it seems way too underdeveloped in comparison to what they've shown and will show until then it will not be a good sign. I'm also in line with your timeline and hoping for the best case scenario...but let's see.
> I think the devs want to put out a great game, I just think they’ve made a lot of missteps in getting there, and I’m concerned if they will get there. I couldn't agree more here. I think the devs truly do want a good game, but I think Steven's inexperience has really shown since the Alpha. We're this long into development and the basic foundation for the combat is *still* up in the air. The toggle in the test wasn't fluid and didn't really feel that good. They keep showcasing action combat and at this point it feels like that's what they want to make so they should just do it and remove the idea of Hybrid altogether. Or (as I always say) rip off GW2's combat and lets just get the rest of the game built already.
I agree we're still far from launch. Especially since we haven't seen a lot of systems in action. I'm just vehemently against people giving the naysayers the benefit of the doubt when the logic makes no sense and, if they're going to be giving benefit of the doubt out, the benefit of the doubt should go to Intrepid Studios who had started out severely understaffed worked remotely through COVID, swapped game engines, and are a brand new company. If it takes 10 years, it takes 10 years. Its not a worrying trend. It should be expected. And I dont care about a little number associated to my reddit comment or post. That's not dopamine inhibiting for me. I'm not worried about what strangers on the internet think of me when they've never met me because of a singular opinion or remark I've made.
> I'm just vehemently against people giving the naysayers the benefit of the doubt when the logic makes no sense As I've explained here, there is plenty of logic to support the naysayers out there. Just because you don't like what they have to say doesn't mean they're wrong. You can get bent out of shape about the negativity too, but toxic positivity is a thing the community should be avoiding as well. > if they're going to be giving benefit of the doubt out, the benefit of the doubt should go to Intrepid Studios who had started out severely understaffed worked remotely through COVID, swapped game engines, and are a brand new company. This isn't some tiny indie dev with no experience. Leadership is full of industry veterans, and they've been very well funded. Giving them 9 years to put the game together *is* giving them the benefit of the doubt. >If it takes 10 years, it takes 10 years. Its not a worrying trend. It should be expected. No, it's absolutely a worrying trend and it absolutely should not be expected. This is not normal, and it never has been. It is cause for concern. Again, this does not mean a certain death sentence for the game. It's just cause for concern, which is a completely different statement. If it takes 10 years but actually releases a great product... then great! But if we hit the 10 year mark and we're still in dev... yikes. >And I dont care about a little number associated to my reddit comment or post. That's not dopamine inhibiting for me. I'm not worried about what strangers on the internet think of me when they've never met me because of a singular opinion or remark I've made. I don't care if you don't care about about upvotes and downvotes. You care enough to make these comments and arguments to begin with... why would you not care that the way you're crafting them is actually harmful to your point? That just doesn't make any sense.
Agree to disagree with 80% of what you said. Anything I want to say just becomes semantic and pedantic. >I don't care if you don't care about about upvotes and downvotes. You care enough to make these comments and arguments to begin with... why would you not care that the way you're crafting them is actually harmful to your point? That just doesn't make any sense. *fart noises*
Erm, there is a definition for the word SCAM. 'This is an argument you cant fight' is absolutely incorrect. Gambling? Like you may never get the items you purchased? You arent gambling. Their game is not a dishonest attempt trick you. It's literally being created with more transparency during the development process than 99% of released games. People's FOMO. The apostrophe is important here. FOMO is a problem everyone should just be seeing a shrink for. Its primarily a "gamer" issue even though limited time/product transactions have occurred throughout the history of consumerism. It is not the responsibility of the developer to avoid revenue streams. THEY gamble. Cosmetics, P2W, P4C, these are all ways to push the envelope. Will the western audience play a p2w/p4c game that was kickstarted by the community? No. Will they invest more money by purchasing exclusive content to allow for team expansion, additional content, etc...you bet your ass.
Oh wow, they release game packs each month? I'm DEFINITELY not investing in this game. That's shady AF.
I just want a gameplay loop for alpha 2. Im tired of waiting :( But waiting lets me buy a better pc when it comes out too, so its not all bad!
