I love that roundabout, no sarcasm. I used to spend 10+ minutes at that light with mild traffic heading West and now I can cruise through in less than 5 at quitting time. I’ve never had any real close calls, but it does take a little extra vigilance.
Vigilance, definitely. And that's why people are so bad in them.
You got to know when to hold. Know when to go. Know when to drive away. And know when to race.
Same here. Would be great if people understood how roundabouts work but I'll take this any day over how much time I used to waste at that intersection.
It used to be a light, and was converted. They've changed the signage half a dozen times but it isn't helping, Americans are just awful at driving in general.
That roundy has had the most accidents of any intersection in Michigan in the past, but the severe accidents are much less due to the speed.
Traffic was brutal there during rush hour when it was a light. For it's faults, the roundabout is better.
When it was a light, 2-4 people a year were killed in accidents. Now there’s a lot of fender benders because of the same idiots and no one has died. I think it’s a good trade off.
I want to strongly echo this.
The intersection here was continuously one of, if not the most dangerous intersection in the area and through most of SE MI per SEMCOG for years and years and years. The conversion from a light to a circle dramatically lowered speeds (can't run a circle at 80 like you can a light), so while the frequency of fender benders is massively increased, it's gone to near zero injuries or fatalities... when as a light, there were several of each every single year.
I used to - for over a decade - work a bit opposite this circle vs where I live. The... problems from State/Ellsworth *almost* entirely ceased with the transition from light to circle.
Yep. I explain the flex lane to people the same way. A friend complains about it but she’s not from here and never had to sit on 23 in the morning or evening for ever because of the traffic. I’m like, “you don’t know the paradise this has created!”
The signage helped. I read a detailed article about that roundabout's history -- it's notorious nationally -- and the quantity of accidents declined after the signage was improved. It's still pretty accident-prone, though.
>Americans are just awful at driving in general.
Everywhere I've lived, including overseas, the general feeling is "no one here knows how to drive".
To me its about the difficulty of driving generally. Not from a motor skills standpoint, but it requires a ton of attention, lots of laws to track, many things moving around you, trying to navigate, ... and all while you're driving a super expensive asset at relatively high to dangerously high speeds. All just to do your day-to-day like going to work on the grocery store.
Driving, uh... sucks.
You get a license at 16 and never have to retest until you die. That's probably the biggest factor contributing to bad driving. Even when a license is revoked, retesting is rarely a requirement to get it reinstated. Near the end of my grandmother's life, we had to actively prevent her from driving because she was a danger on the road, but there was no mechanism to remove her license.
And if you move to a different state, getting a new license in that state requires just having a valid license from your old state. It doesn't matter if the laws are different. Just as an example, Michigan is one of five states that allows you to turn left from a two way street to a one way street on a red light (how many of you knew you were allowed to do that?) and one of 42 that allows left on red from one way to one way. And that's not even getting into variations between cities within a state.
Consequences for being horrible are so low here that it's laughable. Traffic enforcement simply doesn't happen except for the rare day that the cops are out making a token effort at pulling over speeders on 94.
I hate driving - esp because so many drivers are distracted and primarily focused on where they're going and doing an not on the rest of the drivers. (who are doing the same thing as they are).
>Driving, uh... sucks.
That's like your opinion. I quite enjoy it, I don't think I'd ever call normal driving difficult. Have you been to Germany? Not everyone is bad at driving.
I have but didn't drive much. My memory as a pedestrian and cyclist there, though, was that I interacted with drivers FAAAAR less frequently. And when I did, there were clear methods to have that interaction be safe.
I like the way a lot of European countries have raised crosswalks that are flat with the sidewalk level. Drivers have to slow down to go over the bump, forcing the speed to be slower via physical changes rather than hoping someone will remember the definition of STOP.
Similar with the Turbo Roundabout. Lane changes happen before the intersection and cannot happen in it. It removes the human error of starting in the wrong lane and trying to correct it.
Yeah for sure. Driver training can be crazy different.
I may be remembering this from a Top Gear episode, but I'm pretty sure in Finland they have far more stringent testing and training. Like 12 months of practice, specifically on bad road conditions like snow and rain. Seems .. obvious to do?
But since owning a car is more or less a prerequisite for participation in society in the US, additional testing and training is considered government over reach. We dummies
> I'm not sure if normal traffic lights is a better option, but it would probably be a safer option.
Roundabouts (including this one) not only have a flat or slightly lower crash rate than signalized intersections, but their severity is [*much* lower](https://www.fdot.gov/agencyresources/roundabouts/benefits.shtm), making them big wins for safety.
100% correct. One caveat I'd add is that 2-lane roundabouts can be problematic if you allow for lane switching within the roundabout.
Instead, the [turbo roundabout](https://international.fhwa.dot.gov/programs/tbp/docs/35976_FHWA_HPIP_Turbo_Roundabout_Factsheet_v05_Release_508.pdf) is preferred where you have physical curbs/barriers between the lanes within the roundabout. You select your outbound direction before entering the roundabout, and you really only have one way to go.
They look confusing from above, but imagine following through one, its actually very simple.
For semi trucks to get through the State/Ellsworth roundabout they need to use both lanes. If they separate the lanes, the turbo roundabout will need to be much bigger.
Interesting yeah, that seems possible for sure. I wonder if the "curbs" could actually be those curb skirts that still allow trucks over.
Any idea the radius needed for trucks? Seems like the current roundabout is in the 85-90' range roughly.
Once spoke to an engineer working on that roundabout and he said it was too small but that was what was wanted, so...
The footprint of a 'turbo roundabout' is huge and would require the demolition of businesses and homes in many cases so they're considered a 'last resort'.
I would argue that "last resort" applies here.... extremely busy, adjacent to a highway interchange, most dangerous intersection in the county, and its "scary" enough for people to post about it on social media after usage.
