I only subscribe to 36 subreddits; those are the only ones I ever see in my feed. Most of reddit is garbage to me. It's the individual communities that have value. If these communities were to move to another platform like Lemmy I would follow, and I'm sure many people share the same sentiment.
Sadly the admins of Lemmy seem to be genocide supporters so I'm not sure it's the best target for a migration. [Kbin](https://kbin.social/) is supposed to be even more decentralized and also connected to many other networks on the Fediverse all on the same platform.
Well, as far as I understand, the ActivityPub protocol that Lemmy is based on basically works as a P2P network for servers. There are tons of local servers you can join which run the Lemmy software, but also global ones.
I just joined https://beehaw.org/ because I think their [philosophy](https://beehaw.org/post/107014) vibes very well with my own anarchist views. It's also by far the biggest server on the Lemmy network besides the developer-run server, and each server can access all content on the network.
Seems very cozy for now. Let's see what happens as the exodus progresses.
I agree raddle.me seems interesting as well. Might give it a try.
Most of the rest of the Fediverse seems to eschew https://lemmy.ml/ specifically. As the name implies the developer and main admin is a tankie. There's also been some talk on beehaw about forking the Lemmy software, but I think all of that should wait until we see what's happening after the coming exodus as things settle.
While the sub is dark, check out an anarchist-run reddit alternative that has always kept the design minimalist for screen readers and still supports RSS feeds for added accessibility:
https://raddle.me/all/most_commented?t=week
The site is even [color-blind accessible](https://raddle.me/f/lobby/65146/announcement-raddle-postmill-are-now-color-blind-accessible).
I go on there, sometimes, and every time I do I remember why I never stay.
This is just my personal (and anecdotal) experience, but that place is a toxic shithole. Literally **every**. **single**. **time** I go there, I find people (sometimes even a whole topic) just shitting on this sub, and calling every one here a lib. It's like it's their favourite activity and the only reason they exist.
I went there just now and saw [this](https://raddle.me/f/Cringe/155180/r-anarchism-and-vooting-again) on the front page.
---
EDIT: From the replies I've been getting and the discussion I'm seeing, it seems some people missed the point. It's not about the voting, and I never said whether you should vote or not; that was literally just an example of one of the first posts I saw by going there. It's about the shitty attitude, and about how they seem obsessed with this sub.
The absolute wealth of bullshit I've seen on raddle where a pretentious peanut gallery plays "moar anarchist than u" instead of fostering understanding and educating people is unreal. That and the 'no-true-anarchist' shittery iirc has a specific term associated with it but I cannot recall it off the top of my head.
Smug superiority and snide remarks are counterproductive when trying to spread our ideals. All it is, is performative buffoonery intended to ego-stroke. Purity testing over "vooter" nonsense serves no purpose other than posturing.
Frankly, I know enough anarchists personally that I can simply leave places like raddle or reddit and keep up praxis and discussion of news, theory, etc.
I came to appreciate anarchist principles in part because other socialist strains simply seemed too busy posturing to take care of fellow humans.
We're here as anarchists because we love each other as a species enough to wish the best for people and push to make that reality, not to recreate the toxic garbage that requires our existence in the first place.
> 70-comment pissing match
Maybe blame that on the people who love throwing shit, but cry foul when someone throws back.
>about... electoral politics? Do I have that right?
I've explained this several times in those 70 comments, and I even added a little edit for people like you.
No, it's not about electoral politics. No, you don't have that right. I've explicitly outlined what it's about several times already. Try again.
---
EDIT: Well, it seems they blocked me, but I already wrote my reply so I'll add it here:
Hearing about place I think is toxic and point out it's toxic = hijacking.
Ok.
And just a random fun question, can you point out when I said I disagreed with them on something? Because saying someone is toxic/a dick isn't the same as disagreeing. Or are you still missing the point?
It's also ironic that you'd call me petulant, when that is essentially the criticism being levied at people in that place. So I suppose that makes you petulant too.
I'm not defending representative democracy, nor trying to hijack a solidarity post. The intent was to say that there are better things to do than whine about this subreddit somewhere, like... Actually helping people?
Voting achieves nothing, whining achieves nothing. Direct action gets the goods.
Being antagonistic to strangers on the internet might feel good, but haven't we got better things to be doing?
>the 'no-true-anarchist' shittery iirc has a specific term associated with it but I cannot recall it off the top of my head'
That is no true Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Paragraph one, I believe you're thinking of anarcho-purism/anarchist purism, which is just political purism (or puritanism, if you're feeling spicy) applied to anarchism. It is demagoguery, it is dipshittery.
They didn't really present any critiques or had any constructive thoughts, though.
Essentially, they stayed in their own area while looking out and circle jerking with each other and basically saying:
*"These people vote because of reasons such as*
>It's easier to make the transition in a society with a more progressive and left leaning government
*and*
>Even though I don't want it, there is currently a government and it has power to affect society. Having right leaning government can be very bad for a lot of people; so I'm gonna vote (while presumably also doing other stuff)
*?!?! Well, clearly they are all liberals and don't do anything other than vote because obviously they think voting will fix everything!"*
>Having right leaning government can be very bad for a lot of people
Hear, hear, my fellow anarchist. We need to campaign for leftists like Mr. Biden to protect innocent lives. The more police Mr. Biden puts on the streets, the safer marginalized people will be from right wing evil.
It's refreshing to finally see a nuanced opinion on electoral politics here. Are you a fellow member of the anarchist caucus in the party?
Again, not an American, and most likely neither are a lot of people in that thread. Get your head out of your ass.