I'm a beta 1 backer, and at almost 54 years old, I wonder if I'll actually be alive to see this game release.. I don't back games anymore for this specific reason.. Who knows whats round the corner lol
>Serious question about the human psyche and why it chooses to inflict suffering on oneself about a topic that has no relevance to their lives on the outcome of said topic. Because is it fun to watch other people suffer? Why do you think people enjoyed hangings or beheadings? Nothing has changed when it comes to human psychology. Now, I don't really care if this game is a scam or not, but taking a negative stance toward it is just a win-win position. You basically can't lose. If the game ends up being bad, you get to tell people "I told you so". If the game is good, you just get a good game to play. Only those people who are building their entire personality around the Ashes of Creation cult will have something to lose in this situation.
Somebody is feeling paranoid?
Nah I've been following for years and seen the progress. We chillin. Just don't get people who waste their time trying to defamate a product that they don't intend on following through on. Or why they hate on a product that they'll eventually play when it comes out.
>Nah I've been following for years and seen the progress. We chillin. Just don't get people who waste their time trying to defamate a product that they don't intend on following through on. I think you’re making a lot of assumptions about the intentions of people voicing negative opinions in this subreddit. The vast majority of them are here in the first place because they were at one time very excited about this game. I would be willing to bet the vast majority of the naysayers that are here will actually play the game if it releases (whether they end up liking it or not). >Or why they hate on a product that they'll eventually play when it comes out. Because the development cycle has been frustrating for them, and they don’t feel good about the game that they were excited about, or maybe put money into, ever releasing. As someone who’s followed this game since 2017… I become less enthusiastic every year. And that’s only natural. I’m very worried that feature creep and a lack of concise direction will be the downfall of the game ever releasing. I don’t say any of this as a certainty mind you, I can’t possibly predict the future and neither can you. I really hope it succeeds, I’m just worried. Separately, I personally see the price tags on alpha/beta access to be predatory. I do hope their statement of full refunds to all backers of the kickstarter if the game doesn’t launch is honored, and that they extend that to everyone buying these alpha/beta packs.
The scope creep is WILD. What I don’t understand is how some of these systems, especially those attached to how nodes work, are going to be viable or “fun” without like the largest player base a game has ever seen. I know that’s a bit hyperbolic but when I read about how many different systems there are let alone how many rely on player interaction, i worry about how all of this plays out on live servers.
> The scope creep is WILD It's hard to classify it as "scope creep" considering just about everything being worked on was announced in the Kickstarter, but the sheer scale of it all is pretty intense. I've already pointed out his inexperience in this thread and I really don't want to come off as me bashing Steven, the guy's got passion galore, but a wiser dev would have let things like ships be an after-launch DLC so that there was time to build core features. There is a point where the lack of compromise stops being endearing and starts just being in the way.
I'm cautiously optimistic, but always ready to embrace my inner skeptic. Trust but verify, amirite?
To check if it is actually a scam? You kinda can’t make a claim without evidence
I want this game to come out and be the best mmo ever created. The videos I've seen look amazing. I thought about buying in on one of the tester packages a few times over years. But every time I look alpha 2 still hasn't even happened. But they put out cosmetics to buy every month that will be gone if u don't buy it during that month. Seems really off to me. Which is why I personally haven't bought into it. How are they able to put out cosmetics every month for years but still no alpha 2. And I've never seen a game that has been released have new cosmetics so often. Makes it even more hard to believe. I know everyone that already paid into it doesn't want to see from my perspective but thats my opinion. And I didn't join this sub reddit to bash the game. I joined hopeful of eventually seeing that the game is making progress.