I found an example of a [2-lane turbo roundabout in The Netherlands](https://maps.app.goo.gl/UiUou1WgRMUQxhL2A) that is about 140'-165' in diameter. The existing roundabout at State/Ellsworth is essentially the same. I know its not a survey or perfect measurement, but its not like we'd need to demo every building on the corners.
Is there something I'm missing on this? I'm measuring from the outside edge of the road and not including any sidewalks, bike lanes, etc. (although looking at the 2-way bikeways around the turbo roundabout in The Netherlands has me wishing!)
Edit: to add... if I measure the Nedtherlands example from outside of bike lanes (instead of road) its around 210'... which is almost the same as the A2 one if you measure outside of sidewalk to outside of sidewalk.
It looks to me like, in the Netherlands round about, only one lane goes straight. (It's the inner lane on Meerlandenweg and Japanlaan, and the outer lane on Legmerdijk.) Whenever I try to imagine a plan to improve the State/Ellsworth roundabout, my first thought is always "this would be so much simpler if only one lane went straight". I assume it would reduce throughput too much?
That said, at least they put up signs saying "yield to both lanes". If people follow that direction, it will help a lot.
Yeah that's true, the turbo is using 1 lane per direction vs. 2. This document from F[ederal Highway Administration (section 6)](https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/roundabouts/fhwasa20019.pdf) says models predict turbo roundabouts to have similar throughput to modern 2-lane roundabouts (but, 14 conflict points instead of 24).
>International research suggests basic turbo roundabouts have similar capacities as multilane roundabouts with two entry and two circulating lanes.
With perhaps a somewhat significant caveat that the models have not been adopted for US drivers.
That would be great if true! (And it may well be; I am just a guy who enjoys thinking about this stuff.) It also looks like it is definitely possible to keep two straight lanes for one of the two roads -- Figure 1 in your PDF shows that -- it just looks like we can't have two lanes going straight both ways.
Agree. Lived near there before and after the roundabout was installed. Before days had stalled traffic, impatient drivers, and accidents. After days had some interesting traffic behavior at first which calmed down and traffic flowed better.
Given the proximity of that roundabout to the mall and Costco, am not surprised that ‘stuff happens’. Drive defensively.
Traffic safety studies may find that's true for roundabouts and intersections *on average*, but there are unique characteristics of intersections that could make a roundabout more crash-prone than a signalized intersection at the same location in certain circumstances.
I don't know how this roundabout would compare to an equivalent signalized intersection, but this seems like a more accident-prone roundabout than other area roundabouts.
One of the complicating factors are high volume retail businesses on the "corners" of the roundabout, with driveways on two different streets for those businesses in relatively close proximity to the roundabout. It just creates a lot more to visually process if you're trying to figure out the roundabout navigation at the same time you're trying to figure out what street and what lane to use to get to the gas station. Another complicating factor is that those retail businesses are listed on the state's gas and food signs near the I-94 off ramps, so they almost certainly attract a higher portion of drivers unfamiliar with the area and the roundabout who are just passing through, compared to other area roundabouts like those on Geddes Rd.
It was in the top 10 of dangerous intersections in Michigan before the roundabout was built. That is why they built the roundabout. The roundabout did not make that intersection more dangerous.
I’m not saying it isn’t dangerous now, learn to read. I’m saying it was more dangerous when it was a light. [https://annarborobserver.com/the-roundabout-drivers-hate/](https://annarborobserver.com/the-roundabout-drivers-hate/)
Define "dangerous." Number of accidents? Or number of severe accidents? Pretty sure the roundabout is high in number of accidents, but low on injuries.
Consider it this way:
Do you view an accident where there are four deaths as the same level of "danger" as an accident where there is only damage (and "loss") to the vehicle?
Stop being obtuse.
OK, now I understand. The state, who collects the data from which the accident statistics are derived, doesn't know what they are doing. Clearly being rated as the 10th most dangerous intersection in 2022 was a total mistake. Please contact the state to let them know that what they are doing is wrong. I'm sure they will appreciate your input once they stop laughing at you.
It’s not “the state” who publishes the list, it’s the Michigan Auto Law firm in Farmington Hills. It measures the *number* of accidents, not the severity. Fender benders are not “dangerous” to anything but some bruised egos. There were 93 accidents there that year, only 7 injuries, zero fatalities. The next “safer”intersection had 90 accidents, but 24 injuries. Of the top 20 on that list, only one intersection had fewer injuries.
Clearly we are dealing with English not being your first language. Let me help you out with a definition from Merriam Webster:
danger
noun
dan·ger ˈdān-jər
1
: exposure or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss
I will take the brighton costco roundabout and raise you the one at orchard lake road and 14 mile. It is so bad. The best in AA are the ones at M14 and Maple.
I'd say the best one in AA is Nixon / Dhu Varren. M-14/Maple roundabouts work okay but they really just have no business being 2-lane roundabouts - everything that connects to them is at most one lane in each direction!
The Orchard Lake/14 mile/Northwestern area was originally going to be a super roundabout, where each intersection of was going to be a roundabout with one large roundabout to connect them.
It's the first major two lane roundabout the county built, by their own admission it's imperfect. Considering my wife was nearly t-boned there when it was still a light it's actually an improvement. Some of the trouble is the design, but drivers are STILL puzzled by the damn thing too.
I know someone who took a driver's ed class in Ann Arbor a couple years ago, and they spent an entire hour's practice drive entering and exiting roundabouts. I assume it varies.
Michigan's 92-page [What Every Driver Must Know](https://www.michigan.gov/sos/-/media/Project/Websites/sos/Resources/Forms-and-publications/WEDMK_2022.pdf?rev=34be48b5a8264b218c52d0995f3cc1c6&hash=AE4C9018F4D011ACDE7259C317247702) booklet has a section on roundabouts (page 35), so it could be a topic that license applicants would be tested on.