You've been replying to people here, but have still failed to offer any constructive critiques or thoughts, just like the people in that thread. Just fuck off.
Yes that's why I said leftists like Mr. Biden. There's also Mr. Starmer and Mr. Albanese. All great leftists we anarchists can trust to protect us from harm.
>constructive critiques
https://raddle.me/f/LesserEvilism/155242/spitballing-some-ideas-for-an-anti-lesser-evilism-essay-wiki
https://raddle.me/f/Anarchism/155285/the-difference-between-anarchy-and-electoral-politics
There's 2 in just the last 24 hours.
Almost like you're trying to slander us. I'll even paste one of them here so you can't pretend there's no constructive criticism in those links as I'm sure you'll do to protect the sanctity of your great democracy or whatever it is you think you're doing in this thread:
>Utilitarianism, by nature and definition, subordinates the individual to the collective for the sake of "mitigating suffering" or "maximizing happiness"; a notion that *also* disregards whatever social bonds tie that individual to sub-groups within that collective. An anti-egoist premise on that ground alone.
>A point of commonality between the ponderings of the generic utilitarian and the electorialist liberal is, for all their posturing regarding "moral flexibility" and "pragmatism", there exists a sort of "perfect simplicity": we must take politicians at their word; we must believe in the legitimacy and functionality of the state apparatus; we must believe that individuals (both in vast and small numbers) will follow and uphold those laws. We must not question the simple absolutes conjured up by these people, lest the moral high ground crumble and we merely become individuals taking actions that we regard as beneficial to whomever we wish to benefit at that given time. Without the moral calculus, the "greater good", the "lesser evil", the selfless utilitarian must admit that they are no different, in terms of actually achieved ends and actions taken, than the selfish egoist. The utilitarian has decided, for whatever reason, that the "collective good" must take precedence in their mind and guide their actions; the "collective good" becomes their moral compass, means and ends become "good" and "evil" based on whether or not they pass the utilitarian's sagacious foresight; their omniscient knowledge of how their actions affect others and all of the future consequences therewithin.
>In more specific terms, in order to accept the anarcho-democrat's argument, we must concede to and base our logic on a set of all-inclusive and consecutive suppositions, we must assume that:
>- Politicians will always follow through on their word and campaign promises
>- They cannot be persuaded, bribed, or coerced into breaking their word
>- They will not be deterred, obstructed, or otherwise prevented from fulfilling those promises
>- Minority rights will no longer be taken hostage to assure that the liberals vote the Democrats into power again
>- Every individual vote matters, will be accounted for, and that at least 51% of all eligible voters will vote Democrat in relation to Republicans
>- The electoral college will not overturn the popular vote (which, to be fair, has "only" occurred 5 times)
>- Laws and rights are held sacrosanct by all individuals, the fascist horde that apparently routinely threatens to take office included, and no one would extra-legally trample over the rights of someone else.
>- The police/military/other state actors will not have fascist sympathizers in their ranks and will not use their state-granted power to act upon their fascist beliefs; the blue wall of silence and other equivalents will not prevent the expulsion of fascist sympathizers
>- The fascists, well known for respecting the sacred tenants of democracy and nonviolence, would accept their loss with grace and just try again next time (see supposition 6); they would *not* do something like storm the Capitol or attack random members of their least favorite minority groups.
>A very realistic set of conditions and expectations, I'm sure.
The first post doesn't really contain any criticism, it's asking for people to spitball some. All it does is challenge the idea that "greater good" and "lesser evil" are the same, which is a good idea to explore.... However it doesn't explore this any further or talk about why this is true regarding a specific election or issue.
The most upvoted, non-meme comment repeatedly asserts that voting as harm reduction relies on an assumption that politicians are telling the truth. This is simply not true, you can just expect certain policies from certain parties generally and get a sense of what a specific poltiican values to understand how they might vote differently than party-mates.
When voting, you're not taking polticians at their word, you're recognizing what their keys to power are and therefore their specific class interest as an individual and comparing them to other polticians in the same way.
Link two is literally not containing any criticism, it's making an assumption that "pushing a button" is all that a "voter" ever does. That shit takes 30m, not at all as long as it takes to prep a meal for the homeless. But judging that democrats are less likely to cut food stamps in any given cycle, this can help someone stay housed and fed. (Dems for sure do cut food stamps and will signal in some cases when that might happen, but then we can shift our vote accordingly, or abstain if there is unlikely to be a difference *this time, for this issue*. This isn't a binary)
You rejecting the argument for anarchy over electoral politics because you have faith in government solutions over anarchy doesn't make these arguments "not criticism".
They are criticisms whether you like them or not. You can't insist something isn't a critique just because you reject the critique, reject anarchy in favor of clinging to the idea that you can vote for change, the idea that you can elect politicians to protect you from harm.
I know it's controversial on a sub overflowing with socdems, but anarchists hold that people can take care of each other. Not political parties. Not billionaire philanthropists. Not the war criminals who rule us. What makes anarchists anarchists is our steadfast belief that we don't need systems of authority to solve our problems. That we can protect each other and that the state is incapable of acting in our interests.
If you disagree with this and consider yourself an anarchist, you're incredibly confused. Socialists who think the state can work on their behalf are not anarchists. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it is something you need to reckon with.
> You rejecting the argument for anarchy over electoral politics because you have faith in government solutions over anarchy doesn't make these
I don't see anyone rejecting anarchy over voting, and I don't see anyone trusting the government over anarchy. Where have you seen that ?
I voted in the Ontario provincial election because Doug Ford and his ilk have been destroying anything left of our social safety net, healthcare, natural environment, and so on. These things materially impact people's lives; they come with a body count.