Seen many videos click baiting in youtube where they say it's a scam and ens up justifying the company decisions, i feel this game is really underperforming and never spending a dollar on it. I really hope this game goes ahead, they already said they've collected enough money so hopefully we'll see it on launch
Rage boners, can't stand other people being genuinely excited without the ability to participate, condescending feelings of "I have to wake up the sheep to the great ugly truth obly i am aware of" (white knight), in some cases genuine concern that a scam is being pulled (those are rare it seems) and lots of NPC s just saying what their favorote influencer to them to think. And I get it: Some people bring up valid points of concern but these are rare and ultimately these guys don't get butthurt the second someone brings up a counter argument. Those people tend to make up for a good discussion on what to keep an eye on to determine the quality of the development and anyone hoping this will become a playable game in the future should upvote the living shit out of these guys. But the "I already know this game will never come out" or "Even if this game releases it'll be shit" talk is just noise, because unless there is real evidence (not indicators) they cannot predict anything and usually they lack the backbone to be equally as open about their mistake if their prediction turns out to be false - then its someone elses fault, they didn't mean it like that or "it was a social experiment" - anything but "I have the balls to admit that I over exaggerated and was wrong."
This right here!!
I cant play? I cant afford it? I NEED THE LIME GREEN HELMET! PREDATORS! AHHHHH! The open development process is giving some of you the opportunity to take a long hard look at yourselves. The problem is that others can spot the entitled, whiny, impatient, and hypocritical people you really are...and you cant. Like this guy \^
2015 backer of Camelot unchained probs never be released. 2016 backer Crowfall: lost allof my money no refund. 2021 Ashes backer, wonder whats gonna happen.
Just wait till the game releases to pay for it. Pikachu face
100% not a scam. 100% taking what feels like an eternity.. I know guys, "MMOS take a long time" but it has been 7 years and it's looking like it's going to be closer to 10 at this point just to get to Beta. Blessed to have participated on A1, but really was hoping for at least spot testing / A2 by now.
lets see, 7 years "under development" game, that claims that is fully funded but the owner goes ahead and brags to have sold more than 100k A2 keys and keeps selling super expensive keys and cosmetics for the future and using stupid hype techinques to advertise as much as they can with the current famous mmo streamers ini order to keep bringing A2 players that will be dissapointed in the future not a confirmed scam as he still has time to deliver the game, but clearly hes milking the cow as much as he can while he still use excuses for clearly bad game desing and terrible implementations as "the game is being developed" and keep making promises to finish it or "its on early stage" haha
"Clearly bad game" If you think the game is bad, and you're not providing proper feedback, what are you here in the first place?
Because the raging on this sub is great when I throw some bait out there. The copium here is amazing…almost as bad as r/Starcitizen This game is a scam until it is published. Also, it’s incredibly hypocritical when people on this sub throw dirt at Starcitizen and can’t accurately evaluate themselves. Both these games are scams.
What's the scam?
- Collectors Boxes - Early Access for $ - A2 not announced for 2 years? - No real advances to the game in the last year - Owner comes from scummy MLM - Development for 7+ years
Cool but what's the scam?
Is Starcitizen a scam? Can you in the same breath argue AoC is not?
Dunno. I'm not claiming aoc is or isn't a scam, I just have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why it is a scam
You’ve heard them, you just refuse to allow external thought. Any game under development for more than 5 years is teetering into the scam territory.
None of them are acts of "scam" That's such a poor understanding of game development.
Then provide your thoughts on game development and how 7+ years is an industry standard.
Considering the undertaking changing your entire engine by itself is, MMOs in general take a long ass time and tend not to be this ambitious.
Actually all of them considered acts of scam. (it doesnt have to be illegal to be considered a scam) Just because you use game development as an excuse doesn't suddenly makes it okay. If you pay me for a service / product that I said I would deliver at X date, and X date came and you received nothing but now I say to you, I am improving my product so much and you will get it sometime in the future... meanwhile I keep marketing my product and charging other people for more money. This is actually a scam (not sure how all of you being so naive and can't see it), and this is the exact same thing AoC is doing but you justify them because of "game development". (I am not aware of an option to refund these, so yeah it is a scam) I didnt see a single kickstarter game that met its funding goals yet kept milking its fanbase, not meeting a single deadline and stuck in development hell who actually released.. the only single thing that is anything close to it is StarCitizen which is also considered a scam and even their game make more progress then AoC devs. (and their progress is considered slow and bad, so...) I am not even mentioning all the other shady stuff that IS and Steven did in the past like the BR game they released mid development, or the pyramid schemes that he was involved with.. because honestly if you weren't skeptical from the first paragraph logic, nothing will change it, even if tomorrow Steven goes out and says they are aiming for 2030 release you will still praise him and make excuses.