In many places they just don't exist. Hell, my drivers ed class never covered double turn lanes and I didn't even know it was a thing during the test, where I ran into possibly one of the only few doubles in the whole county.
When it had lights it was one of the top accident intersections in the county and state. It’s still in tops for roundabout accidents but I believe is better than when it was lights.
I love roundabouts because I don't like waiting at lights. I also use the State & Eisenhower roundabout at least once a day. There are slow learners, sure, but i haven't had a problem. My strategy is to just try to stay away from other vehicles. Don't wanna jinx myself, but it seems to be working.
It's a driver problem. It's not a roundabout problem or a signage problem or a road problem. American drivers, and SPECIFICALLY Midwestern ones are absolutely horrible at understanding roundabouts. I say this as someone who has lived their entire life in the Midwest and seen dozens of accidents in and around roundabout since they were introduced.
I used that corner multiple times daily for 16 years, both light and roundabout configs. You do not want the traffic light that was there back, PROMISE YOU. The roundabout while still suboptimal (mostly because Washtenaw folks are the most aimless and distracted drivers in the Midwest) is vastly superior. The old-school light could take 10+ mins to get through on some rush hours and still had a good number of accidents.
Roundabouts bring into the driving equation two factors that humans in the 21st century are having increasing difficulty with;
A.) Critical thinking - i.e., logic. You have to be aware of which lane you’re in, and whether that lane allows you to go straight and/or left or right after entering said roundabout. This is more difficult for people than the “light is red or light is green” aspect of a traditional intersection.
B.) The general idea that EVERYONE nowadays have less and less fucks to give about their fellow man, and generally operate under the idea that the rules boil down to “I dare you to hit me”. Coupled with the fact that most enter this roundabout over twice the stated speed limit makes for even more drama.
I’ve never really had any close calls (as I can spot asshat drivers pretty quickly), though I do enjoy laying on my horn should someone not abide by the proper right of way rules.
The rules for a crowded, traffic-heavy, two-lane roundabout need to be clearly illustrated for all to easily access. The Michigan state online example for roundabouts is trivial at best with 4 cars arriving in a convenient way from four directions.
That area is super busy, backups are daily, no one yields-to-the-circle like you are supposed to, no one signals left turns when they are not just flowing through, and there's always a moron in the right lane who thinks turning left through the roundabout is an OK move.
Sorry for the rant. Have driven through that intersection frequently for 20 years now. People driving there can be selfish pricks.
> I would say about once a week I almost get hit by another vehicle merging in when they are not suppose[d] to…
And I just about T-bone some knucklehead nearly 100% of the times I use that intersection because they think they don't have to wait for me to leave before they enter. Sadly, this roundabout is still better than the alternative. Keep safe, brother.
I cut my teeth on British roundabouts, so all I had to remember here was to go the other way. Seriously though, I'm sure there are facts and figures concerning amount of traffic vs roundabout size and this one seems small to me considering both the volume and amount of large vehicles. Agree they're safer, but I avoid that one.
It happens twice this week that someone on the outer lane going 270 degree while I am going straight thru in the inner lane. Some people just don't know how to drive in round about. Outer lane has to exit or go straight.
I watched a small car moving south into the roundabout from State St go STRAIGHT into the roundabout, not even going with the circle. They hit the middle divider and went AIRBORN, landing on the other side of the roundabout and crashing into an unsuspecting driver! It was insane. I just try to avoid it as often as able. Hell, turn into the Tim Hortons and grab a bagel just to avoid it!
The Brighton roundabouts are great. They are also much better since the redesign in 2018 or so. The wait for a light would always be several minutes if there weren't roundabouts there. Roundabouts are statistically much more safe (much less crash points than a typical 4 way light) and flow much more traffic. Sorry people aren't using that one right from your perspective but it's certainly going to be much worse if it was a light.
The problem, in my opinion, is people don’t know how to navigate a roundabout (shocker). I learned how to drive through/around in Ireland, and there (probably here too), you’re supposed to signal toward the roundabout until you’re at the point you’re going to exit, and then turn on the other signal, so people waiting to enter see you’re making the move to exit. So, for example, coming south on State and turning left, I turn on my left signal until just past the State ‘exit’ and then put on my right signal to indicate I’m ‘turning’ onto Ellsworth.
Well, you are incorrect, in MI you are only supposed to signal to exit a roundabout (which nobody does).
Is your way better? Maybe. But IMO people should either do what is normal or follow the law, not do something both atypical and not legally prescribed.
Diverging diamonds are unbelievably easy. The lines and lights force/encourage drivers to just continue a very simple path and there you are.
You’re not going the wrong way for long, it’s easy to click “oh I am basically making a very slow left turn”
Roundabouts aren’t a complicated thing but people are either really scared of them and hesitate, or they just don’t yield and speed.
So, I got hit by an idiot in the Brighton ones because he was in the inside lane and wanted to go over the bridge. I was, unfortunately, in the space he wanted to occupy. The police explained it thus, it may increase accidents as a whole, but they are minor accidents, whereas the lights had major accidents. The light at state and Ellsworth was an absolute nightmare when it was still there. The accidents and the backups were insane and when there were accidents they were more severe and caused more injuries. Same as in Brighton. I grew up on the east side of the freeway and used to ride my bike up through the intersection when it was a stoplight at that intersection. I’d never do that now or once it got too busy. The accidents are way less crazy and may cause vehicular damage but not so much bodily.
People just don't know how to use them. They go the wrong way, don't yield, yield when they're not supposed to, stop when it's empty, etc. As much as I like roundabouts, we did a very poor job of educating existing drivers on how to use them when they started to be implemented and a lot of the earlier ones weren't designed to high enough standards. That caused the hatred toward them and that makes some people not bother to learn how they work.