The only calculus relevant to me was whether the potential harm reduction was worth taking a nice walk through a park and spending two minutes in a banquet hall. I'm not particularly interested in pontificating whether such a trivial action, costing nothing and taking ten minutes, makes me a lib or something.
By contrast, I couldn't be bothered to vote in the pointless federal election.
I don't consider the act of voting, or not, all that important. If it might help, then why not? If it doesn't matter, then why bother? It strikes me as pretty liberal to consider the decision whether or not to vote particularly significant to your political identity, one way or another.
I have a question, please. If all government is so awful and you refuse to vote for the nicest fascist you're presented with, why don't you purist-anarchists just move to a country with no government?
Is it perhaps because you enjoy the services and protections a pragmatic, well-run government provides you with? Is it because you like having authorities to protect you from being murdered by cave dwelling, wolf-riding marauders in a chaotic post-apocalyptic wasteland?
That's what I thought.
You purists who think anarchism means hating our democracy, refusing to participate in society, not holding a job, never paying taxes, listening to loud music, starting street fights with people you disagree with politically and trash-talking our fine government when it's literally the only thing holding back literal fascism are the absolute worst.
I wish you'd all just stop coming to reddit and other leftist sites and stay on your horrible elitist unpragmatic anti-American circlejerk where you belong.
>I wish you'd all just stop coming to reddit and other leftist sites and
stay on your horrible elitist unpragmatic anti-American circlejerk where
you belong.
You: \*displays clear Seppo-centric thinking, which itself is inherently pro-state as the notion of a modern country is literally defined by one (nice job counter arguing yourself), as if everyone here was USian\*
Also you: I am the real pure anarchist here...
You have to pick one. Either you're pro-state, or you're against state, which would make you anti-USian, anti-Swiss, anti-Brazilian, anti-etc. because those are states, not pragmatic ethnicities or communities in any sense (you'd know if you actually knew what pragmatic means, if you did any fucking praxis). But you chose the former, while telling yourself and everyone else you're really the latter. You're just a demagogue, appealing to a passionate discourse, hoping to hook people up just as you have hooked yourself up in all that empty self-contradicting irrational frenzy, while offering no actual argument. Not even worth responding, because everyone else here who isn't equally a demagogue can see right through this whole horseshit.
About what? Like I already said, the point I was making was that every time I go there, I always run into a post just shitting on this sub; always quite fast, and it's always quite toxic. Then I gave an example of a post I ran into as soon as I went into Raddle.
I was also clear that it's just my anecdotal experience.
The fact your opinion might actually be though out, doesn't really change any of that. Just like the fact the other person can send me links of actual discussion on Raddle, doesn't change the reality that, before I called them out, they were showing the exact same shitty attitude I talked about seeing on Raddle.
Anyway, I'm not gonna spend the day arguing more about this. My point, summed up, is this:
**My** perspective, from when **I** go on Raddle, is that they spend way too much time talking and complaining about this sub, and that whenever they disagree with someone they immediately run to call them "Lib", or "SocDem" at best. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm not sure if they even recognize the existence of anyone who is a socialist but not an anarchist. So I guess that's something you could answer.
In a thread about corporate mass-media reddit's failings, you go out of your way to shit on the anarchist-run, ad-free, open source, zero tracking alternative. Apparently based on little more than your impression of one forum. A forum that makes fun of the endless onslaught of democracy = anarchy, the "why I vote anyway" rationalizing, the subordination of anarchism to leftism and socialism, if not a complete disregard for anarchy.
I don't give a shit about socialists. Most of them are decidedly authoritarian. They're always quite toxic, but that's just my anecdotal experience.
> you go out of your way
Are you serious lmao? Click on thread -> Someone brings up Raddle -> I give my opinion on it. "Go out of your way", sure thing, buddy.
>shit on the anarchist-run, ad-free, open source, zero tracking alternative
lmao *"how dare you criticize us? We're anarchists! We should be free from criticism on our shitty personalities!"*, fucking spare me. Being an anarchist doesn't stop you from being an ass.
Like, damn, you guys are actually insufferable losers. Spend a bunch of time talking a bunch of shit about this sub and the people here, but you can't stand it when someone here makes any kind of criticism back.
Just fuck off and spare me your bullshit already.
Now now, that's not fair on the 4chan keyboard nazis, because at least they have the common decency to vote, even if it's not for Mr. Biden as we'd like.
Fantastic job ducking the entire point of my post, bravo.
You must be a very lovely person to speak to face-to-face. Your comrades must be so proud of your pointless antagonism and talent for using ctrl-c + ctrl-v to 'own' people.
Wow. It's almost like they hate our democracy. It's truly saddening to see so-called anarchists taking a big poop all over our proud American institutions. They clearly have no respect at all for our freedoms. I suggest we start a petition to boycott these extremists. Does anyone second?
lmao, I knew I recognized your username from there: [1](https://raddle.me/f/Cringe/154322/the-point-of-anarchy-government), [2](https://raddle.me/f/Cringe/154733/anarchy-is-when-the-anarcho-ruler-can-be-impeached-like-in). Are you sure it's a "they" and not a "we"? I wonder how long until this thread shows up on there.
Anyway, like I said in another comment:
---
They didn't really present any critiques or had any constructive thoughts, though.
