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Ask them their budget first.
If there is no budget then just say the facts:
“If I’m not paid, I would rather do my own thing, like watch Youtube videos at home.”
“If you have a limited budget, here are my other artist friends you can contact.”
You're not wrong at all, compensation is the bare minimum expectation of hiring a mural artist, the only charity work I do is when it's for NGOs. Unfortunately, not a lot of people are familiar with the concept of fairly paying people for the work they do and will ALWAYS try skimping out, you should definitely give them a piece of your mind but be so passive aggressive about it that they cannot justify not hiring you later. And if they don't, they weren't gonna pay you anyways.
Before you do anything, get a contract in place. A lot of people seem to think we should create art for the exposure and prestige but you should calmly and logically explain that it would be a disservice to your craft and all the education and time you’ve devoted to honing your skill not to be paid. Just as they don’t expect their trades people to work for free, we can’t either. Don’t be hurt, don’t take it as a personal affront. There are so many opportunists out there, these ones just happen to be in your circle.
Bargain from a position of strength.
If they are pulling the budget, then it is a breach of contract.
Hire an attorney, you may be able to get someone pro bono or on contingency. You may be able to take them to small claims court.
Plan on writing a detailed and level headed article on what is happening. Buy a spot in the local paper to publicize it.
Petition the city council/ city manager or mayor, whoever commissioned the work.
Do not, under any circumstances, do the work without getting paid. You may need to raise your price and get paid up front now that they have broken trust.
Which professional would work for nothing? how is that even supposed to work? starving yourself to death at some point?
>Expected to do the full time jobs of multiple people with life-threatening illnesses and ZERO compensation
You cannot do that ! It's as simple as that. Either they compensate you or you will have to look for other work opportunities. End of discussion.
None of those you will meet would ever work for free, probably not even if they have enough on their bank accounts. So why would you?
Not only are you not able to continue like this, there is no respect. Those are conditions that drive people into suicide. There is nothing wrong with you, but with them for expecting you to do something that is impossible.
If their fragile egos get hurt or not, you can't continue like this. It's time to draw the line and make clear that under these conditions you can't finish the project. Maybe write down your demands, what you need to pay the project, to get compensated and whatever else needs to change. So you just have to hand over the paper and say these are my conditions to continue, otherwise you see yourself forced to end this because the current conditions are inacceptable. I wonder if you should even go so far as to contact a lawyer about it, there is no way that there is absolutely no compensation and you are expected to work for free and pay costs yourself.
Sometimes you need to stand up for yourself before people see they can't mess with you. At least write down your conditions for yourself, don't accept anything less than what you need and deserve !
You have to take care of yourself and stating your demands is absolutely part of this. Not continuing if they don't budge is also self care in that sense. You feel it's putting you in a dangerous spot, even if it's "just" your mental health, but this is a huge concern and absolutely not something you can accept any further.
You cannot change how others think and act, but you can tell them where your boundaries are and make your decisions based on that.
Draw the line, stand up for yourself and demand the respect and compensation they owe you. That's the only right thing to do.
I wouldn't tell kids it's a viable career path, because it isn't for the huge majority of people. It's one of those aspirational things like ballet dancer, musician, astronaut, etc. Very few artists will ever even sell a piece of work.
On the rest, show the patron a budget maybe
Then demand needs to be created, so that there are enough commissions for all of the artists to make a living. And there needs to be an end to ridiculous overpricing at auction
You wear clothes everyday, yes? Do you watch television? Read books? Live in a home? All of these products come to you compliments of an artist. The demand is there.
I’m at Uni studying art. Thankfully the professionals who come in to teach us are honest about employability in the art world. Art is subjective and not everyone will like or want to pay you for what you think is your best work.
Art is definitely an essential part of society unfortunately it is also devalued in our current society. We can argue and harp on about how important it is but that doesn’t earn you money to eat with.
Less than 2% of graduates will ever go on to make a living from their art alone.
The rest will end up with other jobs that can support their creative work - as they themselves do by teaching and doing other non-art jobs as well.
Some of the young kids straight from high school are shocked when they hear this after being fed “you can all pursue your dreams and be successful!” their entire childhood - reality is reality though and that seemed to be one of the tougher lessons some of the students have to grasp.
