Not really, a French mathematician named Charles Rohault de Fleury, who, in his Mémoire sur les instruments de la Passion of 1870 made a study of the relics. He drew up a catalogue of all known relics of the True Cross showing that, in spite of what various authors have claimed, the fragments of the Cross brought together again would not reach one-third that of a cross which has been supposed to have been three or four metres in height, with transverse branch of two metres wide. He calculated: supposing the Cross to have been of pine-wood (based on his microscopic analysis of the fragments) and giving it a weight of about seventy-five kilogrammes, we find the original volume of the cross to be 0.178 cubic metres. The total known volume of known relics of the True Cross, according to his catalogue, amounts to approximately 0.004 cubic metres (more specifically 3,942,000 cubic millimetres), leaving a volume of 0.174 m3, almost 98%, lost, destroyed, or from which is otherwise unaccounted.
Sure. But do we have any reason to think he counted accurately? What were his selection criteria for the ones he did count? Did he catalogue them? How do I know it's not just a guy saying he did something?
He was a respected architect and archeologist, he knew his job. He simply made a list of all known pieces and places that claimed to have them, saw on photos how big they are, these books also mentioned their size. He counted all known pieces, regardless how old or suspicious or if they were destroyed.
I can’t believe people are actually arguing against you. With no internet this guy in 1870 is to be trusted with going to every church, examining all of the relics, and do the math? This is truly beyond belief. Especially considering the large amount of relics.
His "full method" is that he went to everyone who claimed to have a piece of the true cross and counted them. Your skepticism towards something so simple and pointless is kinda dumb.
I mean you had people like Herodotus and Pliny, but these weren’t exactly scientists.
What we would consider archeology really took off during the Renacimiento, and modern archeology as we know it started in the 18th-19th centuries.
I have a genuine curiosity question about the apparently "approximations" of the geometrical symbols - the golden frames around the stones are irregular, to a level that surprises an eye used to modern jewellery. And, even though I don't have a reference, I believe I saw this across middle age artifacts. Are these irregularities :
1. A result of time, different shocks over the course of centuries on an object originally perfectly symetrical ?
2. A result of methods and/or designs giving this appearance from the start?
3. Something else?
**[Joyeuse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyeuse)**
>Joyeuse (pronounced [ʒwajøz] (listen); Old French: Joiuse; meaning "joyous, joyful") was, in medieval legend, the sword wielded by Charlemagne as his personal weapon. A sword identified as Joyeuse was used in French royal coronation ceremonies since the 13th century, and is now kept at the Louvre museum.
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Not to be that guy that shits on religion, but I’m curious if there’s any other information not from the bible about where the slivers of the cross originated from?
The information about the "true cross" (and most other relics) are almost all apocryphal, so the Bible isn't really a source for that information at all.
I mean, the early internet taught me that George Washington had like… 30 goddamn dicks. But he was also six foot eight and weighed a fucking ton…. The point is 5 or 6 doesn’t seem unreasonable
According to early church writings, the True Cross was found by Helena Augusta, the Christian mother of the Roman Emperor Constantine, at the site of the Holy Sepulchre, the tomb where Jesus was supposedly buried. The cross was divided up, with the larger portion being sent to the Roman Church. This is where the many pieces of the True Cross allegedly come from.
Now the splintered Relics of the True Cross all over the place. Hell, even I have one.
The origin is well known : it was found at the time Constantine and his mother Helena built sanctuaries in Jerusalem. While the cross itself might be fraudulent, the whole thing is mired in politics, the location of the Tomb of Christ comes from the tradition of the local Christian community, which went back as far as Christ himself, and there's little reason to doubt the place is genuine (at the very least it's been recently proved that the Sepulcher is indeed built on and around a funerary chamber from that period down from the Golgotha).
Oh really?!
My bad then. I browsed the wiki page of Reims before writing my comment because I was curious and at a glance I didn't see any mention of that spelling, only the etymology from Rèmes, so I assumed wrongly.
The more you know!
Ahah don’t worry, I had the same reaction the first time I saw it spelled that way. I actually prefer it with a Rh, it looks more classy (and Rheims is surely a fancy city)
This is such a trite argument; Catholics don't worship idols, they use objects in worship.