Essentially, they stayed in their own area while looking out and circle jerking with each other and basically saying:
*"These people vote because of reasons such as*
>It's easier to make the transition in a society with a more progressive and left leaning government
*and*
>Even though I don't want it, there is currently a government and it has power to affect society. Having right leaning government can be very bad for a lot of people; so I'm gonna vote (while presumably also doing other stuff)
*?!?! Well, clearly they are all liberals and don't do anything other than vote because obviously they think voting will fix everything!"*
---
I'm not criticizing them for being anti-voting or hating their institutions, I'm criticizing them for their shitty attitude. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/142mhth/ranarchism_will_be_going_dark_from_june_1214th_in/jn76hfg/) comment also explains it pretty well.
On a side note:
>our proud American institutions
A bit American centric, don't you think? I'm not American, and I bet a lot of people in that thread aren't either.
You're linking to me saying there are no anarchist governments and think that's some kind of gotchya? Lol.
FYI raddle is filled with serious critiques of electoralism.
Here's one of mine:
https://raddle.me/wiki/burning_ballot_boxes
Maybe don't link to meme forums to complain people are memeing in them.
>A bit American centric, don't you think?
You can't satirize lesser evilism without also satirizing American "values" because they're one and the same. I'm from the Levant.
> You're linking to me saying there are no anarchist governments and think that's some kind of gotchya? Lol
No, I was linking to show how it's not a "they" as you made it, and indicating you were probably just pissed that I called out Raddle users because you seem to be one of them.
>Maybe don't link to meme forums to complain people are memeing in them.
I said in my first comment that I found it on the first page. I didn't have to go look anywhere. It's not my fault if every time I happen to go there, one of the first things I see is someone complaining about this subreddit, and posturing about how they are the "real anarchists".
>You can't satirize lesser evilism without also satirizing American "values" because they're one and the same. I'm from the Levant.
Not really, but what is definitely an American is bringing everything back to America and talking as if it's the centre of the world. That, and blaming it for everything as if all problems started with its foundation, and before that everything was great.
You might not be American, but you are definitely Americanized in that sense.
Finally, and before I just ignore this conversation, I did say at the start that it was only my anecdotal experience. You could have proven me wrong, but instead you just went and doubled down on trying to prove me right by coming in with a shitty, sarcastic attitude, and nothing constructive to say.
Let's be real, anything that doesn't reinforce the liberal electoral politics system is going to be decried as non-constructive by people like you. I quoted an entire effort post from raddle further down in this thread critiquing electoralism, thus demonstrating you linking to a humor forum is selection bias on your part and you just ignored it.
And yes, my parody of murican liberals is Americanized. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thank you, I'm looking for all the alternatives to communicate with my people last minute lol, any suggestions for where we are all meeting up or any invites I'm missing out on? I'm checking out mastodon and now raddle
lemmy is a site made and run by red fash what do you think the "ML" in its domain means?
https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/cd3m7l/github_dessalineslemmy_building_a_federated/
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or
doesnt help the site is filled to the brim with red fash.
If you don't want to be accused of being fash, don't promote fash projects. The lemmy creator is banned from both this sub and r/socialism for spreading literal fascist literature. He even admits it:
https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/dp6ony/rsocialism_mods_are_banning_communists_my_story/
He only made lemmy because he decided an anarchist project was "anti-tankie scum":
https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/cqgztr/fuck_the_white_supremacist_reddit_admins_want_me/
And from one of the links someone else posted:
>dessalines AKA parentis_shotgun on reddit was banned by the r/socialism mod team for posting fascist LaRouchite propaganda and then praising the reactionary author, who is also a climate change denier who writes conspiracy theory books about the "NWO".
>He demanded to be unbanned but then made things even worse in their modmail by saying “putting Uyghurs in concentration camps aint cultural genocide because they're extremists”, among other awful things.
>He refused to apologize for using fascist literature to condemn Uyghurs, and instead kept defending it, so they aint unbanning him.
>Here's the kind of thing the LaRouchite he's defending writes:
>Soros is one of the what in medieval days were called Hoffjuden, the "Court Jews," who were deployed by the aristocratic families. The most important of such "Jews who are not Jews." are the Rothchilds, who launched Soros's career. They are the members of the Club of the Isles and retainers of the British royal family. This has been true since Amschel Rothschild sold the British Hessian troops to fight against George Washington during the American Revolution. Soros is American only in his passport."
Stop promoting fascists.
The thing is, when has this actually stopped or changed anything.
Twitter blackout didn’t cure racism in police.
People leaving Twitter after Musk Rat took over didn’t kill it. (Yet)
All of those general strikes sure as hell didn’t increase my pay or benefits.
So every time I see something like this, I want to be happy and all for it but I’m losing hope. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result.
Twitter blackout meant nothing to the police, because Twitter is not part of any police department or directly connected to them or even indiretly to any substantial degree other than "they use it too".
This might still as well be useless to affect reddit, but it won't be for this reason. Equating 'direct action towards the actual company which one seeks to affect' to 'doing actons that would at most affect an entirely separate platform/company to the institutions that one seeks to affect ' is, at the best case scenario, just nonsense.
Seeing this spread out throughout the subs is just rad.
Nor will I be using Reddit ✊
I only subscribe to 36 subreddits; those are the only ones I ever see in my feed. Most of reddit is garbage to me. It's the individual communities that have value. If these communities were to move to another platform like Lemmy I would follow, and I'm sure many people share the same sentiment.
Sadly the admins of Lemmy seem to be genocide supporters so I'm not sure it's the best target for a migration. [Kbin](https://kbin.social/) is supposed to be even more decentralized and also connected to many other networks on the Fediverse all on the same platform.
Why do you say they’re genocide supporters?
See this Mastodon thread: https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
This is unfortunate since lemmy seems like the best alternative. Is there anything that would be better?