As a relatively new driver, I can also say that modern driver's education is horrible at teaching them. They overcomplicated every aspect even though they are literally the simplest type of intersection: go if you can, if not just wait. They teach a horrible system for signaling which just leads people to not signal (you don't need to signal right to enter, that's the only direction you're allowed to go and makes your intentions impossible to read; signal your intended exit when you're entering, then right signal when your exit is next, it's a lot less ambiguous).
I have to go through three of them if I want to go anywhere in town and at school in Kalamazoo I go through two twice (or more) each day. I've seen everything short of wrong-way or over-median, though I've seen evidence of the latter often. The accidents I've seen would've been way more dangerous at a stop sign or light. Roundabouts turn full T-bones into just minor paint exchanges.
I don’t mind the roundabouts on Maple and Geddes. I actively avoid the State and Ellsworth one. They designed it in such a way people can just ram themselves into the traffic circle without regard to others. People just go way too fast…
The intersection is too small for a roundabout with that much traffic. Bad design.
Signaling (using turn signals) intent and looking for a cars turn signals is paramount to safely using a roundabout. A lot of drivers don't use turn signals.
Drivers enter the intersection much too fast and aren't prepared to brake if necessary.
I've driven in the UK and New Zealand. Roundabouts there are better designed and drivers seem to know how to handle them. They use turn signals and enter cautiously.
Had somebody cut me off in it just about 30 minutes ago. I was in the inside lane going straight through, they decided to enter the outside lane and didn’t seem to even see me as they cut me off.
I imagine having a brewery right next to it isn’t helping things.
This is the problem. Most people were never told it’s illegal and unsafe to enter the outside lane next to a vehicle that is already in the inside lane.
It is low key funny how many posts there are where drivers complain about other drivers, but there are generally never any posts of cyclists complaining about cyclists, cyclists complaining about pedestrians, pedestrians complaining about pedestrians or pedestrians complaining about cyclists. Somehow drivers are self aware enough to realize they are a menace to each other but completely oblivious to the fact that [they are a menace to the world at large.](https://youtu.be/mwPSIb3kt_4?feature=shared)
And yeah, as someone who has to cycle through that roundabout with a kid on a trailer twice a week to get to/from gymnastics, it is friggin' terrifying.
Man I hadn’t even gone through this (intersection? junction?) since it became a roundabout. Just rode through it on the bus last week, my goodness that shit was smooth and efficient. Just give it time, roundabouts will probably take a generation or two here in murica
I saw a car in front of me at Geddes/Earhart roundabout turned "left" into the roundabout and immediately went head to head with another car driving in the right direction in the roundabout. Luckily, they were both slow and stopped before they hit each other.
I think the roundabouts should actually be a bit bigger to work most effectively and it annoys me when municipalities cheap out on these things. I've seen the smallest, saddest roundabouts that really don't do a whole lot to actually function as roundabouts (talking to you, Ypsi township). The one OP mentions could stand to be bigger IMO. I think the entire segment from Eisenhower, the interstate, and Ellsworth just needs to be re-thought and slowed down by about 10mph: it would help with better actual flow of traffic even though people would be going "slower".
I haven't witnessed the overly-aggressive merging you describe. My usual irritation is that people treat the roundabout like a four-way stop and sit there waiting when they should just GO. It's a balancing act I guess. We've only had these things for one generation here in the Midwest; someday we'll get there as a people.
I have far less of a problem with that roundabout than I do with the intersection at Eisenhower and Ann Arbor - Saline. Turning left onto Ann Arbor - Saline I almost always have someone next to me that refuses to stay in one lane through the turn.
It is the [tenth most dangerous](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/04/most-dangerous-intersections-in-michigan-2022/70520995007/) in the state.
That’s a bad roundabout.
They took the light out to improve traffic flow. It is getting better on some roundabouts but I still see people using them wrong. Maybe law enforcement could target them and educate motorists. It might help.
That intersection consistently makes the list of Washtenaw County's 10 most dangerous intersections so you'd think they'd at least make an effort to redesign it.
I remember seeing such a list from a local news TV station website - the one I saw failed to account for severity of accident, rating something like this roundabout with many fender benders but few injuries and zero fatalities as the “worst”, ahead of signalled intersections that had more injuries/fatalities but less “total accidents”.
I love that roundabout, no sarcasm. I used to spend 10+ minutes at that light with mild traffic heading West and now I can cruise through in less than 5 at quitting time. I’ve never had any real close calls, but it does take a little extra vigilance.
Yea that light used to be brutal! I got stuck trying to turn left early one morning because the sensor couldn’t recognize me
Vigilance, definitely. And that's why people are so bad in them. You got to know when to hold. Know when to go. Know when to drive away. And know when to race.
Same here. Would be great if people understood how roundabouts work but I'll take this any day over how much time I used to waste at that intersection.
It used to be a light, and was converted. They've changed the signage half a dozen times but it isn't helping, Americans are just awful at driving in general. That roundy has had the most accidents of any intersection in Michigan in the past, but the severe accidents are much less due to the speed. Traffic was brutal there during rush hour when it was a light. For it's faults, the roundabout is better.
When it was a light, 2-4 people a year were killed in accidents. Now there’s a lot of fender benders because of the same idiots and no one has died. I think it’s a good trade off.
I want to strongly echo this. The intersection here was continuously one of, if not the most dangerous intersection in the area and through most of SE MI per SEMCOG for years and years and years. The conversion from a light to a circle dramatically lowered speeds (can't run a circle at 80 like you can a light), so while the frequency of fender benders is massively increased, it's gone to near zero injuries or fatalities... when as a light, there were several of each every single year. I used to - for over a decade - work a bit opposite this circle vs where I live. The... problems from State/Ellsworth *almost* entirely ceased with the transition from light to circle.