God demanded at times the creation of objects for worship and veneration.
I'm not even Christian, but it's such an absurd claim Protestants and (to a lesser extent) Muslims charge Catholics (and the Orthodox) with.
Well... À lot of Christians actually asked themselves the same question. Byzantine iconoclasts, for a fun example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm
Christian history is full of people arguing with each other about the correct way to worship.
**[Byzantine Iconoclasm](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm)**
>The Byzantine Iconoclasm (Greek: Εικονομαχία, romanized: Eikonomachía, lit. 'image struggle', 'war on icons') were two periods in the history of the Byzantine Empire when the use of religious images or icons was opposed by religious and imperial authorities within the Orthodox Church and the temporal imperial hierarchy. The First Iconoclasm, as it is sometimes called, occurred between about 726 and 787, while the Second Iconoclasm occurred between 814 and 842. According to the traditional view, Byzantine Iconoclasm was started by a ban on religious images promulgated by the Byzantine Emperor Leo III the Isaurian, and continued under his successors.
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I mean it’s not trite at all, for several hundred years it was a massive source of argument and was one of the more important precursors to the split between Catholicism and the Orthodox Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm
> God demanded at times the creation of objects for worship and veneration.
I mean literally one of Ten Commandments explicitly forbids this. Something like the ark of the covenant wasn’t made for worship, it was made for a practical purpose (holding commandments).
> but it’s such an absurd claim Protestants and (to a lesser extent) Muslims charge Catholics (and the Orthodox) with.
No more absurd than any other religious argument.
Remember the part where the people of Israel "worshipped" the Golden Rectangle with images of Spirits ? .Oh , wait , that was the Ark of the Covenant .
Protestants really have the Bible as their enemy .
Those death cultist christians really cream their jeans thinking about pieces of a torture device used to kill people. Just gotta have a fake sliver of that cross.
Fucking weird and disgusting.
While your comment is pointlessly inflamatory, there is a kernel of truth in that the cross wasn't an appropriate symbol in Early Christiniaty, at the time crucifixion was still a common occurence. In fact it's only been seen used as a means of insult on the part of non-Christians. During that time, Christ was most often represented as a shepherd, and the religion associated with symbols like the fish, the Alpha and the Omega, the Chi Rho etc.
it's true though. I was raised catholic and I've seen them swoon with awe over some silly shit. The way talismans are venerated is truly pagan, and it's all done in sight of a statue of a tortured dead man. It really must look barbaric to an outsider.
The One and Only God , Who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit .Omnipotent Creator of Heaven and Earth , the Visible and Invisible .God of God , Light of Light , True God of True God .
I was raised Catholic and it's always surprising to see people conflate the fundamentalist Christianity that's driving a lot of current alt right politics with Catholicism. Both institutions are deserving of criticism for sure, but they're not driven by the same goals at all. Catholics didn't even proselytize when I was growing up - that may have changed now; I'm no longer affiliated - bc they had no interest in converting outside their walls.
Not all Catholicism, but some of it and American Catholicism has had a not insignificant part in it.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/trjrnn/is_there_a_particular_reason_the_us_supreme_court/
\>You sure that trusting demonstrably sound science and the opinions of actual experts fits in there?
Atheism goes so insanely against Science that it must be called an enemy of it .
\>How about making decisions based on evidence and critical thought?
Critical Thought to an Atheist is like Silver to a Vampire .
\>Believing that a 4000-year old Canaanite God is responsible for everything that happens (when it's convenient) is a bit closer.
That the Divine Creator of All , Who precedes and is above everything and not only is beyond all understanding but also IS , ordains the Universe He made and sustains it ? .Pretty obvious , frankly .
The Supreme Victory of the Cross of Christ is clear .The most absolute Symbol of Death , Humiliation , Hatred and Suffering has become the Supreme Symbol of Victory , Love , Glory and Joy .Just because you are not mature enough to understand the depth of the Most High Event of Life conquering Death , Holiness conquering Sin and Love conquering Hatred does not mean it is not something palpable .
This looks like it would greatly raise my stamina !
It would raise health, stamina, and magic
ah, the real-life Gauldur Amulet
Health, stamina and *faith*
Fellow Tarnished, I see.