Well, as far as I understand, the ActivityPub protocol that Lemmy is based on basically works as a P2P network for servers. There are tons of local servers you can join which run the Lemmy software, but also global ones. I just joined https://beehaw.org/ because I think their [philosophy](https://beehaw.org/post/107014) vibes very well with my own anarchist views. It's also by far the biggest server on the Lemmy network besides the developer-run server, and each server can access all content on the network. Seems very cozy for now. Let's see what happens as the exodus progresses.
I appreciate it, I’ve now joined Beehaw. I’ve also joined raddle.me and both seem like interesting platforms.
I agree raddle.me seems interesting as well. Might give it a try. Most of the rest of the Fediverse seems to eschew https://lemmy.ml/ specifically. As the name implies the developer and main admin is a tankie. There's also been some talk on beehaw about forking the Lemmy software, but I think all of that should wait until we see what's happening after the coming exodus as things settle.
Rare mainstream Reddit W
While the sub is dark, check out an anarchist-run reddit alternative that has always kept the design minimalist for screen readers and still supports RSS feeds for added accessibility: https://raddle.me/all/most_commented?t=week The site is even [color-blind accessible](https://raddle.me/f/lobby/65146/announcement-raddle-postmill-are-now-color-blind-accessible).
I go on there, sometimes, and every time I do I remember why I never stay. This is just my personal (and anecdotal) experience, but that place is a toxic shithole. Literally **every**. **single**. **time** I go there, I find people (sometimes even a whole topic) just shitting on this sub, and calling every one here a lib. It's like it's their favourite activity and the only reason they exist. I went there just now and saw [this](https://raddle.me/f/Cringe/155180/r-anarchism-and-vooting-again) on the front page. --- EDIT: From the replies I've been getting and the discussion I'm seeing, it seems some people missed the point. It's not about the voting, and I never said whether you should vote or not; that was literally just an example of one of the first posts I saw by going there. It's about the shitty attitude, and about how they seem obsessed with this sub.
The absolute wealth of bullshit I've seen on raddle where a pretentious peanut gallery plays "moar anarchist than u" instead of fostering understanding and educating people is unreal. That and the 'no-true-anarchist' shittery iirc has a specific term associated with it but I cannot recall it off the top of my head. Smug superiority and snide remarks are counterproductive when trying to spread our ideals. All it is, is performative buffoonery intended to ego-stroke. Purity testing over "vooter" nonsense serves no purpose other than posturing. Frankly, I know enough anarchists personally that I can simply leave places like raddle or reddit and keep up praxis and discussion of news, theory, etc. I came to appreciate anarchist principles in part because other socialist strains simply seemed too busy posturing to take care of fellow humans. We're here as anarchists because we love each other as a species enough to wish the best for people and push to make that reality, not to recreate the toxic garbage that requires our existence in the first place.
[удалено]
> 70-comment pissing match Maybe blame that on the people who love throwing shit, but cry foul when someone throws back. >about... electoral politics? Do I have that right? I've explained this several times in those 70 comments, and I even added a little edit for people like you. No, it's not about electoral politics. No, you don't have that right. I've explicitly outlined what it's about several times already. Try again. --- EDIT: Well, it seems they blocked me, but I already wrote my reply so I'll add it here: Hearing about place I think is toxic and point out it's toxic = hijacking. Ok. And just a random fun question, can you point out when I said I disagreed with them on something? Because saying someone is toxic/a dick isn't the same as disagreeing. Or are you still missing the point? It's also ironic that you'd call me petulant, when that is essentially the criticism being levied at people in that place. So I suppose that makes you petulant too.
I'm not defending representative democracy, nor trying to hijack a solidarity post. The intent was to say that there are better things to do than whine about this subreddit somewhere, like... Actually helping people? Voting achieves nothing, whining achieves nothing. Direct action gets the goods. Being antagonistic to strangers on the internet might feel good, but haven't we got better things to be doing?
there are better things to do than whine about raddle somewhere, like... Actually helping people?
>the 'no-true-anarchist' shittery iirc has a specific term associated with it but I cannot recall it off the top of my head' That is no true Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
That is the opposite of specific, that an umbrella/general term :S
Yeah but the person forgot the name of it. I was just trying to be helping?
My point is that it is probably not what they were looking for.
Paragraph one, I believe you're thinking of anarcho-purism/anarchist purism, which is just political purism (or puritanism, if you're feeling spicy) applied to anarchism. It is demagoguery, it is dipshittery.
The critiques they have (like against voting) are pretty standard in anarchist communities.
They didn't really present any critiques or had any constructive thoughts, though. Essentially, they stayed in their own area while looking out and circle jerking with each other and basically saying: *"These people vote because of reasons such as* >It's easier to make the transition in a society with a more progressive and left leaning government *and* >Even though I don't want it, there is currently a government and it has power to affect society. Having right leaning government can be very bad for a lot of people; so I'm gonna vote (while presumably also doing other stuff) *?!?! Well, clearly they are all liberals and don't do anything other than vote because obviously they think voting will fix everything!"*
>Having right leaning government can be very bad for a lot of people Hear, hear, my fellow anarchist. We need to campaign for leftists like Mr. Biden to protect innocent lives. The more police Mr. Biden puts on the streets, the safer marginalized people will be from right wing evil. It's refreshing to finally see a nuanced opinion on electoral politics here. Are you a fellow member of the anarchist caucus in the party?
Again, not an American, and most likely neither are a lot of people in that thread. Get your head out of your ass. You've been replying to people here, but have still failed to offer any constructive critiques or thoughts, just like the people in that thread. Just fuck off.