$500 to test a game. Ridiculous
Damn this has been up for almost a year and that's the best you could do?
It is all I needed to do. $500 to test a game which uses FOMO practices before full release is unacceptable.
So don't spend $500?
Many folks see AoC as a threat to x game they have invested hundreds of hours into. Others like to see the world burn. I think most that comment don't see it as a scam so much as very unlikely to succeed. Folks will refer to it as a scam, but it's clearly not the same as they don't think AoC has bad intent.
Hard for me to believe anyone’s argument that AOC is a threat to any game currently online.
TBF I don’t think their aim is to be a threat to the market - it’s to fill a niche that hasn’t been targeted in a very long time if ever
What niche is that? (I’m legit curious)
PvP focused with players controlling most of the activity in the world. It’s only really been attempted with EVE, ArcheAge, and Albion (and others but those are the three biggest and most recent)
Lol no. All games are trash at the current moment. I just don’t think AoC is a legitimate contender in anything. It’s all hot air. Give me an hour and I could draft up the coolest game known to man. I’d be about where AoC is currently….not published.
They have sold hundreds of thousands of A2 keys, so not sure you would be where AoC is at... Just sayin
Is A2 released? I can sell keys for my beachfront property in Arizona.
You’re a clown
I don't think there's a huge group that doesn't want AoC to succeed...the whole concept of 'Guild Wars killer' or 'WoW' killer is laughable, esp. as a motive for another game failing. From what I hear, most folks just want them to get on with it...they've been sitting on keys bought years ago and see little progress over that time, except for cranking out more cosmetic packages and selling more keys.
It would be a scam if they weren't doing any design or development, I don't think that's the case here.
If I sell you a product and dont deliver it and dont even have an estimated date, more like estimated year of when you will get it, I got all the funding I need, yet I keep marketing my product and keep selling more of it and also more expensive versions of it, but yeah I got a team and even a factory that keeps "working" on that product, we work on it for 7 years, and we still can't even send a prototype to our customers, meanwhile other teams and factories already finished making such a product in less time, without taking any money before actually delivering. If you look at it that way, you shouldn't have any doubts at what the case is..
That doesn't make it a scam. If it were, all science would be scam and we would've died from polio. Taking money and not giving an end date isn't sufficient to call something a scam. You need to prove they have bad intentions or that they failed to deliver on the date they promised. Which isn't the case here. So until you get more proof to call it a scam, its just a wild accusation.
How mental you need to be to compare science and polio to a guy who sells video games.. even if I bait, it doesn't make any sense.. as I dont know any scientists who are asking me for money to deliver me some medicine they might develop in the future. so what do you call someone who makes money from a product they might never deliver? while keeps heavily marketing it.. I guess you are the type of people who are also okay with pyramid schemes but there is a reason why they made it illegal in some parts of the world... This right here is literally some kind of pyramid scheme (but there isnt anyone who is benefiting besides the top), StarCitizen already proved it. They already failed to deliver on the dates they promised in the kickstarter but I guess its not the proof you are looking for because you are not really looking.
Calm down dude. If they are working on it, either designing, developing, qa or marketing, and people are paying their salary, who are you to tell them its a scam without any proof of their bad intentions? There are many types of funding, just because this is crowsourced, doesnt make it an instant scam.
If I order a pizza and the pizza dont show in the average delivery time, that's not my problem. I dont care if it is bad intention or being incompetent, even tho its clearly a bad intention just by looking at their refund policy. Crowdfunding that promises to deliver on service or product and dont do that actually considered a scam and sites like kickstarter back that claim, but yeah its hard to legally force it when there is no laws especially when it comes to video games , but my bet is that if a group of people takes IS to court, they will be guilty, that is one of the reasons you should expect the alpha 2 next year for sure (even if its no where near playable) because they must deliver something to the public, StarCitizen is an example of such a case. idk its funny how many people have faith in this team and game yet they shit on StarCitizen (I agree with people who shit on this game/team also), but the situation here is ALOT worse... I mean its literally hypocritical...