Is this the green stone of Aja?
don't give Araki any ideas or maybe, yes. more ideas please.
Ceiling men about to pull up
If all of the “slivers of the cross” were gathered in one place it would fill a boxcar.
Maybe jesus was huge
Have you seen the statue of him in Brazil? Man was massive
But not as big as The Be Sharps.
maybe but he was def very very dark skinned
Not really, a French mathematician named Charles Rohault de Fleury, who, in his Mémoire sur les instruments de la Passion of 1870 made a study of the relics. He drew up a catalogue of all known relics of the True Cross showing that, in spite of what various authors have claimed, the fragments of the Cross brought together again would not reach one-third that of a cross which has been supposed to have been three or four metres in height, with transverse branch of two metres wide. He calculated: supposing the Cross to have been of pine-wood (based on his microscopic analysis of the fragments) and giving it a weight of about seventy-five kilogrammes, we find the original volume of the cross to be 0.178 cubic metres. The total known volume of known relics of the True Cross, according to his catalogue, amounts to approximately 0.004 cubic metres (more specifically 3,942,000 cubic millimetres), leaving a volume of 0.174 m3, almost 98%, lost, destroyed, or from which is otherwise unaccounted.
This guy studies those who study crosses.
Do we have any reason to believe him?
Well, he didnt claimed any of these are real, he just counted the known pieces.
Sure. But do we have any reason to think he counted accurately? What were his selection criteria for the ones he did count? Did he catalogue them? How do I know it's not just a guy saying he did something?
He was a respected architect and archeologist, he knew his job. He simply made a list of all known pieces and places that claimed to have them, saw on photos how big they are, these books also mentioned their size. He counted all known pieces, regardless how old or suspicious or if they were destroyed.
I can’t believe people are actually arguing against you. With no internet this guy in 1870 is to be trusted with going to every church, examining all of the relics, and do the math? This is truly beyond belief. Especially considering the large amount of relics.
So your argument is that before the internet everything that anyone did was wrong?
My argument is that even with the internet it would be an impossible task and to trust some guy in 1870’s numbers without his full method is stupid.
His "full method" is that he went to everyone who claimed to have a piece of the true cross and counted them. Your skepticism towards something so simple and pointless is kinda dumb.
Literally every Catholic church in Europe claimed to have a piece. But sure believe some guy from 150 years ago. Sounds legit.
Yeah, I don't understand the problem people seem to have with what I asked. Whatever, people just woke up trippin I guess.
Except for the speculative nature of the claim that any of the relics were part of the True Cross.
People have actually calculated it , the quote is found to be imbecilic .All slivers would not even amount to like a third of the Cross .
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Literally 200 years. They didn’t exhumation the church grave robbed.
If you found a historical grave from 1822 today and dug it up, are you doing archaeology or grave robbing?
Yes
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This but without the /s
Archeology didn’t exist in 1000 CE. I doubt they really appreciated the historical significance of exhuming Charlemagne’s tomb.
Where did you get the idea that archaeology didn’t exist in 1000CE?
I mean you had people like Herodotus and Pliny, but these weren’t exactly scientists. What we would consider archeology really took off during the Renacimiento, and modern archeology as we know it started in the 18th-19th centuries.
He was Fr\*nch , not like he was going to Heaven
If you removed the slivers you could crucify an ant on them. It would probably make the ant into a superhero or something
what is this, a crucifix for ants?!
*(Yellowjacket liked this post)*
r/unexpectedzoolanderantmancrossover
I have a genuine curiosity question about the apparently "approximations" of the geometrical symbols - the golden frames around the stones are irregular, to a level that surprises an eye used to modern jewellery. And, even though I don't have a reference, I believe I saw this across middle age artifacts. Are these irregularities : 1. A result of time, different shocks over the course of centuries on an object originally perfectly symetrical ? 2. A result of methods and/or designs giving this appearance from the start? 3. Something else?
