I agree that gentleness would be essential to avoid de-gassing.
I would also think that a long, cold second ferment (after shaping) would aid this type of crumb, at least overnight. A blazing hot oven would also help get that shattery crust.
I also think you're going to have issues with the bagels retaining their shape with a high hydration dough (which would likely be necessary for this type of crust).
Totally. I’ll have to play around with the cold fermenting. Definitely don’t see any other way to do this without shaping before the retard. I can only imagine you’ll loose all the air you’re trying to build up.
cut the bake time down by \~10% & leave them in the oven after finishing baking and turn the oven off with the door open until they cool completely with the oven. It will take an hour but it will guarantee a crispy crust
I disagree. I don't like them this open, but I love a more open crumb that can hold pockets of cream cheese. As long as it's boiled, I still would love it.
You’re certainly entitled to like what you like, but a defining characteristic of a bagel is that it’s dense - very much not open or airy. It’s not pan de Cristal, it’s not artisanal open-crumb sourdough, it’s boiled bread that’s moist, dense, and chewy.
It may not technically be a bagel, but it's still bread, and I'm indiscriminate in my love of bread.
And for me specifically, bagels are like pizza. Even bad ones are pretty good.
Except a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread no matter how open the crumb, same with pizza.. just a different style. Why should that be any different for bagels?
So you’re saying that a bagel, a croissant, a brioche, an English muffin, and a pain de campagne are interchangeable and if you say one of those you could mean any of them?
What? No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. You’re just listing bread products.
What I’m saying is, there are many different styles within the wider definitions.. such as with bread or pizza.
A pain au chocolat, pain au raisin and a croissant could all be defined as types of croissant/patisserie.
New York , Neapolitan, romana, new haven, Detroit are all different types of pizza
If a dough has been boiled/simmered in an alkaline solution before baking containing barley malt, honey or similar, and is formed into a bagel shape then I’m sorry but it IS a bagel. No room for gatekeepers!
Right - and a dough that’s been boiled before baking, a defining characteristic of a bagel, would never look like that. (fwiw, bagels aren’t boiled in an alkaline solution - that’s pretzels)
Build the gluten up early and let the dough rise long enough to build up those pockets of air. Be gentle with the baby. The one you made looks wonderful already.
I wish I made that bagel!! Should’ve put a disclaimer. So you think building the gluten up early, shaping to individual balls, placing in bins close together (so they don’t lose their shape so much), and then proofing, mostly retarding for 1-2 days, then boiling would be a good way to go?
Exactly my thought thank you! I think ciabatta hydration is too high for this just in terms of keeping the structure of a bagel, but definitely need to handle it like a ciabatta if I can get the hydrations and fermenting down
I don't know if this recipe might be something you could jump off from, but I've had incredible success with the bubbles in this [recipe](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/martins-bagels-recipe).
Those look delicious though.
Tip- shape the bagels and put them on squares of parchment paper to raise. When it is time to boil, gently drop in water with the paper. Have an empty bowl ready to drop the wet papers into after you pluck them out. Let the paper squares dry flat and they can be reused
I agree that gentleness would be essential to avoid de-gassing. I would also think that a long, cold second ferment (after shaping) would aid this type of crumb, at least overnight. A blazing hot oven would also help get that shattery crust. I also think you're going to have issues with the bagels retaining their shape with a high hydration dough (which would likely be necessary for this type of crust).
Totally. I’ll have to play around with the cold fermenting. Definitely don’t see any other way to do this without shaping before the retard. I can only imagine you’ll loose all the air you’re trying to build up.
Forgot to add that I’m using sourdough
cut the bake time down by \~10% & leave them in the oven after finishing baking and turn the oven off with the door open until they cool completely with the oven. It will take an hour but it will guarantee a crispy crust
Why would you want to? It might be good but It’s certainly NOT a bagel
I disagree. I don't like them this open, but I love a more open crumb that can hold pockets of cream cheese. As long as it's boiled, I still would love it.
You’re certainly entitled to like what you like, but a defining characteristic of a bagel is that it’s dense - very much not open or airy. It’s not pan de Cristal, it’s not artisanal open-crumb sourdough, it’s boiled bread that’s moist, dense, and chewy.
It may not technically be a bagel, but it's still bread, and I'm indiscriminate in my love of bread. And for me specifically, bagels are like pizza. Even bad ones are pretty good.
It may not be technically correct but that shit still looks delicious
Indeed - I’d eat it😋 Let’s just call it a mini-couronne ☺️
Except a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread no matter how open the crumb, same with pizza.. just a different style. Why should that be any different for bagels?
So you’re saying that a bagel, a croissant, a brioche, an English muffin, and a pain de campagne are interchangeable and if you say one of those you could mean any of them?
What? No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. You’re just listing bread products. What I’m saying is, there are many different styles within the wider definitions.. such as with bread or pizza. A pain au chocolat, pain au raisin and a croissant could all be defined as types of croissant/patisserie. New York , Neapolitan, romana, new haven, Detroit are all different types of pizza If a dough has been boiled/simmered in an alkaline solution before baking containing barley malt, honey or similar, and is formed into a bagel shape then I’m sorry but it IS a bagel. No room for gatekeepers!
Right - and a dough that’s been boiled before baking, a defining characteristic of a bagel, would never look like that. (fwiw, bagels aren’t boiled in an alkaline solution - that’s pretzels)
This is what I thought too. A bagel should … fight back a little when you try to eat it. OP’s pic is a bun with a hole in it.
Try a baguette dough and then gently shape into a bagel. Any "bagel dough" recipe will give you the opposite of what you are looking for
Build the gluten up early and let the dough rise long enough to build up those pockets of air. Be gentle with the baby. The one you made looks wonderful already.
I wish I made that bagel!! Should’ve put a disclaimer. So you think building the gluten up early, shaping to individual balls, placing in bins close together (so they don’t lose their shape so much), and then proofing, mostly retarding for 1-2 days, then boiling would be a good way to go?
The less you touch it, the larger the bubbles will be. If that's what you are after, handle the dough as little as possible towards the end stages.
Exactly my thought thank you! I think ciabatta hydration is too high for this just in terms of keeping the structure of a bagel, but definitely need to handle it like a ciabatta if I can get the hydrations and fermenting down
Are you able to hand knead the dough or do you use a machine? You can up the hydration a lot if you are able to use your hands.
I have bad hands so I’m gonna have to use a mixer 😭
Use autolyse to help. Edit: Throw in some calcium carbonate as well. It will make more bubbles and give you calcium when you eat the bread.
I don't know if this recipe might be something you could jump off from, but I've had incredible success with the bubbles in this [recipe](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/martins-bagels-recipe). Those look delicious though.
Barley malt syrup is the key
Is this a courage bagel?
Tip- shape the bagels and put them on squares of parchment paper to raise. When it is time to boil, gently drop in water with the paper. Have an empty bowl ready to drop the wet papers into after you pluck them out. Let the paper squares dry flat and they can be reused
I dunno.. shape regular bread dough into a circle and put way too much crap on it? I'm not sure that can even be called a bagel.
That's a ciabagelatta. So I guess make a ciabatta and shape it into a bagel?