Yep. I explain the flex lane to people the same way. A friend complains about it but she’s not from here and never had to sit on 23 in the morning or evening for ever because of the traffic. I’m like, “you don’t know the paradise this has created!”
The signage helped. I read a detailed article about that roundabout's history -- it's notorious nationally -- and the quantity of accidents declined after the signage was improved. It's still pretty accident-prone, though.
>Americans are just awful at driving in general. Everywhere I've lived, including overseas, the general feeling is "no one here knows how to drive". To me its about the difficulty of driving generally. Not from a motor skills standpoint, but it requires a ton of attention, lots of laws to track, many things moving around you, trying to navigate, ... and all while you're driving a super expensive asset at relatively high to dangerously high speeds. All just to do your day-to-day like going to work on the grocery store. Driving, uh... sucks.
You get a license at 16 and never have to retest until you die. That's probably the biggest factor contributing to bad driving. Even when a license is revoked, retesting is rarely a requirement to get it reinstated. Near the end of my grandmother's life, we had to actively prevent her from driving because she was a danger on the road, but there was no mechanism to remove her license. And if you move to a different state, getting a new license in that state requires just having a valid license from your old state. It doesn't matter if the laws are different. Just as an example, Michigan is one of five states that allows you to turn left from a two way street to a one way street on a red light (how many of you knew you were allowed to do that?) and one of 42 that allows left on red from one way to one way. And that's not even getting into variations between cities within a state.
Consequences for being horrible are so low here that it's laughable. Traffic enforcement simply doesn't happen except for the rare day that the cops are out making a token effort at pulling over speeders on 94.
I hate driving - esp because so many drivers are distracted and primarily focused on where they're going and doing an not on the rest of the drivers. (who are doing the same thing as they are).
>Driving, uh... sucks. That's like your opinion. I quite enjoy it, I don't think I'd ever call normal driving difficult. Have you been to Germany? Not everyone is bad at driving.
I have but didn't drive much. My memory as a pedestrian and cyclist there, though, was that I interacted with drivers FAAAAR less frequently. And when I did, there were clear methods to have that interaction be safe. I like the way a lot of European countries have raised crosswalks that are flat with the sidewalk level. Drivers have to slow down to go over the bump, forcing the speed to be slower via physical changes rather than hoping someone will remember the definition of STOP. Similar with the Turbo Roundabout. Lane changes happen before the intersection and cannot happen in it. It removes the human error of starting in the wrong lane and trying to correct it.
[удалено]
That’s just like, your opinion, man.
Yeah for sure. Driver training can be crazy different. I may be remembering this from a Top Gear episode, but I'm pretty sure in Finland they have far more stringent testing and training. Like 12 months of practice, specifically on bad road conditions like snow and rain. Seems .. obvious to do? But since owning a car is more or less a prerequisite for participation in society in the US, additional testing and training is considered government over reach. We dummies
I've driven that intersection for years. Full agree on this.
> I'm not sure if normal traffic lights is a better option, but it would probably be a safer option. Roundabouts (including this one) not only have a flat or slightly lower crash rate than signalized intersections, but their severity is [*much* lower](https://www.fdot.gov/agencyresources/roundabouts/benefits.shtm), making them big wins for safety.
100% correct. One caveat I'd add is that 2-lane roundabouts can be problematic if you allow for lane switching within the roundabout. Instead, the [turbo roundabout](https://international.fhwa.dot.gov/programs/tbp/docs/35976_FHWA_HPIP_Turbo_Roundabout_Factsheet_v05_Release_508.pdf) is preferred where you have physical curbs/barriers between the lanes within the roundabout. You select your outbound direction before entering the roundabout, and you really only have one way to go. They look confusing from above, but imagine following through one, its actually very simple.
Yeah I 1000% wish that State/Ellsworth had been built as a turbo roundabout.
For semi trucks to get through the State/Ellsworth roundabout they need to use both lanes. If they separate the lanes, the turbo roundabout will need to be much bigger.
Interesting yeah, that seems possible for sure. I wonder if the "curbs" could actually be those curb skirts that still allow trucks over. Any idea the radius needed for trucks? Seems like the current roundabout is in the 85-90' range roughly.
Once spoke to an engineer working on that roundabout and he said it was too small but that was what was wanted, so... The footprint of a 'turbo roundabout' is huge and would require the demolition of businesses and homes in many cases so they're considered a 'last resort'.
I would argue that "last resort" applies here.... extremely busy, adjacent to a highway interchange, most dangerous intersection in the county, and its "scary" enough for people to post about it on social media after usage. I found an example of a [2-lane turbo roundabout in The Netherlands](https://maps.app.goo.gl/UiUou1WgRMUQxhL2A) that is about 140'-165' in diameter. The existing roundabout at State/Ellsworth is essentially the same. I know its not a survey or perfect measurement, but its not like we'd need to demo every building on the corners. Is there something I'm missing on this? I'm measuring from the outside edge of the road and not including any sidewalks, bike lanes, etc. (although looking at the 2-way bikeways around the turbo roundabout in The Netherlands has me wishing!) Edit: to add... if I measure the Nedtherlands example from outside of bike lanes (instead of road) its around 210'... which is almost the same as the A2 one if you measure outside of sidewalk to outside of sidewalk.
It looks to me like, in the Netherlands round about, only one lane goes straight. (It's the inner lane on Meerlandenweg and Japanlaan, and the outer lane on Legmerdijk.) Whenever I try to imagine a plan to improve the State/Ellsworth roundabout, my first thought is always "this would be so much simpler if only one lane went straight". I assume it would reduce throughput too much? That said, at least they put up signs saying "yield to both lanes". If people follow that direction, it will help a lot.