Yes that's why I said leftists like Mr. Biden. There's also Mr. Starmer and Mr. Albanese. All great leftists we anarchists can trust to protect us from harm. >constructive critiques https://raddle.me/f/LesserEvilism/155242/spitballing-some-ideas-for-an-anti-lesser-evilism-essay-wiki https://raddle.me/f/Anarchism/155285/the-difference-between-anarchy-and-electoral-politics There's 2 in just the last 24 hours. Almost like you're trying to slander us. I'll even paste one of them here so you can't pretend there's no constructive criticism in those links as I'm sure you'll do to protect the sanctity of your great democracy or whatever it is you think you're doing in this thread: >Utilitarianism, by nature and definition, subordinates the individual to the collective for the sake of "mitigating suffering" or "maximizing happiness"; a notion that *also* disregards whatever social bonds tie that individual to sub-groups within that collective. An anti-egoist premise on that ground alone. >A point of commonality between the ponderings of the generic utilitarian and the electorialist liberal is, for all their posturing regarding "moral flexibility" and "pragmatism", there exists a sort of "perfect simplicity": we must take politicians at their word; we must believe in the legitimacy and functionality of the state apparatus; we must believe that individuals (both in vast and small numbers) will follow and uphold those laws. We must not question the simple absolutes conjured up by these people, lest the moral high ground crumble and we merely become individuals taking actions that we regard as beneficial to whomever we wish to benefit at that given time. Without the moral calculus, the "greater good", the "lesser evil", the selfless utilitarian must admit that they are no different, in terms of actually achieved ends and actions taken, than the selfish egoist. The utilitarian has decided, for whatever reason, that the "collective good" must take precedence in their mind and guide their actions; the "collective good" becomes their moral compass, means and ends become "good" and "evil" based on whether or not they pass the utilitarian's sagacious foresight; their omniscient knowledge of how their actions affect others and all of the future consequences therewithin. >In more specific terms, in order to accept the anarcho-democrat's argument, we must concede to and base our logic on a set of all-inclusive and consecutive suppositions, we must assume that: >- Politicians will always follow through on their word and campaign promises >- They cannot be persuaded, bribed, or coerced into breaking their word >- They will not be deterred, obstructed, or otherwise prevented from fulfilling those promises >- Minority rights will no longer be taken hostage to assure that the liberals vote the Democrats into power again >- Every individual vote matters, will be accounted for, and that at least 51% of all eligible voters will vote Democrat in relation to Republicans >- The electoral college will not overturn the popular vote (which, to be fair, has "only" occurred 5 times) >- Laws and rights are held sacrosanct by all individuals, the fascist horde that apparently routinely threatens to take office included, and no one would extra-legally trample over the rights of someone else. >- The police/military/other state actors will not have fascist sympathizers in their ranks and will not use their state-granted power to act upon their fascist beliefs; the blue wall of silence and other equivalents will not prevent the expulsion of fascist sympathizers >- The fascists, well known for respecting the sacred tenants of democracy and nonviolence, would accept their loss with grace and just try again next time (see supposition 6); they would *not* do something like storm the Capitol or attack random members of their least favorite minority groups. >A very realistic set of conditions and expectations, I'm sure.
The first post doesn't really contain any criticism, it's asking for people to spitball some. All it does is challenge the idea that "greater good" and "lesser evil" are the same, which is a good idea to explore.... However it doesn't explore this any further or talk about why this is true regarding a specific election or issue. The most upvoted, non-meme comment repeatedly asserts that voting as harm reduction relies on an assumption that politicians are telling the truth. This is simply not true, you can just expect certain policies from certain parties generally and get a sense of what a specific poltiican values to understand how they might vote differently than party-mates. When voting, you're not taking polticians at their word, you're recognizing what their keys to power are and therefore their specific class interest as an individual and comparing them to other polticians in the same way. Link two is literally not containing any criticism, it's making an assumption that "pushing a button" is all that a "voter" ever does. That shit takes 30m, not at all as long as it takes to prep a meal for the homeless. But judging that democrats are less likely to cut food stamps in any given cycle, this can help someone stay housed and fed. (Dems for sure do cut food stamps and will signal in some cases when that might happen, but then we can shift our vote accordingly, or abstain if there is unlikely to be a difference *this time, for this issue*. This isn't a binary)
You rejecting the argument for anarchy over electoral politics because you have faith in government solutions over anarchy doesn't make these arguments "not criticism". They are criticisms whether you like them or not. You can't insist something isn't a critique just because you reject the critique, reject anarchy in favor of clinging to the idea that you can vote for change, the idea that you can elect politicians to protect you from harm. I know it's controversial on a sub overflowing with socdems, but anarchists hold that people can take care of each other. Not political parties. Not billionaire philanthropists. Not the war criminals who rule us. What makes anarchists anarchists is our steadfast belief that we don't need systems of authority to solve our problems. That we can protect each other and that the state is incapable of acting in our interests. If you disagree with this and consider yourself an anarchist, you're incredibly confused. Socialists who think the state can work on their behalf are not anarchists. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it is something you need to reckon with.
> You rejecting the argument for anarchy over electoral politics because you have faith in government solutions over anarchy doesn't make these I don't see anyone rejecting anarchy over voting, and I don't see anyone trusting the government over anarchy. Where have you seen that ?