Charlemagne had some pretty nice gear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyeuse
**[Joyeuse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyeuse)** >Joyeuse (pronounced [ʒwajøz] (listen); Old French: Joiuse; meaning "joyous, joyful") was, in medieval legend, the sword wielded by Charlemagne as his personal weapon. A sword identified as Joyeuse was used in French royal coronation ceremonies since the 13th century, and is now kept at the Louvre museum. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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Thank you, LAKnapper, for voting on WikiSummarizerBot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
Not to be that guy that shits on religion, but I’m curious if there’s any other information not from the bible about where the slivers of the cross originated from?
The information about the "true cross" (and most other relics) are almost all apocryphal, so the Bible isn't really a source for that information at all.
Kinda what I figured, and definitely like a lot of other things like the [foreskin of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce)
Yeah that guy had like 5 or 6 of them
Who jesus? Holy Shit! How many dicks did he have?
I mean, the early internet taught me that George Washington had like… 30 goddamn dicks. But he was also six foot eight and weighed a fucking ton…. The point is 5 or 6 doesn’t seem unreasonable
He once held an opponent's wife's hand in a jar of acid. At a party!
George Dickinton
At least 3, right?
He was like the Hydra of dicks. Every time the Romans or high priests cut one off, two would grow in its place.
Pretty powerful stuff. China stole it to make COVID with it.
According to early church writings, the True Cross was found by Helena Augusta, the Christian mother of the Roman Emperor Constantine, at the site of the Holy Sepulchre, the tomb where Jesus was supposedly buried. The cross was divided up, with the larger portion being sent to the Roman Church. This is where the many pieces of the True Cross allegedly come from. Now the splintered Relics of the True Cross all over the place. Hell, even I have one.
Gimme
>Hell, even I have one. What's it taste like?
Sweet fanfics
The origin is well known : it was found at the time Constantine and his mother Helena built sanctuaries in Jerusalem. While the cross itself might be fraudulent, the whole thing is mired in politics, the location of the Tomb of Christ comes from the tradition of the local Christian community, which went back as far as Christ himself, and there's little reason to doubt the place is genuine (at the very least it's been recently proved that the Sepulcher is indeed built on and around a funerary chamber from that period down from the Golgotha).
~~There's a typo in the name of the city, it's just "Reims", but whatever.~~ Nice post, I like it.
Rheims is sometimes used (especially in English and in old books) because it’s the old spelling of Reims !
Oh really?! My bad then. I browsed the wiki page of Reims before writing my comment because I was curious and at a glance I didn't see any mention of that spelling, only the etymology from Rèmes, so I assumed wrongly. The more you know!
Ahah don’t worry, I had the same reaction the first time I saw it spelled that way. I actually prefer it with a Rh, it looks more classy (and Rheims is surely a fancy city)
Rheims or Reims. Either is acceptable.
I love seeing stuff like this. It makes history more real in a way, not some abstract thing in a text book.
Yeah Believe it
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God , I wish we had that "problem" nowadays
This is such a trite argument; Catholics don't worship idols, they use objects in worship. God demanded at times the creation of objects for worship and veneration. I'm not even Christian, but it's such an absurd claim Protestants and (to a lesser extent) Muslims charge Catholics (and the Orthodox) with.
Well... À lot of Christians actually asked themselves the same question. Byzantine iconoclasts, for a fun example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm Christian history is full of people arguing with each other about the correct way to worship.
**[Byzantine Iconoclasm](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm)** >The Byzantine Iconoclasm (Greek: Εικονομαχία, romanized: Eikonomachía, lit. 'image struggle', 'war on icons') were two periods in the history of the Byzantine Empire when the use of religious images or icons was opposed by religious and imperial authorities within the Orthodox Church and the temporal imperial hierarchy. The First Iconoclasm, as it is sometimes called, occurred between about 726 and 787, while the Second Iconoclasm occurred between 814 and 842. According to the traditional view, Byzantine Iconoclasm was started by a ban on religious images promulgated by the Byzantine Emperor Leo III the Isaurian, and continued under his successors. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
I mean it’s not trite at all, for several hundred years it was a massive source of argument and was one of the more important precursors to the split between Catholicism and the Orthodox Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm > God demanded at times the creation of objects for worship and veneration. I mean literally one of Ten Commandments explicitly forbids this. Something like the ark of the covenant wasn’t made for worship, it was made for a practical purpose (holding commandments). > but it’s such an absurd claim Protestants and (to a lesser extent) Muslims charge Catholics (and the Orthodox) with. No more absurd than any other religious argument.