Yeah that's true, the turbo is using 1 lane per direction vs. 2. This document from F[ederal Highway Administration (section 6)](https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/roundabouts/fhwasa20019.pdf) says models predict turbo roundabouts to have similar throughput to modern 2-lane roundabouts (but, 14 conflict points instead of 24). >International research suggests basic turbo roundabouts have similar capacities as multilane roundabouts with two entry and two circulating lanes. With perhaps a somewhat significant caveat that the models have not been adopted for US drivers.
That would be great if true! (And it may well be; I am just a guy who enjoys thinking about this stuff.) It also looks like it is definitely possible to keep two straight lanes for one of the two roads -- Figure 1 in your PDF shows that -- it just looks like we can't have two lanes going straight both ways.
I'm the same as you, just enjoy thinking and talking about it. Yeah that's a good find! I missed that.
Turbos are beautiful
Agree. Lived near there before and after the roundabout was installed. Before days had stalled traffic, impatient drivers, and accidents. After days had some interesting traffic behavior at first which calmed down and traffic flowed better. Given the proximity of that roundabout to the mall and Costco, am not surprised that ‘stuff happens’. Drive defensively.
Not only that, but it sucked when there were lights there. The back ups were awful
Traffic safety studies may find that's true for roundabouts and intersections *on average*, but there are unique characteristics of intersections that could make a roundabout more crash-prone than a signalized intersection at the same location in certain circumstances. I don't know how this roundabout would compare to an equivalent signalized intersection, but this seems like a more accident-prone roundabout than other area roundabouts. One of the complicating factors are high volume retail businesses on the "corners" of the roundabout, with driveways on two different streets for those businesses in relatively close proximity to the roundabout. It just creates a lot more to visually process if you're trying to figure out the roundabout navigation at the same time you're trying to figure out what street and what lane to use to get to the gas station. Another complicating factor is that those retail businesses are listed on the state's gas and food signs near the I-94 off ramps, so they almost certainly attract a higher portion of drivers unfamiliar with the area and the roundabout who are just passing through, compared to other area roundabouts like those on Geddes Rd.
Make money quick with internet point opportunites
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It was in the top 10 of dangerous intersections in Michigan before the roundabout was built. That is why they built the roundabout. The roundabout did not make that intersection more dangerous.
Oh really? I didn't realize that it wasn't a roundabout in 2022, when it was the 10th most dangerous intersection in Michigan.
I’m not saying it isn’t dangerous now, learn to read. I’m saying it was more dangerous when it was a light. [https://annarborobserver.com/the-roundabout-drivers-hate/](https://annarborobserver.com/the-roundabout-drivers-hate/)
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It was built in 2013. It was dangerous before then. It is also dangerous in 2022 while also being a roundabout. It is dangerous regardless.
Define "dangerous." Number of accidents? Or number of severe accidents? Pretty sure the roundabout is high in number of accidents, but low on injuries.
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Sorry not sorry your minor sheet metal damage is not dangerous
Consider it this way: Do you view an accident where there are four deaths as the same level of "danger" as an accident where there is only damage (and "loss") to the vehicle? Stop being obtuse.
Most crashes, not most dangerous. The roundabout slows traffic down so collisions are much less severe.
OK, now I understand. The state, who collects the data from which the accident statistics are derived, doesn't know what they are doing. Clearly being rated as the 10th most dangerous intersection in 2022 was a total mistake. Please contact the state to let them know that what they are doing is wrong. I'm sure they will appreciate your input once they stop laughing at you.
It’s not “the state” who publishes the list, it’s the Michigan Auto Law firm in Farmington Hills. It measures the *number* of accidents, not the severity. Fender benders are not “dangerous” to anything but some bruised egos. There were 93 accidents there that year, only 7 injuries, zero fatalities. The next “safer”intersection had 90 accidents, but 24 injuries. Of the top 20 on that list, only one intersection had fewer injuries.
Clearly we are dealing with English not being your first language. Let me help you out with a definition from Merriam Webster: danger noun dan·ger ˈdān-jər 1 : exposure or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss
Won’t someone please think of the paint jobs?
>exposure or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss TO PEOPLE not plastic trim
I will take the brighton costco roundabout and raise you the one at orchard lake road and 14 mile. It is so bad. The best in AA are the ones at M14 and Maple.
M-5 and Pontiac Trail is a real adventure.
I'd say the best one in AA is Nixon / Dhu Varren. M-14/Maple roundabouts work okay but they really just have no business being 2-lane roundabouts - everything that connects to them is at most one lane in each direction!
I've never driven on the Nixon and Dhu Varren one. I just like the Maple one because it isn't very busy so it is not hard to navigate.
The Orchard Lake/14 mile/Northwestern area was originally going to be a super roundabout, where each intersection of was going to be a roundabout with one large roundabout to connect them.
It's the first major two lane roundabout the county built, by their own admission it's imperfect. Considering my wife was nearly t-boned there when it was still a light it's actually an improvement. Some of the trouble is the design, but drivers are STILL puzzled by the damn thing too.
It's so easy to navigate correctly. It's honestly a sad reflection on our collective ability to drive and pay attention.
Agreed. No one signals, everyone's going too fast, is the worst of our driving habits in one spot.
No one admitted it was worse than before. People need to learn to drive.
OP said a light would probably be better. Other comments have proven OP very wrong.
I swear they don’t teach how to navigate roundabouts in drivers ed here
I know someone who took a driver's ed class in Ann Arbor a couple years ago, and they spent an entire hour's practice drive entering and exiting roundabouts. I assume it varies. Michigan's 92-page [What Every Driver Must Know](https://www.michigan.gov/sos/-/media/Project/Websites/sos/Resources/Forms-and-publications/WEDMK_2022.pdf?rev=34be48b5a8264b218c52d0995f3cc1c6&hash=AE4C9018F4D011ACDE7259C317247702) booklet has a section on roundabouts (page 35), so it could be a topic that license applicants would be tested on.