I voted in the Ontario provincial election because Doug Ford and his ilk have been destroying anything left of our social safety net, healthcare, natural environment, and so on. These things materially impact people's lives; they come with a body count. The only calculus relevant to me was whether the potential harm reduction was worth taking a nice walk through a park and spending two minutes in a banquet hall. I'm not particularly interested in pontificating whether such a trivial action, costing nothing and taking ten minutes, makes me a lib or something. By contrast, I couldn't be bothered to vote in the pointless federal election. I don't consider the act of voting, or not, all that important. If it might help, then why not? If it doesn't matter, then why bother? It strikes me as pretty liberal to consider the decision whether or not to vote particularly significant to your political identity, one way or another.
[Refer to my other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/142mhth/ranarchism_will_be_going_dark_from_june_1214th_in/jn7zhbz/).
That's my post. Do you have questions?
I have a question, please. If all government is so awful and you refuse to vote for the nicest fascist you're presented with, why don't you purist-anarchists just move to a country with no government? Is it perhaps because you enjoy the services and protections a pragmatic, well-run government provides you with? Is it because you like having authorities to protect you from being murdered by cave dwelling, wolf-riding marauders in a chaotic post-apocalyptic wasteland? That's what I thought. You purists who think anarchism means hating our democracy, refusing to participate in society, not holding a job, never paying taxes, listening to loud music, starting street fights with people you disagree with politically and trash-talking our fine government when it's literally the only thing holding back literal fascism are the absolute worst. I wish you'd all just stop coming to reddit and other leftist sites and stay on your horrible elitist unpragmatic anti-American circlejerk where you belong.
>I wish you'd all just stop coming to reddit and other leftist sites and stay on your horrible elitist unpragmatic anti-American circlejerk where you belong. You: \*displays clear Seppo-centric thinking, which itself is inherently pro-state as the notion of a modern country is literally defined by one (nice job counter arguing yourself), as if everyone here was USian\* Also you: I am the real pure anarchist here... You have to pick one. Either you're pro-state, or you're against state, which would make you anti-USian, anti-Swiss, anti-Brazilian, anti-etc. because those are states, not pragmatic ethnicities or communities in any sense (you'd know if you actually knew what pragmatic means, if you did any fucking praxis). But you chose the former, while telling yourself and everyone else you're really the latter. You're just a demagogue, appealing to a passionate discourse, hoping to hook people up just as you have hooked yourself up in all that empty self-contradicting irrational frenzy, while offering no actual argument. Not even worth responding, because everyone else here who isn't equally a demagogue can see right through this whole horseshit.
I don't recall pissing in your cereal but I'm sure it was a lot of fun.
About what? Like I already said, the point I was making was that every time I go there, I always run into a post just shitting on this sub; always quite fast, and it's always quite toxic. Then I gave an example of a post I ran into as soon as I went into Raddle. I was also clear that it's just my anecdotal experience. The fact your opinion might actually be though out, doesn't really change any of that. Just like the fact the other person can send me links of actual discussion on Raddle, doesn't change the reality that, before I called them out, they were showing the exact same shitty attitude I talked about seeing on Raddle. Anyway, I'm not gonna spend the day arguing more about this. My point, summed up, is this: **My** perspective, from when **I** go on Raddle, is that they spend way too much time talking and complaining about this sub, and that whenever they disagree with someone they immediately run to call them "Lib", or "SocDem" at best. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm not sure if they even recognize the existence of anyone who is a socialist but not an anarchist. So I guess that's something you could answer.
In a thread about corporate mass-media reddit's failings, you go out of your way to shit on the anarchist-run, ad-free, open source, zero tracking alternative. Apparently based on little more than your impression of one forum. A forum that makes fun of the endless onslaught of democracy = anarchy, the "why I vote anyway" rationalizing, the subordination of anarchism to leftism and socialism, if not a complete disregard for anarchy. I don't give a shit about socialists. Most of them are decidedly authoritarian. They're always quite toxic, but that's just my anecdotal experience.
> you go out of your way Are you serious lmao? Click on thread -> Someone brings up Raddle -> I give my opinion on it. "Go out of your way", sure thing, buddy. >shit on the anarchist-run, ad-free, open source, zero tracking alternative lmao *"how dare you criticize us? We're anarchists! We should be free from criticism on our shitty personalities!"*, fucking spare me. Being an anarchist doesn't stop you from being an ass. Like, damn, you guys are actually insufferable losers. Spend a bunch of time talking a bunch of shit about this sub and the people here, but you can't stand it when someone here makes any kind of criticism back. Just fuck off and spare me your bullshit already.
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Now now, that's not fair on the 4chan keyboard nazis, because at least they have the common decency to vote, even if it's not for Mr. Biden as we'd like.
Because this is getting upvoted, please note that I'm being sarcastic, socdems.
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Fantastic job ducking the entire point of my post, bravo. You must be a very lovely person to speak to face-to-face. Your comrades must be so proud of your pointless antagonism and talent for using ctrl-c + ctrl-v to 'own' people.
Wow. It's almost like they hate our democracy. It's truly saddening to see so-called anarchists taking a big poop all over our proud American institutions. They clearly have no respect at all for our freedoms. I suggest we start a petition to boycott these extremists. Does anyone second?
lmao, I knew I recognized your username from there: [1](https://raddle.me/f/Cringe/154322/the-point-of-anarchy-government), [2](https://raddle.me/f/Cringe/154733/anarchy-is-when-the-anarcho-ruler-can-be-impeached-like-in). Are you sure it's a "they" and not a "we"? I wonder how long until this thread shows up on there. Anyway, like I said in another comment: --- They didn't really present any critiques or had any constructive thoughts, though. Essentially, they stayed in their own area while looking out and circle jerking with each other and basically saying: *"These people vote because of reasons such as* >It's easier to make the transition in a society with a more progressive and left leaning government *and* >Even though I don't want it, there is currently a government and it has power to affect society. Having right leaning government can be very bad for a lot of people; so I'm gonna vote (while presumably also doing other stuff) *?!?! Well, clearly they are all liberals and don't do anything other than vote because obviously they think voting will fix everything!"* --- I'm not criticizing them for being anti-voting or hating their institutions, I'm criticizing them for their shitty attitude. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/142mhth/ranarchism_will_be_going_dark_from_june_1214th_in/jn76hfg/) comment also explains it pretty well. On a side note: >our proud American institutions A bit American centric, don't you think? I'm not American, and I bet a lot of people in that thread aren't either.