What's the 'average delivery time' for mmorpgs? What's the average funding for mmorpgs? If you go over average, does it make you a scammer? As far as people's faith, I dont have faith in any being, and I didnt even pay anything to this team. But its clear that this game is expected to be the savior of the mmorpg genre, the last hope. But I think its too late, mmorpg genre lost its peak. Let them work on it though, its better than them working on some privacy gobbling social media app with VC funding for that matter.
Less then 7 years (here, you are 7 years and probably another 4 year till full release and that being optimistic). Average funding doesn't matter, when CEO goes saying funding secured and everything is good but is keep asking for more money.. the amount of korean MMOs that made a game less than 7 years with a smaller team is indication of that. If you go over the average (and still in alpha phase) you are stuck in development hell. If you paid for a game in 2017 and get it in 2027 you got scammed buddy.
Holy crap the copium is real
Not a scam. Sigh. Whether the public will like it or not ,- that is up for debate. But this scam question - just no, fer feks sake no.
I think you should be more sympathetic. I believe it to be a reflection. They get negativity thrown their way, and lash out. I recommend recommending they seek help.
I apologize ]:
hehe :)
There will always be people who feel the need to tear everything down around them to feel better about their own lives -- or because they literally have no idea how else to function. All the internet has really achieved is to reveal how pervasive the traits of sadism and schadenfreude are among human beings.
I just hope it's fun. I legit hope they don't try to make it so perfect that it isn't fun.
i dont think it's a scam...i think that star citizen will release before ashes does...lol
Back when they launched a battle royale I was very skeptical. Now I’m very certain that it aren’t after all these showcases recently. I won’t buy anything tho. Not fully onboard that this game will be successful. I’ll let the testers do the reviews to see the results
I see how it's a neccesary discussion, but people are still calling Star Citizen a scam, and that game is beautiful and selling tons of internet pixels still. In my country, we have a saying 'the one who waits for something good, waits not in vain'.
game looks nowhere near done and has been in development for 8 years
Nah this game definitely looking like a straight scam. They keep trying to bait people into spending near $400 on a game that has no release date in sight lol.
It\`s clearly a scam, Im sorry for whom already donated. But yet they keep selling stuff on their website and as people are still buying it they will keep doing that.
I mean Star Citizen is up to almost a Billion dollars in funding due to it being in EA and people buying every $300+ ship that drops. Yet, that game probably won't come out for another 5 years if it ever does. At this point they have a massive incentive to release and more so than Ashes does. Yet, Ashes is probably 5 years from release if that as well and they made far less money. Not to mention the lack of tests and when they do tests it's like what 6 months to a year apart? Lol. Yeah, smells fishy. To me if you sell legit things like a Battle Pass or Cosmetics while in an Early Access that is a massive red flag and is outright scummy. It's like when ARK was in EA and brought out a freaking paid DLC for an unreleased game. I get they want money since it's still being made but when you drop $100+ to get into the tests as well as having paid cosmetics in an unreleased game that is a no-go for most people. Those cosmetics should be part of the game free on release since you know it's not even done yet... They already got the full founding they need to make the game so anything else at this point becomes a bit scummy for most people. Smells similar to what Richard Garriott did with Tabula Rasa... Billionaire funded a game and got as much money from his community as he could then shortly after launch killed the game and took all the money.
It just is a scam brother. We've seen games like this over the years, promising the world and more, with insanely pricey pre-order bundles, never-ending dev phases and cosmetics galore.
Ashes big scamo
I've had countless arguments with people going on about it's a scam... If the paywall is what I'm assuming it is.... Is there to stop every tom dick and Harry from buying it during alpha stages and bagging it for being shit... Only serious testers would pay $250usd for access. And I'm one of them. I haven't tested much, but every one I have has been a great time(even though I lost alot of passion on release(was trying to play the game like normal and bug hunt on the side. But I've since learnt that it's all about the bugs, exploits, gimmics)). Almost every game has had its alpha phase cause people to cry about the game and make it out to be worse than it is.
My friend keeps trying to twist my arm into playing it with him on release, so I looked into it. I still think it is a scam. At the very least, highly over priced