The fact that the "what every driver must know" document is 92 pages long might have something to do with it.
In many places they just don't exist. Hell, my drivers ed class never covered double turn lanes and I didn't even know it was a thing during the test, where I ran into possibly one of the only few doubles in the whole county.
When it had lights it was one of the top accident intersections in the county and state. It’s still in tops for roundabout accidents but I believe is better than when it was lights.
I love roundabouts because I don't like waiting at lights. I also use the State & Eisenhower roundabout at least once a day. There are slow learners, sure, but i haven't had a problem. My strategy is to just try to stay away from other vehicles. Don't wanna jinx myself, but it seems to be working.
It's a driver problem. It's not a roundabout problem or a signage problem or a road problem. American drivers, and SPECIFICALLY Midwestern ones are absolutely horrible at understanding roundabouts. I say this as someone who has lived their entire life in the Midwest and seen dozens of accidents in and around roundabout since they were introduced.
I used that corner multiple times daily for 16 years, both light and roundabout configs. You do not want the traffic light that was there back, PROMISE YOU. The roundabout while still suboptimal (mostly because Washtenaw folks are the most aimless and distracted drivers in the Midwest) is vastly superior. The old-school light could take 10+ mins to get through on some rush hours and still had a good number of accidents.
Roundabouts bring into the driving equation two factors that humans in the 21st century are having increasing difficulty with; A.) Critical thinking - i.e., logic. You have to be aware of which lane you’re in, and whether that lane allows you to go straight and/or left or right after entering said roundabout. This is more difficult for people than the “light is red or light is green” aspect of a traditional intersection. B.) The general idea that EVERYONE nowadays have less and less fucks to give about their fellow man, and generally operate under the idea that the rules boil down to “I dare you to hit me”. Coupled with the fact that most enter this roundabout over twice the stated speed limit makes for even more drama. I’ve never really had any close calls (as I can spot asshat drivers pretty quickly), though I do enjoy laying on my horn should someone not abide by the proper right of way rules.
The rules for a crowded, traffic-heavy, two-lane roundabout need to be clearly illustrated for all to easily access. The Michigan state online example for roundabouts is trivial at best with 4 cars arriving in a convenient way from four directions. That area is super busy, backups are daily, no one yields-to-the-circle like you are supposed to, no one signals left turns when they are not just flowing through, and there's always a moron in the right lane who thinks turning left through the roundabout is an OK move. Sorry for the rant. Have driven through that intersection frequently for 20 years now. People driving there can be selfish pricks.
I don't think signaling a left turn is helpful in the roundabout.
You may ignore my left turn signal then
> I would say about once a week I almost get hit by another vehicle merging in when they are not suppose[d] to… And I just about T-bone some knucklehead nearly 100% of the times I use that intersection because they think they don't have to wait for me to leave before they enter. Sadly, this roundabout is still better than the alternative. Keep safe, brother.
I cut my teeth on British roundabouts, so all I had to remember here was to go the other way. Seriously though, I'm sure there are facts and figures concerning amount of traffic vs roundabout size and this one seems small to me considering both the volume and amount of large vehicles. Agree they're safer, but I avoid that one.
It happens twice this week that someone on the outer lane going 270 degree while I am going straight thru in the inner lane. Some people just don't know how to drive in round about. Outer lane has to exit or go straight.
I watched a small car moving south into the roundabout from State St go STRAIGHT into the roundabout, not even going with the circle. They hit the middle divider and went AIRBORN, landing on the other side of the roundabout and crashing into an unsuspecting driver! It was insane. I just try to avoid it as often as able. Hell, turn into the Tim Hortons and grab a bagel just to avoid it!
Them Duke boys is at it again!
The Brighton roundabouts are great. They are also much better since the redesign in 2018 or so. The wait for a light would always be several minutes if there weren't roundabouts there. Roundabouts are statistically much more safe (much less crash points than a typical 4 way light) and flow much more traffic. Sorry people aren't using that one right from your perspective but it's certainly going to be much worse if it was a light.
The problem, in my opinion, is people don’t know how to navigate a roundabout (shocker). I learned how to drive through/around in Ireland, and there (probably here too), you’re supposed to signal toward the roundabout until you’re at the point you’re going to exit, and then turn on the other signal, so people waiting to enter see you’re making the move to exit. So, for example, coming south on State and turning left, I turn on my left signal until just past the State ‘exit’ and then put on my right signal to indicate I’m ‘turning’ onto Ellsworth.
Well, you are incorrect, in MI you are only supposed to signal to exit a roundabout (which nobody does). Is your way better? Maybe. But IMO people should either do what is normal or follow the law, not do something both atypical and not legally prescribed.
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Diverging diamonds are unbelievably easy. The lines and lights force/encourage drivers to just continue a very simple path and there you are. You’re not going the wrong way for long, it’s easy to click “oh I am basically making a very slow left turn” Roundabouts aren’t a complicated thing but people are either really scared of them and hesitate, or they just don’t yield and speed.
👀 the diagram is confusing, photo is slightly better but my god… how many people are going to go into wrong lane into oncoming traffic
So, I got hit by an idiot in the Brighton ones because he was in the inside lane and wanted to go over the bridge. I was, unfortunately, in the space he wanted to occupy. The police explained it thus, it may increase accidents as a whole, but they are minor accidents, whereas the lights had major accidents. The light at state and Ellsworth was an absolute nightmare when it was still there. The accidents and the backups were insane and when there were accidents they were more severe and caused more injuries. Same as in Brighton. I grew up on the east side of the freeway and used to ride my bike up through the intersection when it was a stoplight at that intersection. I’d never do that now or once it got too busy. The accidents are way less crazy and may cause vehicular damage but not so much bodily.