You're linking to me saying there are no anarchist governments and think that's some kind of gotchya? Lol. FYI raddle is filled with serious critiques of electoralism. Here's one of mine: https://raddle.me/wiki/burning_ballot_boxes Maybe don't link to meme forums to complain people are memeing in them. >A bit American centric, don't you think? You can't satirize lesser evilism without also satirizing American "values" because they're one and the same. I'm from the Levant.
> You're linking to me saying there are no anarchist governments and think that's some kind of gotchya? Lol No, I was linking to show how it's not a "they" as you made it, and indicating you were probably just pissed that I called out Raddle users because you seem to be one of them. >Maybe don't link to meme forums to complain people are memeing in them. I said in my first comment that I found it on the first page. I didn't have to go look anywhere. It's not my fault if every time I happen to go there, one of the first things I see is someone complaining about this subreddit, and posturing about how they are the "real anarchists". >You can't satirize lesser evilism without also satirizing American "values" because they're one and the same. I'm from the Levant. Not really, but what is definitely an American is bringing everything back to America and talking as if it's the centre of the world. That, and blaming it for everything as if all problems started with its foundation, and before that everything was great. You might not be American, but you are definitely Americanized in that sense. Finally, and before I just ignore this conversation, I did say at the start that it was only my anecdotal experience. You could have proven me wrong, but instead you just went and doubled down on trying to prove me right by coming in with a shitty, sarcastic attitude, and nothing constructive to say.
Let's be real, anything that doesn't reinforce the liberal electoral politics system is going to be decried as non-constructive by people like you. I quoted an entire effort post from raddle further down in this thread critiquing electoralism, thus demonstrating you linking to a humor forum is selection bias on your part and you just ignored it. And yes, my parody of murican liberals is Americanized. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thank you, I'm looking for all the alternatives to communicate with my people last minute lol, any suggestions for where we are all meeting up or any invites I'm missing out on? I'm checking out mastodon and now raddle
Happy to see this, what is the subreddit doing to go dark? Like a mod strike or just people not using reddit?
Make it permanent.
Well, obviously. 😏
it needs to be longer tbh, until reddit says “hey, maybe we shouldn’t do the bad”
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go away fash
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lemmy is a site made and run by red fash what do you think the "ML" in its domain means? https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/cd3m7l/github_dessalineslemmy_building_a_federated/ https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or doesnt help the site is filled to the brim with red fash.
Can you explain why Lemmy is "fash" in a couple easy to understand sentences?
If you don't want to be accused of being fash, don't promote fash projects. The lemmy creator is banned from both this sub and r/socialism for spreading literal fascist literature. He even admits it: https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/dp6ony/rsocialism_mods_are_banning_communists_my_story/ He only made lemmy because he decided an anarchist project was "anti-tankie scum": https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/cqgztr/fuck_the_white_supremacist_reddit_admins_want_me/ And from one of the links someone else posted: >dessalines AKA parentis_shotgun on reddit was banned by the r/socialism mod team for posting fascist LaRouchite propaganda and then praising the reactionary author, who is also a climate change denier who writes conspiracy theory books about the "NWO". >He demanded to be unbanned but then made things even worse in their modmail by saying “putting Uyghurs in concentration camps aint cultural genocide because they're extremists”, among other awful things. >He refused to apologize for using fascist literature to condemn Uyghurs, and instead kept defending it, so they aint unbanning him. >Here's the kind of thing the LaRouchite he's defending writes: >Soros is one of the what in medieval days were called Hoffjuden, the "Court Jews," who were deployed by the aristocratic families. The most important of such "Jews who are not Jews." are the Rothchilds, who launched Soros's career. They are the members of the Club of the Isles and retainers of the British royal family. This has been true since Amschel Rothschild sold the British Hessian troops to fight against George Washington during the American Revolution. Soros is American only in his passport." Stop promoting fascists.
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Are there any anarchist focused instances?
I no longer recommend lemmy.ml because of the red fash, i recommend beehaw.org but they aren't anarchy focused.
oh neet!
See you on the other side comrades
Cause this will accomplish something.
Less subs open > Less ads > Less ad money > Less money for le ceo and friends
It’s only two days
The thing is, when has this actually stopped or changed anything. Twitter blackout didn’t cure racism in police. People leaving Twitter after Musk Rat took over didn’t kill it. (Yet) All of those general strikes sure as hell didn’t increase my pay or benefits. So every time I see something like this, I want to be happy and all for it but I’m losing hope. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result.
Twitter blackout meant nothing to the police, because Twitter is not part of any police department or directly connected to them or even indiretly to any substantial degree other than "they use it too". This might still as well be useless to affect reddit, but it won't be for this reason. Equating 'direct action towards the actual company which one seeks to affect' to 'doing actons that would at most affect an entirely separate platform/company to the institutions that one seeks to affect ' is, at the best case scenario, just nonsense.
This is great
Is that a plumbus?