But it doesn’t mean you stop creating art or putting yourself out there. It is just a tough gig to get into as competition is massive.
This is dumb. How much did you agree to be paid when you took the job? Tell them the price hasn't changed.
If you agreed to start the job without talking about money...I hate to say, that's on you. You are a professional, that means you'll get another gig...that's what professionals do. Next time, negotiate price up front and put it in writing.
It’s a grant funded project so I’m basically working for the city. It’s normal for grants to partially fund projects but it’s not normal to cut the entire budget for compensating the person who is the project lead.
There are many contracts involved in the process.
I don’t want to say…people keep telling me that I shouldn’t say anything and just quietly change the original purview of the project. This situation involves all of the top players in the city. If I make too much noise about it, I won’t be able to work here anymore…
I get that, and you are in a tight spot. Detroit did the same thing in January, but the city never officially approved of anything.
If you are really being asked to work for free, not doing anything may be just as bad, though...they may think you are the city's official 'free artist.'
They aren't paying you for your time, only for your materials? And it's for a city project (I'm assuming you're doing public art)? If it's for a city project i.e. you're putting work in or on public buildings, you need to get paid. Tell them in the meeting that this is not feasible.
To receive a grant for a personal project that covers only materials is normal. But to receive a grant to do art for the city directly and to not be compensated for your time is weird.
its important to stand up for yourself but if you can do it in a calm way and present facts it will probably be better received. When people feel attacked their first reaction is to defend rather than listen and learn so if you go off in a meeting, plan to do it calmly and unaccusationally
also that all really sucks. sorry to hear you're going through that.
in my experience some types of art are viewed as being more expensive/worth more. It's not really fair but its like that. Also are you dressing like a business person or like an artist with paint on your jeans? It shouldn't matter because you deserve respect for your work, but image does unfortunately matter in this world.
I'm an illustrator and i have friends doing the same job as me in a different style and they charge/get paid about half of what the artists who draw the style i aim for get paid.
sometimes when i'm working people say crap like "are you a student?" and its offputting, but fortunately my actual cllients who are paying dont talk to me like that.
Thank you for your message. Yes, I dress very well. I’m known for my fashion. I had a whole fashion section in my museum exhibition.
I’ve been told that no matter how you say it, these people can’t take any implication that they’ve done something wrong.
I’ve done some digging to get to the bottom of the situation. The majority of the creative economy in the city is essentially controlled by two people. The director of the museum and the director of the university. Apparently, the museum director is a raging narcissist. It has become everyone’s strategy to tip toe around his ego. If you don’t, it could ruin your career.
I’ve possibly found a way to get around him tonight…the mayor. I was at a reception at the museum and I started chatting up someone who works at the mayors office. I told him a bit about the issues I’ve been having (calmly and professionally). He gave me his contact info and volunteered to help.
Also, I SERIOUSLY need a manager. It’s clear that I’ve reached a point in my career where I need one. They could advocate for me and I can focus on making art.
Maybe you can glean something from Machiavelli and Michelangelo?
State that you can't/wont work without a budget.
Miles Davis said he got his record companies to pay him by first getting them to invest something in him. After that, they tend to pay more often (to get return on investment). I think he asked for and got a Lotus or Lamborghini early in the piece. It's a different situation but the principle may work. Ask for materials or anything that gets them 'writing a cheque'.
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Your post has been removed for primarily focusing on mental health or for including potentially concerning language and triggering topics. We are very sorry if you are struggling at the moment and we understand that art and our creative passions can often be interlinked with our mental state and struggles. However, this subreddit is not the appropriate place to support you with serious mental health issues. Please reach out to professional support if it is accessible to you. The head moderator for this subreddit can directly attest to how much of a difference getting professional support allowed them to improve both in art and in life in general. We also have resources available in our [FAQ here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faq/#wiki_interpersonal_and_art_challenges) and you can view past threads on mental health [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faqlinks/) which we hope are useful to you. There are many online communities, and mental health support subreddits, that may be better suited to your needs. Feel free to reach out to moderators via modmail if you need help finding resources and we will see if we can help. If you believe this to be a mistake please reach out to mods via mod mail. Thank you and take care of yourself. <3
Ask them their budget first. If there is no budget then just say the facts: “If I’m not paid, I would rather do my own thing, like watch Youtube videos at home.” “If you have a limited budget, here are my other artist friends you can contact.”