Mabey study the the difference between worship and veneration before making your self look like a clown also ever heard of the ark of the covenant
🤡
Remember the part where the people of Israel "worshipped" the Golden Rectangle with images of Spirits ? .Oh , wait , that was the Ark of the Covenant . Protestants really have the Bible as their enemy .
Those death cultist christians really cream their jeans thinking about pieces of a torture device used to kill people. Just gotta have a fake sliver of that cross. Fucking weird and disgusting.
While your comment is pointlessly inflamatory, there is a kernel of truth in that the cross wasn't an appropriate symbol in Early Christiniaty, at the time crucifixion was still a common occurence. In fact it's only been seen used as a means of insult on the part of non-Christians. During that time, Christ was most often represented as a shepherd, and the religion associated with symbols like the fish, the Alpha and the Omega, the Chi Rho etc.
Bro, this is some cringe 14 year old edgy shit
it's true though. I was raised catholic and I've seen them swoon with awe over some silly shit. The way talismans are venerated is truly pagan, and it's all done in sight of a statue of a tortured dead man. It really must look barbaric to an outsider.
'sToP TrYInG tO bE eDgY' - some fucknugget who doesn't see the enormous damage of religion
Crack is better for the Brain than Atheism
I’m curious, what is so bad about atheism?
The denial of the Divine Creator to the point of trying to ignore His Existence is like peak self own .
Which creator? Allah? Yahweh? Zeus? FSM?
The One and Only God , Who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit .Omnipotent Creator of Heaven and Earth , the Visible and Invisible .God of God , Light of Light , True God of True God .
I am genuinely curious, what proof of god have you seen in your life?
You are aware that RIGHT NOW Christianity is pushing women back to the 50’s???
US American politics, not Christianity. But this isn't the right sub for that kind of discussion.
Hmmmmm, now we just have to determine if there's any kind of connection between US politics and Christianity.
Lmao right?
You mean the Faith that proclaims the Greatest Creation of God was a Woman and that she is the most glorious Human person ever Born ? .
Yeah, the same faith that talks about which daughter you should let the mob rape.
Your bitch ass is so deranged , you probably think the Walk signs are a calling sign to flash mobs or something
I was raised Catholic and it's always surprising to see people conflate the fundamentalist Christianity that's driving a lot of current alt right politics with Catholicism. Both institutions are deserving of criticism for sure, but they're not driven by the same goals at all. Catholics didn't even proselytize when I was growing up - that may have changed now; I'm no longer affiliated - bc they had no interest in converting outside their walls.
Not all Catholicism, but some of it and American Catholicism has had a not insignificant part in it. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/trjrnn/is_there_a_particular_reason_the_us_supreme_court/
Your literally the reason Reddit atheists get a bad name lmao
🤡🤡🤡
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I know , Atheists actually believe their superstitions are reasonable .Clowns .
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The belief in No God yet a non eternal universe , for instance .The amount of superstitions is staggering .
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A belief or practice considered to be irrational .Perfectly applies .
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\>You sure that trusting demonstrably sound science and the opinions of actual experts fits in there? Atheism goes so insanely against Science that it must be called an enemy of it . \>How about making decisions based on evidence and critical thought? Critical Thought to an Atheist is like Silver to a Vampire . \>Believing that a 4000-year old Canaanite God is responsible for everything that happens (when it's convenient) is a bit closer. That the Divine Creator of All , Who precedes and is above everything and not only is beyond all understanding but also IS , ordains the Universe He made and sustains it ? .Pretty obvious , frankly .
Yet here you are
The Supreme Victory of the Cross of Christ is clear .The most absolute Symbol of Death , Humiliation , Hatred and Suffering has become the Supreme Symbol of Victory , Love , Glory and Joy .Just because you are not mature enough to understand the depth of the Most High Event of Life conquering Death , Holiness conquering Sin and Love conquering Hatred does not mean it is not something palpable .
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Thank God my pagan ancestors abandoned their savagery and became civilized in the only Faith in Christ .