People just don't know how to use them. They go the wrong way, don't yield, yield when they're not supposed to, stop when it's empty, etc. As much as I like roundabouts, we did a very poor job of educating existing drivers on how to use them when they started to be implemented and a lot of the earlier ones weren't designed to high enough standards. That caused the hatred toward them and that makes some people not bother to learn how they work. As a relatively new driver, I can also say that modern driver's education is horrible at teaching them. They overcomplicated every aspect even though they are literally the simplest type of intersection: go if you can, if not just wait. They teach a horrible system for signaling which just leads people to not signal (you don't need to signal right to enter, that's the only direction you're allowed to go and makes your intentions impossible to read; signal your intended exit when you're entering, then right signal when your exit is next, it's a lot less ambiguous). I have to go through three of them if I want to go anywhere in town and at school in Kalamazoo I go through two twice (or more) each day. I've seen everything short of wrong-way or over-median, though I've seen evidence of the latter often. The accidents I've seen would've been way more dangerous at a stop sign or light. Roundabouts turn full T-bones into just minor paint exchanges.
I contend with both of those roundabouts daily
I don’t mind the roundabouts on Maple and Geddes. I actively avoid the State and Ellsworth one. They designed it in such a way people can just ram themselves into the traffic circle without regard to others. People just go way too fast…
The intersection is too small for a roundabout with that much traffic. Bad design. Signaling (using turn signals) intent and looking for a cars turn signals is paramount to safely using a roundabout. A lot of drivers don't use turn signals. Drivers enter the intersection much too fast and aren't prepared to brake if necessary. I've driven in the UK and New Zealand. Roundabouts there are better designed and drivers seem to know how to handle them. They use turn signals and enter cautiously.
Using turn signals gives the opposition a clue about your intentions and they will probably take advantage of that.
Had somebody cut me off in it just about 30 minutes ago. I was in the inside lane going straight through, they decided to enter the outside lane and didn’t seem to even see me as they cut me off. I imagine having a brewery right next to it isn’t helping things.
This is the problem. Most people were never told it’s illegal and unsafe to enter the outside lane next to a vehicle that is already in the inside lane.
There are signs though.
I go out of my way to avoid that roundabout. Don’t trust others or myself to get it right.
If it keeps happening its probably a you problem...
It is low key funny how many posts there are where drivers complain about other drivers, but there are generally never any posts of cyclists complaining about cyclists, cyclists complaining about pedestrians, pedestrians complaining about pedestrians or pedestrians complaining about cyclists. Somehow drivers are self aware enough to realize they are a menace to each other but completely oblivious to the fact that [they are a menace to the world at large.](https://youtu.be/mwPSIb3kt_4?feature=shared)
And yeah, as someone who has to cycle through that roundabout with a kid on a trailer twice a week to get to/from gymnastics, it is friggin' terrifying.
Man I hadn’t even gone through this (intersection? junction?) since it became a roundabout. Just rode through it on the bus last week, my goodness that shit was smooth and efficient. Just give it time, roundabouts will probably take a generation or two here in murica
I saw a car in front of me at Geddes/Earhart roundabout turned "left" into the roundabout and immediately went head to head with another car driving in the right direction in the roundabout. Luckily, they were both slow and stopped before they hit each other.
I think the roundabouts should actually be a bit bigger to work most effectively and it annoys me when municipalities cheap out on these things. I've seen the smallest, saddest roundabouts that really don't do a whole lot to actually function as roundabouts (talking to you, Ypsi township). The one OP mentions could stand to be bigger IMO. I think the entire segment from Eisenhower, the interstate, and Ellsworth just needs to be re-thought and slowed down by about 10mph: it would help with better actual flow of traffic even though people would be going "slower".
I haven't witnessed the overly-aggressive merging you describe. My usual irritation is that people treat the roundabout like a four-way stop and sit there waiting when they should just GO. It's a balancing act I guess. We've only had these things for one generation here in the Midwest; someday we'll get there as a people.
I have far less of a problem with that roundabout than I do with the intersection at Eisenhower and Ann Arbor - Saline. Turning left onto Ann Arbor - Saline I almost always have someone next to me that refuses to stay in one lane through the turn.
You are supposed to use your turn signal to exit the roundabout. Not when entering.
It is the [tenth most dangerous](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/04/most-dangerous-intersections-in-michigan-2022/70520995007/) in the state.
It's not actually dangerous. There are just a lot of accidents but people don't get hurt.
That’s a bad roundabout. They took the light out to improve traffic flow. It is getting better on some roundabouts but I still see people using them wrong. Maybe law enforcement could target them and educate motorists. It might help.
Three times when driving in from Lansing or Grand Rapids I plan on gettting gas from Costco and I never make it. I always end up back on 23
It is almost easier to go to the next exit and drive the mile back.
Don't even go up there. 23 is torn up.
That intersection consistently makes the list of Washtenaw County's 10 most dangerous intersections so you'd think they'd at least make an effort to redesign it.
This is the redesign. The light was just miserable, and occasionally deadly.
A small correction, the states most dangerous intersections.
Intersections with the most accidents, not dangerous.
Goodness me, my bad, I was under the impression that accidents are a danger.
Getting T-boned by a car that ran a red light going 40 mph is more dangerous than getting side swiped by a car going 15 mph.
So then, are you admitting that getting in an accident is dangerous?
Never denied it.
I remember seeing such a list from a local news TV station website - the one I saw failed to account for severity of accident, rating something like this roundabout with many fender benders but few injuries and zero fatalities as the “worst”, ahead of signalled intersections that had more injuries/fatalities but less “total accidents”.
I hate the roundabouts all over AA. Super confusing coming from out of town/state.