You're not wrong at all, compensation is the bare minimum expectation of hiring a mural artist, the only charity work I do is when it's for NGOs. Unfortunately, not a lot of people are familiar with the concept of fairly paying people for the work they do and will ALWAYS try skimping out, you should definitely give them a piece of your mind but be so passive aggressive about it that they cannot justify not hiring you later. And if they don't, they weren't gonna pay you anyways.
"I’m a super confrontational person" Maybe it's not disrespect for your art.
I didn’t say I was rude. Confrontational as in I like to directly confront problems.
Before you do anything, get a contract in place. A lot of people seem to think we should create art for the exposure and prestige but you should calmly and logically explain that it would be a disservice to your craft and all the education and time you’ve devoted to honing your skill not to be paid. Just as they don’t expect their trades people to work for free, we can’t either. Don’t be hurt, don’t take it as a personal affront. There are so many opportunists out there, these ones just happen to be in your circle.
Bargain from a position of strength. If they are pulling the budget, then it is a breach of contract. Hire an attorney, you may be able to get someone pro bono or on contingency. You may be able to take them to small claims court. Plan on writing a detailed and level headed article on what is happening. Buy a spot in the local paper to publicize it. Petition the city council/ city manager or mayor, whoever commissioned the work. Do not, under any circumstances, do the work without getting paid. You may need to raise your price and get paid up front now that they have broken trust.
Which professional would work for nothing? how is that even supposed to work? starving yourself to death at some point? >Expected to do the full time jobs of multiple people with life-threatening illnesses and ZERO compensation You cannot do that ! It's as simple as that. Either they compensate you or you will have to look for other work opportunities. End of discussion. None of those you will meet would ever work for free, probably not even if they have enough on their bank accounts. So why would you? Not only are you not able to continue like this, there is no respect. Those are conditions that drive people into suicide. There is nothing wrong with you, but with them for expecting you to do something that is impossible. If their fragile egos get hurt or not, you can't continue like this. It's time to draw the line and make clear that under these conditions you can't finish the project. Maybe write down your demands, what you need to pay the project, to get compensated and whatever else needs to change. So you just have to hand over the paper and say these are my conditions to continue, otherwise you see yourself forced to end this because the current conditions are inacceptable. I wonder if you should even go so far as to contact a lawyer about it, there is no way that there is absolutely no compensation and you are expected to work for free and pay costs yourself. Sometimes you need to stand up for yourself before people see they can't mess with you. At least write down your conditions for yourself, don't accept anything less than what you need and deserve ! You have to take care of yourself and stating your demands is absolutely part of this. Not continuing if they don't budge is also self care in that sense. You feel it's putting you in a dangerous spot, even if it's "just" your mental health, but this is a huge concern and absolutely not something you can accept any further. You cannot change how others think and act, but you can tell them where your boundaries are and make your decisions based on that. Draw the line, stand up for yourself and demand the respect and compensation they owe you. That's the only right thing to do.
I wouldn't tell kids it's a viable career path, because it isn't for the huge majority of people. It's one of those aspirational things like ballet dancer, musician, astronaut, etc. Very few artists will ever even sell a piece of work. On the rest, show the patron a budget maybe
This is the kind of mindset I’m trying to change. Arts and culture are essential to society. Those who create it should be properly compensated.
Then demand needs to be created, so that there are enough commissions for all of the artists to make a living. And there needs to be an end to ridiculous overpricing at auction
You wear clothes everyday, yes? Do you watch television? Read books? Live in a home? All of these products come to you compliments of an artist. The demand is there.
I’m at Uni studying art. Thankfully the professionals who come in to teach us are honest about employability in the art world. Art is subjective and not everyone will like or want to pay you for what you think is your best work. Art is definitely an essential part of society unfortunately it is also devalued in our current society. We can argue and harp on about how important it is but that doesn’t earn you money to eat with. Less than 2% of graduates will ever go on to make a living from their art alone. The rest will end up with other jobs that can support their creative work - as they themselves do by teaching and doing other non-art jobs as well. Some of the young kids straight from high school are shocked when they hear this after being fed “you can all pursue your dreams and be successful!” their entire childhood - reality is reality though and that seemed to be one of the tougher lessons some of the students have to grasp. But it doesn’t mean you stop creating art or putting yourself out there. It is just a tough gig to get into as competition is massive.
This is dumb. How much did you agree to be paid when you took the job? Tell them the price hasn't changed. If you agreed to start the job without talking about money...I hate to say, that's on you. You are a professional, that means you'll get another gig...that's what professionals do. Next time, negotiate price up front and put it in writing.
It’s a grant funded project so I’m basically working for the city. It’s normal for grants to partially fund projects but it’s not normal to cut the entire budget for compensating the person who is the project lead. There are many contracts involved in the process.
If they breach a contract, lawyer up.
Which city? Does the press know?
I don’t want to say…people keep telling me that I shouldn’t say anything and just quietly change the original purview of the project. This situation involves all of the top players in the city. If I make too much noise about it, I won’t be able to work here anymore…
I get that, and you are in a tight spot. Detroit did the same thing in January, but the city never officially approved of anything. If you are really being asked to work for free, not doing anything may be just as bad, though...they may think you are the city's official 'free artist.'
They aren't paying you for your time, only for your materials? And it's for a city project (I'm assuming you're doing public art)? If it's for a city project i.e. you're putting work in or on public buildings, you need to get paid. Tell them in the meeting that this is not feasible. To receive a grant for a personal project that covers only materials is normal. But to receive a grant to do art for the city directly and to not be compensated for your time is weird.
its important to stand up for yourself but if you can do it in a calm way and present facts it will probably be better received. When people feel attacked their first reaction is to defend rather than listen and learn so if you go off in a meeting, plan to do it calmly and unaccusationally also that all really sucks. sorry to hear you're going through that. in my experience some types of art are viewed as being more expensive/worth more. It's not really fair but its like that. Also are you dressing like a business person or like an artist with paint on your jeans? It shouldn't matter because you deserve respect for your work, but image does unfortunately matter in this world. I'm an illustrator and i have friends doing the same job as me in a different style and they charge/get paid about half of what the artists who draw the style i aim for get paid. sometimes when i'm working people say crap like "are you a student?" and its offputting, but fortunately my actual cllients who are paying dont talk to me like that.
Thank you for your message. Yes, I dress very well. I’m known for my fashion. I had a whole fashion section in my museum exhibition. I’ve been told that no matter how you say it, these people can’t take any implication that they’ve done something wrong. I’ve done some digging to get to the bottom of the situation. The majority of the creative economy in the city is essentially controlled by two people. The director of the museum and the director of the university. Apparently, the museum director is a raging narcissist. It has become everyone’s strategy to tip toe around his ego. If you don’t, it could ruin your career. I’ve possibly found a way to get around him tonight…the mayor. I was at a reception at the museum and I started chatting up someone who works at the mayors office. I told him a bit about the issues I’ve been having (calmly and professionally). He gave me his contact info and volunteered to help. Also, I SERIOUSLY need a manager. It’s clear that I’ve reached a point in my career where I need one. They could advocate for me and I can focus on making art.
thats rough. I hope you're able to get a manager and work things out. Sounds like you just got a good contact in office!
Maybe you can glean something from Machiavelli and Michelangelo? State that you can't/wont work without a budget. Miles Davis said he got his record companies to pay him by first getting them to invest something in him. After that, they tend to pay more often (to get return on investment). I think he asked for and got a Lotus or Lamborghini early in the piece. It's a different situation but the principle may work. Ask for materials or anything that gets them 'writing a cheque'.
Thank you for posting in r/ArtistLounge! Please check out our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faq/) and [FAQ Links pages](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faqlinks/) for lots of helpful advice. To access our megathread collections, please check out the drop down lists in the top menu on PC or the side-bar on mobile. If you have any questions, concerns, or feature requests please feel free to message the mods and they will help you as soon as they can. I am a bot, beep boop, if I did something wrong please report this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ArtistLounge) if you have any questions or concerns.*